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Rebels Capture Gadhafi's Bab al-Aziziya Compound, House
Today's Headlines
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-Lurid Crime Tales-
Leb: One Killed, Another Wounded in Marriage Dispute
[An Nahar] One person was killed and another maimed after several members of the Nasreddine family opened fire on the house of their relatives at the town of al-Mansoura in Hermel, the National News Agency reported on Monday.
"He's my husband." WHACK
"He's my father." WHACK
"He's my husband."WHACK
"He's my...

"Several Nasreddine family youth opened fire at 9:30 pm on Sunday at the house of Hussein Nasreddine," the NNA said.

The man had kidnapped a girl from the same family in order to marry her; however, a dispute between the family members erupted over the issue.
Not enough goats in trade maybe?
Hussein died, while his father was shot at the back and was transferred to al-Batoul hospital for treatment, NNA reported.

The news agency said investigations are ongoing to arrest the suspects.
Forget it, Jake. It's...al-Mansoura town.
Posted by: Fred || 08/23/2011 00:00 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:


-Signs, Portents, and the Weather-
5.9 magnitude quake rocks East Coast
Anybody feel it? Nothing up here.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 14:13 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I felt it. The house shook, light fixture looked like it was going to fall out of the ceiling.
Posted by: Fred || 08/23/2011 14:23 Comments || Top||

#2  Wow. Not used to that in Baltimore I'll bet.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 14:25 Comments || Top||

#3  The Feds might want to reconsider opening the gulf up for oil production. Haliburton.
Posted by: bman || 08/23/2011 14:28 Comments || Top||

#4  Felt nuthin in NE OH.
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 08/23/2011 14:41 Comments || Top||

#5  Oooooops...sorry.
Posted by: Halliburton:Earthquake/Tsunami Division || 08/23/2011 14:45 Comments || Top||

#6  First earthquake I've ever felt on the east coast.
Posted by: Fred || 08/23/2011 15:01 Comments || Top||

#7  Coming up next: "Catastrophic" Hurricanes...
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 15:02 Comments || Top||

#8  bah! We use 5.9's to stir the ice in our cocktails
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 15:30 Comments || Top||

#9  Yeah, felt it in central Pennsylvania. Was freaked out when we looked out the window & there was this column of smoke; apparently unrelated, some 94-year-old chose that moment to burn down his workshop while playing around with an industrial welder.

People are reporting feeling it all the way up in Connecticut. It was relatively strong for the East Coast, and fairly shallow. I haven't heard of any serious damage anywhere, yet - nothing even as impressive as grandpa arc-welder's little shed fire.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/23/2011 15:36 Comments || Top||

#10  Felt it in White River Junction, Vermont. Was on the phone with a guy in DC: HE felt it.

Tu3031, my daughter working in Cambridge, MA felt it, but she works for a geological sciences company, and was all excited.
Posted by: Whiskey Mike || 08/23/2011 16:36 Comments || Top||

#11  Felt it in Kingsport, Tennessee.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 08/23/2011 16:41 Comments || Top||

#12  I was in the shower. I didn't feel a thing.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 16:53 Comments || Top||

#13  Having spent most of my life on the East coast, it was the most earthquake I've ever experienced. Whole office building felt like it was moving; not violently but just kind of a slow shake.
Posted by: eltoroverde || 08/23/2011 17:12 Comments || Top||

#14  Forget to mention that I'm in downtown DC.
Posted by: eltoroverde || 08/23/2011 17:22 Comments || Top||

#15  Reports it was felt in Atlanta, New Burnswick, Columbus, Ohio and Totonto. What is amazing is how far it travels here.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 17:23 Comments || Top||

#16  An unoccupied building in Camden NJ partially collapsed. Probably on landfill.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 17:24 Comments || Top||

#17  DC Quake Tweets from the Examiner:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/top-politically-themed-earthquake-tweets
Posted by: Mercutio || 08/23/2011 17:26 Comments || Top||

#18  my wife works nights and says it woke her up (northwest GA). i was driving at the time and felt nothing. the cashier at the gas-n-go says the display on the counter shuddered a little.

pretty trippy. a comment being cut and pasted around on facebook:

Breaking News: it's just been established by the administration that the DC earthquake occurred on a rare and obscure faultline, apparently known as "Bush's Fault".
Posted by: abu do you love || 08/23/2011 17:57 Comments || Top||

#19  I work in northern Virginia, about 40 miles from the epicenter. The earthquake started just as I got on the elevator to go downstairs. I figured that the cables were coming loose or something.
After that they evacuated the building. Unfortunately, they made us go back work.
Posted by: Rambler in Virginia || 08/23/2011 18:09 Comments || Top||

#20  Pretty noticeable in Manhattan- Financial District. Sort of like a subway train passing under us (w/o the sound) ... but we were on the 10th floor.

Lots of people walked out into the street and acted a bit squirrely; then calmed down and went back to work.

One thing- I am very unimpressed with what I am hearing about the lack of communications resilience. My Verizon/Android phone was frozen and knocked out...
Posted by: Free Radical || 08/23/2011 18:15 Comments || Top||

#21  Obama is saying the quake originated at a little known fault just south of DC known as "Bush's fault"
Posted by: retired LEO || 08/23/2011 18:25 Comments || Top||

#22  coworkers as far away as Detroit felt it, as did my sister in Cleveland. Being right outside of Dulles airport, to say that I felt it was an understatement...
Posted by: IG-88 || 08/23/2011 18:29 Comments || Top||

#23  You mean Bush's crack...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 18:54 Comments || Top||

#24  Felt it in Richmond - and how! I've felt other earthquakes, but this is the worst I've felt in Virginia. Hi-rise downtown building shook (and swayed, according to the people outside taking a break). We all said, "Yep, that was an earthquake" and kept on working.
Posted by: Barbara || 08/23/2011 19:10 Comments || Top||

#25  Hummm -- didn't feel a thing in Texas. So must have been the Bush Fault Revenge

My fav tweet of the day --jstrevino: Sorry about the earthquake, DC. That was just Rick Perry getting off his horse.
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 19:31 Comments || Top||

#26  Not absolut certain about it yet, but I believe I may had been awaken from sleep by a minor tremblor here in Agana/Hagatna.

MORE > I did visually oberve a very large, late Nite = Post-Midnite, "lingering" EM Skyball in Guam's night skies oer EASTPAC, in the strategic direction of MIcronesia, Hawaiian Islands, + US West-Coast = CONUS, + despite INCLEMENT = RAINY WEATHER includ RAIN CLOUDS. The ball was seemingly very bright + oblong but also slow to disappear or dissipate, unlike the majority of others which I had also observed in Quakes prior.

