The U.S. Embassy security officer didnât mince words. "You should get the f--- out of here," he told representatives of American companies at a May 4 meeting in Riyadh. After gunmen killed five employees of engineering firm ABB Lummus Global at a refinery part-owned by Exxon Mobil Corp. at Yanbu on May 1, expats in the kingdom are listening. ABB has evacuated about 90 employees, and other companies are reducing head counts. It is dawning on everyone who does business with the kingdom that the Saudi government is locked in a long, vicious struggle with Islamic militants that threatens to send wave after wave of jitters through the oil markets and shake the timbers of the House of Saud. Oil prices hit 13- year highs of almost $39 per barrel on May 4 as traders panicked about the possibility of disruptions of shipments from the worldâs largest exporter. With only 2 million to 3 million barrels per day of spare capacity in the world, any disruption of Saudi crude flows would send prices into the stratosphere. A mass exodus of Western oil technicians could also have a long-term impact on the Saudisâ ability to manage their industry.
Saudi oil officials say the worries about supply outages are exaggerated and that their facilities can function in the toughest environments. "Itâs going to take a lot more than people running around shooting AK-47s to disrupt our operations," says Sadad Husseini, who recently retired as executive vice-president for exploration and production at Saudi Aramco. But traders arenât listening. "If something happens in Saudi Arabia, the futures markets are going to react swiftly and upward," says Adam Sieminski, an oil analyst at Deutsche Bank in London. The betting is that the markets wonât relax about Saudi Arabia soon. While the Saudis have woken up to the dangers posed by Islamic fanaticism, diplomats in the kingdom are skeptical that they have the skills to deal with committed militants. Moreover, the reforms that many Saudis think are needed to assuage growing discontent seem to be losing momentum. "If you donât have genuine, comprehensive reforms, more young men will throw themselves in the arms of the jihadis," says Mai Yamani, research fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London. Now thereâs a BGO (Blinding Glimpse of the Obvious).
Under Crown Prince Abdullah, the kingdom has whipped its often shaky finances into shape, thanks in part to booming oil revenues. But hoped-for political changes such as elections for the Consultative Council have been slow to materialize. The Crown Prince promised elections for municipal councils this fall, but preparations are lagging. Another shocking lack of progress by the House of Saud.
Particularly discouraging were the arrests in late March of a dozen moderate reformists on the eve of a visit by U.S. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell. Apparently hard-liners in the royal family were alarmed at calls for a constitutional monarchy and wanted to send a message to the U.S. to back off on its push for democracy. "All we have heard is promises; we havenât seen a single sign of practical reform," says Mohsen Al-Awajy, a leading critic of the government. Events in Iraq such as the siege of Fallujah have energized the Saudi jihadists. "Join the brothers in Fallujah," shouted the killers in Yanbu as they displayed a dragged corpse to students at a school. In such an atmosphere, the royals are likely to hunker down and take few risks. And this represents a major strategy shift in exactly what way?
Man, like the tortoise, makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
- ANCIENT GREEK SAYING -
A lack of any risk-taking is merely turning turtle right now. Someone needs to spell this out to the Saudis in no uncertain terms.
#1
The Saudis are going down, the rest of the world better make their contingency plans for other sources to cover the Saudi loss.
I would like to see our administration quietly making contingency plans for this rather than having the inevidable happen and we are standing around with our pants down. This is so fundamental that it is sickening.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 16:37 Comments ||
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#2
Well, the Eastern Province, where the oil is, is rather isolated from the main population centers of Saudi. The rest can go hang.
#3
Let's see - we discover uses for oil, explore and discover oil in Arabia, build the wells and pipelines and other oil infrastructure while the Arabs herd goats.
The Arabs then steal nationalize - decades ago - all the work we did, but they don't/can't learn how to run the fields, so we still have to do that for them.
Everything they've got that's worth anything - other than goats and camels - was invented and built by someone else, in all likelihood us.
And we're supposed to respect these lazy, whiny-assed losers why, exactly?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 17:45 Comments ||
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#4
OK - I have a bottom line question. If the Mullai overtake Saudi, then do we occupy the Eastern Province?
Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States condemned as "criminal and inhuman" the decapitation in Iraq of American Nicholas Berg. Speaking in Arabic on Wednesday to the Saudi media in Jiddah, the Saudi summer capital, Prince Bandar said the al-Zarqawi group, which took responsibility for the execution, was "a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group allied with (Osama) bin Laden and the criminals of al-Qaida." Bandar said the group had also killed Muslims and Arabs for no reason. "It is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts," Bandar said in response to questions from the Saudi media.
Bandar's remarks were distributed Thursday by the Saudi embassy in Washington. Arab leaders often have condemned terror acts against U.S. citizens and facilities. Making the statements in Arabic to Arabs, as Bandar did, gives the criticism added authority. The ambassador also said there was no doubt the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by some U.S. military personnel was "despicable and criminal." However, Bandar said, the Saudi media "should be aware that we do not make the same mistake of generalization that was made by the U.S. media and certain American politicians" in accusing all Saudis of terrorism because 15 of the 19 Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers were Saudis. Those accusations were "untrue and unacceptable," the ambassador said. "That is why we should now condemn only those who committed these horrendous acts against Iraqi prisoners and make clear that they do not represent the majority of the U.S. military and certainly not the American people and their morality."
