The police are considering a proposal to let selected British Muslims examine the intelligence used to mount anti-terrorism raids before they take place, the Guardian has learned.
The proposal will be considered as part of a review of the raid in Forest Gate, east London, a fortnight ago when 250 officers stormed a family house searching for a chemical weapon which was not found. One man was shot and police have apologised for the "hurt" caused by the raid which has further damaged strained relations with the local community. The review began this week and is expected to be completed before the end of the month.
While such a review after a controversial incident is standard, this one is unique because British Muslims are involved from the start. A senior police source with knowledge of the issues involved said: "We are working on sharing more information with the community before, during and after events so they understand as much of the context as we can provide."
So that the 'community' may be forewarned.
Other sources said the review would look at the gathering and assessment of intelligence, which is sparser than in other serious crime. The review will also look at what action police then take, and whether hundreds of police need to storm a private family house. Also on the table is more rapid compensation, whether police can do more to stop or counteract leaks "smearing" suspects.
How about leaks wrecking operations?
Andy Hayman, the Met's assistant commissioner in charge of anti-terrorism, has already said lessons would be learned after the raid, which saw two brothers held for eight days and questioned, before being released without charge. The two young Muslims faced a welter of allegations in the media, which their supporters accused counter-terrorism officials of leaking and which are denied.
Any British Muslims shown intelligence would be security vetted but would not have a veto on the raid.
But they would have a cell phone ...
The review includes members of the Muslim Safety Forum, which aims to improve relations between police and British Muslim communities. Azad Ali, its chairman, said fresh measures, such as British Muslims being able to advise the police on their intelligence and how to act on it before any raid, must be found. "Greater cooperation with the police is possible, but it needs the police to take creative steps to build trust," he said. "There are people keen to help the police, but episodes like Forest Gate and the way it was mishandled stoke up the mistrust."
Privately senior officers have said more raids will occur because of the threat of terrorism. But they face several dilemmas. Intelligence they have is sketchy and cannot be hardened up in the way it can in other serious crime. But every episode in which errors appear to be made, cost the police in lost confidence. Senior officers say they need the trust of British Muslims to gain an increased flow of information.
In another sign of the impact of the Forest Gate raid, the head of Labour's ethnic minority taskforce will today warn that the anti-terrorism battle will not work while Muslims feel picked on. Keith Vaz MP will tell a Labour meeting on diversity: "[Defeating terrorism] ... will not be achieved while anyone perceives they remain suspects simply because of their colour or creed."
Yesterday police received another reminder about how long the damage from a botched anti-terrorist operation can last. The family of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian man shot dead last July after being mistaken for a terrorist, condemned delays which could see a report on the death not appearing until the autumn.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/17/2006 12:56 ||
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#1
While the Brit bureaucrats dwell in mega-minutae, the Muzzies steadily break down the government so it will be totally impotent. Unless something happens soon and the Brit govt grows a pair, Britain is lost. Winston Churchill must be up to 1000 rpm in his grave. What is happening to a once great nation is tragic.
Posted by: Alaska Paul at Bethel, AK ||
06/17/2006 16:24 Comments ||
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#2
they should be treated like any other "Brit" even if they don't consider themselves British.
Plus the voting population of the uk is moving to the right, the next general election will see gains by the far right parties such as the BNP and therefor mainstream parties will be more intollerant of muslims sensibilities.
Second "warning" this week. I hope those recon flights are escorted just in case.
Pyongyang, June 16 (KCNA) -- The Air Force Command of the Korean People's Army released today the following report on the ceaseless military provocation perpetrated by the U.S. imperialist warmongers: The U.S. imperialist warmongers committed one more military provocation by infiltrating a strategic reconnaissance plane into the sky above the DPRK's economic waters on June 16.
At around 8:00 Friday an "RC-135" of the U.S. imperialist aggression forces illegally intruded into the sky above the waters of the DPRK east of Chongjin, Hwadae and Riwon and spied on its strategic targets for hours, being refueled in the midair. For hours with a midair refueling? Maybe they can't do anything.
The ceaseless illegal intrusions of their strategic reconnaissance planes on spy missions have created an imminent danger of military clash in the sky above those waters.
The KPA Air Force warns them once again that should those planes persist in their reckless air espionage despite its repeated warnings, they will not be able to escape the same end as that of a tiger moth fated to perish in the flames and the responsibility for that will wholly rest with the U.S. imperialist warmongers. Wonder if they got that one from Kung Fu?
