(SomaliNet) Tribal clashes which erupted Saturday in Hiran region, central of Somalia left five dead and dozens others wounded. Residents said the rival clan militias used heavy artillery weapons that forced many people flee their homes. Ugas Abdirahman Khalif, a well respected across the board elder reached the conflict zone to mediate the warring sides.
A top military official told the reporters that the fighting continue despite the efforts made by the elders to bring militias to a common table in Omad, a small village in the outskirt of Beledweyn city. The official said the fight erupted because of grassing land argument which includes pasture and water.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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Link ||
[3 views]
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#1
Ranchers vs Free Grazers...when will it ever end?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 7:39 Comments ||
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#2
Ah yes, Ima make Lincoln County Strange War center of my thesis on the Tragedy of the Uncommon.
(SomaliNet) A heavy explosion and gunfire could be heard tonight in Wadnaha road, south of the Somalia capital Mogadishu as celebrations marking the 1st July independence day continue in the presidential palace. A local resident who is in condition of anonymous told Somalinet by telephone that masked local militants have launched an ambush attack on the government soldiers stationing at the check points of Howlwadaag and Geed Jaceyl.
A ceremony of commemorating the 37th anniversary when Somalia took its independence from the Italian colonial in 1960 is currently going on in Villa Somalia, the presidential compound in Mogadishu where many top government officials are present under heavy tight security. Somalias interim president Abdulahi Yusuf Ahmed is expected to deliver his national speech at the occasion, at mid night local time the national flag will hoisted.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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Link ||
[4 views]
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#1
Somalia is a province of Canada?
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:02 Comments ||
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#2
Somolia must have been a dump for a long time if the Allies allowed the Italians to keep it as a colony after WWII.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 13:28 Comments ||
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British officials intensified the hunt Sunday for what they called an Al Qaeda-linked network behind three three?
attempted terrorist attacks, conducting pinpoint raids across a country.
A British government security official said a loose U.K.-wide network appeared to be behind the attacks but investigators were struggling to pin down suspects' identities even two arrested after they drove a Jeep Cherokee into Glasgow's main airport terminal Saturday and set it ablaze. "These are not the type of people who always carry identity documents, or who use their real identities," the official said on condition of anonymity.
Residents of homes neighboring addresses being raided by police in central England and Liverpool claimed the residents were doctors or medical students. Britain's Sky News and several British newspapers reported that two men arrested over the attacks were doctors working in British hospitals. Police in London and Glasgow refused to comment on the claim.
The security official said police and MI5, the internal spy agency, did not know if the suspects were British born, from overseas, or some combination of the two, despite local media reports that they were mainly of Middle Eastern origin. Typical Pakistanis with a plethora of passports?
Most vehicles were being barred from driving up to airport terminals and air passengers told to use public transport, airline operator BAA PLC said. Random searches were being carried out on vehicles approaching railway stations, British Transport Police said.
In Liverpool late Saturday, police arrested a 26-year-old man and then searched two homes on a road near Penny Lane, made famous by the Beatles song.
Officers also searched a residential area about a mile from Glasgow's airport and, at the Royal Alexandra Hospital, where the burnt jihadi was taken for treatment
carried out a controlled explosion on a suspicious vehicle in the parking lot.
"It is believed that this car is connected to yesterday's incident at Glasgow International Airport," Strathclyde Police said in a statement. Police said no explosives were found, but gave no other details.
On the Glasgow street where a house was being searched, officers carried crates of items out of the building. Brian Harvey, a 60-year-old construction worker who lives on the street, said he had seen a green SUV parked outside the property being searched. "I saw a green vehicle, a Jeep Cherokee. It seemed unusual, strange over here," Harvey said, explaining that most other vehicles on the street were more modest. He said he knew nothing about the residents of the house, which he said was a rented property.
In Staffordshire, neighbors said the residents of a home raided by police included a hospital doctor, his wife and their small child. "The gentleman living there is a hospital doctor," neighbor Daniel Robinson said. "They have been here for just over nine months."
Glasgow's Assistant Chief Constable John Malcolm identified the car used in the attack as a green Jeep Cherokee with the license plate L808RDT and asked whether anyone had seen it during the days before the attack. He also appealed for any personal photographs or videos of the attack itself. He said the man hospitalized was the driver and identified the other man as a 27-year-old.
Posted by: trailing wife ||
07/01/2007 18:50 ||
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[3 views]
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#1
Police also raided a second house on Hatherley Street in Toxteth.
Haroon Samad, 56, who lives next door to the house, said: "I heard a noise about midnight last night, a policeman shouting 'Come out with your hands up'."
"The police were in uniform and armed."
"I saw four people, the men who live at the house, come out with their hands up, and walk calmly towards the police car on the other side of the road. Another police car was stationed at the top of the road."
"All the lads who live there are in their 20s. Three are from Pakistan and one from the Yemen."
"They said they were students."
"The policeman later knocked on my door to apologise for the disturbance. He said later that they had been set free, and are no longer being held."
Mr Samad said all the men attended the mosque at the top of the street.
Posted by: John Frum ||
07/01/2007 19:35 Comments ||
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THE terrorists who attempted to bomb central London last week deliberately placed the second vehicle to catch rescuers attending the injured from the first explosion, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
The senior security source also said the primitive gas and petrol devices were most likely the work of determined terrorists struggling - because of the security crackdown - to get their hands on the ingredients needed to create high explosives.
The senior security source also said the primitive gas and petrol devices were most likely the work of determined terrorists struggling - because of the security crackdown - to get their hands on the ingredients needed to create high explosives.
Yesterday, a huge police manhunt was under way for the terrorists responsible as forensic experts continued to examine the vehicles involved for clues.
The attack was thwarted after fumes were spotted leaking from the first vehicle, parked outside the packed Tiger Tiger nightclub in London's West End in the early hours of Friday morning.
A security source said: "Make no mistake, if the people behind these bombs could have got their hands on high explosive then they would have used that.
"However, following on from recent high-profile court cases and obviously, the 7/7 attacks, the authorities have had a major crackdown on obtaining the necessary ingredients to make such devices. And whilst this has had major benefits as far as law enforcement is concerned, it has not put off the bombers - they have just changed their methods."
He added: "If either of these devices had been detonated, the resulting effects would have been devastating.
"Both of these bombs were designed to kill as many people as possible and the addition of the nails means that even those who survived would have suffered dreadful injuries. The bombers knew they were not able to get their hands on high explosive or fertiliser because this would have alerted the authorities and so they went for whatever was to hand and easy to obtain, hence the gas canisters, the nails and the petrol."
The make-up of the bombs led some initially to believe it was just a crude attempt to maim and injure but this was disputed by the expert.
He added: "It may have looked simple but it was the best they could do and was by no means amateurish in its attempts.
"This is a classic situation which the armed forces and people of Iraq face every single day across the country. However, it is the first time that such a device has been used on a British street.
The position of the first car meant the blast would have been funnelled right into the club and all the people coming out. Make no mistake, these people knew what they were doing.
The (second) car was parked far enough away not to immediately raise suspicion but close enough to be in the vicinity of ambulance, fire engines and police cars attending the first blast.
"Whilst Haymarket itself is quite a wide street, the position of the car, which was parked directly in front of the entrance to Tiger Tiger and an alleyway, meant the blast would have been funnelled right into the club and all the people coming out. Make no mistake, these people knew what they were doing."
The second car bomb had been left on Park Lane, a busy thoroughfare around the clock. The expert said: "The car was parked far enough away not to immediately raise suspicion but close enough to be in the vicinity of ambulance, fire engines and police cars attending the first blast.
"Also, because it is a main road, there would have been a very strong possibility that other passers-by would have been caught up in the chaos too when that one detonated.
"It is only by the grace of God that both of these devices were discovered but the authorities know that there will almost certainly be others."
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 14:41 ||
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#1
The WaPo article suggests the London bombers (at least) were trying to create a fuel-air explosive by letting the gas leak out of the cylinders -
According to some reports, the valves on the gas cylinders were left open, which Driver-Williams said was a strong indication that the bombers intended to create a "fuel-air" explosion. "What you're effectively creating is a thermobaric device," he said, referring to an explosion that relies on oxygen in the atmosphere to ignite a blast wave more powerful than many conventional explosives.
Fuel-air explosives are difficult to ignite, and the timing is especially tricky, Driver-Williams said. A mistake might result in two separate but minor explosions -- such as a burning car -- if the fuel-air mixture does not ignite properly. If it does, however, the result would be a "fireball the size of a house."
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/01/2007 15:07 Comments ||
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#2
lotp, thanks for all the sleuthing and reporting today. Very valuable as the Burg is (again) a one-stop resource for the latest in the WoT.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/01/2007 15:15 Comments ||
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#3
There need to be special enhancements for those who intentionally target emergency response personnel. ERT and EMS staff are a core component of a healthy and cohesive society. Striking at them is going for the jugular.
Absent capital punishment, permanent solitary confinement and subsistence rations spring to mind. Muslim terrorists are making increasing use of this vile strategy and it merits a dramatic escalation of the penalties attached to it.
#8
Make no mistake, these people knew what they were doing.
Correction: While they might have had some vague idea of what they were trying to do they cocked it up very badly. We are not dealing with the cream of the jihadi crop here. These guys are frickin morons. Hey, Al Quaida!!! Is this the best you've got? Is this what you've been reduced to? This was a piss poor showing. You know that don't you? What, you mean the smart young men are turning their backs on your half-baked suicide missions? What a shame!
#10
While they might have had some vague idea of what they were trying to do they cocked it up very badly.
Lack of competency in no way mitigates the monstrosity of their intent. This is much like the situation with Iran. While they clumsily attempt to assemble nuclear weapons, we are still not allowed to regard their lack of expertise as making the threat any less real.
Despite any lack of success, the would-be London bombers should face life in prison without any possibility of parole. One lesson the West has yet to learn is that we must always take Islam at its word. To date, that word has been "death to the Infidel" and we'd damn well better start taking them seriously.
#11
Folks, it's time to give the feed/wrap/drown them in/with lard/ham/bacon meme a rest.
It's a tired trope.
It won't have the effect you imagine.
It's an easy snark that begs the real question of how we can deter terrorism without compromising our fundamental values to the point of no return.
Good people, we are going to be faced with some really tough decisions over the next few years. We won't come to easy agreement on where the line is that we should cross. We need to gather facts -- not emotional overstatements, but facts -- and think this through.
Bullying others by endless repetition of demands for extreme action NOW!!!! isn't gonna cut it. Neither is the pork fat meme.
#12
I agree that harsher measures are required. I suggest a "pebble in the pond" technique. Though you have to go through the legal motions with the jihadis themselves, the rest of their family, their friends, their associates, etc., are out of the limelight.
You can really put the blocks to them. Put the entire bureaucratic machine to making their lives a burden and a misery.
Administrative loss of all government support, public benefits, take their children out of school and declare the parents unfit guardians, adopting them off to other families.
The police and fire departments don't show up when they call, their taxes are fouled up, their cars get lots of citations, any businesses they have get shut down, and it goes on and on.
In other words, everything goes wrong in their lives all at once. Reduced to begging in the street from strangers, with an eye to being kicked out of the country.
A.k.a. when bureaucrats attack. Just for this alone, several hundred should be forced out of the country in poverty.
#14
Great post, 'moose. That's some truly innovative thinking. The kind we desperately need. Although the ACLU would descend en masse squalling about unequal protection under the law.
#16
If your Average Joe catches a Jihadi running away from a fizzle and decides to drop him with a ham, I cheer him his actions. From a government level, I object. Its a complete waste of money. We already do enough of that.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 16:33 Comments ||
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#17
it offers potential insight into the nature of the threat they represent and of responses we might make.
lotp, the problem remains that despite temporary lack of success, we are not allowed to scale back the level of threat response required. That will only precipitate even more ghastly death tolls when these thugs actually do succeed. The point then remains that we need to consider responding as if these attacks really had gone through.
#18
For consideration;
1. The average jihadi (or wanna-be) is typicaly a social failure on several levels. One of these levels is a complete lack of any real technical competence.
2. The average jihadi cannon fodder lacks the motivation/discipline to think criticaly, as opposed to rote memorization. There is no reward for critical thinking in their social environment.
3. Passive popular entertainment is a major source of information.
Conclusions:
1. the incindiary bombs were not so much an attempt at a thermobaric device as "if we set fire to some gasoline with a few gas cyliders in them, there will be a large Hollywood type Kaboom, In'shallah!" In other words, a BLVE bomb.
2. the "tactics" displayed are clearly learned from popular reports. Thank you mass media. Fricken short-sighted traitors.
3. The whole bacon grease thing is ulitimately counterproductive. Ditto most of the other forms of petty legal harrassment.
4. Deportation/loss of citizenship/lifetime ban on re-entry for the extended family of any convicted domestic terrorist, if carried out consistently, will shut down the domestic jihad cold.
cold is hand, heart and stone/ Cold it hajji far from home...
Posted by: N guard ||
07/01/2007 17:18 Comments ||
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#19
BLVE bomb
Definition, please? I'd rather not google it, and make the the nice men and women in their neat black suits nervous. Thank you! ;-)
#20
Deportation/loss of citizenship/lifetime ban on re-entry for the extended family of any convicted domestic terrorist, if carried out consistently, will shut down the domestic jihad cold.
#21
lotp is right. Hard decisions. But are they worth making? The kind of decision that is necessary to remove the threat of terrorism is one, I'm afraid, that wil make us give up our western values of freedom, justice, due process and fairness.
How so? Only the forced removal of Islam, it's doctrines, it's Mosques and it's adherents will eliminate terrorism. We have neither the will or the ability to do so, without becoming something completely different than what we are. Hell, our leaders won't even identify the problem by it's real name.
#22
Deportation/loss of citizenship/lifetime ban on re-entry for the extended family of any convicted domestic terrorist, if carried out consistently, will shut down the domestic jihad cold.
Unless they're born here, which most of them apparently are. And of course the proportion of jihadis born here will only increase over time.
#23
Only the forced removal of Islam, it's doctrines, it's Mosques and it's adherents will eliminate terrorism. We have neither the will or the ability to do so, without becoming something completely different than what we are.
Islam is so inimical to Constitutional law that allowing it to remain will make us into "something completely different than what we are". This is the no-win situation Islam routinely puts its victims into. Either you acquiesce to being overrun demographically or finally become obliged to go Medieval.
I believe that an America which found the courage to neutralize the danger of its Muslim population would retain far more of its original character intact than if it were to allow the Islamic threat to go uncountered.
More and more people seem to be agreeing that the banning of Shari'a law would be advisable. This should be an important first step in marginalizing Islam so that any opposition by Muslim immigrants could populate the first round of deportations. The more we make our nation unfriendly to fundamentalist Islam, the safer it is.
You see it happen a lot in railway accidents, LP tanker get heated by a fire until it bursts. Same principle as a fuel air explosive bomb.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/01/2007 19:12 Comments ||
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#25
wife, BLVE?? BLEV is boiling liquid, explosive vapor, a common haz mat problem.
Basicly, these guys knew that gasoline and patio gas [propane] can blow up. Their creative thinking stopped at the light a match and it will explode stage. It doesn't, necessarily.
#30
Bright Pebbles, the story was about (I think) General Black Pete [something] when he finally defeated the Moros that the Spaniards had been fighting for generations. The same people the Filipinos are fighting again today. It's not clear whether the bullets really were dipped in lard (it seems to me in my ignorance that would screw up the rifles something fierce), or the captives were just told so and believed it.
As I understand it, the Muslims believe that if they or their carcasses are tainted, pork or otherwise, they won't go to Paradise at all, never mind the various virgins.
In the latest in a series of arrests, one person was apprehended in the northwest port city of Liverpool and two houses were searched. Two, said to be a 26-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman, people were earlier seized in nearby Cheshire on the Glasgow-bound M6 highway.
In the small Scottish village of Houston, just outside Glasgow, video footage showed police combing a three-bedroom rental house. Neighbors described the occupants as of "Asian" appearance.
