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Abbas calls for end of armed uprising
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Iraq-Jordan
The Vigilante Problem
There about 115,000 Iraqi security troops on duty. This includes police, troops and security forces that basically guard things like power plants and oil facilities. Journalists over there tend to concentrate on those incidents where Sunni Arab soldiers or police run away. But the majority of the Iraqi armed forces and police are doing their job. The jails are filling up with criminals again, and the Sunni Arab gangs in central Iraq often attack Iraqi police and soldiers, only to find that they are Kurds or Shia Arabs, who are eager to shoot right back. Even some of the Sunni Arab police fight, but that isn't news.

The Sunni Arab terrorism is giving rise to an increasing amount of similar actions by Shia Arab groups. The Shia Arabs, unlike the Sunni Arabs, are not trying to take over the government. Once elections are held next month, the Shia Arabs will be the largest block in parliament. What the Shia gunmen are looking for now is revenge. What outsiders often forget is that decades of terrorism and violence by Saddam was done most often by Sunni Arabs who did not hide their identities. The Shia took names, and some are not waiting for trials. They have lists, and are out looking for Sunni Arabs to kill. It is personal. And the police are not bothering much with these vigilantes.

NATO has agreed to help Iraq train police commanders and army officers, but few NATO members will actually send trainers. Most Iraqis (the Kurds and Shia Arabs) believe that the violence in central Iraq is supported by Saddam Hussein's many friends. This in includes Iraq's Sunni Arab neighbors, and many European countries (Russia and France were major weapons suppliers to Saddam). So NATO's reluctance to help them makes sense. Conspiracy theories are popular in Iraq, the one about France and Russia wanting to put Saddam back in power has gained some traction.
"Excellent work, Smithers"
"Thank you, sir"

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 9:52:26 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [20 views] Top|| File under:

#1  So, um, where's the problem? Vigilantes serve their purpose during times when there is insufficent or non-neutral local law. It fades as bona-fide law takes root - local law and enforcement that is trustworthy and even-handed - and that always has and always will take time. Most societies have a tradition, a custom, of some sort dealing with feuds and overripe blood debts. Certainly the Arabs do.

"Laws are sand, customs are rock. Laws can be evaded and punishment escaped but an openly transgressed custom brings sure punishment."
-Twain

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the posse is being formed and there are some necks to be stretched - for decades of wanton violence perp'ed under the aegis of Saddam's thugocracy. Payback's a bitch.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:21 Comments || Top||

#2  My thoughts exactly, .com. In fact, among the most consequential disappointments with Iraqi performance, post-liberation, has been the LACK of ferocious score-settling directed against the portion of the Sunni community implicated in the decades of despotism. Obviously in the majority-Sunni heartland like al-Anbar this wouldn't apply, but within B'dad and perhaps northern Babil, and around Mosul, the Shi'a and Kurds should have gone medieval on their erstwhile tormentors. I know there has been an ongoing, limited, and barely reported (Strategy Page talked about it yesterday, I think) campaign of informal retribution by non-Sunni hit squads. But imagine how much further we'd be in the civil war to crush the violent part of the Sunni community if their former victims had cleaned house in mixed areas like B'dad metro and northern Babil. This is a politically incorrect little item making up part of the The Blindingly Obvious Fact That Dare Not Speak Its Name: Iraqi performance has been the main problem since liberation, not anything done/not done by the US or coalition.
Posted by: Verlaine || 12/14/2004 10:31 Comments || Top||

#3  payback's a bitch.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:40 Comments || Top||

#4  And, to some degree at least - certainly a distant second to Turkey's betrayal, that lack has exacerbated the post-war occupation woes that are constantly heaped on Rummy by the 20/20 hindsight voyeurs and hand-wringers. Sigh. They are slow, aren't they? Especially for all the tough talk about Arabs and their blood feuding. The whole stable of MSM BS has been utterly discredited, from the vaunted tough Afghan fighters and their brutal winters to the terrible blood oaths of Arabs. Yadda3. Yeah, we've heard it - and it didn't happen. So much romantic twaddle by cheesedick reporters, so few facts. Pfeh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#5  rollback of Arabization is a problem huh? I'd like to see it rolled WAyyyyyy back
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#6  verlaine - are you seriously suggesting that Rummy was counting on Shia vigilantes, and that the problems of the occupation are due to their absence?

Lets get real folks - we didnt go into Iraq to avenge the Sunni deeds against the Shia - we went into Iraq to strenghten our position in the region. Now I know that there are two ways that works the public plan (which I favor) of making Iraq a model for democracy. And the implicit plan, preferred by many here, of scaring the bejeezuz out of everyone in the region. To some extent these strategies conflict - the first strategy requires a greater emphasis on hearts and minds, the second on showing how much it sucks to be beaten by the US. And they conflict as far as initial numbers of troops - the democracy strategy needed large numbers to restore order and rebuild society - the make em quake in fear strategy required showing what we could do with only three divisions.

But vigilantes does neither. On the one hand it gets the entire Sunni Arab world to hate you (especially as vigilantes have nasty tendency to go beyond justice, and to get the wrong people, or to pursue personal grudges aside from war crimes, etc) and it ALSO fails to make the Sunni arab world fear - there is no similar demographic situation anywhere else in the region - a vigilante strategy CANT be repeated, and so adds to reason for sunni arabs OUTSIDE of Iraq to fear. To go with a vigilante strategy is a sign of FAILURE, a willingness to settle for whatever will get Iraq under control, and get us out of the "quagmire" and give up on Iraq as a WIN in the WOT.

And, BTW, it was Rummys job to have backup plans, not to count on Turkey.

I mean at some point you have to use hindsight. No one here, or in the MSM, or in the blogosphere could judge Rummy with foresight, since we were not (and are not) privy to his plans, the info he had available, etc. We can ONLY judge by the results. Which, while not as bad as the more alarmist segments of the MSM imply, seem to be worse than they should have been.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 10:56 Comments || Top||

#7  Lh - Thank your for your contribution.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:57 Comments || Top||

#8  Your welcome.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#9  "You're"

Tanx.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:03 Comments || Top||

#10  Since when has perfection been an option in the real world?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 11:11 Comments || Top||

#11  good comments LH.

As an aside, not meant to contradict - I don't understand this piling on Rumsfeld. He's not an all seeing God. He had to make a billion decisions and the idea that he could conduct the "Perfect War"TM is ridiculous. You can always say, "it could have been done better". Quite frankly, I think we were lucky to have Rumsfeld, as I think few others would have had the strength to do it as well.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:13 Comments || Top||

#12  Good Lord, I remember reading about vigilante murder of Saddam's henchmen right after the invasion...April or May of last year, or thereabouts. This is fish wrap stuff! In Germany, Jewish troops were quietly hunting down Nazis for considerably longer than this -- it will go away when the courts are processing cases at full speed.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 11:46 Comments || Top||

#13  among the most consequential disappointments with Iraqi performance, post-liberation, has been the LACK of ferocious score-settling directed against the portion of the Sunni community implicated in the decades of despotism.

Nonsense. The Kurds and Shia have acted with great restraint because they are grownups and actually want a peaceful, governable country based on the rule of law.

I have great respect for the Kurdish leaders and Sistani based on how they have restrained things in anticipation of elections. Verlaine, OTOH, takes a narrow, shortsighted and counterproductive stance.
Posted by: Theans Angomotch9553 || 12/14/2004 11:51 Comments || Top||

#14  2b - oh, yeah, Rummy made a lot of good decisions. I think he did very well in the war in Afghanistan, and in the first few months post 9/11 generally. It may well turn out, when we have fuller info, that he did about as well as could have been done in Iraq. I dont really know. What I have problems with is the tendency to jump hard on any criticism of Rummy, and to deny the extent to which things ARE screwed up in Iraq.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 11:53 Comments || Top||

#15  LH - fair enough. I'm a knee-jerk Rummy defender, and will rethink. My main bitch is that the same people (Dems, MSM, etc.) that criticize him for (pick one, or several) not using enough troops, armor, etc., would undoubtedly be the loudest Rummy critics if he had sent another 100,000 troops over. Quagmire!
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#16  What I have problems with is the tendency to jump hard on any criticism of Rummy, and to deny the extent to which things ARE screwed up in Iraq.

Hmmm...I guess I just haven't noticed that tendency in the MSM :-)

Seriously, I have no problem with constructive criticism, but 99.9% of what I've read is nothing but useless, woulda,coulda,shoulda. I don't think it's constructive.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:58 Comments || Top||

#17  I asked it on another thread, but I'm curious LH. If Rumsfeld sucks so bad, who do you think was the right person to conduct the war in Iraq?
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:05 Comments || Top||

#18  Lh / Theans Whatever - Hey, folks, I'm the vigilante guy. Pick on me, K? You are woefully ignorant of history if you don't know, understand, and see where vigilantism occurs and why.

Restraint on the part of the Kurds, I completely agree with. They are busy building a very nifty capitalist society - and policing their own and their area most effectively. Kudos to them - I wish they were independent of the baggage of Arabs.

Regards Sistani, name all of his positive accomplishments on behalf of the Shi'a who blindly follow him? Compared to what he might have done? Rummy gets whacked for anything and everything that goes awry in post-war Iraq - and Iraqis such as Sistani get a pass. Bullshit. Sistani's actually been AWOL / MIA in terms of doing anything more than the minimum of, say, breathing. Bush spends capital attempting to accomplish goals. Other leaders, such as Putty, Sistani, et al, seem to hoard their capital and polish their knobs.

When the Arab Iraqis pull on their bootstraps and get serious about doing something for themselves, then positive shit will happen. Blaming Rummy for their lazy blame society and the lack of Shi'a accomplishment to counter the Sunni insanity of longing for The Good Old Days sorta reeks of disingenuity to me. I know you guys are after the same thing I am, a free and democratic Iraq, but let's be even-handed and call a spade a spade, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:06 Comments || Top||

#19  Dot com - once again, it was Rummys job to PLAN for things like Sistani being a problem. Thats what youre supposed to do when you occupy a country like Iraq - you dont assume it will all go hunky dory. You recognize that things locally are gonna go wrong, and you have resources to deal with that. Its Rummys job to assure the interests of the United States, its not Sistani's. There were folks who said this couldnt work, cause the locals were too fucked up. I didnt agree then - and IIRC, neither did you. But I did think that we were going to manage this thing well ourselves. Look dot com, you have yourself made inciteful criticism of how we deal with Sistani and the locals - maybe Rummy needed a dot com at his side. At least if hed listened to you he would have known how f*cking hard it would be to fix an arab society. Maybe he did know - but its sure hard to get that impression from the planning that was done (or largely not done) I suggest reading Hanlons piece in full.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#20  Sistani's actually been AWOL / MIA in terms of doing anything more than the minimum of, say, breathing

Somebody needs to be reading the news and thinking about it more. Sistani gave his support to crushing Sadr's Mahdi. As a result elections WILL happen soon.

If you don't see that as a serious contribution, your ability to judge anything about Iraq is called into major question.
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 12:20 Comments || Top||

#21  Magic wands. Rumsfeld was SORELY lacking in his failure to procure and issue them prior to the invasion.

Nasty nasty SECDEF. Not nearly as competant as armchair critics with loud rhetoric.

Pfah.
Posted by: too true || 12/14/2004 12:21 Comments || Top||

#22  Why do I feel like I've just been had? Lol!

Well I guess we part ways regards our expectations. I don't care for the blame society. I believe in what I believe is a pragmatic approach: you plan for the knowns, try to buffer up resources for the unknowns, and deal with shit as it happens - for the plan is toilet paper 5 minutes after the show begins. [Hey, it's how I live my life - do you make plans which execute to perfection? Hey - I want some of your advice about my investments, heh!] I believe that's what Rummy did, IMHO, so I am naturally empathetic - and bristle at the second-guessing. So we have different approaches leading to different expectations. You think mine are whacked-out frequently enough, right? I think yours are the Pollyanna game in this case. Such is life.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:28 Comments || Top||

#23  I don't care for the blame society.

amen. If I was asked to point to the number cause for all ills we face, the "blame society" would top my list. Blame is nothing but a way to make yourself feel useful, without actually doing anything useful.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#24  rkb - You mean when he suddenly had a heart problem to fix in London? Lol! Oh yeah, he's been a peach of a leader. Y'know, your comment is pretty fucking arrogant... from here you may take it where you will.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#25  oops..number one cause

and just for the record LH...I'm not directing that complaint at you personally. Just stating my belief.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#26  As for Rummy, the Afghanistan campaign was a work of art. A masterpiece. Well planned, well executed. Iraq on the otherhand, while not as bad as is presented, could have been done better. The simple fact of the matter is that given the scope of the mission in Iraq, it is going incredible well. To deny that and try to "blame" Rummy for this or that is to deny history and to deny reality.

The ONLY way that the occupation could have gone "smoothly" would have been by bringing the full force of our power against them. To crush them. To beat any will to fight out of them. If we'd have had 100k more troops for the invasion and hit every area of Iraq hard, those troops could have made a difference. But today, 50k or 100k more troops will NOT make a difference at this point. What are they going to do? And don't forget this, we handed sovereignty over to the Iraqi's. They need to and are taking more responsibility for their own destiny. We don't need to double our footprint there. It will only breed resentment against us. What we need to do is everything we can to help the IP and ING to become an effective force as quickly as possible. Because while we are the ones stomping out the bad guys, we generate resentment and we hinder the growth of confidence in the IP and ING.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 12/14/2004 13:03 Comments || Top||

#27  Amen, AHM... The grief began (and continues) with Turkey's betrayal, but the future is exactly as AHM sez: with the Iraqis, themselves, making Iraq a better place once day at a time while we cover their backs.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:08 Comments || Top||

#28  Okay, my language was stronger than it needed to be.

But seriously, .com, I think you don't acknowledge the key role Sistani has been playing. That "heart problem" took him out of the country after several attempts at assasinating him and as we were moving in on the Mahdi holed up in a very holy Shia site -- a move he did not condemn at all and which threatened major damage to the shrine to which many are deeply attached.

More important overall is what he has consistently refused to do despite great pressure from some Shias - and against the influence of Iran's mullahs. He has refused, multiple times, to endorse the idea of an Islamic government in Iraq. His refusal of an overt leadership role politically is consistent with the form of piety for which he is considered the spiritual leader among Shia, but his rejection of Islamacism for the government was also a key factor in preventing either a greater Islamicist tone to the insurgency or a Shia uprising of their own.

He may not be a US puppet, but that's fine with me. From my perspective he, Allawi and others are doing pretty much what we might hope they would do in moving Iraqis along towards a stable, secular and peaceful representative government.

As for arrogance, well ... sometimes I'm guilty of that, although I hope not in this case. But from over here I might gently suggest that the demands of many here at RB and elsewhere that Rumsfeld have A Plan Which Foresaw and Accounted for All Possible Events seems to tend a bit in that direction as well ...

Anyway, peace bro? .....
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 13:19 Comments || Top||

#29  LH – Interesting post – couple of points:

Now I know that there are two ways that works the public plan (which I favor) of making Iraq a model for democracy. And the implicit plan, preferred by many here, of scaring the bejeezuz out of everyone in the region.


Making Iraq a democracy will, by its very nature, scare the bejeezuz out of everyone in the region because none of the governments in that region, with the exception of Israel, rest upon popular suffrage. Point in fact, the overwhelming majority of governments in that region must suppress popular suffrage in order to survive. This is evidenced by their continued use of military and paramilitary force against dissenting citizens, lack of an institutionalized and impartial legal system, opaqueness of the political and governmental process as well as an operative and independent fourth estate.

Your use of politically charged characterizations like “public” versus “implicit” strikes me as an unnecessary aside which detracts from your argument. We went in for a number of reasons, some validated, some disproved, but all discussed in the public market by a free and unfettered press and citizenry. .

To some extent these strategies conflict - the first strategy requires a greater emphasis on hearts and minds, the second on showing how much it sucks to be beaten by the US. And they conflict as far as initial numbers of troops - the democracy strategy needed large numbers to restore order and rebuild society - the make em quake in fear strategy required showing what we could do with only three divisions.

I don’t want to be overly contentious about this characterization other than to say it’s a meme that’s been advanced since the fall of Baghdad. The argument about the number of troops required for post-conflict stabilization versus initial invasion depends more upon the local national government, its legitimacy, police powers, etc. than our own. Restoring order requires paramilitary and police forces not military forces. Consequently, putting more infantry on the ground won’t, necessarily, enhance order but will increase US force protection requirements.

But vigilantes does neither. On the one hand it gets the entire Sunni Arab world to hate you (especially as vigilantes have nasty tendency to go beyond justice, and to get the wrong people, or to pursue personal grudges aside from war crimes, etc) and it ALSO fails to make the Sunni arab world fear - there is no similar demographic situation anywhere else in the region - a vigilante strategy CANT be repeated, and so adds to reason for sunni arabs OUTSIDE of Iraq to fear. To go with a vigilante strategy is a sign of FAILURE, a willingness to settle for whatever will get Iraq under control, and get us out of the "quagmire" and give up on Iraq as a WIN in the WOT.

In my experience as a prior Special Forces Captain, most of the world operates on the demographic situation that LH claims is not repeatable. The idea of local police operating under a formal code of laws in an impartial manner is the non-repeatable situation. Most of the places I’ve worked or visited, don’t have police. Justice, such as it may be, is delivered locally by “vigilantes” or not at all.

The assumption that there is a unified Sunni Arab world which will either hate or fear us, seems, perhaps, a bit naïve. Exactly which Sunni Arabs are you talking about? There are significant and historic dividing lines within the “Sunni Arab” world. It isn’t a singular group except to outsiders, typically with an agenda. Within the context of Iraq Sunni Arab tribal society, particularly in the towns and tribes sponsoring insurgent violence, vigilante justice –per se, is the normal condition. You may consider it a failure. They don’t. Vigilantism may be sanctioned or restrained by tribal necessities or religious proscriptions or it may ignore those if the grievance is considered serious enough by the affected parties.

If Iraq is a quagmire given the time and casualty rate, then how would you characterize WWII or the US Civil War, where more Americans were killed in a single battle than in Iraq to date? This sort of sloganeering speaks more to your fortitude than to the realities on the ground. We are the dominate military force in the country. Local national police, national guard (paramilitaries) and military forces are being built. Two thirds of the country and the majority of Iraqi population supports the current situation and looks forward to transitioning into some form of representative government..

And, BTW, it was Rummys job to have backup plans, not to count on Turkey.

I mean at some point you have to use hindsight. No one here, or in the MSM, or in the blogosphere could judge Rummy with foresight, since we were not (and are not) privy to his plans, the info he had available, etc. We can ONLY judge by the results. Which, while not as bad as the more alarmist segments of the MSM imply, seem to be worse than they should have been.

The presumption of perfection is a canard maintained only by those who remove themselves from responsibility. What should the results have been? Show me a comparable but more successful military/political operation? Certainly not the Revolutionary War, Civil War, Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.
Posted by: DaveK || 12/14/2004 13:19 Comments || Top||

#30  "Exactly which Sunni Arabs are you talking about? There are significant and historic dividing lines within the “Sunni Arab” world. It isn’t a singular group except to outsiders, typically with an agenda"

Please tell me which Sunni Arabs, anywhere from oman to Morocco, will be more friendly to the US, or to US supported experiments in democracy, due to vigilante justice by SHIA and KURDS in Iraq? Really, if you know of any, id be eager to find out. I did not say vigilante justice was rare - when i said the demographic situation was unique, I meant that to the extent we have an end result that Shia look on approvingly, but that Sunnis do not, it MIGHT help inspire pro-US democratic revolution in say, Iran, but not in the arab middle east - theres no other country where Sunni arabs are a minority and Shia are an overwhelming majority (although on reflection perhaps Bahrain is an exception to that)

What was the civil war? It was conflict in which Lincoln went through TWO secretaries of war, and numerous commanders in the East (hard to count, due to the confusing and changing command structure - do we count John Pope, for example? Meade AND Grant?)Similarly in WW2, Churchill went through 3 commanders in the Mideast before he got Montgomery, IIRC.

You misread me. I am NOT saying we wont pull this out and win, ultimately. As we did in the civil war and as we and our allies did in WW2. I am saying there is considerable appearnce, from the outside, of major incompetence. And a refusal to hold certain people accountable.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 13:40 Comments || Top||

#31  Justice, such as it may be, is delivered locally by “vigilantes” or not at all.

DaveK - that's an interesting thought. While a system of laws is preferable, it's far from perfect itself. Here in the US, rapists, child molestors and murderers are routinely set free to shatter an exponential number of lives. Rich and powerful often get a pass. Lawyers in the western world see justice as a game, and very frequently, justice is NOT served by our courts.

Laws and courts are the ideal, but justice correctly delivered by the hands of vigilantes is still "justice". The danger with vigilantes is simply that it is so easy for power to be abused. But I would say that our lawyers are often just as abusive.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#32  rkb - I took it that you were saying I'm not paying attention regards Iraq and Sistani's "actions" - hell, that's all I do, lol! I do believe he has largely wasted the last 18 months and acted for the greater good primarily by inaction. Indeed, by not coming to Sadr's aid in Najaf, instead flying off to London, he allowed Sadr to be seriously roughed up. It was opportune, and we laughed about it here IIRC, but the water was carried by the Jarines and Air Cav so I'm loathe to give Sistani credit for it. Okay - different views . In one regard you have me cold: I have a saying that "no answer is, indeed, an answer" so I'm hoisted on my own pitard there, heh.

In total I recall only 2 times Sistani has been constructive - first by saying he was apolitical way back after the invasion had succeeded in toppling Saddam and second regards Sadr and the Najaf operation - which was rather nice for him in that it marginalized Sadr completely.

I can think of several times when he was unhelpful, such as openly favoring Shi'a militia when another Shi'a cleric was bombed / killed, saying that the occupation was illegal, resistance was okay by him, and we should leave immediately, calling Allawi and the Interim Gov't illegal, openly opposing the Constitution and the panel writing it that he apparently failed to control - especially the Federal aspects and wymyn's rights, backing on the "slate of candidates" vs local representative democracy to boost the Shi'a's power, formulating the committee to create the Shi'a slate and rather stacking it with his kind of people: clerics, etc. I guess you could say that I think he failed to serve the Iraqi people, but served his own interests excusively.

So believe me: I am paying attention, heh. Too much for my sanity, lol! We're cool - just in disagreement over the value ol' 1000 yard stare here brings to the table:
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:46 Comments || Top||

#33  "I don't care for the blame society"

Now my head is spinning. I thought it was called the RESPONSIBILITY society, where folks are accountable for results.

If Iraq were a school district in the US, Rummy would have 12 months to meet numerical goals in terms of number of violent incidents, number of US casualties, etc, and if he failed to meet those numeric standards, the Iraqis would be able to reject US troops and instead be able to apply a portion of the US defense budget to CHARTER infantry divisions, instead. Rummy would say to hell with strategy, and would spend his time drilling officers in how to meet the numerical goals.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 13:46 Comments || Top||

#34  A typo, sheesh, after all that:
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:47 Comments || Top||

#35  LH, I agree that Rummy's arrogance has often been (to coin a phrase) unhelpful to our overall objectives in Iraq. No problem with criticizing him here.

But I think one source of the intense reaction your critiques generate here is the quite obvious bad faith of so many of those who also critique Rummy without ever having committed to promoting Iraqi democracy or overthrowing Saddam. As for me, when I hear someone criticize Rummy these days, I know it's an opening wedge for later arguments in favor of quietly, slowly, gradually walking away from Iraq. I predict that the most strident critiques of Rummy will soon come from isolationist Republicans. First Buchanan, then Novak, then Hagel and co, and finally from the Bush41 realpolitik crowd.

If you want to help us stay the course in Iraq, it's more helpful to couch your critiques as constructive and friendly. Replacing Rumsfeld now would be a green light to all the isolationist hyenas, both left and right, to call for bringing the boys home, moving the goalposts from promoting Iraqi democracy to promoting Iraqi stability, and a fortress America approach. I don't think that's the outcome you want.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:50 Comments || Top||

#36  Spin no more, Linda Blair. You're absolutely right, LIBERALhawk.

He failed to meet your specs, your criteria, in an obviously predictable endeavor. Apples = Oranges = Hot Dates at the Oasis. I will go wash my keyboard out with soap to atone. Rummy's shit. The entire situation is shit. Quagmire! Liberals should hang him. He should resign. Life sucks. Rummy's at fault.

Glad we're in agreement. Right. Okay-fine. Gotcha. Great. Cool. Neato. Gear. Fab. W00t!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#37  LH: You are one of those annoying fans who screams at the professional athletes about how much they suck - each and everytime they fail to move the ball forward - aren't you?

Tell the truth now.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||

#38  What I have problems with is the tendency to jump hard on any criticism of Rummy, and to deny the extent to which things ARE screwed up in Iraq.

Perhaps what you call "denial" is, in fact, recognition that things are LESS screwed up in Iraq than they were two years ago.

As for Rummy -- I rarely hear valid criticism of him. It's mainly Monday morning quarterbacking and whiny sniping by people who, intellectually, aren't fit to shine his shoes.

If Iraq were a school district...

You expect us to take you seriously after that?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 14:05 Comments || Top||

#39  But I think one source of the intense reaction your critiques generate here is the quite obvious bad faith of so many of those who also critique Rummy without ever having committed to promoting Iraqi democracy or overthrowing Saddam

Theres certainly plenty of bad faith on the left, and those whove heard me here no I despise it. Theres ALSO bad faith on the right as well. I havent let Karl Rove keep me from criticizing Michael Moore or John Kerry, and I wont let Robert Byrd or Dan Rather keep me from criticizing Rumsfeld.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:12 Comments || Top||

#40  You are one of those annoying fans who screams at the professional athletes about how much they suck - each and everytime they fail to move the ball forward - aren't you?

Tell the truth now.

I think its more like a team with a huge budget, just barely beating inferior teams, and several obviously bungled calls by the head coach. Just cause the team is pulling out wins, and just cause there are some idiots who think it will lose (when it wont) doesnt mean the coach should get a pass.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:15 Comments || Top||

#41  Perhaps what you call "denial" is, in fact, recognition that things are LESS screwed up in Iraq than they were two years ago

Less screwed up than under Saddam? So youre saying that unless Iraq is as bad off as it was under Saddam, the worst totalitarian on the planet, you wont accept that things are screwed up? Can anyone say "the soft bigotry of low expectations"?
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#42  and dont get me wrong. i would like events to prove me wrong. I would like nothing better than for Zarqawi to be capture this month, for the Iraqi elections to run smoothly, for the insurgency to collapse, and for US forces to be freed up for other tasks. Id rather have Rummy, and four years of a Bush clone after 2008, if we SUCCEED in this endeavour.

But if, in November of 2008, we're still talking about how plans go awry, and how at least things are better than they were under Saddam, and how people whined during WW2, I will NOT be with you.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||

#43  I believe you Lh. You're the cherry-picking strawman bees knees, bro.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:25 Comments || Top||

#44  I think its more like a team with a huge budget, just barely beating inferior teams, and several obviously bungled calls by the head coach. Just cause the team is pulling out wins, and just cause there are some idiots who think it will lose (when it wont) doesnt mean the coach should get a pass.

But there's no "final score" here with which to judge success. Even if you think there is one, this "game" is more like one of those cricket matches that goes on for weeks. And it's a match at which we are not even spectators. Your critique of our side's cricket coach, no matter how intelligent or convincing you may think it, is about as reliable as a translation of a Chinese reporter's version of a French weblogger's account of what his buddy told him he saw happen in the match from watching it intermittently on a barroom TV.

I'm sorry but none of us is an expert on troop strength or counter-insurgency in a post-stalinist multi-ethnic arab state.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 14:31 Comments || Top||

#45  I do believe he has largely wasted the last 18 months and acted for the greater good primarily by inaction.

Agreed, .com. However, that is consistent with Sistani's broader interpretation of Shia Islam, which is that clerics should not be involved in politics or governing -- a position we should be grateful for, I think. He went wobbly once or twice when it looked like the Sunnis were being cut a deal, but by and large he has refused to oppose us, which is a big help in and of itself even if he's not out there pro-actively giving sermons in favor of Allawi and the coalition. I don't doubt that clerics influenced by him have in turn influenced their listeners on Fridays, which has contributed to Shia patience in the runup to the elections.
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 14:38 Comments || Top||

#46  Why is it fair to criticize Rumsfeld for the political aspects of the Iraq campaign? I thought he was only responsible for the military. And is doing a reasonably good job of it.
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 14:39 Comments || Top||

#47  Less screwed up than under Saddam? So youre saying that unless Iraq is as bad off as it was under Saddam, the worst totalitarian on the planet, you wont accept that things are screwed up?

No. Not at all.

Were you expecting, perhaps, things to get better without going through the intermediate state of "screwed up, but better than it was"? We're in that intermediate state, and will be for a while. Focusing on the "it's screwed up" is worthless; it does nothing to solve the problems and, honestly, looks more like political point-scoring.

What did you expect to happen in Iraq? What standard are you judging against?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 14:40 Comments || Top||

#48  Why is it fair to criticize Rumsfeld for the political aspects of the Iraq campaign

Cause at least till Bremer left, and Negroponte came in, DoD was running the political aspects. Unless it comes out in the future that Bremer was forced on Rummy.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:41 Comments || Top||

#49  Why is it fair to criticize Rumsfeld for the political aspects of the Iraq campaign?

Because State is sacrosanct.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#50  what standard?

The insurgency, in mid 2003, is said to have numbered about 5000 men, and was under pressure as we rounded up Baathists. I expected that it would DECLINE from there, and that by now Iraq would be quiet. That wed be well into physical reconstruction, and that there would be zero cities where contractors couldnt go. Failing that, that at least the insurgency would be no worse than it was in summer 2003. That the borders would be secure.

Rantburg has an archive. Point me to where in 2003 you said that things would still be like this 20 months after the invasion.

Ive already discussed why its worth reviewing this.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:51 Comments || Top||

#51  rkb - Okay - agree to disagree with what he could've / should've done? Lol! The Shi'a have been cowed so long I'm not sure they really "got it" that they were finally free for awhile, heh. Even then, they were convinced they should be protesting the "invaders" and "occupiers" cuz that seemed the safest game - once they figure out that we wouldn't shoot them for protesting. Must've been a serious shock, heh. I can only imagine the mental machinations, though we had a few early Iraqi bloggers trying to illuminate us. Here's to tomorrow and the elections and the Iraqi security forces - may they survive first contact and realize they can actually do the job. :-)
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#52  Lh - Some (much?) of what you're describing does come from an unanticipated phenomenon: the flypaper effect.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:55 Comments || Top||

#53  Lex, you mentioned Lincoln's two secretaries of war. This reminds me of the Civil War in general... I was under the impression that Grant and Sherman were very controversial, and Lincoln had to spend a lot of political capital in order to keep the other politicians off their backs.