EARLIER IN THE DAY, circa late afternoon 08/23rd 5-6PM Guam time, I also did observe VARIOUS STRESS MOTIONS IN MICRO/NANO-FAULT LINES AROUND THE AGANA SHOPPING CENTER + AGANA MCDONALDS.

Small Flocks of local Birds also seemingly unable to make their minds which parking lot
tree(s) to land on.

BEST WAY FOR ME TO DESCRIBE IT WOULD BE THE GROUND SUDDENLY "SLIPPING/SHEARING" LATERALLY FOR ABNORMALLY = NON-ROUTINE EXTENDED DISTANCES WHILE SIMUL ALSO SEEMINGLY "BULGING/EXPANDING" + ALSO TRYING TO "CRUSH" ONE LINE AGZ THE OTHER(S).
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 08/23/2011 19:46 Comments || Top||

#27  The Government was shut down for a short time resulting in a temporary rise in the economy.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 08/23/2011 19:47 Comments || Top||

#28  Just talked to my brother in California. He thinks this is hilarious.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 20:16 Comments || Top||

#29  So I had literally just finishing a mouseclick when ... boom-shaka-laka. Yeah, my work: it is earthshaking.
Posted by: eLarson || 08/23/2011 20:38 Comments || Top||

#30  #28 - tu - yeah quake snobbery is in force. Seriously though, a 5.9 is an annual thing or so here. I can imagine when you haven't been in one how it'd feel.....
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 20:52 Comments || Top||

#31  RENSE > [Fox News Insider] QUAKE MAY HAVE TILTED WASHINGTON MONUMENT | DC POLICE OFFICER:THERES CONCERN THAT WASHINGTON MONUMENT MAY BE TILTING FOLLOWING 5.9 MAGNITUDE EARTHQUAKE.

IMO the 1990's future [Bill] "CLINTON TOWER/MONUMENT" = EX-WASHINGTON MONUMENT? does appear to be in a lean-to.

[GALILEO GRAVITY EXPERIMENTS here].
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 08/23/2011 21:24 Comments || Top||

#32  @Frank G - If my hand hadn't been touching the desk I'm not sure I'd have felt it. Shook the hell out of the suspended ceiling though. The scary part out here is: we didn't design these buildings for earthquakes.
Posted by: eLarson || 08/23/2011 21:28 Comments || Top||

#33  yeah, I get that...
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 21:35 Comments || Top||

#34  Overprimed the geophysical seismic shot, did ya, Halliburton:Earthquake/Tsunami Division?
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/23/2011 21:47 Comments || Top||

#35  5.3 earthquake in southern Colorado as well, near Trinidad.
Posted by: swksvolFF || 08/23/2011 22:27 Comments || Top||

#36  Probably the worst hit was the National Cathedral. Here are some pics of the damage.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 08/23/2011 22:57 Comments || Top||

#37  next International Building Code will have minimum seismic standards for areas previously thought unaffected. Odd are 99:1
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 23:01 Comments || Top||

#38  Fox News reported the Washington Monument was "leaning" which got them jumped all over. As it should.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 23:06 Comments || Top||


Al Gore goes nuts
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 00:00 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  THIS is not news.
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 08/23/2011 0:04 Comments || Top||

#2  Goes?
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 0:18 Comments || Top||

#3  Note to Al Gore,

The reason we can't come to an agreement is you refuse to admit you are wrong about AGHGs causing catastrophic warming.

Actually one of the few things we know with reasonable certainty is that CO2 emissions aren't a problem.

There are about 20 other anthropogenic GHGs that we almost nothing about, except that governments are lying about their emission levels.
Posted by: phil_b || 08/23/2011 5:33 Comments || Top||

#4  Ik zie dat we een forum van volledige milieu-experts.
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 6:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Oh, so only experts are allowed to discuss this? What about other non-linear dynamical systems like the economy?
Posted by: Glusoger Gruter1463 || 08/23/2011 6:27 Comments || Top||

#6  Actually, global warming (greenhouse gases) is NOT non-linear. Nice try...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 6:28 Comments || Top||

#7  Clever bit of misdirection asshole. I said "systems". And you didn't answer my question.

The Climate System: An Overview
A.P.M.Baede, E. Ahlonsou, Y.Ding, D. Schimel

"The response of the climate to the internal variability of the climate system and to external forcings is further complicated by feedbacks and non-linear responses of the components."
Posted by: Glusoger Gruter1463 || 08/23/2011 6:55 Comments || Top||

#8  1. No ad-hominim attacks
2. Global warming via greenhouse gases is a linear system. The higher the net addition of CO2, methane added to the atmosphere, the warmer the average temperature a planet gets. Now, it can be regulated by absorption of these gases by photosynthetic plants and bacteria (CO2) and by absorption by the oceans (CO2 and methane) but it this theory is not non-linear. Granted, climate theory is non-linear, as in predicting the weather, but greenhouse theory is not. The warming of the planet effects the climate, but not the other way around. Well, how do we know all this
a) we have an example in our own solar system...Venus, which has a runaway greenhouse effect
b) Permian Mass Extinction (or 'The Great Dying') ~ 250 million years ago, which resulted in 90% of the species on the planet dying. Due to Siberia Traps basalt flood eruption, but principle is the same. Eruption caused large amounts of greenhouse gases (CO2, SO2, etc) to be emitted causing global warming, raising avg temp of planet by 5C. This was enough to raise ocean temperatures so that methane hydrates frozen under oceanic sediment to melt and be emitted to atmosphere causing another 5-10C rise. This is NOT theory, it is fact, because it has happened before.

Unfortunately, this is a case where the messenger (Gore) kills the message...

een prettige dag
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 7:13 Comments || Top||

#9  Oh, as a addendum. Methane is 300 times as effective a greenhouse gas as CO2. Once you hit the 5C rise, we are done...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 7:17 Comments || Top||

#10  Trembling B4 G*d

It's logarithmic not linear. All insulating systems are.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 08/23/2011 7:25 Comments || Top||

#11  shhhhh... don't go confusing the troll with words like 'logarithmic' there BP. it's holy prophet, (or should we say profiteer) has spoken and the science is settled. we should all just bow down to our betters.

numbers and math is hard. just listen to the Goracle.
Posted by: abu do you love || 08/23/2011 7:51 Comments || Top||

#12  Ad-hominim attack # 2
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 7:53 Comments || Top||

#13  "It's logarithmic not linear. All insulating systems are."

