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2007-07-31 China-Japan-Koreas

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Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-31 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11130 views ] Top

#1 Lest we fergit, KANWA > China seking Russ assistance to build 1-2 aircraft carriers before Year 2015.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-07-31 00:41|| 2007-07-31 00:41|| Front Page Top

#2 It says a lot in how none of the advanced features, like electro-optics, lasers, thermal imaging and photomultipliers are Chinese inventions.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-31 01:00|| 2007-07-31 01:00|| Front Page Top

#3 No worry, Zenmeister, they're experts at copying and rip-offs. They'll soon have it down. They're moving ahead fast. Just like they've taken over entire US industrial production, they'll soon master not only the most advanced weapons, but inside ten years have their own 787 copy. Mebbe call it the 878 and sell it for half the price.

Posted by Woozle Elmeter2970 2007-07-31 01:36|| 2007-07-31 01:36|| Front Page Top

#4 That laser device on the tank would also be against the Geneva Conventions but as we all know the Chinese don't exactly follow silly little things like rules.

Posted by Valentine 2007-07-31 01:39|| 2007-07-31 01:39|| Front Page Top

#5 Also, the most advanced tank that the ChiComs produced for many years was a T-62 knockoff with a 105mm main gun and Israeli electronics. The first few hundred 105mm guns were also supplied by the Israelis. It has not been that long since those knockoffs were the high-tech sword of the PLA, and I am supposed to believe that the ChiComs now have a Leopard II/Merkava 4/Challenger/M1A1 Abrams clone?
And what is with the 90% first hit probability? Western 3rd gen tanks have a 95-98% fhp while moving at speed, and in combat conditions. Plus, those tanks have actually been in COMBAT - not just PLA set-piece battles. This is typical Communist propaganda about their weapon superiority, the same kind of crap that used to flow out of the Soviet Union when it was still around.
Anyone remember the kill ratio between T-72s and M1A1s during Desert Storm? It was like 500-0, with NO confirmed M1A1 kills from T-72s. And this was against an army that had actually fought tank battles in the past 20 years. And remember, Saddam had bought all the upgrade kits he could for the T-72s so they were the newest versions of that tank; the T-90 is simply a T-72 with the latest armor, gun, sights, and fire suppression system. I have a very hard time believing that the ChiComs have made a Great Leap Forward past the T-72/T-90 series, and onto a true 3rd gen tank.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2007-07-31 04:33|| 2007-07-31 04:33|| Front Page Top

#6 This is typical Communist propaganda about their weapon superiority, the same kind of crap that used to flow out of the Soviet Union when it was still around.

I wish like hell we had some retired tankers who would like nothing more than to face down one of these Chinese POSs in a direct one-on-one duel, with lives on the line. Challenge the Chinese to put up or shut up on international television and broadcast the match live so the world could see American hardware shred this glorified bulldozer with a popgun on it.

Shieldwolf, you seem knowledgable about the T series Soviet tanks. Didn't their gun barrels require replacement after less than 100 rounds being fired. I recall the number being much lower. What are the odds that China has advanced both high strength metallurgy and machining of large piece artillery gun components? I wouldn't bet a plug nickel on it.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-31 04:52|| 2007-07-31 04:52|| Front Page Top

#7 The key question is, have they copied the Sgt's, Lt's and Cpt's required to make your tanks anything other than very expensive hard targets?

Have they copies of an air force capable of keeping our airforce and navy off their backs?

It's all big talk from a military whose last sucessful engagement was tienamen (sp?) square against their own civilians.

IIRC, the common joke is that we could trade equeiptment with any prospective opponet, and still win.

Posted by N Guard 2007-07-31 06:20|| 2007-07-31 06:20|| Front Page Top

#8 IIRC, the common joke is that we could trade equeiptment with any prospective opponet, and still win.

Quite reminiscent of Bum Phillips' immortal quote about football coach Don Schula:

"He can beat your'n with his'n and he can beat his'n with your'n."

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-31 06:44|| 2007-07-31 06:44|| Front Page Top

#9 Zen,

The earlier T-72's had a barrel life of 200 EFCs. (This is from memory, reaching back to the days when I worried about things like that, but barrel life values of 200 to 300 are typical for 105mm and 125mm rifled barrels).

An EFC (Equivalent Full Charge) of 200 means you can fire 200 rounds that have an EFC of 1. A SABOT or APFSDS round typically had an EFC value of 1. From memory, HEAT rounds were about 1.7, HESH and splintex were about 0.6)

Training rounds typically have a low EFC (0.1 or 0.2) so you can fire a thousand or more before the barrel needs to be replaced.

I have no idea what the life of a smooth bore tank gun might be.

Posted by Bunyip 2007-07-31 07:47|| 2007-07-31 07:47|| Front Page Top

#10 I would still bet money on the M1A2/Challenger/Leopard II taking out the Chitcom's new tank.

And what N Guard said too. Those tanks sure are pretty targets for our airplanes and cruise missiles.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-07-31 09:58|| 2007-07-31 09:58|| Front Page Top

#11 When will these be available at my nearest Dollar Store?

Posted by borgboy2001 2007-07-31 20:00|| 2007-07-31 20:00|| Front Page Top

#12 I note that lasers are line-of-sight, while projectiles are ballistic, no blinding the enemy gunners here, just stand off a bit and vaporize them.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-07-31 21:12|| 2007-07-31 21:12|| Front Page Top

#13 Yes, the Soviet/ChiCom tank series have never been noted for long lived barrels; the Communists were more interested in pumping a lot of the tanks out, rather than have said tanks last very long. The old Communist swarm attack style dictated that approach - Stalin's famous "Quantity is a quality all of its own".

Also, it would be interesting to see just how effective one of the new Chinese "super tanks" armor is against the standard US depleted uranium sabot shot. All the Soviet/Russian tanks hit with those rounds tend to be catastrophic kills - total fuel and ammo cook-offs, with 15 ton turrets blown straight up and off of the impacted tanks and total loss of crew besides. And Bradleys were killing T-72/T-90 using their 25mm chainguns with DU rounds during Iraqi Freedom. Communist armor has never recovered its high water mark of the T-34 during WWII : that model of tank was the best WWII that there was.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2007-07-31 22:27|| 2007-07-31 22:27|| Front Page Top

#14 Umm... Shieldwolf, how many Soviet/Russian tanks have ours fought? Was there a war that I missed?

Posted by trailing wife 2007-07-31 23:43|| 2007-07-31 23:43|| Front Page Top

23:58 OldSpook
23:57 Zenster
23:48 Xenophon
23:47 Zenster
23:43 trailing wife
23:33 Anonymoose
23:22 JosephMendiola
23:17 JosephMendiola
23:07 Pappy
22:48 Zenster
22:48 Broadhead6
22:45 Pappy
22:43 JosephMendiola
22:40 Zenster
22:39 Broadhead6
22:35 Shieldwolf
22:29 Pappy
22:28 Sigmund Freud
22:27 Shieldwolf
22:24 Sigmund Freud
22:23 Pappy
22:11 Zhang Fei
22:07 Old Patriot
21:49 Mike