Millionaire adventurer Steve Fossett decided Wednesday to press ahead with his attempt to fly around the world solo without refueling, despite a serious problem with the plane's fuel system. Fossett and his flight crew agreed Wednesday afternoon to keep the GlobalFlyer in the air rather than abandoning the record-setting attempt and turning back for a landing in Japan. He is now heading east over the Pacific Ocean, and the team expects to decide Wednesday night after reaching Hawaii whether to press on to the U.S. mainland.
Fossett discovered the problem with the fuel system of the custom-built plane early Wednesday. Project manager Paul Moore said fuel sensors in the 13 tanks differ from readings of how quickly the plane's single jet engine was burning fuel. Moore said the crew had been forced to assume that 2,600 pounds of the original 18,100 pounds of fuel "disappeared" early in the flight.
Just how do you lose 2,600 pounds of fuel?
It was not clear whether the problem was with the instruments that track how much fuel remains or if some fuel had been lost because of a leak, Fossett's team said. "This is a huge setback," Fossett said from the plane, according to a statement issued by his staff. "I have not that high a level of confidence at this point."
Fossett, 60, still might be able to finish the flight on his original path, if a tail wind in the jet stream remains strong enough to push him across the Pacific. Before the fuel problem was discovered, Fossett had estimated he would complete the 23,000-mile journey at midday Thursday. He took off Monday from Salina (Kansas). Fossett already holds the record for flying solo around the globe in a balloon, as well as dozens of other aviation and sailing records.
The project is being financed by Virgin Atlantic founder Sir Richard Branson, a longtime friend and fellow adventurer.
After 42 hours of flight, following the loss of 2,600 lbs of fuel in the early stages of the flight, Steve Fossett has decided to cross the Pacific Ocean at least as far as Hawaii. Despite the earlier loss of fuel that means Steve may possibly not make it back to Salina, he will aim to get as far a Hawaii where he will re-assess the situation. Steve and Mission Control are taking one step at a time.
Steve is nearly in daylight and will to continue have 100 knot tailwinds assisting his flight until Hawaii. After this point, however, the winds are expected to be only around 40 knots, which could cause problems as Steve needs at least 58 knots to make his fuel last all the way in. Mission Control have also advised Steve to slow his flight speed down to increase overall efficiency, and to conserve fuel.
Steve's view was that he was still "very hopeful" of making it back to Salina.
The pumping of fuel between tanks will continue. The wing tip tanks have been drained and the pumping of fuel from the mid-wing tanks is nearly complete.
Sir Richard Branson said of the situation: "I think it's too soon to be confident that he'll make it all the way around the world... I think by the time he reaches Hawaii we'll have a pretty good idea of whether he'll make it."
Posted by: Steve ||
03/02/2005 4:33:56 PM ||
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...My guess would be bad sensors in the first place told them they had more fuel than they did. He's not out of the game yet, though, and I wish him success.
Slightly OT, SpaceShipOne is headed for the Smithsonian. Understand it will be on the main display floor with the Mercury, Apollo, X1, and others.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
03/02/2005 19:41 Comments ||
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Just how do you lose 2,600 pounds of fuel?
next time, get a real gas cap, not just a rag stuffed in the pipe
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 19:43 Comments ||
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That is some funny stuff..
One of the regulars here sent it to me last week.
I have a Gmail account that allow large files like that to be received.
Know anyone who needs a free 1 gig gmail account ( you can even pop them now) I have invites for you E-mail me at (remove spaces and such) F l a m e b a i t a t g m a i l dot c o m.
And now, the Most Misleading Article Summary Oscar is awarded to... Pravda, for:
US forces supposedly used a secret weapon in Iraq, which resulted in a powerful earthquake
Viktor Bokov, a scientist from St.Petersburg, deals with short-term earthquake forecasts. The information about the forthcoming disaster in Southeast Asia, which killed 215,000 people, appeared on the website of the Arctic and Antarctic Institute (on which Bokov's forecasts are regularly published) two days before the tsunami hit the Asian shores.
This could be interesting, if true...
"Such an important event was left without any attention. I cannot come to the Russian government and just tell them that an upcoming natural disaster will kill tens of thousands of people. I tried to work in the EMERCOM of Russia, and they were very interested in my methods. As soon as they grasped the idea of my work, they immediately turned my services down and started working alone, forecasting earthquakes. Their work was not successful, though," the scientist said....
Not less than ten earthquakes occur in the world on a daily basis. Viktor Bokov predicts them several days before they rock the ground. Specialists from Japan and Russia's Far East use the scientist's forecasts regularly to avoid any victims in seismically dangerous areas...
Alleged predictions of Turkish and Algerian quakes deleted
...Viktor Bokov's method is based on observations of daily weather changes. Each part of the globe is characterized with its certain peculiarities that may cause an earthquake.
"The Antarctic Institute receives the data from the European weather forecasts center every day. It is enough for me just to have a look at it to realize where a quake is likely to occur. The sun and the atmospheric pressure have the largest influence on the seismological situation on our planet. The Earth's atmosphere weighs 512 trillion tons. This mass of air has a permanent enormous pressure on Earth, making landscape hills and plains. As soon as the atmosphere increases, the tectonic activity grows too; the ground starts shaking when the tension in tectonic plates reaches its peak.
Forecasts of the St. Petersburg scientist are more precise than any other seismological forecasts.
When airplanes land in St.Petersburg's Pulkovo airport, seismographs register slight quakes measured 2.0 on the Richter scale. Human beings do not sense the ground vibrations. Viktor Bokov says that a strong earthquake will rock the city by 2024. "It will not be a 9.0 quake on the Richter Scale, but a 6-7 magnitude is rather possible. A 6.0-magnitude quake can be compared to an explosion of a hundred of A-bombs," the scientist warned.
Seismologists often deal with versions, which say that earthquakes may have an artificial origin sometimes as well. It is particularly said that they occur as a result of tectonic weapon tests, supposedly conducted by Russia and the USA.
And this is where the sleight of hand occurs...
"Weapon tests can cause an earthquake indeed, but they take place on a very small territory. Such local earthquakes cannot shake the ground thousands of kilometers around," the scientist explained. "When a powerful earthquake rocked Georgia, they said that it occurred over the use of the tectonic weapon. I even had several consultations with Georgian specialists - they wanted to know if the earthquake had been predicted. A similar situation occurred in Iraq - it was said that the US forces used a secret weapon in the country. I carefully studied the results of the seismological analysis, and I can assure you that it was an absolutely natural earthquake," Viktor Bokov said.
So now the Russians are talking about the Tectonic Weapon. I suspect this whole thing got started when someone read about seismometers being used to monitor nuclear tests and became confused.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
03/02/2005 12:08:00 AM ||
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Phil, I think they have scalar weapons on mind.
#2
The vast seething ocean of energy of the vacuum, the longitudinal scalar EM waves of the time domain, can now be tapped and "transduced" into ordinary (transverse) EM energy in our 3-Space world.
#4
Viktor Bokovâs method is based on observations of daily weather changes. Each part of the globe is characterized with its certain peculiarities that may cause an earthquake
I actually find this interesting. Californians often refer to "earthquake weather". As a born/bred Califonian (no longer living there) - I assure you - we all know exactly what that means.
#6
The information about the forthcoming disaster in Southeast Asia, which killed 215,000 people, appeared on the website of the Arctic and Antarctic Institute (on which Bokovâs forecasts are regularly published) two days before the tsunami hit the Asian shores.
#7
Cool website, Sobiesky. For a minute there, as I scrolled down, I thought I was going to see the order form for the Time Machine as seen in "Napoleon Dynamite."
A WOMAN has filed a lawsuit against the US city of Norwalk for exposure to her colleagues' perfumes and colognes, alleging officials have failed to lessen her exposure to such scents in the town clerk's office and that she is being harassed. The suit's filing was reported by The Advocate newspaper in Connecticut, which said that plaintiff Linda Gorman was also seeking lotsa money an unspecified amount of monetary damages and lawyer's fees.
According to the suit, Gorman's problems started in March 2002, when Town Clerk Andrew Garfunkel hired a temporary staffer whose choice of perfume made Gorman ill. Garfunkel issued a memo asking employees not to wear perfumes or colognes, but later amended his policy to state that trendy scents, as well as body lotions and detergents, could be used in moderation as long as they could not be detected within 1.6 metres of Gorman. The temporary hire no longer works at the Norwalk town clerk's office, but in October 2002, another employee was hired who also liked to sport perfume. The aromas are so strong to Gorman she has to take daily shots of prescription allergy medicines as well as allergy shots, her lawsuit claimed. Gorman also alleges that Garfunkel gave her negative performance reviews despite her above average performance, delayed her overtime payments, and deliberately moved her work station to further provoke
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 00:00:00 ||
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#1
As somebody with severe allergies to perfumes and colognes. I think they should be treated as severely as smoking....
But that's just my humble opinion and I know most will hate me for it.
A WOMAN has filed a lawsuit against the US city of Norwalk
This is Norwalk, Cnnecticut. There is also a Norwalk, California, Population 100,000, about six miles north of where I sit right now, and where I served Jury Duty in 1999...
POINT 2 -
...No no not perfume!!! I'm melting...melting woooooooo... what a world, what a world....
- - - - - -
Lemee see, she also has a kid allergic to peanuts, so she got all peanut products banned from the school, right?
#3
Concur, 3dc. Am not alergic to it in the medical sense, but I hate that with passion. Drives me bonkers. Postal. Ballistic. Pushes my buttons on the same level as someone being hysterical...
I think I conveyed it accurately -- as best as I could.
#5
#2. Point 1. Ed, I doubt that an employee of the city of Norwalk, CA would bring suit in a Connecticut court.
Point 2. Is Hillary allergic to perfume? That is her picture,right?
#6
Yes, treat a fellow co-worker as you would want to be treated. Golden Rule "Do un to Other's as others do un to you". Save the spicy perfume for the night life or on weekends- non-work hour's.
This is typical in the workplace- demotion's, change in work status, lawsuit's blaming the victim.
ANdrea Jackson
Posted by: ANdrea Jackson ||
03/02/2005 12:36 Comments ||
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I always take showers and use moderate Cologne what doe's Gorman use on her ? Chicken Manure and Kerosene ! Get real , folks ! Thank God ! Not her Gimp or Hubby !