#8
China controls North Korea - The Norkies looming misle test is synonymous wid saying a "Chinese/Chicom" missle test capable of threatening CONUS.Its China's overt ambitions for Asian and Pacific hegemony, not North Korea's.
#9
I've come across a good test for which side is the bad guy. You can always tell by which side uses grandiose language involving the forces of nature, predators vs. prey, hapless creatures, and invoking God. The good guys are the ones who just say something like "Quit it or we'll kick your butt!", "Damn the torpedoes!", "Nuts!", etc.. Try it. It works pretty good!
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 22:59 Comments ||
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SEOUL - North Korea has not yet begun fueling a long-range missile on its northeast coast, the final step before a possible launch, South Korean officials and analysts said on Friday. Activity around the site at Musudanri has been brisk over the past month, they said, but there is no sign that fuel injection had started.
North Korea has not yet reached the final stage of preparations to fire it. It has not yet started fuel injection, said Baek Seung-Joo from the government-backed Korean Institute for Defence Analyses. It will take at least two days to fill the rocket with liquid fuel and if they finish it, we can say they are ready to start the countdown, he told AFP.
It can't fly until they finish fueling it. Experts, what could we do without them.
Experts describe rocket fueling as the point of no return for a launch, because the process is both difficult and dangerous to reverse.
An unidentified military intelligence official was quoted as saying in a news report Friday that a long trailer, usually used to carry missiles, was spotted in the area but that there were no signs of trucks carrying fuel.
South Korea this week urged Pyongyang to abandon plans for the missile test that would have a negative impact on the international geopolitical situation and the settlement of North Koreas nuclear issue. A top official of the presidential Blue House said Thursday that the warning had been based on the governments judgment that North Korea might test-fire a missile but said the explicit movement for such a move had not begun.
Japan on Thursday downplayed the possibility of an imminent missile test after its ally the United States warned of a response if Pyongyang carried out a long-range launch. We are not in an extremely serious situation, Japanese Foreign Minister Taro Aso said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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Experts describe rocket fueling as the point of no return for a launch, because the process is both difficult and dangerous to reverse.
For North Koreans, countries with an average calorie intake above 1500 have solved this problem, that's right, drill bits are involved.
Germany called on Saturday for the world's leading nuclear powers to reduce their atomic arsenals as they press Iran to curb its nuclear program. Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier urged the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council -- the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France -- to make concessions in the context of the Iran dispute, Spiegel magazine reported. "I am in fact of the view that, beyond the current Iran conflict, we must review the worldwide nuclear armament status," Steinmeier told Spiegel. "We are in favor of effectively applying the Non-Proliferation Treaty. It contains the promise of the nuclear powers disarming, and we should press them to do that," he said.
The Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is a 1970 global pact against the spread of atomic weapons which is policed by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna. Germany, a non-nuclear power, and the five permanent U.N. Security Council members have offered Tehran a package under which Iran would get trade and technology benefits if it halts uranium enrichment work. "So far we have not had a clear sign, or a real reaction," Steinmeier said of the offer made to Iran. "What is positive, however, is that we are apparently for the first time seeing Iran in a state of reflection." Steinmeier added that he hoped Iran's leadership would "find the way through the open door".
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on Friday the United States had heard some positive statements from Tehran over the offer. Iran says its nuclear program is for power generation. The United States says it is a front for building nuclear arms.
Posted by: Captain America ||
06/17/2006 13:36 ||
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I always knew it was our fault that the Moolahs want to wipe Israel off the map.
Posted by: Captain America ||
06/17/2006 13:40 Comments ||
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I can think of a way to reduce the atomic arsenals...and, strangely enough, it involves Iran.
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/17/2006 14:53 Comments ||
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#5
"What is positive, however, is that we are apparently for the first time seeing Iran in a state of reflection."
That's the "stick" doing its job, with help from the carrot.
Steinmeier added that he hoped Iran's leadership would "find the way through the open door".
That's the carrot doing its job, with help from the stick.
So much for "Carrots and sticks won't fly on a persian carpet!"
Who knows, if this improves their lot enough, they might actually start to join the world community instead of rebelling against it for no good reason.
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 15:38 Comments ||
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#6
There would be great value in "going nuclear" on at least one of Iran's nuclear sites just to remind people after 61 years that not only do we have the arsenal, but we will use it if sufficently provoked. And Iran has been sufficiently provoking us for 27 years. Forget the Non-Proliferation Treaty -- Iran did by hiding their activities for many years.