LH: I didn't think the insurgency would still be going on in Iraq to this extent because I thought by now we would have attacked their sources of logistical support in Syria and Iran (which everyone is pointedly not talking about, and reaching for issues to talk about instead, hence the every truck/jeep a tank meme).
Posted by: Phil Fraering || 12/14/2004 15:15 Comments || Top||

#54  rummy: a defense

the Weekly Standard:

"And Rumsfeld is correct to concentrate his efforts on building a set of military institutions that will be appropriate to the long-term fight in the greater Middle East and elsewhere. Rumsfeld is not the real problem with Bush administration policy--the problem has been, and remains, the unwillingness of the White House to increase defense spending sufficiently and to enlarge U.S. ground forces, especially the Army. This has much more to do with macro political judgments and the president's second-term agenda than anything inside the Pentagon. If told to rebuild the Army, Rumsfeld and Army chief of staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker would build the right kind of force."
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 15:40 Comments || Top||

#55  think its more like a team with a huge budget, just barely beating inferior teams, and several obviously bungled calls by the head coach. Just cause the team is pulling out wins, and just cause there are some idiots who think it will lose (when it wont) doesnt mean the coach should get a pass.

There is a saying, that I doubt you are familiar with or will understand:
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Even if your dark assessment were true, it doesn't change the fact that your comments, blaming Rumsfeld, aren't meaningful. If you were suggesting who might be better than Rumsfeld and why, or advancing your own beliefs on how things should move forward..it would be interesting. But your comments lack solutions and thus amount to little more than screaming "The coach sucks!" from the stands.

I think you mistakenly believe you are scoring some sort of cheap political points by doing so, but you are just annoying the other readers.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 15:43 Comments || Top||

#56  Phil Fraering -
Lex, you mentioned Lincoln's two secretaries of war

actually, I made an anology to a cricket match that no one seemed to find clever or germane. :-

But you're absolutely right that the Civil War was the ultimate botch job, at least til late 1863. In any case, the deciding factor was ultimately Lincoln's willingness to stick with the "drunken butcher" whose determination to exploit his numerical advantage-- ie send many tens of thousands of Union troops to their deaths, again and again-- allowed him to triumph in the western campaigns and turn the tide of what until then was a complete disaster.

Get a little perspective, LH. Rummy's done an OK job overall. Axing him would make the NYT editors happy and do f***-all to help us crush the ba'athist deadenders at this point.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:48 Comments || Top||

#57  But your comments lack solutions and thus amount to little more than screaming "The coach sucks!"

Oh c'mon. Then we should never criticize anybody because for all intents and purposes we can never propose meaningful solutions with the information we have, or better yet, the information we don't have. We are simply judging results. And if they suck, well, we can surely admit that they suck, can't we?
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 15:52 Comments || Top||

#58  haha. LH.. glad to dump Rummy in exchange for the pres himself, are we??

Do you just not care how tranparent your political cheap shots are, or do you really believe that you accomplishing something?
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 15:54 Comments || Top||

#59  Rafael..no, fire away. I think criticism is a good thing. But..

we have a war going on and good men are dying to keep us safe here at home. I just think it is shameful to use the war as a tool to advance personal politics.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 16:07 Comments || Top||

#60  the prez himself - honestly, i saw the thing on WS, and was impressed by it. the dig at the prez was only a side benefit. The point remains unanswered of course.

it is shameful to use the war as a tool to advance personal politics

2004 victory

Its not shameful to hold political leaders accountable for the results of their policies. Thats democracy. If Bush succeeds I will give credit where it is due. If not, not. AS lex says, things are mixed. Maybe, net - net Rummy is good. Maybe screwing up Iraq will mean less in the long run than winning in Afghanistan. Maybe the consequences of scaring the bejeezus out of everyone (the turning of Libya, the discovery of the AQ Khan network) etc will prove more important than having 130,000 plus US troops tied up in Iraq for months or years longer than was necessary. Maybe reforming the Pentagon and the military into something leaner and meaner will be worth an Iraq thats less of a model than it might have been - honest folks, we wont know that this year. We may not know it this decade.


But the attitude that forbids any acknowledgement of whats wrong to the point that folks can blame the current state of Iraq (blame culture, anyone?) on the lack of sufficient Shia vigilantism, is well .....
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 16:24 Comments || Top||

#61  I have a broader concern.

I think it will take a generation, say 25 years, to bring stability to the Muslim world. Both the insurgency in Iraq and Islamacist jihadis are something we need to deal with, but they themselves are not necessarily aware of all of the forces shaping their actions nor are they in control of them. Things like the possibly predictable but maybe not actions of a Sistani ... all of these are in play in Iraq. So are larger forces yet, including oil, weather, the election here in the US, our success so far in intercepting attempted attacks on US and UK soil since 9/11.

To put it in the jargon of my academic research, movements like the insurgency and political events in Iraq are "complex adaptive systems". Short form: the behaviors we see are due to many many interactions and decisions by many players at the local level. In CAS it is very difficult to predict the system-level behaviors even if you know the tendencies of each of the players.

There ARE techniques for modeling CAS and they are being used to good effect wrt the insurgency now that we have some data to work with. Those models helped capture Saddam and shaped the Fallujah offensive. but they are not a panacea either.

My perspective is that Rumsfeld has the bigger picture right on some key ideas. First, the transformation of our military along multiple lines (technology, unit rotation, the rise of Special Ops, an increased emphasis during training on cultural and language skills). Second, that too large a US presence in Iraq will inevitably have the effect of removing from the Iraqis responsiblity and incentives for creating a representative government and stable country for themselves. And third, that a confrontation such as the one going on in Iraq right now is both inevitable and also a very delicate balancing act, given the larger desire to maintain an effective power base in Iraq and Afghanistan for some time to come.

Finding the right level of involvement would IMO be very difficult even not taking into account the hostile actions of e.g. the insurgents, not to mention neighbors like Syria and Iran.

For that reason, it's important to consider what a Plan might or might not entail. For instance, those who criticize Rumsfeld for not sending more troops at the start are conspicuously silent re: the geopolitical impacts and perverse incentives involved if we just pulled troops overnight from places like Germany and So. Korea for that purpose.

I tend to cut Rumsfeld a fair amount of slack, as I do Bush, because I believe that a) their overal assessments of the threats we face are accurate and b) their general strategies are right. There will be mistakes at the more tactical level but those must be put into perspective.

And here's why that's so important to do: we *will* be facing these sorts of amorphous, difficult conflicts (whether shooting or otherwise) for a couple of decades. We had better get good at rewarding leaders who get the main things right, or we will find ourselves electing leaders who do all the wrong things flawlessly.
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 16:35 Comments || Top||

#62  honestly, i saw the thing on WS, and was impressed by it. the dig at the prez was only a side benefit.

lol!

Well to be honest, I'm glad you found that quote too. Cause now that you have a better quote, that directly blames the president, I guess we can all stop trying to this silly game of trying to pull down Rumsfeld's pants in order to embare-ass the president.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 16:41 Comments || Top||

#63  We had better get good at rewarding leaders who get the main things right, or we will find ourselves electing leaders who do all the wrong things flawlessly.

rkb...very well said! All of it. And on that fine note, I must say goodbye.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#64  2b - im glad you think you can read my mind. I dont want the president to be embarassed, i want him to succeed. Especially in the WOT, which i see as a life and death matter.

RKB - if there had been more US troops, the Iraqis would have gotten lazy and not built their own force? The welfare reform approach to force sizing? Dont make em dependent. But if their had been a smaller insurgency they could have also gotten lazy. So the insurgency was a GOOD thing, in that it meant that the Iraqis have to build their own force? Oh, but wait, for the first few months, when we needed more US forces, there WAS no iraqi force, or at least no effective one. Were only getting an effective Iraqi force NOW. And its completely dependent on the US for training and development (Well, were finally getting some Nato help, I suppose). Sorry this makes no sense. The welfare reform argument may have made sense in Afghanistan, where there WAS a local fighting force, which might have sat on its hands if there were too many US troops. But not Iraq, where the only local force was the peshmerga, which we have not used effectively until the last couple of months.

As for there not being troops available in april 2003 - well I would suggest that given that the WOT started on Sept 2001, Rummy had plenty of time to increase force size. In fact the Army was asking for larger forces from the beginning of the admin.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 16:53 Comments || Top||

#65  rkb, excellent comment. I concur on the key points, and furthermore strenuously agree that they ARE the key points.

My comment on vigilantism possibly having some benefit was merely a common sense observation that if some non-Sunnis were spontaneously doing some of the harvesting/intimidation of the bad guys, we'd have less to do and probably have fewer losses. Of course I wasn't suggesting such actions had been part of any plan, or that the lack of major score-settling explained the state of affairs.

LH, you've completely lost me with your last comment, yet I suspect I'm not the one who's lost. rkb's point about dependency is a very salient one in Iraq, as anyone who's followed things knows. Your focus on numbers of troops suggests you're not serious about this discussion, since there were obviously far more troops than needed at the outset, and probably still are today. The challenge is what to do with the troops, not whether you have a few more or less.

I mourn and am enraged at the losses we and friendly Iraqis are taking, yet I understand that things are going pretty well. The "insurgency" has no program and no chance, about 95% of the nightmare scenarios never developed, and we have a leadership that is both smart and tough enough to persevere in what is clearly a winning strategy.
Posted by: Verlaine || 12/14/2004 17:04 Comments || Top||

#66  In CAS it is very difficult to predict the system-level behaviors even if you know the tendencies of each of the players

What rkb said. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that anyone could have grasped all the factors, contingencies, unintended consequences etc of this war. Rumsfeld's done a remarkable job in many areas-- remember all the howling lsat March re Rumsfeld's insistence on a lightning strike, relatively lightly armed strategy? and a so-so job in other areas. Perhaps more troops would have helped, but I seriously doubt it. It's a long tough slog regardless of the path taken and it's wishful thinking to presume otherwise.

I'm beginning to think that keeping Rumsfeld on as a whipping boy for the anti-Bush brigades is yet one more example of Bush's supreme political cunning. Keep 'em distracted. Let 'em vent. Keep 'em away from any substantive policy matters where they might come up with a valid, well thought-out alternative.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:08 Comments || Top||

#67  LH: the dig at the prez was only a side benefit.
v/s
LHI dont want the president to be embarassed, i want him to succeed
Posted by: anon || 12/14/2004 17:17 Comments || Top||

#68  In CAS it is very difficult to predict the system-level behaviors even if you know the tendencies of each of the players.

That's why we need a new generation of gunships.

Whoopsssie... Nevermind. Not that kinda CAS.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 17:17 Comments || Top||

#69  One of the first few comments on this thread expressed disappointment at the lack of vigilante action. (I have not read all of the comments yet). However, let me assure you that personal scores ARE being settled. I would not be surprised to see another 1000 or more Saddamites exterminated in 2005.
Posted by: leaddog2 || 12/14/2004 17:39 Comments || Top||

#70 
#50 what standard? The insurgency, in mid 2003, is said to have numbered about 5000 men, and was under pressure as we rounded up Baathists. I expected that it would DECLINE from there, and that by now Iraq would be quiet. That wed be well into physical reconstruction, and that there would be zero cities where contractors couldnt go. Failing that, that at least the insurgency would be no worse than it was in summer 2003

Based on what's happened since, and what information has come out about the pre-war planning and external support for the terrorists, that's not a reasonable expectation. Remember, the enemy gets to make their input into how things turn out.


Rantburg has an archive. Point me to where in 2003 you said that things would still be like this 20 months after the invasion.

I can't. Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. I don't even understand why you'd make such a demand. I may have said I thought it would be better, but so what? I've never claimed to be prescient.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 17:51 Comments || Top||

#71  I hear a few soldiers sharted their pants in the field, and didn't have extras. Rumsfeld should be held personally responsible, or something, and all of his undies should be confiscated.

Yeah, right LH, that's exactly what we need. Ultimate accountability and infallibility. Gotta be perfect, don't they?
Posted by: Asedwich || 12/14/2004 22:54 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Iran May Negotiate With U.S. Over Nukes
Iran is willing to talk with the United States about a nuclear program that Washington alleges is aimed at secretly acquiring the bomb, Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi said Monday. Germany, Britain and France launched new negotiations with Iran on Monday to try to persuade Tehran to abandon any nuclear program that could be used for weapons, in return for aid to build up its civilian energy program. Kharrazi told a news conference that talks with Washington could also be possible. The United States broke diplomatic relations with Iran after militant students seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran in 1979. "If negotiations are on the basis of equality and mutual respect in the same way we are talking to Europeans now, there is no reason not to talk to others," Kharrazi said when asked whether Tehran was also willing to talk to the United States about its nuclear program.

Iran's reformers support dialogue with Washington but hard-liners are opposed to any rapprochement, arguing that the only U.S. goal is to bring about the collapse of the ruling Islamic establishment. Some Europeans have hoped America's possible engagement in talks with Iran would increase pressure on Tehran to permanently abandon any weapons program and reassure its rulers that Washington was not seeking their overthrow. Kharrazi, addressing the news conference with his South African counterpart, Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma, said Iran will assess the talks with European countries within three months if new negotiations do not meet Iran's demand to use its nuclear program for domestic energy purposes. "If we see that talks are waste of time and have no results, definitely we will make our own decisions," he said.

Kharrazi described the talks as "very serious" and dismissed allegations that Tehran was stalling, insisting that Iran had "no interest in wasting time." Iran agreed to a temporary deal with the Europeans last month to suspend uranium enrichment but has insisted that the freeze is voluntary and short. Zuma, whose country is an influential member of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, said South Africa defends "Iran's right for peaceful use of nuclear technology," but was opposed to a weapons program.
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 9:46:44 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [18 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Just stalling for time to build the bomb.
Posted by: Wo || 12/14/2004 9:56 Comments || Top||

#2  "Iran May Negotiate With U.S. Over Nukes"

ROFLMAO!!!

No, son, we won't be talking this to death with you. You don't need the tech for any peaceful purpose, you have no "right" to nukies, and you're just too phreakin' insane to be allowed to sit at the big table. Q.E.D.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||

#3  Ladies and Gentleman,
Allow me to refresh your memmory with the immortal quote from "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" :
" When you have to Shoot, Shoot, Don't Talk"
Posted by: Clint Eastwood || 12/14/2004 10:06 Comments || Top||

#4  Talk to the JDAMs, freaks.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 12/14/2004 10:15 Comments || Top||

#5  The Chinese are about to build literally hundreds of "pebble bed" nuclear reactors that cannot be used in any way to make nuclear weapons. We should loudly announce that if Iran 1) opens all of its facilities to unannounced IAEA inspections, including sites that are suspected of being used for such activities, then 2) it can have all the pebble bed reactors it wants to meet its energy needs. Otherwise, ultimatum time.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 10:48 Comments || Top||

#6  Iran: "Let's talk about our nuclear program."
Bush: "Okay. Drop it or we'll take it out."
Done.
Shouldn't take more than one minute even allowing for translations.
Posted by: Tom || 12/14/2004 11:55 Comments || Top||

#7  " Some Europeans have hoped America’s possible engagement in talks with Iran would increase pressure on Tehran to permanently abandon any weapons program and reassure its rulers that Washington was not seeking their overthrow "

Is this not familar ?? EU relies on the the good ole USA to take care of all the messes then turn around and stick a knife in our back. Are the Russians interested ?? Oh yeah they are probably busy helping the Iranians build the program.
Posted by: tex || 12/14/2004 12:39 Comments || Top||

#8  Eu is hoping for another oil for food boondoggle so those that missed out the first time can get rich on this one.

This is a good opportunity for the US to buddy up with China and suggest that China can be the source of the pebble reactors (Anonymoose's info is correct). This would provide prestige and cash payments for China so they might go along. It would also force the Iranians to fish or cut bait.
Posted by: RJ Schwarz || 12/14/2004 14:25 Comments || Top||

#9  "If negotiations are on the basis of equality and mutual respect in the same way we are talking to Europeans now, there is no reason not to talk to others"

Wait a sec. According to the MSM the EU Three are presenting a united front with us. Why then is it necessary to hold separate, additional talks with the US?

Do you mean to say the EU Dwarves aren't representing our interests here? Perhaps they're n- n- n- not on our side?
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 14:36 Comments || Top||

#10  devils advocate.

Mr EU3 to Iran: Im on your side, let me help you, I dont want my colleague outside to come and do anything rash - Ill make you a really generous offer.
Iran to EU3 : I aint talking
MR EU3 to US: Well, im going out for some coffee and doughnuts, time for you to talk to him, Joe.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 16:33 Comments || Top||

#11  LH-ABSOLUTELY NOT. America needs to stop volunteering for a black eye-as the policeman, the cowboy (ring a bell?)-every time the world whimpers for help, while Europe reclines on a featherbed of insouciance, being the self-appointed foreign policy 'genius' of the international community. Sharing costs and burdens is not limited to tangibles. I'm with tex.
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 16:49 Comments || Top||

#12  I prefer Uncle Sam sitting down to the table with the big Mullah, the Bear, the Bulldawg and Mr H. Bomb. Have a sandwich and play a round of cards. John Q. Public can watch from the kitchen.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 19:39 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Iraq says aide to Zarqawi killed, two arrested
BAGHDAD (AFP) - An aide to Iraq's most-wanted man, Jordanian Islamist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has been killed in Iraq and two others captured, Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said. "I have been told that an individual by the name of Hassan Ibrahim Farhan Zyda from Zarqawi's group has been killed and that two of his deputies have been arrested," Allawi told the interim national assembly. The two detainees were suspected to have "beheaded innocents," he added, in a possible reference to the murders of hostages that have been claimed by Zarqawi's Al-Qaeda linked group.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 9:43:26 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [17 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wow. With all the aides he's had, the red tape must of been horrific. We've certainly killed or captured a bunch. Kind of like a boy in every port.
Posted by: plainslow || 12/14/2004 11:23 Comments || Top||

#2  I'd settle for al-zarqawi with terminal aids.
Posted by: anymouse || 12/14/2004 12:57 Comments || Top||

#3  Did he ever visit Yasser?
Posted by: eLarson || 12/14/2004 16:22 Comments || Top||

#4  I guess being an aide to Zarqawi is like being one of the red-shirted security men in the original Star Trek series.
Posted by: Dreadnought || 12/14/2004 16:59 Comments || Top||

#5  Endgame now.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:10 Comments || Top||

#6  The Hassan Ibrahim Zyda Link leads to a page with only a Title. Is there more information? This sounds great!
Posted by: leaddog2 || 12/14/2004 18:17 Comments || Top||

#7  Leaddog, please don't bold everything. It makes your posts very hard to read. Harder still to take seriously, if you don't think your words will stand on their own, 'k?
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 20:55 Comments || Top||

#8  Hopefully, the Iraquis will be able to obtain useful information out of the two captures on the whereabouts of Zarquawi. Hope the endgame is near as lex says.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 12/14/2004 22:52 Comments || Top||


Europe
Spanish Police Arrest Four Suspected of Links to Terror
Police investigating radical Islamic cells in Spain arrested three Algerians and a Moroccan on Tuesday. The four men were detained in the northern cities of Victoria and Teruel and in Madrid, said a national police spokesman, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The Moroccan, Khalid Zeimi Pardo, 27, is suspected of ties to Moroccan fugitive Amer el Azizi, who is wanted in connection with the Madrid terror bombings and the Sept. 11 terror attacks in the United States, the spokesman said. Zeimi Pardo also had contact with the alleged mastermind of the Madrid attacks, a Tunisian named Serhane Ben Abdelmajid Fakhet and others charged with terrorism in Spain, police say. He was also detained in April but freed after five days due to insufficient evidence.
Looks like they found some.
Authorities believe Azizi was a middleman between Spanish cells of mainly North African immigrants and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terror network. Seventeen people, mostly Moroccans, are jailed in Spain on provisional charges over the Madrid train bombings, which are blamed on Islamist militants with possible links to al-Qaida. The bombings killed 191 people and injured more than 1,800. The arrests of the three Algerians, identified as Abdelkader Lebik, Abdallah Ibn Moutalib Kaddouri and Brahim Amman, are part of a police investigation into an Islamic cell that allegedly plotted to blow up the court overseeing Spain's anti-terror investigations, the spokesman said. Thirty-three people, Moroccans and Algerians, have been provisionally charged and jailed since late October in the alleged plot to slam a truck carrying 1,100 pounds of explosives into Madrid's National Court.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 9:34:20 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:


Israel-Palestine
Abbas calls for end of armed uprising
The armed uprising against Israel is a mistake and must end, interim Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said in an interview published Tuesday, signaling his determination to change direction after Yasser Arafat's death. In an interview with the London-based Arabic newspaper Asharq al-Awsat published Tuesday, Abbas said Palestinians should resist Israeli occupation without resorting to violence. It is important to "keep the uprising away from arms because the uprising is a legitimate right of the people to express their rejection of the occupation by popular and social means," Abbas said. "Using the weapons was harmful and has got to stop," Abbas said. He [also] said that currently Palestinian security is in a state of chaos. "Frankly, the Palestinian (security) apparatus needs discipline. There is security chaos, that's why were demanding and are seeking to unify the security apparatus," Abbas told Asharq al-Awsat. Abbas also said he was in talks with the militant Islamic groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to bring them into the framework of the PLO, an umbrella group for Palestinian parties.
Good luck, Mahmoud. You'll need it.
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 9:25:01 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [25 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The armed uprising against Israel is a mistake and must end, interim Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said in an interview published Tuesday

1...2...3.... FATWAH (TM)

The Guy's life expectancy just went infinitesimal
Trust the Hamas and the Hizbies not to miss the opportunity.
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:53 Comments || Top||

#2  like herding angry psychotic cats
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 9:55 Comments || Top||

#3  Frankly, the Palestinian (security) apparatus needs discipline

Wrong Mahmud, what they really need is to be lined up and shot in the head.

To refer to a gang of rabid armed terrorists as a "security apparatus" is a typical Palestinian
propaganda item.
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||

#4  It is important to "keep the uprising away from arms because the uprising is a legitimate right of the people to express their rejection of the occupation by popular and social means," Abbas said.

Not going to happen.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#5  herding angry psychotic cats

or trying to reason with a swarm of killer bees.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:20 Comments || Top||

#6  Comon - everyone knows even psychotic cats are cleaner...
Posted by: M. Murcek || 12/14/2004 12:22 Comments || Top||

#7  I wonder if he said this in Arabic or only English. Actually, I don't wonder at all.
Posted by: Remoteman || 12/14/2004 12:52 Comments || Top||

#8  Here's the bar, Abbas: When you can pick up the phone and order one Pal security apparatus to follow orders from a civilian and democratically-elected cabinet, like Sharon can, then all will be possible. At least he understands the problem. How much of a leader he will be to implement the changes necessary is the $64 question.
Posted by: chicago mike || 12/14/2004 12:55 Comments || Top||

#9  Next Abbas'll say his grandmother is a virgin.
Posted by: Wo || 12/14/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
China Builds Invasion Fleet
China is apparently building a large quantity of amphibious shipping. Two LSDs (Landing Ship Dock) are being built in large covered sheds. They appear to be about 25,000 tons each and carry four LCAC (high speed landing craft) and four helicopters each. China is building 4-5 LSTs (Landing Ship Tank) a year. These are over 2,000 tons displacement each. A larger number of LSMs (smaller than LSTs, but in this case almost as large as World War II LSTs) are also under construction. China won't say what the eventual size of this amphibious fleet will be, but Taiwan suspects enough to land two or more divisions on Taiwanese beaches. That could take another 3-4 years. Meanwhile, Chinese shipyards are also turning out submarines and surface warships. China will be able to make a serious move on Taiwan before 2010.
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 9:10:10 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  China will be able to make a serious move on Taiwan before 2010.

More like China will be able to present lots of targets to submarines and antiship missles of various nations. Let me know how their EW, ECW, ECCW are coming and I'll be a bit more perturbed. (And the capture of the P-3 did perturb me.)
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 9:43 Comments || Top||

#2  No shit Mrs D. The days of the massive amphibious assault passed, oh about 50 years ago. The only thing this fleet will accomplish will be a LOT of dead Chinese soldiers. When will China realize that it can't reclaim Taiwan by force? China could destroy Taiwan, but not reclaim it.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 12/14/2004 10:31 Comments || Top||

#3  Nope. China is going to swap NorK nukes for a pass on Taiwan. Meaning they force a capitulation by the norks, and we just happen to be out of position to do much to help Taiwan when they do attack. Clean and allows everyone to save face.

But it will have to wait 4 more years, as the Chicoms hope for someone a little more interested in doing business.
Posted by: Jimbo19 || 12/14/2004 10:37 Comments || Top||

#4  Well, now we know why there was a steel shortage.
Posted by: anonymous2u || 12/14/2004 10:40 Comments || Top||

#5  I agree that the days of the "massive amphibious assault" have passed (except for the Marines, of course!). I think this invasion fleet is to be used to bring the OCCUPATION force across. There'll be some amphib action, but the main battle will air based, including massive bombing and air assault troops. If it comes to that. There's a lot of pragmatism in Taiwan these days.
Posted by: Justrand || 12/14/2004 10:43 Comments || Top||

#6  Jimbo - The NorKs are going nowhere and accomplishing nothing - there's no value to any quid pro quo.

China has already killed the Golden Goose, Hong Kong, to a great extent (check productivity numbers, if you can squeeze anything honest out of the ChiComs) and serving up Taiwan is and would be nuts.

You have a hell of a point about some future admin - a Prez Hillary would prolly flip that chip on the table without hesitation... but by the time that could happen, the NorKies will have imploded, I hope.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:48 Comments || Top||

#7  might work when each helo carries 25,000 Chicom troops
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:53 Comments || Top||

#8  Makes no sense. Taiwan is a small island, more completely dependent on trade than Britain ever was. China either gets command of the sea and air or they dont. If they DONT, this means a lot of drowned Chicom soldiers, as Mrs D says. If they DO, then they can beat Taiwan by blockade, and dont need an amphibiuous landing.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 11:00 Comments || Top||

#9  If the Prez is Hillary or some other social engineering True Believer who would trade millions of other people's lives for a penny's worth of peace, yes, indeed.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:02 Comments || Top||

#10  Isn't this kind of thing what daisy cutters are for?

LH, the communists tried blockading Berlin, which didn't work all that well as I recall. I don't think the odds are good for Sen. Rodham's presidency hopes -- the electorate has been voting more Republican with each election, and the youngsters whose outlook was formed by 9/11 will be voting in four years, so I suspect the trend will accelerate.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 12:12 Comments || Top||

#11  Taiwan aint berlin. All we did there was to feed one city, from about a hundred miles away. A city whose economy was already largely dependent on financing from west germany.

Taiwan is an entire society. Youd have to feed 20 million or so, with the nearest friendly base in the Phillipines, several hundred miles away. and the Chinese would be shooting at the planes coming in, as the Russians were not. And feeding them isnt enough. No shipping, no Taiwan economy.

And of course this is a discussion of HOW the chinese would attack Taiwan, not of US policy. US armed intervention would make a Chicom blockade very difficult - but even more so for a landing. Economic retaliation by the US would also make it costly to PRC - again, that applies as much to a landing as a blockade.

All Im saying, is that there are NO circumstances that make an invasion worthwile, that dont make a blockade MORE worthwhile.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 12:21 Comments || Top||

#12  If they DO, then they can beat Taiwan by blockade, and dont need an amphibiuous landing.

There are quite a few OH Perry class frigates in storge, just right for convoy duty. Taiwan is much smaller than then UK and the PLAN is not the equal to the German sub fleet of WWII.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 13:56 Comments || Top||

#13  I can't argue with LH that in the long run a blockade is easier than an actual invasion, but I don't think a long-run scenario is likely.

The US (unless we get [shudder] President Dean) would not allow a blockade to continue and our Navy is More Than Thick and Rich Enough to break it.

OTOP, an assault only needs control for a short period of time. If they can seize a good hunk of the island by a coup de main, and present us with a fait accompli before we can react, they might think they can get away with it. I think they are misunderestimating us, but who knows?
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 14:20 Comments || Top||

#14  Just the notion that the ChiComs could maintain a blockade in a shooting war with the USN is a giggle. How long is it taking them to assemble this WW-II force? I'd give it 24 hrs, tops, if it dared to come out of port and the US decided to sink the bitch.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:29 Comments || Top||

#15  good point Jackal, but its not enough to land on the island, and hold chunk. Theyve got to supply the landed force. For the long term. The same naval and air forces that could resist a blockade, can interfere with landing, and resupply of a landed force. I think we are here seriously underestimating the difficulty of amphibious operations. There havent been a lot of successful opposed amphibious landings in modern history - and scarcely any major ones that the US wasnt leading. You cant just land a few troops and slowly build up (as the Wehrmacht pointed out to Hitler and the Kriegsmarine in 1940) not with the defender throwing everything hes got against your beachhead. You have to land sufficient forces to hold off the counter attack, AND you have to keep them supplied, over the beach, under air attack (unless you have complete air superiority), while your shipping is underattack.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:30 Comments || Top||

#16  The army of Taiwan consist of 12 infantry division, and six armor brigades, not counting reserves. AFAIK these are of quality and training that equals or exceeds the Chicoms. Its hard to see how the Chicoms could hold a bridgehead with less than say, 4 or 5 divisions. A two division force, as suggested in the article would be mincemeat, unless China has full control over the air. IF they could have full control over the air, they could destroy Taiwans commerce easily, frigates or no.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:37 Comments || Top||

#17  What if you had special forces in place on Taiwan coming out of hiding and securing a landing beach? The PLA and the PRC intelligence agencies have got to have a good number of agents in place for just such an operation. Don't know how you solve the resupply problem -- maybe seize a bunch of Taiwanese merchantmen and run them back and forth until the USN sinks them all or gives up.

(Jackal: does OTOP = on the other paw?)
Posted by: Jonathan || 12/14/2004 14:37 Comments || Top||

#18  Just the notion that the ChiComs could maintain a blockade in a shooting war with the USN is a giggle. How long is it taking them to assemble this WW-II force? I'd give it 24 hrs, tops, if it dared to come out of port and the US decided to sink the bitch.

they wouldnt blockade with surface ships or subs. This aint 1940 (and even then, the Luftwaffe played a large role in the attempt to blockade Britain). Theyd do it with aircraft and missiles. Wed try to hit their air and missile based with cruise missiles. Thats why the chicoms are so interested in tech to use against cruise missiles.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:39 Comments || Top||

#19  A trio of Seawolf Subs would easily make anything except air assault impossible - and one carrier would easily negate that option. This is getting silly - unless we're talking about some Dhimmidonk Prez calling the shots from Fortress America, or the alternative, Paris.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:41 Comments || Top||

#20  how would one carrier prevent the Chicoms from firing missile at Taiwan ports, and attacking merchies headed into or out from Taiwan with missiles and aircraft? One carrier has what, 120 aircraft? At most half fighters? Who have to run CAP over the carrier, and also protect all Taiwan commerce within air range of China? And supplement Taiwans own fighter defence over its ports?
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#21  And, in response to your last, their aircraft wouldn't survive an encounter with US aircraft - it would have to be missiles. Do you think any launching system they have could withstand the counter-battery / HARM cover? Since there are now loitering HARM systems in the US inventory, I think they'd get one shot per site. Would they hit anything after the first couple were waxed? Could they hit anything with the prefect first shot? I'll bet our intel knows the answer, but I admit I don't.