You are right, Pebbles. My mistake.
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 7:54 Comments || Top||

#14  Ice core data do show that CO2 levels and average temp are related, however as the CO2 spike always follows the temp spike by about 500 years, it is evident that the causation is reverse of that claimed by the AGW zealots.
Posted by: abu do you love || 08/23/2011 7:56 Comments || Top||

#15  Typical Qbecer.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 7:56 Comments || Top||

#16  No "Happy Ending" for this fellow I'm afraid.
Posted by: Besoeker || 08/23/2011 8:34 Comments || Top||

#17  lulz..."my mistake" after arguing soooo convincingly
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 8:37 Comments || Top||

#18  90% of the species on the planet dying.

He may be right. Can't tell. So let's work on being in the other 10%, since global humanity WILL burn whatever can be burned (rain forests, peat bogs, coal, oil, gas) and no government can do more than slow it down a little.

The methane hydrate angle is interesting though - methane is a substantially more effective GHG than CO2, so maybe our best defense is to figure out how to extract and burn it before it melts and leaks out on its own...
Posted by: Glenmore || 08/23/2011 8:39 Comments || Top||

#19  a) we have an example in our own solar system...Venus, which has a runaway greenhouse effect

Not comparable. You do realize the Venusian atmosphere is nearly 100% CO2 as well as being 100 times denser than earth's? If all the near surface carbon (most of it trapped as carbonates - e.g. limestone) were magically converted to CO2, the atmospheric CO2 level would approach 8000 ppm or .8%.
Posted by: Eohippus Phater7165 || 08/23/2011 9:55 Comments || Top||

#20  Also take into the fact that throughout Earth's history, this is one of only two times that the atmosphere has been so carbon-poor. The other time was during snowball earth some 400 million years ago.

The rest of earth's history C02 has been far more plentiful in the atmosphere.
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 10:07 Comments || Top||

#21  b) Permian Mass Extinction (or 'The Great Dying') ~ 250 million years ago, which resulted in 90% of the species on the planet dying. Due to Siberia Traps basalt flood eruption, but principle is the same. Eruption caused large amounts of greenhouse gases (CO2, SO2, etc) to be emitted causing global warming, raising avg temp of planet by 5C.

Wrong. Temperature did rise, but it wasn't an increase in atmospheric CO2 levels that triggered the extinction. Prehistoric CO2 levels.
The Permian-Triassic epochs were at a CO2 minimum.
Posted by: Eohippus Phater7165 || 08/23/2011 10:32 Comments || Top||

#22 
Digging back into my memory of highschool, the pressure of any system is:

p=mt/v

(pressure, number molecules, temp, volume)

Of course the earth isn't a solid, the as the temp goes up, the water and atmosphere expand.

Since the gravitational forces loose their pull exponentially, the outer layers of atmosphere boil off easily taking heat with it.

Watching this debate, the pro greenhouse crowd is trying to make their case with scary movies and precious little hard science.

If they want to make their case, I'd like to see absorbtion rates of the various atmospheric gases by spectrum, then atmospheric compositions (estimates would be ok) from today going back for the last few thousand years.

No Science, no Dolla Dolla Bills.
Posted by: flash91 || 08/23/2011 10:33 Comments || Top||

#23  IS it just me, or are the Soros-Trolls out in greater force of late?
Posted by: Iblis || 08/23/2011 11:45 Comments || Top||

#24  Flash91, somebody just noticed that a lot more heat is lost to space from the upper atmosphere than was previously thought. They also seem to have noticed that, along with other gasses having a greater greenhouse effect than CO2 -- I haven't noticed AGW proponents talking about H2O, f'r instance, which, although having a small per molecule effect, makes up for it by being such a large percent of the total molecules -- there are a number of factors which thus far have not been accounted for in the "settled" calculations.

But I'll leave the discussion of those details to those who know more about them. I just wish to raise the point that weather, as opposed to climate, turns out to map to Chaos Theory, according to my brother the perfessor, who has done some consulting work with the National Weather Service.
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 12:23 Comments || Top||

#25  Almost all, 99.x%, of ocean methane hydrates are below the Thermocline.

Which means we would have to see dramatic warming over many centuries for the deep oceans to warm enough to cause their release.

Thus they can not be a cause of warming over the next century or so.
Posted by: phil_b || 08/23/2011 12:39 Comments || Top||

#26  I was referring to this,

Fudging GHG stats

For example emissions of HFC-23, with an atmospheric half life of approximately 270 years an extremely long-lived GHG Ā– and with a global warming potential 15,000 times greater than CO2 a particularly potent one. HFC-23 is produced as a by-product in the manufacture of chlorodifluoromethane (HCFC-22), which is used as a cooling and foaming agent and in Teflon production.
Posted by: phil_b || 08/23/2011 12:44 Comments || Top||

#27  TW, indeed H2O feedbacks dominate our climate over timescales of a few minutes to generally less than a day.

We have almost no useful measurements of these effects on a global scale.

For example, one of the two primary means of heat transport upwards on its way to space in the Earths climate is ocean evaporation resulting in rain.

Increasing rainfall would be strong evidence the climate is warming.

However, we have no idea whether rainfall is increasing or not.
Posted by: phil_b || 08/23/2011 13:14 Comments || Top||

#28  Thank you, phil_b. And I see that a new deep-ocean cold current has just been discovered flowing south from Iceland into the Atlantic, part of the ocean circulation which regulates climate, it seems. Something else to factor into the climate change calculations... Link
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 14:27 Comments || Top||

#29  Rates of radioactive decay were once thought to be constant. Very small variations on a 33-day cycle have been observed and have not been refuted. There is no accepted theory to explain this. The cooling of the earth from its ancient molten state has been greatly slowed by radioactive decay. [In 1862 the future Lord Kelvin calculated the earth's age as between 20 million and 400 million years based solely on thermodynamics, as radioactivity decay wasn't known then. Geologists didn't believe him.] If small variations irrefutably occur, why not larger and less frequent ones?
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 08/23/2011 14:56 Comments || Top||

#30  TW
IIUC super-convecting equatorial cells (thunderstorms) transport surface heat 60,000+ feet up. In other words, on the other side of all that evil CO2 in the troposphere.

And in other news, CERN is now doing good work investigating solar wind/GCR interactions with atmospheric ionization and cloud levels.

Whatever effect anthropogenic CO2 may or may not have in 200-300 years, it is NOT the cause of the warming that took place back in the 20th century
Posted by: My two cents || 08/23/2011 14:59 Comments || Top||

#31  So far ZERO evidence that anything puny humans do (starting today) will affect global temps on anything less than a 300 year time frame. Except maybe an all-out nuclear war.
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 08/23/2011 15:35 Comments || Top||

#32  AGW only happens in (some) computers.