#7
I'd like to see the US use a burrowing nuke on one of their "underground" facilities. Even if it doesn't actually reach the facility itself, the shock wave will destroy everything inside, and the radiation would make the area unusable for generations. I guess Iran isn't smart enough to realize that.
Not to mention that a big enough nuke - say, 1MT or greater - would set off a LOT of fault lines in the area, and Iran is honeycombed with them.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
06/17/2006 16:14 Comments ||
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#8
Complete the withdrawl from Germany.
Posted by: ed ||
06/17/2006 16:18 Comments ||
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#9
So Germany wants the US to get rid of our nukes?
Are they forgetting what kept them from having to speak Russian?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/17/2006 21:22 Comments ||
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Barbara, they think the charm of their leaders kept them safe all those years... or something. At any rate, it most definitely was despite those unnecessarily warlike Amis.
The fight against terrorism must observe the rule of law, French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin who is a man said in a thinly-veiled criticism of the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. 'In order for the fight against terrorism to be as effective as possible we have to act while respecting our values and our rules,' de Villepin said during a speech at the Institute of Higher Studies of National Defence.
'Let us avoid zones where there are no rights, let us reject anything that can give rise to arbitrariness, whether this means military interventions without the international community's authorisation, exceptional tribunals, or detention centres outside the framework of international law,' he said. 'The greatest determination in the face of terrorism, yes, but always while respecting the rule of law.'
The US military is holding 460 foreigners at the Guantanamo prison, many of whom were captured in Afghanistan in the war to oust the Taliban and Al Qaeda after the Sept 11 attacks.
#2
Considering a EU commission reviewed the conditions at Gitmo and found them superior to what France had to offer its own citizens, Vill must be working his material for a new comedy routine.
#4
Why does he care enough to open his mouth? I think everything he says requires a "Follow the money" traceback.
I wonder what his fee schedule is for bullshit.
Maybe I could pay him to trash somebody.
#8
Damn right Dominique (not a girl)! We need some new laws. Let me offer one. "Terrorists, and anybody who aids & abets then --- by word or deed, are enemies general of the humankind---to be dealt with as wolves are."
#9
I realize that no serious discussion is possible with any "man" with a signature like this.
But these comments are really, really out there, even for a despotic French tranzi. Since when is man-made law fixed and immutable? He suggests that society exists to serve the law, when the point of law is to serve society. We can't ignore the laws of physics -- which often work to terrorists' advantage -- but we can sure as hell ignore laws that require us to commit suicide.
Particularly where the "laws" he refers to are the nonbinding wishes of a body with no enforcement authority, rather than, oh, say, treaties ratified with the advice & consent of the US Senate.
I don't expect M. de Villepin to see this -- his "logic" just struck me as especially bizarre.
WASHINGTON - Murky procedures, lack of oversight and inadequate resources led to mistakes in the way U.S. troops treated Iraq and Afghanistan detainees. But two Pentagon reports, made public Friday, found no widespread mistreatment or illegal actions by the military.
A human rights group called the reports a whitewash that ignored countless documented accounts of detainee abuse.
One report detailed several incidents involving U.S. special operations forces in 2003-04. It said interrogators fed some Iraqi detainees only bread and water for up to 17 days, used unapproved interrogation practices such as sleep deprivation and loud music and stripped at least one prisoner. That report concluded the detainees' treatment was wrong but not illegal and reflected inadequate resources and lack of oversight and proper guidance rather than deliberate abuse. No military personnel were punished as a result of the investigation.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/17/2006 12:59 ||
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Timed for maximum anti-Bush impact, with a grossly overblown headline brought to you by ACLU-NYSLIMES publications.
Posted by: Captain America ||
06/17/2006 14:11 Comments ||
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His report found "no systematic or widespread mistreatment of detainees," but concluded that the opportunities for mistreatment and the ever-changing battlefield there demanded changes in procedures.
#3
"Both the Formica and the Jacoby report demonstrate that the government is really not taking the investigation of detainee abuse seriously," said Amrit Singh, an ACLU attorney.
Oh, far more so than the headchoppers whose behavior you don't give a rat's ass about. Professional courtesy on your part?