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:55 ||
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Photos which appeared in the Daily Mirror apparently showing abuse of an Iraqi detainee were "categorically not taken in Iraq", Adam Ingram told MPs. The defence minister said the truck in the photos had never been in Iraq. But the Daily Mirror said Mr Ingram had "not produced incontrovertible evidence that the pictures are faked". The paperâs editor said "the pictures accurately illustrated the reality about the appalling conduct of some British troops". Or, in other words: "buy the Mirror for bullsh1t.".
But BBC Political Editor Andrew Marr said senior officers had claimed the photographs were actually taken at a Territorial Army Barracks in Preston, Lancashire. He said Mirror editor Piers Morgan told him on Thursday "there were âtwo hopes for my resignation - no hope and Bob Hopeâ, which gives you some sense of the boneheaded stupidity crumbling sense of contrition inside Mr Morgan". Mr Ingram refused to say any more about the Royal Military Police inquiry into the photos because criminal offences may have been committed. He said he was disturbed that troops were being vilified before facts were established. He also called on Mr Morgan "to assist fully in this inquiry". The editor claims he has cooperated. Mr Morgan insists the photos were "just one piece of evidence about one incident" and his paper made "no apology" for being a fifth column rag highlighting "a much bigger issue". However, the minister said the publication of the photos had impacted on the morale and safety of British armed forces. He said troops had been injured by a petrol bomb thrown by children in Iraq, had been attacked by militiamen and a patrol suffered a grenade attack in Basra.
The Military Policeâs special investigations branch has been investigating the Mirror photos of alleged abuse by soldiers in the Queenâs Lancashire Regiment (QLR). Brigadier Geoff Sheldon of the QLR said the regiment was "deeply troubled" by the allegations. "We know itâs not true so the feeling is one of disappointment, anger, irritation," he told the BBC. Mr Ingram told MPs the "very high name of the QLR has been dragged through the mud by the Mirror" and he understood the anger of the regiment and their families. "Those pictures were categorically not taken in Iraq," he said. "I can also tell the House this is not only the opinion of the special investigationsâ branch investigators - it has been independently corroborated. "The truck in which the photos were taken was never in Iraq. "Those involved may have committed criminal offences under military law which are the proper subject of on-going investigations by the RMP."
Tory defence spokesman Keith Simpson said: "Those who connived with the production of those photographs and those who have published them did a great wrong." He said the "good name and possibly the lives" of British troops "have been traded for what now appear to be cheap news headlines". Bye bye Piers. Donât let the door...
#1
Well he's not known as Piers Moron for nothing. You'd have thought that the meedja would now be very cautious about stories coming out of Iraq, surely the humiliating spectacle of the CSM actually having to apologize to Gorgeous George* would have drummed the message 'be damn sure of your info before going public' into even the thickest of skulls?
*For those outside the UK George Galloway has now founded a coalition called Respect (no, I'm serious!) Cos you've got to respect a man who can kiss Nawaz Sharif's arse so eloquently!
Posted by: Dave (UK) ||
05/13/2004 17:44 Comments ||
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Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:47 ||
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#1
I love it. In the UK they question the press's veracity as well they should. Over here the opposite. No one takes umbrage with the Press. Let them write what they want. Slander, anti-war whatever. Gott alove that free press right? No accountability at all.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
05/13/2004 15:13 Comments ||
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BEIJING (Reuters) - North Korea said on Friday it would not be able to continue discussing possible solutions to a nuclear standoff unless the United States dropped demands for a complete dismantlement of the Northâs nuclear arms programs. It is impossible to believe that North Korea does not understand how this is the ultimate deal-breaker.
Pak Myong-kuk, a North Korean delegate to working group talks in Beijing, said Pyongyang was prepared to discuss the scope, timing and the length of a freeze of its nuclear activities and methods of verifying it. Weâve already seen the results of North Korean promises to "freeze" their nuclear activities. It can only be assumed that covert weapons development continues at present and would continue to happen during any putative freeze.
"But the United States repeated its position that it would be willing to discuss the problem only under the precondition that we pledge a CVID," Pak said at a news conference. CVID refers to a complete, verifiable and irreversible dismantlement of the nuclear programs. The working-level talks were set up at the second round of six-country talks in February. China has hosted the talks by the two Koreas, the United States, Japan and Russia. Iâve yet to see China put anything on the table in the way of penalties should North Korea not comply. At some point this albatross needs to be hung right around Chinaâs extremely culpable neck.
