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2007-07-02 Britain

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Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-02 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11135 views ] Top
File under: al-Qaeda in Britain

#1 Doctors or no I still say these guys are frickin morons.

Posted by Elmereter Hupash6222 2007-07-02 00:53|| 2007-07-02 00:53|| Front Page Top

#2 The doctor involved in the Glasgow attack is an Iraqi who is thought to have been granted asylum in the UK while a third suspect comes from Lebanon. At least one other member of the cell was still being hunted last night.

I'll bet his name is Mudd now! ....sorry, it just came out.

Posted by Besoeker 2007-07-02 02:03|| 2007-07-02 02:03|| Front Page Top

#3 Mo' hamed,

Mo' problems

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2007-07-02 04:26|| 2007-07-02 04:26|| Front Page Top

#4 They must have been impoverished. As if that were the only reason for Islamic Quran taught Muslim terrorism for Allen.

Spit.

Foot note. The BBC interviewed one eye witness and asked her if they looked, Asian. The dumb whore bought the PC BS and said, "yes they did".

Posted by Icerigger 2007-07-02 06:17|| 2007-07-02 06:17|| Front Page Top

#5 Well, I must confess that I spent the weekend in a rather drunken haze, Friday right through to Sunday night.

However, it still seemed so massively obvious that the MSM would miss the most fundamental point about these attacks, namely that they were directly and publicly sanctioned by the Pakistani Minister Mohammad Ejaz ul-Haq in an open statement to the worlds media that "SUICIDE ATTACKS ARE JUSTIFIED". Their national assembly then demanded that Britain withdraw the Rushdie knighthood, (OR ELSE?). The Iraqi Foreign Minister has also gone on record as saying that this could be used to justify attacks.

This was less than a fortnight ago and when the bombs arrive, what genius conclusion do our highly paid media analysts come up with? It was "Al-Qaeda", apparently, whoever they are, who did it because Gordon Brown is taking over as PM. Maybe they were also incensed by the public smoking ban which came into effect over the weekend?

What has happened here is some folks have taken it upon themselves to respond to an act of open sedition, effectively a declaration of war from Pakistan and the Iraq Minister.

That's it, I've had enough. Troops out, droids in.

If they dont get it by now, they never will. Time to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, it doesnt look like we are going to "get it" anytime soon, either. The media continue to blame these attacks on our foreign adventures assigning their dialectic materialist interpretations of what motivates people, whilst willfully ignoring what is actually coming out of their mouths, which is that it doesnt really matter whether we try to make a difference, or continue to support whatever fascist happens to crawl to the top of the pile at any given moment.

They hate & want to kill us for who and what we are. What we do, say and believe.

Israel have the right idea. Good fences make good neighbours.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 06:48|| 2007-07-02 06:48|| Front Page Top

#6 Israel have the right idea. Good fences make good neighbours.

Not while sewage pipes are abundant. The problem doen't have any solutions that do not require getting one hands dirty, I'm afraid.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-07-02 08:52|| 2007-07-02 08:52|| Front Page Top

#7 Doctors of Pathology? Altered records? Deceit?

Posted by Phinater Thraviger 2007-07-02 09:17|| 2007-07-02 09:17|| Front Page Top

#8 Icerigger: I can imagine a reporter asking a witness if the Virginia Tech shooter looked "Asian". In North America this would refer to east Asians including, as it turns out, a Korean guy.

Yes, the BBC will spin this. Obviously. But by asking if the men looked "Asian" they are asking if they looked Pakistani. In the UK, "Asian" refers to south-asians (of the 1.6m muslims in the UK, 1m are from Pakistan). There is nothing "PC" about the expression and the respondent is not a "dumb whore" for using an expression you do not use in the United States.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-07-02 09:33|| 2007-07-02 09:33|| Front Page Top

#9 Yeah - I did notice the Beeb presenters looking increasingly worried as eye-witness after eye-witness used the expression 'asian' - thought they might start beeping it out. Couldn't let the people know the truth etc...

Posted by Howard UK 2007-07-02 09:55|| 2007-07-02 09:55|| Front Page Top

#10 I think he was saying that she was a dumb whore because she's British.

Just kidding! Just kidding! It was too easy not to take.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 09:56|| 2007-07-02 09:56|| Front Page Top

#11 The revelation raises the horrifying prospect that Al Qaeda propaganda is reaching beyond disaffected young Muslims. "These are highly-educated, articulate and intelligent people," one security source said. "They are men trained to heal but they were planning unbelievable atrocities."