Inside the Revolution in Nepal:
Interview with Comrade Prachanda
Li Onesto, Revolutionary Worker: There are revolutionary people all over the world who want to hear about the People's War in Nepal. So it would be of great interest if you could give a basic picture of the objective situation and what the material basis in Nepal is for initiating People's War. Why does the party think it is possible to wage protracted People's War, to organize the masses through armed struggle? Why is this the correct strategy given the situation in Nepal? And why does the party feel it is possible to win with this strategy?
#2
Prachanda is going to be running Nepal in a few months.
The maoists have been taken into the Nepalese government. They are going to rewrite the constitution.
Prachanda's first statement was that the Nepalese army was to be reduced to 20000 men.
He wants a weak force that his cadres acn overwhelm at will.
He stated they will train a militia, a few million strong to fight "the Indians or the Americans, if they come"
Posted by: john ||
06/17/2006 9:06 Comments ||
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Also, note what he said about Nepal being 3 times its present size (a rather bizarre reading of history). He is implicitly claiming Indian territory.
Also his comment that guerilla war with the Indian army is inevitable.
A nexus with islamists has already been shown.
Nepal will emerge as a base for international terror...
Posted by: john ||
06/17/2006 9:09 Comments ||
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#4
Thanks for the highlights. It's sad that you have to post a propaganda sheet because the MSM is AWOL.
The United States has accepted Islamabad's request to give Pakistan consular access to its nationals imprisoned at the Guantanamo Bay, Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri told the National Assembly during the Question Hour on Friday. Kasuri said that government efforts earlier resulted in the release of 60 Pakistani prisoners from the Guantanamo Bay prison, adding that currently six Pakistanis were detained at the prison and the release of two of them was under consideration. He said that Pakistan was in constant contact with the US authorities over the detainees issue.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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Long, long piece from NYT. I'm not mil/ex-mil so I'm not going to comment on tactics, etc.
What really happened in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005?
On that day, marines killed 24 Iraqi civilians, including 10 women and children and an elderly man in a wheelchair. But how and why it happened and who ultimately bears responsibility are matters of profound dispute.
Interviews with marines who were present that day or their lawyers, Iraqi residents who witnessed the attack and military investigators provide broadly conflicting accounts of the killings. This article, based on those interviews, does not resolve those discrepancies. But it does lay bare the task facing investigators as they try to square the accounts with ambiguous forensic evidence, and suggests that the work will be hindered by the passage of time, the tricks of memory and the fog of fast-paced action at several different locations in Haditha, a tense Euphrates River valley city, seven months ago.
Investigators and townspeople have said that marines overreacted to a fatal roadside bombing and shot the civilians, only one of whom was armed, in cold blood.
ROME - Italy will have completed the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq within three to four months, junior defence minister Lorenzo Forcieri said on Friday. In three months, four at the most, all the Italian troops will have returned from Iraq, Forcieri was quoted by the Ansa news agency as saying during a visit to Malta.
On Wednesday Italy began a further reduction of its troop strength, which will be down to 1,600 men by the end of June.
Forcieri said the precise timetable for withdrawing Italian troops was atechnical matter. The military is in the process of deciding, but we are talking about three, four months for the complete withdrawal of our troops, he said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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(KUNA) -- Iraqi President Jalal Al-Talabani condemned Friday the suicide attack that targeted a mosque here earlier today. A statement released by Talabani said "these despicable crimes committed and during the Friday prayers are another proof that the Sadamists and the expiatory who disguise behind religion are driven by evil intents that are anti religion, morals and norms." He said the declared and open war launched by the terrorists against te Iraqi people are enticing hatred and triggering intrigues and wars." Talabani urged all parties, religious and prominent figures to condemn the perpetrators of these crimes and enhance the Iraqi national texture.
The attack on Buratha Mosque in Baghdad by a suicide bomber earlier in the day left 11 people dead and 25 others wounded. The suicide bomber blew himself up in the middle of the crowd in Buratha Mosque. New security measures are currently in effect in Baghdad and the measures include curfew on automotives in the day time on Fridays.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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Hamas militants distanced themselves on Friday from a ceasefire offer that the Palestinian government led by the Islamist group made to Israel, while other armed groups also spurned the proposal.
Ummm... Hamas is distancing itself from an offer Hamas made? I'll betcha Hamas is really mad at... ummm... Hamas.
... mayhaps the bodyguards had a few words with the bigs ...
No worries, they can always blame the Jooos! Palace politix can be a bit murky, especially when you can't remember if you're s'posed to be the political wing, the armed wing, or the breakaway faction on any given day...
