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2006-07-24 Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Hizballah Brings Iwo Jima Tactics to Baffle Israeli Forces
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Posted by Steve 2006-07-24 08:19|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [6486 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Burn the goddam vegetation with incendiaries. Stop pussyfooting around, Israel.
Posted by Apostate 2006-07-24 08:48||   2006-07-24 08:48|| Front Page Top

#2 Nape.
Posted by RD 2006-07-24 09:09||   2006-07-24 09:09|| Front Page Top

#3 The Marines at Iwo didn't have air fuel bombs. The heavier gas will naturally go into tunnels and bunkers.

Hey, Ackmed, what's that strange smell?

*Flash Bang*
Posted by Omeamble Huporong4781 2006-07-24 09:21||   2006-07-24 09:21|| Front Page Top

#4 Since a lot of the world would get their panties wadded over flame throwers and napalm such as were used in WWII, Fuel-Air Explosives [FAE]might be the answer to these tunnels and camo and whatever Japanese tactics Hizballah has adopted.
Posted by JohnQC 2006-07-24 09:38||   2006-07-24 09:38|| Front Page Top

#5 Or ground penetrating radar etc.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2006-07-24 09:46||   2006-07-24 09:46|| Front Page Top

#6 "Since a lot of the world would get their panties wadded over flame throwers and napalm such as were used in WWII,"
Hizbollah are using WWII rockets with ball bearings.
Besides, I seem to remember, that Monty Python had a way to find camouflaged soldiers and blow them up.
Posted by plainslow 2006-07-24 09:55||   2006-07-24 09:55|| Front Page Top

#7 Dogs and D-9s.
Posted by mrp 2006-07-24 10:15||   2006-07-24 10:15|| Front Page Top

#8 Hezbollah is not using WWII rockets. They stopped making BM13 rockets 50 years ago, stopped making the rockets themselves 30 years ago. What Hezbollah is using are the FROG 3 and FROG 5 missiles in the 122mm and the 220 mm range. Those do come in single rail launchers and in towable launchers.

Katyushas are 132mm and have never, repeat, never had a single rail launcher.

Hezbollah is not using WWII technology. They are using as modern weapons as can be had.
Posted by badanov 2006-07-24 11:06||]">[]  2006-07-24 11:06|| Front Page Top

#9 And I didn't know the Japanese fired artillery on civilians...
Posted by badanov 2006-07-24 11:10||]">[]  2006-07-24 11:10|| Front Page Top

#10 Yeah, the international force is a great idea. Just like the last time they tried it in Southern Lebanon. Hizb grew a national forest right under the force's noses---only this time it wasn't cedars, it was rockets, thousands of 'em.

A ceasefire would be a disaster for Israel. The cancer that is Hizb'Allah has metasticized into the whole of Lebanon. To get rid of the cancer, the patient may die, but that is what happens when this plague on humanity is left to grow for 20 years. Yeah, the UN has done a great job---of enabling terrorists. They are going to get us all killed.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2006-07-24 11:14||   2006-07-24 11:14|| Front Page Top

#11 Also, thermal imaging was not available to the the Marines at Iwo Jima, nor were M203 grenade launchers or SMAWs with thermobaric warheads. There is a lot of good and very nasty equipment in the Western arsenal that can be used against entrenched positions. However, Debka got one point right : clearing tunnels does mean you will lose people, and that is Hiz b'Allah's one ace in this whole war - the Israelis' aversion to taking casualties.
Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-07-24 11:56||   2006-07-24 11:56|| Front Page Top

#12 And #9, just ask the Chinese about the Imperial Japanese Army's tactics regarding civilian populations - Nanking comes to mind.
Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-07-24 11:57||   2006-07-24 11:57|| Front Page Top

#13 And I didn't know the Japanese fired artillery on civilians...