The only option in which the Chinese succeed is for the US to take a hike.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:45 Comments || Top||

#22  Make that your previous to last. You type so fast, Lh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:47 Comments || Top||

#23  Just to be real, the show stopper for the PLAN could be an infestation of modern mines. I don't think they've invested much in mine hunters. It's not near as sexy as mime hunting or meme thrashing.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#24  I think the key is something you said, Lh:
"It ain't 1940."

Indeed. And that does not favor the ChiComs.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:59 Comments || Top||

#25  Mine the Chinese ports and mine the beaches they plan on landing at (and if possible deploy some mines on the sea routes they're using). Its a quick response and its very effective.
Posted by: Valentine || 12/14/2004 15:42 Comments || Top||

#26  You have a hell of a point about some future admin - a Prez Hillary would prolly flip that chip on the table without hesitation

Is Marc Rich's firm lining up deals in China these days?
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:51 Comments || Top||

#27  Jonathan: What if you had special forces in place on Taiwan coming out of hiding and securing a landing beach? The PLA and the PRC intelligence agencies have got to have a good number of agents in place for just such an operation.

Commandos cannot hold territory. They are good for quick in-and-out operations before their opponent figures out where they are, but that's it. They simply don't have enough firepower to prevail against conventional forces. All their opponent has to do is locate them (pretty obvious, since they're defending landing sites) and then pulverize their locations with artillery. Commandos can be useful for other things, such as assassinating Taiwanese leaders, attacking airfields, radar stations, supply depots and the like and carrying out ambushes along key supply routes. But all of these would essentially be suicide missions, which brings up the question of how motivated Chinese troops would be, and whether some of them would surrender and confess all before the invasion was due. The sleeper commando idea sounds good, but is too dangerous to prepare on the scale (tens of thousands) necessary for it to be effective.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 12/14/2004 16:05 Comments || Top||

#28  Taiwan is a significant supplier to the US electronics industry. China would not be allowed to blockade Taiwan and in the process shut down us factories for lack of parts. The US could do without the cheap consumer goods a lot more than China could do without the US market. Further, unless the Democratic party stages a comeback, I do believe the US Navy would enforce one of the US government's longest and most strongly held foreign policy positions, unrestricted maritime commerce. We have gone to war once and fought numerous lesser actions to keep the sealanes open.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 17:43 Comments || Top||

#29  Freedom of the Seas - has a nice ring to it
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:45 Comments || Top||

#30  Don't forget to destroy those chinese dams; and consider the advantages of detonating neutron bombs in the straits where there are no buildings, but alot of apprehension!
Posted by: smn || 12/14/2004 20:39 Comments || Top||

#31  smn - IIUC we abandoned the Neutron production due to President Carter's *SPIT* personal dislike for their strategic applications
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 20:44 Comments || Top||

#32  Well we know how well the last invasion fleet China launched went.

I thought the recent election put the pro mainland party in control of the legislature?
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 20:51 Comments || Top||


Europe
Dutch consider infant euthanasia
Doctors in the Netherlands are calling for new laws allowing them to end the lives of newborn babies with intolerable and incurable illnesses. The appeal for a committee of experts to be set up to consider the issue has been signed by doctors from the country's eight university hospitals.
"Doctor Mengele, call your office"
The Dutch government will give its opinion over the next few months. The Netherlands became the first country in the world to legalise euthanasia in 2002. The proposed committee of experts would define the specific criteria that would apply to this type of infant euthanasia. The protocol would relate to only about 600 infants in the world - and between 10 and 15 in The Netherlands. These children are born with extreme malformations. For instance they may have no brain. The move has revived the debate on the controversial issue of euthanasia. One university hospital has already drawn up a document setting out the circumstances in which euthanasia of newborn babies could be justified. The text has been strongly criticised by the Vatican. In the Netherlands, euthanasia can be given to people over 16, and to those over 12 in exceptional cases.
I believe they tried this program once before in Europe, back in the 1940's. It ended rather badly.
Doctors here say paediatricians worldwide are in favour of ending the lives of newborns in certain circumstances.
Really?
In France, 74% believe it should be acceptable, and in the Netherlands 72%.
You will note they don't mention the wishes of the parents anywhere in this story.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 8:59:38 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Glad to see this disease has spread to Phrawnce. Any thing we can do to expand the category to include the infantile as well as infants? That would take care of most of the Phrawnche government.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 9:47 Comments || Top||

#2  If Dr. Harold Shipman had known this was coming would he have left for Holland?

How would the government decide if a child is worth anything or not? And it looks like a question of when, not if, the Dutch government declare dissent a crippling disease.
Posted by: Korora || 12/14/2004 10:35 Comments || Top||

#3  obviously the children of dissenters are carriers, and must be snuffed out - body parts harvested
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#4  What if the parents' don't want to pull the plug on the kid....is there an exception for that?
(Serious question, guys.....don't post a snarky answer in return please. I really want to know the answer to this.)
If it is without or overrides parental consent, that is deeply troubling.
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 10:52 Comments || Top||

#5  DB - under this Groningen Protocol, I think the parents are secondary to the state's interests. They may not even be told the death was intentional
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:59 Comments || Top||

#6  And I believe part of the "rationale" of setting up committees to make the decision is to avoid any unnecessary emotional involvement.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 11:05 Comments || Top||

#7  Hugh Hewitt has been all over this story. Here is one of his pieces:
A parent's role is limited under the protocol. While experts and critics familiar with the policy said a parent's wishes to let a child live or die naturally most likely would be considered, they note that the decision must be professional, so rests with doctors.

Doctor knows best.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 11:12 Comments || Top||

#8  Monstrous. Doctor-priests allowed to decide without parental consent. No wonder they give it such a spooky horror-novel title (The Groningen Protocol). Shitheads.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:41 Comments || Top||

#9  This is truly horrifying. I don't get it....they (Europe) keep on criticizing us for the death penalty, and then they turn around and do this?
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 14:59 Comments || Top||

#10  We debated this a week ago. And I'll re-iterate the same point I made them - resources are finite and you have to choose who to save. Rationally you would choose to devote your resources to saving those most likely to contribute to society (and consequently allow you to save more in the future). This problem arises in Europe because of the socialized medecine and the resultant perception that people have a 'right' to unlimited healthcare. I don't doubt they have the same problem we have in Australia where the media regularly features cute kids who have consumed huge amounts of healthcare funding and will die before they are 20 years old. The message doesn't vary - isn't this wonderful. Well its not. It's a tragic waste of the teen suicides, vehicle accident deaths, savable junkies, and many others who could be helped with the money spent (end of rant).
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 15:22 Comments || Top||

#11  If your main concern's with cost-benefit, or perhaps cost-vs-years of useful life, then you'd get many more times the social benefit if you were to eliminate life-extending, hugely expensive technology-driven regimens that do not cure the elderly, rather, postpone the onset of death by a few months.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:38 Comments || Top||

#12  lex, I agree with you. However, dying old people don't look good on TV. Dying kids do.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 16:08 Comments || Top||

#13  you'd get many more times the social benefit if you were to eliminate life-extending, hugely expensive technology-driven regimens that do not cure the elderly, rather, postpone the onset of death by a few months
Under socialized medicine, medical intervention for the elderly has been eliminated long time ago. After age 70, if the patient needs something more than what Tylenol will cure, it's buns up.

Monstrous. Doctor-priests allowed to decide without parental consent
Under socialized medicine controls, doctors take their marching orders from government bureaucrats. So it's the suits who are the monsters, not the doctors. In socialized medicine, doctors have little power. In fact if doctors implement too many procedures to save or extend lives of very sick patients, doctors get penalized. Very likely doctors are going along with the euthanasia idea in Holland because it saves them being hassled/questioned by the government backseatdriver suits for pursuing the various costly procedures that would be certainly required to keep patients like the ones described in the article alive. Furthermore, with regards to Dutch doctors specifically, I'm not sure what kind of "quality" physicians are graduating from Dutch medical schools. Up until 1999, selection of med school students was done entirely by lottery. After 1999, med schools were allowed to select 50% of their med school students but very few schools exercised this right except to select for minority status or for another PC reason like mature student staus. So there you have it, when med schools stop selecting for smarts, then maybe it's easier to have physicians go along with the gov't program, if you are not dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer to begin with.
http://www.studentbmj.com/back_issues/0503/news/138a.html
Dutch medical schools abandon selection for lottery system for places














Posted by: Angash Flinelet3775 || 12/14/2004 16:47 Comments || Top||

#14  Up until 1999, selection of med school students was done entirely by lottery. After 1999, med schools were allowed to select 50% of their med school students

WTF??? Remind me never to get sick in Holland.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:23 Comments || Top||

#15  In these PC times, this kind of data is no longer collected, but when I went to Uni, amoungst undergraduates, Science students had the highest IQs, and Medicine and Social Science students the lowest IQs (UK data). Not really surprising or undesireable as thorough and systematic, not brilliant or imaginative, is what you would want in a doctor.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 18:38 Comments || Top||

#16  Dr. Mengele's out today, I can call Dr. Kavorkian. How about Dr. Lecter?
Posted by: Sgt.D.T. || 12/14/2004 19:05 Comments || Top||

#17  Lol, Sgt! Luck of the draw?

Wow - whatever happened to "Do no harm."? Dr Steve's gotta be doing some major eye rolls and wincing...
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 19:09 Comments || Top||

#18  Science students had the highest IQs, and Medicine and Social Science students the lowest IQs (UK data). Not really surprising or undesireable as thorough and systematic, not brilliant or imaginative, is what you would want in a doctor.
I am not sure how old you are, because your age could determine your impression of what IQ med students possess in the UK. It is my understanding that Tony Blair has been implementing social engineering with education with great gusto, so perhaps standards for med school have nose dived under his reign of politically correct terror.

However,psychological studies consistently show that in the USA, physicians and professors and scientists possess the top 2% IQ's in the general population (130+).
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/98-07.pdf
Posted by: Angash Flinelet3775 || 12/14/2004 19:48 Comments || Top||

#19  These are the choices we as a society face in light of the ever greater march of technology. Personally I think that we must do everything to save a child or preserve its life unless the parents deem otherwise. This is not the states decision. However as a parent, I know that I would not want my child kept alive on machines for who knows how long if she or he had no brain.

Earleir generations did not face this issue either for the young, the old or severely injured, at least not in this extreme. These babies just would have died.
Posted by: Remoteman || 12/14/2004 20:04 Comments || Top||

#20  phil_b - ok, I can kind of see your point except for one thing.
What is so bothersome is that in almost every other situation we allow parents to make decisions for their child.....except, apparently, in this one. That's what I have a real problem with.
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 22:31 Comments || Top||

#21  I have a real problem with this - how long before "termial illness" criteria expands? If I'm paying for my HMO care, do I or my HMO decide what's too expensive?
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 23:04 Comments || Top||

#22  AF3775, my data would be from the late 60s before the university system was dummed down to accomodate much larger numbers (<5% of the age group got a university education). And it wasn't an impression, it was hard data. IQs were a raging controversy at the time resulting in full blown demonstrations at my university. At the time I was fully aware the Left was cooking the data to fit their theories. Anecdotally and I knew quite a number of med students, they were typically from affluent backgrounds and their parents had spent serious money on tutoring them to get the grades to get in to med school, whereas science (which includes math) students like me, found science (relatively) easy and could get the grades with minimal effort.

DB, parents only choose for their children when they are paying. When teh state pays, the state chooses.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 23:25 Comments || Top||

#23  Dr Steve's gotta be doing some major eye rolls and wincing...

I am, oh, I am.

We did debate this when the story ran here last week. I guess I'm just too much of an American, 'cause when I took the Hippocratic Oath I meant every word. Euthanasia is repulsive to me in every way. I don't believe in it, I won't do it, and I consider it murder.

Let me be clear: I have no quarrel with moving away from "curative" therapy and towards "comfort care" in cases where it's really clear that the end is at hand. I'm all for removing uncomfortable and unwarranted therapies in the terminally ill, and ensuring that their last hours/days/weeks are comfortable and have as much meaning as they want. That isn't euthanasia, that's just humane medicine.

If a baby is born anencephalic (no cerebral cortex), that baby isn't going to live more than a day or two. Just isn't going to happen. So make the baby comfortable, ensure that the mother (or at least a nurse or doc) can hold that baby, keep it warm, clean, dry, and hydrated. When it dies, it dies, and everyone can justly cry and lament what happened. But do not, do NOT, approach that baby with a syringe of morphine.

There are indeed hard issues as to payment, personal choice, surrgoate decision making, government control, etc., in many aspects of medicine. This isn't one of those hard issues. It's easy. Euthanasia is murder.
Posted by: Steve White || 12/14/2004 23:38 Comments || Top||

#24  If I'm paying for my HMO care, do I or my HMO decide what's too expensive?
Good question, Frank G. You should check your HMO policy.

With PPO's there's a set limit that the insurer is willing to spend on an individual policy holder. In my case, it's $5 million. And everytime I see a physician, on the "Explanation of Benefits" that is mailed to me, I see the running tally of the insurers' payout versus the $5 Million Lifetime benefit. Crass but upfront. I imagine your HMO has a set limit of costs it is responsible for covering, perhaps a bit lower than my PPO but not significantly so, because the higher cost of my insurance premium is due to having a choice in physicians I can see sans gatekeeper.

But with socialized medicine, the taxpayers of that country are forgoing the individual cost of insurance premiums and instead pooling their resources with the greater whole thus entrusting the decisions of "limits" owed to them as individuals re: payouts for medical care to gov't bureaucrats who look out for what's best for the whole not the individual. So what I'm saying is if you keep a supplementary HMO policy in force when you reach geezerhood, whatever cost Medicare does not pick up, your HMO policy does. In socialized medicine countries like Canada, geezers have outlived their usefullness to the system, so it's buns up, because it's best for the greater whole. Some countries like Switzerland allow a dual system of private and public medical systems to be in force. In Canada no such luck. Hildabeast wants the Canadian version of medical care adopted.

Medical care is incredibly expensive and it's not predictable from person to person. That's what people don't realize when they yap about so-called human rights to free medical care. Medical care is not like education when gov't can have a ballpark average of costs to educate each individual from K to grade 12.
Posted by: Angash Flinelet3775 || 12/15/2004 0:10 Comments || Top||


France stands up to Turkey (really) on Armenian Genocide
France wants Turkey to acknowledge the World War One massacre of Armenians during negotiations on its membership of the European Union, Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said Monday. "It is a request that France will make, to recognise the tragedy from the start of the century .... Turkey must carry out this task as a memorial," he told reporters after talks with his EU counterparts in Brussels.
[later in the article there is acknowledgement that it is the Armenian community that is pressing France to do this]
Posted by: mhw || 12/14/2004 8:56:40 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Turkey is popping up a big middle finger.
Some French nerds trying to make bonus in innerpolitical voters atraction. Nothing to worry about.
Posted by: Murat || 12/14/2004 10:02 Comments || Top||

#2  Nothing to worry about = Turkey in denial
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:04 Comments || Top||

#3  Nope, Nope,
wouldnt us, the Armenians just suddenly and spontaneously all committed suicide. We had nothin to do with it, we swear by the beard of our beloved prophet.
You cant insult us by forcing us to admit the truth, Its downright unislamic to do that,
Bwahahahahaha..........
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 10:12 Comments || Top||

#4  France stands up for something? Where's the "Hell freezes over" graphic?
Posted by: Korora || 12/14/2004 10:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Here ya go, K, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:30 Comments || Top||

#6  Ah! Michigan!
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 10:59 Comments || Top||

#7  Murat, I'm not up on my turkish history but was the Armenian thing before, after, or during Attaturk's rise to power?
Posted by: DeviantSaint || 12/14/2004 13:06 Comments || Top||

#8  DeviantSaint, both, before and after. Ended in 1923, by a sheer lack of Armenians to be genocided.
Posted by: Sobiesky || 12/14/2004 13:10 Comments || Top||

#9  seems to me the EU is popping up a big middle finger to Turkey....
Posted by: Dan || 12/14/2004 14:12 Comments || Top||

#10  AFAIk, the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by the Young Turks who held power before and during WWI. Ataturk, wasn't a young Turk, in fact he was held an opponent and held in suspicion (according to Lawrence of Arabia). I don't know if he restarted the genocide after his raise to power. Could be since he was a nationalist, or perhaps he didn't because he despised Islamism (someone posted words of him in this forum proving he probably despised not only Islamism but Islam) and Islamism was one of the reasons for the genocide (BTW the spiritual father of Aragfat and Hitler's friend, Hadj Amin Husseini, took part in it).

Ataturk got a honoris causa doctorate of a Greek Univeristy for "his work in ending the enemity between Greeks and Turks". However he needed the Greeks. I don't know what he did for or against the Armenians (who by then were part of Soviet Union).
Posted by: JFM || 12/14/2004 15:01 Comments || Top||

#11  This demand is France's way of preventing Turkey from entering the EU. It will probably work, since the current government would be turned out of power if they acknowledged the genocide and the EU won't let them in until that happens now that France has officially made this an issue.

Unfortunately, it will also probably contribute to a more radicalized Islamic Turkey over the next decade or so.
Posted by: too true || 12/14/2004 15:08 Comments || Top||

#12  Armenian sources say Kemal Ataturk was involved in the later stages of the Armenian genocide.

See http://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 12/14/2004 17:34 Comments || Top||

#13  I have to dissapoint you guys: for inner politics France says Turkey must recognise a never happened genocide, but at the European forum they say there is no such demand or criteria, let say it is French politics.

The only thing France fears from Turkey is its pro-Americanism, with the large population Turkey has she would get lots of seats in the Euro parliament and theorethically together with another pro-American country (Britain) they could veto 75% of all Euro parliament decissions. So to be short France doesn't fear Turkey but the American influence on the European politics.
This I write for those no-brain Americans here, so that you can understand a bit what goes on in Euro circles at the moment ---> France is pro Turkish EU accession provided she would get a special status (namely a reduced power in the Euro parliament), Britain is pro Turkish EU accession with full memberships status.
Posted by: Murat || 12/14/2004 17:57 Comments || Top||

#14  Everytime you deny the Armenian genocide, it becomes clearer and clearer that you would have cheerfully been slitting throats if you had the chance.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 18:03 Comments || Top||

#15  Murat: "a never happened genocide".

There you have it. That's it!
I am hiring a voodoo priest and asking him to summon the souls of Armenians that have been obliterated by Turks so they can haunt Murat in his dreams.
Posted by: Sobiesky || 12/14/2004 18:13 Comments || Top||

#16  Everytime you deny the Armenian genocide, it becomes clearer and clearer that you would have cheerfully been slitting throats if you had the chance.

not likely. too cowardly. He would have been on the sideline shrieking in ecstacy like a little girl, however
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 18:25 Comments || Top||

#17  France is pro Turkish EU accession ... Britain is pro Turkish EU accession

It must be ther Germans keeping them out.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 18:34 Comments || Top||

#18  Still ver. 3.1 is showing signs of rational thought. It is against the rulz to say the Armenian Masacre happened, and maybe this new, slightly improved Murat is making sure his Turko PC tracks are covered.

Now, let's talk over rated infantry in Korea.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 18:43 Comments || Top||

#19  "pro-American"

With "friends" like Turkey - we don't need any enemies.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 18:46 Comments || Top||

#20  France says Turkey must recognise a never happened genocide...The only thing France fears from Turkey is its pro-Americanism

Wow, all that was needed was yesterday's "radical Islamists will never gain power" and it'd have been a trifecta of howlers.
Posted by: Pappy || 12/14/2004 19:57 Comments || Top||

#21  Murat does have some truth on his side. Turkey has, for instance, had some security arrangements with Israel recently.

That doesn't mean we all hold hands and hum happy songs together and I'm pissed as hell about Incirlik and the refusal for the 4th ID -- especially after we stood up for them in NATO on defense.

Still, they aren't Iran or Syria and that's worth noting .....
Posted by: too true || 12/14/2004 20:16 Comments || Top||

#22  Still, they aren't Iran or Syria and that's worth noting .....

true, but Turkey needs to acknowledge their backstab before nat'l relations rehab can proceed. They turned to the EU and got kicked in the teeth. It's always tough to return to a spouse you cheated on after being spurned by your fickle lover, neh?
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 20:22 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
DR Congo 'fighting Rwanda troops'
The Democratic Republic of Congo government says its troops in the east are battling Rwandan soldiers and not Congolese rebels, as had been reported. There have been many recent reports that Rwandan troops had crossed the border but last week, the UN said there was no conclusive evidence.
Well, if you'd just leave the bar and look....
Rwanda has denied that its soldiers are in DR Congo. The latest fighting has raised fears that the deal to end the five-year war in DR Congo could unravel.
Was it raveled to begin with?
The United Nations peacekeeping mission in DR Congo is leaving for the town of Kanyabayonga, 160 km north of the North Kivu provincial capital, Goma, to investigate the fighting, a spokeswoman said.
"Oh, if we must. Be a good chap and pack the tea set."
"The Rwandans have sent soldiers to reinforce the positions they never really left in North Kivu," DR Congo Information Minister Henri Mova Sakanyi said. The Congolese army claims to have captured four rebels, two of whom it says are Rwandans. Last week, confidential United Nations documents said that Rwanda still maintained "military control" in parts of eastern DR Congo through the rebel groups it backed during the war, although this was denied by Rwanda.
Sussssh, don't tell anyone, it's confidential
"There are no Rwandan forces in the Congo. If there are any clashes there it is a Congolese affair. They should sort it out themselves," Richard Sezibera, Rwanda's presidential envoy for the Great Lakes region, told Reuters news agency. Under a power-sharing agreement set up to end the fighting, North Kivu was awarded to the former RCD rebels.
Yeah, Land For Peace, works every time.
It had been reported that the fighting in North Kivu was between regular Congolese army troops, sent to the area to stop the reported Rwandan incursion, and RCD fighters, who were supposed to have been integrated into national army. The United Nations has more than 10,000 peacekeepers in DR Congo but they are accused of not doing enough to prevent renewed conflict.
Really?
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 8:49:56 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  the problem is that DR Congo (doctor Congo?) was never really raveled, as you say. Rwanda is going in, to stop radical Hutu guerrillas from using Congo as a base - these guerillas are the same nice folks who committed one of the worst genocides since 1945 a few years back. Rwandas justified if you ask me, as are the RDC they back (though theyve used some unnecessary roughness themselves) Its probably GOOD that the UN troops are looking the other way - lets the Rwandans do what they have to do. What the UN and the world REALLY need to do is to rebuild Congo, so that Congo can stop its territory being used this way. OTOH Congo may be too big, too diverse, to really be rebuilt as a nation. Might be better off splitting it, into 3 or 4 more manageable states.


Think of Rwanda, as Israel but more primitive, sitting next to a Lebanon that about 50 times as big, but even MORE backward.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 9:38 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
New mass grave discovered
INVESTIGATORS had discovered a new mass grave in Iraq, near the city of Sulaimaniya in the autonomous Kurdish region of northern Iraq, interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said today. Mr Allawi told Iraq's National Council that the grave, which may contain around 500 bodies, had been discovered today, but gave no further details.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 8:42:55 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Michael Moore declined comment"
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:43 Comments || Top||

#2  sigh. I don't ever want to get immune to the horror and loss this represents.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 9:27 Comments || Top||

#3  A free Kurdistan to the Kurds, NOW !
Posted by: Slomort Shotch9331 || 12/14/2004 9:36 Comments || Top||

#4  These must have been those children playing in a field and flying kites that Mike Al-Moore found (oops, right - he didn't have the courage to actually go to Iraq - my bad..). We haven't found them anywhere else.

I'm sure the MSM will be all over this just as they finish with soddomizing the prison scandal dead horse and the marine-shooting an 'innocent' terrorists scandal and any other scandals which come along. Tell you what -- I'll call you in about 5 years.... (dont call me).....
Posted by: Sloting Gronter5111 || 12/14/2004 9:48 Comments || Top||

#5  The Iraqi Kurd prefers kickin' up on 'is back, surrounded by two, three thousand of 'is mates. They're pinin' for the fjords!
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||

#6  I used to believe that we would have been much better off to divide Iraq up into three states, Shia, Sunni and Kurd. But now I think I was wrong. Alone, they would not have been safe from Turkish aggression to remove the threat Turkey perceives from an Independent Kurdistan. Yippy The Dogman would have, IMHO, seen opportunity to eliminate "The Kurd Problem" and to grab those oil fields. I now believe the Kurds are much stronger and better off within the larger republic of Iraq.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:32 Comments || Top||

#7  Wouldn't be just Turkey, 2B. Figure Syria to the West taking Sunni portions under 'protection' and what part of Iraq's south that the Saudis didn't control, becoming an Iranian version of Lebanon.
Posted by: Pappy || 12/14/2004 11:14 Comments || Top||

#8  Pappy: agreed.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:33 Comments || Top||

#9  Gee, maybe we can get the Euros to help investigate.

/sarc
Posted by: Xbalanke || 12/14/2004 16:21 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Was Javid Iqbal Wazir A Terrorist????
hASALA MO ALIKUM THE READERS....I once posted an article here some months ago i.e"waziristan paradise for alqaeda and taliban fighters" and a stupid given a comment in which he call the Alqaeda wrriors dogs....
That's a insult to dogs
In general. I dunno if it's an insult to Shih Tzus, though...
...I wonder with his stupidity that...but then I thought that as these coward Englishmen were afraid from Adolf Hitler during the world war..
Yeah, pack of cowards, I remember the surrender ceremony in Buckingham Palace..oh wait...
same is the case in present days....that Usama,s name made them frightened in there dreams.....and in confusion and under the feelings of defeat they use teh language like this.....
Well, if anyone is a expert on confused language, it would be you.
I wonder there Boss Bush on one side says that we have started the war against terrorism and to bestow the humanity with freedom...
That's the plan, yes....
But on other side what is going in iraq with the innocents and prisoners of Abi gharib......that is shameful for them...and on this every muslim hates them.
We don't like it much either, that's why they are being tried. Still, bad as they were, they didn't lop anyones head off.
I wonder on the cowardness and slavery of our Muslim leaders who obey them like God Almighty...just to save The State...
The State, their necks, your neck
...but if tomorrow these soldiers of BUSH who are also giving the name Crusades to this war...
No, we've avoided that term, run away from it in fact. It's your side that keeps insisting it's a Crusade. When we decide it's a Crusade, you'll be the first to know
By the way, Clem, a "jihad" is a Crusade without a cross — both are "holy wars."
....say that we have to attack the Kaba Thullah...rather Musharaf Rascal will support them....on behalf of Pakistan.....and to save their state.
If there are bad guys in your "Kaba Thullah", you get first crack at cleaning them out. You won't like it if we have to come in there.
If it was a "Crusade," you can bet that the Kaba Thullah would be glassed over at least six inches deep by now.
I wonder that Musharaf and His Deciple is always declaring that The war in Waziristan is only against The foreigners...
We wonder about that as well
...since the locals seem to be in love with the idea of having foreigners in their midst. I guess it's because they're so used to submitting to foreign rule. Long for the old days, do they?
....but...they are so mean that on just one day before Eid ul Fitr i.e on 13th Nov,2004....one of our cadet Javid Iqbal wazir as shot dead by Pakistani army to avenge the remote mine blast...whether he was a terrorist.....???he was there in Wana bazar on that evening to celeberate Eid vacations...and was a student of 2nd year class....in cadet college razmak(north waziristan)...
Ah yes, the Fighting Razmak's
...The army was awre that the blast was remote controlled but rather to hide their stupidity in anger they opened fire on the near civilians who were shopping for Eid day...
Just opened fire on peaceful shoppers, boy, that's never happened in Waziristan before
...and Javid became the victim....which was the edlder son of his father.....WAS he A terrorist????
If he was going to school in Waziristan, I'd say the odds are pretty good
I've no idea if he was a terrorist. In civilized countries, though, things don't explode without a reason. When they do, the authorities hunt down the people responsible and either kill them or arrest them, depending on the amount of explosives they're carrying. Really, this is something you've got to expect when you go setting off bombs. If I was you, I'd think about not setting them off, in which case people just standing around minding their own business, as Javid presumably was, wouldn't be bumped off.
REGARDS>>>>>>ZAHEER ABBAS MAHSOOD
GOVT COLLEGE LAHORE E>MAIL:razmian_maseedgul@yahoo.com
Posted by: Zaheer Abbas Mahsood Ex-Razmian || 12/14/2004 8:17:58 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [9 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Yes.
Posted by: Spot || 12/14/2004 9:01 Comments || Top||

#2  "GOVT COLLEGE LAHORE"

Regards Islamostupidity - A+; but for English Comp and Logic - demand a refund. I'll back you.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 9:17 Comments || Top||

#3  Him holdings Puce Chair by Rhetorical. Not click.
Posted by: Rawsnacks || 12/14/2004 9:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Wow. The Pakistani Joe Mendiola...
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 10:29 Comments || Top||

#5  further - it may well be that the Paki soldiers killed the wrong guy. I can assure you Zaheer, that US troops are better trained, and that if US troops were in Waziristan, thered be far less collateral damage, and, in all likelihood, the whole mess, both in NWFP and in Afhanistan, would be over and done with a lot quicker. However folks like yourself have made it very clear you dont want US troops in Pakistan, and that you would be quick to lead a revolution against the STATE in that instance. Ergo, there is no choice but to use Paki troops instead, despite their problems - problems which YOU must live with. Should you decide that you dont want the Paki troops up there, and you decide to overthrow the Paki State, despite its having kept US troops out of Pakland, you can be assured that the US will NOT be pleased. You can also be assured that the US WILL in that instance take sides in what would certainly be a Paki civil war, and that the results will NOT be pretty. You can also be assured that in such circumstances we would certainly reevaluate our balanced position between India and Pakistan. Dont expect the Indian army troops to be kinder and gentler to folks like you than the Paki soldiers.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#6  great...this guy'll be on the phone-in help desk for some corporation
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:43 Comments || Top||

#7  you go, LH!
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:43 Comments || Top||

#8  Beautifully said, Liberalhawk. Scoop Jackson would be proud!

Happy last night of Hannukah, by the way :-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 11:23 Comments || Top||


Mullah Omar security chief 'held'
Afghan security forces have captured fugitive Taleban leader Mullah Omar's former security chief, officials say. Mullah Naqibullah Toor is reported to have been picked up with another Taleban commander on Monday in the southern city of Kandahar. Provincial government spokesman Khalid Pashtun confirmed the arrests. Mullah Naqibullah Toor was unarmed when he was arrested late on Monday after a tip-off, Kandahar officials say. He headed Mullah Omar's household security when the Taleban controlled Afghanistan, but the BBC's Rahimullah Yusufzai, a long-time watcher of the Taleban, says it is not clear how important a role he has played in recent years.
Oh, he's probably harmless. Just let him go...
Afghan officials accuse Mullah Naqibullah Toor of a string of attacks, and say his arrest is highly significant. "It will definitely help to reduce bomb attacks and insurgency in Kandahar because he was the main person organising these kind of attacks," Kandahar police chief Khan Mohammed told AFP news agency.
Wouldn't that statement tend to negate the previous statement that it's not clear how important a role he's played in recent years? (Who the hell writes this stuff?)
Officials say Mullah Naqibullah Toor was seized along with a second man, Mullah Qayyum Angar, an alleged Taleban commander accused of involvement in recent violence in the province. The Taleban were ousted in late 2001 when US forces invaded Afghanistan following attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York and the Pentagon in Washington. The Taleban had given sanctuary to Osama Bin Laden and members of his al-Qaeda network, who carried out are accused of carrying out the attacks.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 12/14/2004 7:37:49 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  the "Escape Motorcycle of Doom™" in the shop?
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:27 Comments || Top||

#2  Join "Mullah Naqibullah Tours " for a grand
tour of Gitmo.
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:20 Comments || Top||

#3  "but the BBC’s Rahimullah Yusufzai, a long-time watcher of the Taleban, says it is not clear how important a role he has played in recent years."