Differences over the truce offer, which was conditional on Israel stopping raids and air strikes in Gaza and the West Bank, could point to disagreement between the Hamas grassroots and the government over tactics. Hamas's armed wing scrapped a 16-month truce with Israel a week ago and soon after launched a barrage of makeshift rockets at the Jewish state from the Gaza Strip. But a government spokesman made a new ceasefire offer on Thursday.
After Israel gently pointed out they know where Haniyeh lives...For Now.
"We are not interested in making any offers or proposals," said Sami Abu Zuhri, official spokesman for the Hamas movement.
"But please turn off that little red dot on my forehead!"
Posted by: Fred ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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Just replace all the word 'Hamas' as well as all verbs and nouns with the word 'Marklar'. It'll make a lot more sense.
"Marklar, these marklars want to change your marklar. They don't want this Marklar or any of his marklars to live here because it's bad for their marklar. They use Marklar and Marklar to try and force marklars to believe their marklar. If you let them stay here, they will build marklars and marklars. They will take all your marklars and replace them with their Marklar. These marklars have no good marklar to live on Marklar, so they must come here to Marklar. Please, let these marklars stay where they can grow and prosper without any marklars, marklars, or marklars."
#3
Seems as though the government is trying to show how separate it is from the guys with the guns. "See, world? My left hand has absolutely no control over my right! You can't blame the left hand for what the right hand is doing, now can you? All right, it makes sense to us. And the French."
Go ahead, Hamas. Pi$$ Israel off. I've always wondered what a fight between a rabbit and a doberman would look like.
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 5:43 Comments ||
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#5
Troll alert. "All rights reserved," indeed. Who would want to be linked to such stupid, posturing, uncreative drivel? It's one thing to be suspected of having an IQ well below the species average; it is quite another to demonstrate it conclusively.
#6
For those who read my apparently pointless ravings afterward, my comment above was directed at the unnecessarily rude post of JUSTICE. His comment was subsequently trolled by the moderators, to whom I am, as always, grateful.
#7
Darn, I went to sleep and missed all the action!
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 14:50 Comments ||
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#8
I just discovered the sink trap!
Hey, Dipweed Justice: Some people need lessons in math, some need lessons in risk management, logic, consequences, the difference between the ideal (which we both agree on, probably) and the practical, and some need to be able to look through other people's eyes and understand what motivates them (even if it is evil).
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 15:06 Comments ||
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#9
Wash up grb, and um.... stay downwind for a thread or two. :>
EU leaders have endorsed an estimated 100 million euro (126 million dollar) aid package to the Palestinians, to be paid via a new funding mechanism from next month, a spokeswoman said on Friday. The European Commission spokeswoman said the aid package was divided into three suitcases for easier checkpoint crossings parts, including an element focused on the health sector, extending a funding programme currently operating through the World Bank.
The other two parts were a contribution for essential utilities, including fuel, and a "social safety net" to come into effect later which would involve paying money directly into accounts of individuals based on their needs, from each Euro taxpayer based on his or her ability. "We are proposing something in the order of 100 million euros," said Emma Udwin, spokeswoman for EU external affairs, without specifying what period of time it would be distributed over.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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"new funding mechanism from next month"...what, the suitcases are already full?
Posted by: Captain America ||
06/17/2006 0:24 Comments ||
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#2
For greater efficiency the EU should establish the position of Permanent Secretary for Appeasement. Perhaps Jacques Chirac or Dominique de Villepin (who is a man) could fill the role.
#6
I *was* heartened when the EU actually called off the spigot, but now they're back to their old stupid tricks.
JFM, maybe the people of Darfur should start threatening to blow up the Louvre. I'm sure the EU would find cash to send to them in about three hours if they did.
#7
The European Commission has been trying to draw up a mechanism that would see funds reaching Palestinians in need without money going directly to the Hamas-led government
This from the folks that watched al-Zahar walk 20 mil in right under their noses. I'm sure all that went to baby formula and Dick and Jane books...
If the EU wants to support Hamas ad infinitum, so be it - you can't fix insanity. The Arabs who have been so slow to help will certainly apreciate it. The Persian Mullahs, well, their sun will soon set.
Regardless, not another penney of US aid should go into PaleoWorld. Nothing. They voted for terror, let them continue to eat, drink, and dream terror. That is the only thing they actually get right, anyway. Just no longer on my dime, please.