It's not that but the tunnels and camo and rockets in general, that are reminiscent of Iwo Jima.
Posted by J. D. Lux 2006-07-24 11:57||   2006-07-24 11:57|| Front Page Top

#14 Since we can see that this is the Iranian military producing and co-ordinating this campaign, a decision must be made. This is a theatre warzone. Nothing can stop a dug in enemy but troops who painfully take every yard of turf. Recall the Pacific campaigns where days and days of aerial bombardment by aircraft, followed by days of bombardment by our big battleships and cruisers really did very little damage to the enemy who used tunnels and caves for protection. Only troops blasting and sealing tunnels, flamethrowers, napalm, etc. cleared these tunnels. The fact that they've used these ceasefires to implement these dug in positions and are using IED's which literally disintegrate the Merkava tanks indicates Iranian military tactics. There will be leadership required here. Can Bush provide it ? I think Israeli military simply does not have the manpower to do this. When they mobilize a large percentage of their populace for duty, the economy takes a major hit. This is not sustainable for long periods of time. This slow bleeding of our troops and capital is not wise. This needs to be accelerated and finished.
Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-07-24 12:25||   2006-07-24 12:25|| Front Page Top

#15 Couldn't the Israelis just find the entrances and seal them with concrete?
Posted by Apostate 2006-07-24 12:25||   2006-07-24 12:25|| Front Page Top

#16 We have much better stuff for dealing with caves and tunnels nowdays.
Burn baby, burn!
Posted by DarthVader 2006-07-24 12:31||   2006-07-24 12:31|| Front Page Top

#17 The sealing argument sounds good on paper, but won't work in real life. A well designed tunnel system will have lots of alternate openings. It may have tunnel branches that are dug within a few feet of the surface that can dug be dug out in an emergency. Ventilation shafts can also be widened in an emergency.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-24 12:44||   2006-07-24 12:44|| Front Page Top

#18 My point is that the Japanese were at Iwo Jima to hold territory. Hezbollah is there to kill Jews. Japanese war crimes against the Chinese and other civilians notwithstanding. that is a tremendous difference.
Posted by badanov 2006-07-24 12:58||]">[]  2006-07-24 12:58|| Front Page Top

#19 DEBKA is not a news source. As for this statement:

"DEBKAfile’s military analysts say that the way the Israel-Hizballah war has been prosecuted up until Monday, July 24, is more likely to bring Nassrallah closer to his war objectives than Olmert."

I disagree. I believe Israel has started down the road of reducing the missile threat in a way that keeps Israeli military casualties to a minimum. Yes, you are going to take casualties when clearing people from fortified positions but once that is done, it is relatively easy to prevent reinfiltration. Once the civilian occupants are evacuated, you simply hammer anything that moves toward the town. At that point you have destroyed the weapons stores in the area and are preventing any reinfiltration. The troops are then free to move on to the next area to be cleared or pull back to a safe location for rest. I posted my own speculation on what I think is going on at my blog.
Posted by crosspatch 2006-07-24 13:07||]">[]  2006-07-24 13:07|| Front Page Top

#20 Just fill the tunnels with Water, or Nitrogen or C01
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2006-07-24 13:10||   2006-07-24 13:10|| Front Page Top

#21 I suggested yesterday they use propane followed by oxygen.
Posted by crosspatch 2006-07-24 13:11||]">[]  2006-07-24 13:11|| Front Page Top

#22 Can those little bomb disposal robots be equipped with flame throwers? You wouldn't even need to expose trrops to the direct line of fire out of the bunkers. They just escort them up and remote flame them to start the clear. Might save on a few casualties trying to clear the bunkers. And would also give the Imams something to do in trying to figure out if robots counted as infidels.

"I'm terribly sorry, but martyrdom by robot does not warrant 72 virgins, but here's some raisins as a parting gift."
Posted by Ulomoter Phath1782 2006-07-24 13:55||   2006-07-24 13:55|| Front Page Top

#23 I would think that if some tunnel entrances were sealed and others had a hot (say 1000F) fire for a few seconds the oxygen in the tunnels would deplete so fast that the tunnel occupants would pass out and likely not recover.