Whether or not he has played an important role, he was involved in the attacks on 9/11. It's time to bring out the pliers & meat hooks and make this PIG squeal. If doesn't want to talk, then a hollow point at close range will suffice. Bottom line is that he plots against and hates the U.S.

BTW, I love the way the BBC is making excuses for this terrorist.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beebs stays on this story to make sure he is not tortured. I believe the Egyptian introgaters are in order here. Let's stop being PC and call the the Taliban for who they are, "Paki's".
Posted by: Poison Reverse || 12/14/2004 9:28 Comments || Top||

#4  1. hats off to the afghan "federales" who made the catch. Theyve come a long way. (insert generic praise of our brave muslim allies here)
2. Hats off to US spec ops, intell, etc who certainly provided the the info behind the catch
3. Lets hope he leads mullah omar Hisself. That would be a big catch, and would probably help in the Osama hunt.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 9:31 Comments || Top||

#5  LiberalHawk,
Does that mean hunting season is open ??

Martha, my elephant rifle, please.
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:35 Comments || Top||

#6 
Posted by: Howard UK || 12/14/2004 9:38 Comments || Top||

#7  "They are now believed to be assisting the authorities in their inquiries" (Typical British police press release).
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 10:54 Comments || Top||

#8  Long flowing robes + chain drive = Darwin Award
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 10:55 Comments || Top||

#9  More details, they bagged three of them:
Acting on a tip from an informant, Afghanistan provincial forces arrested two top Taliban figures in southern Afghanistan, The Telegraph reported Tuesday. Captured were the personal security chief for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar,Toor Mullah Naqibullah Khan, and Mullah Angar, another senior official with the fundamentalist Islamic group. The pair were riding in a van between Arghandab and Kandahar, and police reported also seizing "a satellite phone and some important documents."
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 14:43 Comments || Top||

#10  Captured were the personal security chief for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar,Toor Mullah Naqibullah Khan, and Mullah Angar, another senior official with the fundamentalist


Three? I thought Toor Mullah Naqibullah Khan WAS the personal security chief for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar. Thus making a pair, along with the other guy.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:46 Comments || Top||

#11  Khan and Angar--oops, Con and Anger. Perfect names for criminal psychopaths.
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 15:04 Comments || Top||

#12  Oh, please hold me! I need to be held!
Posted by: Mullah Naqibullah Toor || 12/14/2004 15:36 Comments || Top||

#13  Three? ....Thus making a pair, along with the other guy.
Pair + other guy = three.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 15:43 Comments || Top||

#14  Howard,

Thanks for the Cycle of Violence graphic...
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 17:39 Comments || Top||

#15  Howard is going to be made famous!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 18:36 Comments || Top||

#16  a sat phone? "Can you hear me now?"
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 18:52 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Congressman Warns of Iranian Attack on U.S.
A senior Republican congressman has been warning America's intelligence community for more than a year of an alleged Iranian plot to crash commercial airliners into a New Hampshire nuclear reactor.
Since February 2003, Rep. Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania has held a series of secret meetings in Paris with a former high-ranking official in the Shah's government who has correctly predicted, according to Mr. Weldon, a number of internal developments in Iran ranging from the regime's atomic weapons programs to its support for international terrorism, including Al Qaeda.
Based on two informants inside the mullahs' inner circle, Mr. Weldon's source, whom he code-named "Ali," relayed allegations to the Pennsylvania lawmaker that an Iranian-backed terrorist cell is seeking to hijack Canadian airliners and crash them into an American reactor. The target of the operation was only identified by Ali as SEA, leading Mr. Weldon to predict it was the Seabrook reactor in New Hampshire, about 40 miles north of Boston. Ali told the congressman that the attack was first planned for between November 23 and December 3, 2003, but was postponed to take place after this year's presidential election.
For nearly two years, Mr. Weldon tried to quietly press the CIA and a Senate panel that oversees Langley to follow up on the intelligence his Iranian source in Paris was providing. But these efforts came to nothing, according to Mr. Weldon. So now Mr. Weldon is going public. The congressman said in an interview last week that he intended to publish a book early next year outlining the intelligence he has collected from various sources that he said will detail an Iranian plot to conduct a more lethal attack on America than September 11, 2001.
"I get a lot of wackos who come to see me, who claim to have information," he said. "In this case, this source came to me from a former member of Congress, a Democrat. I followed up a lead. That lead developed an ongoing process of information-sharing for two years that I took to the highest levels of the intelligence community."
In Washington, the new book from Mr. Weldon, based in part on his meetings with Ali, will provide fresh ammunition for the Republicans against an intelligence community perceived by the White House as hostile to the president's policies.
Last month, the new director of the CIA, Porter Goss, a former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, sent many of the most senior analysts and operations officers into early retirement. In a speech he gave to the staff at Langley, Mr. Goss had to remind the employees that the president sets national security policy.
But if Mr. Weldon's source turns out to be right, America could also be losing a valuable intelligence asset on Iran, a country where most intelligence analysts in America concede the CIA has too few human sources.
The congressman's experience with America's spy service in the last year echoes frustrations from other American officials and analysts who have cultivated Iranians willing to provide America with intelligence, but who have been ignored. After a December 2001 meeting in Rome between Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin and Iran-Contra figure Manucher Ghorbanifar, the State Department and CIA went out of their way to shut down the channel. Mr. Franklin is now the target of a grand jury investigation into alleged espionage activities for passing information to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
A summary of Ali's predictions were outlined in a November 2003 letter to the Republican chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senator Roberts from Kansas. In its opening lines, Mr. Weldon wrote, "This letter is to warn you of an intelligence failure in the process of happening."
Later in the letter, Mr. Weldon, who is the vice chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, wrote, "I am not asserting that such an attack shall occur. But given [Ali's] record of accurate predictions, shouldn't the Intelligence Community at least be investigating his story?"
The letter and an accompanying memo titled, "Ali: a Credible Source," goes into detail about information Mr. Weldon's source provided that was later confirmed in the press. For example, Ali first passed on the Iranian threat to the reactor at a Paris meeting on May 17, 2003.
On August 22, 2003, the Toronto Star reported the arrest of 19 people in Canada for immigration violations who were suspected of being connected in a terrorist conspiracy. One of the men in the cell was taking flight lessons and had flown an airplane directly over an Ontario nuclear power plant, according to the newspaper.
So, impressed with the quality of his source's information, Mr. Weldon met in 2003 with the director of central intelligence, George Tenet, to plead his case to get funding for Ali. But the CIA, according to the Pennsylvania lawmaker, demanded to know the identities of Ali's sources inside Iran, a condition Mr. Weldon said was unreasonable given the high-risk espionage.
"I took this straight to the top," Mr. Weldon said in an interview. "I wanted to work through the channels but I did not get anywhere."
Frustrated with the CIA's response, Mr. Weldon took his case to the Senate panel that oversees the agency.
He pressed them in the 2003 letter to hold a hearing on the matter and urge the CIA to get Ali the money to continue to pay off his sources inside the Islamic republic. According to Mr. Weldon, the committee did not respond in any meaningful way. "One or two senior people called the chief of staff. Not the kind of response I wanted. I had to get this off my shoulders," he said in an interview.
Mr. Weldon said more of Ali's intelligence will be shared in his forthcoming book, which he promised would "shake Washington."
He said that the manuscript, which he has just completed, details how Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini, "has set up a separate entity in the government the president does not know about, which includes all the terrorist groups connected to bin Laden and others. They are avowed to consummate a major attack inside the United States. In the book I name this plot."
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 6:57:26 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [21 views] Top|| File under:

#1  This DOES NOT surprise me. Time is NOT on the insane and DEMONIC Mullah's side. They are facing extermination from their own people AND POSSIBLY even from us.
Posted by: leaddog2 || 12/14/2004 19:12 Comments || Top||

#2  "In the book I name this plot"

"I call it herbert mullah suicide"
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 19:13 Comments || Top||

#3  Stunning - and the guy's going public against the tide strikes me, at least in this case, as substance behind the charges. This is the sort of thing that gives many of us gray hair - the sources are definitely there and available, but if the CIA is this far gone then lex has been calling it right all along: tear it down and start over.

Get a list of those who were forced out, fired, reprimanded, etc. - especially where prejudice was used, that's credibility considering the CIA management - we'll need a core of competence to start whatever follows on.

I don't predict it, but I would not shed a tear if down the road, after one of these attacks is pulled off successfully against us, Tenet got one behind the ear. I got that cold feeling reading this... maybe it's high time we got cold-hearted and applied some hardcore realpolitik to the entire class of Clintoon Camelot II holdovers - throughout the Gov't.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 19:26 Comments || Top||

#4  I heard Michael "Anonymous" Scheuer on the Medved show today. He is a complete idiot-- more proof positive that the CIA is full of idiots.
Posted by: Wuzzalib || 12/14/2004 19:50 Comments || Top||

#5  "...maybe it's high time we got cold-hearted and applied some hardcore realpolitik to the entire class of Clintoon Camelot II holdovers - throughout the Gov't."

Actually, it is WAY past time, high or otherwise. Should've been done a long time ago.

-AR
Posted by: Analog Roam || 12/14/2004 20:31 Comments || Top||

#6  But.... did he say it was a 'slam dunk'?
Posted by: CrazyFool || 12/14/2004 20:34 Comments || Top||

#7  The mullahs better think long and hard about their plans. Another attack the size of 9/11/2001 or bigger is going to result in a LOT of angry Americans, which won't bode well for the Middle East.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 21:03 Comments || Top||

#8  Whosoever unleashes the nuclear genie will find their atoms scattered to the four winds and their homelands turned into green glass unless W goes in the attack.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 21:50 Comments || Top||

#9  you think CHENEY WOULD REFRAIN??? Bwahahahahah
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 21:52 Comments || Top||

#10  I heard Michael "Anonymous" Scheuer on the Medved show today. He is a complete idiot-- more proof positive that the CIA is full of idiots.

I heard some of it. I think someone once used "hubris" to describe Scheurer, and he liked the word so much he decided to use it himself.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 23:07 Comments || Top||

#11  SHUT IT DOWN, goddamnit. This isn't funny anymore.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 23:36 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks & Islam
Zogby: Islam's so misunderstood
The media "deliberately" created a wave of hatred against Islam, a top researcher said here yesterday.
"Yeah. There was no reason to do that. Just because Islamists killed 3000 Americans in a surprise attack is no reason to get testy!"
"Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the United States. The situation created by the media led to a worse situation," President of Arab American Institute Dr. James J. Zogby said. "There is an immediate need to rehabilitate the image of Islam. We need to present a true picture of Islam to the Americans. They need to know the truth about the religion and its ethics and not the picture being painted by the media," he said. "This is the biggest challenge and mission for the Muslims in general, the need to change the perception of Americans. If the image is changed then the persistent problem between Arabs and Americans would diminish."
"We should make it a requirement that all Americans have to read Qaradawi's pronouncements, read al-Ahram, and listen to translations of the Friday sermons in Mecca! That'll clear everything up for them!"
Zogby was speaking during the final day of the 11th World Islamic Banking Conference (WIBC), held under the patronage of the Bahraini Prime Minister Sheikh Khalifa ibn Salman Al- Khalifa. "The situation between the Muslims and the US can be described as one side playing football while the other is watching. In the end, who will win if only one side is being active," he said. "This road is not leading us anywhere except more confusion."
Actually, it consisted of one side playing hardball for 30 years, while the other sat in the national bathroom, exploring its sexuality. Now that we started suiting up, the game's not going quite so easy for the other side.
Dr. Zogby said that authors of three best selling books on Islam in the US have never been to Saudi Arabia. "They have presented the wrong picture in their books. Imagine someone is writing on Islam and has never been to this area and does not know any Arabs. Islam has become one of the most favorite topics among writers after 9/11."
Imagine somebody writing a history of ancient Rome who never went to ancient Rome and didn't know any ancient Romans.

Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 4:24:55 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Dr. Zogby said that authors of three best selling books on Islam in the US have never been to Saudi Arabia.

BFD. And most Catholics never make it Rome.

As someone who has lived in an Arab country and has visited 3 others, I can assure all of you that one's view of Islam does not improve with the decrease of distance or the increase of time.
Posted by: Dreadnought || 12/14/2004 16:49 Comments || Top||

#2  I'm sure President Kerry agrees with your predictions, Mr. Zogby.
Posted by: True German Ally || 12/14/2004 16:51 Comments || Top||

#3  Poor damn Muslims. When they aren't being persecuted or victimized, they're being misunderstood. The way people talk, you'd think they might've blown up some buildings and killed a buncha people or something...
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 16:54 Comments || Top||

#4  That's his brother TGA.
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 16:55 Comments || Top||

#5  A bright family :-)
Posted by: True German Ally || 12/14/2004 17:03 Comments || Top||

#6  I'm sold. I'll just hop on the next plane to Riyadh and take the first available camel to Mecca, so I can learn all about Islam.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 17:26 Comments || Top||

#7  Dr. Zogby said that authors of three best selling books on Islam in the US have never been to Saudi Arabia

But isn't Islam, as practiced in the US, Islam? And if the imams in US mosques happen to be preaching hate and death-to-jooooos, isn't that what Islam is?

Another ROP'er who has to keep reminding us that islam is the ROP, lest we conclude otherwise, based on facts.
Posted by: PlanetDan || 12/14/2004 17:55 Comments || Top||

#8  I'm amazed at the folks who scream about how Islam is "misunderstood", who will then scream bloody murder when you start quoting chapter and verse from the Koran, hadith, and sira that justify everything you've said.

And will shriek all the louder when you point out that Islamic societies always seem to organize themselves around those verses -- and their worst interpretations -- than around the sweetness and light ones they like to quote.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 18:02 Comments || Top||

#9  That darn media has created a climate of hate. On the hother hand - how should the media report Muslims in the streets cheering 9/11; fatwas declared by clerics to kill infidel Americans; Muslims in a great debate over whether beheadings carried out by terrorists are countenanced under Islam; Muslims looking the other way after the murder of school children in Russia; the murder of Van Gogh followed by Muslims looking the other way; the continual cold blooded murder of Iraqis citizens by terrorists followed by the cheering of Muslims; ... ? Yeah, the media has created quite a problem for the Muslims.
Posted by: HANK || 12/14/2004 18:05 Comments || Top||

#10  Dr. Zogby said that authors of three best selling books on Islam in the US have never been to Saudi Arabia

probably because your 7th century hotbed of ignorance, intolerance and blame/humiliation are afraid to let anyone in who may have diferent ideas in
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 18:23 Comments || Top||

#11  But we DID misunderstand Islam. See, we thought it was the religion of peace and enlightment. Turns out Islam is the cult of death, wife beating, gang rapists, cowardice, treachery, pedophilia and hatred.

We get it now, and are taking the appropriate steps, ie extermination of this death cult from the face of the earth along with it's soon-to-be-fed-to-pigs followers.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 12/14/2004 18:30 Comments || Top||

#12  Someone's been drinkin' Koran-Aid.
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 12/14/2004 18:41 Comments || Top||

#13  Not too many Muslims have been to the Moon, either, but...
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 18:43 Comments || Top||

#14  Dr Zogby is simply practicing taqiyya (aka tactical lying, dissimulation).
Posted by: mhw || 12/14/2004 19:29 Comments || Top||

#15  mhw that they actually have a word that discribes the practice speaks volunes of how much we actually understand them now and how little we did understand before.

We have been down the path of telling them to play nice. Now we will force them to. I don't judge islam one bit on what it says. I judge it strictly on what is does.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 19:39 Comments || Top||

#16  Sock
Its more than just a word. They have numerous and detailed tractates on how to practice taqiyya (I should have said it was tactical lying to advance Islam as opposed to tactical lying to, say, selling real estate seminars like we have in this country).
Posted by: mhw || 12/14/2004 20:01 Comments || Top||

#17 
Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the United States
Bzzzzt! Wrong answer.

At least some of us understand Islam exactly.

Oh, wait.... Maybe that's his objection.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 12/14/2004 21:16 Comments || Top||

#18  mhw, lying to sell real estate will get you disbarred. Agents can't even not ask certain questions any more, as the answers must be documented. The only thing that can happen is that the buyer is so eager for the property that she accepts certain concerns "as is". At least in the great state of Ohio, anyway.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 21:30 Comments || Top||

#19  no mention of that recent death in the back bedroom or crack in the slab? Termites? Lose your license. Tell a lie to Infidels? Priceless...
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 21:41 Comments || Top||

#20  A bunch of jihadists attack you country repeatedly and kill more than 3000 people. They have been involved in just about every terrorist activity that has occurred in the past 25-30 years. Every time you hear anything about Muslims they are killing someone in the world. WHAT THE HELL IS IT THAT THE MUSLIMS WANT US TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE MISUNDERSTAND? Seems to me the message is pretty clear, there is a concerted effort on the part of Muslims to take over the world and make it over in their image.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 12/14/2004 22:44 Comments || Top||


-Short Attention Span Theater-
Wonderbras recalled
Unedited report from The Sun
A SAUCY new bra has been taken off the shelves because it keeps EXPLODING. The Wonderbra Clearly Daring range is designed to boost cleavage for women wearing plunging gowns — without any revealing straps.
Get's my vote for product of the year.
But the clear tie that holds the cups together keeps SNAPPING, leaving the wearer displaying more than they intended.
Like I said, Product Of The Year!!
Complaints have forced manufacturer Playtex to recall the £20 bras after just one month. The firm warned wearers: "The centre area can break, causing the bra to split open. This can occur on first use but may fail after a number of uses."
Do they need any inspectors?
Playtex are strengthening the strap and expect the range to be back in stores next month.
"We can rebuild them! Better, stronger, firmer...."
One stockist said two customers had returned bras. He said: "They could be embarrassing."
"Careful! You could put an eye out!"
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 3:57:20 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  misrepresentatashun of products
Posted by: half || 12/14/2004 16:50 Comments || Top||

#2  “They could be embarrassing.”

It all depends on how you work it, sister! ;)
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 17:12 Comments || Top||

#3  ROFLMAO!!! Hear, hear! Steve, right? Best in-line commentary of the day - prolly the week - maybe the month - possibly Evar! Lol! Perfect all the way through!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 18:11 Comments || Top||

#4  Hey! A great product! Can we get any of the Older NON-REINFORCED model for our Lady friends!

Well, it was a thought anyway! Ha!
Posted by: leaddog2 || 12/14/2004 18:13 Comments || Top||

#5  So, basicly, they need to be up-armored? How can we send our women into battle like this?
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 12/14/2004 19:09 Comments || Top||

#6  Quagmire! Uh, can I help?
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 19:10 Comments || Top||

#7  hey! truth in advertising: It really does "lift and separate"
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 19:12 Comments || Top||

#8  ...until it doesn't, heh... then it all just sorta hangs out. I have a video (honest!) that I'd like to post a link to, but I've just changed machines and it would take an hour to find the thing. *tease*
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 19:28 Comments || Top||

#9  I don't believe this. I need a demo before I will. This IS the Sun after all.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 19:58 Comments || Top||

#10  Darth Vader: "...You don't know the POWER of the Bra POP...!"
Posted by: smn || 12/14/2004 20:20 Comments || Top||

#11  Frank, if you're still around, I found it...

And I have about 500 others.
This is my personal favorite.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 21:04 Comments || Top||

#12  goddamer work settings! >:(
Posted by: muck4doo || 12/14/2004 21:08 Comments || Top||

#13  I don't get it mucky - what are you complaining about, exactly?
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 21:10 Comments || Top||

#14  im cant see yer links from here. itn say sumthin to the effect of:

fuck you! you are cant watcher thisn you lowly peon. getter back to work!
Posted by: muck4doo || 12/14/2004 21:12 Comments || Top||

#15  Get a nicer job Mucky :-) F*** the admin nazi of your company! He probably eats steaks for breakfast!
Posted by: True German Ally || 12/14/2004 21:15 Comments || Top||

#16  Or 'she', in which case she eats a low-fat yoghurt, exercises daily and is a size 4. I hate her already!
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 21:19 Comments || Top||

#17  thatn my new years resolushun for first month of 2005. :)
Posted by: muck4doo || 12/14/2004 21:20 Comments || Top||

#18  Sorry so slow - I did some more uploading...

Hit the links when you get home, bro - I'll leave the files up for at least a week.

Here are a few more, just for fun:
What men are really thinking
Aussie "Bugga"
Classic Mgmt-type "stolen" idea

I hope you find one you haven't seen, already, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 21:24 Comments || Top||

#19  LOL - Stop PD! - My sides hurt!
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 21:34 Comments || Top||

#20  Here's one I'll bet not many have seen. Nice PC touchy-feely theme... heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 21:42 Comments || Top||

#21  PD - that's a classic - my sons're ROFL - I taught them my ninja bottlecap (behind the back , undrhand, etc.) shots this summer. Wisdom I learned in my fraternity days....
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 21:50 Comments || Top||

#22  And it's a weird site, too check it out for more laughs. heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 21:52 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Politix
WTO begins membership talks w/ Iraq, Afghanistan
Iran still on outside looking in.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 3:51:39 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Cool.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:13 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
The mother of all Palestinian modern-day curses
During a Dead Sea-area dig in 2002, Prof. Yizhar Hirschfeld discovered two small packages wrapped in cloth. The contents of one of them, just recently made public, was a scathing curse aimed at Israeli leaders.

"Oh God almighty, I beg you God to destroy Ariel Sharon, son of Devorah, son of Eve." Thus opens a unique text, written in eloquent Arabic, on parchment found more than two years ago at the bottom of the Dead Sea. "Destroy all his supporters, loyal aides and confidants, and all those who love him and whom he loves among the human beings and among devils and demons," the anonymous writer continues with his curse.

The Dead Sea leaves those who visit it with a doleful impression. It is evaporating fast and needs artificial resuscitation. The once grand inlet in its southern part now has dry patches. Sinkholes are opening around it, endangering anyone walking on the shore.

The Dead Sea at various times has been a bustling center of human activity. Hebrew University Prof. Yizhar Hirschfeld spent years studying the region. In August 2002, he started digging near Matzad Kidron (Hirbat Mazen in Arabic) in the remnants of a magnificent fortress that belonged to Hasmonean King Alexander Yanai from 103 to 76 BCE, south of the Einot Zukim reserve. The fortress' walls are well-preserved, rising five or six meters high.

This fortress was, in fact, a shipyard and housed Alexander Yanai's royal ship, Hirschfeld says. In his book "Longing for the Desert: The Dead Sea Valley in the Time of the Second Temple," he explains that the fortress' location was chosen for its solid land, as opposed to the swampy shifting land north of it. This meant boats could be brought close to the shore and towed to the shipyard.

The Dead Sea's rapidly sinking level, an ecological hazard, is a blessing to archaeologists. At certain points, the sea has receded up to 200 meters from the beach, and explorers are now digging in the exposed land. In August 2002, Hirschfeld and his team dug up 2,500 bronze coins inscribed "King Jonathan," Alexander Yanai's Hebrew name. These coins are part of what is known as "the Dead Sea treasure" - hundreds of thousands of coins that may have fallen from one of the king's ships. They were discovered more than 15 years ago, and several others have been discovered since.

"The people who worked with me searched a few dozen meters offshore and kept finding more and more coins," Hirschfeld says. One of his aides, Yoav Lupen, found something else 20 meters from the shore - two small packages of parchment wrapped in cloth, soaked in a preservative substance with a pungent odor resembling turpentine, and folded in sheets of lead. The packages were handed over to antiquities' preserver Orna Cohen, who opened one of them. It contained a modern, astonishingly venomous curse script.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 3:49:25 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [17 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Freshman English 101: Creative Writing for non-majors.

but the text provides clues pointing to his identity That poor person no doubt is now praying as hard as he cursed, that the famed Israeli scientists don't decide he must be found.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 7:54 Comments || Top||

#2  It seems that these are retrograde curses.
Instead of affecting Israel, the curse backfired
and finished Arafat, the lord of the flies, master of the house of Harkonen ;)
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 8:18 Comments || Top||

#3  Ah, the fabled 115th chapter of the Koran has been found (by a Jew no less).
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 8:30 Comments || Top||

#4  Sounds pretty rhizomatic to me. A modern English prof would give him an "A".
Posted by: Spot || 12/14/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#5  As the Palestinian economy is not in a good condition right now, I have a wonderfull Idea for them : Export their curses abroad.
I am sure the Europeans will stand in line for buying genuine "100% Palestinian Curses(TM)", against Dubia and the US in general.

Perhaps Madonna is also interested in one :)
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:31 Comments || Top||

#6  I think you're on to something, Elder. As written Arabic is lovely to look upon, I would suggest that they start with a variety of sizes suitable for framing, and t-shirts in various sizes and colours. If the "artists" provide a translation on the back in the usual EU languages, the European aborigines will be thrilled to hang such 'native art' on their walls and bodies. In fact, it would probably sell well in North America for the same reasons, just as t-shirts with Japanese sold well over here, and t-shirts with English were a fad in Japan.

Then, too, busy people don't have time to blow things up.....
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#7  Trailing wife,
This is just the beginning, the best is yet to come.
I announce the first Palestinian full featured western :"Cursed by Allah rides agin", Starring
the late Arafat, Clint Eastwood and Eli Wallach, with a guest performance by Jimmah Carter.
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 17:31 Comments || Top||

#8  OK, so long as you get a stand-in for Arafat. The thought of digging him up when we only finally put him under ground is too terrible to bear. Put me down for 100 shares. I'll hide it in the housekeeping budget somehow.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 21:00 Comments || Top||

#9  The thought of digging him up when we only finally put him under ground is too terrible to bear

Not to mention he smells by now ... heh.
Posted by: too true || 12/14/2004 21:24 Comments || Top||

#10  by now? Notice the lack of a smile by anyone within 10 yds of the Muqata before....
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 21:43 Comments || Top||


Down Under
Accused 'had maps, photos'
A SYDNEY man accused of planning terrorist attacks in Australia had maps of the national electricity network, aerial photographs of defence installations and instructions for making explosives, a court was told today. Architect Faheem Khalid Lodhi, 34, faces nine charges, including committing acts in preparation for a terrorist act and collecting documents connected with terrorism.

As his committal hearing began in Central Local Court today, Prosecutor Richard Maidment, SC, told the court that in October 2001 Lodhi had acted "in an apparent official capacity" at a training camp in Lahore, Pakistan, operated by banned terrorist organisation Lashkar-e-Taiba. "The camp specialised in urban warfare," Mr Maidment said. In 2003, after returning to Australia, Lodhi allegedly helped set up French terror suspect Willy Brigitte in a Sydney home and with a mobile phone which was, like his own, registered in a false name. The court was told that before Brigitte was deported to France in October 2003, he and Lodhi communicated regularly with each other and with a contact in Pakistan known as Sajid. Mr Maidment said the association was "connected with the preparation of one or more terrorist acts in Australia". Lodhi also allegedly used a false name to buy maps of the national electricity network and authorities found 15 handwritten pages containing instructions for making explosives in his office. Lodhi also allegedly inquired about purchasing chemicals, a number of which were also listed in the written instructions as ingredients for explosives, Mr Maidment said.

On October 25 last year, Lodhi was seen depositing an A4 envelope in a rubbish bin at a public reserve. It was found to contain 37 pages of aerial photographs of defence establishments HMAS Penguin, Holsworthy Army Base and Victoria Barracks. Mr Maidment told the court Lodhi had downloaded the photographs from the internet in connection with a terrorist act "involving the bombing of one or more establishments". The hearing continues.
Posted by: God Save The World || 12/14/2004 3:42:40 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hang the fucktard !!
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 9:38 Comments || Top||

#2  No, no, no! Architects are artistic types who should never, ever be allowed even in the same room with chemical processes! Please, O Lions of Islam, reserve bomb making to those with some academic training in chemistry, lest they accidently blow up the entire neighborhood, instead of just themselves.

Thank you,
The Management
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#3  I guess I'm in trouble. I'm an Architect who now works in a chemical plant. So far I haven't made anything go BOOM but you never know.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 12/14/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#4  Deacon:

The architects who work in chemical plants and DO make things go boom don't get a chance to discuss their failings on Rantburg.
Posted by: PlanetDan || 12/14/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#5  here some of deacon blues work :)
Posted by: half || 12/14/2004 14:00 Comments || Top||

#6  Deacon Blues, are you designing or mixing? ;-)

Based on your comments at Rantburg though, and what I know of American factories, I suspect that your job training was heavily biased toward how to make things not go boom.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 14:39 Comments || Top||

#7  Very funny, Half. Half's making fun of me because I went to Auburn University. I later transfered to Engineering and yes, my job is how to NOT make things go BOOM and how to comply with the EPA.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 12/14/2004 16:00 Comments || Top||

#8  There you are then, Deacon dear. You're simply an engineer who mistakenly studied the wrong subject at first, before getting yourself straightened out. My own husband thought he wanted to be a doctor, but we caught him in time. I love him dearly, but he wouldn't have handled diabetics who walk into the office eating Twinkies very well, I'm afraid.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 19:51 Comments || Top||


Britain
Beckham nativity scene attacked in London.
A protester has knocked over a controversial waxwork nativity scene featuring the England soccer captain David Beckham and his wife Victoria. The work at the Madame Tussaud's museum stars the Beckhams as the holy couple Mary and Joseph. It also features Kylie Minogue as an angel and Tony Blair, George Bush and the Duke of Edinburgh as the three wise men. Christians of all denominations have been united in calling the exhibit a new low in the cult of celebrity worship. The museum says it has proved popular with the public.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 3:40:18 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [16 views] Top|| File under:

#1  All highly amusing , but the best has to be the Duke of Edinburgh as one of the three wise men ..... classic
Posted by: MacNails || 12/14/2004 6:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Interesting, we have stage actors portray the family and attendents in movies, plays and on televsion, but people don't get this upset. The Renaissance artists often used contemporary and local personalities in their rendering of the event as well, and the church usually didn't burn them at the stake. No one really knows what the assembled cast looked like. It's art, common, but still art. At least the display wasn't 'artistically' dipped in urine or spattered with cow dung at the expense of taxpayers.
Posted by: Don || 12/14/2004 8:42 Comments || Top||

#3  I dunno. I'd say using the appearance of one of the Spice Girls is equivalent to dipping in urine.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 9:12 Comments || Top||

#4  I'm wondering if Madame Tussaud's bothered to get the permission of the folks being represented before they included them in a potentially blasphemous display. Yeah, yeah its Christians so there will be no fatawas but careers could be hurt if the public really hates this idea and its connected to the blokes in question or a religious nut might snap.
Posted by: RJ Schwarz || 12/14/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#5  Or how about liberal nuts that go beserk because Blair and Bush are considered two of the wise men?
Posted by: RJ Schwarz || 12/14/2004 9:44 Comments || Top||

#6  So, who got to be Baby Jesus ?