Scotland's Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill described those behind the airport attack as "not born and bred here," indicating they were not Scottish, the UK Press Association reported.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/01/2007 09:38 ||
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[3 views]
Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain
#1
It would be interesting to know whether the people being interviewed say stuff like "Might be Asian," or "not from around here." In some cases you would think that the UK press would run into a non-PC person who might offer something like "my neighbors were quiet people from Lahore."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 11:31 Comments ||
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#2
From Washington Post
Suspects Arrested in Connection With Glasgow Attack
Almost all terrorist plots carried out by Islamic extremists in the past five years in Britain have included investigative trails that led to Pakistan. With an estimated 1 million people of Pakistani descent living in Britain, and hundreds of thousands traveling each year between the two countries, it is particularly difficult to track those involved in plots hatched or guided by al-Qaeda forces based in Pakistan.
Posted by: John Frum ||
07/01/2007 12:26 Comments ||
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#3
Two, said to be a 26-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman, people were earlier seized in nearby Cheshire on the Glasgow-bound M6 highway.
I read something last night that the police had blocked the M6 near Cheshire, and these two were taken from one of the cars. So the police must have known exactly who they were looking for (unless the car had a gasoline-propane-and-nails set-up, too). Well done, British police!
John Frum, isn't it interesting how connections are suddenly being said aloud?
#4
80 percent of the world's Muslims live in Asia - the Indian subcontinent and Indonesia/Malaysia.
65 percent of the world's Muslims live in the Indian subcontinent - India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Islam in the Indian subcontinent is unique... it is the only variant that developed as a non-majority religion.
It has a tremendous number of fatwas dealing with this.. how to live as a muslim surrounded by unclean kufr.
It has been obsessed for two and a half centuries with regaining the political and economic power it lost, first to the Marathas and the Sikhs, then finally to the British.
Because of this, it is the subcontinental traditions - and Islamism as developed by the Pakistani Maulana Maududi, who influenced the Egyptian Maulana Qutb, that are the example, the template, for Muslim communities in the West.
These two men (Qutb and Maududi) provide the ideology behind Islamo-Fascism. It was Maududi who fused the 7th century religion of Mohammed with modern European Fascism.
Many writers focus only on the Arabs and their 7th century imaginings, ignoring the actual majority Muslim culture with its own religious tradition.
They quote the Arab al-Wahab but not the equally influential Indian Muslim Shah Waliullah Dehlavi
Others focus on the Iranian mullahs especially the Ayatollah Khomeini. Ironically, Khomeini's grandfather Sayyid Mustafa al-Hindi migrated from Lucknow in India to Iran in the 19th century. Khomeini's ancestors were Imams for the Shia of North India and their religious traditions were formed and influenced by centuries of subcontinental experience.
The British have allowed the immigration of the one Muslim group (from the subcontinent) that traditionally existed as a minority and resists assimilation, one that seeks a separate political and economic space for itself, the one obsessed with regaining their traditional ruling status over the Dhimmis they so despise.
Posted by: John Frum ||
07/01/2007 13:07 Comments ||
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#5
I have a source who tells me that it looks like this was all run out of Scotland by non-Scots and that some of these may turn out to be non-Brit foreign nationals (ie. Pakis). The number one thing troubling the Met know is why these people were so bad at making the bombs and detonators. Looks like these perps have been setting this up for over 2 months but without expert knowledge. Weird.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:10 Comments ||
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#6
Building on that thought, Jack is Back, could it be that the information from the online Jihad U. is somehow tainted?
#7
you mean like: "light fuse/pull grenade pin. Hold for 10-15 seconds to make sure ignition is working....check again, don't disappoint Allan. Then throw"
even better if the instruction are in Chinglish
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 13:54 Comments ||
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#9
Because of this, it is the subcontinental traditions - and Islamism as developed by the Pakistani Maulana Maududi, who influenced the Egyptian Maulana Qutb, that are the example, the template, for Muslim communities in the West.
These two men (Qutb and Maududi) provide the ideology behind Islamo-Fascism. It was Maududi who fused the 7th century religion of Mohammed with modern European Fascism.
How is it that this seems to escape the notice of so many politicians both here and abroad? It also merits consideration that a huge number of Muslims maintain a highly aggressive form of doctrine that shows zero promise of assimilation or integration. The implications of this are not at all heartening.
#11
you mean like: "light fuse/pull grenade pin. Hold for 10-15 seconds to make sure ignition is working....check again, don't disappoint Allan. Then throw"
Exactly what I'd have written had I been an engineer, Frank. ;-) But also, "stir mixture in bathtub with your mother's favourite wooden spoon for precisely 23 full rotations, then pour in the ____, taking 14.5 seconds to do so. Slowly add the lavender bath salts, to cover the odor so the neighbors won't object..."
Instructions must be in Paklish, though. Chinglish doesn't have enough pronouns and commas, and won't be understandable to the ninth form drop-outs.
#12
lavendar bath salts? Where In Allah's name will the Professional Jihadi find soap, much less lavendar bath salts? LOL!!
TW - we need a cultural intervention...
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 17:48 Comments ||
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#13
Don't be silly, Frank. The lavender bath salts are at the edge of the bathtub where Mom always keeps them, in the pretty cut glass jar. And since she's already going to be annoyed that our little wannabe jihadi ruined her favourite mixing spoon, it's not going to go any worse for him when she finds out he used up her favourite bath salts. But of course he doesn't have to worry about it since, by following so precisely the Jihadi U. instructions he downloaded from that secret website, he's going to die shortly in a fiery explosion that leads straight to Paradise, no worries, eh?
For months, security services had been expecting a vehicle bomb in London. As the hunt continues, questions arise about whether the attack that came so close could have been stopped long ago
As Jacqui Smith left the Cabinet Office yesterday afternoon, she must have pondered the question most Londoners have over the past 48 hours. How, almost two years after the 7 July attacks, had the capital's defences almost been breached by terrorists again? As the new Home Secretary left the meeting of Cobra, the government's emergency response committee, she knew that how many times, if any, al-Qaeda extremists strike again will define her record. She issued a statement urging that Britons 'must not let the threat of terror stop us getting on with our lives'.
Meanwhile, hundreds of police officers patrolled rain-drenched streets in the investigation to ascertain how a suspected British-based al-Qaeda cell had infiltrated the heart of the West End. Two Mercedes primed with a potentially catastrophic stockpile of petrol, gas and nail bombs had been left in the city centre in the early hours of Friday morning. Fortunately, neither had detonated.
With the vulnerability of the capital again exposed, focus has switched to the type and scale of the ever-changing terror threat facing the police and security services. Most worrying, concede police sources, is that despite close monitoring of hundreds of suspects nothing on the radar suggested central London, the prized target of al-Qaeda, was on the verge of fresh attack. Initial concerns suggest that the security services may have switched surveillance from the car bombers on to other suspects, leaving them at liberty to hastily create, plan and target London clubbers early on Friday morning.
Security services concede it was 'possible' they had been monitoring those involved in the double car bomb cell at some stage. Only those whom they believe are involved in 'attack planning' are accorded serious attention, with a continual 'managing of risk' between the danger posed by individuals.
The security services concede it was 'possible' they had been monitoring those involved in the double car bomb cell at some stage, which will also fuel the debate on whether MI5 has sufficient resources. Police candidly accept that they cannot monitor everyone they believe is a threat. In reality, only those whom they believe are involved in 'attack planning' are accorded serious attention, with a continual 'managing of risk' between the danger posed by individuals. People can move in and out of surveillance, depending on that analysis.
Around 50 Islamic extremist cells are 'active' in the UK, with about 300 extremists under constant surveillance.
These are classified as 'primary investigative targets' and involve individuals the security services have reason to fear are actively seeking to carry out an attack. Some of those categorised as the most dangerous can have up to 24 security service officials monitoring them round the clock. About 1,500 Britons are known to the police and security services as possible terror suspects, many registered on a database of radicalised individuals regarded as peripheral but susceptible to al-Qaeda's message of terror.
Last week was the first time Islamic extremists have deployed car bombs in Europe, but MI5 and Scotland Yard had been expecting such an attempt on the capital for months. The 'viable' devices would have been relatively cheap and quick to construct. MI6 is examining if there is an international dimension by looking at travellers to and from Iraq, where car bombs have killed hundreds.
In May, MI5 circulated a 42-page document to businesses detailing different types of car bombs and what to look out for. Documents disseminated just a fortnight ago by the National Counter Terrorism Security Service warned bars, clubs and pubs they were potential terrorist targets.
As the manhunt continued for the cell responsible, attention focused on terror suspects on the run from control orders, which will raise fresh questions over the value of the government's controversial tool for trying to protect the public. Among those being urgently sought are Lamine Adam from London, who, it was alleged during the Crevice terror trial, discussed attacking a night club. His brother Ibrahim, 20, and Cerie Bullivant, 24, have also escaped their control orders and are now said to be 'people of interest' to the police.
Others being sought are Zeeshan Siddiqui, 26, who, it was alleged also during the Crevice trial, has links to members of a cell jailed for plotting fertiliser bomb attacks in the south-east of England and which ihad connections to Dhiren Barot. Other suspects include Bestun Salim, who vanished from his Manchester flat last summer and is alleged to have links to Ansar al-Islam, a group linked to the Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Iraq's most notorious insurgent leader, who was killed in a US airstrike last year.
Officers will also continue investigating claims on the al Hesbah chat forum, frequently used by al-Qaeda supporters, which had predicted 'London shall be bombed' hours before the discovery of the first car bomb in Haymarket.
It is already likely that the suspects' getaway route will have been trailed using the hundreds of cameras in central London.
Yesterday, the biggest global terrorist investigation since 21 July 2005 continued apace. The US, Pakistan and Iraq were among the first countries contacted for assistance. With all MI5 leave cancelled, more than 1,000 officers are involved. It is understood that good-quality CCTV images of the suspect who ran from the Mercedes in Haymarket at 1.30am on Friday have been obtained. It is already likely that the suspects' getaway route will have been trailed using the hundreds of cameras in central London. Details of the driver, the numberplate and the vehicle will already have been checked, but the likelihood is that the cars were stolen. Sources say it is highly unlikely that the cell members have fled the country.
As fears that there might be more car bombs parked in London receded, the two Mercedes will continue to be examined in the hi-tech forensics laboratory at Fort Halstead, Kent.
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 08:49 ||
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Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain
#2
The only way to stop such things beforehand is to exile or imprison everyone who is being watched, and then all their known associates... and then hope all were caught.
#4
Bright Pebbles, the journalist appears unusually dense. A net involves roadblocks, checkpoints and the kicking in of doors. I don't think London is ready for a net.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 12:12 Comments ||
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#5
They keep using the number 2,000 known terror cell members that are under surveillance. I think it is much more. Remember those idiots that marched in Trafalgar cheering for Hizbollah. There were more than 2,000 there and remember the signs? Why the Brits didn't go in there then and round them up for deportation I don't know. You can't keep extending national identity rights to those intent on killing you and destroying your country - its called sedition, even in the UK.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:15 Comments ||
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#6
"Around 50 Islamic extremist cells are 'active' in the UK, with about 300 extremists under constant surveillance."
This really mean 50 cells have been detected, so the number of people really involved in "attack planning" is probably much higher.
Al
Posted by: Frozen Al ||
07/01/2007 13:17 Comments ||
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#7
"government's controversial tool for trying to protect the public." = government's multiculturally-inspired evasion of its constitutional responsibility to protect the public
#8
Of course the MSM is on both sides of this - can't violate rights of anyone, but the police should've caught them much sooner. Bad police!
How long before someone blames Bush, saying it was a Rovian plan to embarass Gordon Brown?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/01/2007 15:10 Comments ||
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#9
Most worrying, concede police sources, is that despite close monitoring of hundreds of suspects nothing on the radar suggested central London, the prized target of al-Qaeda, was on the verge of fresh attack.
Only 1984 Orwellian-style levels of surveillance could come near being adequate. At that point free and open society would be a thing of the past. The West will need to thoroughly reconsider just what value there is in having Islam's practitioners live amongst them. The simple question remains: What redeeming features does Islam have? My own answer is, "none".
The only way to stop such things beforehand is to exile or imprison everyone who is being watched, and then all their known associates... and then hope all were caught.
I concur, although I would add several hundred rinse and repeat cycles. Unfortunately, there is not enough jail space to hold the numbers involved. This simple fact is what drives my advocacy of internment or mass deportations.
#11
If you are always on the defensive w/r/t terrorists, you will forever be behind the eight ball. The terrorists will always be one step ahead of you.
Terrorists caught need to be swiftly tried, convicted, and hanged. Their families need to be immediately rounded up, sequestered and deported immediately after the sentence is carried out.
The terrorists have declared war on civilization. Their actions are an act of war, not a criminal offense. Responses need to be made to an act of war, not a criminal matter.
Take out some of these chaps, and the rest will behave or leave. They respect overwhelming and concentrated force. They do not respect the rule of law. That is why it is important to deal with terrorists appropriately, in a military-style approach.
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Kotzebue, Alaska ||
07/01/2007 15:59 Comments ||
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#12
If you are always on the defensive w/r/t terrorists, you will forever be behind the eight ball. The terrorists will always be one step ahead of you.
When playing chess, copying your opponent's play will only allow you to checkmate him one move after he wins. The same goes for fighting terrorism. Police action and law enforcement are not adequate to the task. Subduing Islam is going to require some major military action.
Terrorists caught need to be swiftly tried, convicted, and hanged. Their families need to be immediately rounded up, sequestered and deported immediately after the sentence is carried out.
Alaska Paul, I agree entirely. Terrorism runs in the family and relies heavily upon kinship for concealment and financing. There is a lot of debate going on about what to do when those terrorists are American citizens. What specifically would you have happen when they are naturalized immigrants or born American citizens?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/01/2007 16:38 Comments ||
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#15
A few years back the wife and I noticed one or two carpenter ants in the house. At first we were fairly tolerant. Not knowing much about carpenter ants we took a live and let live kind of attitude. And then more started coming...and more...and then more...and still more. It got to the point where we started bashing them right and left. A little research indicated that these buggers were a problem and that the house was at risk. Shortly thereafter we dropped our live and let live attitude and had to call in the professionals.
An internment camp, certainly, Zenster. As in a large, open air prison. Not a concentration camp, which term the Nazis redefined when theirs were set up for the physical extermination of the inhabitants. And it was the Egyptians that deliberately made and kept it so, starting in 1948.
#19
It will be hard to deport British citizens. Take away their, TV's, internet, cell phones and video games - then they will have some legitimate greivances. Most will leave for Canada.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 18:06 Comments ||
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#22
Muslims rarely inform on their own. I have little doubt that all involved in the gas terror plot, should have been red flagged but benefited from Muslim obstruction of justice. Remember, 1 of 6 UK Muslims supported the bloody 7-7 murders.
Muslims continue to pour into the West even though both their willingness to collect welfare and refusal to accept our laws, has been proven.
#23
An internment camp, certainly, Zenster. As in a large, open air prison. Not a concentration camp, which term the Nazis redefined when theirs were set up for the physical extermination of the inhabitants. And it was the Egyptians that deliberately made and kept it so, starting in 1948.
Thank you, tw. I truly appreciate your courage in making such a vital distinction. Especially in the recent prevailing climate of accusation and intimidation. Surveying other "venues", I am especially glad to have seen you express concern over such jackbooted histrionics there as well.
Gaza is not a concentration camp and neither do I recommend the institution of concentration camps. Benign internment of America's natural born Muslim population may well represent one of the only ways to contain their proclivity for causing mayhem. SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome) alone is nearly reason enough to seek legal curtailment of their activities.
I'd love to see some other viable alternatives present themselves. Sadly, Islam leaves us few, if any, other options. Its intransigence inevitably forces our hand no matter how much our politicians might deny it.