A girl was unlawfully excluded from school for wearing a traditional Muslim gown, Appeal Court judges have ruled. Lord Justice Brooke said Denbigh High School in Luton, Beds, denied Shabina Begum, 16 - now at another school - the right to manifest her religion. He called for more guidance for schools on complying with the Human Rights Act. Miss Begum called the ruling a victory for Muslims who wanted to preserve their identity and values". The school said it had lost on a technicality. Miss Begum, whose parents are both dead, had worn a regulation shalwar kameez (trousers and tunic) until September 2002 when she informed the school authorities she intended to wear a full-length gown called a jilbab.
[snip]
The ruling, which has major implications for multi-faith schools across the country, has been welcomed by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) as a "common-sense approach". MCB Secretary-General Iqbal Sacranie said: "This is a very important ruling on the issue of personal freedoms. The British Muslim community is a diverse community in terms of the interpretation and understanding of their faith and its practice. "Within this broad spectrum those that believe and choose to wear the jilbab and consider it to be part of their faith requirement for modest attire should be respected."
Saying nothing of the girls who will now be forced to wear this cloak in order that they won't appear immodest to their family and peers. Another step on the path to Dhimmitude.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/02/2005 7:24:40 AM ||
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I believe we allow dreadlocks, turbans, jewish skullcap thingymajigs amongst other stuff. However, we will now see schoolchildren wearing burkas - a completely inappropriate form of apparel for school. When I have children I feel like making them attend school wearing druidic robes, antlers and with bells tied to their ankles - cos that's 'seemingly' their religious right. (Only I'm not that f*ckin cruel.)
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/02/2005 9:19 Comments ||
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Begum, who was represented in the high-profile case by Cherie Booth (search), wife of Prime Minister Tony Blair, called Wednesday's judgment "a victory for all Muslims who wish to preserve their identity and values despite prejudice and bigotry."
At least three objections have been lodged against the wedding between Britain's Prince Charles and his longtime mistress Camilla Parker-Bowles in the latest hiccup to their plans, a newspaper said yesterday. The legal complaints, or caveats, were delivered to the head of the registrar office in Cirencester, Gloucestershire, southwest England, which covers Charles' countryside retreat of Highgrove, the Daily Mail reported. If they provide a convincing argument, any one of the documents could prevent the two divorcees from holding a civil marriage ceremony on April 8, it said. "I can confirm that at least three objections have been received by the Cirencester office and I have copied the one lodged by Williamson," Diane Waddington, registrar for Chippenham in Wiltshire, told the daily.Â
He's gonna wish they'd just shacked up in a trailer park in the rural South.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/02/2005 12:04:39 AM ||
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#1
If he and Camilla are serious, he should abdicate in favor of "Wills", and go riding off in the sunset to Bermuda like his great-uncle "Eddie" did when marrying my distant cousin "Wallis"
#5
Screw it, just hop the plane to Vegas. If it was good enough for the 'King' its good enough for the Prince. And what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
[*just remind the Prince that it is Las Vegas, Nevada, not Las Vegas, New Mexico which, BTW, hosts an international confab that the Prince sponsors.]
#6
I find it hard to have any sympathy for this guy after that recent incident where he wrote a memo chastising a palace employee for aspiring to be promoted. His point was that people should understand their limitations -- their place in life. This, coming from the poster boy for the "I-did-nothing-of-substance-to-earn-my-position-in-life" group.
#8
But his great-uncle "Eddie" didn't step down until after he was crowned, something Master Charles has been suffering his whole life waiting to acquire. The selfish pig isn't likely to give up the golden vision unless forced to it.
#9
I wuld suggest Vegas also- that is about all Camilla deserves!***
Andrea Jackson
Posted by: ANdrea Jackson ||
03/02/2005 12:31 Comments ||
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#10
I wuld suggest Vegas also- that is about all Camilla deserves!***
Andrea Jackson
Posted by: ANdrea Jackson ||
03/02/2005 12:31 Comments ||
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Ms. Andrea...
Vegas?
Look at the map of Nevada.
There are plenty of rural out-of-the-way counties with the same laws as Vegas... and more "ROYAL PRIVACY"
My wife and I were married in Vegas. She is foreign, and had no family here, and I chose not to involve any of my family except my mom, the witness, who was provided a room at a different hotel, and an ample supply of quarters for the slots...
#13
Big Ed - I second that....got married there a little over 5 months ago. We loved it, and believe it or not, Andrea, it was beautifully done by the chapel we chose. Our little party of 25 had a blast.
Personally, I wish the two of them the best of luck.
#14
Big Ed. All that matters is that the union will last- till death do it part. I really don't care~ I'll never marry for personal reason's.
Vegas is not a spot that I would chose- to each is own. From what I have been told it's a quicky
place to marry in and they do NOT turn anyone away. So...that is where they should go and get it over with.
Andrea Jackson
Posted by: ANdrea Jackson ||
03/02/2005 15:10 Comments ||
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Trailing Wife- have you seen or heard from Barbara Skolaut??Might want to put out an A.P.B.
on the Rantburg system.
Andrea Jackson
Posted by: ANdrea Jackson ||
03/02/2005 15:12 Comments ||
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#16
she was in yesterday
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 15:12 Comments ||
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#17
I'm alive, guys. Thanks for the concern, Andrea.
Just been swamped with work and family stuff & traveling the last few weeks.
Well, off again.... See ya'. Keep the 'Burg warm for me. ;-p
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
03/02/2005 17:56 Comments ||
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Andrea, dear, Barbara is an EMT or another emergency-related profession. She checks in when she can, but when she doesn't I make the assumption that people's lives or something similarly important is at stake -- so I figure best not to joggle her elbow. Barbara is not the only Rantburger so employed, and of course there are those who are practicing their craft in our Armed Forces; they tend not to post in the midst of battles and such, I think. Politer just to interact with those who make their presence known here, and assume those who don't have a really good reason not to at the moment, which they'll share later if they can.
March 1, 2005: Cuba, despite it's failing economy, and the general impoverishment of its population, spends a lot of money on some things. Stuff like training doctors, genetic research and building torpedoes. This last one is kept pretty secret, but something along those lines is going on at the Cabanes Naval Base.
What kind of torpedo? Modern torpedoes, like the American Mk 48, are not only very complex, but require extensive industrial infrastructure to build. But what if Cuba simply modified old Soviet torpedoes, like those it received with its Soviet torpedo craft, or bought on the black market. Let's say they built a truck mounted launcher, and fitted the torpedo with a wake homing guidance system for the warhead. Adding more range, plus the wake homing capability, produces the a weapon with the ability to do some terrorism via torpedo. At night, how's the passing ship even going to detect the wake homer, unless someone in the warships offshore are paying close attention to their passive sonar. The U.S. Navy has equipped ships to defend against cruise missiles, but never came up with anything as effective against wake homing torpedoes.
These weapons, first developed by the Germans during World War II, were further refined by the Russians until the present. As their name implies, the torpedo homes on its target by detecting the wave motions made by a ships wake. The Cuban's could add length (and more fuel) to a conventional torpedo, giving it a range of 50-100 kilometers. Launching instructions would direct the crew to estimate the speed of passing ships, use an off the shelf GPS device to calculate coordinates the torpedo should head for in order to pick up a wake, enter that data into the torpedo, then launch the torpedo (from a container rolled off a truck that was backed into the surf) and drive away. Within an hour, a passing ship takes a torpedo in the stern. This would badly damage a carrier, or sink smaller ships. The Cubans are probably not including an serial numbers for components going into their torpedoes.
This seems to be mostly speculation on Strategy Page's part. Still, something to keep an eye on.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/02/2005 9:32:08 AM ||
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Cuba, despite itâs failing economy, and the general impoverishment of its population,
But I thought this was the Worker's ParadiseTM? Oliver Stone said so!
#3
the fins for the torpedo came off a '50s Cadillac
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 14:38 Comments ||
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Steve,
My concern here is that StrategyPage's speculation has a habit of being more accurate than some experts' facts. A wake homer is WWII technology and easily within the Cubans' grasp - now I want to know why they are refining a weapon that can whack ships in US waters from their own shores.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
03/02/2005 19:28 Comments ||
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cuz they're nervous and their "navy" wouldn't last til the second pot of coffee on morning shift was finished
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 19:39 Comments ||
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The USN can easily deal with wake homing tech -I believe the Cubans are keeping in line with the Russkies and Chicoms in dev hi-tech hybrid weapons, espec as per anti-GMD/AEGIS. GMD and US Battlespace-MilTech Dominance > America's enemies must place more empahsis on RR/RD Airborne Forces, SpecOps, fast Air- and Sea-lift, and STRATEGIC-ASYMMETRIC SUBMARINE WARFARE, Since Russia or China are not in the habit of selling weapons to anyone that is superior to their own, I believe we are likely seeing Cuba's attempt to convert torpedoes into anti-GMD/AEGIS LR, underwater CM's that will "pop-up" only when near its target. The generic/basic torpedo is, after all, an underwater "dumb" missle, and Cuba is close enough to Florida, et al to preclude any real need of boomer or tac subs.
#7
The Commies know it - GMD means THEY AND THEIR NUKE BULLY STICK ARE DEAD, FINIS, NADA, GONERS! The only thing they have to show for decades of Socialism, Communism, and feel-good PC is SOLYENT GREEN or Near-SOLYENT GREEN!
Venezuela's investigative police arrested fugitive labor leader Carlos Ortega in the early hours of Tuesday morning. A prominent leader of Venezuela's opposition to President Hugo Chävez, Ortega has been wanted by the Venezuelan police since 2003 on charges of treason and civil rebellion. After a warrant was issued for his arrest in February, 2003, Ortega entered the Costa Rican embassy, seeking political asylum. His asylum was revoked by the Costa Rican government one year later after Ortega repeatedly violated the conditions of his asylum by publicly calling for the overthrow of the Venezuelan government. Ortega frequently addressed anti-Chävez and anti-Castro rallies in Miami, Florida.