Is that correct?
Posted by mhw 2006-07-24 14:05||]">[]  2006-07-24 14:05|| Front Page Top

#24 Oh, how boring...Black hawk down-3 to date..(the poor hardworking American tax payers.)Today, six "Iraelis" sent to hell-20 to the vegetable ward. Yawn (excuse me). Total "Israeli" "soldiers" (ha! ha!) sent to the fire-50, total sent to the vegetable ward (I lost count). Well, the "Israelis" were so busy flexing their muscles on Palestinian toddlers and pre-schoolers from a 26,000 feet altitude-suddenly they had to fight MEN! Poor "Israelis". They don't want to fight. They only want to make bagels in peace. Awwwwww. But Bush boy and Condy R. won't have it. No sir. 2,500 rockets and missiles already landed on Israeli cities. (less than 1% of the Hizbullah arsenal). Israeli cities are getting empty. Awwwwww. 22,000 settlers have already applied to go back to America (to make their bagels). Awwwwwwww. Now the "Israelis" are willing to accept a diplomatic solution. (UN peacekeepers and the Lebanese army to patrol southern Lebanon.). Awwww. We knew you could'nt fight men. Want to keep killing pre-scoolers huh? Saw on T.V. an "Israeli" "soldier" ha! ha! almost drop a tank shell on his toes today. Soooo sad. Pathos...really-
Posted by the Levant. 2006-07-24 14:59||   2006-07-24 14:59|| Front Page Top

#25 Oooh, oooh - look, children! It's a native Syrian troll! Get out your cameras, because they're almost extinct.

poor things, they just couldn't adapt to the modern world. Pity, but there it is.
Posted by tour guide 2006-07-24 15:04||   2006-07-24 15:04|| Front Page Top

#26 Drop flaming ham patties by the thousands.
Posted by Mike N. 2006-07-24 15:06||   2006-07-24 15:06|| Front Page Top

#27 mhw: You can defeat that one by using fairly airtight, fireproof doors. That's why the tunnels were such a huge casualty producer on Iwo Jima and in Vietnam. They are incredibly survivable. Don't get me wrong, by going to a tunnel-based defense, you've given up _all_ of your tactical initiative and mobility outside of the confines of the tunnel network. It's a suicidal gesture. You're telling your opponent, yeah I'm going to die, but I'm going to take as many of you bastards with me as I can. It only works when your opponent doesn't have the will to take high casualties.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-24 15:18||   2006-07-24 15:18|| Front Page Top

#28 Forget the tunnels. Find out where the Hizb'Allah house their families and lay waste to it. Enough of this concern for innocents, there are none.

This PC BS is a modern day phenomenon, time go Roman on the Arab/Islamic scum. Death they crave, then give it to them and their families. All they can take. They would not hesitate to do the same, time to fight on our enemies level.

Posted by Thraper Croper9914 2006-07-24 15:47||   2006-07-24 15:47|| Front Page Top

#29 Pump them full of pig piss.
Posted by tu3031 2006-07-24 15:49||   2006-07-24 15:49|| Front Page Top

#30 Watching one of those WW2 Documentation DVD sets. It was a cheap set I picked up at some store awhile back for a few bucks and just got around to watching it (in glorious B&W!). Haven't come to the Iwo Jima part yet. Kind of backfilling my knowledge (its amazing how much they skipped over in history class). Anyway...

On one of the Pacific Islands (punja or something like that) there was a ridge called Bloody Nose Ridge where the Japanese had dug tunnels and were resisting fircely. After fighting them for 21 days or so the marines simply buldozed all the entrances closed and kept them closed.