#9
Perhaps the homegrown islamonuts have threatened riots and mayhen if money to Hamas isn't turned back on tout de suite.
Appeasement tactic - o surrender monkeys - and you should know by now just how well "appeasing" terrorists works. But, too scared to think straight, it seems.
#12
Dear EUros, your grandparents---who were rounding Jews on behalf of Nazis---also thought that they're safe from retaliation. We've very long memories.
#14
If the EU wants to support Hamas ad infinitum, so be it - you can't fix insanity. The Arabs who have been so slow to help will certainly apreciate it.
The reason Arab countries don't "help" the Palestinians has nothing to do with reluctance, greed, etc. It's because the money coming from non-Muslim countries isn't "aid" or "assistance" or "charity" -- it's tribute.
And why should Arab nations pay tribute to another Arab nation?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
06/17/2006 12:00 Comments ||
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#15
Any US Paleo aid should be redirected to Israel's Wall Fund
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/17/2006 14:15 Comments ||
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#16
#2: For greater efficiency the EU should establish the position of Permanent Secretary for Appeasement. Perhaps Jacques Chirac or Dominique de Villepin (who is a man) could fill the role.
Posted by: DMFD
Good idea. The PSA. Would streamline funding to the Paleos. Too bad that they cannot fly those suitcases of money directly to Gaza International.
Posted by: Alaska Paul at Bethel, AK ||
06/17/2006 16:29 Comments ||
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#17
"Bomb Brussels!" - the new agenda of Hamas, to get more money.
I'm all for the first, just not the second.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
06/17/2006 16:39 Comments ||
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Marines successfully completed two non-stop, coast-to-coast flights this week with a pair of MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft, as a precursor to a transatlantic flight to England with the same Ospreys in July.
The unconventional Osprey started life with some very bad publicity but now that the unconventional machine is working properly, it is beginning to offer an entirely new way of doing things, adding an important new tool to the Marine armoury.
"Unlike conventional rotary wing aircraft, which must be transported into overseas theaters of operation aboard amphibious shipping or heavy lift transport planes, the V-22 can self-deploy thousands of miles over water to get itself to the fight," said Col. Bill Taylor, V-22 Osprey joint program manager.
Continued on Page 49
#1
...Man, this beast is harder to kill than Dracula. OTOH, if - and that's a BIG if - they've gotten the bugs settled down, a transatlantic flight would be a helluva demonstration of what we can do with it.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
06/17/2006 12:12 Comments ||
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#2
Doesn't the Joint Force Striker render ole ostrich obsolete?
Posted by: Captain America ||
06/17/2006 14:16 Comments ||
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#3
I agree, Mike. I've always wanted this beast to succeed, but it seemed to be too buggy and complex. I wondered how it stayed on the table, to be honest. Somebody had something big on someone.
If they've got it worked out, now, if it can stand operational tempos and be reasonably maintained, then hallelujah.
#5
Does anyone remember the bugs it had? I remember something about a hydraulic line breaking and some people getting killed. Regrettable, but not a reason to scrap the idea, which is pretty good if they could get it to work.
Posted by: grb ||
06/17/2006 15:16 Comments ||
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grb - there were some problems with the linkages during rotation from vertical to horizontal flight, there were fuel leaks from the main tanks to the engines, and there were some problems with structural integrity caused by vibrations during rotation. The engines initially had problems of cutting out during rotation at about 70 degrees, but that was overcome by increasing pressure in the fuel lines. That led to discovery of the fuel leaks. There were a couple of spectacular crashes, including one where a bunch of Marines were killed (I don't remember how many).
A lot of the problems were the same ones the Navy dealt with with the vertical takeoff fighter program from the late 1950's. Guess lessons learned were later forgotten. At least the stability problems of the vtol fighters didn't play a part with the Osprey.
I hope all the bugs have been worked out. It's a great concept, and if it helps keep Marines alive, I'm all for it.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
06/17/2006 16:50 Comments ||
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#7
I hope the bugs're worked out (even more than you). The flight plan from Marines' Miramar base to Yuma is directly over my place... they actually had to increase their path height due to noise from the current choppers - Sea Knights?
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/17/2006 17:03 Comments ||
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#8
my $0.02 worth--
First generation technology usualy has a steep and painful learning curve. Consider the early (1950's) Jet aircraft and Helicopters. They killed a lot of people while finding out the real world limits of what the tech could do. MV-22 is no exception.