From December 2002 to February, 2003 the CTV and the country's principal employer association Fedecamaras called a general strike in an effort to force Chavez to resign from office. The strike lasted two months and its main feature was a general shutdown and sabotage of Venezuela's lifeblood oil industry. While workers loyal to Ortega's CTV refused to go to work, many who did not support the politically motivated general strike were locked out by employers who closed their doors for the duration of the strike. Many cases of sabotage were reported in the oil industry. Refinery computers were destroyed, passcodes were stolen and valves were sabotaged. Venezuela's economy shrunk by 9% in 2003 as a result of the shutdown and unemployment jumped from 15% to 22%, as hundreds of thousands lost their jobs. The country lost an estimated 14 billion dollars. According to some oil industry analysts, Venezuela's levels of oil production have still not returned to pre-shutdown levels. Current government figures put output at 3.1 million barrels per day, which is the pre-shutdown level, but analysts critical of the Chavez government suggest the real number is as low as 2.6 million bpd.
Ortega was sought by police on charges of treason, civil rebellion, and instigation to commit crimes, among other charges, in connection with the general strike/lock-out. Carmona and Ortega had previously joined forces in April 2002, participating in a military coup that briefly ousted Chävez, though he was later restored to power by popular support and loyal elements of the military. Carmona is widely rumoured to be living in neighboring Colombia, though he is wanted by Venezuelan police in connection with the coup.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Seafarious ||
03/02/2005 1:14:33 AM ||
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I hope people here realize that www.venezuelanalysis.com is a government website.
"From December 2002 to February, 2003 the CTV and the countryâs principal employer association Fedecamaras called a general strike in an effort to force Chavez to resign from office. The strike lasted two months and its main feature was a general shutdown and sabotage of Venezuelaâs lifeblood oil industry. While workers loyal to Ortegaâs CTV refused to go to work, many who did not support the politically motivated general strike were locked out by employers who closed their doors for the duration of the strike. Many cases of sabotage were reported in the oil industry. Refinery computers were destroyed, passcodes were stolen and valves were sabotaged. Venezuela's economy shrunk by 9% in 2003 as a result of the shutdown and unemployment jumped from 15% to 22%, as hundreds of thousands lost their jobs. The country lost an estimated 14 billion dollars."
Bullshit! Find a case where sabotage was proven. Venezuela's economy shrinkage was due more to Chavez's idiotic economic policies (price control, currency exchange controls, methodical destruction of the private industry, reckless spenditure on social programs that go nowhere, increase on subsidies, etc, etc) than to the strike. The rise in umemployement was due to his decision to fire 17,000 oil workers, some of them with 20 years of experience. They are now working in Canada, Saudi Arabia and other places.
Colombian President Alvaro Uribe signed the final order Tuesday to extradite one of the Cali drug cartel's founders to the United States, the president's spokesman said. The extradition order for Rodriguez Orejuela came less than three months after his brother, Gilberto, was flown to Miami, becoming the most powerful Colombian trafficker ever sent to face U.S. justice. The two founded the Cali cartel, which officials say imported tons of cocaine into the United States — concealed in everything from hollow lumber and concrete fence posts to chlorine cylinders, frozen broccoli and okra. Uribe's spokesman Ricardo Galan told The Associated Press that Rodriguez Orejuela, credited with being a genius at concealing drug shipments, has five days to appeal the president's decision.
The U.S. government indicted the brothers in 2003 on charges they continued to run the billion-dollar drug operation from behind bars even though they were imprisoned for nearly a decade. Colombia's extradition law with Washington does not allow for prosecution of crimes before the treaty was renewed in 1997, although the cartel was active beginning in 1990.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 00:00:00 ||
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The latest move by the Kremlin to shore up its rule comes after claims that it has been using infiltrators to stir trouble at anti-government rallies, giving the police an excuse to disperse them. In the eyes of many, the tactics are more reminiscent of the Hitler Youth of pre-war Germany than of the supposed democracy in Russia whose health Mr Putin indignantly defended when he met President George W Bush last week.
Andrei Pointkowsky, director of the Centre for Strategic Studies, said: "Putin is behind this. Scared by the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, the Kremlin is trying to form a Putin Jugend to suppress future opposition. Putin has had a catastrophic loss of authority. People are finally beginning to realise that the emperor has no clothes." Ignore the main line of the article-- about Putin's setting up a "youth group" of brownshirt-style thugs-- and focus on the subtext: Putin's headed for a fall. I predict that he will either be overthrown by his FSB handlers or else forced out by mass protests before the end of 2006. Note also that any sharp fall in oil prices would bring him down faster than Kuchma.
Posted by: thibaud (aka lex) ||
03/02/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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I was talking with two Russian fellows last night at the bar. They detested Putin. I asked them, "who's better?" They had no answer and just shrugged.
#2
putin as preident of russia [along with his fellow chetniks] is like having bernie kerik[and some police plaza irish slicksters] as president--street smart police apparatchnik without the gravitas or "vision thing"--he's in way over his head
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
03/02/2005 2:27 Comments ||
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#8
Geeze, Frank! It's SALINE, not SALTINE! There are alot of people around here that would try it because they read it........LOL!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/02/2005 11:32 Comments ||
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#9
I've got jam on my eyelids now...
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 13:10 Comments ||
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#10
This article and some of the comments are consistent with a hypothesis I formulated at the time of Bush's meeting with Putin. That Putin, in fact, is responding mainly to domestic pressures, and that whoever might replace him is even worse, both for Russia and for U.S. interests. That is, Bush was trying to prop him up!
Posted by: Curt Simon ||
03/02/2005 13:29 Comments ||
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China's ambassador to the United Nations last week called for international controls on the Internet.
Chinese Ambassador Sha Zukang told a UN conference that controls should be multilateral, transparent and democratic, with the full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil society and international organizations. just like China?
"It should ensure an equitable distribution of resources, facilitate access for all and ensure a stable and secure functioning," he said at the conference on Internet governance.
Sha said China opposes the "monopolization" of the Internet by one state, a reference to the Untied States, which ultimately controls the digital medium.
"It is of crucial importance to conduct research on establishing a multilateral governance mechanism that is more rational and just and more conducive to the Internet development in a direction of stable, secure and responsible functioning and more conducive to the continuous technological innovation," he said. Now why would they be so fearful?
China's communist government fears the Internet would dilute Beijing's control over its population, as information passes unfiltered throughout the country and outside of strict government censorship. China strictly prohibits any public criticism of the ruling communist party and closely monitors and censors Internet usage. Periodically, Chinese security forces raid Internet cafes and arrest people who violate Chinese rules. BINGO!
Sha said China has 94 million Internet users out of a worldwide total of about 810 million. Free flow of information and economic power will be the downfall of China and other despots
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 3:09:03 PM ||
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Start you own.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
03/02/2005 16:31 Comments ||
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#2
US demands China lift one party monopoly in China...
and if you guys think we are giving up the golden goose to be killed by the UN, think again @ss wipe...
#3
They don't like the current rules that don't allow them to censor content in another nation. The don't like the ability of other nations to ignore their requests for censorship. There are a host of other nation who feel the same way. The UN we be happy to oblige them. So of course they are all for a UN run Internet A wild and woolly Internet suits me just fine. The kind of ârulesâ we could expect under the UN would preclude sites like Rantburg I am sure.
Sorry we invented the creation that allowed the Internet to develop. For now we will dominate the "rules." The UN as usual can FOAD.
#4
Article: "It should ensure an equitable distribution of resources, facilitate access for all and ensure a stable and secure functioning," he said at the conference on Internet governance.
The guy's saying that China should get a piece of the action even though Uncle Sam pays most of the bills. I understand why he might want this, but it's not clear why Uncle Sam should hand over the keys to the kingdom. In other words, him and what army?
#5
AlGore will be heart broken when he learns what his Chinese buddies are proposing for HIS invention. If it's the "digital medium" that concerns the Chi-coms, then maybe they can hire bribe Algore to invent a network based on analog technology. One with lotsa controls and little functionality. ;)
#6
What a load of commie crap. more conducive to the continuous technological innovation
LOL! Like the internet isn't innovative enough. What have the Chinese contributed?
#9
Darn, I haven't noticed this has been posted already! Had a busy day, so I did not have time to go through all the posts... It's in the queue, Fred. If the commentary does not seem worth posting, you can bit-bucket it mercilessly.
#10
Mrs. D: The Chinese continue to try and start or invent their own right across the technology spectrum. But they end up hopelessly behind the curve almost immediately. There are three forces you never want to bet against in global technology: ethernet, TCP/IP and American sales and marketing--all of which are an outcome of free markets.
Embattled Hong Kong Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, whose unpopular leadership spawned the city's biggest pro-democracy movement in history, has resigned for personal reasons, local newspapers reported on Wednesday. When asked to confirm if he had stepped down, a government spokesman said: "We don't comment on speculative reports" and Tung only said good morning to reporters and ignored their questions when he arrived at his office earlier in the day. Citing unidentified sources, most reports said Tung's right hand man, Chief Secretary Donald Tsang, would be made acting chief executive after Tung's departure, But some questioned whether the career civil servant's close ties to Hong Kong's former British colonial government could taint his chances of keeping the post longer term.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 00:00:00 ||
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"But they were, all of them, deceived, for another Constitution was made. In the land of Belgium, in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Prodi forged in secret a master Constitution, to control all others. And into this Constitution he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. "One Constitution to rule them all." One by one, the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Constitution. But there were some who resisted. A Last Alliance of men marched against the armies of the Belgian Bureaucrats and on the slopes of Mount Doom, they fought for the freedom of Middle Earth. Victory was near. But the power of the Constitution could not be undone."
Rgds,
*Frodo Baggins Hoog*
"One Constitution for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Belgium where the Shadows lie.
One Constitution to rule them all, One Constitution to find them,
One Constitution to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Belgium where the Shadows lie"
#3
Aris: I said nothing... Just quoted a trader in the UK. That site it is on is a spinoff from FT.com's old uncensored forums. Another feature at that site is an online chess match.
BRITAIN'S days as an independent country will soon be over, Spain's foreign minister boasted yesterday.
Miguel Angel Moratinos said it is only a matter of time before we are swallowed up by a new European superstate.
And he admitted that the EU Constitution will be a death warrant for sovereignty of the 25 member states.
Mr Moratinos declared: "We are witnessing the last remnants of national politics."