Instant Tomb.
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-07-24 16:15||   2006-07-24 16:15|| Front Page Top

#31 Our grand daddy's were pretty smart. Pour gasoline in the tunnels, light it and let it get very hot. Then blow the tunnel entrance. The fuel will smolder, produce choking smoke and suck oxygen for days. Sometimes the old ways are the best ways, including chasing off every living soul within 20km.
Posted by ed 2006-07-24 16:25||   2006-07-24 16:25|| Front Page Top

#32 The only way to defeat Hezbollah is with napalm, by the millions of gallons. Drop it everywhere you suspect a tunnel or bunker. See a tree move? Bathe the entire hillside with napalm. The Israelis need to re-introduce the A-1E. IIRC, it can carry 12 150-gal. napalm canisters, and has an unbelievable loiter capacity.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2006-07-24 17:02||]">[]  2006-07-24 17:02|| Front Page Top

DEBKA is not a news source.
Bingo. Every post quoting them needs the salt girl warning.
Posted by JSU 2006-07-24 17:43||   2006-07-24 17:43|| Front Page Top

#34 I know that Levant is a troll and an enemy. I really hate to say this, but I agree with some of the things he/Allah's Virgin/thing has posted on #24. The only way to shut people like them up is to take Old Patriot's advice on #32. Right now, Levant is truly is representing the satanic Islamic society. Currently, the Islamists does not have any fear of the IDF.

I know the U.S. would have brought in the Warthogs and the "Death from the Air" C-130's" and would've quickly resolved the resistance on the hill sides of southern Lebanon.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2006-07-24 17:47||   2006-07-24 17:47|| Front Page Top

#35 PR, I just re-read 24 and I can't figure out what you find to agree with. Take OP's advice and there will be a cease fire in 24 hours, not to Israel's advantage.

The Israelis have to clear these tunnels out one at a time. It's going to take a long time and it isn't really good TV. Israel cannot afford casualties. What Hezb'Allah seeks to do is inflict as many casualties as possible on the IDF.

A week ago some in the IDF didn't want to send ground forces into Lebanon at all, for fear of losses, I suspect. Now at least they have. They need time and the right munitions. I suspect that's why there is a rush order on PGMs. Cool as a flame thower looks, I suspect aiming an undetectable laser to pinpoint delivery of a bomb is a lot more effective amd incurs a lot less friendly casualites.

What Israel needs is time to do this right. If Israel looses this, we'll be fighting tunnels for a long time. Let them develop the tactics that work in today's world.

Iwo Jima was invaded on February 16. Operation completed was March 26 and mopping up went on till June. Over 5,000 Marines were killed taking the island from the 20,000 Japanese who held it to virtually the last man. While I wouldn't mind seeing that many hizzies die, Israel cannot afford to lose that many IDF.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-24 18:16||   2006-07-24 18:16|| Front Page Top

#36 NS,

Levant sez: "Now the "Israelis" are willing to accept a diplomatic solution. (UN peacekeepers and the Lebanese army to patrol southern Lebanon.)."

Ok, maybe I shouldn't used the word "some" instead used the word "one."

If, as you say, is just a issue of "time" to get the proper munitons to the field, then we are on the same page. But, if its a matter of will and international appeasement, then I got major problems with Olmert. Israel have a horrible track record of making unnecessary peace treaties after they have or close to clearly winning a war. Some of the peace treaties are suicidal. I just hope it's for all the marbles this time. The only reason I am confident is because Bush is running this war and not Olmert.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2006-07-24 18:57||   2006-07-24 18:57|| Front Page Top

#37 I agree that there is definitely a will issue for Israel. I'm not sure it's Olmert. He seems to want to do the right thing. But that guy Kaplinski, who's gone dark, didn't want to put ground troops in Lebanon at all! And there's definitely more accomodating noises coming from Tel Aviv than I'd like, but that's life in a democracy.

Agreeing to a diplomatic solution including a peacekeeping force (from NATO) is accepting the obvious. But the strings attached mean that it won't be accepted till Israel has had time to deal with Hezb'Allah.

Israel makes treaties after they get close to winning wars because the Americans tell them to. We do that because we don't want to humiliate the Arabs. We are the arsenal of Israel's democracy and if we shut the door they stop fighting two days later. That's why they have to worry about how the MSM portrays them on the evening brainwashing.