Mel Gibson ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. || 12/14/2004 11:07 Comments || Top||

#7  Whatever your view of this...um...pop art (turn gracious button off) I think it's sad that destruction of property has become such a common response. If someone disagrees with it, why destroy it? Mock it, condemn it, whatever.

I had the same argument with a friend, whose wild daughter went around parking lots scratching through "support our troops" stickers. Destruction of property isn't the way to go.
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 11:34 Comments || Top||

#8  Is it artistic liscense to portray the moron Bush as one of the Wise Men?
Posted by: john || 12/14/2004 14:33 Comments || Top||

#9  tee hee! you funny john boy
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:52 Comments || Top||

#10  No john, the president is in the Bushitler exhibit. Didn't you get the memo?
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:56 Comments || Top||

#11  I thought he was in the MonkeyBoy the Idiot exhibit? Or was it the Evil Genius Room? Or both? Damn, I get so confused!
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 16:59 Comments || Top||

#12  I'm not arguing artistic license-I'm saying disagreeing with someone doesn't give anyone license to destroy property.
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 17:02 Comments || Top||

#13  No, Bush is in the International War Criminals exhibit!! I got the t-shirt, baby!
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 17:08 Comments || Top||


-Short Attention Span Theater-
Osama Bin Laden Take Note: You Wouldn't Be Safe In Costa Rica.
A startled taxi driver shot and wounded a jokester wearing a plastic mask of the al-Qaeda leader, police said today. Leonel Arias, 47, told police he was playing a practical joke by donning the bin Laden mask, toting his pellet rifle and jumping out to scare drivers on a narrow street in his hometown, Carrizal de Alajuela, about 35 kilometres north of San Jose. Arias had startled several drivers that way yesterday afternoon. But when he jumped out in front of taxi driver Juan Pablo Sandoval, the motorist reached for a gun and shot him twice in the stomach. He was taken to hospital, where his condition was described as stable. "For me and I think for anybody else at a time like that one thinks the worst and so I fired my gun," Sandoval told Channel 7 television. Police declined to detain Sandoval, saying he had believed he was acting in self-defence.
Posted by: God Save The World || 12/14/2004 3:36:23 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I highly suspect the mask had nothing to do with him being shot.
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 15:56 Comments || Top||

#2  Green Card!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 15:56 Comments || Top||

#3  To dress up as someone with a $25M reward on their head dead or alive is to enter the lists of the Darwin Award candidates.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 16:06 Comments || Top||

#4  He did but what any armoed, law abiding citizen would do. Yes!
Posted by: Mac Suirtain || 12/14/2004 16:10 Comments || Top||

#5  Credit to the cops who declined to charge him...
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#6  Osama-bin-idiot is lucky it wasn't two chest shots.
Posted by: Tom || 12/14/2004 20:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Groucho bin Laden -- LOL!
Posted by: VRWconspiracy || 12/14/2004 20:25 Comments || Top||

#8  "What a revolting development this is!"
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 20:55 Comments || Top||


Down Under
Australia Sets Up 1000 Nautical Mile Security Zone Around Coastline
Australia is casting a 1000 nautical mile security zone around the coastline as part of a new maritime plan to counter terrorism and protect shipping, ports and oil rigs from attack. Under the new offshore protection command, the Howard Government will monitor thousands of ships approaching some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world and intercept suspicious vessels. The $4 million revamp of maritime security arises from a taskforce that identified threats from the sea as fears increase around the world of terrorist attacks through less secure ports and on vulnerable oil tankers. Australia has been reviewing and upgrading its port security to match the higher standards at airports, introduced since the terror attacks of September 11.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: God Save The World || 12/14/2004 3:30:35 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Aye mate! Too bad it is only nautical, 1k miles encompases quite a few countries too.
Posted by: Mac Suirtain || 12/14/2004 16:16 Comments || Top||

#2  "This is my line of death. Do not cross my line of death."
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 16:18 Comments || Top||

#3  This is how your Rule Britannia gets started.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:58 Comments || Top||

#4  How can they tell if a ship is suspicious? It wouldn't have twirly mustaches and a monocle, I imagine, so what does one look for? I may want to be suspicious someday, although I'm told I don't look at all like a ship ... and to my shame I've never been able to grow a mustache, not even a pitiful one like Bashir Assad. I'd be willing to invest in a monocle, though, if that's the right thing to do.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 19:41 Comments || Top||

#5  Perhaps we should set up a 12,500 nm security zone.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 19:42 Comments || Top||

#6  TW - wait for menopause....wishes granted may be more than you desired
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 19:45 Comments || Top||

#7  DRINK ALERT!!!!

Don't DO that Frank!!!
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 19:46 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Suspected Militants Bomb Indian State
GAUHATI, India (AP) - Suspected separatist militants launched a series of coordinated bombings Tuesday across India's northeastern state of Assam, killing two people and wounding at least 44, police said. The six attacks - two were bombs hidden in bicycle bags, three were grenade attacks and another was a bomb set off outside a railway station - were in Gauhati, the capital of Assam, and other towns in the state...Police have not said who they suspect in the string of Tuesday bombings, but they suspect the United Liberation Front of Asom, or ULFA, in the Monday attacks. ULFA, a guerrilla group that has been seeking an independent homeland in Assam since 1979, is the largest of the region's militant groups. Last week, ULFA rejected an invitation by the federal government for unconditional peace talks, saying the offer did not mention its main demand of sovereignty. At least 10,000 people, mostly civilians, have died in fighting in the past 15 years between the government and the rebels of ULFA and another separatist group, the National Democratic Front of Boroland. Assam's state government offered a peace deal to both groups in September. The ULFA rejected the peace overtures, while NDFB responded with a cease-fire offer.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 3:14:10 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:


Home Front: Tech
ZIRCONIC / NEBULA
ZIRCONIC is a security channel behind the traditional BYEMAN compartments which reportedly contains stealth satellite programs such as MISTY (AFP-731) and PROWLER. NEBULA is the program name covering work on the general concept and technology of stealthy satellites.
Much debate has developed within Congress in response to the expensive spy satellite program currently being built by the United States. On Wednesday, December 8, Senator John D. Rockefeller (D-W.VA.) broke what had been an intense internal debate by expressing his belief that the program is "totally unjustified and very wasteful and dangerous to national security." Three Democratic senators-- Carl M. Levin (MI); Richard Durbin (IL); and Ron Wyden (OR)-- joined him in voicing a lack of confidence in the program; and it is reported that some Republican lawmakers also share their concerns.
So this is the program they were complaining about
The spy satellites, which reportedly employ technology similar to that used on the B-2 bomber and the F-117A fighter, are designed to orbit undetected in an attempt to cloak American surveillance of other nations. As a result, countries that draw particular attention, notably Iran and North Korea, will thus be unable to determine when American satellites are overhead. Consequently, they will be unable to plan accordingly, making their developments subject to unquantifiable scrutiny.
Most of the opposition that has surfaced is rooted in the satellite program's cost, which has reportedly doubled—from $5 billion to $9.5 billion.
Sounds like a tough task. The body of the satellite would be the easy part to shield from radar, but you have to consider optical searches. If you paint it black, it'll fry from absorbed heat from sunlight. The antennas to send the data back to earth would also be a radar headache.
Critics also claim, however, that the satellite's capabilities are irrelevant since today most countries that are surreptitiously pursuing illicit weapons are hiding them underground. Nevertheless, the program has survived (despite Senate efforts to terminate it in the last two years) with strong support from Porter Goss, the new CIA chief, and his predecessor, George Tenet.
The satellite, funded under a classified program known as Misty, was first revealed by Jeffrey T. Richelson in his 2001 book "The Wizards of Langley: Inside the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology." Richelson claimed that the first craft was launched on March 1, 1990 from the space shuttle Atlantis.
Senators Rockefeller, Levin, Wyden and Durbin objected to an item in the classified schedule of authorizations that provided for continued funding of a major acquisition program that they believed is unnecessary and the cost of which they believe is unjustified. They believe that the funds for this item should be expended on other intelligence programs that will make a surer and greater contribution to national security. For this reason, which is more fully explained in the classified record of the conference, they have not signed the conference report.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 3:07:15 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hell what's all the fuss, just call it Cosmos eleventeen or an advanced Earth Resources Surveyor and let it go.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 15:40 Comments || Top||

#2  Oh they've already started launching.... never mind. :) Problem is having a good cover story for the launch. This was something the shuttle was good for. Polar Orbit? Sure just exploring the envelope of the spacecraft!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 15:43 Comments || Top||

#3  Just deploy it in tandem with "Project Shiny Things" to deflect attention...
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 15:43 Comments || Top||

#4  I really can't see how to hide the launch if it's using conventional optics... we're talking the HST pointed at earth basically. Okay, maybe you can't hide the vehicle during launch... maybe it's good enough to orbit and hide. Yikes!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:03 Comments || Top||

#5  ZIRCONIC is a bit of a give away.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 16:25 Comments || Top||

#6  The Senators' objections centered around the fact that none of the satellite's components were built in their states and that the prime contractor's PAC overlooked their various funding receptacles.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#7  phil_b I think you're confusing this with RUBY_GENTRY.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 17:08 Comments || Top||

#8  They ought to send up a giant balloon shaped like a scary ray gun, with letters on it saying "Zionist-American Death Ray Mk I".

Just let people spend their time freaking out over that and do the real work in the meantime.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 12/14/2004 17:18 Comments || Top||

#9  WTF! The senators apparently haven't figured out that if a program is classified YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL THE PRESS ABOUT IT! Cause if you do, it's no longer classified. There, now that really wasn't such a hard concept, was it?
Posted by: AJackson || 12/14/2004 17:20 Comments || Top||

#10  Shipman, Q: What is the best place to hide a tree?
A: In a forest.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 17:30 Comments || Top||

#11  Now I understand all these latest reports about new low albedo objects discovered in the Kuiper Belt and the Oort cloud...... Zirconix you said ???
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 17:36 Comments || Top||

#12  The antennas to send the data back to earth would also be a radar headache.

Lasers. No antennas needed, just little lenses.

As for the Senators -- *sigh* is it really that hard to see when treason applies?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 18:06 Comments || Top||

#13  I heard Jed Babbin say on the John Batchelor Show last night that these disclosure by Rockefeller et al. had resulted in a criminal referral to the DOJ. I hope he's right. Rockefeller is the oiliest Senator our there.
Posted by: Tibor || 12/14/2004 18:16 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
Kyoto not the way to go: an international round-up
Species come and go — and so do we
By Mark Steyn

Kyoto Protocol could damage Asia: report

TCS COP 10 Coverage: Global Warming Extremists on the Run

Study Claiming Rapid Arctic Ice Melt Refuted at Climate Summit

'Ignore Global Warming,' Says Former Greenpeace Member
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 3:02:41 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [9 views] Top|| File under:

#1  What's striking is how even the sceptics buy into the myths about 'global warming'. One is rising CO2 levels cause warming. I've looked at the evidence. Its pretty conclusive, changing CO2 levels are a result of climate changes. In fact I am gravitating toward the heretical notion that CO2 levels are part of a feedback mechanism that regulates climate, i.e. rising CO2 levels cause climate cooling.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 15:58 Comments || Top||

#2  Why not! It's Ghaia's way of saying give me a fan.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 17:11 Comments || Top||

#3  Nuclear power. I'd bet that even the greenieboppers will get behind that one soon. What the f*** are we waiting for?
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:13 Comments || Top||


Europe
France pulls plug on Hezbollah TV station
France's highest administrative court has banned a TV station on the grounds that it is inciting racial hatred. The Council of State ordered France-based satellite company Eutelsat to stop transmitting Lebanese station al-Manar within 48 hours.
Hey! My dissent is being crushed! I blame John Ashkkkroft Alberto Gonzales France.
The Council cited a 23 November broadcast in which a speaker accused Israel of deliberately disseminating Aids in Arab nations.
Providing a fig leaf for ol' Yasser.
It said the channel had shown itself incapable of conforming to French law. Al-Manar had been authorised to continue broadcasting in Europe by France's media watchdog after signing an undertaking not to incite hatred or violence. But on 2 December French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin called for the station to be taken off air for its "anti-Semitic" content "incompatible with French values". The station, backed by the Lebanon's Iranian-sponsored Islamist movement Hezbollah, can be beamed to France on at least two non-French satellites, over which the court has no jurisdiction. Last week, Lebanese officials warned measures against the channel could spark retaliatory sanctions on French media outlets in Lebanon. Israel has previously congratulated France for moving against al-Manar.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 2:54:44 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It looks like the Phrench know how to react when there is danger in their own backyard. ((Who gives a crap if the U.S. is attacked? We know how to defend ourselves.)) This politically incorrect action of taking down of a terrorist promoting TV feed is unbecoming of the spineless Phrench. Where is CAIR or Amnesia International on this incitement against the pagan Moooselimbs?

I wonder if the MSM/LLL's will report this. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Posted by: Poison Reverse || 12/14/2004 9:41 Comments || Top||

#2  The API and UPI reported that the French Government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "run" to "hide." The only two higher levels in France are "surrender" and "collaborate."
The elevated alert level was precipitated by the recent fire which destroyed one of their White Flag factories, effectively disabling their Military.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 12/14/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||

#3  The next French Military victory is assured - thru mass circumcision.
Posted by: Wo || 12/14/2004 14:07 Comments || Top||

#4  DB-fine form today!
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 14:10 Comments || Top||

#5  Jules: I don't know who originated this it was sent to me without an author but seemed appropriate. I can't take credit for it but wish I could.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 12/14/2004 15:25 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
Foreign Ministry Spokesman Blasts U.S. Psychological Campaign
Pyongyang, December 13 (KCNA) -- A spokesman for the DPRK Foreign Ministry gave the following answer to a question put by KCNA Monday as regards the U.S. evermore undisguised psychological operation aimed at a regime change in the DPRK:
Recently the U.S. let reptile media and riff-raffs spread the sheer lie that portraits of leader Kim Jong Il are no longer displayed in the DPRK. As this smear campaign proved futile, they floated sheer misinformation that "there is confusion within its leadership" and "at least 130 army general officers and high-ranking officials deserted their units in the wake of the defection of ordinary people." All this was intended to give impression that a sort of dramatic crisis has occurred in the DPRK. The U.S. false propaganda and psychological operation aimed to slander the DPRK and finally realize a regime change there have, in actuality, gone beyond the tolerance limit.

The U.S. seems to foolishly think that its mean psychological operation works on the DPRK and it has done something in its bid to tarnish the image of the DPRK and bring down its political system. However, few would be taken in by such trick of those who are so ignorant as to know north Korea as a peninsula.
We consider it mean to react to every plot-breeding operation orchestrated by the U.S. for its despicable and clumsy nature. Now that the U.S. is trying to shake the backbone of the DPRK, not content with hurling mud at it, the DPRK is compelled to say something to the U.S.

The present situation makes us deplore the fact that the U.S.administration has only those politicians who are utterly ignorant of the DPRK to handle its Korean policy. As for the DPRK, all its servicepersons and people are devoting themselves to accomplish the cause of socialism confident of victory and all are out in a drive to build a great prosperous powerful nation thanks to the Songun politics energetically pursued by Kim Jong Il. Quite contrary to what the U.S. claimed, not even a button of a general officer's uniform, to say nothing of more than a hundred of general officers, has ever been found across the border. We do not know such a word as "defection".

There may be some illegal border trespassers who crossed the border in violation of the law now in force in the DPRK, unable to live in their native land any longer because of their illicit acts and crimes. But their number is so small that there is no need to take them into account. The U.S., however, termed those criminals as "defectors," asserting that they have crossed the border for political reasons, opposed to its system, and kicked up a row over its human rights issue after overstating their number.

The Bush administration, right after its emergence, did not hesitate to designate the DPRK as part of an "axis of evil", not hiding its inveterate hostility toward its political system. It was none other than the Bush administration which listed the DPRK as a target of a preemptive nuclear attack and put PSI in force, thus escalating its moves to isolate and blockade it. Finding it impossible to topple the DPRK by force as it has a powerful nuclear deterrent force, the U.S. faked up the "North Korean Human Rights Act" and adopted it as its policy to realize a regime change in it. It has spread sheer lies through such operation to destabilize its society as massively smuggling transistors and increasing the hours of broadcasting of Voice of Free Asia. It is, however, seriously mistaken.

The system in the DPRK is politically stable and is as firm as a rock. It is not such a weak system as those in other parts of this planet that were brought down through Rose and Chestnut Revolutions. Nothing reasonable can be heard from wicked persons. The Bush administration is free to wag its tongue till the cows come home. No matter how noisily the U.S. may cry out we will take it as no more than a dog's barking at a moon. The smear campaign on the part of the hostile forces aimed at the collapse of the system in the DPRK is nothing but a desperate last-ditch effort to destroy the system under which the leader, the party and the popular masses form a harmonious whole. It is as foolish an act as trying to get the sun eclipsed by a palm. The U.S. frantic smear campaign against the DPRK reminds us of an eve of its aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq. This heightens our vigilance. The hatred of the army and people of the DPRK towards the U.S. is rapidly mounting due to its escalation of the smear campaign to bring down the political system in the DPRK.

Under this situation the DPRK is compelled to seriously reconsider its participation in the talks with the U.S., a party extremely disgusting and hateful. What is clear is that only strength of justice will work on the U.S. as it stoops to any despicable method to destroy its dialogue partner while paying lip-service to "dialogue." It is the mettle of the army and people of the DPRK not to allow anyone to defile or disregard the ideology and system chosen by the Korean people themselves.

References to Songun - 1
References to Kim Jong Il - 2
No Dear Leader, Jung, Army-based policy or sea of fire. Sad, and it got off to such a good start with "reptile media". I give it a 4.5.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 2:52:30 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [12 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Scrappleface has some competition I see!

Selected quotes:

"However, few would be taken in by such trick of those who are so ignorant as to know north Korea as a peninsula." Count me ignorant...it IS, isn't it?? (ok, technically it's the top 1/2 of a Peninsula)

"We do not know such a word as "defection". Which explains why no one has ever "defected"! I wonder if they know such a word as "SCREWED"?

"As for the DPRK, all its servicepersons and people are devoting themselves to accomplish the cause of socialism confident of victory and all are out in a drive to build a great prosperous powerful nation" We're not succeeding...but we're devoted!!

"The system in the DPRK is politically stable and is as firm as a rock. It is not such a weak system as those in other parts of this planet that were brought down through Rose and Chestnut Revolutions." I HATE those revolutions!

"...a desperate last-ditch effort to destroy the system under which the leader, the party and the popular masses form a harmonious whole." And as long as we keep machine guns trained on them they REMAIN "a harmonious whole".
Posted by: Justrand || 12/14/2004 15:21 Comments || Top||

#2  ...those who are so ignorant as to know north Korea as a peninsula.

Errrrrrrrrr...so what is it, Beavis? An isthmus? A promentary? A totalitarian shithole of starving people ruled by an insane maniac?
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 15:26 Comments || Top||

#3  The hatred of the army and people of the DPRK towards the U.S. is rapidly mounting

Heh heh heh. He said mount.
Posted by: Beavis || 12/14/2004 15:49 Comments || Top||

#4  Mmmmmmmmm chestnuts!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 15:58 Comments || Top||

#5  The present situation makes us deplore the fact that the U.S.administration has only those politicians who are utterly ignorant of the DPRK to handle its Korean policy.

We want Madeline! And Bill! And Jimmah! They were our buddies!
Good times, good times...
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 15:59 Comments || Top||

#6  Flacid. My daughter's guinea pig talks better trash.
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 12/14/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#7  The U.S. seems to foolishly think that its mean psychological operation works on the DPRK and it has done something in its bid to tarnish the image of the DPRK and bring down its political system.

They have a point. It is virtually impossible to tarnish the image of the DPRK. (The organic contents of a honeybucket are very difficult to tarnish.)
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 16:19 Comments || Top||

#8  "The U.S. seems to foolishly think that its mean psychological operation works on the DPRK ..."

Waaah! They're being mean to me - make them stop!
Posted by: Xbalanke || 12/14/2004 16:19 Comments || Top||

#9  urgh! ...flaccid. Anyway...it still sukced.
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 12/14/2004 16:55 Comments || Top||

#10  That "reptile media" phrase is a keeper, however.
Overall, it just needs more juche.
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 22:36 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Papua New Guinea 'set to implode'
Papua New Guinea is heading towards economic and social collapse and could be overrun by criminals, a new Australian report warns. The Australian Strategic Policy Institute called for the global community to radically increase the amount of aid given to the country.
Send money! Send more money! And...can we have a raise in our allowance? Or we'll start breaking stuff...
It said Australia should take over some aspects of government. The Australian Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, is heading to Papua New Guinea for bilateral meetings. The report warns that if Papua New Guinea's weaknesses are allowed to continue, the country could fall "off a cliff into full-scale state failure". The central government's authority would collapse and criminals would dominate the economy, it says. This gloomy assessment says serious decline is already well under way.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 2:41:51 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I just went and looked at a map of the region. Seems like we have a island divided into New Guinea, belonging to our "friends" the Indonesians, and Papua New Guinea, soon to be hell-hole. There a good reason for this? I must have missed this in class.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 11:22 Comments || Top||

#2  ima think we need send sailor man john fromm back with goodies
Posted by: half || 12/14/2004 14:14 Comments || Top||

#3  I don't know if it's a good reason, but it has to do with which European colonial power (Dutch and Brits) grabbed which part of the island.

For some reason, colonial borders are sacrosanct once the colonists leave. After the Europeans tore Africa apart, then fled, no one even considered trying to set up states on ethnic communities rather than which army had conqured the area.

The same here.
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 15:09 Comments || Top||


Europe
Spaniards 'did not bow to terror'
Spain's prime minister has rejected claims that his election victory was the result of voters bowing to terror in the wake of the Madrid bombings.
"No, no! Certainly not!"
The Socialist Party of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero was elected three days after the train bombs killed 191. Mr Zapatero told a parliamentary commission investigating the 11 March attacks that Spaniards had never submitted to terrorist violence.
"Us Spaniards is tough! We'd never do dat!"
It is the first time a prime minister has appeared before such a commission. He was grilled for more than four hours by members of the conservative opposition Popular Party (PP) which, under Jose Maria Aznar, was in power at the time of the attacks. Mr Zapatero told the commission:
* Mr Aznar had increased the risk of attack by Islamic terrorists by supporting the war on Iraq and such a threat was "clearly underestimated"

* the attacks were exclusively planned and carried out by the same brand of radical Islamic terrorism behind 11 September in the US and subsequent attacks in Bali, Istanbul and Casablanca

* claims that militant Basque separatists Eta were to blame was "a massive deception" by Mr Aznar

* the outgoing PP administration wiped computers of information before they left - particularly material relating to the 11 March attacks

* the Socialists were not behind protest rallies that took place outside PP buildings after the attacks.
Mr Aznar faced the commission two weeks ago. On Monday, Mr Zapatero strongly denied claims that his party had tried to gain political ground from the attacks and he defended the decision made by Spanish voters. At the time of the attacks, senior US Republicans said Spain had succumbed to terrorist threats by ousting Mr Aznar's government. But Mr Zapatero said Spain had endured 30 years of terror under Eta, so why would his countrymen weaken after the bloodshed of the train bombings.
Because of the turbans? Because of the fearsome way they roll their eyes? Because of the blood-curdling threats?
"You did not listen to the Spanish people during the war in Iraq and afterwards the people stopped listening to you and stopped trusting you," he told members of the Popular Party at the hearing. Mr Zapatero withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq soon after taking office. A special side room has been reserved at the hearing for their families, many of whom have accused Spain's politicians of using this parliamentary inquiry more as a political football than as a means of finding out the truth. The parliamentary investigation into the attacks is set to close later this week after four months of hearings. Nineteen people have already been formally charged in connection with the case.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 2:38:28 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [12 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Mr Aznar had increased the risk of attack by Islamic terrorists by supporting the war on Iraq

This statement and Zapatero's withdrawal from Iraq does in fact mean that Spain bowed to terror. At least a sizable majority did. Explain it away anyway you want, Zappy.
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 3:03 Comments || Top||

#2  Spain democraticly bowed to terror by electing Zapetero but it did bow to terror.

So Zappy boy when the terrorists come knocking from now on. Which they have already since your election, it's on on your head.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 3:49 Comments || Top||

#3  It's debatable. Zapatero may have been elected anyway, even if there had been no bombing. But I think he missed a great opportunity to KEEP the troops in Iraq. Once he was elected he should have told the Spanish people and the world that he'd fully intended to withdraw the troops, but after the Madrid massacre he'd decided that would mean giving in to terror.

Well, we can dream.
Posted by: Bryan || 12/14/2004 4:20 Comments || Top||

#4  I thought I read that the Madrid bombings were planned from before the Iraq war, in which case Mr. Z has the wrong analysis of the problem. Think Al Andalus.
Posted by: HV || 12/14/2004 5:44 Comments || Top||

#5  Excuses, excuses. No matter, the bottom line remains the same: the terrorists struck, and Spain bugged out.
Posted by: Dave D. || 12/14/2004 5:47 Comments || Top||

#6  Not only did they all bow , but whilst they were touching their toes they appied a liberal amount of lube ....
Posted by: MacNails || 12/14/2004 6:31 Comments || Top||

#7  Zappy had troop withdrawal as part of his campaign. As far as ETA-terror, I don't recall them blowing up crowded trains or targeting large numbers of people.
Posted by: Pappy || 12/14/2004 7:56 Comments || Top||

#8  a bow is a bend at the waist, what they did was more of an "all-fours" kinda thing
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:10 Comments || Top||

#9  a bow is a bend at the waist, what they did was more of an "all-fours" kinda thing

It's called "kowtow"
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 12/14/2004 8:32 Comments || Top||

#10  thank you Captain Obvious
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:44 Comments || Top||

#11  You are welcome, Commander Clueless.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 12/14/2004 8:49 Comments || Top||

#12  As Tony Blair is so keen on solving the "Israel-Palestine" conflict, I suggest he can practice on a case which is much closer to home.
Spain should be liberated and returned to moslem rule. After all it was part of the Khalifat and so "rightfully" belongs to the Ummah.
By returning Spain to the Moslems we catch two birds with one stone. First we (er.. I mean Tony)buy the Arab's gratitude forever, and second and no less important, we get rid of the cowardly Zappi.
How's that as a novel plan for advancing worldly peace and harmony ?? :)
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 8:54 Comments || Top||

#13  Zippy's bought and paid for. The land will be returned to the ummah on the installment plan.
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 8:59 Comments || Top||

#14  They didn't? News to me...
Posted by: Ptah || 12/14/2004 9:08 Comments || Top||

#15  Doubtful the Cid gets convinced in his grave.
Posted by: Wo || 12/14/2004 9:52 Comments || Top||

#16  They didn't bow - they just grabbed their ankles.
Posted by: Sloting Gronter5111 || 12/14/2004 9:54 Comments || Top||

#17  sounds like the Spaniards are waking up to their mistake. That recent VDH article comes to mind.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:09 Comments || Top||

#18  CiD? Not me, nor OSS.
Posted by: Col Flagg || 12/14/2004 11:33 Comments || Top||

#19  Spain’s prime minister has rejected claims that his election victory was the result of voters bowing to terror in the wake of the Madrid bombings.

"Watch Mr. Zapatero's nose grow, boys and girls..."
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 11:34 Comments || Top||

#20  "Mr Aznar had increased the risk of attack by Islamic terrorists by supporting the war on Iraq and such a threat was "clearly underestimated..."

The Spanish people are of course free to vote for whom they wish. It isn't the vote per se that is the "bowing; it is the philosphy behind the statement above, so popular in Spain, that is the bowing. It is an exact wording of the idea: "we asked for it". There is no such thing as 'asking for terror'. And so the void between Euro and American foreign policy philosophies grows to gargantuan dimensions...
Posted by: Jules 187 || 12/14/2004 11:47 Comments || Top||

#21  The Spaniards didn't bow. They were just groveling. The shame will last a long time.
Posted by: Mark Z. || 12/14/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#22  EoZ - Marbella's already been colonized by the Saudis. I'd propose that Bambi/Zappy offer Andalucia as an opening gambit, with some beachfront in the Costa del Sol.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:26 Comments || Top||

#23  It sounds as if some of the Spaniards are not fond of Zapetero having made them the punchline to many jokes about cowardice, stupidity, and incompetence. Too bad. By voting for Zapetero, they put an end to all the jokes about Poles in general and the Italian miiltary by providing a better target. When compared to Italy and Poland now, Spain looks pretty lame.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 16:32 Comments || Top||

#24  Lex,
your proposition sounds great.
I accept. Meanwhile we can both grow rich
by selling the spaniards leather bound copies of the Kuran and silk embroidered bourkas for the women.
How about it ?
Posted by: EoZ || 12/14/2004 17:10 Comments || Top||

#25  Cool. Hire some of Bambi's associates to hawk them while strolling up and down the beach. Or maybe while holding wash towels in the men's room at the casinos.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:11 Comments || Top||


Politicus: Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties
Politicus: Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties
I'll bet he has a design. And we're in one little corner but paying the bills.
Via Lucianne:
In the American mind-set, there's nearly a lifetime to go - think Super Bowl and, maybe, Iraq's elections in the meanwhile - before George W. Bush comes to Europe in late February to make things trans-Atlantically whole and wonderful again. But European markers are coming down already. In London, the talk in Downing Street runs in the direction of Bush "doing something (!) substantive about the Israeli-Palestinian situation" if he wants to make good on the reaching-out-to-Europe notions that the administration uses to describe his trip.

In Berlin, the Germans clearly want better relations, but have made sealing the "fissures" and "breaches" more complicated by clamoring to sell arms to China and insisting last week that they require a permanent UN Security Council seat with veto power, like the big fellas. This, although a UN panel on reforming the Council does not recommend a German veto, and the Bush administration would likely choke on the idea.

The French, theoretically the ally with the furthest to go in improving ties with Bush administration, (Colin Powell describes the White House as specifically hoping to "mend" the relationship) have smartly laid out through a speech by Jacques Chirac a blueprint of where they want to be positioned in terms of the United States. The speech was made last month and has gotten only marginal attention. This is curious in the view of an aide to a European prime minister because he considers that Chirac was trying to explain for the first time how his multipolar view of the view of the world can be compatible with good relations between the United States and Europe.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: anonymous2U || 12/14/2004 2:27:26 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [16 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "A traveler from Europe was recently asked in Washington how the Bush administration might best make a gesture toward Europe for delivery before March."