The Earth's climate is too big to fit inside a computer.
Posted by: Free Radical || 08/23/2011 18:58 Comments || Top||

#33  My two cents, well explained, and good to know about CERN. :-). I sigh for the good old days when contrails were going to precipitate the next ice age. How times have changed.

All in all, a thoroughly satisfying thread, my dears. Dank je wel for the challenge, Trembling B4 G*d. One most sincerely hopes you, too, have learnt from this discussion.
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 21:43 Comments || Top||

#34  Ik heb. Dankzij

Though the jury is out about the link between contrails and global dimming :)...but that's another debate for another post..
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 21:52 Comments || Top||

#35  TW. The CERN CLOUD experiment is an expansion of prior test both at CERN and in a particle accelerator in Denmark. Henrik Svensmark has been doing yeomanlike work developing this theory with a coterie of astrophysicists, geologists and other scientific disciplines. I think he has hit the nail right on the head.

I just finished reading the book "The Chilling Stars" which outlines his theory and the historical evidence. I highly recommend it to anyone who seriously wants to find out the truth about climate change.

You can also view a 1 hour documentary on the subject here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANMTPF1blpQ
Posted by: DanNY || 08/23/2011 22:27 Comments || Top||

#36  I have never heard of the CERN Cloud, but I will take a look at this doc. Thanks.
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:32 Comments || Top||

#37  DanNY, thank you. I learn so much from these discussions, undertaken by such a wonderfu mix of serious amateurs and equally serious professionals. I'm going to look into the book for either Mr. Wife or trailing daughter #1 for Christmas.
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 23:58 Comments || Top||


Economy
Why Amazon Can't Make A Kindle In the USA
4 part series from Forbes on why we can't make basic computer parts in the US anymore and are in danger of losing the ability to do any sort of high tech anymore. Pretty scary actually. We have outsourced our entire future.
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  No problem. We'll just sell each other cell phone contracts & insurance.
Posted by: PBMcL || 08/23/2011 0:54 Comments || Top||

#2  Oh, and of course, sue the evil pharmaceutical companies. Today's miracle drug is tomorrow's litigation target.
Posted by: PBMcL || 08/23/2011 0:59 Comments || Top||

#3  Someday soon, someone who says "You want fries with that?" will be seen as a Captain of Industry...
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 1:40 Comments || Top||

#4  I figured we'd just take in each other's laundry. No problem.
Posted by: eLarson || 08/23/2011 7:13 Comments || Top||

#5  Let me guess "It's all Bammer's fault!!!"...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 7:19 Comments || Top||

#6  He's not helping.

He doesn't realize that when he advocates all those 'green' jobs, that all those jobs will be in .. China.

It's not like we can make the solar panels in the USA, given that we've allowed the critical technology to leave our country.

You want jobs? You have to invest for the long haul, and keep the country a place where business can invest for the long haul. Our B-schools turn out people who think quarter-to-quarter, and our government is filled with nitwits.

Welcome to the new world.
Posted by: Steve White || 08/23/2011 7:43 Comments || Top||

#7  You want jobs? You have to be willing to accept globalized pay rates. Labor isn't as fungible as oil, but it's getting closer all the time. The jobs will go to the lowest bidder. And China, like all the other tigers of the orient, is creating lots of engineers as well as line workers off the farm. It's not like American manufacturing has some kind of quality premium that will justify first world pay rates any m ore. Our kids do not know the hole they are digging with their addiction to iPods and Hannah Montana.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 7:54 Comments || Top||

#8  Yea, I can see all the IT firms living Israel for China, NS.
Posted by: g(r)omgoru || 08/23/2011 8:28 Comments || Top||

#9  350m Ameicans COULD buy have bought from other AMERICANS and survive quite well!

We were sold out by the globalists and their pals in millionaire D.C. many decades ago. The "Giant Sucking Sound" was a warning no one heeded. As a kid I remember watchig the old news reel "Industry on Parade." We were the greatest. I'm not certain if it can ever return.
Posted by: Besoeker || 08/23/2011 8:42 Comments || Top||

#10  I'm not certain if it can ever return.

Nothing but the elimination of the EPA and a world war are necessary.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 9:06 Comments || Top||

#11  ea, I can see all the IT firms living Israel for China, NS.

I can see them being undersold.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 08/23/2011 9:07 Comments || Top||

#12  Our B-schools turn out people who think quarter-to-quarter,...

Because the institutional investment entities demand it of the corporations they hold the paper on. Of course, we're the ones who elect the sockpuppets who bail out such institutions when their gambling fails.

350m Ameicans COULD buy have bought from other AMERICANS and survive quite well!

Maybe, but the cost per unit would have been threefold, fivefold or tenfold as expensive. Development and evolution of those items would have consequently been far slower. The real question in the analysis is whether the cost of carrying the unemployed is more expensive than the cost added to the items being manufactured in country.

Not to factor in binding countries like China into the economic system which adds new calculations to what they do and how they do it on the world stage. One of the nightmares that haunted decisions makers in the latter half of the 20th Century was 'what were you willing to do to avoid the conflagrations of the first half of the century'. Those things weren't cheap in resources or lives. History is still out on the call on that issue.
Posted by: Procopius2k || 08/23/2011 11:10 Comments || Top||

#13  China poor and under Communism was neutered. China with America's former industrial might and under Communism-lite dictatorship is extremely dangerous.
Posted by: Eohippus Phater7165 || 08/23/2011 11:23 Comments || Top||

#14  The stability of the area where a multi-million project will be set up must be taken into consideration, if anything because the insurance will take it into consideration.

Something I have heard about asia is, "Yeah, they are effn crooks, but the graft is up front and more or less set. Here (in the US) you go through your channels, begin a project, get hit by a graft desguised as an ngo, then continue, thne hit by another, then complete the project and get shut down."

Places such as Macao offer all the ammenities, access to cheap labor, materials, in a safe and secure environment; like a Cancun but for business. Its China, you know who you are dealing with. How do you compare that to a law which must be passed before anyone knows what is in it, when that law has massive implications upon businesses and how they must handle their employees. Ya got an unelected agency, the EPA, shifting about what is and is not a pollutant and the ability to levy fines at the whims of whoever is in charge.

Has this happened overnight? No. A vast majority of consumers do not have the extra cash to buy quality, rather have a bunch of junk which needs replacing than a few good items which last. Notably, the product needing replacing sells more as a rule. Is this Bammer's fault, not directly, but the last 2-3 years has been a real kick in the balls for those companies who want to see Made in the USA, almost as if their loyalty to stay it out is being taken advantage of. Oh, except for Big Auto and Big Bank, who got to cheat.
Posted by: swksvolFF || 08/23/2011 11:36 Comments || Top||

#15  except for Big Auto..