We also agree that what is different this time is Bush. He knows we've got to stomp Hezb'Allah now. If we don't the next match may be in Dearborn.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-24 19:22||   2006-07-24 19:22|| Front Page Top

#38 There's some boys in Montana that would love to go to Dearborn.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2006-07-24 19:27||   2006-07-24 19:27|| Front Page Top

#39 Really, Mr. Levant! Did your mother teach you no manners at all?
Posted by trailing wife 2006-07-24 19:28||   2006-07-24 19:28|| Front Page Top

#40 I have to disagree, badanov, the Japanese were not trying to hold territory at Iwo Jima. They didn't have the Navy they needed. The sole aim of the Japanese forces on Iwo Jima was to kill as many Americans as they could. The order was "10 Americans for every Japanese". They knew they couldn't hold Iwo so they did the next best thing. Make the Americans pay a very heavy price. Seems to me that's what Hezbollah is trying to do. Kill as many Jews as possible.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2006-07-24 20:48||   2006-07-24 20:48|| Front Page Top

#41 Hezb'Allah does not want to kill Jews, per se. They want to kill enough Israelis, citizen or military, so that the IDF reacts in a manner the International Community will condemn so greatly that it will force Israel to accept an unsatisfactory outcome that Hezb'Allah will characterize as a victory. It will then be sufficiently entrenched in Lebanon that it can begin offensive operations in Israel.

Managing the MSM perception is why this is going so slowly.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-24 21:02||   2006-07-24 21:02|| Front Page Top

"If we don't the next match may be in Dearborn."

And there are definitely some boys in Texas that would love to take a road trip to Dearborn. After we clean out our own Rats nest in Houston and a few other places.

Posted by Manolo 2006-07-24 21:11||   2006-07-24 21:11|| Front Page Top

#43 Since this Debka article is about 50% speculative crap, I won't comment on that. However, the analogy with Pacific Island tactics is appropriate. Because of the presence of hidden fighters it was important to take the high ground, and be on the alert for clues. On the Jap occupied islands, US combat groups would do top-down sweeps, incendiary grenades on tunnels they found. The other weapon was the flame-thrower. The sweeps were decidedly one-sided, as Hizbollah is no doubt finding out. I am getting sick of hearing professional renderings by the IDF, being referred to as the invasion being "bogged down" by the "surprising skill" of Hizbollah. Debka is partly run by ex-soldiers with an ax to grind. A mix of fact and fiction, leads to fiction being treated as fact.
Posted by Griper Whegum8464 2006-07-24 22:39||   2006-07-24 22:39|| Front Page Top

#44 The terror orgs will only replace their simple Katyusha rockets with bigger, more sophisticated weapons. Both FOX and CNN had reported this week that Russia continues to produce the Katyusha series/family of rockets for export. The Katyusha is popular becuz its not only cheap to mfg + easy to handle/hide + can be fired from confined or limited spaces, but also remains capable of continous upgrades, i.e. IMPROV OR CONVERSION FOR USE WITH COLD WAR WMD = NBC WARHEADS. Even wid a buffer zone in Southern-Middle Lebanon, the IDF must be aware that the Radics can switch to longer-range [dual-use/NBC?]rockets - a buffer zone is hence at best temporary solution for the Israelis. The Syrians know this which is why they warned Israel not to get too close to the Syrian border. Short of IDF and MOssad units being sent on "search-and-destroy" missions agz terror arsenals into sovereign Syrian andor Iranian, etc. territories, pragmatically Israel may have to end up invading and conquering the whole of Lebanon, which in reality is likely the only way the Lebanese govt per se can escape the clutches of radical terror groups oper within its sovereign nation. THE TERROR GROUPS MAY BE MUSLIM, BUT MANY ARE ALSO FOR IRAN, SHIA ISLAM, AND RADICAL ISLAMIST FUNDAMENTALISM, NOT SUNNI ISLAM OR LOCAL DEMOCRACY-PLURALISM!? LEBANON 9-11 > HATRED OF ISRAEL-WEST VS. LOSS OF LEBANESE-SPECIFIC SOVEREIGNTY-INDEPENDENCE TO RADICAL IRAN + SHIA-BASED RADICAL ISLAMISM!?
Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-07-24 23:38||   2006-07-24 23:38|| Front Page Top

00:05 JosephMendiola
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