As noted by Icerigger, the reportage desperately tries to connect terrorism to economic plight or lack of education rather than ideology. Neither is the above any sort of news. Years ago a survey was done of Palestinian bomb vest atttacks. The large majority of attackers were well educated individuals from middle class families and not the impoverished ignoramuses the media would have us think. The final unspoken implication they so fear to broach is that terrorism permeates Islamic culture at all levels.

There need to be severe repercussions for the Pakistani and Iraqi ministers who sanctioned these attacks. This is not just enabling behavior, they are effectively authorizing terrorist retaliation by their actions. Such evil should not go unrewarded. Both Musharraf and al-Maliki need to be castigated for their deafening silence on this matter.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-02 10:18|| 2007-07-02 10:18|| Front Page Top

#12 Oh and Zen, I forgot to mention Iran.

Sorry.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 10:29|| 2007-07-02 10:29|| Front Page Top

#13 Zenster:
There need to be severe repercussions for the Pakistani and Iraqi ministers who sanctioned these attacks. This is not just enabling behavior, they are effectively authorizing terrorist retaliation by their actions

You're not usually known for your soft wording, Zen. I would have said the statements were orders, myself, rather than authorisations.

...although not having read the statements in the native tongue puts me at a slight disadvantage. I have not heard the words "fatwa" or "fard" mentioned; does anybody else know the implications in respect to Islamic Sharia? Not that Sharia is a monolithic beast by any means, but any parallels or legal principles which confirm this theory?

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 10:45|| 2007-07-02 10:45|| Front Page Top

#14 Years ago a survey was done of Palestinian bomb vest atttacks. The large majority of attackers were well educated individuals from middle class families and not the impoverished ignoramuses the media would have us think. The final unspoken implication they so fear to broach is that terrorism permeates Islamic culture at all levels.

It's fascinating watching you come so close to getting it, almost stumbling over the truth, but then regaining your balance and wandering away from it.

You notice that a survey of Pakistani bombers came mostly from the middle or upper class, in a country where most people aren't, and then conclude that it's all because of islam.

If the higher classes in Pakistan were Moslem and all the lower classes Christians, Jews, and Hindus, that conclusion might make sense.

You're so interested in turning the fight against fanaticism into the fight against the billion or so people who live in an arc running from Morocco to Mindanao that you actually pass up, if not actively reject, information that could actually work in the fight against the fanatics.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-07-02 10:53|| 2007-07-02 10:53|| Front Page Top

#15 You notice that a survey of Pakistani bombers came mostly from the middle or upper class, in a country where most people aren't, and then conclude that it's all because of islam.

If the higher classes in Pakistan were Moslem and all the lower classes Christians, Jews, and Hindus, that conclusion might make sense.

...rrrrriiiight...

Ohhh Kayyy thennnnnnnnnnn.

So forget the "war on terror" (a misnomer in my book, in any case) forget "Wars on Islamofascism" or "Jihadism"

"War on Middle Classes" it is then.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 11:10|| 2007-07-02 11:10|| Front Page Top

#16 A.S.

#1 - Correlation is NOT Causation

#2 - I do not rule out the option of turning moderates against extremists, as you advocate. I do, however believe that those same "moderates" are endowed at birth with the same reason as me and that however damaged that may be by years or decades of indoctrination through fear of ostracism or death in many cases, that they have a right to see and hear the truth.

#3 The enemy of my enemy is my friend is a stupid Arab proverb. The enemy of your enemy is just that, nothing else. An ally at best.

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 11:23|| 2007-07-02 11:23|| Front Page Top

#17 The press is acting astounded that doctors could be involved in a terrorist plot. Che Guevara, Joseph Mengele, and Ayman Muhammad Rabaie al-Zawahiri are or were physicians.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-07-02 11:55|| 2007-07-02 11:55|| Front Page Top

#18 And it's sliding by you too.

I just tried googling on "middle class" and "fanaticism" and wound up with a bunch of sites regurgitating the same tired gorram marxist cant... kinda ironic because the group I was going to bring up next in the discussion: the weather underground.

How many of the people who were actually planting bombs and the like in the US in the 60's were the children of sharecroppers and the like?