#25
There is some valuable air-clearing going on, but I personally would be more comfortable if the temperature were lowered a bit. I take it on faith that we're all working toward the same goal (DON'T ANY OF YOU DISILLUSION ME, 'K?), and part of what's happening is vocabulary/concept/ego tangles. I watched my father the biochemist and my future husband the chemical engineering student get into a very, very, very polite discussion over dinner once, where they actually agreed completely, but chemists and engineers use the same words to mean slightly different things. And they were so sweet about not screwing up what was starting to look like a really good thing that I didn't dare laugh... nor have I yet asked my mother what she thought that night. ;-)
However annoying Shipman's SHARK WEEK! thingy is, he seems to have triggered a discussion that needed to happen. I'm going to have to go to the O Club and apologize to him.
Bright Pebbles, the Muslims have prayed in store fronts and basements before, and they can do it again if their fancy buildings are taken from them. The jizya, though, would definitely drive a large number -- even of the British born -- elsewhere where the pickings were better. Of course, then you'd have to kick a great many non-Muslim Brits off the dole, too, but that would not be a bad thing in the end, I think. It worked pretty well Stateside, some years ago.
Detectives hunting the West End car bombers believe the suspects are most likely to be home-grown extremists linked to an overlapping network of terrorist cells implicated in previous plots against British targets.
Some may be known to police and be on the run after escaping Home Office control orders.
Those in the frame may be associates of the so-called Crevice gang, which planned to attack the Ministry of Sound nightclub in central London and the Bluewater shopping mall in Kent.
Members of the five-man cell, who were jailed for life in April, were directed by core Al-Qaeda figures after training in terror camps in Pakistan.
Five men who hoped to kill thousands with a fertiliser bomb were described as ruthless misfits who betrayed their country
The brother of one jailed gang member, who has been on the run since breaching a government-imposed control order six weeks ago, is said to have been keen to bomb a nightclub.
There is a real possibility the suspects may have a connection through a family of cells with the Crevice gang, said a senior government security official. It is very possible these people met each other at training camps.
The suspects may also have drawn inspiration from another cell led by Dhiren Barot, an Al-Qaeda general, who drew up sophisticated plans to target London hotels and office buildings by parking limousines packed with gas canisters in underground car parks.
Barot, now serving 30 years in prison, outlined his plot in a document called Gas Limos Project, which he prepared for Al-Qaeda leaders in Pakistan.
Security officials insist there was no intelligence pointing to a car bomb attack in the West End. But there are concerns that extremists who were on the surveillance back-burner could have escaped their attentions.
They are saying this is leftfield, that it came out of the blue, said a senior Whitehall official. What that means is they think its possible that these were people they have been aware of who suddenly did this.
It may be that these are people that they know about but just hadnt realised what they were up to.
Patrick Mercer, the Tory MP and security expert, said: The real nervousness for the agencies is that these may be people they know but havent picked up. Its happened before. It calls into question the strategy about leaving these people in play and not arresting them.
Such concerns reflect the fall-out from the investigation into the July 7 attacks two years ago, which killed 52 people.
The authorities initially claimed the suicide bombers were unknown clean skins, but it soon emerged that Mohammad Sidique Khan, the 7/7 leader, and Shehzad Tanweer had been under surveillance a year earlier.
The two bombers were photographed at meetings with Omar Khyam, the leader of the Crevice gang that was plotting to detonate a fertiliser bomb.
Bugged conversations of the Crevice cell revealed the plotters disdain for nightclubs. Discussing the Ministry of Sound, one gang member said: No one can put their hands up and say they are innocent...those slags dancing around.
A key member of the Crevice gang was Anthony Garcia. During his trial, an Al-Qaeda supergrass revealed that Garcias brother, Lamine Adam, had allegedly wanted to bomb a nightclub and was seeking a formula for explosives.
The supergrasss testimony was not considered strong enough for prosecution. However, Adam, 26, and his younger brother, Ibrahim, 20, were placed on control orders in February 2006 on the grounds that they planned to kill British soldiers serving abroad.
The two brothers and a friend, Cerie Bullivant, 24, who was put on a control order last July, went on the run six weeks ago. Police think they may have slipped abroad, but they cannot rule out that the trio could still pose a threat within the UK.
Lord Carlile, the governments terrorism watchdog, said: I would certainly not view this as a failure by the authorities in any sense, he said. Looking for home-grown cells is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 07:59 ||
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#3
Bugged conversations of the Crevice cell revealed the plotters disdain for nightclubs. Discussing the Ministry of Sound, one gang member said: No one can put their hands up and say they are innocent...those slags dancing around.
He must have missed the memos about Iraq and Kyoto.
#5
Excalibur is correct. Someday, the west will have to understand that the Muslims do not want to be part of the west. They want the west to be part of them.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 10:52 Comments ||
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#6
The "limo plan" connection makes sense. There is an element in these attacks that they are being planned and conducted by folks that have no better than an Associates Degree in Terror with a concentration in stupid rhetoric not in bomb-making. I don't know whether it was there desire to copy the "limo plan" or the desire to accelerate the timeframe between buying materials and accomplishing an attack that makes these attempts look hackneyed. MI-5 may have assumed a certain amount of planning, purchasing and experiementing time.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 12:43 Comments ||
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Police searched houses near Glasgow, Scotland's biggest city, on Sunday after what they said was a terrorist attack on its airport linked to two failed car bombings in London. The government raised the country's security level to "critical" -- meaning the risk of another attack was imminent -- following the airport incident, in which a fuel-filled, four-wheel-drive slammed into the entrance of the terminal and burst into flames.
We are dealing with a long-term threat. It is not going to go away in the next few weeks or months
"We are dealing with a long-term threat. It is not going to go away in the next few weeks or months," Prime Minister Gordon Brown, himself a Scot who took office only last Wednesday, said in a sombre appraisal of the terrorist threat facing the country.
Two men, one badly burned and in critical condition, were arrested after Saturday's attack, which took place on one of the busiest days for Scotland's main international airport. Two more people were arrested later in northern England. Five members of the public were slightly injured at the airport.
Wearing white plastic bodysuits and face masks, police in Glasgow combed several houses near the airport, in the town of Houston, about six miles (10 km) west of the city.
Neighbours said two Asian men had moved into one of the searched houses, a five minute drive from the airport, about a month ago but had kept very much to themselves.
Neighbours said two Asian men had moved into one of the searched houses, a five minute drive from the airport, about a month ago but had kept very much to themselves. "I don't remember seeing them at all," said Mae Gordon, 67. "They were the only people around here you would never see."
Britain has seen an increase in terrorism-related attacks since the Sept. 11 strikes on the United States and since it joined U.S. forces in invading Iraq in 2003. Some analysts believe the latest attacks may be designed to exert pressure on Britain to withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.
"Irrespective of Iraq, irrespective of Afghanistan, irrespective of what is happening in different parts of the world, we have an international organisation trying to inflict the maximum damage on civilian life in pursuit of a terrorist cause that is totally unacceptable to most people," Brown said.
" Brown, who took over from Tony Blair on Wednesday, convened a meeting of the top security chiefs to discuss measures to handle the first big test of his leadership. In a short address, he urged the nation to be vigilant.
Appearing on BBC television on Sunday, Brown warned the fight against terrorism would be drawn out. "Irrespective of Iraq, irrespective of Afghanistan, irrespective of what is happening in different parts of the world, we have an international organisation trying to inflict the maximum damage on civilian life in pursuit of a terrorist cause that is totally unacceptable to most people," he said.
British Muslim groups condemned the series of incidents and urged Muslims to cooperate with the authorities.
British Muslim groups condemned the series of incidents and urged Muslims to cooperate with the authorities. "We are utterly appalled by this sinister plot and comment the professionalism of the security services in aborting it," the British Muslim Initiative said in a statement.
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 07:46 ||
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#1
"We are dealing with a long-term threat. It is not going to go away in the next few weeks or months,"
Not until we muster the brain wattage to do what so obviously needs to be done. That or submit to the forever war of the koranomicon.
Two car bombs were found and defused by the police in front of a London night club, and a message on the internet said, Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed. Since the majority of the Muslims in the UK are Pakistanis, things are expected to become tougher for them.
Ominously, an official stated in London that Muslims (read Pakistanis) formed the largest community doing time in UK prisons and that most Muslim prisoners were falling under the lure of fundamentalism. Like earlier incidents, the car-bombers will finally be traced. But it would be yet another piece of bad luck if they turn out to be Pakistanis who visited some banned but renamed and still active seminary in Pakistan. Read together with what is happening in Lal Masjid, it is clear that little is going Pakistans way. *
Posted by: John Frum ||
07/01/2007 8:17 Comments ||
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#4
it is clear that little is going Pakistans way.
it is also clear that Pakistan is doing little to change that. Reducing Lal Masjid (and the Islamists inside) to rubble and protein paste would be a good start
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 8:24 Comments ||
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#5
EDITORIAL: More bad news from London
I'm wave finger at John Frumm you are bad man, very bad man.
#6
Two men, one badly burned and in critical condition,
Damn, only one? I understand that modern medicine is prohibited to followers of Islam, bet the ban is being ignored. (Dammit)
The bystanders made a small mistake, instead of stopping and arresting, should have thrown them back until extra crispy. Then arrested and a nice slow trip to the hospital with orders "no sedatives", so their religion is not insulted.
Should stop this crap instantly, nobody likes burns.
Posted by: Albert Gore ||
07/01/2007 10:32 Comments ||
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#7
Dammit, cookie monster got me.
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
07/01/2007 10:33 Comments ||
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#8
Yea, in the light that the candle jihadi seemed to enjoy himself while burning, I would be helpful to enhance his enjoymemt if I were nearby. Apropos, aren't the burns ointments based on porcine fat in part?
#10
Brown, who took over from Tony Blair on Wednesday, convened a meeting of the top security chiefs to discuss measures to handle the first big test of his leadership.
Guess what, Gordon? There's gonna be a lot more of them. We'll see how 'different' your regime becomes.
#11
I think Gordon plans to distance himself from Bush by not visiting the Ranch or participating in photo-ops. With respect to cooperation I'm hoping for the status quo.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 13:08 Comments ||
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#12
"Irrespective of Iraq, irrespective of Afghanistan, irrespective of what is happening in different parts of the world, we have an international organisation trying to inflict the maximum damage on civilian life in pursuit of a terrorist cause that is totally unacceptable to most people,"
What Brown and Bush and Sarkozy et. al. have to say and say it loud and clear is who this "international organization" really is - its the Muzzies and radical Islam and we are fighting a war of civilization. Stop tip-toeing around this. It is a World War, as Fred and company show every Rantburg day with news from every continent regarding these Orcs. And we can't win these with great police work - we need to use all our weapons and go to the heart of the nest (Iran) and kill every mullah and his believers. At least that is a better start than extinguishing a sectarian insurency in Iraq.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:29 Comments ||
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#13
"Irrespective of Iraq, irrespective of Afghanistan, irrespective of what is happening in different parts of the world, we have an international organisation trying to inflict the maximum damage on civilian life in pursuit of a terrorist cause that is totally unacceptable to most people,"
What Brown and Bush and Sarkozy et. al. have to say and say it loud and clear is who this "international organization" really is - its the Muzzies and radical Islam and we are fighting a war of civilization. Stop tip-toeing around this. It is a World War, as Fred and company show every Rantburg day with news from every continent regarding these Orcs. And we can't win these with great police work - we need to use all our weapons and go to the heart of the nest (Iran) and kill every mullah and his believers. At least that is a better start than extinguishing a sectarian insurency in Iraq.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:29 Comments ||
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#14
[ I]t is clear that little is going Pakistans way.
#15
And we can't win these with great police work - we need to use all our weapons and go to the heart of the nest (Iran) and kill every mullah and his believers. At least that is a better start than extinguishing a sectarian insurency in Iraq.
Killing "every mullah and his believers" in Iran would involve exterminating the vast majority of Iranians. Is that what you are proposing? Furthermore, Shiite Iran is not "the heart of the nest". That dubious honor falls to Sunni Saudi Arabia, the sponsor and financeer of most global terrorism.
While I agree that Iranian theocracy must be dismantled post haste such a move does not require killing most of the Iranian people.
#16
Ominously, an official stated in London that Muslims (read Pakistanis) formed the largest community doing time in UK prisons and that most Muslim prisoners were falling under the lure of fundamentalism.
I've got a good cure for this one: Ban the Koran from the prisons. Do not allow muslim clerics to visit prisoners. Do not allow prayer meetings for muslims.
You say that's a violation of their rights? How about the right of civilized people to go about their business without the fear that some moron who was brainwashed in prison is going to set off a bomb?
There was a TV show on recently about Riker's Island (sp) in New York and in one scene some idiot was seen proudly displaying a copy of the Quran from behind the bars of his cell. It's the devil's book so it's no surprise that it shows up that way in prison. Don't let them have it.
Until civilized people wake up and understand who their enemy is there will be more terror.
#17
I've got a good cure for this one: Ban the Koran from the prisons. Do not allow muslim clerics to visit prisoners. Do not allow prayer meetings for muslims.
You say that's a violation of their rights? How about the right of civilized people to go about their business without the fear that some moron who was brainwashed in prison is going to set off a bomb?
You realize that your suggestion amounts to some form of banning Islam? Just checking. I happen to agree that the last part of your post supercedes the religious rights of some violent psychos.
A DEVASTATING car bomb was just two minutes from exploding in a 900ft fireball when it was defused by a brave expert yesterday. The silver 1990 E-class Mercedes saloon was packed with eight propane gas cylinders, 60 litres of fuel in a dozen petrol cans plus another 30 in its tank and fistfuls of lethal three and six-inch nails. Parked outside a Haymarket nightclub packed with 1,000 revellers, the Baghdad-style bomb could have killed and injured hundreds, laying waste to people and property in a 300-yard radius.
Astonishingly the hero bomb squad officer immediately recognised a mobile phone in the car as the potential trigger device. Knowing he could have been blown up on the spot, he severed a wire from it, disabling the detonator, and hurled it from the vehicle. Earlier, a message on a jihadist website boasted: "Today I say: Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed."
A Scotland Yard source said: "If the officer hadn't acted swiftly there would have been a cataclysmic explosion. The results would have been awesome. It is no exaggeration to say that anyone within 600-900ft caught in that conflagration would have been incinerated on the spot."
Last night a massive international hunt for the would-be bombers, feared to be linked to al-Qaeda, was under way. Terror detectives working with MI5 are thought to have a description of the Mercedes driver. They have seized dozens of CCTV tapes from shops and pubs and will trace the car's movements on traffic cameras and through automatic number plate recognition. Propane cylinders carry a serial number identifying the point of sale. The undamaged car will also yield a feast of forensic clues. Officers could have a DNA profile of people linked to the vehicle as early as this morning.
A second suspect Mercedes was left in Cockspur Street, near Trafalgar Square before being towed away by unsuspecting clampers to a car compound off Park Lane.
The first Merc was discovered by chance outside the Tiger Tiger club in Haymarket, in the West End, at 1.30am after an ambulance crew was called to the club to treat a sick partygoer. Paramedics spotted what appeared to be smoke coming from the vehicle. But it was leaking vapour from the gas cylinders. Believing the car was on fire the crew contacted their control room who alerted fire crews and the police. Police were on the scene in minutes.
Our source disclosed: "By the grace of God one of our officers spotted the trigger, realised its significance and literally threw it out of the car. He was a hero. He knew instantly it was a lethal situation. If he'd been standing close by at the moment of blast he'd have ceased to exist." Tiger Tiger was swiftly evacuated.
Alastair Paterson, 25, said: "There were up to 1,000 people on all three floors. Suddenly, the music was turned off and all the lights went up. Doormen and security rushed to escort people out. We were all led out of the building through a side alleyway. I've never seen a place empty so quickly. I saw the car with smoke coming out of the boot. It could have been the next 7/7, it could have been the end. I thank God that I'm still alive."