And asked if the treaty would strip parliaments like Westminster of the right to set their own laws he replied: "Absolutely."
He said they had already signed away power to run their own economy, legal system and human rights rules.
The next step will be to form a Europe-wide foreign policy and merge the armed forces into a single EU army.
Mr Moratinos said the constitution would lead to "a surrender of member states' sovereignty".
He told an EU think-tank that patriotism will be swept away as we all become Europeans.
The minister added: "The member states have already relinquished control of justice, liberty and security.
"Now the difficult part is approaching — the giving up of sovereignty in the dual arenas of foreign affairs and defence.
"The concept of traditional citizenship has been bypassed in the 21st century."
Mr Moratinos's outburst casts fresh doubt on Tony Blair's assurances that Britain will remain a sovereign state.
It comes just days after Germany's foreign minister confirmed the constitution will be the "birth certificate" for a United States of Europe.
Shadow Foreign Secretary Michael Ancram said last night: "Yet again a senior European politician has dared to tell the truth about the constitution, a truth Mr Blair is anxious to hide."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/02/2005 1:00:45 AM ||
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#1
Does this mean that the EU can sell off the Crown Jewels to pay down the debt?
...The case arose after Belgian import company Van Parys complained to Belgium's highest court after it was denied licenses in 1998 and 1999 to import a certain quantity of bananas from Ecuador. The refusal was based on EU import quotas and the Belgian court passed it on the ECJ.
Van Parys argued that the EU rules broke international trade regulations, the WTO having ruled in 1997 that the EU contravened world trading rules through its system of tariffs and quotas that protected European, African and Caribbean banana producers against competition from US companies exporting from Latin America.
However, the ECJ held that a WTO ruling does not override European law. "WTO agreements are not in principle among the rules which the Court must take into account when reviewing the legality of measures," the judges declared.
Crucially, the Court said any judicial ruling would trample on the rights of EU institutions â and we mustn't do that, must we. Thus, the only time WTO decisions can be considered is when the EU has already modified its own rules in order to abide by the trade body's rulings....
It ensures that WTO negotiations are at a European level and not a bilateral level which is logical. Only signatories to international agreements are bound to enforce them, and the United States has quite a list of rulings it has chosen to ignore or failed to implement. The WTO is not a representative body in any sense and is hardly one regarded with any popular support.
#4
Knowing The Sun, wanna bet that this minister probably never mentioned the United Kingdom once in the interview, let alone "gloated over its demise"?
#6
C'mon Aris. That's a pathetic argument as it does not exclude the UK, but rather throws it in with the rest of the EU membership. Try again.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
03/02/2005 2:30 Comments ||
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#7
That's a pathetic argument as it does not exclude the UK, but rather throws it in with the rest of the EU membership
So you don't see any difference at all between "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of the United Kingdom", and "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of nation-states"?
I wonder -- can you see any difference between "I am happy over the demise of city-states" and "I am happy over the demise of Athens"?
Or for that matter any difference between "I am happy over the demise of monarchy" and "I am happy over the demise of Queen Elizabeth II"?
Silly me, when I read an article about someone gloating over the demise of a certain specific country, I expect him to atleast have mentioned that country, not made general comments about the evolution of politics and the role (or lack thereof) of nations.
A pathetic argument? If you are willing to eat the crap that The Sun's feeding you -- worse that Baghdad Bob, worse than Pravda -- be my guest. But I will keep on disputing their lies and twisted propaganda.
#12
But you can prove me wrong, Bulldog. Just find me Moratino's quote where he supposedly boasts that "BRITAINâS days as an independent country will soon be over"
The first sentence in the article, and I'd bet my computer it's a shameless lie and that Moratino never even mentioned Britain.
#13
You find a transcript, you lazy scumbag. I've got work to do. Besides, isn't it obvious that Moratinos doesn't have to have mentioned Britain, explicitly, for that sentence to be accurate once you consider that the UK is one of those nation states which will be affected by the "surrender of member statesâ sovereignty"?
#14
I think a United States of Europe is not a bad idea in the long run. People, like Aris, seem to want it very badly. But sadly, they are willing to set up a monster that doesn't provide adequate representation, just to get it done.
Aris - I hope you get paid to come in here and cheerlead. Otherwise, rather than convincing a bunch of Americans - who really don't care if you bow before Brussels - you should be demanding that your rights are protected.
You are like the Palestinians - cheerleading for your leaders rather than holding them accountable to you. Rather than convincing me that you aren't getting taxation without representation - you should be convincing yourself....cause we don't really give a darn.
#15
Well now,Aris.It does not take a flash of brilliance to see that he meant all of Euorpe.I find it hard to believe you are so much in favor of giving up your freedom in favor of the EU super state.Awhile back I ask several questions about voteing rights in the EU and the answers I got boiled down to"ain't got none".2b said it better.
#16
I don't like the thought of bein mixed up with those hairy greek arse bandits. The EU constitution referendum hasn't a snowball in hell's chance of succeeding in Britain. Look at some of the lunatic decisions we've had to accept via the Euro Court of Human Rights - hardly confidence inspiring. The Sun may be a piss-poor newspaper but it does accurately reflect the mood of the country in this regard.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/02/2005 8:16 Comments ||
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#17
as in all attempts to conquer - the British stand and fight.
Which would have been a much easier job, if the Sun had enough professionalism to mention *where* Moratino ever said such a thing and to whom. But ofcourse that would have made debunking its lies quite easier.
I have wasted time to debunk Sun lies a dozen times over. I don't plan to do it all over again every time an idiot claims Sun to be trustworthy again. I'm not getting paid for this either.
It's you who insulted me, Bulldog, it's not me who insulted you. It's you who called me a "scumbag" just because I don't accept the words of what is quite possibly the most lying so-called "newspaper" that has ever existed in the face of the world -- and now it's *you* who don't dare put your money where your mouth is.
Besides, isn't it obvious that Moratinos doesn't have to have mentioned Britain
Yes, it's quite obvious, "scumbag", that you don't give a damn about Ministry-of-Truth perversion of facts by adding interpretation and opinion in there without marking them as such. The fact that the article clearly implies something false-as-hell (a Spanish minister gloating over the demise of Britain) doesn't mean a damn to you.
Geez, "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of France" wouldn't have had the same propagandistic feel to it, would it? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Germany"? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Malta"? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Spain"?
Why aren't *those* titles chosen for the head of the article? Geez, is it because they don't manipulate europhobia as efficiently?
After all the ends justify the means according to you, and so what are a dozen little lies, in order to support what to you is the greater Truth of the eeeeeevilness of the EU.
You, Bulldog, are indeed Minitru come to life. And you may definitely consider that an insult, scumbag.
And any of the rest of you -- if you don't care either whether Spanish minister actually mentioned Britain in discussing the accuracy of an article whose first sentence is "Britain's days as an independent country will soon be over, Spainâs foreign minister boasted yesterday.", then you are also contemptible tools of Minitru, who don't give a damn about factual truth when you are serving the Greater Truths of your private ideologies.
I don't like the thought of bein mixed up with those hairy greek arse bandits. [...]Look at some of the lunatic decisions we've had to accept via the Euro Court of Human Rights
Do you know that the European Court of Human Rights isn't actually connected to the EU, right, "hairy" Brit "arse bandit"?
The EU constitution referendum hasn't a snowball in hell's chance of succeeding in Britain.
And because UK loves being the little dishonest and whining saboteur, there's likewise a snowball's chance in hell of UK withdrawing from the EU.
FUCKING LEAVE THE EU ALREADY AND STOP OBSTRUCTING THE OTHER NATIONS.
#21
as in all attempts to conquer - the British stand and fight.
Yes, any one of those days the Brits (with the help of the always trustworthy The Sun) are gonna revise away the fact that it's they who applied to the European Communities for membership. They are also gonna revise away the fact, that it's the European Communities that first turned them away (French objections), and then they had to reapply a decade later.
The new "truth" (more accurately known as "lie") will be that the evil continentals tried to conquer Britain and in decade-long struggles the British people kept on bravely fighting against the tyrannical overlordship of the continental bureaucrats.
Above all else the questions that must never been asked are "Why don't the Brits just ask to leave then? Who is stopping them?"
#25
Go ahead and enjoy your new found European-ness - don't expect the Brits or Americans to come running when it f*cks up. The Euro Court may or may not be part of the EU - but it's certainly representative of the usual bullshit from the continent. Your screed included, Aris.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/02/2005 10:22 Comments ||
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#26
I see. I'm no longer even allowed to make a joking comment on a thread in which Aris the Great has spewed.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 10:24 Comments ||
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#27
Obviously this is a hot button for our Euro friends. So, speaking as a neutral observer....
1) Aris, when Osama says kill all the infidels I'm included even though he didn't mention me by name. Also, since the Sun is a British paper it would be silly for them to use France or Germany or Poland as their example.
BUT.....
2) Bulldog, PeterUK, etc. Aris seems to have a point in requesting another cite for this quote. While I would not be surprised if Moratino believes this, I am surprised if he actually said it. So, are there some better sources available for this quote?
3) If the EU does become a one foreign policy area (aka sovereign state) I assume that you will be either a) removing all the ex-countries from the UN to be replaced by one representative, or 2) telling the US that we now get 50 seats. So, which is it?
#30
Aris, while it's possible that The Sun shamelessly misquoted Mr. Moratinos (see, e.g., the New York Times), the statement about Britain losing its independence is right there in the very first sentence. If he's been misquoted, there should be a correction issued by the Spanish Foreign Ministry. While their website is in Spanish, their press releases so far don't include a protest or correction.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/02/2005 10:35 Comments ||
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1) Well one big difference with your Osama analogy is that Moratino is not speaking about something that will happen to other nations only, to "infidels". He's including his own nation in this.
So what seems to me to have been a quite clear statement about his desires and hopes over voluntary European unity (his own nation included!) is transformed by Sun into the evil aggression and hostility and desire of conquest of Spaniards and EU folk supposedly hold against the British nation specifically.
If someone says "I hate all people", that's quite different to him saying "I hate black people" or "I hate Jewish people". And it's a lie-by-false-implication if one intentionally tries to present it as such.