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-07-02 12:15|| 2007-07-02 12:15|| Front Page Top

#19 Well I'll vote for cutting the Islamic areas off from civilisation and letting them keep at their religiously mandated level of technology (i.e. concentrating on the next meal instead of the next ied).

Posted by Bright Pebbles in Blairistan 2007-07-02 13:01|| 2007-07-02 13:01|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm afraid you've completely lost me on that one.

It must have slid by me entirely, whatever it is you were trying to say.

Alternatively you could just be a complete idiot. I'm going with that theory for the time being, until you can show me otherwise.

Are you actually suggesting that whenever I see pictures of seething hordes burning effigies of whatever happens to have annoyed them that day, waving banners proclaiming their intentions to kill and destroy, that this is caused by their "Middle Classness"?

Or that the Weather Underground were not motivated by Leninist / Trotskyist terror ideologies, but rather formed their opinions through excessive consumption of Starbucks Coffee & fairtrade chocolate?

Naturally, individuals with access to money and at least a rudimentary form of education are likely to stand a higher chance of succeeding in creating attacks of more serious proportions.

However, in this case, it seems that even a Doctorate in medicine wasnt quite sufficient to teach this one Jihadi to bring explosives to a bomb attack

Posted by Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-07-02 13:34|| 2007-07-02 13:34|| Front Page Top

#21 Alternatively you could just be a complete idiot. I'm going with that theory for the time being, until you can show me otherwise.

And I'm going to go with the theory that you're a mental defective who's so concerned about carrying out your own pathetic little prejudices that you don't care about losing the war as a result.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-07-02 13:56|| 2007-07-02 13:56|| Front Page Top

#22 And I'm going to assume you both mean well, and would have communicated much more effectively face to face instead of via keyboard and monitor.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-07-02 14:28|| 2007-07-02 14:28|| Front Page Top

#23 Cagefight!!!!
And if you two make it worth putting it on pay-per-view, this could open a brand new genre in sports spectacle! I mean, I'm sure people would pay good money to see, say, Johnny Knoxville rassles Bigfoot!

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-07-02 14:32|| 2007-07-02 14:32|| Front Page Top

#24 I wonder if Doctor Death was a qualified Doctor?

Hopefully someone in MI5 will be checking, and if he's not we have to go through all the Doctors who are 'slammers in the UK.

The US should consider doing the same.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2007-07-02 14:53|| 2007-07-02 14:53|| Front Page Top

#25 It appears the Jordanian, who is the one badly burned, worked at a hospital in London. The Iraqi worked at the Glasgow hospital where the Jordanian is being treated.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-02 15:03|| 2007-07-02 15:03|| Front Page Top

#26 A few more human examples of reasons to encourage the use of contraceptives amongst "asians." hahaha

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-02 16:16|| 2007-07-02 16:16|| Front Page Top

#27 If so, pull him out of that particular hospital immediately, he'll likely have friends, allies, fellow jihadists, etc there (Aid, escape, suicide, etc)

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-07-02 16:26|| 2007-07-02 16:26|| Front Page Top

#28 A few more human examples of reasons to encourage the use of contraceptives amongst "asians."

Send them free condoms.

Posted by 8872 2007-07-02 17:07|| 2007-07-02 17:07|| Front Page Top

#29 re #25, it appears from this story that the guy who was burned was neither the Jordanian nor the Iraqi doctor. If he is a physician, that leaves the "Indian convert from Hinduism to Islam" that was mentioned in original reports. I.e. Pakistani from Kashmir, at a guess.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-02 17:52|| 2007-07-02 17:52|| Front Page Top

#30 With all due respect admiral, you didn't lose the plot because you couldn't. You never picked up on it to begin with.

Why is it that the most despicable acts of terrorism are committed by the middle and upper class no matter what the totalitarian cause? From ME Islamist radicals to European leftists all the way across the pond to American and South American leftist groups, its usually successful people or people from successful families that do the dirty work. Chew on that for a bit and get back to us. If it helps uncloud your mind, remove terrorism from this question and just concentrate on the other groups.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 18:11|| 2007-07-02 18:11|| Front Page Top