Mahinthaparan Yogarajah, the manager of a Spa store 50 metres away, said: "We're lucky to be alive as the bomb could have gone off at any time. This area is very busy early in the morning as clubbers leave to go home."
Anti-terror boss Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke hailed the courage of the bomb squad officers. He said: "It's obvious that if the device had detonated there could have been significant injury or loss of life. Not only did the officers' action prevent damage and injury but they gave us opportunities to gather a great deal of forensic and other evidence. We're doing absolutely everything we can to keep the public safe. The threat from terrorism is real and is here. Life must go on but we must all stay alert." Worryingly, he added: "There was no intelligence whatsoever that we were going to be attacked in this way."
Propane canisters contain liquefied propane which when released expands into 200 to 400 times the original size. Mixed with air, it creates a volatile cloud of vapour that is easy to ignite. Hans Michels, Professor of Safety Engineering at Imperial College, London, said last night: "The vapour cloud would fill a big room. When ignited, the effect would be even bigger. In addition to the power of the explosion and the shrapnel, you'd get a fireball the size of a small house. The nails would have been added to slice into people."
Yesterday's drama carried echoes of two previously foiled plots. One aimed to target a London nightclub. The other was linked to the use car bombs.
Words of Hatred On A Website
A MESSAGE on a jihadist website hours before the bombs were found indicates the attack may have been planned by Islamic terrorists. The 300-word entry in the al Hesbah chatroom says: "Today I say: Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed." It was posted by a regular contributor using the name abu Osama al-Hazeen. Al Hesbah is often used by Sunni militants, including al-Qaeda and the Taliban, to post propaganda.
The message begins: "In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful. Is Britain Longing for al Qaeda's bombings?" Al-Hazeen condemns the knighthood for Salman Rushdie and ends "by Allah, London shall be bombed."
New PM Calls Up Big Guns
IN a radical move Gordon Brown appointed Admiral Sir Alan West, former head of the Royal Navy, as the new Home Office Minister for Security. The decision to bring in a military chief known as a hardliner and with extensive experience of the war on terror will be seen as a master stroke. Mr Brown said the bomb drama showed Britain faces "a serious and continuous threat" and added that the public "need to be alert" at all times.
He went on: "The first duty of Government is the security of the people and as the police and security services have said on so many occasions we face a serious and continuous threat to our country. I will stress to the Cabinet that the vigilance must be maintained over the next few days."
Tiger Club 'Is Place To Pull'
TIGER Tiger nightclub has been dubbed "the place to pull in town", according to one review. Described as a "colossal playground for twentysomethings", its early evening happy hours and cocktails draw in large crowds. It had been hosting its Sugar 'n' Spice night when the bomb was found. The club classic and party anthem event was "for women by women featuring Lady H on the decks". At full capacity, the venue can hold 1,770.
Established in the West End in 1998, the over-21s club houses a restaurant, bars and a nightclub. It offers drinking and dancing until 3am. One reviewer remarked: "I have heard that it is, without a doubt, the place to pull in town."
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:31 ||
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#1
IN a radical move Gordon Brown appointed Admiral Sir Alan West, former head of the Royal Navy, as the new Home Office Minister for Security.
The Royal Navy no longer reassures me in the way it might have through my childhood, teens, well, up until they bravely ran away recently.
Admiral Sir Alan West cut an impressive figure in the Falklands; last to leave his sinking ship. Let us hope it is not an omen for future luck.
#2
Do they give out Victoria Crosses to policemen? If not, they should make an exception.
Posted by: Mike ||
07/01/2007 11:18 Comments ||
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#3
I thought the copper who cut the wire was not an 'expert' but the one of the first Met on the scene? In any event, this sort of changes my initial reaction about incompetent Pakis. Seems from this story that the car was professionally rigged but probably driven and shotgunned by amatuers and cold feet idiots.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:34 Comments ||
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#4
Do they give out Victoria Crosses to policemen? If not, they should make an exception.
The VC's like our Medal of Honor in that it's strictly a military decoration for battlefield valor. That being said, the Brits have a more comprehensive system for rewarding non-military heroism. I'd say this cop's a cinch to get one of these.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) ||
07/01/2007 16:30 Comments ||
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#5
thx Ricky, good catch - he deserves one
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 16:31 Comments ||
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#6
Whaddaya say we Knight the guy and see what happens?
POLICE have a "crystal clear" CCTV image of the Haymarket car bomber who they already know, it was claimed last night. Detectives reportedly believe the male suspect was locked up and quizzed over a mass murder plot by convicted al-Qaeda terrorist Dhiren Barot to pack three limos with gas, petrol and nail bombs. The dramatic claim was made by US TV station ABC News.
Officers are understood to have a picture of a man outside the Tiger Tiger club. Last night, specialists were thought to be studying the image with high-tech equipment. The Haymarket is one of the most closely monitored areas in the world. Westminster Council has 160 24-hour CCTV cameras trained across the area. Hundreds more check London's congestion charge and capture the registration plates of every vehicle coming in and out of the zone. Detectives will also be able to scour camera tapes from private venues, such as theatres, clubs and restaurants.
Yesterday's plot has chilling similarities to 34-year-old Barot's conspiracy and another by terrorist Omar Khayam, 25, to blow up Bluewater shopping centre and nightclubs. The pair were snared before they could carry out their cowardly attacks. Barot was jailed for 30 years in December. Khayam was jailed for 40 years earlier this year.
It is now feared yesterday's would-be bombers may have combined the wicked pair's plans to launch an attack. Anti-terror chief Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said last night the Haymarket bomb "resonated with previous plots".
Barot told al-Qaeda chiefs in Pakistan why he favoured using gas canisters for bombs. In a 39-page document, he said: "Gas can be employed to cause large-scale damage to structures since many of them (gas types) are extremely flammable as well as explosive. Since, in the Western world, it is not always possible/feasible to obtain real destructive ingredients (eg common explosives) the project was based on being an improvised explosive device, hence gas."
The proposal - found by Pakistani police on a laptop - coldly stated its aims were "to be able to inflict mass damage and chaos". Barot suggested packing petrol cans with nails to "further maximise the damage caused" and said each cylinder would become a "huge exploding grenade" when detonated.
The Kenyan-born Muslim convert, who lived in North London, also had a plan B. He said: "As a secondary recourse, we are trying to obtain grenades since these may offer better success. I have several times come close to obtaining a few and feel confident, Inshallah (God willing), that I will be able to get my hands on some in the near future."
Barot wanted each limo to contain a dozen 47kg cylinders of propane gas and ordered the bomb raids to be carried out simultaneously. He concluded: "Projects are to be co-ordinated back to back - as they were with 9/11 - thus forming another black day for the enemies of Islam." Barot was arrested in 2004 after a tip-off by Pakistani police. His seven followers were jailed two weeks ago.
In a bugged conversation, Khayam and Jawad Akbhar discussed bombing the packed Ministry of Sound, in South London. Khayam, of Crawley, West Sussex, asked: "If you got a job in a bar, yeah, or club, say the Ministry of Sound, what are you planning to do there then?"
Akbhar replied: "Blow the whole thing up." Police are not sure the Tiger Tiger club was the target of the latest bomb plot because there are other nightspots nearby. However, a source said: "We know al-Qaeda-style terrorists have spoken about targeting nightclubs and, specifically, women."
Police are appalled by the threat of car bombs because of their destructive power.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
The Haymarket is one of the most closely monitored areas in the world. Westminster Council has 160 24-hour CCTV cameras trained across the area.
Yet, even this level of surveillance cannot discourage the murderous assaults of Islamic terrorists. What does this say for the prospects of thwarting (what shall soon become), everyday terrorism?
Police are appalled by the threat of car bombs because of their destructive power.
Yet, they remain even more appalled at daring to connect the dots between their Muslim population and the near-constant threat of vicious atrocities.
#3
Rapid detection, pursuit and arrest following a crime is fine when you are trying to catch bank robbers or drug pushers. Also, the high arrest and conviction rates can discourage potential perpetrators.
But suicidal terrorists do not fear any punishment the law can inflict so the efficacy of law enforcement will not discourage them. And since their objective is to inflict as much carnage and destruction as possible, it is critical to stop them before they can carry out their mission.
This will require a change in approach far beyond making our law enforcement capabilities more robust. It requires a combination of things which are already extant to various degrees:
1. Secure borders
2. National ID cards
3. Domestic surveillance
4. Denial of national entry to those with an undesirable ideology (or theology) linked to terrorism
5. Political, economic and military interdiction abroad in failed states/state sponsors of terrorism and possibly targeted killings of foreign terrorist planners/agents based on intel
Sadly, a number of highly lethal attacks will probably take place in our Western nations before sufficiently serious countermeasures are taken. The lesson I take from the events of the past few days is that we have collectively made strides in security but our greatest ally has been luck and the incompetence of our enemy.
Especially if you refuse to remove Muslims from within your society. Any bets on terrorism dropping by over 90% in a society where there are no Muslims? You bet this is nasty. Guess what? Terrorism is even nastier and there must be an end to it. Muslims are the single largest source of terrorism and until they themselves begin doing something to reverse that statistic, they should be excluded from civilized society.
But suicidal terrorists do not fear any punishment the law can inflict so the efficacy of law enforcement will not discourage them. And since their objective is to inflict as much carnage and destruction as possible, it is critical to stop them before they can carry out their mission.
Which is simply impossible. Open society precludes the opportunity to avert clandestine terrorist attacks. While such measures as secure borders, national ID cards and the like will help reduce terrorist attacks, they cannot ensure against them. Sadly, the absence of Muslims is one of the few things that will reduce terrorist attacks by several orders of magnitude. Were there other equally effective strategies, I would cheerfully support them. Quite simply, there are not. Witness the dramatic reduction in bomb vest attacks now that Israel's security fence excludes the presence of unwanted Muslims.
#6
Just out of curiosity, is there any political party in Britain or the rest of Europe for that matter, that is advocating a serious solution to the "Muslim Problem"? (ie. expelling them).
only the national front in france and BNP in UK.however we are bombarded by BBC types telling us these are hoodlums/extremist.To my mind they are the only ones willing to stand up to the enemy within!!!!
Posted by: Paul ||
07/01/2007 7:09 Comments ||
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#8
"We know al-Qaeda-style terrorists have spoken about targeting nightclubs and, specifically, women."
Once the public fully understand this fact, the government had better have taken sterner measures than any that have been tried thus far (in a democracy). It will be lynchings and mass reprisals.
At that point we find out if the power of the State will once again be used to prevent its own citizenry from defending itself as the whole topples into a new islamic Dark Age.
Zenster: I believe you are showing great moderation in your discussion of this latest outrage. My suggestions are currently illegal... One day they will either be mandatory or irrelevant to Rantburg readers as the lot of us shall be dead or fighting on from the hills.
#9
Adding to #3:
6. Separation from muslims by large distances.
Posted by: ed ||
07/01/2007 8:35 Comments ||
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#10
But suicidal terrorists do not fear any punishment the law can inflict
Bloody posturing nonsense. There's nothing the terrorists fear more, deep in their hearts, than ending up maimed and in solitary confinement for the rest of their long, long lives. No end to the pain, no virgins at the end of it, and no mates to impress with ever more viciously unrealistic plans for world conquest.
Nope, nope, nope... the FN base is anti-immigration and anti-islam and would love to have muslim shipped back to their countries, but the FN itself never advocated more than halting immigration and reserving jobs and social services for french (the catch being the immigrants born in France are french too, this ambiguity never was resolved, and was used to try very unsuccessfully to attract the migrant vote this year).
In all aspects, it was assimilationist, and the new strategy it follows since 2002 is to even reduce that to integrationsim, JMLP said during the presidential campaign that he saw islam as a factor of social cohesiveness in the 'hoods, he had a publicized venture into an islamized area to tell the inhabitants they were french, and that he would help them integrate into society.
Of course, this "normalization" of the FN, and its leftization (the party's ideologist and one adviser were part of a symposium recently, with the main guest being a general from venezuela, come to expose the chavez revolution's ideals... think about it, the new reference for the new FN is chavez...) have been badly perceived by the base, all the while sarko was acting like if he was a conservative and a rightwinger, so the FN is in serious decline, and in dire internal crisis and in the way of becoming a cult around the aging and dictatorial JMLP and his spawn (with hindsight, he was a terrible, terrible thing to happen to the white national movement, from his unwillingless to actually try to get in power, to his antisemite bon mots).
Believe me, there's no political party in France that advocate mass expellations. In the current situation, this is IMPOSSIBLE (and like Roger Holeindre, one very interesting FN biggie said, "there's too many of them, and they're french")... and the day it will become possible to advocate it, then, we all will have shifted paradigm, and will be in a whole system/situation altogether. Basically, we'll be in pre-civil & ethnic war. Not a pleasant thought.
#15
Until there is real peace and powersharing in Ulster, getting rid of all the Muzzies in the UK will not necessarily make the UK safe from terrorism. Their experience with the IRA goes back a lot further than the current crop of terrorists. The IRA even got close to Maggie, remember?
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:45 Comments ||
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#16
Good point, JiB. Britain's resolution of The Troubles would finally allow them to decouple any ambiguity as to the origin of future terrorist attacks. Until then I suppose we can always rely upon the bloodyminded Muslims to trumpet their responsibility.
#17
I confess I am bit baffled at what appears to be an ongoing blind spot toward the IRA amongst many Americans. There is no ambiguity about pakistani men shouting "allah". Even the worst of the IRA's attacks - including the ones which discredited them amongst Irish "nationalists" in Ireland if not in the States - were nothing compared to the calculated barbarity of the muslims. For all that the IRA targeted, for example, Harrod's as part of its fatuous armed struggle they never set out to slaughter women in nightclubs, rape schoolchildren or manufacture snuff videos for the internet. The IRA's Catholic fascism-with-a-Marxist-veneer and, for that matter, the Protestant death-squads and their sympathizers in the Ulster security forces maintained still had limits as to what they would do.
But as for the ambiguity: muslims are not subtle and they are not terribly bright. After the fact many will simultaneously claim credit for an attack while blaming it on the Jews (as will the traitor left and the BBC). But the actual culprits almost invariably make a home video for their Orc god before setting out to kill. Aside from a hypersensitive media I doubt any future attack will vary so much in its MO that there will be any lasting doubt as to the authors of the grisly work.
#20
I submit for you the stunning example of the 41,000 Somali's who were admitted to the US legally last year. 95% Sunni, literally from a lawless state with no background checks because none are possible given the fragmented, chaotic, virtually non-existent government there. Further, almost certainly illiterate or marginally educated, clannish to the extreme, experienced in virtually nothing except crime and corruption given the nature of the cultural milieu they come from, and concentrating in Minnesota, San Diego and New Jersey. Gang crime and violence, intolerant behavior towards non-muslims.... do we really want them coming here?
Posted by: Just AboutEnough ||
07/01/2007 17:34 Comments ||
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#21
no, we don't. Contact your congresscritter and demand accountability!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 17:44 Comments ||
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#22
There were quite a few Bantu's from Somalia in Fort Wayne when I lived there from 2000 to 2006. I never noticed their involvement in any gang violence. They were good citizens. Note - there was plent of meth related crime in the rural outskirts and several gang related shootings in the urban areas.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 17:45 Comments ||
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U.S. law enforcement officials received intelligence reports two weeks ago warning of a possible terror attack in Glasgow against "airport infrastructure or aircraft," a senior US law enforcement officials tells the Blotter on ABCNews.com. The intelligence reports also warned that airports and aircraft in the Czech Republic could be the targets of al Qaeda-connected terrorists.
The warnings were kept secret for operational reasons, according to officials. In public, the White House and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff have continued to maintain they know of no specific or credible threats involving the United States, even though the intelligence reports specify US aircraft as possible targets.
A US official told ABCNews.com that the intelligence reports led to the assignment of Federal Air Marshals to flights into and out of both Glasgow and Prague. Air marshals had been added to flights into and out of Germany late last month, based on similar warnings.