Likewise if someone says e.g. "I am happy that European nations will be joined in a single political entity" and this is lyingly translated to "I am glad that UK will be destroyed as an independent nation"
3) Since we are far away from such an eventuality (I doubt it'll happen the next 20 years), it's too soon to even hypothesize what will be the case.
But here's a comment: if the EU got a veto in the UN, it'll be largely irrelevant whether it's counted as 1 or as 40 countries. So it'd probably accept to be counted as one.
In the Council of Europe, the situation is a bit different. Since each country sends a single judge to the European Court of Human Rights, and the EU member-states outnumber the non-EU European countries, I'm sure that each nation would keep on sending individual judges instead of the whole of the EU just sending one, which would vastly change the balance of power in favour of non-EU countries.
Assuming that is, that the C of E will still keep on existing independently and not have fully merged into the EU by that time, at which time the question becomes meaningless.
Exactly as I predicted -- no mention at all of United Kingdom at all. Read the interview, people!
And then, Bulldog, let's see if you are shameless enough to claim that the Sun was still not lying.
Steve White, the thing is that the first sentence doesn't actually contain quotes, so they can always claim (just as Bulldog essentially did) that it's their interpretation of Moratino's words, and that they never claimed he actually said them.
That's why I'm calling them shameless.
And asked if the treaty would strip parliaments like Westminster of the right to set their own laws he replied: âAbsolutely.â
Ofcourse if you read the actual question, it was this instead: "Does accepting the European Constitution mean a surrender of member states' sovereignty?"
To which he responded "Absolutely".
As always you can trust the Sun to be quite accurate about the words they place *within* quotes, but shamelessly shamelessly lie about all the words outside the actual quotation.
#34
Damn. I must be a psychic. I claimed that Sun lied based on my understanding of the Sun alone, I claimed that Moratino never mentioned the United Kingdom based on my understanding of the Sun alone... I'd not even read the original interview in the first place... and yet I was 100% correct.
#35
Before you sprain your arm, think about what "a surrender of member states' sovereignty" means.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 11:16 Comments ||
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#36
i must say, AK is right on this particular quibble. "I hate religion" is not the same as, say, "I hate Islam" or "I hate the United Methodist Church". The Suns headline writer was twisting for an ideoligical point. OTOH, AFAICT, the Guardian and the Independent do more or less the same thing - this is just a Fleet Street thing - though we have some of it here as well, though not quite as blatantly.
Its still a big deal, that a senior pol is saying sovereignty is on the way out - perhaps not so much on the continent, but certainly in UK. This kind of thing dont help Tony - but then Spanish lefty pols probably dont have much love for Tony anyway. This thing about Iraq .....
#37
good strawman Aris! I'm impressed. You managed to deflect from the material fact that a senior pol said sovereignty is out and make this a quibble about the presentation of that fact.
Unfortunately I think that you are engaging is Sophistry here.
When the NHL cancelled the season, they did not say that the Boston Bruins season was cancelled. However, the headline in the local paper was Bruin's season cancelled! Was this wrong? Of course not it was a specific example of the general case. If Moritano says that ALL member states on accepting the constitution will lose their sovereignty that means that the UK will lose its soverignty, period, full-stop, end of discussion.
To then state that Moritano says the UK will lose its sovereignty is a factual statement, ie NOT a lie.
Liberalhawk, recast your analogy as "I hate all religions!" and see if it then must logically follow that you hate Islam (or Christianity, or Hinduism, or....). I think that it does.
#41
What a load. Would one of those who claims The Sun has misquoted Moratinos please point out the quote or quotes in The Sun's article which are attributed to Moratinos, which are wrong? You know how to recognise a quote? It's in "quotation marks".
A quote must be wrong. I'm not talking about what is the paper's interpretation of his remarks. And if you have quibbles with the interpretation, please tell the rest of us precisely which parts of the interpretation are logically incorrect.
#42
2b> Truth vs lies aren't "quibbles about presentation", 2b. You are merely a liar.
And the statement about surrender of sovereignty would have been quite a bit more shocking if the European Union wasn't all about the mutual surrender of sovereignty in various policy areas since the very beginning of its conception.
Here's what he said: "Does accepting the European Constitution mean a surrender of member states' sovereignty? Absolutely. The member states have already relinquished control of certain economic and social competences [policy areas], including justice, liberty and security."
Ooh, shocking, that Moratino told us something everyone knew already.
But the Sun and its illiterate-or-dishonest fans want to present the EU Constitution as a dramatic change instead of a step in the process that's been openly been taking place for a very long time now.
So a mere further mutual "surrender of sovereignty" becomes "a death warrant of the sovereignty". And the Constitution now supposedly "strips parliaments like Westminster of the right to set their own laws"
Not unless such right has been stripped already, you lying sons of bitches.
The evolving process, versus the catastrophic change. The truth versus the lie. Saying that something already *is* versus saying that Constitution will alter it dramatically. Is this another quibble, 2b?
Robert and anon, you've lost the fucking argument, the lies of the Sun have been exposed. The Sun doesn't have a right to translate questions or answers without indicating it's so translating them. The Sun doesn't have the moral right to say that Moratino was asked whether the EU Constitution would strip national parliaments of the right to make their own laws, when he simply was NEVER ASKED SUCH A QUESTION.
How long will you keep on shamelessly defending Sun's shameless lies, dragging you both down the same murk. Moratino was NEVER ASKED SUCH A QUESTION.
#44
Bulldog> Only Steve White used the word "misquote". I used the word "lie" instead. As i mentioned in #33, that's the exact argument about quotation marks that the Sun (and its avid fans like you) use. No quotation marks means an utter lack of responsibility about the truth-value of a sentence.
If I said that you admitted you worship Hitler, I'd not be misquoting you either. I'd simply be lying. And so is Sun lying.
"BRITAINâS days as an independent country will soon be over, Spainâs foreign minister boasted yesterday."
Did he indeed boast that, Bulldog, yes or no?
AlanC> If Moritano says that ALL member states on accepting the constitution will lose their sovereignty that means that the UK will lose its soverignty, period, full-stop, end of discussion.
You know, I'm tired of debating the simple truth or lie of a matter, when the facts are plain. Moratino never boasted about UK soon ceasing to be an independent nation. Moratino never described the Constitution as a death-warrant of sovereignty, he described it as a step in a process, he said that sovereignty has already been surrendered in many areas. Moratino never said that the Constitution will strip national parliaments of the right to make their own laws. Moratino never mentioned the UK at all. Moratino said that if the EU constitution fails to be ratified by everyone, "another method of integration will have to be found".
If the Sun simply mentioned where the interview was given (the words Cafe Babel were enough for me to google up the interview), its readers would have been able to check up on the facts on their own.
But facts have to first pass through the Sun filter of blatant lies before they can be trusted to be read by the UK public, it seems. You can read the quoted answers, but the unquoted questions are distorted beyond recognition. Opinion is stated as fact, and interpretation as reality.
Viva the ministry of truth and its chief agent in Rantburg, Bulldog.
Posted by: Bobby ||
03/02/2005 12:23 Comments ||
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#46
"...murk..."? How quaint. Oh pshaw! Y'all surely recognize that the only people headed down the murk are the European people, except perhaps for the King of the Belgians, the E.U. bureaucrats, and certain Greek bureaucrat-wannabes.
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 12:23 Comments ||
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#47
Why would anyone want Aris' goat? Let's not go there.
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 12:24 Comments ||
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#48
To "get my goat" only before the actual source of the interview was discovered. Once the link to the actual was found, they're only getting my gloat instead. :-)
*gloat*gloat*gloat*
I'm bookmarking this thread for whenever I need an example of Sun lies and ridiculous justifications thereof, including the "if it's not in a quote it can't be a lie, and newspapers need never distinguish clearly between facts and interpretations"-type of defense.
#49
Liberalhawk, recast your analogy as "I hate all religions!" and see if it then must logically follow that you hate Islam (or Christianity, or Hinduism, or....). I think that it does.
Ok, so lets say Christopher Hitchens says "i hate all religions" (which i rather suspect he does) Lets say the New York Times headlines "Prominent war on terrorism supporter says he hates Islam" - would that be a fair headline? I dont think so.
#51
When the NHL cancelled the season, they did not say that the Boston Bruins season was cancelled. However, the headline in the local paper was Bruin's season cancelled! Was this wrong?
If they said that "NHL cancels Bruins season" that would be profoundly misleading, I think.
How about this one "Bush cuts taxes for wealthy Jews" = well he did, didnt he?
#52
You know, in one sense this thread reminds me of some of the abortion debates. One side uses obfuscation and euphemism to try and soften the impact, the other side wants to point out all the gory details to harshen the impact.
Neither side is debating that what actually happens, happens, just the strength and clarity of the adjectives.
#53
Aris, did I defend the Sun? Or did I ask you to contemplate on the meaning of "surrender of member states' sovereignty"?
If you think I was defending the Sun, you're doing EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 12:52 Comments ||
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#54
alan c - of course its misleading, cause it implies that Hitch singled out Christian Science, which he didnt. Also the CSM covers news about all religions, just as the Sun covers news about all Euro nations (though it would still be misleading even if they didnt.)
#55
It is good that the truth of the destruction of English freedom via the bureaufascism of the EU is coming out now, after being denied for the last 8 years by the Blairites.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
03/02/2005 12:57 Comments ||
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#56
Neither side is debating that what actually happens, happens, just the strength and clarity of the adjectives.
thats true. Somebody posted the Sun Headline, AK as a good debater skipped the substance and attacked the headline. Instead of refocusing on the substance, a bunch of people chose to defend the Sun, thus letting AK off the hook on substance.
You will notice that in my first post on this, i tried to refocus on substance.
#57
AlanC, here's a different analogy. E.g. George Bush says "I don't trust people easily", and a minority rights monitor/whatever translates that as "George Bush says he doesn't trust African-Americans easily".
AlanC, Moratino talked about European integration and boasted about the European project as a whole. He never mentioned or gave a hint that he was interested in any one particular country at all, with the exception of his own. Sun presented it as if he cared enough to not only mention UK specifically but to actually boast over its demise. A person that doesn't have the original interview has no way of knowing which parts are facts and which are interpretations.
For all we know Moratino may be just as happy with the United Kingdom outside the EU, just as I would be, he probably wants countries to join only voluntarily and with the full consent of their people.