I know exactly the gesture I'd use.
Posted by: Dave D. || 12/14/2004 6:14 Comments || Top||

#2  "Talk to the hand."
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 8:10 Comments || Top||

#3  EU = one seat on security council
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:23 Comments || Top||

#4  In London, the talk in Downing Street runs in the direction of Bush "doing something (!) substantive about the Israeli-Palestinian situation" if he wants to make good on the reaching-out-to-Europe notions that the administration uses to describe his trip

As usual, the Brits try to impress their Euro-colleagues and the Whining arabs by trying to have the US impose impossible things on Israel.
The self serving bastard Blair is trying to make a scapegoat out of the only true democracy in the ME.
It's high time the British internalize the fact that their age-old method of divide and conquer and the old colonial style of meddling in the internal afairs of other countries, will not work here.
Dubia is too smart to swallow the "European Hook"
While he owes a lot to Blair for unfailingly standing by his side in the WOT, Dubia realizes that kow-towing to the Arabs will earn him nothing but disdain and back-stabbing from the Arabs(like he got from the islamoid government of Turkey at a time of dire need).

Neverthless, I expect some token speeches and small gestures (mainly verbal) about US-EU unity and friendship... Blah, Blah, Blah, just enough to keep the appearance of harmony.
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 8:43 Comments || Top||

#5  In London, the talk in Downing Street runs in the direction of Bush "doing something (!) substantive about the Israeli-Palestinian situation" if he wants to make good on the reaching-out-to-Europe notions that the administration uses to describe his trip.

I imagine that cluster-bombing terrorist camps in the PA would not go over well with the Europeans.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 8:52 Comments || Top||

#6  Perhaps Mr. Chirac would do better if he consulted with his European and U.S. allies before "rolling out" anything -- especially a design for European-U.S. ties. Right now he has all the credibility of a marriage counselor going through a bitter divorce.
Posted by: Tom || 12/14/2004 9:05 Comments || Top||

#7  Robert,
As a second thought, may I suggest American financing of the "Arafat Mausoleum" that will be built on the ruins of the "Tour D'Eiffel" in Paris.
The Mausoleum will also include a "University of international terror" , the "Institute for comparative Dhimmitude studies", and "L'Ecolle De Assassin".
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:06 Comments || Top||

#8  Wake me when there's talk in France and Germany on what they can do to make up to the US.
Posted by: Spot || 12/14/2004 9:12 Comments || Top||

#9  Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties
link
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:53 Comments || Top||

#10  Well, maybe we can start with pulling the troops out of Germany.....
I'm sure France will be willing to defend them with their "multipolar" view of the world.
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 12:30 Comments || Top||

#11  Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties

link
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:53 Comments || Top||

#12  2b - you're on a roll, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:05 Comments || Top||

#13  Chirac's desperate. A joke at home, ignored abroad, and quite possibly soon to be implicated in OFF as his pal Maugein's kickbacks become clear.

Nothing to see here, move along please
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||

#14  This is a common meme (our having to ask for forgiveness) among the talking head lefties. No, France owes us for our not meddling at UN re its ICoast adventure. France owes us for our not kicking it in the nuts for its meddling in Iraq when it said there should be a peace conference with all legit Iraqi groups represented. Of course, at the top of the legit group is Sadr and the beheaders. France owes us for its role in UNSCAM. MSM has to protect it, of course. On top of that, remember French officialdom/intellectuals/media all (well, how about 90%?) fervently believe the US needs to be cut down to size and punished over successes in Afghanistan and Iraq since we didn't ask nicely first. Get it folks? Been that way since De Gaulle withdrew France from Nato (a huge pain) which also meant a move to Brussels for new Nato HQ (a manageable pain)
W, where the relationship works, fine. Where it doesn't, tell 'em to go eat escargot.
Posted by: chicago mike || 12/14/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#15  lol 2b!
Posted by: half || 12/14/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#16  I suugest a pair of US-made handcuffs in the wrists of Chirac. That would be a strong US-European tie.
Posted by: JFM || 12/14/2004 15:24 Comments || Top||

#17  Bush should be visiting the more important European countries: Italy, Poland, Hungary, (depending on what happens in the elections - Ukraine), and the UK. Don't waste time on hostile states like France, Germany, and Spain.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 17:27 Comments || Top||

#18  Frank G, the only way that the EU should have a seat on the security council is if they admit Russia. Then we could sit back and watch France, the UK, Russia and the wannabe Germany argue about who, how, why, and what to do.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 17:31 Comments || Top||

#19  Agreed that Bush's first stop should be Poland. Preferably Krakow or some other historic place close to the Ukrainian border.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:44 Comments || Top||

#20  Lex, that doesn't work geographically. How 'bout if Bush goes there last, but stays the longest, perhaps at the Polish version of The Ranch? And he probably shouldn't eat with Chiraq -- you can never tell what might end up in the soup.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 20:13 Comments || Top||

#21  RWV - that was my intent - ONLY one seat for all EU countries
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 20:17 Comments || Top||

#22  you can never tell what might end up in the soup.

dioxin?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 20:39 Comments || Top||

#23  Snails, truffles, dioxin... you never know. Those frogs will serve almost anything with a wine or cream sauce.
Posted by: Tom || 12/14/2004 20:54 Comments || Top||

#24  Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties link

Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#25  Chirac rolls out design for U.S.-European ties link

Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
King-sized row over royal car in starving country
Showing my ignorance, hope I got this in the correct part:

Posting because of the new players on the scene:
HE IS Africa's last absolute monarch - a man whose pursuit of lavish tastes as his people face food shortages and AIDS has made him no stranger to controversy. Now Swaziland's King Mswati III is at the centre of a new row after spending more than £250,000 on a luxury car.
I've got a soft spot for King Mswati III, because he forbade the ladies of Swaziland to wear pants. But that's just my personal perversion preference...
King Mswati - one of some 300 children of the late King Sobhuza, who had 125 wives - paid more than 150 million emalangeni (£260,000) last week for the DaimlerChrysler Maybach 62, one of only four such vehicles sold in southern Africa. Its extras include a television, DVD player, 21-speaker surround sound system, refrigerator, cordless telephone, heated steering wheel, interior pollen and dust filter, golf club set and sterling silver champagne flutes. The other three vehicles were sold to three of South Africa's new breed of black business oligarchs, Cyril Ramaphosa, Tokyo Sexwale and Patrice Mosepe.
--SNIP--
Tokyo Sexwale? Somebody named his child TOKYO SEXWALE? Good Gawd! Is there no limit to the cruelty of some people? People should be required to have a license to have children, and one of the requirements should be an agreement not to name their children "Tokyo Sexwale" or any variant thereof.
Posted by: anonymous2U || 12/14/2004 2:10:47 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [13 views] Top|| File under:

#1  King Mswati Bling-Bling III
Posted by: MacNails || 12/14/2004 6:33 Comments || Top||

#2  How long before King Mswati starts sending spam to help cover the cost of his new ride? "My friend I reach out to you in strictest confidence...."
Posted by: IG-88 || 12/14/2004 8:18 Comments || Top||

#3  Dudes got to have a sweet ride if he's gonna be a player.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 8:19 Comments || Top||

#4  Homes, howse ya gonna get titty if ya can't out ditty the P. Ditty.
Posted by: ed || 12/14/2004 8:37 Comments || Top||

#5  I thik the grating thing is the UNICEF "feed the children" bumper sticker, at least for me...
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:45 Comments || Top||

#6  Tokyo Sexwale? Sounds like he'd know a bit about pimped out rides.
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 9:06 Comments || Top||

#7  And a couple of days ago, we posted here the railings of a wanker who complained about how all the starving people were the West's fault.
Posted by: Ptah || 12/14/2004 9:07 Comments || Top||

#8  Dudes got to have a sweet ride if he's gonna be a player.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
Posted by: Raj || 12/14/2004 13:11 Comments || Top||

#9  Yes, I'm thinking "Bangkok Sexwale" has a much nicer ring to it.
Posted by: Dar || 12/14/2004 15:27 Comments || Top||

#10  LOL Frank! Missed that the first 3 times thru...
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:53 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Economy
Canny Brits cashing in on weakened dollar
Bulldog & Peter, (and JFM) - Pool your money, guys and come to Florida! And then we can Welcome You Home!
Gotta make a stop in DC too...
Thousands of Britons are cashing in on the weakness of the dollar by snapping up a host of cheap goods in the United States. Property agents in Florida say that the dollar's price is now so low that houses are devaluing by the day and the market cannot meet the increased demand from Britain. Analysts say that American diamonds, cars, clothes, electrical goods and DVD's are all excellent value for Britons this Christmas and consumers are making the most of the favourable exchange rate. With the dollar expected to hit two for the pound in the New Year, many people in Britain have decided to sell up in traditional holiday hotspots like Spain and France and buy in the US.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: anonymous2U || 12/14/2004 2:04:10 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Lock up your daughters the Englishmen cometh.. How much for the little girl? How much for the women? I want to buy your women. The little girl, your daughters... sell them to me. Sell me your children.
Posted by: Howard UK || 12/14/2004 4:31 Comments || Top||

#2  Before leaving check the murder rate in Miami. However, remember, you're in America. Guns are cheap and you can personally remove anyone in your home or hotel room who has no business being there. Self defense is never denied [Does not apply in the State of New York].
Posted by: Don || 12/14/2004 8:52 Comments || Top||

#3  Lol, Howard. (saw Blues Brothers just last weekend; love that scene;-)
Posted by: Spot || 12/14/2004 9:18 Comments || Top||

#4  Best chance for Britons to reestablish the Empire :)
Posted by: Elder of Zion || 12/14/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Small overseas investors buying Florida property sight unseen? Methinks the dollar has hit bottom. Time to buy dollars.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:35 Comments || Top||

#6  I have a small piece of fine Florida swampland real estate for sale (just watch out for the alligators).

Serious investors only.
Posted by: john || 12/14/2004 15:25 Comments || Top||

#7  Yoo hoo, Mark Espinola! Have I got a trading strategy for you! Buy Florida REITS and short the euro.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:34 Comments || Top||

#8  Lock up your daughters the Englishmen cometh
Most of the English women I met in Germany were there because the men in Britian were English.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 15:57 Comments || Top||

#9  Steve, wouldn't traveling to Scotland or Wales have been more convenient?
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:25 Comments || Top||

#10  wouldn't traveling to Scotland or Wales have been more convenient?

We encourage a certain type of malcontent to relocate to the far side of the channel - the body hair slows them down in the water if they try to return.
Posted by: Joe B || 12/14/2004 17:41 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
MEMRI: Iraqi Elections
Posted by: Mac Suirtain || 12/14/2004 16:14 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Analysis: U.S. Eyes Suspected Insurgents In Syria
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 15:24 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Latakia Falls Into Med"
Posted by: Floting Slang5198 || 12/14/2004 15:46 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Politix
Boxer foams at the mouth again
Sen. Barbara Boxer warned Monday that Americans "should feel concerned" about the administration's "very bad job of vetting" Bernard Kerik,
as opposed the the sucessful vetting of Bill Clinton
who withdrew as President Bush's nominee to head the Department of Homeland Security last week within days of his selection because of questions about his career and personal life.

"They're not doing their job over there," Boxer, D-Calif., said of the White House in reaction to the embarrassing developments over Kerik, whose troubles included a failure to disclose immigration problems and pay taxes on a family nanny -- and may involve more serious published allegations of extramarital affairs and improper gifts from supporters.
Slick Willie never do these things

Boxer, speaking foaming at a wide-ranging press conference Monday in San Francisco, also said she supported calls for federal legislation to stiffen drug testing in major league baseball if its leaders didn't act to do so in the wake of the grand jury revelations in the BALCO steroids case. The senator also said she thought Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's first-year performance was positive in some areas and disappointing in others.

But Boxer, who was re-elected last month to a third term, was most critical of the Bush administration on a variety of issues from the flawed nomination of Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's handling of the war in Iraq.
"We still don't know why they hate us!"

The senator said Kerik's failure to disclose his problems were "a terrible reflection on this man, who was such a hero during 9/11." But she added the administration apparently did "a very bad job of vetting; the American people should be concerned."
Didn't we use the same people who vetted Dean and Frenchy?
Boxer also called for Rumsfeld "to move on"
Move On is your bag
in light of last week's exchange with soldiers in Kuwait who were concerned about being inadequately armed for war. Rumsfeld told the troops that "you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want."

"I'm not formally calling on him to step down," she said, lied but "it speaks reams about this president, that he would keep Rumsfeld on, given the disastrous circumstances" including "lack of equipment and the refusal of Rumsfeld to admit that, and then kind of make excuses for it."
"After all we voted for massive defense funding....er no..."
Among the issues Boxer spoke to:

-- On the BALCO scandal, she said the use of steroids among professional athletes had resulted in a "dismembering of our heroes" in the sports world. She called for tougher legal remedies on those who create and distribute the drugs, saying "we should throw the book at these people," but she said athletes who take them "are clearly breaking the law as well."

The Chronicle Comical recently reported that a review of grand jury transcripts showed that Yankees star Jason Giambi admitted taking steroids and Giants slugger Barry Bonds took substances that he believed were a balm for arthritis pain and flaxseed oil, but prosecutors say they matched the properties of steroids created by the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative.

Boxer said she agreed with Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that Congress might have to intervene if baseball owners and players did not require more sophisticated and regular steroid testing of athletes.

"I don't like to see Congress getting involved in the sports arena ..." she said, "but if developments lead us there, we'll have to go there."
"I can say no more..."

-- In another sports-related issue, Boxer said congressional oversight may also be needed to get answers from college football's Bowl Championship Series after the failure of UC Berkeley's team to be selected to the Rose Bowl despite a 10-1 record and a No. 4 ranking.
"Why do sports fans hate us?"

In a letter to Kevin Weiberg, the coordinator of the Bowl Championship Series, Boxer suggested that the Senate Commerce Committee, which oversees interstate commerce and sports, might require more information about the process regarding the way teams were picked for bowl games. These are decisions in which there are "millions of dollars at stake" for universities, she said. Cal's failure to land a Rose Bowl bid and its invitation to play in the Holiday Bowl is estimated to have cost the university $2.5 million, according to the Pacific 10 conference.

-- On Schwarzenegger's performance, Boxer said, "when the governor reaches out in a nonpartisan way, he does very well ... (but) when he decides to create division, as he did to the nurses, I just think he falls so flat -- and it's discouraging."
Translation - "He didn't do what I wanted"

Boxer was referring the governor's remarks last week at an annual conference on women, in which he urged the audience to ignore a small protests of nurses, calling them "special interests" which he said were angry at him because "I kick their butt."

Posted by: Warthog || 12/14/2004 12:43:20 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  When I read the title I thought Mike Tyson was at it again.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 13:50 Comments || Top||

#2  I'd like to see an investigation into stock-market trading by this ex-stockbroker.

But as to Kerik, his appointment always stunk. A very strange choice for a super-bureaucratic inside Beltway post with no authority. I ahve to think that there's an untold story here about Giuliani's ambitions and what he thought Bush would do for him. Probably thought he could get Bush/Rove's early blessing as the conservative heir apparent for 2008.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#3  On Schwarzenegger’s performance, Boxer said, "when the governor reaches out in a nonpartisan way, he does very well ... (but) when he decides to create division, as he did to the nurses, I just think he falls so flat -- and it’s discouraging."

Anyone else noticed the latest talking point from the left? Anyone who doesn't do what they want is "creating division". Never mind that, most of the time, they're the ones calling names, spitting on people, and doing their best to divide people along class, race, and religious lines -- no, everyone else is divisive.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 14:10 Comments || Top||

#4  Ah, the pre-emptive slur - the tactic of Dhimmidonk choice for the last year. They seem to be stuck, unimaginative... a cranial vapor-lock, perhaps? Perhaps we can suggest another line of attack for them?
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||

#5  I think the people of My former state need to review their vetting process. They re-elected this nincompoop twice.
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 14:33 Comments || Top||

#6  Warthog: Excellent headine to the posting. Well done.
Posted by: Mark Z. || 12/14/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#7  Let's really twist Barb's knickers: Schwarzenegger for Secretary of Homeland Security!
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 15:39 Comments || Top||

#8  They seem to be stuck

Yeah, that seems to be part of the bargain when your party's intellectually bankrupt.

Believe I'll starting referring to the Democratic party as Whigs.
Posted by: Dreadnought || 12/14/2004 15:45 Comments || Top||

#9  Thanks Mark.....what we really need is a
"Boxer Rebellion".....
Posted by: Warthog || 12/14/2004 16:02 Comments || Top||

#10  Great title Warhog.
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 12/14/2004 16:38 Comments || Top||

#11  Anyone else noticed the latest talking point from the left?

It's nothing new; just another variation of it's-good-when-we-do-it-but-not-when-you-do-it.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 16:50 Comments || Top||

#12  Hey, Barbara, you mean like the Dems vetted Kerry? Anybody ask him about his magic hat and Christmas in Cambodia? You really thought the Winter Soldier stuff didn't matter?
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
1,100 Iranian scientists assisted nuke plans
Ed. note: I don't know much about this site (Iran Mania) so can't vouch for this info. Any Rantburgers have an opinion? If it's not a credible site, I'll kill this post. Thanks.

An official on Sunday said Iran acquired nuclear fuel technology because of the endeavors of 1,100 Iranian scientists and experts, whose average age is 27. Speaking to Fars News Agency, Second Vice Chairman of Majlis National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Mohammad Nabi Roudaki added that in talks with the European Union's Big 3 Iran must stress that it acquired nuclear fuel technology by virtue of the efforts of its domestic forces. "The red line with regard to peaceful nuclear technology is getting access to the fuel cycle. The negotiating team should not transcend this red line. We must now be viewed as a country that has access to nuclear fuel. We cannot move backwards while we have experts in the country ... The negotiating team should not be intimidated by the US threats."

The official referred to the remark of International Atomic Energy Agency's Chief Mohamed ElBaradei that there is no evidence to indicate Iran is seeking access to nuclear weapons in the face of continuing anti-Iran allegations by the US and said, "We must discuss this contradiction with the Europeans." Roudaki noted that in recent years several countries have managed to gain access to nuclear fuel technology in the wake of their constant interactions with the IAEA. "The people and officials should not be worried about this issue. Because some countries even waited longer than us to get the final greenlight from the agency," he said.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 12:28:31 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [17 views] Top|| File under:

#1  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Pholuns Threresing2158 TROLL || 12/14/2004 0:40 Comments || Top||

#2  All those scientists and they still cant calculate how screwed they are .
Posted by: MacNails || 12/14/2004 6:34 Comments || Top||

#3  Iranmania has seemed fairly responsible in the past. Their info cannot usually be corroborated, but seems mostly plausible...
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 8:12 Comments || Top||

#4  *nods* When I was in Graduate school, I knew a lot of Iranians who were in the Nuclear Engineering department.
Posted by: Ptah || 12/14/2004 9:10 Comments || Top||

#5  You are a man of one thought, Boris.
Posted by: Korora || 12/14/2004 10:44 Comments || Top||

#6  As a sovereign country Iran has unrestricted freedom to do whatever it wants within its borders.

Search Google for restoring America's dignity to see who is destroying America.
Posted by: Pholuns Threresing2158 || 12/14/2004 0:40 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
IAEA Chief: Arabs don't address security
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - The Arab-Israeli conflict has kept Arabs from addressing other security concerns, including the need to rid the region of weapons of mass destruction, the head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog said Monday. Mohamed ElBaradei head of the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency told a forum of international leaders that the Middle East must free itself of all weapons of mass destruction. "We only focus on land for peace, we never really look at security," ElBaradei said. "Clearly we need to have a nuclear weapon free zone, clearly we have to rid ourselves of chemical and biological weapons and that has to be, again, part of the security dialogue that should to be parallel to the peace process." ElBaradei said Arab states need to consider such questions as how to deal with neighbors like Iran and whether regional or international alliances or alliances with major powers would better serve their security needs. "The problem is we never really defined, in the Arab world, what is our security threat," he said. Security in the region is undermined by poverty, lack of basic freedoms and violations of human rights, which breeds terrorism and extremism, ElBaradei said.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 12:01:56 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "We only focus on land for peace, we never really look at security,"

Sadly, the Arabs focus is not on land for peace. Its on genocide of Jews, promulgation of the Wahabism and, above all, complaining.
Posted by: mhw || 12/14/2004 8:50 Comments || Top||

#2  "The problem is we never really defined, in the Arab world, what is our security threat," he said. Security in the region is undermined by poverty, lack of basic freedoms and violations of human rights, which breeds terrorism and extremism, ElBaradei said.

None of which have anything to do with Jews or Israel, yet that is where the Arabs eventually end up when looking for someone/something to blame for their problems.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 10:42 Comments || Top||

#3  "...including the need to rid the region of weapons of mass destruction..." This is just code for the Arabic demands of at least the past year that Israel get rid of its nuclear missiles. The light has started to dawn on some of these buggers that if somebody, *anybody*, throws a ballistic missile at Israel, then much of the Islamic world will shortly thereafter become glass. A swordfight is less fun if your enemy has a sword, too. And no fun at all if they have a gun.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#4  Note that Elbaradei is in "we" mode - Muslim First - everything else an irrelevant second.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:04 Comments || Top||

#5  Bingo, dot. Different words for different audiences. I think that was an Arafat trick.
Posted by: chicago mike || 12/14/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||

#6  What's wrong with this picture: the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency says "we never really defined, in the Arab world, what is our security threat."

Why is a UN official speaking out in an official capacity on Arab concerns and Arab interests?
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#7  Flush this guy!
Posted by: Capt America || 12/14/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||


Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
15 Foreigners Detained in Chechnya
Lemme guess! Samoans? Esquimeaux?
Authorities have detained 15 foreigners in Chechnya, most of them citizens of former Soviet Muslim republics, military officials said Tuesday.
Ahah! Udmurts! I knew it all the time!
The detained foreigners were mostly citizens of Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan and Ukraine whose visas had expired or who hadn't properly registered with authorities, said Maj. Gen. Ilya Shabalkin, a spokesman for Russian troops in Chechnya. Shabalkin also said none of the detained could explain what they were doing in Chechnya, raising suspicions of their collaboration with Chechen rebels.
"Doing here? Why, I don't know! I went to sleep on the bus, see? And when I woke up, here I was!"
He added that several wounded rebels have been illegally taken for treatment to Crimea in Ukraine. Meanwhile, Chechen police detained two suspected rebels and confiscated their weapons, the Interfax news agency reported, citing acting Chechen Interior Minister Ruslan Alkhanov. One of the men had been on the wanted list as an aide to radical Islamic warlord Shamil Basayev, who has taken responsibility for a series of devastating terrorist attacks.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 1:18:58 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:


Israel-Palestine
Palestinian Security Worker Killed in Gaza
Civilized countries have "sex workers." Paleostine has "security workers."
A Palestinian security worker was shot and killed Tuesday by Israeli troops in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, Palestinian medical officials said. Samir Khafaja, 27, was walking in the street when he was shot in the head and chest in the town on the Gaza border with Egypt, medical officials said. Two other Palestinian security personnel were wounded. An Israeli military official said the army opened fire on three suspicious figures crawling in the area of the border. The official could not say if the figures were armed.
"Hey, man! Whudja do that for? We wuzh jus' crawlin' down the street on our way home from a... a... buzhinesh meetin'!"
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 1:14:49 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [15 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Civilized countries have "sex workers." Paleostine has "security workers."
was walking in the street when he was shot
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:13 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Former Saddam aide captured
A COUSIN and former aide to Saddam Hussein has been arrested and will face trial along with the former dictator and his other deputies, Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said today. He told Iraq's National Council in a televised speech that Izzeddine al-Majid al-Tikriti, who was not on the US list of 55 most wanted members of Saddam's regime, had been captured last week. He gave no further details. Majid was accused by US authorities in July of funding and arming the anti-American insurgency in Iraq, a charge he denied.
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't me."
Majid, a former officer in Saddam's elite Republican Guard, is believed to have fled to Jordan in 1995 along with his family and his brother-in-law, Hussein Kamel, a general and son-in-law of Saddam. When Kamel, his family and Majid's wife returned to Iraq the following year, they were killed by Saddam's inner circle. Majid, meanwhile, escaped to Turkey. In recent years he is reported to have been in exile in Jordan, Britain and the United Arab Emirates. Trials of some of Saddam Hussein's aides will begin next week, Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said today. Speaking to Iraq's National Council, he did not name the lieutenants that would go on trial or say when Saddam himself would appear in court. "I will tell you clearly and specifically that next week, God willing, the trials of the symbols of the former regime will begin," Mr Allawi said.
That'll make a nice run-up to the Iraqi election
He added that an alleged senior figure among the foreign-inspired Islamists who are believed to be making common cause in an anti-American insurgency with secular former Saddam loyalists had also been caught. "In addition to the members of the former regime, there are terrorist elements that came from abroad," Mr Allawi said. "A person called Hassan Ibrahim Farhan Zaydi was killed. He is one of Zarqawi's people. Two of his aides were detained. "Of course he was killed in a confrontation. These were involved in major acts of destruction."
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 11:38:20 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  In the deck of cards, he was the little instruction sheet for ordering more Official Bicycle products.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#2  There certainly have been a number of arrests and captures in the last few days. Fallujah dividends rolling in?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 16:54 Comments || Top||

#3  nice one, .com! :-p
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 16:57 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
A Speculation About Atta's Trip to Maine and About the Anthrax Attacks
From Scientia Press, an article by Kenneth J. Dillon, president of Spectrum Bioscience, Inc., a medical research company, and the head of the nonprofit Center for Appropriate Technology, which works on nonproliferation and appropriate technology projects in Russia.

.... According to an August 27, 2004 article in Canada's National Post, Mohammed Mansour Jabarah, a 22-year old Canadian, told interrogators that he had heard from Abu Abdelrahman, who worked for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, that the November 12, 2001 crash of American Airlines Flight #587 in New York was the result of an al Qaeda shoe bomb. The bomber was "Farouk the Tunisian". Newspaper photographs showed him to be Abderraouf Jdey, a 36-year old Montreal-based Canadian of Tunisian origin.

Jdey is one of the seven al Qaeda terrorists listed in the FBI's plea for information from the public in May, 2004. He had emigrated to Canada in 1991, gained citizenship in 1995, and then travelled to Afghanistan where he trained as one of the ten substitutes for the 9/11 attackers. According to KSM, Jdey was slated for pilot training and was to be in the second wave of attacks. Jdey recorded a martyrdom statement in a video later found by American forces in Afghanistan. He returned to Montreal in summer 2001.

Al Qaeda had a history of interest in biological weapons. There is evidence that the 9/11 attackers had anthrax in their possession during the months preceding September 11, 2001. They were evidently seeking a way to use a cropduster to spread anthrax over an American city. A medical doctor who treated a future hijacker for a skin lesion has stated that the lesion he treated was consistent with one caused by anthrax. A pharmacist reported to FBI that Mohamed Atta, leader of the 9/11 attacks, had sought a remedy for skin irritation on his hands, which were red from the wrists down. An accompanying fellow terrorist sought a remedy for a cough.

If the 9/11 attackers possessed anthrax, they would have had to hand it off to another al Qaeda operative before September 11. Otherwise the precious vials of anthrax, the first and only weapon of mass destruction that al Qaeda had ever possessed, would have been wasted. But they wouldn't necessarily trust just any al Qaeda operative to safeguard and perform with the anthrax, and perhaps they knew very few of al Qaeda's sleepers in North America anyway. They would want to give the anthrax to an operative they knew and trusted, one who would use it to the best effect.

Abderraouf Jdey appears to have been exactly such a person. He stands out from the nine other 9/11 substitutes. He was older, from a different country of origin, with Canadian citizenship, with semi-sleeper status, and with a clear designation as part of the second wave. He had trained in Afghanistan simultaneously with Mohamed Atta. He was also well enough educated to have been slated for pilot training. So Jdey was the logical person for Atta to hand off the anthrax to. We can also identify the logical time and place for such a transfer to have occurred.

One of the unexplained anomalies in the hijackers' story has been why Atta and a fellow hijacker travelled from Boston to Portland, Maine on September 10. Taking a feeder flight from Portland to Boston on the morning of September 11 caused Atta nearly to miss his connection, and he and his companion had to pass through security questioning twice rather than once--at a significant added risk of detection. So Atta must have had some reason to go to Portland that outweighed such risks. The most obvious explanation would be that he had an important meeting on a subject that required face-to-face contact, not just a veiled telephone conversation. A transaction with someone coming from the North, arranged for outside of Boston to lessen the risk of surveillance. Clearly, Jdey would be a very likely "someone", and handing over the vials of anthrax would furnish a compelling reason for their otherwise risky meeting.

If we assume that Jdey indeed was the recipient of vials of anthrax, in Portland or by some other means, then subsequent events could have followed this course:

While the 9/11 hijackers had sought access to a cropduster to spread the anthrax over an American city, Jdey presumably saw that receiving training at an American flight school was not in the cards after 9/11. So he had to resort to another method of distributing the anthrax.

He decided to mail it. The first mailings took place in September immediately after the initial U.S. Air Force's first bombings in Afghanistan, presumably as a response to them. The second mailings, to Senators Daschle and Leahy, occurred in October and included ultrahigh-quality anthrax. Driving (or taking a train) hundreds of miles from Montreal to Trenton to mail the letters made sense because it perfectly disguised Jdey's Canadian base.

The anthrax letters do not show any obvious Gallicisms that would betray that they were from a fluent French-speaker, which Jdey presumably was. But they are consistent with a person who has acquired English as a second language, and there is nothing in them that is inconsistent with Jdey as author. In fact, Jdey is a very plausible author of the anthrax letters.

One of the main characteristics or anomalies of the Anthrax Mailer case has been how remarkably elusive the Mailer was both during his period of activity in autumn, 2001 and thereafter. Despite a massive FBI investigation backed by hundreds of thousands of tips from the American public, the Mailer has succeeded in hiding his tracks. Being based in Canada, contrary to every expectation, would nicely explain his elusiveness during his period of activity.

The recently leaked Canadian intelligence report from 2002 provides a plausible explanation for the lack of information about Jdey's whereabouts since then (as well as for the cessation of the anthrax mailings): Jdey committed suicide on Flight #587 on November 12, 2001. .....

If he was indeed the Anthrax Mailer, he was a hard-headed man of action. Instead of dreaming about impractical schemes of sowing the anthrax in the skies above a city, he realized that he had to use it before being captured. So he mailed it. Thus, too, in early November, 2001, he recognized that--as the Anthrax Mailer--he was likely to be arrested at any moment, so he would do well to act on his pledge of martyrdom by turning himself into a shoebomber. The first success of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance, backed by the U.S. Air Force, could have triggered his decision to leave Canada in early November (the Canadian intelligence report has him leaving Canada in November, though the date is not provided). On November 12 he showed up at Kennedy International Airport and boarded Flight #587.

No Canadian passport holders are listed on the final passenger list of Flight #587. Possessor of many aliases, Jdey presumably had several other passports. A number of the passengers were plausibly francophones; perhaps one of them was Jdey. Jdey would presumably have handed whatever remained of the vials of anthrax to a fellow operative in Canada or the northeastern United States. The cessation of the mailings after October, 2001 after their initial success is a third anomaly neatly explained by this account. A fourth anomaly, of course, is that Flight #587 disintegrated and crashed.

The scenario sketched out above has the virtue of conforming to the evidence available in a logical manner. Three main perceptions support it: 1) it would powerfully explain Atta's mysterious Portland trip; 2) it would show why the Mailer has proven so elusive and why the mailings ceased; and 3) it fits very well the characteristics that caused Jdey to stand out among the substitute hijackers, and indeed that differentiated him from the actual hijackers as well.