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
Can't keep this info secret that we saw it coming and managed to warn them, gotta give it away!
Anyway, now that it's out there, I wonder if the Patriot Act had anything to do with it? And if it will be given any credit. And if it did have anything to do with it, if the idealists would not have acted on the information because it was obtained "immorally".
#2
A US official told ABCNews.com that the intelligence reports led to the assignment of Federal Air Marshals to flights into and out of both Glasgow and Prague. Air marshals had been added to flights into and out of Germany late last month, based on similar warnings.
Prague and Germany, too? I'm awfully glad Mr. Wife is back from his last round of peregrinations, and not due to go out again for a while.
A suspect device was found on one of the men who were in the car that slammed into a Glasgow Airport terminal, forcing the evacuation of the hospital in which he was being treated, said Scottish Police Chief Constable Willie Rae. The other man was under arrest. Police would not comment on the device or say whether it could have been a planned suicide attack. "I can confirm that we believe the incident at Glasgow airport is linked to the events in London yesterday," Rae said. "There are clearly similarities and we can confirm that this is being treated as a terrorist incident."
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
"There are clearly similarities and we can confirm that this is being treated as a terrorist incident."
#2
It's easy to be absolutely passionately violently and relentlessless repetitively certain about things from behind a keyboard.
For those who are actually tasked with getting the analysis right and doing something to prevent further attacks it's probably a good idea to go beyond first impressions, gather forensics data, put together intel gathered in the last 48 hours ...
You know, that sort of boring stuff from the real world, where posturing is less important than accuracy. And where statements by officials carry weight and consequences.
#3
Glasgow is about the dumbest place in the UK to do this (Belfast is probably the worst). There are already sectarian divides in Glasgow - the 'Old Firm' clashes between Celtic/Rangers have been brutal in the past (rumours of grenades! being involved in the 1920's), and the guys today are no strangers to violence.
Here's an example of Rangers fans going mad when the Celtic goalie blesses himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-zAFWGu-gc And just for 'balance' here's some Celtic fans doing much the same http://youtube.com/watch?v=d5VgOumuNhs
Basically, I think the Muslim community in Glasgow can count itself very lucky that the attack did not go of as these guys wanted.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/01/2007 7:16 Comments ||
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#4
Yes he was carrying a suspicious device - a copy of the Koran.
#5
A suspect device was found on one of the men who were in the car that slammed into a Glasgow Airport terminal, forcing the evacuation of the hospital in which he was being treated
Spanish police acting on a telephoned bomb threat evacuated Ibiza airport in the Balearic islands on Saturday, and later used a controlled explosion to detonate a suspicious package, airport officials and press reports said.
While authorities did not immediately say who they believed was behind the incident, reports on the Web sites of dailies El Pais, El Mundo and La Vanguardia's said three warnings had been received by Basque newspaper Gara, which violent Basque separatist group ETA often uses as a conduit for bomb warnings.
A spokeswoman for the AENA airport authority, which controls Spain's airports, said the airport had been closed to outgoing and incoming flights. The bomb threat was made just weeks after ETA called off a 15-month cease-fire, blaming the government for refusing to make concessions in the peace process and warning it was once again becoming active "on all fronts."
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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A terminal at New York's John F Kennedy International Airport was briefly evacuated after the discovery of a suspicious package, officials said. The package was found at 1020 local time (1520 GMT) but the city's bomb squad found it to be harmless and containing cologne. The evacuation affected the American Airlines terminal.
New York and New Jersey port authority spokesman Steve Coleman said authorities had taken "a number of measures as we always do to respond to security situations immediately". Terminal operations returned to normal within an hour and no flights were affected, officials said.
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 13:45 ||
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#1
cologne, huh? Obviously not a muzzy attack
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 14:13 Comments ||
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At least three people were killed and 45 wounded on Saturday in four separate explosions in Indias restive northeast, officials said. Two explosions took place in crowded markets of Tinsukia town, about 510 kilometres east of the state of Assams main city of Guwahati. Two civilians were killed and about 19 people - including 10 policemen - were injured in the two explosions, P Bhuyan, police chief of Tinsukia district, told AFP by telephone.
The explosives were concealed inside pressure cookers, he said. Police had located one of the devices and were evacuating people from the site when it went off, he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
I'm beginning to think that India ranks along side Israel in terms of showing admirableif not almost foolishrestraint when it comes to how they deal with their Islamic neighbor's incessant crapulence. It remains a source of deep shame that America showed such lackluster response to the terrorist assault upon India's parliament so soon on the heels of our own 9-11 attacks. That Pakistan was not immediately converted into smoking glass remains almost a mystery.
Posted by: ed ||
07/01/2007 8:31 Comments ||
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#4
Yeah, they should cut the crapulence and slit there throats. I know you didn't say that. So in the future remember, I didn't say that you said that. Got that? Hammerhead?
#12
I disagree. So far it appears to have value. The mania seems to be toning down and that, so far as I can tell, is the purpose of sharkweek.
If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 11:18 Comments ||
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#13
LOL! You jumped me the first day you were here. I laughed.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 11:43 Comments ||
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#19
Mike N, this is what you stated: If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.
Please be specific as the part about American black muslims is concerned. Who said that and please link.
As for the radical immigrant muslims, as far as I know, we don't kill them, detaining and booting them out goes on so so.
#20
You do understand that Muslim and Islam includes all followers of Islam and I'm also certain that you are well aware that a portion of our domestic black population is Allanist.
If you don't know who has been calling for the removal of Americas Muslims, you're not paying attention to the comments.
Okay, so we're not killing any domestic terrorists yet. Slap me for it, but expect to be reminded when one of them decides he doesn't want to be arrested.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 12:03 Comments ||
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#21
I am a busy man. Please be helpful and point out the specific quote.
Of course, question is what would you do (or agree what would need to be done) in the case that black American muslims will become radicalized, you know...splodeys and that?
My opinion is that Islam has to go. The sooner the better. Please note that I don't say muslims. Islam. How, I don't know, but it is on my mind every day. If we don't get a rid of it, then our children will curse us and dark ages are to follow.
There was evidence that the killing spree was generally motivated by a long racial/religious hatred he'd built up. But it wasn't the work of a wider terror group and so did not get that treatment. That is no doubt due in part to the fact that Farahkan disavowed the killings early on.
Changing his name to Muhammad in October 2001, he was a member of the Nation of Islam for a time; friends say Muhammad helped provide security for Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in 1995, but Farrakhan has publicly distanced himself and his organization from Muhammad's actions[1]. It was theorized that Muhammad left the Nation of Islam around 1999 and then joined Jamaat al-Fuqra, a black militant Islamic group[2]. However, later investigations indicated that he moved out of the country and spent time in Antigua during this period, apparently engaging in credit card and immigration document fraud activities. It was during this time that he became close with a young teenage boy, Lee Boyd Malvo, who later became his partner in the serial killings.
After his arrest, authorities also claimed that Muhammad admitted that he admired and modeled himself after Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, and approved of the September 11, 2001 attacks. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified in his trial that Muhammad had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only young, "pure" black people somewhere in Canada.
#24
2x4, I'm on a cell phone so I can't do the cut and paste thingy. I had a discussion about this in the comments here at the burg on Thursday I believe it was. I'm sure it was by far the most heavily commented thread that day. If you care to take a look, it will be an easy find.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 12:30 Comments ||
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#25
It remains a source of deep shame that America showed such lackluster response to the terrorist assault upon India's parliament so soon on the heels of our own 9-11 attacks.
If you had access to intelligence (the information kind), an American 'robust response' was what Al Qaeda expected.
#28
anon5089, you're right about the zebra killings. I guess I mentally file those in the "1960s-1970s radical black group" folder rather than the "black Muslim jihad" folder, but in the case of the Nation of Islam those categories merge.
#30
Shipman, I missed Shark Week last year. Do you actually stay awake an continue posting for the entire week?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 13:18 Comments ||
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#31
If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.
Mike N., your adherence to "civil well-reasoned discourse" is much appreciated. One very simple question:
Do you agree or disagree that shari'a law and its practice should be banned as a violation of human rights?
Of course, question is what would you do (or agree what would need to be done) in the case that black American muslims will become radicalized, you know...splodeys and that?
As lotp noted, this has already happened. While its scale has not wholly exceeded the capacity of our law enforcement, we still remain vulnerable to the Sulejman Talovics of this world. The increasing levels of SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome) represent a horrible degradation in American quality of life. I'll not deny that internment camps or mass deportations wouldn't represent a horrible degradation in the life of American Muslims, but neither will I ignore the fact that a massive number of them consider themselves enemies of America despite dwelling upon our soil.
My opinion is that Islam has to go. The sooner the better. Please note that I don't say muslims. Islam. How, I don't know, but it is on my mind every day. If we don't get a rid of it, then our children will curse us and dark ages are to follow.
I concur, Islam must go. Especially Islamic theocracy, but Islam as a whole is a failed concept that serves only to create misery wherever it goes. America's efforts in Iraq are entirely admirable regarding the importation of democracy to the MME (Muslim Middle East). While the jury's still out with respect to Iraq's successful adoption of democracy, it seems rather clear that this is an experiment we cannot afford to conduct on the sort of repeated basis needed to pacify the entire MME.
This is why, at present, I advocate an end to all nation building and initiating a policy of simply smashing terrorist sponsors and letting them pick up the pieces themselves. As noted above, what we are doing right now will has repercussions for decades, if not centuries. Islam has declared itself a threat to over a thousand years' progress and we are obliged to take them at their word.
Note:So far it appears to have value.
Then you aren't paying attention. It is courteous exchanges with people like Frank G and yourself that go a long way. Preadolescent bullying cuts no ice with me.
#32
Zen, I stated a couple days ago and will state again that sharia should not be allowed.
As for radicalized black Muslims, I don't see them being in a higher percentage than radicalized blacks in general, or whites for that matter. After all, whitey has committed his share of terror attacks in this country and so far, blacks come in third by my count. Radicalized blacks are a phenomenon I am only slighly more concerned with than radicalized Asians. What about radicalized white Muslims? Remember Johnny Bin Laden?
As for making Islam go, that's even less possible than humans growing a couple more arms. Genetic engineering might someday make that happen. Removing a major faith is not possible. If anyone has any questions about that last statement, talk to a joo to about it. I suspect they should be able to explain it in short order.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 15:17 Comments ||
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#33
Sharia? Not for a f*&king minute. Never said different
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 15:23 Comments ||
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#34
I stated a couple days ago and will state again that sharia should not be allowed.
All righty then. Please indicate how you are able to decouple shari'a law from Islam. They are one in the same and Muslims certainly will not tolerate any attempts to prevent its practice.
Would you support a ban on all Internet sites that provide the endlessly detailed and often ridiculous fatwan regarding Islamic worship's minutae? Those fatwan represent shari'a law in action.
Most importantly, once shari'a law is banned, what should become of those who oppose it's illegality and continue to practice it?
#36
Removing a major faith is not possible. If anyone has any questions about that last statement, talk to a joo to about it. I suspect they should be able to explain it in short order.
It's spelled j-e-w, just FYI.
We have to find the way. There were some major religions in the past that don't exist anymore. Judaism persistence is explainable by the match of its moral mooring with universal human values--what Ali Sina calls Golden Rule. No enforcement was necessary to preserve the creed.
Islam, if you look closer, it the 180 degree opposite.
#37
Please indicate how you are able to decouple shari'a law from Islam. They are one in the same and Muslims certainly will not tolerate any attempts to prevent its practice
see? This is the kind of facile crap reasoning I was pointing out. Some Islamic followers want Sharia. A majority? All? No, and no, and you can't say it is, because it isn't. That's a Zen Strawman and you know it. Try an intellectually honest argument rather than bumperstickers. I know muslims who practice Sharia as much as my fellow Catholics don't practice birth control. Jeebus!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 15:56 Comments ||
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#38
Forgive me for sounding like a prominent democrat, but it depends on what you mean by decouple. We can't regulate the human mind. All we can regulate is the consequence human actions. For starters, I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 16:01 Comments ||
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#39
Frank, you on one hand equate muslims with Islam and on another you make a distinction between them.
Islam not equals muslims. The fact that some muslims do not want sharia actually may be the path that would lead to its demise, or may be helpful in that regard.
They do not want sharia because of Islam, but despite of it.
#40
Mike N, good luck. Islam is like MS Windoze, by design. You can't get a rid of the IE browser, just elect not to use it. But it is a part of the whole and spagettied through it.
#41
2x4. Enjoy your quest to make Islam go down the memory hole. Start with Palestine, I'm sure the Joos would appreciate not being under attack everyday of their lives. Before you go spending a lot of effort on it though, you might want to give some thought to technological advances since the last time a religion disappeared. Things like literacy, paper and computers are going to complicate the challenge.
Nice job correcting me on Jew, by the way. How many others have you corrected for spelling it that way?
Thought so.
If you wish to debate me, you'll need more than what you've brought. I won't let you emote your way to victory.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 16:12 Comments ||
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#42
your comment in toto made no sense. This sentence: "The fact that some muslims do not want sharia actually may be the path that would lead to its demise, or may be helpful in that regard" did. A wedge between Islamists and muslims* (*- my definition) should be applied as heavily as possible to split away the "moderate muslims". They exist. We can do it
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 16:13 Comments ||
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#44
Mike, when others spell it that way when imitating the haters in sarc remarks, it's understandable. But I object when it is spelled that way in normal discourse. Makes sense?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 16:18 Comments ||
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#46
I apologize for offended you.
Back to Sharia. "The Church" provides rules for a person to live. These rules can be followed as long as they are permitted within the rules of the state. Christianity learned this, after considerable difficulty, several hundred years ago. Considering Islams relative youth, Islam is learning this right on schedule. And learn it will.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 16:24 Comments ||
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#47
And learn it will.
Agreed, and it will prolly be via the "hard way". I'm not against that. It needs to be done, and whatever way that works (STFU CAIR and ACLU!). I just don't buy into "all muslims are bad and need deporting/rounding up in concentration camps/killing". I may be proven wrong in the future, but until that date, I'm set
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 16:28 Comments ||
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#48
Frank, maybe this way... I say Islam and you understand muslims. Thus Islam = muslims.
Then you make a distinction between Islam and muslims.
IOW, it seems that you are inconsistent. Once again, the key word here is seems.
Now, to the moderate muslims. I wish there was more of them, but they seem to be rather rare. I mean the true moderate muslims, born into Islam, but in the course of exchange of ideas they realized that many parts of their creed are barbaric. They tend to eventually leave Islam once the realization what Islam as a whole represents sinks in completely.
Most of the other muslims that seem to be moderate are just bidding their time, practicing one of the half-pillars of Islam, called kitman or taqiyya.
A recent poll... Consider that about 60% of British muslims would welcome sharia. Most of them would be considered "moderate". An objection could be countered that they have a very little idea what that entails, and under it's rule they may start feeling at least ambivalent about it, as it has it's utopian appeal. But that figure also tells you that if muslims become a majority in UK, it is very likely that sharia would be imposed by default. Once in place, it is a multi-headed hydra, very difficult to slay.
#50
2x4, your polling data suggests that 40 percent of Muslims in the UK don't support Sharia.
What do you think the percentage is for Muslims in the ME?
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 16:41 Comments ||
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#51
If you make it painful enough, Islam can be either eliminated or reduced to such a miniscule level that it no longer poses a threat. Several "major" religions have been virtually wiped out. They include most of the Roman/Greek, Druid, Baal, and Zoroastrianism cults, the Mayan and Inca religions, along with dozens more we've never even heard of from pre-recorded history. It would require devastation equal to the destruction of the Aztecs and Incas, or the pre-contact religions of the Pacific Islanders, would be messy and guilt-ridden, but it CAN be done. I'm not sure we've reached that point yet, but if the muzzies keep pushing, we might.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/01/2007 16:54 Comments ||
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#52
Mike, well the under is that about 23% had no opinion either way and the over is that god gracious there are some that say hell no (the rest, about 17%).