But The Sun misleads the reader to feel hostility for this evil continental that is boasting over the demise of their country, whether they themselves want it or not.
That's a lie. It's not just a misinterpretation, because they never present it as *their* interpretation of his words, they present them as if he actually did the thing they describe to him. When you present an interpretation as a fact, that's a lie, regardless of whether you believe your interpretation to be correct.
And that leaves aside all the *rest* of their lies and misrepresentations about the specific questioning.
Do you believe in the possible virtue of a two-speed Europe?
I think that the process of ratification is not going to fail. But of course, if it isn't ratified, another method of integration will have to be found.
Hmmm... I wonder what "other method of integration" he might be thinking of?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/02/2005 13:05 Comments ||
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#60
It Is good that the truth of the destruction of English freedom via the bureaufascism of the EU is coming out now...
Yes Ernest B., it is, but what happens if the UK votes "NO" on the constitution? The French have no balls, but the Spaniards might (from the sound of the article) get the Germans to get together and physically threaten the UK....
Remember Hitler and Franco were buddies...
We in the US have problems too...
Our Supreme Court, a nine member politbureau, has determined that we are subject to European Law, so I guess the next step is to apply for EU membership?
The politbureau can invalidate any law and is answerable to no one.
#61
For all we know Moratino may be just as happy with the United Kingdom outside the EU, just as I would be, he probably wants countries to join only voluntarily and with the full consent of their people.
As Dave D. pointed out, from the interview:
But of course, if it isn't ratified, another method of integration will have to be found.
I think it's safe to say Moratino has a flexible definition of "consent".
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 13:11 Comments ||
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#62
liberalhawk> Not having the original interview, I could only attack what seemed to me the most obvious of lies, the idea that Moratino would single out United Kingdom. I bet that Moratino never even mentioned it -- I was correct.
The rest of the lies in the article were attacked by me after I had the interview itself.
If anyone wants to discuss the substance of the interview itself (in the link I gave), as opposed to the Sun loose "interpretation" thereof, be my guest.
Dave D> probably the two-speed Europe (or three-speed, or four-speed) suggested in the question?
If only UK objects, hopefully the rest of the 24 nations will manage to proceed with a slightly modified Constitution that binds only them after only a few years delay. UK renegotiates its relationship with the EU, and the rest of us keep our fingers crossed it won't be *too* obstructionist in that process.
I don't have much hope for that. I think the UK will keep on obstructing for half a decade at the very least before it lets other EU nations do what they want with themselves.
#63
Did somebody get the fire extinguisher? All this talk aout nothing sure gets the thermometer jumping! I mean I've been to Europe and I still can't see what the excitement is all about.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 13:21 Comments ||
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#67
BigEd> but the Spaniards might (from the sound of the article) get the Germans to get together and physically threaten the UK....
The idea of Spain (or France) and Germany physically threatening another EU nation with military force is about as far removed from reality as saying that George W. Bush is a Vermontian Muslim with communist leanings in the pay of Osama Bin Laden.
People in Rantburg keep on claiming that I don't know squat about America, but it's comments like this that show how far removed from European reality some American people are.
You don't know diddly-squat about Europe, BigEd.
Robert> Given that the question itself suggested the two-speed Europe, I think we can be sure that forcing other nations was not firstmost in his mind.
And btw, in response to your comment #53, please stop bravely bravely running away and tell us what you actually think about the truthfulness of the Sun or lack thereof. Instead of making us guess about it.
#68
"The idea of Spain (or France) and Germany physically threatening another EU nation with military force is about as far removed from reality as saying that George W. Bush is a Vermontian Muslim with communist leanings in the pay of Osama Bin Laden."
Excellent point; Europeans have a long history of settling their disputes by dialog and compromise.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/02/2005 13:33 Comments ||
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#69
And btw, Robert, if I misinterpret your statements in comments in this thread, atleast everyone else visiting this thread can read your actual comments by themselves as well. And see how well I've "interpreted" them or not.
I wasn't a reporter reporting elsewhere on the words you spoke. It's extremely different to go somewhere else and making distorted representations of an interview, with readers not having a chance to figure out by themselves which is fact and which is fiction, since the Sun wasn't providing a link or a reference either.
Now the lies will be propagated and Europhobes will be claiming in a very short while "The Spanish foreign minister admitted that the European Constitution is a death-warrant for national sovereignty. Yes! "Death warrant"! That's the actual words he used. And he replied "absolutely" when asked whether the Constitution strips the right of national parliaments to make laws of themselves. And he openly gloated over the demise of the UK."
#70
Given that the question itself suggested the two-speed Europe, I think we can be sure that forcing other nations was not firstmost in his mind.
No doubt he simply intends to keep holding votes until he gets the result he wants. Or maybe he'll come up with a Third Way to get what he wants.
And btw, in response to your comment #53, please stop bravely bravely running away and tell us what you actually think about the truthfulness of the Sun or lack thereof. Instead of making us guess about it.
WTF? How am I "running away"? Why am I required to take a stand on what the Sun wrote? When did Rantburg become your personal pissing ground?
For what it's worth, the Sun read what they wanted to into what Moratinos said. They highlighted an aspect that made their point. Did they quote him exactly precisely? No -- and that's not right. They should have at least cited the source, and most properly should have given the full quote and made their argument from there.
Now, why did you go crazy in #42? Would you care to explain where I "shamelessly defend[ed] Sun's shameless lies"?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 13:42 Comments ||
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#71
FYI - I gave up Aris for Lent and I highly recommend it to y'all.
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/02/2005 13:44 Comments ||
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#72
Excellent point; Europeans have a long history of settling their disputes by dialog and compromise.
I'd return your sarcasm to you, but I'm too tired for that, so here's the unsarcastic version: Americans have a long history of enslaving the black population, centuries and centuries of it. How likely do you think it is for black slavery to happen again any time soon?
Foolish "long history" pseudo-argumentation is for the people who don't have a clue of present-day realities and attitudes.
No present-day EU nation is going to physically threaten another EU nation. In the continent itself such a thing is inconceivable.
#73
WTF? How am I "running away"? Why am I required to take a stand on what the Sun wrote?
Well, you kinda commented on the thread, so I thought you should have an opinion on the content thereof, other than to make snarky one-liner comments on my person.
Thanks that you've clarified your position, though.
Would you care to explain where I "shamelessly defend[ed] Sun's shameless lies"?
Well, when you waved aside my attack on said Sun lies as "strawmen" it definitely seemed like a defense of said lies. If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry.
#74
FYI - I gave up Aris for Lent and I highly recommend it to y'all.
Wise advice, but this was a case where it was SO easy to trap Aris in his own hypocrisy it was irresistible.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 13:51 Comments ||
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#75
Well, when you waved aside my attack on said Sun lies as "strawmen" it definitely seemed like a defense of said lies. If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry.
Comment #38 -- I said nothing about your "attack", but rather about your past experience with strawmen.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 13:54 Comments ||
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#76
Aris, I did not know why you remind me of Vizzini from Princess Bride flick.
Vizzini: Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong - that's what's so funny. I switched glasses when your back was turned. Ha-ha, you fool. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when *death* is on the line.". Hahahahahah.
[Vizzini falls over dead]
#81
Frank G, Don't let Easter be a reason to start again. Some bad habits are best kicked permanently.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
03/02/2005 14:23 Comments ||
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#82
So I am kinda new here, and thought I understood what a troll was - as recently as yesterday. So will someone please explain the difference between Aris and a troll?
Posted by: Bobby ||
03/02/2005 14:43 Comments ||
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#83
A troll is a supernatural creature (either a dwarf or a giant) that is supposed to live in caves or in the mountains.
http://chem.ps.uci.edu/~bjfinlay/Troll.JPG
Aris is an unnatural creature (a geek that never sleeps) that lives in a darkened room in Athens, Greece.
http://users.otenet.gr/~katsaris/misc/grad8-800.jpg
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 14:56 Comments ||
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#84
Jeebus...look what I missed out on. Mutually surrendered sovereignty? Sounds like voluntary dhimmitude to me. Bobby, if you want to see a troll...look up some postings by Murat. Tip: have a barf bag handy.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
03/02/2005 15:01 Comments ||
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#85
Good grief, I have to work for 2 hours and there's more than 40 replies.
To LH I will concede that the headline is misleading in the same way that most media headlines are misleading.
However, I have read nothing here or elsewhere that contradicts the contention that what Moratinos said was that adoption of the EU constitution meant the end of national sovereignty for whatever country adopted it, including the UK.
In a world where so much information is whizzing by it's easy to miss the local impact of some airy generalization pronounced by a politician until the real, specific meaning is revealed, shorn of all frills and diplomatic baggage.
The Sun seems to have provided a service to Brits that might not have been paying sufficient attention to the mumbles from Whitehall.
#87
What is the difference between a Troll born North of the Arctic Circle and a Troll born South of the Arctic Circle?
A Northen Troll says âGod Morgen.â
A Southern Troll says âGod Morgen, ya all.â
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 15:41 Comments ||
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#88
I fear brother Tom has fallen off the wagon, and evidently been savering up stuff.
Let's have an amen from the Choir!
Posted by: R Foxx ||
03/02/2005 16:45 Comments ||
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#89
I have sinned, brother Foxx. Like the Trojans before me, I have fallen prey to Greek deceit. As it says in Epeius I, Chapter 6, Verse 1, "Beware geeks bearing snits."
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 16:56 Comments ||
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#90
A troll lives in Norway and Sun is deadly to him. But after all between rainy days and short winter days it is entirely possible for Norvegian trolls to survive.
Aris is a mystery: the only known troll who lives in a sunny country. World's greatest scientists are investigating his case.
#91
Somebody posted the Sun Headline, AK as a good debater skipped the substance and attacked the headline.
I don't know what you mean there, Lh. The posted headline is not The Sun's own headline - which does not mention the UK at all.
Aris is not a 'good' debater. He's a dishonest, sophistic, unbalanced and evasive debater who, judging by the responses to him, enjoys little to no respect or sympathy in this forum. He does nothing to help his cause. Nothing about that is 'good' unless you think that the measure of successful debating is how much animosity you create.
