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2007-07-02 Britain
My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror
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Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-02 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ]  Top
 File under: Al-Muhajiroun 

#1 My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror

Fat fucking chance. Oh, how I'd love to be wrong.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-07-02 01:24||   2007-07-02 01:24|| Front Page Top

#2 Who wouldn't.

He is a well meaning chap. Being a former terr insider, he can see the whole thing in a sharp focus, but also it skews his perception because his departure is not yet complete, reflected in his dream of reformation, which contrast with his recognition of the facts about inseparability of Islam and sharia. A handfull of other former terrs that got over their connection with Islam would probably agree with "fat chance", or a degree of it thereof.

Of course, he sees the writing on the wall--that is why he uses the "must" in his plea, as it seems that it is not hard for him to figure out, extrapolate what would ensue if things continue to go the way they do at present.
Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-02 01:58||   2007-07-02 01:58|| Front Page Top

#3 Well I wish there were more like him, but I'm afraid he misses the central point. A Muslim cannot renounce violence as a means for furthering his religion without a corresponding ignorance or denial of his own creed.
Posted by mcsegeek1 2007-07-02 02:01||   2007-07-02 02:01|| Front Page Top

#4 My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror...

Humans are from Venus. jihadis are from Mars.
Posted by anymouse">anymouse  2007-07-02 08:27||   2007-07-02 08:27|| Front Page Top

#5 Hope his address isn't publicly available.
Posted by gromgoru 2007-07-02 09:31||   2007-07-02 09:31|| Front Page Top

#6 A Muslim cannot renounce violence as a means for furthering his religion without a corresponding ignorance or denial of his own creed.

While it's not bloody likely to occur, it IS the case that new interpretations and rulings could be made. It's happened before in the history of Islam, sometimes peacefully and sometimes causing serious contention.
Posted by lotp 2007-07-02 09:41||   2007-07-02 09:41|| Front Page Top

#7 A Muslim cannot renounce violence as a means for furthering his religion without a corresponding ignorance or denial of his own creed.

Worst of all there does not seem any way of changing this. Certainly not for outsiders and quite so even for Muslims themselves. As Grumenk Philalzabod0723 observed yesterday:

The uncomfortable truth is that Islamic fundamentalism is incompatible with democracy because immodifiable Koranic scripture demands the establishment of a caliphate and the assassination of apostates. What logically follows is this: the only Muslims we can permit to live within our societies are not true Muslims, but some watered down inauthentic version.

What we seek in "moderate" Muslims is, in reality, a non-Muslim. Islam's blasphemy laws and death penalty for apostasy have resulted in nearly a millennia of closed loop doctrinal cycling. Its intensely ossified nature precludes any hope of deviating from such a hidebound ideology. Centuries of Islam's clerical elite have cemented their personal power and authority by entrenching this thoroughly ingrown scripture.

No better example exists than the near-constant bloodshed amongst Muslims over being "more Islamic than thou". The single issue of patrilineal descent from their prophet has fomented internecine slaughter for untold centuries. Their obsessive pursuit of religious purity attains the ridiculous with an entirely straight face. Witness the political suicide performed by hard line Iranian ex-president Khatami, solely by shaking hands with some strange women in Italy.

Sgt. Mom speculated quite articulately about how Islam's brittleness could explain its intransigence and lack of introspection. As with other brittle objects like glass and ceramics, such adamant inflexiblity inhibits ready modification and external stress more often yields shattering results.

This is indicated rather strongly in the case of Islam. Its recalcitrance and intolerance automatically presages catastrophic failure. Such an abrasive nature will either erode any opposition or crack against it trying. The only question of this outcome lies in the West's resolve to resist Islam's predations. If we are resolute in our opposition there is an almost intrinsic implication that Islam must rupture as a result.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-07-02 09:50||   2007-07-02 09:50|| Front Page Top

#8 I have no doubt that this guy is seen as a sellout to the religion, even to the muted mythical, moderate muslims.