Overall, that bodes not well.
As for ME, I don't know. Iraq is a testing lab for the idea that basic human values can be injected into a society. Whether it works is still in a crystal ball. I hope so and it may catch up. The attempts of imposition of sharia in the areas AQ ruled may have left a bitter taste in the people subjected to it.
It is possible that we will be successfull and the Iraq paradigm would spread in ME, although we may not be allowed to complete the task if isolationism gets its sway and then all will be lost.
Paradoxically, we may lose Europe in the meanwhile.
#53
For starters, I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.
While I agree with you, I also maintain that a vast number of Muslims would view this as tantamount to the banning of Islam itself. For instance, segregation of women's prayer areas in mosques could be deemed discriminatory. Should a woman attempt to pray in the men's area and was injured or threatened, legal action would be appropriate. Thusly, a gigantic can of worms is opened. From all indications, the Islamic can of worms desperately needs to be opened and subjected to the light of day.
Frank, I am not intentionally trying to set up any sort of straw man argument. I feel that you strongly underestimate just how many Muslims regard Islam and shari'a as inseparable. I'd wager that those "moderate" Muslims you know are by far a tiny minority.
I think twobyfour makes an important point of how other hostile creeds have disappeared throughout history. Likewise with noting how Judaism survives by dint of its ethically valid doctrine. The Jews did nothing to deserve arrival of the Holocaust. Islam shares no such innocence in its lust for genocide against the Jews and destruction of the West.
Considering Islams relative youth, Islam is learning this right on schedule.
Relative youth? Islam has been around nearly as long as Christianity without undergoing anything remotely approaching the same degree of progress or modification needed to adapt into pluralist society. In fact, Islam has done everything possible to avoid, prohibit and deter any such adaptation or reform. This is why I take such a dim view of its prospects for survival. Why are we Infidels obliged to show any patience with a group of people who are largely committed to the death of Western civilization?
#54
I'm not European so its not a major deal to me. If Europe wants to give the store away, that's their fault.
This time though, I say we don't keep Russia back. The war between Russia and Europe is currently on hold and we shouldn't work too hard to keep it that way if the muzzies get Europe.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 17:02 Comments ||
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#55
I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.
As I asked before, Mike N.:
Would you support a ban on all Internet sites that provide the endlessly detailed and often ridiculous fatwan regarding Islamic worship's minutae? Those fatwan represent shari'a law in action.
#56
Christianity started with Jesus. It is a helluva lot older than Islam.
As for removing Islam, read my post above concerning technology and keep in mind that Islam is not a regional religion like the ones that have gove away.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 17:06 Comments ||
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#57
Depends on the site, Zen. If the site is telling its readers to usurp the state, then yes. Beyond that, it's pointless. Today it's not possible to repress information that has been around for 1400+ years.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 17:10 Comments ||
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#58
Mike, the diff is about 6 and half centuries.
There was something like a reformation in Islam between 11th and 12th centuries. Ibn Rushd comes to mind as the ideological representative of that trend. Unfortunately, the traditionalists (or fundamentalists if I were to use the somewhat incorrect label in fashion) got their way, and closed any potential breaches in the doctrine real well, cementing a circular system akin to catch 22. It is not possible to reform it. Chrisitanity's reformations always sourced on the original roots.
Islam is the opposite, it is the radical Islamism that goes back to roots for nourishment.
#60
If the site is telling its readers to usurp the state, then yes.
This then beggars the question: Does the Koran demand that Muslims overthrow all other governments and religions? Short answer: Yes. Agree or disagree?
#61
Interesting debate going on in this thread. I would say that Zenster scores an irrefutable point in post #60.
The uncomfortable truth is that Islamic fundamentalism is incompatible with democracy because immodifiable Koranic scripture demands the establishment of a caliphate and the assassination of apostates. What logically follows is this: the only Muslims we can permit to live within our societies are not true Muslims, but some watered down inauthentic version. And as Zenster has repeatedly taken pains to point out in the past, the practice of taqiyya makes distinguishing between both types virtually impossible.
We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry.
We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry.
This is the same conclusion that I have arrived at in the past few months. Islam's categorical lack of redeeming values makes eliminating such a hostile and anti-democratic ideology nothing less than an obligation to future generations of Americans.
Shipass, Never, NEVER try to start a battle of wits, you're unarmed.
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
07/01/2007 19:55 Comments ||
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#65
We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry. This is the key.Islam is not just a religious movement but also a political one. It is a totalitarian movement. The religious and political elements are inseparable. Also the political and military. How do you practice separation of Church and State when, under Islam, there is no such separation? Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
07/01/2007 19:56 Comments ||
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#66
Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know.
Deac, all of us need to begin addressing this issue. There needs to be some sort of concensus so that a unanimous front can be presented to the more monolithic one that Islam presents. No, Islam is not wholely monolithic, but its overall doctrine turns it into a jihadist juggernaut that represents a grave danger to the West. Let's work together and create a unified position regarding this Islamic crapulence.
PS: Has anyone else noticed how the opposition gets all quiet once the finer points of this debate emerge?
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
07/01/2007 20:15 Comments ||
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#68
Speaking for myself alone, and not as a Mod:
Zen, one reason "the opposition" might get quiet about this point is that your black and white assumptions make discussion pretty much impossible, beyond simple agreement with you.
For instance, the relationship of Sharia to Islam is not nearly so settled a matter as you present, for many Muslims I know. Nor is it obvious to me that Islam should and must be reduced to its Wahabist and Salafist fringe, which reduction is central to the course of your regular chain of argument.
I could go on, but I have little hope that there would be meaningful dialogue, based on the history of posts here.
#69
I have to disagree, lotp. Islam is monolithic. A comparison can be made to some elements of Christianity. I vividly remember the fight in Houston County, Alabama to vote the County dry. No alcohol would be sold. all the Christian Churches were directing their congregations to vote dry, thereby forcing their religious views on everyone. The wet/dry proposition was decided in favor of wet, by the way. The difference I see is that under Islam there would be no vote. No one has a choice.Islam reigns supreme. This is not monolithic? What would happen if I, as a Christian, demanded religious facilities at sports stadiums or airports? The point I make is that Christians accept the will of the majority. You don't have to drink alchol, it's a personal choice. Under Islam there is no choice.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
07/01/2007 20:46 Comments ||
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#70
your black and white assumptions make discussion pretty much impossible, beyond simple agreement with you
Then why is it that I always invite open discussion and alternative views on such subjects, lotp? You demonstrated far less intellectual honesty when I attempted to inform you about how Taj al-Hilali was nothing near a "moderate" Muslim.
For instance, the relationship of Sharia to Islam is not nearly so settled a matter as you present, for many Muslims I know.
And, as with, Frank G, does that necessarily mean your own accounting of Muslim "tolerance" amounts to anything more than a personal viewpoint? I realize that my own less-than-favorable views are subject to similar assessments but, at least, they are backed by majority findings in many international polls.
Nor is it obvious to me that Islam should and must be reduced to its Wahabist and Salafist fringe
Save that, regardless of demographics, these are the ones who want to inflict nuclear terrorist attacks against the West. How do we manage to ameliorate such a dire threat against us? Do tell.
I could go on, but I have little hope that there would be meaningful dialogue
That's your problem and not mine. I've repeatedly demonstrated the moral courage to engage you in polite debate. You've already run away once before when confronted with an exposure of your own intellectual dishonesty. Feel free to continue doing the same.
#71
Sorry to be so quiet, Zenster, but your ratio of total bandwidth to "finer points of this debate" approaches infinity and quite frankly bores me. I just skim your stuff now and then (nothing new anyway) to see if you need another slap to preserve the integrity of Rantburg.
#72
For all of you that think the religion of Islam can't be separated from the state, I would suggest looking at the last 87 years of Turkish history.
If the decoupling of Islam and the state is seen as some sort of self evident impossibility, then there is nothing more for us to discuss. That assumption does not survive an honest, factual evaluation.
I would also point out that its foolish to expect all followers of a religion to leave religion out of politics. Right here in the good ole US of A we have more religious groups influencing politics than I have fingers and toes.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 21:05 Comments ||
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#73
And, as with, Frank G, does that necessarily mean your own accounting of Muslim "tolerance" amounts to anything more than a personal viewpoint?
It means I have personal experience and have had discussions on the topic over approx. 20 years now with Muslims from a variety of birthplaces who hold a range of beliefs about the applicability, nature and content of Sharia.
Deacon, my experience is that Islam is NOT monolithic. However, the Wahabists and Salafists would certainly like it to be and push that claim hard.
Yes, there are significant threats to our country, economy and way of life posed by some Muslims, encouraged by some interpretations of the Qu'ran. We need wisdom and courage to deal with them.
The beginning of wisdom is to collect factual information. Do some extremists want to use nuclear weapons against us? In a heartbeat, if they could.
Can they? Maybe. Not likely, but possible. More likely IMO are attempts at radiological contamination (dirty bomb), chemical attacks or eventually attempts at biological attacks (perhaps with genetically engineered diseases). T
It's interesting that you chose the word 'ameliorate' Zenster. It acknowledges that there are tradeoffs between risk and the costs and uncertainty of measures we might take to manage those risks. Expelling or trying to kill all Muslims isn't a risk management approach, it's an attempt at a magic wand -- one that I find repugnant morally and that is quite likely to fail in the attempt, not least because others who find it repugnant would resist your attempt.
Which leaves us with the need to weave a network of approaches, some tactical (such as the radiological and other scans we are putting in place in many ports), some more strategic (such as the role of financial tracking and sanctions in throttling the flow of cash to jihadi cells).
Certainly there is a lot more we could and should be doing. One of them is a public debate on the risks and tradeoffs. That's not easy to do when many on both sides wish to polarize the discussion from the start.
#74
"Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know."
-heck, I'd settle for rendering it inert at this point. Seems that some on this site are for the elimination of the ideology and some just want to see it modernized into a benign belief system akin to buddhism (not in substance but hopefully in style). I'd settle for either option.
I've been to Iraq twice and grew up next to Dearborn, MI prior to my USMC life; I know the muzzies well. Imho - islam is garbage, sunni, shia, whatever, garbage (although I'm no fan of any org religion in general, islam is hands down the worst of the biggies) arab tribal culture is also pretty much garbage. Is islam a better product away from the tribal component - I'm not sure, maybe that would help. Are there mod muzzies out there? I'm sure there is as I've met a few, however if you tacitly condone your coreligionists I do not trust you. I'd also be disconcerted if 60% of any demographic said they wanted something as stupid as sharia law instituted. Imho, if islam really just stuck to it's 5 pillars like it proclaims - it prolly be okay. I ultimately don't give a rat's ass what any man believes, prolly like most of you on here - just keep your spittle away from my kids.
More to the point of answering the deac's question - my personal experiences w/the Avg American is that they have no clue about islam in even the most minute form that those of us on the 'berg do. So I'd start there -
step 1 - education of what islam really is (no p.c. rop nonsense allowed). To include simultaneous debunking of the origins of islam from a scientific and philosophical viewpoint. Including accurate historical accounts of the bloodshed, rapes, and other exploits of young mohammad & it's impact on the cultures of the region. Every nasty skeleton would be brought to light but in a very dispassionate, logical, and methodical way. Maybe have a documentary and or lecture series like all the self-critiques I've seen done of christianity. Circulate it via all the mass comm mediums you can imagine in our country and the world. That's just my introductory education angle. Of course, you'd have the obligatory muslim riots and cair spittles but that would prolly just put more bullets in our magazines. Whatever happens (islam calls for violence) when using the media form, the authors must never apologize to those who *feel offended* - ever. Pope Benedict screwed up imho, even w/the nuance of his apology which I did get.
It would take me a whole 'nother page to go over my more "kinetic" angles. Those would be predicated on the actions the enemy takes, violent or staging.
Overall, until the mere mention of islam is on par w/the word nazi or KKK in the minds of average Americans there will be no marginalizing the ideology.
#75
That's your problem and not mine. I've repeatedly demonstrated the moral courage to engage you in polite debate. You've already run away once before when confronted with an exposure of your own intellectual dishonesty. Feel free to continue doing the same.
Actually, the last time I posted a sustantive response you merely called me "intellectually dishonest" as if that proved something and then ignored it.
#76
The attention whore's whole point is attention. The topic could be crackerjacks, uranium cookware or Islam the topic doesn't make a difference.
A sick narcissistic attention whore even thrives on whithering negative attention. It suits the attention whore just fine because it too still still feeds the beast.
The all to obvious attention whore here at the 'Burg would switch to Islam before it was starved of attention.
#77
Zen, what the Koran instructs its followers to do is of little relevance. What its followers do is very relavent. Go through your copy of the Bible and you'll find some despicable things in there as well. Sure, not nearly as many, but there just the same. The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.
In short, the answer to your question is, "Doesn't matter."
As for the opposition getting quiet, it wasn't because I didn't want to respond to a false premise being trumpetted as a finer point, it was because I had better shit to do.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/01/2007 21:35 Comments ||
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#78
Sorry to be so quiet, Zenster, but your ratio of total bandwidth to "finer points of this debate" approaches infinity and quite frankly bores me. I just skim your stuff now and then (nothing new anyway) to see if you need another slap to preserve the integrity of Rantburg.
Likewise, I'm sure. Lack of contamination by any intellectual content must be truly terrifying.
It's interesting that you chose the word 'ameliorate' Zenster. It acknowledges that there are tradeoffs between risk and the costs and uncertainty of measures we might take to manage those risks.
Curious how you've totally avoided my assertations of having skirted any intellectual honesty regarding Taj al-Hilaly's supposed "moderation".
Overall, until the mere mention of islam is on par w/the word nazi or KKK in the minds of average Americans there will be no marginalizing the ideology.
Thank you, Broadhead6. Your firsthand accounts are invaluable.
#79
Zenster's favorite delusion is that he makes us run away. Actually, it's more like we close the windows when the odor of skunk starts getting too strong.
#80
Islam is not monolithic. There are multiple schools of thought in the Sunni branch. Ditto the Shi'a. Then you have the Sufis, Ahmadis and other schizms.
It's a simplistic approach to lump them all-together. It's far better, smarter (and more difficult) to understand which branches of Islam are a clear and present danger to us, and which ones can co-exist with the West. The former need to be rendered harmless, whatever it takes.
I get a little tired of the "kill them all" nonsense, 'bout as tired as I am of pig fat and lard jokes. None of that helps us in the WoT; it just makes it easier for the pomos and lefties to dismiss our point of view. A thought to consider ...
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/01/2007 21:40 Comments ||
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#81
I don't have much confidence in the main stream media carrying the message that puts islam on a par with the KKK, thugees, WWII Japanese, or the nazis. Islam is a demon religion--I just don't know how you demonize it. Maybe it will take another 911. Drudge has a story tonight stating that there is a lot of chatter such as preceded 911. Homeland Security has some kind of secret report that says look out for another large scale terrorist attack this summer.
#82
Zen, what the Koran instructs its followers to do is of little relevance. What its followers do is very relavent. Go through your copy of the Bible and you'll find some despicable things in there as well. Sure, not nearly as many, but there just the same. The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.
In short, the answer to your question is, "Doesn't matter."
As for the opposition getting quiet, it wasn't because I didn't want to respond to a false premise being trumpetted as a finer point, it was because I had better shit to do.
Mike N., for what it's worth, your honest reply counts for a thousand times more than the usual crapulent assaults by others. I look forward to engaging you in further clarification. I think that both of us might do each other some good.
And Muslims themselves are also not monolithic in their education, cultural background, family histories, financial class and other factors that strongly affect peoples' behavior.
I've talked with Palestinians on the West Bank 20 years ago who drew their water from a well and carried it home on donkeys, in the shadow of Jewish settlements. I've known and know thoroughly assimilated, upper middle class Muslims who grew up in the States, practice medicine and accounting and engineering, and whose level of religious zeal is about that of most Methodists. I know a young soldier in the US Army who has kept the Ramadan fast despite being in tough training situations, but who would never dream of doing so in real operations, when the lives of his Baptist or Catholic platoon buddies would be endangered by any weakness on his part.