Actually, Big Union. It goes back to that corruption bit you point out as part of the process rather than just up front as elsewhere.
Posted by: Procopius2k || 08/23/2011 12:28 Comments || Top||

#16  Let me guess "It's all Bammer's fault!!!"...

I'm so sick of hearing them parrot this nonsense. Stick around, troll, and you'll see all kinds of criticism of Republicans too. Read the articles and some of the more articulate posts. You might learn a thing or two.
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305 || 08/23/2011 12:29 Comments || Top||

#17  Globalized labor markets are toothpaste out of the tube. No putting it back in. Wishing for that to happen is like wishing that the tooth fairy is real.

Tariffs will only work short term and by delaying the inevitable will cause the final crash to be that much worse. Nimble Spemble and P2K and swksvolFF have the truth of it. We've allowed our material expectations for the worth a given unit of work to exceed the actual value of that work. Not in every case, or every job, or every industry, but in many, many of them. And the hyperregulatory environment (which is just another wealth redistribution scheme, at its base) the government at all levels has created makes things even worse.

Instead of wailing and gnashing of teeth, or cynical and lazy solutions by politicians like tariffs or allowing illegal immigration, we need to retool the material expectations of Americans back to a realistic level and eliminate the rent-seekers who have created this draconian regulatory environment. Only then can we get jobs back and keep them here.

Sadly, no politician has the cojones to tell that truth to the American public.
Posted by: no mo uro || 08/23/2011 14:51 Comments || Top||

#18  Our labor costs are higher than in China, no question about it. But there are a whole raft of other costs that dwarf what you encounter in Asia. Workman's comp, all kinds of insurance, Obamacare, EPA, etc., etc. Heck, you can see the variation on a state by state basis. So faced with all of this, of course the manufacturing is done overseas. If we could reign in the lawyers and the EPA (at least to the degree where the environment is protected, but not to the degree where I should be able to drink the water from the assembly line)we could go a long way to rebuilding our manufacturing base.
Posted by: remoteman || 08/23/2011 14:54 Comments || Top||

#19  The US has even outsourced the production of its monuments - the new MLKJr. statue was made in China!
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 08/23/2011 15:02 Comments || Top||

#20  Hey, it's Mao Luther King. And yes, it does look vaguely Maoish.
Posted by: Eohippus Phater7165 || 08/23/2011 15:49 Comments || Top||

#21  and the King family charged $800,000 to use his image/words. Nice. I'd a told them it's free or they can stick it where the sun don't shine
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 16:29 Comments || Top||

#22  Jesse's will one hand out. Palm up.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 17:03 Comments || Top||

#23  I'm with remoteman. It ain't wages that's the problem, it's the taxes and regulations, and not even being able to run your own company as long as your operations are located _here_ in the US.

See the other link up today about the rigs leaving the Gulf. Or the refinery and power plant shutdowns in Texas.

None of those are from the worker's end-wages.
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain || 08/23/2011 17:10 Comments || Top||

#24  Heck, to give yet another example of bureaucracy run amok:

Look at where the World Trade Center used to be. It still hasn't been built yet. That's not because of wages. That's because "being in charge" means being able to stop something much more than being able to get something going.

The only way wages work into this is it's expensive to be paying all the people who are working the project and doing nothing.
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain || 08/23/2011 17:41 Comments || Top||

#25  We have a professional administrator/regulator/bureacrat class in our society today. They are not interested in getting things done or built. Instead, their jobs are totally dependent on things not getting done (or only having a little bit get done so people still try). Whether it is the small town building department or the state or federal EPA, it is all the same schtick...we are here to protect you, we are here to maintain order. Horsepuckey! You are here to perpetuate your fiefdom. Now get out of the way!!!
Posted by: remoteman || 08/23/2011 17:42 Comments || Top||

#26  P2K, yes, corrected. Big Labor Unions, voting blocs, not those po-dunk local machinists who make corporate jets.
Posted by: swksvolFF || 08/23/2011 18:39 Comments || Top||

#27  I'm with remoteman. It ain't wages that's the problem, it's the taxes and regulations, and not even being able to run your own company as long as your operations are located _here_ in the US.

This is a good chunk of it, the regulations are killer, I remember having a similar conversation with coworkers about 4-5 years ago when discussing semiconductor fabs. Basically just the construction and equipment costs alone put an investment group well into the billion plus territory, toss in regulations, wage laws, siting regs, etc. and you're well into doubling your initial build costs. So of course these investment groups are going to build overseas where there's fewer regulations, lower costs of wages overall, and when you have to "bribe" a person they tend to stay relatively bought.

This has had a similar trickle down effect in the sense that it applies to ANY manufacturing process that is 1) Capital intensive 2) needs new infrastructure to be competitive 3)is dependent on no or little potential disruptions due to labor.

That being said I don't know that there's any "good" solution to the problem. What we are seeing overseas is in essence vertical integration of products in some sense (e.g using the Dell example, everything gets outsourced to a company(s) until it is completely produced in their chain). I suppose slashing apart the regs helps along with tax reductions, and probably with accompanying import tariffs of 100% or greater (I would never have said anything good about tariffs until this economy hit), but I doubt even that will see us have a rebuilding of critical manufacturing and technology in the US
Posted by: Valentine || 08/23/2011 19:14 Comments || Top||

#28  "I'm so sick of hearing them parrot this nonsense. Stick around, troll, and you'll see all kinds of criticism of Republicans too. Read the articles and some of the more articulate posts. You might learn a thing or two."

I'm shaking in anticipation for those articulate posts...and where, oh where, are those posts where you criticise Republicans...must be written in a yellowy, tiny font...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 19:19 Comments || Top||

#29  Trembling B4 G*d - lean in close so you can hear me whisper this in your ear. It's a message from a Mod. You wrote: must be written in a yellowy, tiny font...

There is only one person here that uses that yellowy, tiny font. His name is Fred. I do hope you weren't referring to his comments. His font is yellowy, as most comments are, but his is smaller.

At great expense to him, he is giving you this "corner on the square" to rant all you want as long as it fits in the description of his site: Civil, well reasoned discourse. (That's at the top of the page in case you haven't see that. Just trying to help a newbie.)

You're discourse, with those words, just about stepped out of the boundary lines.

He controls the "kill switch," as do several Mods here.....

Keep it civil, keep it well reasoned (which you haven't done so far) and well, welcome to Rantburg. Let's see if you can measure up to being a part of all discourse that happens here.