#92
I've never been dishonest, and I've never evaded a single relevant question posed to me. Unlike you "Cleamp Angereling9543" I've never hidden cowardly attacks behind false names. I've also never launched personal attacks on people's appearances, I've never googled their names to find pieces of embarrasing information like Tom and Frank, I've never mocked their usage of language like Frank G and .com, and I've never bravely bravely ran away like other trolls like Crawford are still doing, cowardily saying that they never meant their little jabs.
When I jab at people, Crawford, I don't pretend innocence afterwards. You certainly don't have the courage of a real debate, but do try to have atleast the courage of your insults.
And Cleamp, it's not the headline that mentions the UK. It's the first sentence of the article. Same deal.
All of you have turned the thread into a bunch of ad hominem again, instead of admitting that the Sun shamelessly lied about what it claimed -- even after I proved it to you. Your waste gave me the time to watch the last third of the 3rd season of "24" and revealed your petty characters and the impotency of your argument in trying to defend the indefensible. My gain, your loss. Cheers. :-)
Go on being informed by "The Sun", which is still the most shamelessly lying newspaper I've ever encountered. Little ignorant and parochial idiots whose minds are 60 years out of date, enough so that they think Germany will be exerting military aggression against UK any time soon.
Just answer me this: How in the world's name did I guess that the UK was never even mentioned in the article? Was it because I knew the Sun for what it was, and none of you did?
#94
DOES THIS MEAN THAT EU WILL HAVE ONLY ONE SEAT IN THE U.N. AND IN THE SECURITY COUNSIL JUST LIKE U.S. OR THAT THE U.S. WILL HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL (STATES) MEMBERS???
#95
For the people who wondered what's the difference between a troll and me: 2b just answered it for you.
He's it.
Other examples of trolls here are Robert who wondered around threads calling me a "cunt", Frank and Tom who always posted immediately after I posted, not to answer or comment but just to write "ignore', and so forth and so forth.
#96
wondered> I have no clue whether EU will ever have only one seat in the UN or not. It's probably 20 years too early to start wondering about such a question.
#98
Aris, I haven't read the other 96 messages on this thread yet... I just wanted to know, since there seems to be an Argue With Aris thread, if you saw the message re: de Villepin's statements regarding Georgia.
Since you've expressed concern about possible Russian ambitions towards Georgia in the past, do you have any concerns now that France appears to be adopting the Russian position regarding problems in the Pankisi Gorge?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
03/02/2005 18:55 Comments ||
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#102
Yeah, you're a crap debater alright, Aris. A useless piece of shit with far too much time on his hands yet who still fails to make any impact whatsoever. The King of Ad Hominem and the laughing stock of the 'burg. I'll admit your ludicrously pompous drama-queenery was amusing for a long time but the joke's worn very thin.
"The Sun", which is still the most shamelessly lying newspaper I've ever encountered.
And you're the most shamelessly clueless twat I've ever encountered. Your total lack of intelligence is the reason you are unable to even comprehend the journalistic style of a British tabloid newspaper without getting your frilly knickers in a twist. If you don't 'get' it, why do you read it? Just look away, and save yourself a coronary. The subtleties of low end journalism are way over your head, and I for one wouldn't expect any less from a stereotypically humourless socialist tranzi bigot.
Cleamp-whatever was me. My Rantburg cookie went AWOL.
#104
Phil> "the message re: de Villepin's statements regarding Georgia"
No, I've not seen it yet. Will be right back at you after posting this.
Your total lack of intelligence is the reason you are unable to even comprehend the journalistic style of a British tabloid newspaper without getting your frilly knickers in a twist
Oooh, I don't understand the *subtleties* of a journalistic system that is dependent on lies and on mixing fact with blatant opinion without labeling which is which. Unfortunately for you, Bulldog, I understand such subtleties very well, that's why I was able to make a pretty good guess at the real content of the interview based on the mere scrap of real information provided in that tabloid shit you claim to call a newspaper.
A journalistic style that is dependent on blatant lies, is not a "journalistic style", it's something to use to wipe your arse with.
"The subtleties of low end journalism are way over your head,"
Then how was I able to figure out the truth out from that pack of lies? How was I able to guess the absense of any mention of the United Kingdom from the real interview, when Steve White thought that something that should have been denied by the Spanish government or whatever if it was false?
I understand the "subtleties" of such propaganda quite well. The difference between you and me is that I don't endorse it, nor do I find it deserving of the word "journalism", whether low-end or otherwise.
#105
Holy Kleenex, Batman, it was right under our nose, and we blew it!
First the Sun is a lie, then it's a lie because Britain isn't mentioned specificly, then it's a lie because the European nations need not give up their rights of representation, only Britain. OMG, WTF, I can't believe the clarity of it all completely avoided me!
#106
Two months to May... Shazaam!
http://www.jimcarreywebsite.com/jgomer.jpg
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 20:05 Comments ||
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#107
Asedwich, the article is a complete lie because there's not a single word outside quotes that refers to a real fact or to a real question. Real answers are coupled with utterly fake questions, and events take place that never happened.
Is that enough of a definition of a "lie" for you, Asedwich, or are you gonna doublethink your way out of it, by saying that since the Sun's a tabloid it doesn't need to be accurate about which questions were really asked and which statements were really made?
Blame the lies on the "journalistic style". I dare ya.
Phil> Yes, I do have concerns. I think that Chirac's government is playing a very dangerous game of Eurasian conciliation/appeasement. Disagreements between France and Russia over Lebanon (and other places) show us that it's not a complete alliance, but the Russophilic tendency in Chirac's government is definitely worrying.
#109
You haven't been at the 'burg long, shellback. The only thing that closes a case on the Greek is the clock running out at midnight.
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 20:30 Comments ||
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#110
Or no one responding to his BS.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
03/02/2005 20:32 Comments ||
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#111
That's never happened, Mrs. D, not even when Frank and I tried to get everyone to ignore him. He's been going for 18 hours now and is probably a self-sustaining reaction by this point anyway. At best he stays in one thread.
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 20:36 Comments ||
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#112
He's EUrofiliac. He's so besotted with the EU idea that once he can start gushing it, there's no end.
It is actually a defense mechanism. He knows, subconsciously, that many of concerns ranted on burg have merit, but his overdeveloped pride does not like bruising and he just jumps into the big river--De Nile.
#113
Hey Tom, I've been around long enough to know some people here like to gang up and accuse people of some mighty stupid s**t, as in Aris' case. I don't see him cheerleading for Europe at all. He's simply stating the Sun is full of garbage. We're not talking about the WSJ here, it's the damn Sun after all.
#114
that many of concerns ranted on burg have merit
Many concerns ranted on burg have merit.
But most of them do not.
Some of them have so little merit that I could post them as parody. "Germany and Spain will militarily force UK to remain in the EU" Insert laughtrack.
Those kinds of "claims" remind me of those folk insistent that a Jewish-Masonic global conspiracy is intent on destroying the Greek Orthodox Church because it's the only thing that stands on its way. So ludicrous that it's a bitter grief that there exist people so ignorant or so fanatical as to take them seriously.
And when I'm bitterly grieving at the ignorance of humanity, I make bitter angry remarks. Perhaps because I believe there's more in stake on the survival of the EU than the question of whether we'll have 40 or 1 seats on the UN table.
#115
"Some" people here like to gang up on Aris, shellback? Would that be:
Rex #6, FlameBait #8, Bulldog #9, 2b #14, Howard UK #16, you #19, Robert #23, anon #39, Bobby #45, Tom #46, badanov #86, JFM #90, 11A5S #103, Asedwich #105, Mrs. D #110, and Sobiesky #112.
Tally 'em up -- about 16 "some" people. Perhaps you should ponder what sort of mental illness drives Aris to do this for 18 hours and God-only-knows how many words for making the sole point that The Sun is a tabloid and the article has a U.K. slant. What next -- an entire alternative world wide web dovoted to Aris' assessment of the NYT?
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 21:18 Comments ||
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#116
Tom, you keep on repeating that "18 hours" as if it was 18 hours straight. In the meantime I had several hours of sleep, finished up some details on a website I'm constructing, and watched an entire third of a television season on DVD.
Get a grip and stop obsessing over my habits. They are not your concern. Seriously, do you have a crush on me or something? What's this obsessive thingy of yours where you not only search the web for photos of me but even evaluate my web habits?
#117
Aris, quite a few times I posted in your defense when I felt you have a good point that may have been misconstrued because, frankly, you're like the boy that cried wolf one time too many.
Unfortunately, these instances of clarity and well though out contributions on your side are rare. Wish that it were otherwise. At least, you are a good target to make fun of, that I have to admit.
#118
The Greek should not confuse the ability to Google "Katsaris photo" with a crush or "obsessive thingy". Nor should noting the time stamp on #4 be misconstrued as an evaluation of "web habits".
We should all ponder why the Greek enjoys being a target. He needs to get over it before May.
Posted by: Tom ||
03/02/2005 21:34 Comments ||
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#119
Sobiesky, I made the claim that the article is lying. I then proceeded to prove it.
I also called The Sun worse than Baghdad Bob or Pravda. Which based on all I've seen is also quite true, regardless of whether you excuse it away by calling it a "tabloid" or not.
For those claims, the first ad hominem insults started flying by Bulldog, calling me "ignorant", "hysteric", "pathetic" and ofcourse a "scumbag".
Then the chorus of idiots began, and as the claims about the lying content of the article wer all confirmed, the chorus immediately switched over to a discussion of my habits whether on the web or personal.
#7
I thought it was the Americans that had the weight problem?
Actually, I don't like to be mean to people about their weight, but after the recent anti-American marketing campaign in Europe for McDonalds, there can be no more sacred cows.
#10
Can anyone spot Severina Vuckovic crying in the nude for that dude is wearing her thong and bra ?Crewl shewls , too ! He's wearing her heels ! Poor nekkid boitch !
BY JAMES TARANTO
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 10:53 a.m. EST
'But as an American . . .'