The fact that there are no outraged muslims, no muslim protests against terror, no self-policing speaks volumes about the prevailing attitudes within the community. So, renounce terror? Hardly. I think they privately feel empowered by it.
Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan  2007-07-02 10:49||   2007-07-02 10:49|| Front Page Top

#9 bravo to the Guardian for printing this (maybe the NYT will do so - don't hold your breath).

but the most interesting thing was that in the comments there were only a few 'but we kill poor Afgans' so we are as guilty responses and a lot of 'Islam really, really has problems' comments

Posted by mhw 2007-07-02 11:01|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]  2007-07-02 11:01|| Front Page Top

#10 #7
Zen,
Many times in differing explanations you've carefully explained why Islam must be eliminated if western civilization is to survive. What you've stated today, perfectly summarizes and encapsulates the reasoning. I never take time to provide explanations, I just want to abolish it. If it means abolishing millions of Muslims too, I could care less. All the fancy talk is worthless. A showdown is here now and either we respond or we don't. One culture will be eliminated. I know which one I want to eleiminate and I really don't give a rip about the opinion of anyone else.
Posted by Woozle Elmeter2970 2007-07-02 12:50||   2007-07-02 12:50|| Front Page Top

#11 Many times in differing explanations you've carefully explained why Islam must be eliminated if western civilization is to survive.

To clarify: Right now, my main position is that Islam must be abolished in all Western countries to preserve their constitutional law and respective cultures. Elimination of it worldwide is another matter and my own view is that it seems rather predictable that Islam will incur the West's nuclear wrath with some hideous atrocity in the not too distant future.

What you've stated today, perfectly summarizes and encapsulates the reasoning.

Thank you, Woozle Elmeter. On topics of this importance I've always felt it was imperative to back one's stance with some sort of reasoned argument.

I never take time to provide explanations, I just want to abolish it.

After years of endless Islamic crapulence, I find it difficult to blame you for feeling that way. My own patience has worn paper thin as well.

If it means abolishing millions of Muslims too, I could care less.

The human part of me would rather avoid this if possible. To date, Islam has done nothing but increase the likelihood of a Muslim holocaust. I believe that our next step should escalate along the lines of David D.'s list of options: (can't find a link so here they are)
The War on Islamic Terrorism:

1. SURRENDER:

Islam's stated mission-- and to Muslims, their manifest destiny-- is to convert the entire world to Islam; we could dispense with this entire war just by becoming Muslims and being done with it. Bow our heads before their hateful god, and accept our fate.

2. APPEASEMENT:

We could try buying them off by giving them what they say they want: let them wipe Israel off the map and indulge their appetite for murdering Jews; set up shariah courts as a parallel legal system here in the US; teach Islam in our public schools; give special rights to Muslims in America; increase Muslim immigration; increase foreign aid to Muslim countries; open up a "dialog" with the Islamists to promote "mutual understanding"; try diplomacy; whatever. Be nice enough to them, and maybe they'll stop attacking us.

3. IGNORE THE ATTACKS:

We could try to just ignore atrocities like the Islamic attacks on 9/11 and in Madrid, London, Bali, Israel and Beslan, and chalk such things up as the necessary price for coexisting with Islam. They're violent savages, and we may as well get used to getting hit every so often.

4. ISOLATE OURSELVES:

We could try withdrawing from the rest of the world and its troubles, keeping our heads down and maintaining a low global profile. Stop the de facto exportation of American/Western culture, if that is what's driving them nuts. And whatever shitstorm breaks loose, just ignore it.

5. CRIMINAL PROSECUTION:

We could go back to the "Law Enforcement Approach": treating Islamic terrorism as a purely criminal matter just like we did during the Clinton administration, hunting down terrorists who attack us and prosecuting them for their crimes-- but only AFTER they've committed them. The Democratic Party has been making it increasingly clear that this is their preferred approach: the "civil liberties" crowd loves it, and it makes lots of work for lawyers and judges.