Life is a lot more complex when you're out from behind a keyboard and have several decades of experience behind your judgements.
Come back and talk with me about courage when you've faced a parent, spouse or child dying or disabled - as I and many others here have - and you've had to make the decision about medical care without the comfort of clearly predictable outcomes. Or when you've led troops in combat, or faced any other tough decision with deep moral and practical implications and not one shred of certainty to guide you.
Come back and talk with me about courage on the matter of dealing with Muslim terrorists when you can speak from knowledge of Muslims as real people, with faces, families and a variety of opinions, as I have.
Until then, I find your arguments unpersuasive and, in their length and repetition, increasingly not worth reading. Is that a mistake on my part? Maybe. But that's where the cost - benefit tradeoff comes down.
#85
Zenster, so far I haven't heard one of your detractors say anything that I haven't heard in the last 20 years. Except in Hebrew, and dealing with "Palestinians" instead of Muslims in general. The urge to win public approval by espousing a "nice & reasonable" position is probably genetically coded. And it's, probably, the principal reason why civilizations repeatedly get overrun by barbarians.
#86
The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.
Mike, we don't have the luxury to wait 600 years till they catch up, I think.
There is a major diference between the nasty stuff in the Bible and Koran (hadiths, etc). The Old Testament stuff has been always understood from a historical perspective. Read some old Hebraic commentaries and that would be rather apparent. So, it is not only a suitability-for-modern-society factor, as you presume.
Koran, on the other hand, is a manual of Mo emulation.
...
The thing is, I am of a peaceful nature. I'd rather find ways to destroy Islam by peacefull means than otherwise.
Why not reform it? I don't think it is possible. You can reform individuals, but not the whole edifice, it is too entrenched in it's current form and as time goes by, the two main jihad oriented prongs would squeeze the minor splinters out. They may ultimately duke it out between themselves, but not until their conquest is finalized. To contain and leave Islam to live in some form or another with their current manuals intact would be asking for a repeat 300 year later, if not sooner, if I considered the containment possible.
Time is running out, and people that ponder too heavily about shades of gray will be the ones that would ultimately turn the keys and push the button as they will find themselves in a corner.
I have to leave it at that, but will return to it when my committments will ease a bit.
#87
There are 2 equally correct ways you can look at the current Islamic bloody rages:
1) Islam is failing in competition with the West (in particular the USA. Esp. cultural competition.
2) Islam is attempting to capture the world by the sword and is an ATTENTION WHORE to boot.
#88
Several "major" religions have been virtually wiped out. They include most of the Roman/Greek, Druid, Baal, and Zoroastrianism cults
Just a small quibble to a good point, Old Patriot: Zoroastrianism is alive and doing ok. Major centers in Iran and India (where they're known as Parsis, no doubt a corruption of Persian), whence some fled following the Islamic conquest. A quick google gave their numbers as being somewhere between 20,000 and 140,000 world wide. So much for accuracy.
Separately, the teaching of Islam, hence the laws and philosophy of Sharia, is not capable of being banned. The earliest example of such an attempt, since we're talking so approvingly of the Jews, was when the Seleucid/Syrian king Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" banned Judaism on the grounds that the entire kingdom must worship the Greek gods (and because he needed the treasures of the Temple in Jerusalem to pay off the debts incurred in his disastrous war against Ptolomy's Egypt (I don't know which number, but I think all of the Greek male pharaohs were named Ptolomy after the dynasty's founder, third of Alexander the Great's generals). If I recall the time line correctly, within a decade the Maccabean revolt had begun -- another disaster for poor King Antiochus.
A thought occurs to me about the large percentages wanting Sharia imposed, which they would really, really hate if they had to live under its restrictions. I am starting to suspect that those who claim to want it are using the term as a short cut to We get to be the fat cats and you-all have to do all the work, completely ignoring the dreadful Taliban and Saudi experiments. Much like the Marxists/Maoists and pure-blood racists of all colours, when they claim to want their ideal society, really want an Animal Farm where they get to be the pigs.
This doesn't make the jihadis/Islamofascists/Islamic Radicals any less dangerous, but does change a bit the discussion for me. We beat Fascism with full-out war, which took the world the better part of a decade, the U.S. having entered about halfway through. We beat Marxism via the Cold War, which took the better part of two generations. So far we've undertaken a mixture of the two for this third war against a totalitarian ideology, and we've been truly fighting it for almost six years, if my math is correct. Strategy Page says Al Qaeda is down to its junior varsity for the most part, and if the fizzles of the last two days are any example, it isn't just the Al Qaeda organization. [Hang on, Zenster, I quite agree that we can't count on the enemy being as stupid as they appear. ;-)] There have also been articles posted here at Rantburg which suggest that all the Sturm und Drang are a sign of Islam's hollowing out and imminent collapse, which I'm not clever enough to determine one way or the other. BUT, the Muslim world, and the rest of the world, too, are seeing two experiments going on at the moment: Iraq and the Palestinian Territories. The two in contrast lead to mind-opening possibilities, even for those who fight with all their might against them. Even in Saudi Arabia the peepul have started beating up the Muttawas, and suing them for false arrest, beatings and deaths in custody. Who ever thought that could happen in the stronghold of Wahabbi Islam?
My apologies for using up so much bandwidth today. I adore you all, and get really upset when y'all insist on fighting when we all agree on the important stuff. I hope you can forgive me my silliness.
#90
JQC - I have no faith in the msm. Hence my advocacy for mass circulation via all mass comm mediums. That could mean youtube, myspace, or anyother pajama media. Could also mean VOA, sirius, xm, whatever. The bottomline is there is no perfect option, there never is a perfect option or plan - only some that are better than others. In any case, I'm sure our congresscowards would never have the balls to even try & peacefully debunk islam. I have no faith in our gov't to deal w/them effectively as it stands now. Too many on the saudi teat & too many not understanding the real dynamics of the region/religion, etc. My fear is that too many folks in decision making places are still in 9/10/2001 comfortzone - this will lead to another attack and we will have to really hit them beyond what most of us want.
Right now I can think of several fairly plausible means - economic, legal, and non-violent in a kinetic sense to start incrementally dismantling and/or discrediting the muslim ideology both w/in & w/out our nation. None of them would be *easy* or quick (words I hate now because too many Americans want *easy* vice necessary) but they would be simple and effective.
#92
Broadhead6, it would be very helpful for me -- if you were willing -- if you would outline your thoughts and post it on page 4 as an opinion piece. You always come up with such useful things. I already suckered dear Pappy into wrestling his thoughts on Iran into shape, you see, and you bring a similarly practical experience to the discussion.
My thanks, always, for what you've done and continue to do to keep us all safe.
TW: I am starting to suspect that those who claim to want it are using the term as a short cut to We get to be the fat cats and you-all have to do all the work, completely ignoring the dreadful Taliban and Saudi experiments
I think you've nailed it fairly squarely to the wall. And in fact, that is what their cult promises. To become overlords and have some virgins later on to boot. Beside having some in their earthly existence.
However, the utopia (from their POV) would end as soon as the Islamic jurisprudence is established.
In a way, and I say it with a degree of uneasiness as it did cost a lot of blood, AQ in Iraq has been most helpful to blow the ruse.
It is like with communism. You have to experience it on your own to realize what a deranged political system it is.
#94
Come back and talk with me about courage on the matter of dealing with Muslim terrorists when you can speak from knowledge of Muslims as real people, with faces, families and a variety of opinions, as I have.
I've worked side by side with Muslims on the design of high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors. I've played backgammon with them after hours in their own homes. I've performed music at their weddings and have debated the merits of shari'a law more times than I can count.
You still refuse to admit ignoring my own direct postings about how Taj al-Hilali was no sort of moderate Muslim, just like you did in the first place. Your attacks mean absolutely nothing in the face of such continued intellectual dishonesty.
#95
TW - thanks for the sentiment & will do on the essay. Before the end of the week I'll put some stuff up for you to peruse. *Be forewarned* - I have no earth shattering courses of action or majick bullets to share. I'm sure any means I advocate to strengthen our country or weaken fundy islam someone else here has already thought about or prolly even discussed in a thread. If for some reason you don't see it I can shoot it to you via email if you'd like. BTW - I am on an easy duty away from the real USMC, (you could prolly tell that by looking at my IP) - teaching officer wannabees on a lovely campus in the mid-west...Mrs. BH6 is quite happy to say the least.
#96
You could also do me another favor, lotp, by not squalling here or there about my posting late in a thread. I reserve that only for the most useless of morons (unless you wish to be part of that category), not people who have any courage. In case you haven't noticed, that translates into a timely response over 90% of the time. Of course, that means nothing if you just want to keep pissing and moaning.
#97
Zenter -- this is just too much -- I've worked side by side with Muslims on the design of high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors. I've played backgammon with them after hours in their own homes. I've performed music at their weddings and have debated the merits of shari'a law more times than I can count.
So -- let's see -- master of words, master of cooking, master of making music, master of backgammon, master of whatever the h*ll "high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors" are -- meaning -- since you are the master of such incredible talents... just what does that mean to me?
I'm just a lit'le old lady deep in the heart of Texas... and I'm just not sure why your being the master of just high flaunting stuff, should make me bow to your beliefs.
You seem to have much experience debating with Muslims.... are you winning? Maybe your debating should have more impact on them, rather than us, since, they seem to be the cause of all our problems.
Apparently, you're not convincing them..... so.. are you practicing your arguments on us? If so, it ain't working with the lit'le ole lady... and thus, I don't think it is working with all your Muslim friends, that using your incredible master of so many talents... well, they seem to need more convincing, or you wouldn't be here.... you would have convinced them.... and thus, you wouldn't need us to practice on.
Yes, I did end that sentence with a preposition, and I intended to.
Now, excuse me if my words are harsh... that's the Texas lady comin' out in me.
#98
Zen, sometimes... you tend to push buttons. LOL
One aspect... the thing is, people have all sorts of things to do, so timely responses may not be possible. I myself is guilty as charged of untimely responses, if responses at all, and that is just the way it is.
Two persons were killed and ten others wounded, including a woman and two children, in an armed clash between rival groups in Khyber Agency on Saturday.
The fight started when the Namdar group attacked the house of Shiekhmal Khel tribes supreme commander Haji Maveez. The five-hour clash left Lal Bagh, brother of Maveez, and Haji Pathang dead and one person injured. A Skiekhmal Khel tribesman told reporters that five persons of the rival group were also injured. He said a mortar shell, fired on a house, injured a woman and two children.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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A bomb exploded at a bus station in northwestern Pakistan on Saturday, wounding at least two people, police said. It was not immediately clear who had planted the bomb under a bus in the city of Peshawar, the capital of North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, said local police official Fazal Mola Khan.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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BAGHDAD, July 1 (Reuters) - The number of civilians killed in Iraq fell sharply in June to the lowest monthly total since a U.S.-backed security clampdown was launched in February, Iraqi government figures showed on Sunday.
The data, obtained from the ministries of interior, defence and health, showed 1,227 civilians died violently in June, a 36-percent fall from May and the lowest level in five months.
U.S. military officials said it was premature to draw conclusions about the effects of the crackdown, which is seen as a last ditch effort to avert full-scale sectarian civil war between majority Shi'ites and minority Sunni Arabs.
"We continue to be cautiously optimistic, (but) we are still very early in this process," said U.S. military spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Christopher Garver.
U.S. President George W. Bush is under growing pressure from opposition Democrats and senior figures in his own Republican Party to show his war strategy is working after ordering 28,000 more soldiers to Iraq.
There are now 157,000 U.S. troops in the country.
U.S. public opinion has grown increasingly hostile to the war and June was a costly month for U.S. forces, with 101 soldiers killed. That made the April-June quarter the bloodiest since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
While U.S. military officials say the number of attacks across Iraq has remained steady in recent months, there has been a reduction in the past few weeks in the amount of big car bombings that often cause a heavy loss of life.
"Although the number of car bombs ... has remained relatively constant since almost November, the effects of those has come down significantly," Major-General Joseph Fil, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, said during a live link-up with Pentagon reporters on Friday.
One of the key aims of the crackdown is to dismantle car bomb networks operated by Sunni Islamist al Qaeda in and around Baghdad and to protect vulnerable places such as outdoor markets with high concrete walls to keep bombers out.
U.S. officials accuse al Qaeda of trying to tip Iraq into all-out sectarian civil war by attacking Shi'ites targets.
A car bomb attack at a Shi'ite mosque in central Baghdad on June 19 killed 87 people, the deadliest attack in the capital since 140 people perished in a Baghdad market bomb in April.
The number of bodies found daily around Baghdad, a barometer of the activities of sectarian death squads, has also shown a decline during the crackdown.
Police said they had found 16 bodies on Saturday in the capital, compared with 40 or 50 daily last year. However, on many days the average has been about 20 to 30 bodies found.
The Iraqi data showed 222 Iraqi police and soldiers were also killed in June, slightly higher than the previous month. It also showed that 416 insurgents and militants were killed in June and 2,262 were detained.
Fil said almost half of Baghdad's 474 neighbourhoods were under effective control after having been cleared of militants.
The core of U.S. strategy is "clear, hold and build" -- flushing militants from their strongholds, preventing them from returning with stepped-up security, and winning the trust and support of locals by improving basic services.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 09:40 ||
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Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Iraq
#1
Anybody who thinks we can just walk away from Iraq needs to see this article. Children, infants, animals...these Al-Qaida psychopaths don't care in the slightest. Hell, they probably like it better when it is the truly innocent. I was dead in accord with the Iraqi policeman; I'd have found some way to kill that Al-Q bastard, preferably with my bare hands. When the rest of the Iraqis feel the same way, this war will be ended swiftly, and payback will be a fearsome sight.
Posted by: Mac ||
07/01/2007 10:14 Comments ||
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#2
But do you suppose this important story will make it's way into the MSM? Does it fit with their agenda? The answer is probably "NO" to both of these questions.
The press has not been friendly to our efforts in Iraq. They must prefer the AQ way.
#4
Not just AQ, Zen, madrassas,, moskkks and their handpicked preachers, hate literature that they distribute there... add the politicos and colleges they cash-whore...
But yes, they'll get their comeuppance, sooner or later.
#5
Comparisons with Vietnam are correct. (Hue 1968)
Posted by: Sherebmanper Scourge of the Platypi1150 ||
07/01/2007 11:26 Comments ||
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#6
You can compare this to Hue but Hue was more akin to Karbala - an ancient capital an cultural center. The massacre there was on a different order. The butchering of these villagers including the beheading of children certainly does parallel much of what happened in Vietnam. As for MSM coverage - they could try, but very few Americans would abide coverage of exhumed children heads. Most Americans would simply turn the channel to Law and Order reruns and blackhole the memories. WRT another Vietnam parallel, I'm glad the AQ operative was not summarily executed on camera. That didn't play well among the American populus.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 12:05 Comments ||
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#7
Word of things like this will pass around both the Iraqi and American troops very quickly. And soldiers of all kinds get very testy when they hear of such things.
I am reminded of how at the end of WWII, it was pretty much standard practice to hang General SS when they were captured. On the spot. MPs even carried rope around in their jeeps for just such a possibility.
BAGHDAD - US forces found around 40 bodies, bound and bearing gunshot wounds, in a mass grave south of Fallujah, the military said Saturday as US-led forces reported 26 militants killed in fighting in Baghdad. It was not immediately known who carried out the massacre or when the victims were killed.