"We expressed the position that we would not be able to continue discussing a freeze for compensation," he said. But Pak left the door open for further discussions, including another round of talks scheduled for later on Friday, saying it would continue the process with patience. "Patience" from Americaâs standpoint can only be interpreted as weakness in this matter. There needs to be made clear a well established scale of repercussions should there not be immediate steps towards a dismantling of North Koreaâs nuclear program. A full maritime blockade of their nation and interdiction of air traffic needs to happen. These lying morons need to be starved out and winter is not coming soon enough. No one can afford to have more missile technology shipped to Iran or other rogue nations. Beside state sponsored distribution of narcotics, this seems to be one of their only other channels of hard currency intake. North Koreaâs proliferation of missile technology alone is sufficiently destabilizing, their nuclear aspirations are merely (vehement) insult to injury.
Iâm interested to hear what other members at this site would consider to be appropriate and productive counter-measures that could be taken against North Korea.
#1
North Korea said on Friday it would not be able to continue discussing possible solutions to a nuclear standoff unless the United States dropped demands for a complete dismantlement of the Northâs nuclear arms programs.
Then there is nothing further to talk about, and no further aid or assistance should be contemplated by either us or them. End of story. This constant talking without progress is simply a waste of time.
#2
Bomb-a-rama, I agree except about the "waste of time" part. Any lack of progress towards dismantling North Korea's nuclear program must be interpreted as an explicit opportunity for them to continue developing atomic weapons.
This is why I'm hoping to elicit some suggestions hereabouts as to how substantive progress can be made. There is also a glaring lack of protest from the EU over this matter despite the fact that North Korean missile technology sales to Iran will enable delivery of payloads into the European theater.
This fact in combination with Iran's continued development of nuclear weapons should encourage European leaders to get on board with some sort of international coalition to deal with the issue, both in North Korea and Iran. It is delusional for them to think that North Korea is too far away for it to be of any immediate concern. (Although such a head-in-the-sand approach would be nothing new for them.)
If Europe is unwilling to incur some degree of wrath from China by imposing their will about North Korea, such reticence must be drawn together with their implication in the "Food for Oil" scandal. Europe has already displayed such tendencies by refusing to assist with Taiwan's submarine contracts because of trade related saber-rattling by China. To constantly seek economic advantage at the price of turning a blind eye towards terrorism and it's sponsors is tantamount to sponsoring it themselves.
One would think that Madrid's 3-11 attacks made all of this patently clear. If Europe is relying upon the IAEA to restrain Iran's nuclear aspirations they are worse than deluded. At that point they may as well outrightly facilitate proliferation of missile and nuclear technology themselves.
#3
Admiral Zenni, the EU doesn't consider this to be their problem.
They're in bed with Red China and in their minds, China is "handling it."
Have you ever seen the movie "Boogie Nights?"
They think this is a YP--Your Problem, USA--and not an MP, My Problem.
Once they tried to intervene in the Iran nuke matter and failed, they consider their work to be done.
Get a clue, Zipperhead!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/13/2004 15:50 Comments ||
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#4
To the contrary, keep 'em talking, and talking, and talking right up to the moment they collapse and some general gets the idea that he should be the big cheeze at Diamond Mountain.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 15:38 Comments ||
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#5
Notice, this didn't come from Kim!
Still no real "proof of life" from Dear Leader.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/13/2004 15:39 Comments ||
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North Korea on Wednesday proposed holding high-level military talks with South Korea on May 26 aimed at reducing tension centered on the international standoff over the communist state's nuclear weapons development. In a telephone message, the North suggested that officials meet on the border Friday to work out the proposed high-level talks, the South's Defense Ministry said. The North proposed holding the high-level talks May 26 at its east coast Diamond Mountain resort, it said. The South did not have an immediate response, but it has repeatedly urged the North for such high-level military talks.
"Kim! It's our crazy cousins up north! They want us to come up there to talk!"
"Sure, but I wouldn't travel there by train."
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 12:51:08 AM ||
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#1
I don't know that I'd ride on the roller coaster at the Diamond Mountain resort either:)
#5
I propose the next Rantburg convention be held at the Diamond Mountain resort (I still wouldn't ride the roller coaster, but I might ride the hookers..;)
#6
Shipman. "Mystery Meat" in Kim's "People's Republic" could mean you would be following in the footsteps of Hannibal Lechter or Jeffrey Dahmer. I wouldn't trust it.
Imam Yashar Ali, an Iraqi political refugee accused of using a âsocio-cultural centerâ in northwest Paris, to make strong anti-American speeches and disseminate radical teachings by video conferences, has been arrested and told that he will be sent back to Baghdad.
Talk about coal to Newcastle...
He is presently at a special penal retention center outside Paris. After two Algerian Imams, and a Turk, Yashar Ali is the fourth âradicalâ imam to be expelled from France for preaching extremist views. Police recently said that they would expel controversial imams and that the number might go as high as thirty. According to police, Yashar Ali was warned a year ago when he was preaching extremism in central France and placed under house arrest. French intelligence reports said that Yashar Ali was âsuspected of being in contact with fundamentalist Islamic movementsâ and âwas known for his virulent and aggressive sermonsâ which were aimed especially against the âcoalition forces in Iraq in general and against the United States in particular.â Yashar Ali was known to âexhort the faithful to avenge the deaths of their Muslim brothers in Iraq.â
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:19 ||
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#1
Have they actually succeeded in deporting anybody yet? I thought I'd heard that some court issued an order allowing the first guy back in.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/14/2004 0:09 Comments ||
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Police union officials challenged Ireland's justice minister Wednesday over the government's stated willingness to parole four Irish Republican Army prisoners convicted of killing a police officer. Members of the Garda Siochana, Ireland's largely unarmed police force, have been outraged by the government's acknowledgment that it offered early paroles of the four men during unsuccessful peacemaking negotiations with Sinn Fein, the IRA-linked party, last year.