Lots to be learned --- we call it Rantburg U. Good luck.... I hope you have civil, well reasoned discourse to offer us.
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 19:44 Comments || Top||

#30  "Trembling B4 G*d - lean in close so you can hear me whisper this in your ear. It's a message from a Mod. You wrote: must be written in a yellowy, tiny font..."

First off, this had nothing to do with Fred or his posting fonts, as he doesn't post in a yellowy font. It has to do with posting a yellow font against a yellow background, as in a normal post by hitting the normal 'comment' button by a normal visitor of this site. As in 'invisible'. How you can possibly construe that as a slight against the owner of this site is beyond the bounds of believability...

But as we say in Dutch "We moeten accepteren De kaarten geregeld voor ons, niet uit hoe oneerlijk zij kunnen worden"
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 20:14 Comments || Top||

#31  As we say in English, "If you don't like it here, get fuckin lost".
And I'm a moderator too.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 20:21 Comments || Top||

#32  Oh hell, I'll join in. I'm another of the moderators here. And you are being a pain in the ass Tremblin, without adding commensurate value to either amuse or advance discussion.

Dutch is not one of my languages, but another of our mods might chime in with colloquialisms in your native tongue.
Posted by: lotp || 08/23/2011 20:27 Comments || Top||

#33  "As we say in English, "If you don't like it here, get fuckin lost".
And I'm a moderator too"

I love it here, so I will stay. But thanks for asking...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 20:40 Comments || Top||

#34  Fine with me.
Be prepared...
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 20:42 Comments || Top||

#35  I was going to join in, too, but...

Oh wait...
Posted by: badanov || 08/23/2011 20:47 Comments || Top||

#36  heh...chew toy #3,289
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 20:54 Comments || Top||

#37  take 'em bad
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 21:24 Comments || Top||

#38  You wonder why we go to the trouble of liberating these people.
Posted by: Matt || 08/23/2011 21:32 Comments || Top||

#39  Trembling -- First off, this had nothing to do with Fred or his posting fonts, as he doesn't post in a yellowy font.

Oh yea he does..... Meet your host. Know how to use Search?
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 21:35 Comments || Top||

#40  "You wonder why we go to the trouble of liberating these people"

I could be wrong, and I will apologise in advance if I am, but if you are talking about liberating the Nederlands in WWII, it was the Canadians that did that. And us Dutch will always share that strong bound of respect and gratitude with them. They will always be welcome in my home anytime...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 21:40 Comments || Top||

#41  Someone forget the sacrifices of the 82nd and 101st Airborne in Operation Market Garden in Holland.
Posted by: Procopius2k || 08/23/2011 21:44 Comments || Top||

#42  Although the drive toward Arnhem was halted, the two American Airborne divisions remained in place to tie down the Germans opposing them. The US 82d Airborne lost 1,432 killed and missing during Operation Market-Garden, and the US 101st Airborne sustained 2,110 casualties.

Once again, Trembly, you are proving yourself to be a fuckin idiot. Read a book or something before you shoot your mouth off.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 21:55 Comments || Top||

#43  "Someone forget the sacrifices of the 82nd and 101st Airborne in Operation Market Garden in Holland."

If I have forgotten, excuse me for my ignorance, but I am sure other Dutch people have not forgotten. But we are all taught about the 1st Canadian Army liberating us from the Nazis and we will never forget that...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:04 Comments || Top||

#44  "Once again, Trembly, you are proving yourself to be a fuckin idiot. Read a book or something before you shoot your mouth off. "

This is why we have that bound of gratitude and respect with Canadians...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:06 Comments || Top||

#45  tu's not Canadian, idiot. Run your mouth some more. I fare ya
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 22:09 Comments || Top||

#46  or dare even :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 08/23/2011 22:10 Comments || Top||

#47  ...or the thousands of tons of food airdropped in April and May 1945 to those Netherlanders starving in still occupied Holland in Operation Chowhound. Need to read up more.
Posted by: Procopius2k || 08/23/2011 22:12 Comments || Top||

#48  Yes, I know.
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:12 Comments || Top||

#49  As that romantic line from "Casablanca said, "well always have Paris Srebrenica
Posted by: badanov || 08/23/2011 22:17 Comments || Top||

#50  Yeah, well I get a little angry when the sacrifice of 3500 dead Americans is pissed on by the ignorant offspring of people they died to liberate.

Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 22:18 Comments || Top||

#51  ...and when a say 'gratitude and respect' with Canadians, I can add the word 'mutual' in front of that, something that I can't say for Americans...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:19 Comments || Top||

#52  I have nothing but love and thankfulness for all who died defending and liberating Nederlands, whether they be Canadian, American, British, French. But there is something that someone once told me about the difference between Canadians and Americans. Canadians have to be prodded to acknowledge the contributions they made for our liberation, while Americans never let you forget theirs.

Good evening (that would be early morning here)...
Posted by: Trembling B4 G*d || 08/23/2011 22:26 Comments || Top||

#53  You have a great love of Canadians, Trembly. Why, it's almost like you are one...
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 22:32 Comments || Top||

#54  Trembling B4 G*d is gone for now.
Posted by: badanov || 08/23/2011 22:34 Comments || Top||

#55  Trembling -- you have yet to add any new info to our vast knowledge that is Rantburg U.

Just another cliquester that joins the "not a conformer clique" that becomes, from joining the "not a conformer," becomes a conformers.

But hey -- it's a new generation, and maybe the "hot" women tally the number of "rote talking points," and equate that with the "sexy" man. Not going back to score your words, but heavy on the "talking points"....

Just hope, tonight, she is as good as you want.
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 22:37 Comments || Top||

#56  opss -- thanks bad --- I was little late on the last response.

Glad he's gone....
Posted by: Sherry || 08/23/2011 22:39 Comments || Top||

#57  I could be wrong, and I will apologise in advance if I am, but if you are talking about liberating the Nederlands in WWII, it was the Canadians that did that. And us Dutch will always share that strong bound of respect and gratitude with them. They will always be welcome in my home anytime...