6. LIBERATION & REFORM:

We can do what we're doing right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is trying to see if Arab/Islamic society can be detoxified by introducing democratic self-governance. Maybe it can; maybe it can't. We'll see.

Frankly, the results don't look very promising so far; but barring some catastrophe we'll keep trying there at least so long as Bush is in office. After that, though, people are going to insist on coming to conclusions and I suspect many will conclude that liberation and reform of Islamic society is not going to quell the Islamic tendency toward violence.

7. DOMESTIC OPPRESSION:

We could try to prevent terrorist attacks by turning America into a police state, complete with intrusive government monitoring of all aspects of our lives and the suspension of habeus corpus. Anyone even suspected of terrorist activity or radical Islamic sympathies simply disappears in the middle of the night along with their entire family. People live in constant fear of the authorities.

NOTE: this is what the "Law Enforcement Approach" will morph into when it proves ineffective.

8. CONQUEST & SUBJUGATION:

We could invade Muslim countries, execute their political and religious leaders, outlaw Islam and bulldoze their mosques, and rule them all with an iron fist. Conquer them, rule them, and extirpate the Islamic menace by force.

9. INTIMIDATION / DETERRENCE:

We could respond to terrorist attacks on American soil with extravagantly disproportionate retaliation against the cities and infrastructure of the Muslim world: kill a thousand of us, and we'll kill a million of you. Repeated often enough, and brutally enough, this might eventually deter them from further terrorist attacks.

10. EXPULSION & QUARANTINE:

We could outlaw Islam within the U.S. and expel all Muslims, citizens or not. Forbid entry into the U.S.-- even for brief visits-- to all Muslims regardless of their country of origin and to all nationals, regardless of religion, from countries that are predominantly Muslim. Seal the Canadian and Mexican borders tight with orders to shoot to kill, and NOT bother asking questions later.

11. EXTERMINATION:

We could end this 1,400 year struggle between Islam and the West once and for all, with a war that would last barely a half-hour: simply nuke the entire Islamic world and then let our descendents inherit the guilt from murdering a billion people.

We're currently at option six. I'm unwilling to undergo Orwellian domestic security levels, so that rules out option seven. Simply bombing out the leadership structure of nations who sponsor terrorism is a close approximation to option eight, just without the occupation. My suggestions that the West needs to consider using option nine haven't been particularly well-received. I'm now working on option eleven in a modified form. However, I believe that the quarrantine (q'arantine) needs to manifest as a cordon around the MME (Muslim Middle East) in order to contain this world's recongregated Muslim population. The expulsion of Muslims from Western countries appears to be one of the few humane options we have left.

All the fancy talk is worthless.

I dispute that notion. Using points gathered here and some of my own, I've been able to sway other people's opinions over to a better understanding of why Islam is so evil. It's something we all need to be doing to help save America.

A showdown is here now and either we respond or we don't.

While the showdown may not be here exactly now, I agree that it is a lot closer than most people think. I also feel that we should be working on the assumption of one being necessary in order to best prepare ourselves for what is coming.

One culture will be eliminated.

Given Islam's refusal to reform or coexist, that seems to be a certainty.

I know which one I want to eleiminate and I really don't give a rip about the opinion of anyone else.

However nice it would be to avoid annihilation of the MME, Islam continues to make this entire issue into an "either or" proposition. Given that fact, my money isn't on Islam.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-07-02 15:22||   2007-07-02 15:22|| Front Page Top

#12 I'm now working on option eleven in a modified form.

Obviously, that would be option TEN and not eleven. I think we can all agree that avoiding option eleven is a desirable thing to do.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-07-02 15:26||   2007-07-02 15:26|| Front Page Top

#13 Hassan Butt?

YCMTSU
Posted by mojo">mojo  2007-07-02 16:35||   2007-07-02 16:35|| Front Page Top

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