I can't imagine why...
The government of Prime Minister Bertie Ahern previously insisted that the IRA men convicted of killing officer Jerry McCabe in 1996 could not have their sentences reduced under terms of Northern Ireland's 1998 peace accord. That historic agreement delivered freedom to hundreds of other paramilitary convicts in both the British territory and in the Irish Republic, but the government insisted the McCabe killing was a special case. In a 1999 letter to McCabe's wife, Anne, the government promised that the men convicted of killing her husband would serve their full sentences. But Ahern told lawmakers Wednesday that the four could be freed if the IRA fully renounced violence, the goal of last year's failed negotiations in Belfast. He noted that the IRA would need to cease all activities, including robberies, and fully disarm. "If all of those points were agreed, we would have honored our commitments," he said, referring to the early parole for the four IRA men. "But those points were not agreed."
After a two-hour meeting with Justice Minister Michael McDowell, leaders of the Garda Representative Association said they were satisfied that the government did not intend to release any of the IRA men anytime soon. But the police union said it also was consulting lawyers about a possible lawsuit against the government if it tried to free any of the four men early. The four were convicted in 1999 of manslaughter in the death of McCabe, who was shot three times point-blank during a botched IRA raid on a cash-filled van that police were guarding in the County Limerick village of Adare. McCabe's police partner was seriously wounded. The IRA initially denied involvement in the 1996 attack, then said its Limerick members carried out the attack as an unauthorized operation. During the IRA men's trial, prosecutors reluctantly dropped murder charges after two key witnesses declined to testify because of IRA threats. So, instead of facing a potential minimum 40-year sentence for murdering a police officer, the four received sentences for manslaughter ranging from 11 to 14 years. The IRA traditionally avoids attacks on members of the Irish army and Garda Siochana in order to minimize public opposition to IRA activities in neighboring Northern Ireland.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:02 ||
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#1
No surrender.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/14/2004 4:12 Comments ||
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A Greek radical group claimed responsibility Thursday for triple bombings at a police station and warned that some visitors to the Olympic Games — from heads of state to wealthy Western tourists — would be "undesirable."
"We don't want no daggone furriners around here, sniffin' around our wimmin!"
The proclamation by the group Revolutionary Struggle did not threaten future attacks. But its anger over Olympic security measures could further shake international confidence about the Aug. 13-29 games. "All members of international capital (multinational companies, business executives), global mercenary killers, the state officials and the wealthy Western tourists who plan on finding themselves at the games are undesirable," said the statement published in the weekly newspaper To Pontiki.
"Don't want none o' them danged globalists and international money men here..."
Greek government spokesman Theodoros Roussopoulos said authorities are "not worried." Police believe the declaration came from the same group that struck in September with twin bombings at a judicial complex, wounding one officer. The group said the May 5 blasts outside the police station in the suburb of Kalithea showed "vulnerability" and that the "famous dogma of total security is meaningless." The attack, which caused limited damage but no injuries, occurred on the beginning of the 100-day countdown to the games' opening ceremony. The new statement said the Olympic security plan, which includes NATO assistance, has turned Athens into a "fortress" and "is not about a celebration, as organizers like to say, but about war."
"So that's why we blow stuff up..."
Despite the proclamation's ominous tone, Greek urban guerrilla groups mostly wage pinpoint arson or bomb attacks on commercial, diplomatic or police targets. The blasts are usually timed late at night to avoid causalities. Last week's bombings, however, appeared designed for bloodshed and rattled security forces leading an Olympic protection network costing more than $1.2 billion. The Greek government — which repeatedly insisted last week's bombings were not linked to the Olympics — tried to maintain a calm front. Roussopoulos said the proclamation would be treated with "seriousness and responsibility." However, the bombings heightened worldwide anxiety about the security of the games — the first summer Olympics since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:53 ||
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Again, blame Expatica for the dreadful pun in the headline.
The Dutch-Belgian Arab European League (AEL) is finding it increasingly difficult to arrange a controversial meeting at which Muslim militant Qazi Hussain Ahmed is scheduled to speak. Fred, I donât remember; is Qazi the big fat turban or the really big fat turban?
I think Fazl's fatter than Qazi, but only by a hundred pounds or so...
The AEL initially planned to hold the meeting at the Haagse Hogeschool in The Hague (try saying that three times fast), but the college pulled out in protest against the invitation extended to the Pakistani militant. "Sure, you can use our lecture hall...er...youâre inviting who whom?"