We hardly ever watch Comedy Central's "The Daily Show With Jon Stewart," but our TV happened to be tuned to it last night when erstwhile Clinton aide Nancy Soderberg, author of "The Superpower Myth: The Use and Misuse of American Might" (foreword by Bill Clinton, blurb by Madeleine Albright) came on. We're not sure what possessed us to turn on the sound and watch, but we're glad we did, for it was a fascinating interview. Here's a TiVo-assisted transcript of most of it: snip
Soderberg: Well, I think, you know, as a Democrat, you don't want anything nice to happen to the Republicans, and you don't want them to have progress. But as an American, you hope good things would happen. I think the way to look at it is, they can't credit for every good thing that happens, but they need to be able to manage it. I think what's happening in Lebanon is great, but it's not necessarily directly related to the fact that we went into Iraq militarily. snip Money quote
Soderberg: There's always hope that this might not work. No, but I think, um, it's--you know, you have changes going on in Egypt; Saudi Arabia finally had a few votes, although women couldn't participate. What's going on here in--you know, Syria's been living in the 1960s since the 1960s--it's, part of this is-- Jon Stewart skewers her.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
03/02/2005 4:17:37 PM ||
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#1
Perfect. The exquisite pain of the Moonbats. Thx, DB - that link just went out to about 40 people, heh!
#3
I've just been to the DailyKos for the first time. They have a real Bush cult going. Everything is Bush's fault. When the global flu pandemic comes its going to be Bush's personal responsibility.
From the Chicago Tribune on the murder of Judge Lefkow's family. This does have WoT implications. EFL.
A possible link between the slayings of a federal judge's husband and mother and the conviction last year of a white supremacist who tried to have her killed is one of several facets an investigative task force will pursue, Chicago officials said today.
But authorities declined to connect the slayings at the North Side home of U.S. District Judge Joan H. Lefkow and the case of Matthew Hale, convicted last year of trying to arrange the judge's murder after she held him in contempt of court. "There is much speculation about possible links between this crime and the possible involvement of hate groups," said Chicago Chief of Detectives James Molloy. "This is but one facet of our investigation.
Lefkow arrived Monday evening at her residence in the 5200 block of North Lakewood Avenue in the Edgewater neighborhood to find her husband and mother dead of gunshot wounds in the dwelling's basement. Investigators said they believe the victims were shot to death between 10:30 a.m., when Humphrey spoke by telephone with one of her daughters, and 6:30 p.m., when Judge Lefkow came home and discovered the bodies.
The judge's daughter had stopped by the house at 4 p.m. to pick up a gym bag and had left without seeing her father or grandmother or anything amiss in the house, police said. However, Molloy said investigators believe the victims already were dead by that time.
"We have a lot of physical evidence from the scene, but I'm not going to get into what type it is," Molloy said. When asked if neighbors heard gunshots Monday, the detective said, "We have some people we discovered during the canvass last night. What they told us is not going to be disclosed."
Shannon Metzger, spokeswoman for the U.S. Marshals Service, said a special protection detail had been assigned to Lefkow's home last year during the Hale trial, but that arrangement lasted only "a couple" of weeks and was discontinued with the judge's consent. The judge and her family today were under the protection of the U.S. Marshals Service, the Associated Press reported.
Hale, 33, is in custody in Chicago awaiting sentencing on one count of murder solicitation and three counts of obstruction of justice. During the trial, prosecutors said Hale was furious after Lefkow ordered him to stop using the name World Church of the Creator because it had been trademarked by an Oregon-based religious group that has no ties to Hale.
Hale's father, retired East Peoria policeman Russell Hale, offered condolences to Lefkow's family, but said his son could not have been involved in the deaths because he is under constant surveillance while awaiting sentencing. Hale is only allowed visits and phone calls twice a month with his divorced parents, and those conversations are monitored and recorded by FBI agents, his father said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/02/2005 12:27:26 AM ||
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#1
Hale is only allowed visits and phone calls twice a month with his divorced parents, and those conversations are monitored and recorded by FBI agents, his father said.
What about his lawyer? Whats-her-name was convicted for being the communication channel for the Blind Sheik. Maybe his lawyer's doing the same thing.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/02/2005 9:52 Comments ||
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#2
One thing that will be ignored in the media as this plays out: Hale and similar vermin are in complete solidarity with the ummah and the American left on such issues as Iraq and Israel.
So far, the red-brown alliance in this country has not led to direct cooperation between lefties and neo-nazi nutcakes, but it is only a matter of time.
The far-left's extensive legal, financial, and media resources could turn the far-right's obsessive violence and relative skill with weapons into a massively lethal force.
The latter is what the left-conformist collective conspicuously lacks in this country, a more extreme red-brown combo could provide it.
#3
The problem with such a "Red Brown" alliance is the the reds staters just don't have the material to make that much trouble. They have eschewed the means of self defense (that can be used for attack) and the mindset required to use them for so long they can't become a credible threat over night. Before they did they would be rounded up tried and locked up. The only support the Left can give is that which it is giving now, political and social.
A veteran Myanmar democracy activist who spent seven years in jail for distributing anti-government leaflets has been rearrested by military authorities, his colleagues said on Tuesday. U Thu Wai, 73, who was set free from Yangon's notorious Insein jail in December as part of a mass prisoner release, was picked up along with two other opposition politicians in early February. "I heard that U Thu Wai and Daw Cho Cho Kyaw Nyein were moved to Insein Prison but I just don't know why they were arrested or their situation now," Win Naing, a colleague of U Thu Wai, told Reuters. He identified the third arrested activist as Shwe Ohn. Myanmar's secretive military government has made no public pronouncements regarding the arrests. One of most respected democracy activists in the former Burma, which has been under military rule for more than four decades, Thu Wai has been imprisoned several times for his political activities.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 8:42:37 PM ||
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Wednesday, March 02, 2005
CUMBERLAND CITY, Tenn. — A school bus driver was shot to death as she drove her route Wednesday morning and a male student was taken into custody, authorities said. No students were hurt.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
03/02/2005 12:36:13 PM ||
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EFL:
United Nations peacekeepers in the Democratic Republic of Congo have killed more than 50 militiamen in a gun battle in the north-east, the UN says. The fierce fighting came during a major offensive against an ethnic militia, accused of killing nine Bangladeshi UN soldiers in Ituri province last week. A UN spokeswoman accused the militia of killing and raping civilians from rival groups and said they must be stopped. The UN force in DR Congo is one of the world's largest, at more than 13,000. "While on operation we were fired upon, so we immediately responded," said Col Dominique Demange, a spokesman for UN forces in DR Congo. He said the Pakistani UN troops had used helicopter gunships and armoured vehicles in the operation against the ethnic Lendu Nationalist and Integrationist Front (FNI).
Tuesday's clash took place near where the Bangladeshi troops were ambushed last week, outside Loga, 30 km (19 miles) north of Bunia, Ituri's provincial capital. AFP news agency reports the militia were based on a plateau overlooking the town of Kafe, where more than 8,000 people have fled recent violence.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/02/2005 8:21:59 AM ||
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Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) parliamentarians supported treasury members to reject by majority vote a proposed bill seeking amendments to the Code of Criminal Procedure Bill 2005 (amendments in Section 401 and 417 and insertion of a new Section of 345-A), related to Karo Kari. The bill was tabled by treasury MNA Kashmala Tariq suggesting three amendments related to the issue of Wali, compoundability and the remission of sentence. The MMA parliamentarians supported the government in rejecting the bill while Pakistan People's Party Parliamentarians (PPP-P) strongly supported the bill. Heated debate took place from both the opposition and treasury.
Law Minister Wasi Zafar opposed the bill calling it "un-Islamic". Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan of the Pakistan People's Party said the bill was not un-Islamic because Islam did not allow anyone involved in the killing of a human being to be absolved by taking advantage of a loophole in the law. He said those involved in the conspiracy of murder could not be absolved. Riaz Fatiana who was presiding over the proceedings sought the view of Ijazul Haq, the federal minister for religious affairs, who said that in Saudi Arabian law, the state was acting as 'Wali'. He added that he had not studied the proposed bill in detail.
Asadullah Bhutto said that feudal lords were behind Karo Kari cases. He said Islam did not allow killing in the name of honour. The MMA members staged a token walkout when the speaker did not allow them to speak on the subject. Khurshid Afgan said that women should not get more liberty than Islam allowed them. The chairperson declared that the bill stood rejected after the vote on voice count. The MMA members were among those who opposed the bill.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/02/2005 8:17:30 PM ||
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#1
Yes sisters you are nothing but breeding stock to the most holy allen. If a male decides to kill you he can be absolved for as little as a few goats. As long has he murders you for "honor' he can be forgiven.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
At least three objections have been lodged against the wedding between Britain's Prince Charles and his longtime mistress Camilla Parker-Bowles in the latest hiccup to their plans, a newspaper said yesterday. The legal complaints, or caveats, were delivered to the head of the registrar office in Cirencester, Gloucestershire, southwest England, which covers Charles' countryside retreat of Highgrove, the Daily Mail reported. If they provide a convincing argument, any one of the documents could prevent the two divorcees from holding a civil marriage ceremony on April 8, it said. "I can confirm that at least three objections have been received by the Cirencester office and I have copied the one lodged by Williamson," Diane Waddington, registrar for Chippenham in Wiltshire, told the daily. 
Venezuela's investigative police arrested fugitive labor leader 
The latest move by the Kremlin to shore up its rule comes after claims that it has been using infiltrators to stir trouble at anti-government rallies, giving the police an excuse to disperse them. In the eyes of many, the tactics are more reminiscent of the Hitler Youth of pre-war Germany than of the supposed democracy in Russia whose health Mr Putin indignantly defended when he met President George W Bush last week. 
A veteran Myanmar democracy activist who spent seven years in jail for distributing anti-government leaflets has been rearrested by military authorities, his colleagues said on Tuesday. U Thu Wai, 73, who was set free from Yangon's notorious Insein jail in December as part of a mass prisoner release, was picked up along with two other opposition politicians in early February. "I heard that U Thu Wai and Daw Cho Cho Kyaw Nyein were moved to Insein Prison but I just don't know why they were arrested or their situation now," Win Naing, a colleague of U Thu Wai, told Reuters. He identified the third arrested activist as Shwe Ohn. Myanmar's secretive military government has made no public pronouncements regarding the arrests. One of most respected democracy activists in the former Burma, which has been under military rule for more than four decades, Thu Wai has been imprisoned several times for his political activities.
Wednesday, March 02, 2005 