The main thing is that it is taking place with peacetime procurement rules and methods, and with our modern sensitivity to fatalities, so it is even more painful to watch.
Posted by: N guard ||
06/17/2006 17:05 Comments ||
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#9
It is still suffering from a couple of major issues that are of no effect in sustained flight but will be troublesome in combat modes.
First if theyt are going to load it full of gas or in air refuel it and deploy it, like we can aleady do with the MH-47, then when it get to theater it will need extensive maintenance. This wil require removal of tanks and all the maintenance surrounding the blade hours flown. This is minor but it is the reason we do not self deploy the 47's.
Second, they have not figured out the fast rope issues of cooking the troops as they exit the aircraft, lots of hot exaust. They can and in time will fix this but as I understand it right now it is still an issue. So the aircraft must land to unload the troops. This will make this aircraft a transport and supply bird, not the assault bird as advertised.
Third and probably the hardest to overcome is is the aerodynamic issue with self induce settling with power. As the aircraft transitions to a hover in the decent it must do so in a straight line, no turning. If they turn the aircraft and one of the rotor systems drops into a vorticy ring state it will lose lift on that side and roll over, the pilot will not be able to recover. This reduced the aircraft's combat capability to move when entering an objective site. This is another engineering milestone that must get fixed.
The hydrolic issues were standard aviation bugs and maintenance procedures associted with the development of a new airframe, not really a big issue and I understand they were fixed.
Posted by: 49 Pan ||
06/17/2006 17:15 Comments ||
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#10
started life with some very bad publicity
Third and probably the hardest to overcome is is the aerodynamic issue with self induce settling with power. As the aircraft transitions to a hover in the decent it must do so in a straight line, no turning. If they turn the aircraft and one of the rotor systems drops into a vorticy ring state it will lose lift on that side and roll over, the pilot will not be able to recover
:<
We all want this to work, but it's killed more Marines any MIG.
#11
The SPARROW AAM had dubious beginnings as well during air combat over Vietnam, but the US had faith in its promise and future - bugs were not only worked out, but SPARROW has become the basis formanhy contemo designx.
#12
The Blackhawk helicopter had killed four or five crews before they sorted out the slew issue on the stabalator. The Cobra had a nasty habit of snapping the pitch change links and killing the crews. The Ch-47 Sync gearbox was a constant killer and the OH-58 has still the issues of LTE. The list goes on forever.
Point here is the aircraft, CV22 is leading edge technology, it will have issues and those will cause crashes and loss of life. This is no real surprise to aviators, they know the risks and trust DOD to be working them out. The reason this aircraft will win out in the end is its ability to go deep, fast, and carry a good number of troops to an objective site without needing a runway. This is a capability we do not have and we need for this war and the next.
Posted by: 49 Pan ||
06/17/2006 23:13 Comments ||
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June 17, 2006: Whoever thought a radar gun and an airbag could provide protection from RPGs. The U.S. has spent billions of dollars in the last few years, to make unarmored vehicles less vulnerable to RPGs and roadside bombs. All that money has made it possible for a lot of odd ideas to be tested. One of these is TRAPS (Tactical RPG Airbag Protection System). This uses a modified car airbag, the radar technology found in police radar guns, and some pretty basic control software. Once TRAPS is turned on, it's radar constantly scans for any object fitting the size and speed profile of an incoming RPG warhead. If one is detected, the airbag deploys, and sets off the RPG warhead a safe distance from the vehicle. A system capable of protecting a small military vehicle, like a hummer, would weigh about 125 pounds, run off the vehicle power supply and cost about $10,000.
The basic concept was tested, and it will take another year to get a production model built, tested and manufactured for the troops. As weird as TRAPS sounds, keep in mind that the most successful air-to-air missile ever designed, the U.S. Sidewinder, came into existence the same way half a century ago. Some researchers took off-the-shelf technology (a standard 127mm free flight rocket, an infrared heat sensor, a battery and some simple electromechanical controls) and got the missile working in a few months. Effective technology doesn't have to be expensive, it just has to be well thought out, and do the job at a price the user can afford.
Posted by: Steve ||
06/17/2006 07:36 ||
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#1
I think I need one of those to drive through Memphis at night. Would probably stop bricks and bottles even better than RPG's.