Organisers then booked a hall in the Nederlands Congress Centrum in The Hague, but like the Haagse Hogeschool, the congress centre claims it has been misled by AEL leader Abou Jahjah and co-organiser Al Beit al-Arabi. Ethel, bring Fredâs pills at once. Those nice young men were being deceptive!
The congress centre claims the AEL was not fully open about the nature of the meeting, planned for 21 May, newspaper De Telegraaf reported on Tuesday. It has refused to host the public meeting. The AEL refused to comment on Monday about the controversy that has erupted around Hussain Ahmed, the president of the Islamic party Jamaat-e-Islami, which has been accused of carrying out bloody attacks on Indian targets in the disputed Kashmir region.
JI doesn't carry out attacks in Kashmir. They just provide the cannon fodder. JI shelters, aids and abets the Taliban and Hizb-e-Islami. And al-Qaeda...
The Hague-based Centre for Information and Documentation on Israel (CIDI) has warned the visit will endanger national security and public order. It has urged the Dutch government to refuse entry to Hussain Ahmed. Also, the Dutch Hindu community plans to demonstrate against Hussain Ahmed if he gains entry to the Netherlands. âThis man is a disruptive factor for peace in Europe; he sets population groups against each other,â a chief Hindu representative said.
Oh, he just wants to be caliph...
Belgian Interior Minister Patrick Dewael has told the Belgian Parliament that Hussain Ahmed is to be received by the AEL in Belgium on 22 May and both the Dutch and Belgian governments are currently discussing the possibility of refusing entry to the Islamic leader. Hussain Ahmed sparked controversy last weekend when he addressed a âhate congressâ in the Lebanese capital Beirut. Hamas spiritual leader Mohammed Nazaal and the âspiritual father of the Palestinian suicide bombersâ, Sheik Yousef al-Qardawi, also spoke at the congress. It is also known that Hussain Ahmed has in the past supported the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. He expressed sympathy for Osama bin Laden, the leader of terror network Al Qaeda.
When Khalid Sheikh Mohammad was picked up, it was at a JI member's house...
Dutch politicians have voiced concerns about the AEL, which was founded in 2001 in Antwerp, Belgium. The AEL â which later set up a branch in the Netherlands â claims to support integration, but not assimilation of Muslim and Arab immigrants into European society. In April this year, the AELâs website "saluted" the armed resistance to the US-led coalition being mounted by "the Iraqi population" in Fallujah. The US currently has plenty of oceanfront conference space available in Diego Garcia, I understand...
Posted by: Seafarious ||
05/13/2004 1:05:17 AM ||
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#1
FYI AEL wants to get involved in Dutch politics in the future and try to get votes from the about 1 milion muslims which live here on a population of about 16 milion. The AEL has some good friends within some of the Dutch socialist parties (PVDA, GROEN LINKS, SP). The AEL socialist link is also shown openly on their web site hhtp://www.ael.nl and during prostest marches at which socialist leaders and AEL show up together.
#3
Exactly Spot. You should ask these 'enlightened ones' what they think of such pet peeves of the left-winged agenda such as gay rights, separation of religion and government, abortion, etc...
#4
Man, how did we miss last weekend's "hate congress" in Beirut? How come Beirut rings a bell to me...oh yeah, barracks bombings and other terrorist activities! Last weekend's hate fest is what I would've called a "target rich environment"....can't believe Israel didn't take use of that grouping of Islamofascists.
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 10:57 Comments ||
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#5
I say let hime come, but only if he wears one of those Serbian "target" T-shirts.
#6
You should ask these 'enlightened ones' what they think of such pet peeves of the left-winged agenda such as gay rights, separation of religion and government, abortion, etc...
Ask the socialists what they think of the Egyptian stance on female genital mutiliation, but don't stand too close when you do so.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 11:41 Comments ||
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#7
Why don't we offer them a US sponsored facility? We could wire the place, get lots of nice audio and video, and arrange for an accidental gas leak.
Posted by: Tibor ||
05/13/2004 13:44 Comments ||
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A private bank was damaged Thursday in a firebomb attack, authorities said, despite heightened police measures to crack down on arson gangs before the Summer Olympics. The branch of the private Alpha Bank was damaged when two small cooking gas canisters exploded outside the building in the coastal Voula suburb. No one was injured and there was no immediate claim of responsibility. Anarchist groups frequently target banks in arson attacks, rattling police who are on high alert before the Aug. 13-29 Olympics.
Sounds like amateur night.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 12:44:15 AM ||
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#1
If this is amateur hour, and the Greeks can't stop the amateurs, what does that say about when the Pro's (ie AQ) start showing up? The streets of Athens will run red with blood this summer...well, that's assuming they can actually finish their preparations for the Olympics.
#3
Am I the only person who feels a bit nervous about the Games this summer?
I'm not nervous at all. I have no doubt there will be a terrorist attack, so there's no suspense.