Of course, there are major gaps in the evidence. The putative Portland meeting may never have occurred. The cause of the crash of Flight #587 remains controversial. According to the official inquiry, there was no evidence of an explosion on board. Accounts of eyewitnesses from the ground, however, are highly consistent with a shoe bomb explosion. The explosion could have been small enough to be masked by wake turbulence from the preceding JAL aircraft. The co-pilot's frantic manipulation of the rudder would thus have been a hopeless attempt to rescue a doomed aircraft. We don't know when Jdey crossed the border. We have no proof that he ever was in Trenton. It is conceivable that he used messengers to meet with Atta and mail the letters. In short, we don't know a lot that we need to know. ....

http://www.scientiapress.com/findings/anthrax.htm

..... First, that the handwriting, linguistic, and putative psychological evidence in the anthrax letters shows them to be a fake seems quite a stretch. No observer has found a single piece of evidence that conclusively demonstrates that the anthrax letters are not what they seem to be. If they are a fake, they are a rather good one, done by someone who had carefully studied the subject and worked hard to develop a mastery of it. Such mastery is unlikely to have been the product of a few days of work between the September 11 terrorist attacks and the September 18 first anthrax letter mailings. This is not inconceivable, but it also isn't easy to believe.

If, however, the letters were written by an al Qaeda operative, the opening sentence (without a period)--"This is next"--is a marvelously suggestive and menacing one, the clear suggestion being that al Qaeda has an entire series of dirty weapons at its disposal. Putting this menace in the first sentence is very good literary style, which can make up for the supposedly significant deviation from starting with the traditional invocation of Allah. .....

While the first mailings on September 18 seem to have contained the ordinary Ames strain of anthrax of Fort Detrick, Maryland (U.S. Government) provenance, the second mailings on October 9--to Senators Daschle and Leahy--contained anthrax at a much higher level, reaching the stupendous level of one trillion spores per gram. .... the anthrax in the letters to the senators was clearly the product of an exceptional technical process, with each infinitesmal spore wrapped in its own coating of a special, undisclosed chemical and all of the spores exquisitely stacked. Evidently, in any case, the Mailer had access to more than one batch of anthrax.

Several aspects of all this deserve explanation. Why two leading Democratic senators, of all potential U.S. Government targets? A frequent explanation holds that this is a tipoff that the Mailer was a domestic terrorist with a rightwing agenda. Of course, it is hardly likely that the anthrax would have ever reached the senators themselves .....
Senator Leahy was of special interest to al Qaeda as the head of the appropriations panel in charge of aid to Egypt and Israel. In 1998 this panel formulated the "Leahy Law", which permitted the U.S. Government to continue appropriations to military and security units that conduct torture if there are "extraordinary circumstances". Under the Leahy Law, the U.S. has "rendered" Egyptian Islamic Jihad members to the Government of Egypt, a practice that drew the fierce condemnation of Dr. Ayman Zawahiri, leader of the EIJ and second only to Bin Laden in al Qaeda. So targeting Leahy with an anthrax letter must be considered highly characteristic of al Qaeda. .....

If the Mailer has such high-grade anthrax, why didn't he use it in the first mailings? A plausible explanation would be that he doesn't have much of it, that it is precious, in very short supply, that it would not be easy or cheap to come up with more of it. In turn, that suggests that the Mailer acquired this high-quality anthrax from someone else and does not have the capacity to produce it himself. ......

It has Team Effort written all over it. And not just any team. To reach the very demanding specifications of a perfected, ready-to-go high-technology product that these one trillion spores per gram represented required a "national program" with a team of at least a half-dozen highly skilled scientists and engineers working with advanced equipment and many millions of dollars over years of effort in an iterative fashion, with multiple frustrations and setbacks along the road. The scientific, engineering, and project management skills of such a team must have been at an exceptionally high level--suggesting that only a few advanced countries could have accomplished this feat. ....

So, which country's government was the perpetrator of this crime against humanity? For that is exactly what one trillion spores per gram of a deadly biowarfare agent are. Developed, of course, in the name of self-defense against a potential aggressor. And how did this superbly refined anthrax come into the hands of the Anthrax Mailer? .....

That leaves two prime suspects: Russia and the UK. The Russians may have obtained the Ames strain via espionage, then worked on it to bring it up to one trillion spores per gram. .... And the UK?

In a clearcut violation of the Convention, which states explicitly that no country is to provide biowarfare agents or knowhow to any other country "whatsoever", the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick, Maryland gave its British counterpart, the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment at Porton Down, the Ames strain in the late 1980s. The reason offered was to permit the British to develop their own defensive measures against the anthrax. The British certainly have the scientific expertise to achieve such an engineering feat. Porton Down is not too far from Oxford University, a leading center of physical chemistry. The justification of developing ultrahigh-quality anthrax in order to test defensive measures could always be applied. A spirit of rivalry with the Americans may have been involved: "We can do better than the Yanks did." And there may have been the motive of seeking a surprise weapon that would strengthen the UK's military posture.

How might the various versions of this British anthrax find their way to al Qaeda? Two routes suggest themselves:

First, .... If a British scientist in Russian pay had provided small amounts of the original American and successively higher grades of British anthrax to his Russian liaison in the period following the collapse of the Soviet Union, moreover, the chances of diversion would have been very good. ..... A plausible scenario: at a price of perhaps $10 million, a network like that of Victor Bout, ex-Russian officer who became an arms salesman to UN-embargoed countries, would have sold to al Qaeda several vials containing a few grams each of the American strain and the ultrahigh-quality strain of British anthrax. The pattern of small amounts of several grades of anthrax in the letters is very consistent with a situation in which a scientist would have surreptitiously sequestered a few grams each of various batches of anthrax as it was being iteratively upgraded. It is also suggestive of a constraint that would have led the ultimate attacker to decide to disperse the anthrax via mail rather than into the air above a city: that the perpetrator only had a few grams of each type at his disposal.

Second, the 1993 partial privatization of the civilian Centre for Applied Microbiology and Research (CAMR) associated with the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment at Porton Down included the transfer of all British Government anthrax vaccine to Porton Products Ltd. Through a series of holding companies, Porton Products is owned in part by the Lebanese-origin Fuad El-Hibri, who had worked for Citibank in Saudi Arabia arranging investments for rich Saudis. El-Hibri subsequently acquired the Michigan Biological Products Institute, thereby forming BioPort, Inc., the sole supplier of anthrax vaccine in the U.S. and UK (see the commentary "FBI Overlooks Foreign Sources of Anthrax" by Edward Jay Epstein in the Wall Street Journal, December 24, 2001).

With part of El-Hibri's rationale apparently being to protect Saudi Arabia against Iraqi anthrax, the company managed to acquire at least one virulent Ames strain for testing on animals. What else transpired in the obscure relationships between and among the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment, the civilian CAMR, and Porton Products Ltd is not clear; but surely the opportunities for surreptitious appropriation of a few grams of various grades of anthrax were considerable. The Saudi connection alone makes this route of transmission of the anthrax to al Qaeda very plausible. .....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 12/14/2004 11:37:33 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Aris (if you happen to see this) this same author has an interesting theory about the Trojans and Etruscans.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 12/14/2004 23:49 Comments || Top||


Europe
Paris sends Japanese into suicidal state: report
A strange illness has descended on Japanese living in Paris, tipping many of them in a state of profound culture shock after realising their ideals about the French capital were unrealistic, a study published in Monday's Liberation newspaper said. More than a 100 expatriates a year are sinking into a state called "the Paris syndrome" which is characterised by feelings of persecution or suicidal tendencies, according to the mental health facilities of city hospitals.

Part of their clinical depression stems from having to reconcile their romanticism about Paris with reality, psychiatrists said. "Magazines are fuelling fantasies with the Japanese, who think there are models everywhere and the women dress entirely in (Louis) Vuitton," Mario Renoux, the head of a French Japanese Society for Medecine was quoted as saying. After a relatively short period of only three months or so, Japanese immigrants expecting to find a haven of civilisation and elegance instead discover a tougher existence with many problems dealing with the French. "They make fun of my French and my expressions", "they don't like me" and "I feel ridiculous in front of them" are common refrains heard by the doctors.

The need to forcibly express one's self to be noticed - seen as vulgar in Japanese society - and exposure to a humour sometimes seen as offensive adds to the unhappiness. "The phenomenon manifests itself in those who are unable to adapt to France because of the shock resulting from the confrontation between the two cultures," Dr Ota, a Japanese psychologist treating some of the patients at Sainte-Anne Hospital, said. He and other experts underlined Japan's ideal of collectivism, or putting the group first, as a barrier for some of the immigrants who suddenly find themselves in a Western society based more on individualism.
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 11:31:18 PM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [18 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I have an alternate explanation for this phenomenom:

In the 19th century, when even Americans typically bathed just a few times a year, an American diplomat reported in wonderment that even the lowliest Japanese coolie spent an hour a day soaking in hot water.
This long-established custom carries over to the present, so one can imagine the Japanese reaction to French standards of cleanliness, such as they are.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 12/14/2004 0:52 Comments || Top||

#2  Ain't that what purfume is for?
No modern metropolitian France is farm more less cultured than even the US from what I can see.
A person from North America could feel more at home than any most Japanese would. Plus teh Frence are more Xenophobic than Japanese are.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 1:04 Comments || Top||

#3  SPoD - you may want to lower your egg-nog dosage. :-)
Posted by: PBMcL || 12/14/2004 1:18 Comments || Top||

#4  Hey cut SPoD some slack, he just passed a final.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 7:43 Comments || Top||

#5  he just passed a final.

A final what?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 7:49 Comments || Top||

#6  I just passed a kidney stone.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 12/14/2004 8:30 Comments || Top||

#7  Japanese culture is oriented towards group harmony, hard work, and integrity. French culture ... is not.
Posted by: AJackson || 12/14/2004 9:07 Comments || Top||

#8  Thats what I get for not wearing my spelling hat :D
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 12/14/2004 15:12 Comments || Top||

#9  SPoD

Could you avoid that kind of racist jokes? In 1944 French houses were quite old, meaning very few of them had baths or showers and people had to go to city showers (plus a shortage of soap due to German occupation).

But this was sixty years ago. Today, people I know take a shower or batrh every day, two when it is hot. Of course we have higienycally challenged people a la Micahel Moore but so you have.
Posted by: JFM || 12/14/2004 15:22 Comments || Top||

#10  More a problem of Paris than of the French generally. Parisians are notoriously competitive, aggressive and self-aggrandizing.

In their basic interactions, the Parisians are extremely combative. It's hugely important to them to demonstrate one's superiority to someone, anyone, around you. Usually this is done through vigorous intellectual argumentation; often it's done by pulling rank; ccasionally it's done through simple class snobbery.

Whatever the motivation, it's self-aggrandizing in a way that must completely mystify and depress the Japanese. Ironically, proving one's superiority is equated in Paris with saving face.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:33 Comments || Top||

#11  Ah, it's mine's bigger 'n yours. I get it. My experience was merely the incredible disdain they held for me when I attempted to speak French. Not recommended unless you are raised with it and can pull off the appropriate accent for your current locale.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 15:38 Comments || Top||

#12  The Parisians adore Manhattan and v-v. Tells you most of what you need to know.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:41 Comments || Top||

#13  Lex is right on this one. Most other French can't stand Parisians because they make New Yorkers seem polite. I've found that if you call bullsh*t on them, basically give them some grief for being typical Parisians, then they lighten up and are more civil. Still, it must be a shock for the Japanese.
Posted by: Remoteman || 12/14/2004 15:45 Comments || Top||

#14  Most other French can't stand Parisians

LOL! That's because they speak the most respectable French. LOL! A certain look, roll of eye, a way of walking, a toothy smile? Where's Lucky!
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 17:05 Comments || Top||

#15  Still, it must be a shock for the Japanese

And the Parisian women and the restaurants are surprisingly lame. The former tend to be scrawny and pallid; the latter are vastly overrated and overpriced.

Paris has fewer beautiful women per capita than any major international city. NYC and even London leave Paris behind in this respect. And of course Moscow's in a class by itself
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 17:17 Comments || Top||

#16  If you think this was a racist slur, tell me which race you believe populates all of France.
Posted by: dubois || 12/14/2004 22:57 Comments || Top||

#17  dubois... 'racism' has little to do with race today, in modern language it seems to have more to do with ethnic/culture groups.. sides calling someone an ‘ethnist’ sounds stupid ;p
Posted by: Dcreeper || 12/14/2004 23:46 Comments || Top||


France 'must boost immigrant police numbers'
Okay. I'm not too bright. Explain to me why they 'must' do it? Who's making them do it? If they'd have asked my opinion, I'd have told them it's their country and they can have the police force they want.
An official report presented to the French interior ministry Tuesday reveals disturbingly low levels of police recruitment among the country's Arab and black minorities and calls for urgent action to boost numbers in the years ahead. Of France's 14,400 police officers only 300 are of Arab or African origin and of 1,800 superintendents only around 10 are, according to the report compiled by writer Azouz Begag. The figure was higher among 11,000 "security assistants" who help police in their duties. Between five and 15 percent of these are from the concerned minorities, the report found.

More than 10 percent of the French population - some six million people - are of north or sub-Saharan African origin, and their over-representation in crime and unemployment figures is seen as France's most pressing social problem. In the report entitled "A Republic with Open Skies," Begag says the policies of successive governments have resulted in a profound sense of exclusion among the minorities, most of whom live in depressing high-rise apartment buildings on the outside of major towns. "A veil of bitterness has sown scepticism and disillusionment," he says. Counselling against a policy of "positive discrimination," Begag instead urges a "targeted campaign to search out recruits on the ground. ... It will take time for the young to recognise themselves in this mission of public service which is the police."
I'm sure their imam's will recognize the value of having sleeper agents inside the police ranks right away.
According to Begag, the number of immigrant officers should be "tripled in the two or three years to come." To encourage recruitment, black and Arab officers should sit as a matter of course on admissions boards, and selection procedures should be adapted to avoid "culturally specific" questions, the report said.
Have you been convicted of a crime, do you have C-4 under your bed, etc.
It also recommended the establishment of "anti-discrimination brigades" at police stations in order to break the commonly held view that officers are hostile to racial minorities. Members of the brigades would intervene immediately to stop or record acts of racial discrimination - for example at the entrance to nightclubs where many black and Arab people say they are routinely excluded.
The Politically Correct Police
Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin was expected to adopt some of the report's recommendations, in particular extending the role of so-called "republican cadets" - young people who train part-time with the police in conjunction with their jihad studies.
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 11:28:54 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Is there any tenet of common sense unbroken by the current Phrench regime? Just wondering... They keep opting for the imagined sophisticated response - and consequently keep digging deeper their hole of economic stagnation, festering immigrant problems, and the wholesale squandering of the last vestiges of goodwill they have with anyone else on the Phreakin' Planet. An amazing record, Jacques, Dominique.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:54 Comments || Top||

#2  14,400 police officers in France? From where is this number? La police nationale? la gendarmerie? les compangnies republicaines de securite?

Anyway, notice how Begag doesn't want a policy of discrimination positive, but just wait til he hears of action affirmative, then he'll change his tune.
Posted by: chicago mike || 12/14/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#3  Cool....let's record hate crimes like keeping someone from dancing to house music! It's a lot more fun than solving vandalism crimes at a Jewish cemetery.....
Posted by: Desert Blondie || 12/14/2004 22:20 Comments || Top||


-Short Attention Span Theater-
Man Bites Dog -- Charged with felony
Posted by: eLarson || 12/14/2004 11:24 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Oh man, Mount Lee Lacy - wotta 'tard. Did the right thing, if the article is accurate. Hell, mebbe they should just shoot him, on second thought. Unbelievable moron and asshole.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#2  CYco!
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 13:25 Comments || Top||

#3  Nice pic.
Cue up the Deliverance music.
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 15:49 Comments || Top||

#4  Well it was a "tails End " story. I like it when the "tale" is reversed, so many animal's are put to sleep because they are biters/dangerous etc. I hope justice is served for the DOGS sake***

PAWS UP.

Andrea Jackson
Posted by: andrea || 12/14/2004 18:13 Comments || Top||

#5  Grrrrrrrrr.

I volunteer on weekends to work at the county pound. I have seen them actually killing "biters." It's not pleasant, though the dog often is at fault. (Big area for the "sport" of fighting.)

In this case, I'm just glad I wasn't there. This asshole would get to meet Mr. Kimber Custom Classic. Who would take care of My dogs when I was in jail? All in all, best that I wasn't there.
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 20:54 Comments || Top||

#6  thisn florida. nuff said. :)
Posted by: muck4doo || 12/14/2004 21:10 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Assailants Set Fire to Iraq Oil Pipeline
Unknown assailants set off a fire near a vital oil pipeline in northern Iraq, raising concerns that the heat could damage the line, an official said Tuesday. Firefighters were trying to put off the fire which began late Monday after someone set ablaze a hole in the ground filled with oil that had leaked out during previous attacks, said a Northern Oil Co. official who spoke on condition of anonymity. He said the fire, in an area about 43 miles southwest of Kirkuk, could cause nearby pipelines to explode. They include the line leading from the northern oil fields to the Turkish port of Ceyhan, a principal export route.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:13:13 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [12 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Assailants Set Fire to Iraq Oil Pipeline"

Well of course they did. Their cable TV sucks.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 15:02 Comments || Top||

#2  The surest way to stop this nonsense is to establish an Iraqi oil trust fund and make sure that every Iraqi citizen understands that their annual checks come from the sale of oil. Once they realize that attacks on the pipeline cost them money, they will put an end to the people who do this.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 16:47 Comments || Top||


Europe
Opposition Supporters to Expand in Ukraine
Supporters of opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko expanded a campaign to spread their so-called Orange Revolution beyond Ukraine's capital Tuesday, organizing a convoy that will visit 15 cities in the coming days — including in eastern provinces that have been hostile to the candidate. More than 50 supporters of the Pora (It's Time) youth movement will head to the pro-Russian eastern provinces, hoping to win over voters in areas where support for Yushchenko's Kremlin-backed opponent, Viktor Yanukovych, has been strong.

Yushchenko and Yanukovych face off for the presidency in a Dec. 26 contest ordered by the Supreme Court after the their Nov. 21 runoff was voided by the Supreme Court because of massive fraud. Yushchenko's supporters massed in the streets by the tens of thousands following the runoff, wearing the opposition's trademark orange color. The "friendship journey" is part of a campaign that been roiled by the explosive confirmation from an Austrian clinic over the weekend that Yushchenko had been poisoned by dioxin. Prosecutors and a parliamentary committee quickly set up investigations _ the second time each has examined the poisoning incident _ and officials close to the Ukrainian leadership took charge of both.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:12:25 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  At first the headline made me think that Hardee's was pushing their Monster Thickburgers in the Ukraine.
Posted by: AlanC || 12/14/2004 13:08 Comments || Top||


Radicals Youths Being Trained in Iraq
Radical youths from Europe and the Arab world are being trained in Iraq, Europe's anti-terror chief said Tuesday, warning that such clandestine camps could multiply in unstable or failed states anywhere in the world. "There are some who have gone to Iraq, as indeed there have been youngsters from outside Europe, from Arab countries, who have gone there to receive military training," EU counterterrorism coordinator Gijs de Vries said. De Vries refused to elaborate on the specifics, such as the numbers or countries of origin of those training in Iraq, saying the information was classified. But he warned that action had to be taken to stop instability breeding terror.
I'd suggest going beyond "educating" the little bastards. That hasn't worked to date, and it's not going to work even after you pour more money into the programs and hire more of your relatives to run them...
"This is incidentally not just the case in Iraq," he said. "Instability elsewhere in the world, in Africa for example, always makes it more difficult for the law to be upheld, for democracy to function, and therefore makes it easier for terrorists to hide and train." In other comments, De Vries said Europe should not become complacent in spite of a lull in attacks since the March 11 train bombings in Madrid and the foiling of plots in several countries. "Overall, we can say that the threat of terrorism in Europe remains high," De Vries said. "We should take it very seriously indeed."
Figure the Bad Guyz try for something major every six months or so, something spectacular once a year...
Spanish and British authorities say they have averted major terror attacks in recent months. In October, 30 people were detained on suspicion of planning to drive an explosives-packed truck into Madrid's National Court. British police said last week they had prevented an attack in London on the scale of the Madrid bombings. "There have been other instances," De Vries said, but refused to give details.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:10:12 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Find 'em, document 'em, then drop several cluster bombs on 'em to kill 'em all.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 11:27 Comments || Top||

#2  He's a whirlwind of action and volcano of verity - a veritable coordination machine, he is. And, if one reads closely enough, the references to Iraq are utterly superfluous and mere pandering to the anti-US subtext. Piss off, Der Fries / WTop.

I can say no more...
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#3  Surely any camps in Iraq are visible from the air or satellite photographs? One small daisy cutter per site should neatly take care of the problem.
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 11:35 Comments || Top||

#4  But he warned that action had to be taken to stop instability breeding terror.

sooo...I guess we are better of with terror being bred in a stable environment.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:38 Comments || Top||

#5  Let's see, it's better to bitch about an alleged problem than to take decisive actions (i.e., pitch in in Iraq) to remove the possibility? Sounds an awful lot like a bad spouse.
Posted by: Capt America || 12/14/2004 17:48 Comments || Top||

#6  That's right, Captain. We good spouses bitch while we're helping ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 19:53 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Pakistan, India Begin Anti-Nuclear Talks
Pakistani and Indian negotiators opened talks Tuesday on how to avoid an accidental nuclear war between the two South Asian rivals, the foreign ministry said.
They've come close to it twice in the past three years, and neither time was accidental...
It is the second time since June the two sides have met to discuss their nuclear weapons. India and Pakistan also have launched a broader effort to resolve long-running disputes, including their competing claims over the Himalayan region of Kashmir. Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan told reporters the two sides were discussing "new safeguards to avoid any accidental nuclear war" — including giving advance notification of missile tests. Both delegations expressed optimism about the talks, scheduled to last two days. "We are happy to be in Islamabad," said Meera Shanker, head of the Indian delegation. "We are in favor of result-oriented talks." The head of the Pakistani side, Tariq Usman Haider, also said he hoped for "result-oriented" negotiations that would benefit the "governments and peoples of both the countries." During the June meeting, India and Pakistan agreed to extend a moratorium in nuclear tests and to set up a telephone hot line between the top bureaucrats in their foreign ministries. These agreements were expected to be finalized at this week's talks.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:05:58 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [13 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Fred - Is there any public information about the near misses?
Posted by: VAMark || 12/14/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Iraq War Crimes Trials to Begin Next Week
War crimes trials against the top figures in Saddam Hussein's ousted regime will begin next week, interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said Tuesday. He didn't say whether the former dictator would be among them. Many of Iraq's former Baath Party members have been in jail for more than a year, and few have been able to meet with counsel. Saddam's Jordan-based lawyers say they have not seen the former dictator, arrested a year ago Monday, and said holding trials so soon would be illegal. "The Iraqi court will be in violation of the basic rights of the defendants, which is to have access to legal counsel while being interrogated and indicted," Ziad al-Khasawneh said.

Officials had given conflicting accounts about when the trials before the Iraqi Special Tribunal would begin. They have also suggested that Saddam would not be tried first. "I can now tell you clearly and precisely that, God willing, next week the trials of the symbols of the former regime will start, one by one so that justice can take its path in Iraq," Allawi told the interim National Council, without saying who would be tried.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:03:59 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [17 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Since Lynne Stewart is unavailable (see above), is Ramsey Clark going to be the defense attorney? Or will it be someone from the ACLU? Perhaps the United Way or ICRTC will pay for the legal fees?
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 13:57 Comments || Top||

#2  Hang 'em high.
Posted by: Jonathan || 12/14/2004 14:21 Comments || Top||

#3  Let the games begin!

Pass the popcorn, would'ya?...
Posted by: mojo || 12/14/2004 23:40 Comments || Top||


Europe
Romania Opens Coalition Government Talks
President-elect Traian Basescu opened talks Tuesday to form a coalition government with a party formerly allied with his opponent and one representing ethnic Hungarians. Parties loyal to outgoing Prime Minister Adrian Nastase said they would also seek enough support in parliament to form a government.

Basescu, the reformist former mayor of Bucharest, defeated Nastase in the runoff vote Sunday, ending a decade of rule by successors to the country's former communist regime. He has pledged to fight corruption, prepare Romania to join the European Union by 2007 and forge closer ties to the United States and Great Britain to ensure the country's security. His centrist Justice and Truth Alliance is negotiating to form a new government with the Humanist Party, a small party that broke ranks with Nastase after he lost the election, and the Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania. "We are willing to form a government, even a minority one ... to carry on the fight against corruption and consolidate democracy," said Alexandru Boc, a senior Alliance official.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:02:29 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [13 views] Top|| File under:


Southeast Asia
Buddhist Teacher Killed in Thailand
Suspected Islamic rebels shot and killed a Buddhist high school teacher Tuesday, and an upscale hotel closed because of the violence in Muslim-dominated southern Thailand. Early Tuesday, a gunman on the back of a cycle of violence motorcycle shot and killed 42-year-old teacher Pinyo Wongrukawej in Narathiwat province's Sungai Padee district while he drove to work with his wife. "We believe that the insurgents were responsible for the shooting," said police Lt. Nethiwut Kingkhaew. Later in the day, Narathiwat Chamber of Commerce Chairman Panya Hongtrakul said the Royal Princess Hotel in Narathiwat's capital will close Jan. 1. It was not immediately clear if or when the hotel will reopen. Another southern hotel closed last month due to lack of business, Panya said.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 11:00:56 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  He must've been pretty harsh in his grading...

Time for the Thais to go medieval on the Muslims. The overt aggression of Islam's attempt to spread into Thailand deserves the best shot the Thais can throw. It's now or never, Toxin.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:14 Comments || Top||

#2  Oh-oh. Better get to work on some more of them Oragami birds.
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#3  Nah, the Thais, being good Buddhists, give one free shot. They are really capable of some nasty shit when they've given it - and received shit in return. I expect the south to heat up and become a serious battle zone.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:38 Comments || Top||

#4  Cake...or Death?
Posted by: Seafarious || 12/14/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#5  You can expect M'sia to get involved covertedly despite all denials because of the typical partisan factor. Already that Farish A Noor is denying about the madrassa's role: http://www.malaysiakini.com/opinionsfeatures/32098
Posted by: Wo || 12/14/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Tech
Judge Overturns Maryland's Anti-Spam
Get a rope!
A Montgomery County judge has ruled that Maryland's anti-spam law - one of the first attempts to control junk e-mail advertising - is unconstitutional because it seeks to regulate commerce outside the state's borders. The ruling by Circuit Judge Duke G. Thompson effectively overturns Maryland's 2002 Commercial Electronic Mail Act, which was the first state law passed to penalize people who sent spam. Thompson tossed out the case brought against a New York e-mail marketer by Eric Menhart, a George Washington University Law School student. "If this decision is upheld, it will serve as a road map for future defendants ... to argue that they cannot be held liable," David H. Kramer, a California attorney who specializes in Internet law, told The (Baltimore) Sun.

Congress and several state legislatures have passed laws to corral spam, the popular term for junk e-mail advertising. Critics complain that it chokes computer inboxes with solicitations for everything from male impotence drugs to weight counseling. Businesses lose millions of dollars trying to filter it, and individuals waste time managing it.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 10:59:01 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I was getting nowhere trying to google this guy... and whaddya know? His name was misspelled... he's Durke G. Thompson - and he has a history of interesting decisions. Here's a couple of articles about him... -1- -2-...
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#2  Wait a minute. The judge may have made some really awful decisions before (if the people who wrote what .com linked to are right), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's always wrong.

The Interstate Commerce clause, while wildly misapplied to federal laws since 1940, has been often used to knock down state laws. It depends on the exact wording of the Maryland law. If it punished someone sending an eMail from New York to Virginia, CC'ed to Maryland, it's a slam-dunk that the NY-VA eMail is not touchable by MD law. Now, whether the NY-MD eMail is allowable is another matter, I am not a constitutional law scholar.

No. I think this might well be appealed up the chain all the way.
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 14:50 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Ah, the enlightened Radical Islam Clerics
Pakistan has tried, without much success, to crack down on the madrasses, religious schools, which are often subsidized by Islamic conservatives from Saudi Arabia. Now a weakness has been found; child abuse. Many of the madrassa students are children under 14, and its common knowledge that some of the clerics and teachers running the madrasses will sexually molest their students. In the past, not much attention was paid to this, because it was so shameful. In the province of Punjab (the largest in Pakistan), there have been 500 complaints about such abuse in the last six months. The government decided to act. So far, 14 clerics have been arrested. While it consumes considerable police resources to investigate and prosecute these cases, the publicity makes more parents aware of the danger to their children, and results in fewer students at the religious schools. The staff of these schools often teach a very strict and hostile (to non Moslems) form of Islam.
Apparentley no better than other religions.
Posted by: plainslow || 12/14/2004 10:50:20 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They got Capone on tax evasion, shutting down a chunk of the jihadi fodder machine with child abuse charges strikes me as a double-win, heh. Go get 'em, Pervy - good on ya.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:45 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Politix
Dems to continue oversight effort
U.S. Senate Democrats Monday signaled they would continue to try and unofficially oversee the Bush administration. Sen. Byron L. Dorgan, D-N.D., and Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., announced several oversight hearings on a range of subjects next hear. The minority party in Congress argued the Republican leadership has skirted its responsibility for administration oversight as defined in the Constitution. But the hearings -- eight this year on subjects ranging from the deficit to U.S. contracting in Iraq -- have had little impact beyond political show because they are highly partisan affairs with no subpoena power.
Inadvertently, I think the democrats may have stumbled on to something, here. There should be permanent "committees of the opposition" holding frequent hearings to complain about what the majority do. Since the Congress and the President are separate, there should be one opposition committee for each. This continual barrage of *why* what is being done is "wrong" would force both the President and the majority party in Congress to detail why their decisions are "right". An annoying and noisy critic is often a good thing to help you improve yourself.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 10:24:59 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  This is a hold over from the Daschele buiness plan and it served him very well! This is just what the public was looking for when they turned the Senate over to Republican control. If I were a Red State Senator with a 'D' after my name I would be leary about attacking the current administration. I bet this is nothing other than Dems creating a 'I want to run for President' club and placing a label on it.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 12/14/2004 10:42 Comments || Top||

#2  I agree with you, anonymoose....but "Crying Wolf" also comes to mind.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#3  IIUC - the minority has no power to set up real oversight committees. They can have kangaroo courts with no power of subpoena or real authority, if it makes them feel good.
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:51 Comments || Top||

#4  It's kinda like night basketball for PEST sufferers, it keeps 'em off the streets.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:58 Comments || Top||

#5  night basketball lol!
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#6  This continual barrage of *why* what is being done is "wrong" would force both the President and the majority party in Congress to detail why their decisions are "right". An annoying and noisy critic is often a good thing to help you improve yourself.