A local Iraqi citizens tip led coalition forces to the site of a mass grave late Friday evening outside Ferris, approximately 35 kilometers (21 miles) south of Fallujah, the military said in a statement. Coalition forces uncovered 35 to 40 bodies at the site. The remains were bound and had gunshot wounds.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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Top|| File under: Iraqi Insurgency
#1
So there are real dead bodies, not a report by somebody's cousin who heard it from a guy he didn't know, but which was reported as fact by the AP?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/01/2007 6:53 Comments ||
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#2
bobby i commend you on being able too put AP and fact in a sentence together
#3
Don't believe this - I think the brass have already debunked it as myth. Same if you see one about two teachers being beheaded in front of their classes. Hoaxes by the press - both journalists are muzzies. Can't trust anything they write.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/01/2007 13:55 Comments ||
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A suicide bomber exploded himself in a crowd of police recruits Saturday in a market area northeast of Baghdad, killing at least 16 people, police said. The bomber detonated his explosives belt in a market area outside a police station in Muqdadiyah, 90 kilometers (60 miles) north of the Iraqi capital, a police officer said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information. All of the victims were new police recruits, the officer said.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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Top|| File under: Iraqi Insurgency
The arrest of two militants from the radical group holding BBC correspondent Alan Johnston hostage has put the journalist's life in great danger, according to sources in Gaza and within the group itself. Johnston, who was kidnapped on 12 March, today endures his 111th day in captivity.
Late last night, members of Jaish al-Islam were due to meet to discuss his fate after two of their members were arrested earlier by Hamas security forces hoping to pressure the group - led by Mumtaz Dogmosh - into releasing the journalist.
The revelation came even as members of the Dogmosh family - a notorious clan supplying most of the members of 'The Army of Islam' - continued desperate efforts to convince the group not to kill the 45-year-old Scot. However, moderate insiders said the radicals were in charge and out of patience with Hamas, the British government, and the BBC. 'We have tried to keep them talking and delaying, but now I fear they will not listen. We will know tonight,' said one Dogmosh member with close ties to Jaish al-Islam and who has been working to end the crisis for months.
Hamas security forces snatched two members of Jaish al-Islam on their way from dawn prayers on Tuesday and held them at the former Fatah military intelligence HQ. According to a Jaish member, one of the arrested men was given a mobile phone to call his comrades as a start of negotiations to swap them for Johnston, but instead the man told them not to bargain for their freedom. The militant who said he took that call said: 'The brother told me to refuse all talks with Hamas and to kill Alan if Hamas kills him. This has ended any chance of negotiations.'
Hamas police commander Abu Khalid said: 'There was an operation...to arrest two members of Jaish al-Islam to put pressure on the Dogmosh family. The response to this was that Mumtaz threatened all foreigners and journalists in Gaza. We have been patrolling the hotels and will protect any journalist who requests it. We need to keep Alan alive, so we wait, wait, wait. There is the need for patience, but the changes in the past two weeks show us patience could be finished. It could be days.'
Jaish al-Islam is one of a number of small but effective splinter groups that has worked with Hamas in the past, most notably as a partner in last year's kidnapping of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. But over the past year, it has moved away from Hamas in a series of political, religious and family disputes. much more at link
#1
Oh well...I guess the occasional "friendly fire" casualty's just to be expected in these situations. What's really important is the greater good...driving those pesky Jews into the sea and all that. Oh, before I forget - Allahu Akbar, old chap!
Posted by: The BBC ||
07/01/2007 2:54 Comments ||
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#5
Alan Johnston can rest assured the full moral authority of his colleagues at the BBC will be brought to bear to ensure his freedom.
And if that great weight comes to no effect, Johnston should know that - to parse Fisk - if I was Alan Johnston, I would have kidnapped me and hacked my head off at the neck for internet viewers of the Umma too.
#10
We may get to see the answer to the question: " is a terrorist still only a militant after he cuts off one of your employee's head." I don't think that the BBC will change its language. Some ideology runs too deep for change even when confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Note - I would rather stay curious and have Mr. Johnston continue living, but I am not optimistic.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 13:00 Comments ||
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#11
No way SH---a way to blame Israel will be found.
A prominent Palestinian journalist from the Gaza Strip has sought political asylum in Norway, Palestinian journalists said Saturday. Seif al-Din Shahin, the correspondent for the Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya news channel network, left the Gaza Strip together with his family, they said, noting that he had received many death threats over the past few months.
Shahin's request has yet to be approved by the Norwegian government. Several other Palestinian journalists are also reported to have fled the Gaza Strip out of fear for their lives.
Earlier this year, masked gunmen set fire to the offices of Al-Arabiya in Gaza City, causing heavy damage to furniture and equipment. Although no group claimed responsibility, Palestinian journalists blamed members of Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades. The group was also responsible for beating Shahin in two separate incidents in 2001 and 2004. The second assault followed Shahin's live broadcast of a rally held on Fatah's anniversary. The report angered Fatah leaders who had instructed Shahin and other journalists to report that tens of thousands had participated.
In 2003 he was arrested by the Palestinian Authority security forces because of his reporting. Al-Arabiya's offices in Ramallah have also been attacked by Fatah gunmen on a number of occasions.
Shahin's brother, Muhammad, confirmed that his brother had left the Gaza Strip, but said he was unaware of the reports that he had asked for political asylum. "My brother left for personal reasons," he said.
Shahin's decision to seek political asylum in Norway comes amid a campaign that is being waged by Fatah against Al-Arabiya's rival, Al-Jazeera.
Shahin's decision to seek political asylum in Norway comes amid a campaign that is being waged by Fatah against Al-Arabiya's rival, Al-Jazeera. Fatah leaders have even called for closing down the Al-Jazeera offices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, accusing the Qatari-owned TV station of serving as a mouthpiece for Hamas and other radical Islamic groups. "Al-Jazeera is openly biased in favor of Hamas," said a senior Fatah leader. "This station must be banned from working in the Palestinian territories."
Muhammad Dahlan, the former Fatah security commander in the Gaza Strip, is said to be spearheading calls for banning Al-Jazeera. Last week he told Palestinian journalists that Al-Jazeera had been doing everything to drive a wedge and encourage schism among Palestinians. "This station has become an organ for Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood," he said.
Yasser Abed Rabbo, a top PLO official closely associated with PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, accused Al-Jazeera of endorsing Hamas and its terrorists. "Al-Jazeera is a partner in the crimes that are being perpetrated by the terrorists of Hamas's armed wing against our people," he said.
Muhammad Hourani, a senior Fatah operative in the Gaza Strip, said Al-Jazeera was no longer an independent and objective source for news. "They are a party to the conflict [between Hamas and Fatah]," he said. He said that Al-Jazeera had refused to cover atrocities committed by Hamas in the Gaza Strip over the past few weeks and was providing a platform for Fatah's enemies.
Two weeks ago, Fatah militiamen set fire to the home of Hassan al-Titi, the Al-Jazeera correspondent in Nablus. One of the station's correspondents in the Gaza Strip, Hiba Akileh, came under fire from Fatah for allegedly ignoring the fact that Fatah gunmen had participated in the fighting against the IDF last week. Fatah gunmen have also torched two vehicles belonging to Al-Jazeera in Ramallah. The attack came after Al-Jazeera ignored demands to cover a Fatah rally in the city.
#3
One of the station's correspondents in the Gaza Strip, Hiba Akileh, came under fire from Fatah for allegedly ignoring the fact that Fatah gunmen had participated in the fighting against the IDF last week
Paleo Editorial Control = Lou Grant with an AK 47
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/01/2007 7:51 Comments ||
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#4
So why didn't Mr. Shahin flee to his paper's home office in Saudi Arabia? It'll be a lot harder to file his reports from half way round the world, surely?
Thai security forces raided a village in the rebellious Muslim south on Sunday and detained 50 men with bomb-making material, an army spokesman said. The detainees were taken for questioning to an army camp in Narathiwat, one of three provinces where more than 2,300 people have been killed in a three-year separatist insurgency in the Malay-speaking region.
The dawn raid, which involved 100 troops and police, followed tipoffs from villagers that a group of militants were hiding in the village, Colonel Atthadej Mathanom told Reuters by telephone. The detainees can be held without charge for 28 days under an emergency law.
Last month, the army detained 160 Muslims after rebels intensified attacks on government schools, civil servants and security forces.
#1
The detainees were taken for questioning to an army camp in Narathiwat
Bets that they'd prefer Gitmo?
I'm sure the usual suspects will be righteously complaining about the detention tomorrow, or the next day, or the next week. Maybe next month? Oh, that's right, these are Americans doing the detaining. Nevermind.
THE assassination of a prominent cleric in an oil-rich Iranian province, coinciding with violent protests in Tehran over the rationing of petrol, has plunged President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad into his biggest crisis since he was elected two years ago.
The murder on June 24 of Hesham Saymary in Ahvaz, the centre of Iran's oil-producing province in the south, was a blow to a regime that is already under pressure because of international condemnation of its nuclear program and the prospect of economic meltdown. There have been other assassinations in Iran, notably in the Kurdish area, in the west near the Iraq border, but the Government is far more concerned about Saymary's death because stability in the province is crucial for its oil revenues.
Saymary may have been targeted because he was a prominent supporter of the regime.
Saymary was a member of the majority Arab population of Ahvaz, the focus of an Arabist separatist movement that follows the Wahabi sect of Islam, linked to Osama bin Laden.
He may have been targeted because he was a prominent supporter of the regime. Protests that followed shortly afterwards over the rationing of petrol convulsed Iran and its increasingly discontented citizens.
The rationing is particularly damaging to Mr Ahmadinejad because those worst affected are the constituency that elected him, the poor and disenfranchised. During his campaign he adopted the slogan: "Oil money must be seen on the table of the people." He increased Iran's public spending budget, and promised dams, streets, stadiums, schools and hospitals. Few have been built. Faced with UN sanctions and pariah status over its nuclear ambitions, the regime lacks the foreign investment it needs to build more refineries.
On the streets of Tehran last week, housewives who are usually apolitical were throwing his slogans back in his face. "We have some of the biggest oil reserves in the world," said Fatima, 38, a mother of five. "Why do I have to worry if I can pick up my children? The President said he would put the oil money on the tables of the poor. It's all lies."
Mr Ahmadinejad was opposed to the petrol rationing, but was overruled by the Majlis, the Iranian parliament.
Interesting, if true.
His objections centred on the timing of its introduction. He wanted stability while facing American plans to engineer regime change, either through military strikes or by a revolution from within.
Ah.
Little noticed in the media, but keenly watched in Tehran, is the Bush administration's donation of $52 million to Iranian opposition groups.
Little noticed in the media, but keenly watched in Tehran, is the Bush administration's donation of $52 million to Iranian opposition groups. The worry now is that the regime will crack down on domestic freedoms to distract attention from its problems. "They always do this," a university lecturer said.
Others predict Mr Ahmadinejad will stand firm. "They bit the bullet," said an Iranian economist. "These guys have the ability to put people on corners with guns. They're not turning back."
Posted by: lotp ||
07/01/2007 12:01 ||
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Top|| File under: Govt of Iran
#1
Now would be a good time to apply an economic chokehold.
#3
Mr Ahmadinejad was opposed to the petrol rationing, but was overruled by the Majlis, the Iranian parliament.
Here is the Chinese Peoples daily on the Iranian Parliament and gas rationing.
Note that all Paliamentary decisions have to be approved by the Guardian Council, essentially an Upper House of Parliament. If I interpret this correctly, this means that the mullahs, for the most part, control the laws. If that's the case, then passing rationing over the IRGC-backed President's objections was partly based on intra-mural politics as well as economic factors.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/01/2007 13:15 Comments ||
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#5
Keep in mind that Ahmadinejad has spent a great deal of that "oil money" on proxy's outside of Iran (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Labanon, Gaza, etc). I'm surprised no mention of this is made in these recent news articles. It would seem that is the 800 lb. canary that everyone is ignoring.
#7
"Oil money must be seen on the table of the people."
With the untold billions of dollars whose diversion into nuclear weapons research Ahmadinejad has cheerfully countenanced, I believe his real message is:
#8
Iran has spent a lot of money fomenting wars through proxies--primarily with a fundamental islamic stamp on these efforts. Hoping the mad mullahs and Mahmoud will go and give way to a more moderate government.
#10
Independent of Iran's other problems, just about the entire country is proud of their nuclear effort, as I understand it. Few other things so easily -- relatively speaking -- put a country in the big league.
The Lebanese News Agency has quoted Spanish sources in Beirut that are investigating the killing of the 6 UNIFIL soldiers as saying that they have in their possession several pictures that were taken by security cameras of the assassins and the vehicles they used in carrying out the crime. The number of the assassins according to the pictures are 4 to 5 people. The investigation further revealed that the assassins fled in a Grey Mercedes car after they assassinated the UNIFIL peacekeepers.
Several people have been apprehended, questioned and then released for lack of evidence against them. The Agency said the Spanish investigators are obtaining Photomontage of the images in their possession, to obtain accurate images of the assassins.
Photomontage is the process of making a composite photograph by cutting and joining a number of other photographs. The composite picture is sometimes photographed so that the final image is converted back into a seamless photographic print. The same method is accomplished today using image-editing software. This helps in obtaining accurate images of the assassins.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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[7 views]
Top|| File under: Fatah al-Islam
Security forces confiscated a car believed to have been used in the assassination of anti-Syrian Minister of Industry and lawmaker Pierre Gemayel seven months ago, a reliable source said. The source speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Japanese-made Honda vehicle, which is believed to have been used in Gemayel's killing, was busted in north Lebanon.
The industry minister was shot in the head at point-blank range in broad daylight on Nov. 21. At the time, one escort said two cars took Gemayel's convoy by surprise. One rammed his Kia automobile from behind, while an assassin stepped out of another vehicle and shot the legislator in his car. A bodyguard was also killed. "We have evidence, solid enough to make us believe it is one of the cars used by the assassins" who gunned down Gemayel in Beirut's northeastern suburb of new Jdeideh.
However, he said "further laboratory tests to be conducted abroad will provide the definite answer." The source refused to disclose further details.
Gemayel was a prominent member of the anti-Syrian March 14 majority alliance that backs Premier Fouad Siniora's government. His killing, as well as that of legislator Walid Eido earlier this month, had been blamed by the Siniora government on Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime. Damascus has denied the charges.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/01/2007 00:00 ||
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Top|| File under: Govt of Syria
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
In the latest in a series of arrests, one person was apprehended in the northwest port city of Liverpool and two houses were searched. Two, said to be a 26-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman, people were earlier seized in nearby Cheshire on the Glasgow-bound M6 highway.
Spanish police acting on a telephoned bomb threat evacuated Ibiza airport in the Balearic islands on Saturday, and later used a controlled explosion to detonate a suspicious package, airport officials and press reports said. 
Two persons were killed and ten others wounded, including a woman and two children, in an armed clash between rival groups in Khyber Agency on Saturday. 
BAGHDAD, July 1 (Reuters) - The number of civilians killed in Iraq fell sharply in June to the lowest monthly total since a U.S.-backed security clampdown was launched in February, Iraqi government figures showed on Sunday.
BAGHDAD - US forces found around 40 bodies, bound and bearing gunshot wounds, in a mass grave south of Fallujah, the military said Saturday as US-led forces reported 26 militants killed in fighting in Baghdad. It was not immediately known who carried out the massacre or when the victims were killed.
A suicide bomber exploded himself in a crowd of police recruits Saturday in a market area northeast of Baghdad, killing at least 16 people, police said. The bomber detonated his explosives belt in a market area outside a police station in Muqdadiyah, 90 kilometers (60 miles) north of the Iraqi capital, a police officer said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information. All of the victims were new police recruits, the officer said.
THE assassination of a prominent cleric in an oil-rich Iranian province, coinciding with violent protests in Tehran over the rationing of petrol, has plunged President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad into his biggest crisis since he was elected two years ago.
The Lebanese News Agency has quoted Spanish sources in Beirut that are investigating the killing of the 6 UNIFIL soldiers as saying that they have in their possession several pictures that were taken by security cameras of the assassins and the vehicles they used in carrying out the crime. The number of the assassins according to the pictures are 4 to 5 people. The investigation further revealed that the assassins fled in a Grey Mercedes car after they assassinated the UNIFIL peacekeepers.