#31 Snowman's got a good point.
"How many of the people who were actually planting bombs and the like in the US in the 60's were the children of sharecroppers and the like?"
The poor are usually struggling too hard just to survive to be able to engage in re-ordering of the social structure, whether through force or debate. Plus, it doesn't occur to them to try - they don't have the education or exposure to alternatives to even imagine the actions (excepting, now, Islamic mosque/madrassa 'education'). No, 'revolutionaries' come from the well-to-do, who have the education, resources and time to be 'active'; Jefferson couldn't have written the Declaration of Independence if he was back on the farm weeding the tobacco plants instead of having slaves doing it; Khomeini couldn't have organized the overthrow of the Shah if he was shoving sheep from one clump of brush to another (not equating the two, just the circumstances allowing them to build revolutions.) To stop this most dangerous Islamic 'revolution' we need to address the educated, non-poor who for some demented reason have been drawn to the Evil One.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-07-02 18:28|| 2007-07-02 18:28|| Front Page Top

#32 With the islamics I don't think there is a single profile for a terrorist. Islam is the driver of terrorism. It just depends who picks up on the fanaticism. Much of the fanaticism gets flamed in the mosques.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-07-02 18:40|| 2007-07-02 18:40|| Front Page Top

#33 Not just the Moskkks, John. Its very important that we remember that the "schools" are worse because the kids spend more time there. It would stand to reason that the more time an orc spends in "school" the more likely they are to be radicalized.

This furthers highlights how critical it is to separate church from state. We tend to think that spreading democracy in the ME is just about secular governments, its not. We, as a culture have forgotten that the ME, or anywher else for that matter, cannot have a democracy without separating church and state. This is job one for any democracy because it cannot exist otherwise.

Those in this thread that are claiming its all classes, not just the poor, are correct, but they are correct for the wrong reason.

The poor are just that. The poor bastards are along for the ride.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 18:49|| 2007-07-02 18:49|| Front Page Top

#34 My mother's family lives in and around Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire. It's a typically British small post-industrial town. It doesn't have (or at least didn't when I was last there a few years ago) a large immigrant population or any kind of racial problems. Thinking about, probably a good place to escape the notice of anti-terrorism police.

Posted by phil_b 2007-07-02 18:58|| 2007-07-02 18:58|| Front Page Top

#35 This furthers highlights how critical it is to separate church from state. We tend to think that spreading democracy in the ME is just about secular governments, its not. We, as a culture have forgotten that the ME, or anywher else for that matter, cannot have a democracy without separating church and state. This is job one for any democracy because it cannot exist otherwise.

Absolutely, Mike N. Here, we are in total agreement. It is why dismantling Iran's leadership is so important. Islamic theocracy must go. Without wishing to put too fine a point upon it, please understand how the Koran's core doctrine mandates installation of ~~a caliphate~~ theocratic government at every turn. This is why I went to such lengths yesterday in clarifying about how shari'a law and Islam are completely inseparable. Shari'a is the legal code while the Koran is a manual for the violent and forceful installation of that selfsame code.

Those in this thread that are claiming its all classes, not just the poor, are correct, but they are correct for the wrong reason.

The poor are just that. The poor bastards are along for the ride.

I dispute this. Somehow, France's proletariats manned the barricades in order to overthrow an eliteist and abusive aristocracy. To quote Jim Morrison's Marxist mouthings, "They've got the guns but we've got the numbers".

The poor aren't just "along for the ride", they are a social substrate that has the ability to enable or defeat those who would use them as so much fodder. Islam's underclass has yet to demonstrate any displeasure with their clerical elite's malfeasance. While I would much rather selectively target the Islamic aristocracyif success remains wantingat some point the poor will have to answer for their own lack of response. Yes, they should be last in line, but they are not, and cannot remain utterly immune. Nazi Germany's underclassat least those who escaped the ovensenjoyed no such respite, nor should Islam's poor. Just as our colonial forefathers were obliged to place their lives on the line to thwart tyranny, so must Islam's underprivileged Muslims.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-02 20:00|| 2007-07-02 20:00|| Front Page Top

#36 I'm not buying all of this but I'll throw my unsolicited $.02 in anyway.

It seems obvious to me that upper &/or midclass muslims (though I'm not sure what the economical measurement is for middle class - western or MME standards?) would be the architects behind most terror plots. Money, logistics, assets, tribal power, connections, access to western education, leadership ascribed to them due to father's wealth as part of their regional social mores (i.e. - social mobility due to hard work doesn't get the same recognition in the ME as it does in the west - better to be the son of a general than of a farmer who worked his way up), etc. The wealthy are usually the idea men in the ME, I'd venture Pakiland falls in that boat as well.