I also have no doubt that the US will be blamed for it. So no suspense there, either.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 10:46 Comments ||
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#4
RC: Don't forget, you must not only blame the Great Satan, but also the Jews! Me wonders if AQ now has a guy in charge of Olympic athletes, much like Saddam's offspring was.
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 10:52 Comments ||
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#5
I just hope one of the rop athletes don't exploded, slash or fire. I'd be keeping a damn close eye on the Egyptian modern pentathalon participants.
#6
Sadly enough, I am afraid the Olympics will be like a ponderously moving, multi-line train wreck. It is going to get incredibly ugly, even without a terrorist incident. The demonstrations of anti-Americanism will be absolutely stunning, and I don't even wanna think about what the traffic jams and hotel-screwups are going to be like. Stay away, stay away, unless you're getting paid a LOT of money to go, and have a thick skin and a bullet-proof outer garment.
#8
Sgt Mom -
Having read your very affectionate memories of Greece over on Sgt Strykers' page, your words here have more impact on me than all the threat assessments and color alerts ever could.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/13/2004 12:29 Comments ||
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#9
I loved the place, had a wonderful time there, and many Greek and English friends.... but I was looking over my shoulder, all the time, and worked desperatly hard, every moment I was out in public, at not looking like an American. And from what I have read, it has only gotten worse since the 1980ies.
#10
Sgt Mom, when & where were in greece? I was stationed at Iraklion AS 83-84. Loved the place! Wife and I still have fond memories of living there with NO KIDS! Great food, drink and friends.
#11
I wonder what our old pal Aris has to say about it?
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 13:07 Comments ||
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#12
Look like they don't want anyone to come: A Greek radical group claimed responsibility Thursday for last week's triple bombings at a police station and warned that some visitors to the Olympic Games - from heads of state to wealthy Western tourists - would be "undesirable." The proclamation by the group Revolutionary Struggle did not threaten to carry out future attacks, but clearly expressed anger that the unprecedented Olympic security has transformed Greece into a "fortress."
"All members of international capital (multinational companies, business executives), global mercenary killers, the state officials and the wealthy Western tourists who plan on finding themselves at the games are undesirable," said the statement published in the weekly newspaper To Pontiki.
OK
Posted by: Steve ||
05/13/2004 13:22 Comments ||
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#13
Let me get this straight: They clearly expressed anger that the unprecedented Olympic security has transformed Greece into a "fortress.", but at the same time they claimed responsibility Thursday for last week's triple bombings at a police station.
I guess it didn't occur to them that they ARE the reason that Athens has to be a fortress. Well, them and Hamas and Hizbollah and Al Qaeda and Ansar Al Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood and Jemiyahh Islam and Al Fatah and...
#14
OK, chaps, works for me. I'll be drinking iced chablis on my back porch and watching the sun go down, and thinking regretfully of the crowds, the smog and the terrorism. Have a nice summer, there, OK?
(Cyber Sarge, I was at EBS-Hellenikon from March of 83-September 85)
#15
RC: I have no doubt there will be a terrorist attack
I don't think there will be. But there will be tons of protests, flag burnings, Bushitler signs, spitting, seething, and an occasional molotov cocktail thrown at Americans. And of course, like you said, all will be blamed on the US.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/13/2004 15:12 Comments ||
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#16
Ernest> I wonder what our old pal Aris has to say about it?
Only that traffic jams have pretty much become irrelevant since the subway system was built. And the smog has much lessened also.
#18
The subway's not olympics-centered, so yeah, it's obviously been useful and will still be useful after the olympics -- it's linked to the Peireas haven, the central squares of the city (Syntagma and Omonoia), a station near Acropolis, it's slowly being expanded to cover many suburbs.... Recently news mentioned that the airport station has been completed, though it's not been given to circulation yet.
#23
If I was a tourist there for the Olympics, I'd probably stay away from public transportation. Especially the underground.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/13/2004 18:44 Comments ||
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#24
Aris, are you going to meet up with Murat if he does pop over the Aegean to attend the Games? I'd like to think Rantburg has done something to help foster international relations...
#25
*shrug* I could show him around, as a courtesy, if he wants someone to. But there are probably people here whose company I'd enjoy more -- I don't know anything about his personal side, but on the politics front his brand of conspiracism tends to annoy me.
#26
Aris - beautiful country, awesome history and archaeology which really makes me want to visit, but seriously, even if there weren't Olympic crowds, I'd hesitate...wonder how many other touristas waiting to spend $ are saying the same thing? I'll visit...someday
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 19:30 Comments ||
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#27
No problem at all. Your money's welcome, even if a bit delayed. ;-)
#28
A terrorist attack on the Athens Olympics is IMHO is a cast iron certainty. AQ, AQ wannabes, paleos and various loony lefties are going to be tripping over themselves to get the 'Gold' in synchronized booming.
That's great news for traffic saftey AND the buildings of the Acropolis. (less pollution helps, g) I still think your local lunatic anarchists are going to try something, if not the Islamic terror groups. I hope that Phil_B, myself, and the rest of the gang are wrong, but I doubt it.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 22:05 Comments ||
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#4
Gee, I'd been thinking along the lines of "enthusiastic interrogation" of Zarqawi and the like, "enthusiastic" being defined under methods that leave open wounds and increasingly fewer limbs. In between the sessions, any owwies could be salved with pig fat and the excreta mentioned by tu3031.