You are wrong. Very, very wrong. It was a truckful of American troops who brought my mother from Amersfoort, where she was hidden during the war by the Verheij family to Amsterdam where her parents had been hidden. It was the chocolate given to my mother by the American soldiers which revealed the allergy she had developed during the deprivations of the Hunger Winter of 1944-'45 when the Germans took everything movable back to their homeland,, leaving the Dutch to eat their tulip bulbs. If your teachers neglected to mention that, they are either incompetent or vicious, quite unlike the ones who allowed my mother to complete three years of high school work in three months at the lovely school-in-a-castle associated with Oxford University, giving her a diploma just in time to emigrate to America on her parents' visa before her twenty-first birthday. It,s all in my grandmother,s memoir, on file at Yad Vashem and the U.N.I.C.A. fraternity house in Amsterdam, which is still proud of their historic actions. They still live like pigs though -- my grandmother,s housekeeping has totally vanished over the years as we saw when we visited last year.
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 23:16 Comments || Top||

#58  Too bad, Shakey. Try again tomorrow.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/23/2011 23:53 Comments || Top||


Jobless total exceeds population of Greece
America's jobless crisis has been going on so long that the raw numbers have lost much of their power to convey the severity of the problem. The Wall Street Journal's David Wessel has found a clever new way to get at the issue.

Wessel notes that there are more officially unemployed people in the United States (13.9 million, though if you count those who have given up looking it's nearly twice that) than the total individual populations of 46 out of 50 U.S. states.

Or, if you prefer: There are more offically unemployed Americans than the combined population of Wyoming, Vermont, North Dakota, Alaska, South Dakota, Delaware, Montana, Rhode Island, Hawaii, Maine, New Hampshire, Idaho and the District of Columbia.

Or finally: There are more unemployed Americans than the total population of Greece or Portugal, both of which have 10.8 million people. And more than twice as many as the total population of Norway, which has 4.7 million people.
Hope and change, baby.
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  ION RENSE > [Telegraph.UK] QADDAFI'S DEFEAT WILL NOT SAVE OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY.

* CNN NEWS AM > "AMERICAN MORNING" Show = US, WORLD ECONOMY IS STALLING.

* STARS-N-STRIPES > "BLUE DOG" DEMOCRATS DECLINE IN NUMBER, INFLUENCE WANES.

Lines in the sand???

* PEOPLE'S DAILY FORUM > GLOBAL RECOVERY REQUIRES POLITICAL COURAGE, + Pol Leadership, NOT MORE PCORRECT-DENIABLE, DUBIOUS CUT-N-FIT ECON METHODS + SHORT-TERM FIXES that fail to resolve anything except the size of Govt. + Govt spending.

* SAME > THE GREAT FAILURE OF GLOBALIZATION. The US + Europe are unable to identify core problems.

ARTIC = ...
> No Econ or Growth Strategy.
> Failure of Political Leaders to realize that GOOD FISCAL POLICY DOE N-O-T MEAN RUNNING UP HIGH OR MASSIVE, PERENNIAL DEFICITS.
> US INCREASINGLY DEVOL INTO A MELANGE OF DIFFERENTIATED, COMPETING SECTORS, CLASS, + REGIONAL INTERESTS. Ideo???
> TOP POITICIANS REFUSE TO DELINK PERSONAL, NON-STOP = PERPETUAL,PDENIABLE, ELECTIONEERING OR CAMPAIGNING VEE VITAL NATIONAL INTERESTS.

IIUC, IOW, the "GOOD OF THE NATION/PEOPLE" is seemingly always SECOND-FIDDLE TO PERSONAL, FOR-PROFIT/BENEFIT, I-GOT-MINE-N-THATS-ALL-THAT-MATTERS MOTIVES.

* TOPIX > NO LEADERSHIP OR GRAND STRATEGY IN WASHINGTON TO FIX NATION'S WOES.

* SAME > HAYEK IS WRONG, + SO IS BERNANKE, THE COMING [US, Global?] RECESSION WILL BE DEFLATIONARY.

* SAME > ANALYSTS: HIGH RISK OF [US-Global]ECONOMIC DEPRESSION DUE TO FAILURE OF DEBT DEAL TO MEET TARGETS.

* SAME > RISE IN US JOBLESS CLAIMS HERALDS/SIGNALS POOR RECOVERY.

* DEFENCE.PK/FORUMS > POLLS: MOST AMERICANS FAVOR AFGHAN PULLOUT.

Majority of Amers believe ...
> US has NO CLEARLY DEFINED MISSION, ROLE, OR STRATEGY IN AFGHANISTAN = AFPAK.
> The Fed in Washington should NOT BE SPENDING SCARCE TAXPAYER $$$ IN A TIME OF NATIONAL ECON TROUBLES UNTIL IT DOES THE ABOVE.
> US Troops in Afghanistan = AFPAK should be brought home ASAP, IN NMT ONE YEAR OR LESS.

* BHARAT RAKSHAK > LIFE AFTER DEBT: IN THIS MONTH'S MARKET UPHEAVALS, WE ARE WITNESSING THE END OF A SEVEN-DECADE [70 Years] LONG ECONOMIC EXPERIMENT, BUT DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT COMES NEXT?

* DEFENCE.PK/FORUMS > TEXAS A & M PREDICTS FLOOD/WAVES OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS INTO US FROM CHINA.

D *** NG IT, FERGIT THE CARTEL WARS, OPEN BORDERS, + ILLEGAL HISPANICS - ITS THE CHINESE THAT ARE COMING, THE CHINESE ARE COMING!

PRAVDA = CHINESE MEN HAVE ALREADY STARTED TO CONQUER RUSSIA'S FEMALE POPULATION.
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 08/23/2011 0:56 Comments || Top||

#2  We could adopt the Afghan model and begin growing Marijuana and Poppies as a cash crops.
Posted by: Besoeker || 08/23/2011 9:13 Comments || Top||

#3  Better living through chemistry. Home meth labs.
Posted by: Eohippus Phater7165 || 08/23/2011 9:30 Comments || Top||

#4  >We could adopt the Afghan model and begin growing Marijuana and Poppies as a cash crops.

Be better than the Nu-Prohibition choices.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 08/23/2011 11:57 Comments || Top||

#5  How apt, comparing the unemployed population to that of Greece.
Posted by: no mo uro || 08/23/2011 14:53 Comments || Top||


Europe
Expelled Wikileaks Spokesman Destroyed Unpublished Files
Former WikiLeaks spokesman Daniel Domscheit-Berg claims to have destroyed more than 3,500 unpublished files obtained from unknown informants. The information they contained is now apparently lost, irrevocably. The documents in question were stored on the WikiLeaks server until late summer 2010, when Domscheit-Berg left the organization, taking the files with him upon his departure. Documents from the database included the United States government's so-called No-Fly list.
Hard to believe Wikileaks would maintain only a single copy of anything.
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 08/23/2011 02:18 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I believe it used to be called.... "Unauthorized destruction of classified documents and US Gov't property."
Posted by: Besoeker || 08/23/2011 8:24 Comments || Top||

#2  Well, unauthorized acquisition was there first. I think that the destruction was not something Uncle Sam was unhappy about.
Posted by: twobyfour || 08/23/2011 9:20 Comments || Top||

#3 

Hard to believe Wikileaks would maintain only a single copy of anything.