IMHO - a plausible psychological reason for some supposedly middle-class muslim to go postal in the face of conventional western wisdom is that they are trying to amend for some misplaced inner guilt. Not for being born wealthy like the white guilt ridden pussys in our country, but because of their taste for western "decadence" via their wealth, etc. Though I have no hard evidence to back me up nor claim to (other than my own experiences) - I think they have a need to lash out at what they see as a western society that's tempted them to taint their islamic faith. I find this all terriby ironic as you'd think that the *higher* educated folks such as doctors would see easily clear contradictions from the koran for things as simple as a person's anatomy. Then I'd figure God given logic would kick in and they'd connect the dots about the rest of it.

Beyond that, most of the dudes doing the killing by vbied or otherwise in iraq were poor guys - granted - cannon fodder. A lot of the ones that got whacked were poor illiterate schleps from other ME countries.

$$$ shot - *if* conservatively there are 15% of 1.2B muzzies that are extreme (at least according to Pipes) - that's about 150 million folks that want to kill us, have us pay the dhimmi, or whatever condition I'm not a big fan of. Call me cynical but I doubt the majority of them are middle class.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-02 20:28|| 2007-07-02 20:28|| Front Page Top

#37 Zen, two things.

1) You're point about the French only points to the age old truth that the poor fight the wars. Which, if you take a good look, supports my position. The poor are lead by the more successful revolutionary leadership. The poor in "developing" nations generally are uneducated and ignorant and have a tendency to be impressed and inspired by good public speakers, which a person can't be without an education of some sorts. Think of them as a source of labor being tapped by their leaders. In Americas case, they had been tapped by philosophically exceptional leadership. In Islams case, they are being tapped by leadership following a philosophy that shit is too good to describe. I cannot overstate the importance of who influences and ultimately leads the poor.

The various western revolutions happened at what was essentially the peak of the enlightenment. If you'll indulge me for a moment, I would like to compare Islam today to early western enlightenment. Islam is just beginning its enlightenment. For the most part, anyone in the ME teaching anything unacceptable to the church suffers the same fate that western blasphemers did. Think Galileo Galilei. Hell, for that matter, think 50's rock musicians.

I still insist that Islam can be an individual religion without being a state religion. It might not be as easy as it was with Shintoism(sp?), but it is possible. I know this because it has already been done. Turkey aint just good eatin, its the model for the future of Islam.

The west had already separated church and state when the industrial revolution came, allowing the west its explosive expansion in wealth and all the things that brings. Most importantly, power outside of the government which is power to influence government. Arguably, these two combined forces more than anything is what put us lightyears ahead of Islam.

While the ME can't realistically expect to get in on some sort of second industrial revolution, separation of church and state will still bring yet untold advantages for the people. (I don't want to harp on Turkey, but even though they missed out on the industrial revolution, they've done pretty damn well) Its no secret that people generally do well for themselves when not ruled by repressive theocratic or kleptocratic thugs. Once the repressive church no longer holds people back by serving functions that belong to the state, barring kleptocrats, the people will succeed, bringing them power outside the government and therefore power over the government.

This country is a fine example of what a people can achieve when they have power over the government. (by no means am I saying that Palestine is the new America)

This is a very long war and strategies that might look like they will win it relatively quickly will not. This war has a longer lifespan than anyone reading this. At 29, I do not expect to live to see the end.

Oh, and don't worry, it won't take as long as western enlightment. Islam has the advantage of the entire western world already showing Islam the way and actively "assisting" it along. That's an incredibly powerful advantage over anything Europe had.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 20:58|| 2007-07-02 20:58|| Front Page Top

#38 Somehow, France's proletariats manned the barricades in order to overthrow an eliteist and abusive aristocracy.

Maximilien Marie Isidore de Robespierre was hardly a member of the proleteriat.

Posted by Pappy 2007-07-02 20:59|| 2007-07-02 20:59|| Front Page Top

#39 Broadhead6, that's a good point about lashing out at what it hates. Much like the straight guy breaking a bottle over the fags head because the straight guy secretly wants to give cone.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 21:03|| 2007-07-02 21:03|| Front Page Top

#40 wow, Mike N. #37 was intelligent and thought-out without vitriol. I don't think we can be friends, I'd feel inadequate, LOL

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-02 21:39|| 2007-07-02 21:39|| Front Page Top

#41 Frank, eat me.

Can we be friends now?