SOLO: Indonesian hardline cleric Abu Bakar Bashir told a Muslim congregation on Friday, two days after his release from jail, to fight for Islam and ignore criticism branding those involved in the struggle as terrorists. Bashir, who Western and regional intelligence officials say was once spiritual leader of the Al Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiah militant network, was freed on Wednesday after serving time over the 2002 Bali bombings that killed 202 people.
In a Friday sermon at the Al-Mukmin Islamic school he co-founded, the 67-year old cleric told students and sympathisers the movement to spread Islam to the world is a costly campaign. Bashir said being called terrorists or hardliners during the struggle was a light price to pay. The Prophet was accused of being crazy. The infidels have not yet accused us of being crazy.
I thought we'd already made that observation?
I don't think he's crazy, I think he's evil.
"I was accused as a terrorist but they said I was still sound, he said, referring to the obstacles Prophet Mohammad (PTUI PBUH) faced when introducing Islam in the 7th century. Do not hesitate in maintaining the faith until death. The form is through jihad whether defined as struggling or combating infidels. From preaching to education and jihad ... thats already a war, said Bashir, wearing a white skull cap and shirt. For what? Only for one purpose. To uphold the faith. The faith is more expensive than any wealth in the world, more valuable than children, wife or even life itself, said the preacher, whose sermon was heard by hundreds sitting silently on the floor of the school mosque.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/17/2006 00:00 ||
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U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton hinted that the Security Council may adopt new measures to "increase pressure" on Syria if it fails to abide by a resolution that urged it to establish diplomatic relations with Lebanon and demarcate the common border. "I think it is important for us to make Syria understand that we were serious in our last resolution and if the Syrians don't act we have to decide on our next move," Bolton said in an interview with Al-Hayat newspaper.
The next step, he said, "may be a new resolution to increase pressure on them (the Syrians)."
When asked when the Security Council would act, Bolton said he did not know the exact timing but that the new resolution could be passed after U.N. special envoy Terje Roed-Larsen's next report which is due in October. "Maybe we will not need to wait all that time," he added.
Continued on Page 49
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Germany called on Saturday for the world's leading nuclear powers to reduce their atomic arsenals as they press Iran to curb its nuclear program. Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier urged the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council -- the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France -- to make concessions in the context of the Iran dispute, Spiegel magazine reported. "I am in fact of the view that, beyond the current Iran conflict, we must review the worldwide nuclear armament status," Steinmeier told Spiegel. "We are in favor of effectively applying the Non-Proliferation Treaty. It contains the promise of the nuclear powers disarming, and we should press them to do that," he said.
The fight against terrorism must observe the rule of law, French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin 
The United States has accepted Islamabad's request to give Pakistan consular access to its nationals imprisoned at the Guantanamo Bay, Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri told the National Assembly during the Question Hour on Friday. Kasuri said that government efforts earlier resulted in the release of 60 Pakistani prisoners from the Guantanamo Bay prison, adding that currently six Pakistanis were detained at the prison and the release of two of them was under consideration. He said that Pakistan was in constant contact with the US authorities over the detainees issue.
(KUNA) -- Iraqi President Jalal Al-Talabani condemned Friday the suicide attack that targeted a mosque here earlier today. A statement released by Talabani said "these despicable crimes committed and during the Friday prayers are another proof that the Sadamists and the expiatory who disguise behind religion are driven by evil intents that are anti religion, morals and norms." He said the declared and open war launched by the terrorists against te Iraqi people are enticing hatred and triggering intrigues and wars." Talabani urged all parties, religious and prominent figures to condemn the perpetrators of these crimes and enhance the Iraqi national texture.
Hamas militants distanced themselves on Friday from a ceasefire offer that the Palestinian government led by the Islamist group made to Israel, while other armed groups also spurned the proposal. 
SOLO: Indonesian hardline cleric Abu Bakar Bashir told a Muslim congregation on Friday, two days after his release from jail, to fight for Islam and ignore criticism branding those involved in the struggle as terrorists. Bashir, who Western and regional intelligence officials say was once spiritual leader of the Al Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiah militant network, was freed on Wednesday after serving time over the 2002 Bali bombings that killed 202 people. 
U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton hinted that the Security Council may adopt new measures to "increase pressure" on Syria if it fails to abide by a resolution that urged it to establish diplomatic relations with Lebanon and demarcate the common border. "I think it is important for us to make Syria understand that we were serious in our last resolution and if the Syrians don't act we have to decide on our next move," Bolton said in an interview with Al-Hayat newspaper.