But seriously folks (and no, I wasn't being entirely facetious with the above...) we've been awfully restrained in our approaches, humane, civilized even. First, we capture them alive, when their crimes (especially war crimes, given that they admit they're at war) merit an immediate death penalty. On top of that, we feed & clothe them at least as well as Geneva calls for, keeping in mind that Convention adherents give a nod & wink toward "proscribed" methods of interrogation such as sleep deprivation.
We're acting terribly humane, maybe even civilized beyond the capacity of a ninth century society.
#5
Diving compression/de-compression chambers. Put them in and pressurize them, then let off the pressure too fast. When they are shrieking in agony, bring up the pressure. Rinse & repeat as many times as necessary!
Inform them that between every session, operatives will be out working to verify their information, if they lie, they suffer.
-AR
P.S. I'm trying to get on with KBR as an interrogator right now. That's right, we're using contractors to do some of the nasty work. Isn't life grand?
Posted by: Analog Roam ||
05/13/2004 17:47 Comments ||
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#7
#6 Shipman: No. I am an only child. Why do you ask? Could there be someone else that believes that there should be NO artificial niceties in this war for survival?
-AR
Posted by: Analog Roam ||
05/13/2004 19:00 Comments ||
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#8
I like it.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: "No, I do not know what 'the bends' are...is this some wacky prison photo scheme?"
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 19:06 Comments ||
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#9
Analog Roam
I've a friend who is an ex-navy diver and he
described the various uses of the chamber. When
he was training people he gave 'em a little sample
of how bad things could get if they did pay attention and follow procedures.
Terrorists may use secondary explosive devices to kill and injure emergency personnel responding to an initial attack, the FBI has warned law enforcement agencies throughout the country. In its weekly bulletin sent late Wednesday, obtained by Fox News, the FBI cautioned police officers and others to carefully watch their surroundings. "These devices may be hidden in everyday objects such as vehicles, briefcases, flower pots or garbage cans, or can be sequential suicide attacks in the same locations, and are generally detonated less than one hour after initial attack, targeting first responders as well as the general population," the bulletin said. The FBI specifically mentioned the May 5 bombing of a police station in Athens during which three timed explosive devices were used. The third bomb exploded almost half an hour after the first two, "in what authorities believe was an attempt to injure police officers and emergency personnel responding to the scene."
A Greek radical group claimed responsibility Thursday for the bombings and warned that some visitors to this summer's Olympic Games, such as business executives and wealthy western tourists, would not be welcome. Although Greek officials said the aim of the May 5 blasts was to injure policemen, Spencer said that with follow-on attacks, there is usually a wider motive at work as well. The goal is to "incite more terror. If there's an initial explosion and a second explosion, then we're thinking about a third explosion," Spencer said.
The FBI said it possesses no specific information of any planned terrorist attacks in the United States, but noted that law enforcement agencies should remain alert to the use of these types of secondary devices. "Public safety personnel responding to the scene of a bombing incident are recommended to conduct an immediate search of areas established as staging areas for the investigation," the FBI said. "Any suspicious items discovered during the search should be isolated, the staging area relocated and bomb squad personnel requested to investigate the item."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:02:58 PM ||
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The FBI specifically mentioned the May 5 bombing of a police station in Athens (search), during which three timed explosive devices were used.
I don't like being right about this kind of thing.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 15:09 Comments ||
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#2
Didn't the Atlanta Olympic bomber pull that shit, too?
You have to be aware of your surroundings all the time, and be particularly suspicious of anything that looks out of place - even (or especially) a "forgotten" lunchbox or briefcase. Or backpack.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 17:55 Comments ||
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Federal officials are investigating whether a well-educated Pakistani national who was caught attempting to buy plastic explosives, guns and silencers in Tyler this spring has ties to foreign terror groups. Osama Haroon Satti, 35, was arrested March 8 in a Tyler motel room, where he told undercover agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that he wanted to buy C-4 explosives and more than 20 illegal silencers. "It's an interesting case when you have someone in this country illegally trying to buy those kinds of weapons," said Brit Featherston, an assistant U.S. attorney and the federal anti-terrorism coordinator for Texas' eastern district. "Then you have a number of Web postings by Mr. Satti that are also interesting." Featherston declined to comment about the details of the investigation, saying the case is "in a critical period."
Sounds like they caught a live one...
Citing unnamed federal sources, a Dallas television station reported Monday that investigators are trying to determine whether Satti is tied to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistani terror group with links to al-Qaida. Dallas-Fort Worth's KTVT-Channel 11 also reported that investigators in Texas have linked Satti to "persons of interest." Satti, who has been in custody since his arrest, pleaded not guilty last month to two federal gun charges arising from the case. An arrest affidavit states he purchased a Glock 9 mm pistol and an illegal silencer for $2,000 cash during the sting at the Tyler Hampton Inn. His attorney, federal public defender Greg Waldron, did not return calls seeking comment.