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 21:42|| 2007-07-02 21:42|| Front Page Top

#42 OK, but you get your own damn drinks in the O-Club, k?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-02 21:53|| 2007-07-02 21:53|| Front Page Top

#43 Mike - have you ever watched "Sleeper Cell: American Terror"? If not - there's a muslim guy whose a part of a cell that's gay - kind of same thing in converse.

I hope you're right about their enlightenment phase. I've considered that as well. A couple of my superfluous brain droppings fwiw:
(let me preface that I am not a religious zealot by any stretch, I'm just putting forth unproven pontifications based of my take on western history and christianity - not meant to advocate any org religion as I am not a big fan of any)

*Muslims say that islam is their politics. I'm not sure christianity ever had anything of that parallel (sure, medieval a sides where the king was ordained by the church, etc). Plus, the whole ethical construct of Jesus of Nazareth is about a 180 degree swing from the central prophet in islam. Not only his historical roots but also his occupation, dealings w/peoples of different ethnic backgrounds, beliefs, etc. Point is, islam is politics for a good portion, that's a hard issue to crack.

*Someone pointed out the "give unto ceasar" proverb. I'm not sure islam has a parallel concept & I'm not sure how to get them to that point. You mentioned Turkey, admittedly I'm not as educated on how they've come to this point in history chronologically - I'll have to do some studying. We trained w/them once about 9 yrs ago during a joint training evolution. Not very impressive from a military or hygenic standpoint, though I digress. IIRC, Turks are also of different ethnic leanings than the rest of the ME? Least the ones I knew in Detroit were adamant that they were not related to the arab.

* Other than what I advocated about debunking islamic teachings the other day in that long thread we had - my hope for the rest of the ME is small. The ceasar concept has allowed many christians to co-exist real well with many forms of gov't.

*Maybe islam at this point in time is where christianity was in about 1375 a.d. - fortunately during europe's enlightenment wmd's, mass transit, oil, nuclear technology, and mass media were not an issue. I hope islam's enlightenment isn't so painful that those weapons are called for or used. I'm uncertain at this point. My real hope is that one of their fool's doesn't get the chance to open our pandora's box. Also, will we have the patience to help them through their growing pains? If the oil runs out and we go alternative will we? Another factor - China - will they be patient if the oil goes dry in 50 yrs?

*We've also touched on muslim middle class extremism. I've tied it to a guilt/lash out reflex - totally debateable but the best I could come up w/off the top of my head. Right now, we are actively educating the iraqis. Most Americans believe education tends to make a more liberal less extremist religious society. I'd say the same on the surface. However, if we've already discussed that higher educated, more affluent muslims are perpetuating, financing, & planning the most violent acts then what's the point? IMHO - basic education is fine *but* if we don't as a society start challenging islam in the theoretical and academic arena (to include not feeling guilty about satire and cartoons) and don't stand are f*cking ground on the undisputable facts and truth then why educate these people? If we're gonna get all weak kneed about telling it like it is and kowtowing everytime one of these b*tches crows about being offended then let's just save the money. Why have them become more upwardly mobile and affluent if in the end it only makes them better at supporting and planning negative things for the west? If we don't attach some sort of concrete no-shit plan to really moderate these folks (to include dealing w/some of their f*cked up religious leaders) then I'd say we're wasting our cash.

*okay, I've killed enough bandwidth.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-02 21:54|| 2007-07-02 21:54|| Front Page Top

#44 Broadhead6 - I always consider your input a great use of Fred's bandwidth. I'm generous that way, with someone else's resources, but I don't think Fred would disagree :-)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-02 21:57|| 2007-07-02 21:57|| Front Page Top

#45 Broadhead6, the Turks are Turkic, the Arabs are Semitic. Another way of saying Asia Minor vs. the Middle/Near East/Fertile Crescent. Turkey's split came after the Ottoman Empire fell around WWI. Their big hero, Kamil Ataturk, attributed the Ottoman decline to the religion/politics singularity that you discuss, and decreed the removal of Islam from the public sphere, to be enforced by the Army. It worked until the EU forced acceptance of Islamic parties in politics.

Unless you wanted a deeper analysis, in which case you'll need someone else. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2007-07-02 22:05|| 2007-07-02 22:05|| Front Page Top

#46 Thanks Frank. Ditto.

Question for the crowd (and I'm being serious) - are there any sects of Islam that promote scientific learning &/or push for learning outside of literature or soft sciences?