Hard to maintain control over things if there are multiple copies, and Assmange has shown he's a MASSIVE control freak.
Posted by: Rob Crawford || 08/23/2011 16:44 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Politix
Dupe entry: Citizen Group Tasked With Redistricting Dramatically Changes California Map
California voters are in for quite a surprise when they head to the polls in 2012: competitive congressional elections and possibly unfamiliar names on the ballot.

A new electoral map drawn up by a panel of ordinary citizens and criticized as creating too many districts for minority representation has dramatically changed California's political landscape. Members of Congress who've held their seats for years are now scrambling to figure out their political futures.

"We're going to have more competitive elections in November than this state has seen, probably in two decades," political expert Allen Hoffenblum told Fox News.

Hoffenblum says if the result of previous redistricting was that it protected incumbents, the error with the citizens' map is that it is heavily skewed to racial demographics.

"We went from a political gerrymand to a racial gerrymand. That the commission became overly conscious of drawing seats on race. The Latino seats, the black seats, the Asian seats. And in the process of creating these districts based on race they divided counties, they divided cities and split cities."

Republican Rep. David Dreier has held his southern California seat for more than 30 years. It now skews heavily toward the area's Latino population that's not part of his natural political base.

The most competitive races figure to be ones in which multiple incumbents will face off against each other. Depending on how the races develop that scenario could play out in half-a-dozen districts across the Golden State. Longtime incumbent Democratic Reps. Brad Sherman and Howard Berman are now in the same district north of Los Angeles. Republican Reps. Ed Royce and Gary Miller could also face off in the new 39th District.

Since there is no residency requirement beyond living in the state, lawmakers have some flexibility when it comes to where they live and what districts they try to represent. Some lawmakers have already declared their 2012 intentions. Many others have not.

"The process was open and transparent. And it yielded maps that didn't care about incumbents and didn't care about where people sat in the past," California political analyst Matt Klink said. "They're new lines. New districts. It's going to create a lot chaos at the state level and the federal level for the California representatives."

The shake-up started as a reaction to the redistricting of seats following the 2000 Census. Critics said the politicians who led that effort drew districts that protected their jobs.

The numbers suggest that's exactly what happened.

In the last five election cycles with 265 congressional races, only one California incumbent representative --Republican Richard Pombo in 2006 -- lost a race for reelection.

Could be good. Lord knows California could do with a huge political mix up. This might be the thing which breaks the current political stranglehold on the state. Also I may get a Unicorn that poops diamonds and farts rainbows for my birthday. (That wasn't a cynical statement, was it?)
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 11:38 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


CA drops political gerrymanding in favor of racial gerrymanding - Higher Taxes at Eleven
Posted by: GolfBravoUSMC || 08/23/2011 10:57 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Heh....

Could be good. Lord knows that California could use a good political dust up to break the current stranglehold it has on the state.

I also might get a unicorn for my birthday that poops diamonds and farts rainbows.
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 11:42 Comments || Top||

#2  Racial ghettoization can have some very interesting effects, if it results in congressional representation. This is because different groups put different demands on their congressmen.

It will be interesting to see what will happen, the differences between white, black, Chinese, Korean, Mexican illegal, Mexican legal, Indian, and other groups large enough to get their own congressman.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 08/23/2011 12:14 Comments || Top||

#3  Illinois has long had racial gerrymandering. The 4th district is supposed to be the most gerrymandered in the nation. It "unites" various hispanic neighborhoods.
Posted by: Spot || 08/23/2011 14:12 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Culture Wars
Park district brings back pesticides after turf deteriorates
Four years ago, the Park District of Highland Park banned the use of chemical pesticides and herbicides on its playing fields. It's "integrated pest management program" was praised as a model among parks organizations leading a natural lawn-care movement.

But after shifting from pesticides to organic, health-conscience techniques, including intensified irrigation, aeration, mowing, over-seeding and other cultural practices, the district is going to let its grounds keepers again deploy pesticides and herbicides.

The commissioners OKd the change last week after park officials said the organic program had likely contributed to the worst field conditions the district has seen in more than a decade.

Corn gluten meal, which is billed as a natural substitute for synthetic herbicides, was tested in Highland Park, but district officials reported odor problems and limited success.

Restaurant-grade vinegar also has been sprayed and determined to be a better alternative to pesticides in some cases.

Ted Baker, the district's director of park operations, said dandelions, clover and other invasive weeds have overrun several district parks. Weeds are said to cover more than 60 percent of the ground at Fink, West Ridge and Danny Cunniff parks.

Four years ago, the district won awards for its turf health and playability. Now park users and athletic program leaders have been complaining.

"The fields are getting worse every year," Park District Commissioner Cal Bernstein said. "I think something needs to be done to reverse the trend."

The district will continue to use aspects of the organic program, but the district will apply one round of the previously banned pesticides or herbicides at the three most problematic parks.
Still clinging bitterly to your green religion and organics, huh?
Posted by: DarthVader || 08/23/2011 13:40 || Comments || Link || [5 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Darth, this is a park we're talking about. Kids running barefoot, kids kicking up dust while playing soccer and tee-ball, babies crawling around in the grass and putting stuff in their mouths, your old hound dog sniffing absolutely everything, Ultimate Frisbee players crashing and face-planting in the grass. You have to at least try something non-toxic.

Personally, I'd replant the whole field in a short species of clover; or maybe I'd ask the rec dept to find somebody to teach a course in brewing dandelion wine.



Posted by: mom || 08/23/2011 17:07 Comments || Top||

#2  Just pave the sucker over and be done with it.
Posted by: Steve White || 08/23/2011 18:10 Comments || Top||

#3  Recycled tires, Dye them green if you want.
Posted by: Pappy || 08/23/2011 21:18 Comments || Top||

#4  Weeds are dreadful to play soccer on. It,s like running on bare ground, not to mention the mud and dust that form because their roots don,t hold the soil in the same way as a healthy turf. It does help to use a grass mixture suited to the soil and climate of the region rather than Kentucky Bluegrass (except in Kentucky, of course). But they ran the experiment and accepted the results, so we should be proud of them -- it,s more than some so-called professional scientists are capable of.
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/23/2011 23:39 Comments || Top||



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Tue 2011-08-23
  Rebels Capture Gadhafi's Bab al-Aziziya Compound, House
Mon 2011-08-22
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Sun 2011-08-21
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