Only if there's an impartial channel for the responses to get out. The modern press is much, much more likely to cover the "opposition" in agonizing detail with unquestioning fawning and ignore the response -- at least when there's a Republican in the White House. Once there's a Democrat in office, they'll ignore/twist any opposition to him.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 11:03 Comments || Top||

#7  Frank G: Granted, they can't cross-examine, but they can examine. They can bring an endless stream of "experts" of all kinds to slam what the President and Congress are doing. Now, here's the important point: the US Constitution is *not* designed to promulgate laws, it is designed to prevent laws from being passed. When the system is short-circuited to avoid this process, we get bad laws. So any additional stumbling blocks that can be erected to new laws being considered will most likely be a good thing. It would also help cut down on abuse of office, generating tons of fodder for angry bloggers to reveal to the public. Imagine if there had been a CSPAN-3, filled with intense and pointed republican attack, back in the Clinton administration? It would have been something like a 24/7 Rush Limbaugh show. Who knows what it might have prevented?
Posted by: Anonymoose || 12/14/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#8  Anonymoose - good points... but why do I have this nagging feeling that the Dhimmidonks aren't just anti-war or seeking to constrain unbridled rampant Pub Gov't abuse -- but, instead, are on the other side? And I mean The Other Side? Capisce? It might have a little to do with the way they were such total socialist moonbat looneytoon toolfool wanking whores during the last election season...
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:22 Comments || Top||

#9  Hell, I'm looking for evidence that the Democrats aren't on the other side.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 14:07 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Sheik aide admits contact with terrorists
Under cross-examination that at times grew testy, a co-defendant of activist lawyer Lynne Stewart admitted yesterday that he had sent money to and corresponded with at least 15 Islamic men convicted of terrorist charges, including Ramzi Yousef, mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Ahmed Sattar, a U.S. postal worker who served as a paralegal for Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman beginning soon after the sheik's arrest in July 1993, is accused of conspiring with Stewart and Mohamed Yousry, an interpreter for Abdel-Rahman, to pass messages from the imprisoned sheik to his terrorist followers. The sheik is serving a life term after having been convicted in 1995 of a plot to bomb New York landmarks and inciting followers to conduct the first World Trade Center attack. Stewart defended the sheik in that case. Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Morvillo grilled Sattar in Manhattan about his knowledge of the sheik, the Islamic Group and their goals to overthrow the secular Egyptian government. Sattar insisted the Islamic Group sought, "not to overthrow the government, but to replace it."
I guess it all depends on what your definition of "overthrow" is
Morvillo also questioned Sattar about a list of 14 convicted terrorists that was found in his possession that included their inmate numbers and mailing addresses.
Just a few "pen pals"
"You have corresponded with people convicted of terrorism-related charges?" Morvillo asked. "Yes," Sattar replied. "They were sending me letters asking for me to assist ... some were calling me that they are in need of money and, as a point of the charity for many Muslims, especially during Ramadan, I used to send them money. Yes, they are criminals, but they are also human beings." Morvillo asked Sattar if he knew Yousef, and Sattar replied, "I never met Ramzi Yousef ... I never spoke to him."
"Nope, nope, never talked to him"
"Wasn't it true you had some letters from him?" Morvillo asked. "Yes, I had a letter," Sattar said, explaining that he had published a Muslim newspaper and that after he stopped publishing it, Yousef "sent me a letter asking me why we stopped sending it to him. That was my only contact with him..."
"You said talk to him, never asked about writing. That's different"
Morvillo asked Sattar if "jihad" to Abdel-Rahman meant "jihad by the sword." Sattar insisted "jihad" was a struggle in one's heart, adding, "it could mean by hand, by intention and the act of opposing something." Morvillo showed him one of the sheik's sermons found among Sattar's possessions in which the sheik declares, "If God ... say do a jihad, it means do it with the sword, with the cannon, with the grenade and with the missile; this is jihad." Sattar conceded, "Right here in this sermon ... he is saying that, yes."
"Thank you, next witness"
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 10:13:23 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "sent money to" ???

Uh, isn't there some little legal problem with doing that, lawyer or not?

Channeling Dan Akroyd: "Lynne, you ignorant slut..."
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:09 Comments || Top||

#2  In what way is what Stewart was doing not "aid and comfort"? Why isn't she facing treason charges and the death penalty?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 12/14/2004 11:13 Comments || Top||

#3  I think the "Stewart Connection" is going to prove very interesting in very many ways. It must be an interesting journey, following her slime trail back through the years.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 11:18 Comments || Top||

#4  RC:
The punishment for treason is no longer the death penalty. It is one of:
1. Tenured chair at major university.
2. Star in major Hollywood movies
3. Presidential candidate.
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||

#5  jackal - ROFL!!! Excellent - and true, lol!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:57 Comments || Top||

#6  It's politically incorrect to pursue these kinds of cases. This one will probably evaporate and she'll get one of the penalties RC enumerated. One of these days, though, one of them will push it just an inch too far and it'll be cigarette and blindfold time.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 17:44 Comments || Top||


Britain
Brits Vote With Channel Selectors - BBC Ratings Freefall
EFL -
Viewing figures for the BBC's two main television channels have fallen to an all-time low in the week that the director general, Mark Thompson, announced swingeing cutbacks.
Swingeing?
BBC1's share of all television viewing is set to fall through the psychologically important 25 per cent barrier for the first time in the broadcaster's history, according to audience figures for this year up to 9 December. BBC2 has also seen its audience share plummet by almost 9 per cent over the same period. If these trends continue for the final three weeks of 2004, it will mean that for the first time less than 10 per cent of the television audience are tuning into BBC2 on average, while less than a quarter of viewers are watching BBC1.

The figures, which reflect the changing landscape of British television, show the combined audience share for BBC1 and BBC2 has fallen by almost 9 per cent since 2000. The decline, largely because of the rise of multi-channel viewing, has afflicted ITV1 even more severely than the BBC - since 2000 the channel's audience share has fallen 22 per cent to 22.8 per cent of all television viewers. In 2004, for the first time, multi-channel television has attracted higher overall viewing figures than either BBC1 or ITV1, with 26 per cent of the audience.
End the taxation without representation for non-leftists!
Posted by: Frank G || 12/14/2004 10:11:06 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [9 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Funny what people choose when given a choice! Do they have a choice to watch Fox or CNN?
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 12/14/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#2  The Market cannot be denied, no matter how much social engineering one tries.

Just so long as they don't cancel Dr. Who....

After all, it's almost time.
Posted by: anonymous2u || 12/14/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#3  it's just a thought, but maybe people get tired of listening to lies.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#4  Swingeing? Yea baby!
Posted by: Austin Powers || 12/14/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#5  Great sport. Shite news. I'm torn...
Posted by: Howard UK || 12/14/2004 11:26 Comments || Top||

#6  Ah...that accursed free market! damn them! damn them to hell!! And those equally accursed viewers! We are Mother BBC! And Mother knows best!

We now return to the BBC World News (as we determine it to be).
Posted by: PlanetDan || 12/14/2004 12:26 Comments || Top||

#7  Yes, indeed: "Demand a broader view..."
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:34 Comments || Top||

#8  Swingeing?

Sure, like the Ministry of Housinge. (It was spelt like that on the van.)
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 12/14/2004 12:51 Comments || Top||

#9  Do they have a choice to watch Fox or CNN?

There's Sky (whose market share dynamics the Indy interestingly omits to mention). BBC's just a tired old echo chamber for its own opinions (or as the imbecilic axeman of quality Greg Dyke put it: 'values'. You are free to vomit). The BBC was great when it reflected the nation's outlook in all directions and from all perspectives. Now that it's just a mouthpiece for middle class Guardianista PC hypocrisy it gets more boring with every cycle. It may be going out with a bang, rather than a whimper; the licence fee poll tax riots may never happen.

They've decided they need to send a wedge of their staff up to Manchester in order to make the BBC less London orientated. What a total waste of time and money. A typically moronic and self-destructive BBC farce. Watch the minor suits scrambling over themselves to leave those departments destined for gulag status.
Posted by: Krang || 12/14/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#10  Make that '...whimper, not with a bang...'.
Posted by: Krang || 12/14/2004 13:02 Comments || Top||

#11  The BBC may have some quality issues but the overall journalistic performance is still unmatched. Let's hope it does not orient itself on CNN. When I'm in the States I always laugh my ass of on their opinionated unprofessional reports. The only thing where they have an edge is speed, given that they are the most sucessfull pivate channel. But for real background information and quality sources...nah.
Posted by: Slomort Shoque7331 || 12/14/2004 13:30 Comments || Top||

#12  Hi Slomort. I don't need to be in the UK to laugh my ass off at the BBC's hilariously slanted middle east coverage or their incompetence when it comes to coverage of anything related to US domestic affairs, or business or technology.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:38 Comments || Top||

#13  This only partially reflects the interesting story, which is the heavy news consumers (news junkies) now get their news from the Internet. I hardly ever watch TV news these days and when I do its mostly to see which stories get pushed with what spin, i.e. not for the news itself.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 14:01 Comments || Top||


Arabia
Royal, and Fragile, Saudi Air Force
December 14, 2004: How good is the Royal Saudi Air Force? Well, on paper, it is a formidable force. The Saudis have built their Air Force around variants of the F-15 Eagle (about 70 F-15C, 22 F-15D, and 72 F-15S). They are able to buy the latest available electronic systems. If the Americans won't sell it, someone in Europe might, which is how Saudi Arabia became one of the major users of the Tornado, possessing a force on par with Italy's.

Saudi F-15S strike fighters have dumbed-down electronics (particularly the APG-70 radars), which does not make the Saudis happy. Saudi Arabia has had minor incidents with Iran in the past, and Iran back then was able to buy the latest air force equipment. The problem is Israel, which is also a heavy user of the F-15, and vigorously opposes Saudi Arabia (which officially proclaims that Israel must be destroyed) getting the most modern F-14 systems. Thus Saudi Arabia has not been able to acquire AMRAAMs air-to-air missiles. Israel also imposes, vis the United States conditions, like where the Saudis can base their F-15s. For example, they cannot be operated out of Tabuk, in northwestern Saudi Arabia. But while they have a lot of modern aircraft (in addition to their F-15 force, they have 24 Tornado ADVs and 48 Tornado IDSs), how effective are they?

Saudi pilots have been able to defeat Iranian and Iraqi opponents. However, the brief successes have masked problems. Even simple maintenance of military equipment is often farmed out to foreign contractors. For instance, in 1990, the Saudis complained that their M-60 main battle tanks were defective. The problem turned out to be failure to change a filter. Similar problems exist with the Royal Saudi Air Force, and this is much more degrading to its combat ability. A tank with a mechanical problem that comes up in training operations will often be recoverable and fixable. A plane with problems during a training mission will crash, rendering it as much of a loss as if it were shot down in combat — and it will sometimes kill a pilot (or the two-man crew), which is a multi-million dollar investment in and of itself. The Saudis can afford the pilots, and they can afford a lot of help from expatriates for maintenance.

The Saudis have a good force, but its effectiveness is heavily reliant on good ties with the United States for vital spare parts and maintenance. Should ties with the United States go downhill, the force of F-15s — the bulk of the modern Saudi air force — will be grounded because the American sources of spare parts and expatriate contractors will be pulled out. In essence, the Royal Saudi Air Force's effectiveness will be high as long as they stay on good terms with the United States.
And keep their expatriate contract maintenance troops from bugging out one step ahead of the jihadis
Posted by: Steve || 12/14/2004 10:01:00 AM || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [12 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Insh'allah's a bitch on the maintenance of high-tech equipment - say anything more complex than a crowbar.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:06 Comments || Top||

#2  Don't forget the hammer, .com. So very useful for pounding sand, so I imagine they've become quite adept with it ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 11:28 Comments || Top||

#3  tw - Lol! Excellent, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#4  Only foreign market for the F-14 was Iran, not Israel. In air wars, training is everything, and if you know you don't have a chance in Hell of winning the battle in the air, might as well lose it on the ground by downing the aircraft when ordered to launch.
Posted by: longtime lurker || 12/14/2004 11:34 Comments || Top||

#5  This article is relevant to one posted last week on Saudization although that one focused on the civilian sector.

There was a gap of 9 years between my jobs in Saudi. Willahi, nothing had changed in the interim. By this, I mean the willingness of the Saudi govt (SAG) to push for meaningful training programs that actually cut deadwood rather than recycle it ad nauseum. The only place I know of in the Kingdom that creates competent people is the King Fahad U of petroleum and minerals. But that was basically a creation of Aramco.

I worked in the aviation field there and heard a lot of anecdotal talk about why Saudis can't maintain planes (from westerners) and anecdotal talk about why westerners don't want to train competent Saudi personnel (from Saudis) Obviously, the real answer is in the middle for all training done in-Kingdom, but with more than a whiff of blame on the Saudi side.
Posted by: chicago mike || 12/14/2004 13:09 Comments || Top||

#6  That F-15S modified Strike Eagle, the S stands for slaved.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 16:55 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
Welcome to capitalism, North Korean comrades
A creeping revolution, both social and economic, is under way in North Korea and it seems there's no turning back. For decades, the country served as the closest possible approximation of an ideal Stalinist state. But the changes in its economy that have taken place after 1990 have transformed the country completely and, perhaps, irreversibly. For decades, Pyongyang propaganda presented North Korea as an embodiment of economic self-sufficiency, completely independent from any other country. This image sold well, especially in the more credulous part of the Third World and among the ever-credulous leftist academics. The secret of its supposed self-sufficiency was simple: the country received large amounts of direct and indirect aid from the Soviet Union and China, but never admitted this in public. Though frequently annoyed by such "ingratitude", neither Moscow nor Beijing made much noise since both communist giants wanted to maintain, at least superficially, friendly relations with their small, capricious ally.

But collapse of the Soviet Union made clear that claims of self-sufficiency were unfounded. From 1991, the North Korean economy went into free fall. Throughout 1991-99, the gross national product (GNP) of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) nearly halved. The situation became unbearable in 1996, when the country was struck by a famine that took, by the best available estimates, about 600,000 lives. The famine could have been prevented by a Chinese-style agricultural reform, but this option was politically impossible: such a reform would undermine the government's ability to control the populace.

The control on daily lives was lost anyway. What we have seen in North Korea over the past 10 years can be best described as collapse of what used to be rigid Stalinism from below. In the Soviet Union of the late 1950s and in China of the late 1970s, Stalinism-Maoism was dismantled from above, through a chain of deliberate reforms planned and implemented by the government. In North Korea the same thing happened, but the system disintegrated from below, despite weak and ineffectual attempts to keep it intact.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 08:03 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Interesting article re yesterday's discussion on how long it will take to fix Nork post Kimmie. The article says they already have bottom up capitalism and it only took a few years to re-establish.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 14:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Indeed, phil_b - there was some excellent commentary and it bodes well for something less terrible than a self-imposed genocide.

Fred - that is one awesome graphic! Of course, it prolly sez something about killing the Imperialist Running Dogs with Songun Spirit and Juicy Juche (10% real fruit juche!), but it's still a killer image, heh.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 14:32 Comments || Top||


Britain
Navy commander ordered back to UK
Posted by: Howard UK || 12/14/2004 07:49 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  WTF? Mutiny on the HMS Somerset?
Posted by: Rawsnacks || 12/14/2004 9:43 Comments || Top||

#2  Probably piped in Fox news.
Posted by: RWV || 12/14/2004 17:16 Comments || Top||


-Short Attention Span Theater-
Common Sense
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 03:01 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [13 views] Top|| File under:

#1  New Yorker columnist James Surowiecki

It's tought to believe that a NYT columnist would possess common sense.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:03 Comments || Top||


How the brain recognises a face
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 03:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The brain goes through three separate stages to decide if it recognises a face, scientists claim. A team from University College London says the first assesses a face's physical aspects. The second decides if it is known or unknown. If it is a recognisable face, the third part puts a name to it.

They needed a study to figure this out??? May I ask for a PHD by suggesting that assessing the physical aspects of anything is usually the first step to recognizing it? Then if we indeed recognize it, it usually has a name attached. Big deal.
Posted by: Rafael || 12/14/2004 3:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Just had to say a mate worked on this - it's more about finding which part of the brain does what.. in order to produce a cure for dementia etc. I think I was scanned for this study too.
Posted by: Howard UK || 12/14/2004 5:36 Comments || Top||

#3  "Facial recognition is a very puzzling and complex process." It's a process of astonishing precision. Capable of differentiating an almost unlimited number of faces and recognize those faces under severely degraded conditions. Yet its not related to any major physical characteristics on a face. This can be demonstrated by getting people to recognize pictures of indivdiual sheep they have seen previously (which have ears, eyes, nose, chin just like a human face). Most people can't do this.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 6:07 Comments || Top||

#4  Bah. Humans all look the same to me.
Posted by: Krang || 12/14/2004 6:50 Comments || Top||

#5  The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat is got a bizarre look at this sort of recognition.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 7:36 Comments || Top||

#6  So which type of dementia did they diagnose, Howard? ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 7:48 Comments || Top||

#7  So why is my name recall s*ithouse?
Always remember a face though.
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 8:13 Comments || Top||

#8  Maybe I can get a PhD for research on how to recognize a Joseph Mendiola comment.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#9  they ought to study my brain since I am a mutant possessing only the first two functions.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 9:32 Comments || Top||

#10  It's the third step I have trouble with.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 12/14/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#11  I support all research in this area because I have the damnedest time with this. As Krang says, all humans look alike to me. The only thing I have to go on is general body type (short, tall, skinny, fat) and hair color.

When I worked in Sydney I had three dark-haired female colleagues. For a long time I was never sure which one I was talking to. Took me about a month to realize that one was a lot taller than the others (they were all shorter than I, and all those short people look alike: like the tops of their heads).
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 12/14/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#12  Angie, interesting! For most people height is not a factor, which is why we can recognize faces on TV.
Posted by: phil_b || 12/14/2004 14:40 Comments || Top||

#13  A shame more politicians don't have Angie's condition.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 15:40 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Iran's first pop revolutionaries
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 02:50 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "If you go to Iranian movies all you see is misery - nothing else. People think Iran is like this - everything is a desert, all the people are crying..."

"We wanted to show the real Iran."


Good luck to them , they got a job tougher than any Scorpians concert when the Berlin Wall fell hehe .

Next there is gonna be some free thinking skateboard mullah dudes shouting 'RADICAL DUDE !!!'
Posted by: MacNails || 12/14/2004 6:43 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
Slavery: Mauritania's best kept secret
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 02:45 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  We'll get Al Sharpton right on that.
Posted by: Don || 12/14/2004 8:53 Comments || Top||

#2  slavery remains Mauritania's best kept open secret.

Thanks to the silence of the MSM and Amnsasty, Jessie Jackson and the women's groups, the world will continue to focus on the "horrors" of Gitmo and ignore women like this. Shameful.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#3  International human rights organisations such as Amnesty International are prevented from entering the country to conduct research.

That and the lack of decent 4-star hotels, no cheap fax/internet access, the problem not seen as a worthy fund-raising opportunity....
Posted by: Pappy || 12/14/2004 11:24 Comments || Top||

#4  Typical BBC. Too political correct to mention that the enslavers are Arab Muslims.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 12/14/2004 21:35 Comments || Top||


-Short Attention Span Theater-
Are You Free?
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 02:33 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [10 views] Top|| File under:

#1  No I'm washing my hair for the next 2 eons.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 9:09 Comments || Top||

#2  this is worthy of the sleeping child on the toilet graphic.

Compared to this woman, I'd say I'm free. Am I "Free"? But I guess I don't need to worry about semantics or care about this woman. My life was preordained good, hers bad. According to this article, I needn't concern myself.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 9:57 Comments || Top||

#3  "Are you free?"

No, but I'm fairly cheap.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 10:57 Comments || Top||

#4  Soooo, is he saying that Libertarianism is fraudulent?
Posted by: Pappy || 12/14/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#5  Believe I will exercise my free will to go contemplate this weighty matter over a beer or two. Hopefully, I will get drunk before getting too far into this. As Fred says, I am not free but fairly cheap also.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 12/14/2004 11:25 Comments || Top||

#6  Reminds me of the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate.
Posted by: eLarson || 12/14/2004 11:28 Comments || Top||

#7  Even if you accept Borders' reductionist definition of humans as purely material, he ignores the insights from complexity theory re: how intelligence can emerge from the interactions of limited parts.

He's arguing about a century too late. Ironic that he thinks he's cutting edge.
Posted by: rkb || 12/14/2004 12:12 Comments || Top||

#8  If it is a probability that that I click on the Comments link, then it is a certainty that you will read this. So much for your free will. Hahahahaha!
Posted by: john || 12/14/2004 15:16 Comments || Top||

#9  john - I think that deserved the full BWAHAHAHA, heh!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 15:26 Comments || Top||

#10  I must be free, as I used my free will not to read this. It would probably hurt my head.
Posted by: tu3031 || 12/14/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#11  Descartes used to be, but now he isn't. And Bishop Berkeley's dead, y'know.
Posted by: Fred || 12/14/2004 15:57 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
Robert Kagan: Power and Weakness
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 01:59 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [12 views] Top|| File under:

#1  That's an old piece that became part of Kagan's book Of Paradise and Power. Check it out if you haven't.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 10:14 Comments || Top||

#2  Interesting, BH - you probably answered a question I had:

Which came first, this Euro-pandering / think-tankish wankoff or the The Crisis of Legitimacy: America and the World, lecture - delivered at The Grand Hyatt, Melbourne, Tuesday 9 November 2004 and posted on RB a few weeks ago.

Quite a different slant on the same facts, no? Must be a writer's lament that the audience often demands a rewrite for spin's sake. So, I wonder, what does Bobby really think?
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:28 Comments || Top||

#3  Hmm, I don't think I would describe OPaP as "Euro-pandering". His main argument seems to be that the European socialist "paradise" is an artificial construct which is possible only because of the existence of US power, and that the US cannot itself enter the paradise because, well, somebody has to man the walls. He doesn't come off as openly antagonistic to the Eutopians, but he realizes what side their bread is buttered on.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#4  Okay, I follow you - but not forgiving him on the spin thingy, however - that first paragraph did a fair job of teaching me how to seethe properly... The tone of they are so enlightened and moving onto a higher plane of existence while Americans are still mired in the past practicing man's inhumanity to man shit didn't sit well with me. Go figure, huh? Lol! :-)
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 10:56 Comments || Top||

#5  here's the nutshell:

But appeasement is never a dirty word to those whose genuine weakness offers few appealing alternatives. For them, it is a policy of sophistication.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:57 Comments || Top||

#6  .com, I understand how you reached that conclusion. It sounds like the same garbage we get from the Euros all the time, but if you read it again you will note that he is not expressing any moral judgement on us or them. He is not suggesting that the Euros are evolving, or even right, just that they are turning into a "self-contained world of laws and rules, etc." Which is all well and good, until the world outside decides to make problems. That's where the US comes in.

"Mired in history, exercising power in the anarchic Hobbesian world where international laws and rules are unreliable and where true security and the defense and promotion of a liberal order still depend on the possession and use of military might."

That's the outside world. We are in it, keeping the Euros safe and warm in their beds. We have to be, because we are defending ourselves first and foremost, but the Euros have taken advantage of this to divert funds from their own defense to their socialist programs. One could argue that it makes us look bad, still knocking heads among the barbarians. One could also argue that it makes the Euros look worse by retreating inward and leaving the task of defending them to others who can't reap the benefits of their "enlightened" policies.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#7  You're bang-on - and I "got it" - I just recalled a much different piece from more recently and realized the facts and points were basically the same, yet this one is assembled and spun to a different POV / audience. I'll give Kagen credit for being an excellent writer, absolutely so, and whack him about the head when he appears to give "legitimacy" to "phantasy", heh. I recall giving less quarter to my daughter, who I love more than my life, when she strayed into phantasy - why on Earth would I give Kagen such leeway, lol? Points taken, and believe me I got it - I was comparing the two articles before I wrote a word.
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#8  My apologies. I meant no offense.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 11:59 Comments || Top||

#9  No, no - don't take me wrong... You're right, he does make the points you identified. I'm merely saying he was definitely more subtle here than in the other piece and this article is undated -- I incorrectly assumed that it was more recent than the 11/9/04 article. Your analysis is deadly accurate, as usual!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#10  Thanks. According to the url, the article is from June, 2002.
Posted by: BH || 12/14/2004 13:10 Comments || Top||

#11  *slaps forehead*
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 13:13 Comments || Top||

#12  The Kagan piece on legitimacy was a speech he gave a month ago in Australia (I posted it on Rantburg). Kagan is dedicated to interpreting the US and Bush admin to the Europeans (he works in Belgium) and to a lesser extent helping us understand the Euros. I think that's a worthy endeavor. Chirac and Schroeder's day has passed, and the next wave of European leaders will not be so obnoxious.
Posted by: lex || 12/14/2004 13:29 Comments || Top||

#13  Let's rename the EU as "the Shire."

"If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so."
Posted by: jackal || 12/14/2004 14:58 Comments || Top||

#14  jackal - ROFL!!! - and that's twice today!
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 15:00 Comments || Top||

#15  Go for it Jackal! It's never been done thrice! If you get lucky .com will send you a 50 DVD collection of pictures you just knew were there somewhere.
Posted by: Shipman || 12/14/2004 17:13 Comments || Top||

#16  jackal - Ship gets a commission - so his spiel is slightly tainted by merc sentiments, heh. ;-)
Posted by: .com || 12/14/2004 18:49 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Iraq Without a Plan
Posted by: tipper || 12/14/2004 01:56 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Viet Nam! Quagmire!!!!!!!
Posted by: trailing wife || 12/14/2004 7:50 Comments || Top||

#2  Thanks to Mike O'Hanlon, we now have a template for future undertakings of a similar nature.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 12/14/2004 9:49 Comments || Top||

#3  The standard explanation for this lack of preparedness among most defense and foreign policy specialists, and the U.S. military as well, is that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and much of the rest of the Bush administration insisted on fighting the war with too few troops and too Polyannaish a view of what would happen inside Iraq once Saddam was overthrown. This explanation is largely right.

Oh? How about that the Umited States military was designed to win conflicts involving defending countries, not conquering them. Perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is whether we should be in the business of occupying enemy countries before we utterly destroy them. It seems to me the subjugation of Germany and Japan made the subsequent occupation and rehabilitation of those countries run more smoothly than Iraq. We should anounce now that if we go to war again, we will engage in total warfare and achieve the utter destruction of our enemy. Anything less will lead to quagmires like Iraq.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 12/14/2004 10:06 Comments || Top||

#4  The satisfaction of quality remains, long after the pain of price is forgotten

History will treat authors like these in much the same way that it treats those who whined about the details in our war with Hitler. It will provide their works with a prominent place in the rubbish bin.

BTW, loser, another mass grave was found in Iraq today.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 10:16 Comments || Top||

#5  MD: Perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is whether we should be in the business of occupying enemy countries before we utterly destroy them. It seems to me the subjugation of Germany and Japan made the subsequent occupation and rehabilitation of those countries run more smoothly than Iraq.

This is the one thing that the experts opponents on strategic bombing never write about. The shibboleth of the day is that killing large numbers of enemy civilians is supposed to make them stronger. But the evidence on the ground is quite different. Everywhere that such attacks have happened, the population has been thoroughly cowed, in most cases for generations.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 12/14/2004 11:47 Comments || Top||

#6  Perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is whether we should be in the business of occupying enemy countries before we utterly destroy them. It seems to me the subjugation of Germany and Japan made the subsequent occupation and rehabilitation of those countries run more smoothly than Iraq.

The old "we shoulda spotted them Guderian and 20 panzer divisions strategy". Look, Rummy KNEW that wasnt gonna be what happened. It was his job to plan for Iraq, not WW2. He also knew what army we had (and indeed, hes opposed developing a force for nation building). He should have planned accordingly. If he thought we were still going to have this on our hands 20 months post invasion, and that it was worth doing anyway, he should have given more sense of what we were up against (though in all fairness, most of the polyanash comments came from Cheney, and Rummy sometimes gets tarred with Cheneys misstatements)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 11:58 Comments || Top||

#7  im currently reading Churchills history of WW2. Churchill certainly whined when somebody screwed up the details. When somebody screwed up enough, he fired them.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 12:00 Comments || Top||

#8  So LH, I'm curious. Who do you think could have done a better job in his position?
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:04 Comments || Top||

#9  by the way, hanlons report is worth reading in full.

2b - I dont have a list of names. Im sure Bush can find someone.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 12:07 Comments || Top||

#10  Im sure Bush can find someone.

That's a bit of a cop out. I'd wager that it's not easy to find a qualified individual willing to make the tough decisions and who is willing to endure the constant public harping, polticial backstabbing and personal threats to saftery.

What exactly do you hope to gain by going over what went wrong? I don't understand why you think that is so helpful, especially if you don't have any idea who could do/have done it better.
Posted by: 2b || 12/14/2004 12:19 Comments || Top||

#11  Ok, i'll bite (but i DONT have time for an extended discussion)

1. I have long thought that the WOT needed broader political support, and should not be run exclusively by Bush loyalists. That would lead to a Dem, like Lieberman, or to a McCain. BUT - the issue here is technical competence, specifically on planning. While an argument can be made that you fire someone for gross incompetence even if you dont know the successor will be better (at least the successor now knows you hold people accountable) not all agree with that, and i wont make it. I also realize that it sounds self serving (since im a dem) and so i will limit myself to admin loyalists
2. One would like to think theres SOMEONE in DoD whos BOTH Bush loyal, and NOT implicated in the planning screwup, as both Feith and Rummy seem to be. Wolfie? I very much admire the man, and hope against hope that he spoke out for better planning and more troops - but not being privy to inside communications, I dont know that. So I will limit my list to people not currently in the DoD.

3. On the other hand it needs to be someone with nat security expertise, and capable of handling an org like DoD (clearly condi was better pick for State, than DoD) So, a bush loyalist, with nat. security creds, not now at DoD. Who does that leave? Two names come up - A. John Bolton B. Jim Baker Im not sure what role Bolton had in Iraqi planning, but i assume hes not implicated in the mistakes. Baker, for all that i personally dislike him (for his role wrt Israel in the elder Bush admin, and his role in Florida 2000) might be the right person for DoD.

So I have some idea - but i cant vouch that they would have done better - in particular i dont know what they were saying to Bush in private, prewar.

I really dont have time to discuss this matter further. It is wholly academic, as theres no indication that the admin is thinking of replacing Rummy.

There is another reason why its important to over this, aside from holding individuals, and the admin in general, accountable. There are many individuals, who are not going to blame this on poor planning, but are going to judge that ANY US intervention of this kind is doomed to the same problems, and who will use that argument when future interventions are debated, whether in Iran, North Korea, or elsewhere. It is essential, when we judge policy in those cases, that we recognize to what extent our problems in Iraq were intrinsic to this kind of intervention, and to what extent they could have been avoided with better planning.

It is also essential, to the extent that we have encountered problems because of limits on the force we had availbale, that we take that into account in what we do with our future force structure.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 12/14/2004 14:02 Comments || Top||

#12  We should anounce now that if we go to war again, we will engage in total warfare and achieve the utter destruction of our enemy.

Don't count on it. Too many people seem to have this peculiar notion that such things aren't supposed to happen in war.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 12/14/2004 18:17 Comments || Top||



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Tue 2004-12-14
  Abbas calls for end of armed uprising
Mon 2004-12-13
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