I'm not familiar w/any though that doesn't mean there are not any. Point being, catholic church actually encourage one of it's org's to pursue scientific research (can't remember details). If the muslims had a similar thing then that's the sect in their faith we need to take a look at.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-02 22:07|| 2007-07-02 22:07|| Front Page Top

#47 Turkey aint just good eatin, its the model for the future of Islam.

Then the future of Islam doesn't look very appealing as the Turkish military has overthrown the civilian government 3 times in the last 60 years, and may be on the verge of doing so again.

Remember that between Galileo and Voltaire lies the 17th century, when the Europeans resolved their religious differences by the adoption of the policy of cuius regio eius religio. How deeply this has increased the liberality of Europe is demonstrated by the decision of Tony Blair to announce his conversion to Roman Catholocism two days ago instead of two years ago.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-07-02 22:18|| 2007-07-02 22:18|| Front Page Top

#48 sects? Dunno of any specific. There's a huge number of ex-Iranians who were educated, then came to the US for college - my alma mater - San Diego State - a had a bunch in 79-83 (my term) that were none too interested in going home. They were muslims who would hoist beers Fridays with my fraternity guys in Monty's Den. I work with a few still (24 yrs later, and they stay in character - either they are in DEEP cover, or the Zen std is BS). Most are pretty good civil engineers, and, as far as I know, not planning to kill me

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-02 22:20|| 2007-07-02 22:20|| Front Page Top

#49 my point being - there are Iranians, et al, who value technical education, and (apparently) want it for productive "i.e.: western" reasons - good salary, productive for society, ~~as much~~ status as engineers ~~get~~,....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-02 22:26|| 2007-07-02 22:26|| Front Page Top

#50 Broadhead, I've never heard of the flick, but will keep an eye out for it. Sounds interesting to say the least. The contradictions alone are worth it.

Turkey is Shia, btw. Ata- something or other(I'm drawing a blank on spelling) Separated church from state in 1920.

The ethical differences between Islam and the religions that don't suck are indeed considerable. I'm not all that up on Islam, but I believe you are correct. They don't have a render unto ceaser clause. Islam hides with taqqiya instead.

The Church as it was in Europe was, in one way, very similar to the church today in Islam in that it could, with little more than a few words, call men to arms. In addition, it also called many wealthy people to fund and lead the army. (basically wealthy landowners/knights funded and lead their own armies for the purpose of serving the churches military goals. This was how the armies were raised for the crusades) This is by far the most important thing that must go and had to go in Europe. Without an ability to raise an army, the church cannot fill more than token functions of the state. The real power will be taken by those with an army. "the guy with the guns collects the taxes."

Islam has no choice but to someday turn state functions over to the state. If they don't, they will run out of money when the oil runs out. Either way, they're done as a state. No money = no army. If they don't turn over the power to the state before the oil money runs out, they're gonna be jealous of the rest of Africa. Bones in the lip are gonna start looking pretty extravagant.

I mostly agree with your point about education. They invented numbers, if they can't figure out 2 + 2, screw 'em. I also agree that Islam needs to be aggressively challenged on its bullshit. Christianity was challenged with new discoveries and new philosophies, Islam need only be challenged with what's already well known.

Because of things like its ethics and its lack of recognition of the state, Islam will in ways be harder to reform than Christianity was. In other ways, it will be easier. While Christianity was grappling with incredible discoveries that turned the world on its head, things like the world really isn't flat and the earth isn't the center of the universe. In addition to the newfound philosophy that the church really shouldn't act as the state. What Islam has to comes to grips with is common sense. Things like, if you beat your wife you should get punched in your face and personal hygene. We already invented those products for them.

This war will be won when Islam separates church and state. It will because it has to. The teachings of Islam will adapt to fit the new paradigm or it will die out.

Either way is fine with me.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 22:40|| 2007-07-02 22:40|| Front Page Top

#51 Fits and spats, NS. I refer you to the fine post a week or so ago by Chuck Simmins regarding Americas early difficulties.

In addition to his post, I would also draw your attention to the civil war. That post covers our first 40 years. A generation from that this country was torn in half and no sooner did it come back together and we lost our President to a home grown assassin.

It took this country a century to get it together. Also, using this country as a yard stick by which to measure all others is, quite frankly, completely unfair to the rest of this stupid world.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-02 22:52|| 2007-07-02 22:52|| Front Page Top

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