Federal officials say Satti traveled to Texas from his home in Alexandria, Va., a Washington suburb and the area where most of the Virginia jihad defendants resided. Texas driver's license records show Satti lived in Gun Barrel City, southeast of Dallas, for a brief period in late 2001. He entered the country from Pakistan on a visitor's visa in September 2001. The visa expired the next year. He first came to the United States in 1990 to attend the Rochester Institute of Technology, where he earned an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering in 1993 and an MBA in 1997. He also lived for a period in 1999 in an apartment in San Jose, Calif., records show. Satti posted numerous messages on Internet discussion groups over nearly a decade. An incomplete search of those sites -- which cover everything from music to politics -- by the Houston Chronicle turned up no bellicose or threatening statements attributed to Satti. ATF Special Agent James Parker, who posed as an illegal gun dealer in the sting, said in his affidavit that Satti "was quite knowledgeable concerning the various handguns and silencers he examined." He hugged and patted the agent down after introducing himself with the words, "Show me what you got."
"Satti said that if the silencer (he purchased) was good, then he would have the money for 10, 15, 20 more silencers in the near future," Parker wrote. He "indicated he was purchasing these firearms and silencers for at least two customers."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:01:01 PM ||
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A local Muslim cleric accused of hiding terrorist ties now has federal investigators looking into his finances. Federal prosecutors are checking the financial records of Fawaz Mohammed Damra, 41. It could lead to charges of tax evasion, money laundering, and mail and wire fraud, NewsChannel5 reported. Damra, the leader of the Islamic Center of Cleveland, is also accused of concealing terrorist ties on his U.S. citizenship application. Prosecutors revealed the financial investigation while explaining to a judge how they plan to use evidence seized in a search of Damra's Strongsville home in January. Damra's lawyers want the judge to exclude the evidence seized from the cleric's home. If convicted in the trial scheduled to begin June 15, Damra could lose his citizenship and be sentenced to up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 2:58:02 PM ||
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Damra's an oily, weasel-y lowlife. I hope he gets nailed but good.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/13/2004 16:38 Comments ||
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U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) Chair Michael K. Young will join Senator Susan M. Collins and Representative Dan Burton at an on-the-record press conference on Capitol Hill on May 13 to announce the decision of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee and the House Government Reform Committee to request that the General Accounting office (GAO) undertake a comprehensive review of U.S. oversight of Saudi support for an ideology promoting violence and intolerance globally. In conducting the study, the GAO will seek information from relevant U.S. government agencies and will consult with outside experts on Saudi promotion of religious extremism, including the USCIRF. The findings of the study will be presented in a public report, although some of the information obtained may be classified.
"In May 2003, the USCIRF issued a report on Saudi Arabia with recommendations for U.S. policy. A key recommendation was for Congress to initiate and make public a study on Saudi exportation of intolerance. The proposed GAO study will fulfill that recommendation," said USCIRF Chair Michael K. Young. "There have been a growing number of reports that funding coming from Saudi Arabia has been used to finance religious schools and other activities that are alleged to support religious intolerance, and in some cases, violence associated with certain Islamic militant and extremist organizations in several parts of the world. These reports raise troubling questions about the Saudi government's role in propagating worldwide an ideology that is incompatible with both the war against terrorism, as well as internationally recognized guarantees of the right to freedom of religion or belief. What we seek are facts - whether they vindicate or implicate Saudi Arabia."
I'll take "implicate" for 500, Alex.
At the press conference, the Commission will also publicly release a new country brief, Policy Focus Saudi Arabia, with updated policy recommendations. The Commission is mandated by Congress to monitor religious freedom around the world and to give independent policy recommendations to the President, the Secretary of State, and the Congress. Policy Focus is designed to inform the broader policy community about the Commission's recommendations for U.S. policy.
This could be fun.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/13/2004 10:12:12 AM ||
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bypassed the Arabist asslickers at State, huh? Looks like the GAO staff will get nice retirement job offers too...
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 10:43 Comments ||
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#2
The Saudi Wahabi "charities" must be dismantled by whatever means necessary.
#3
Dear #1 -- Are you referring to the Saudi practice of buying off State Dept. employees as detailed in Sleeping with the Devil? Think the author's name is Robert Bauer -- can't look it up right now.
#5
The Sauds can only blame themselves since Crown Prince and FM blamed Yanbu shootings on Zionists.
For me, as a former expat there, Yanbu was a watershed for two reasons. 1) Saudi employees walking into an offfice and firing away means that the days of benign spite many Saudis felt toward expats is gone. We can't rely anymore on the wind-wink see-no-evil policy that goes all the way back to FDR. All Western and other 1st world Kuffur were at least allowed to live in peace at long as they were very discreet in matters of liquor, babes, and going to church. Our living on compounds was as much for their sensiblitiis as ours. See? Wink, we know but don't drive drunk or somebody's going to lose his job. Protocol understood.
2) Their audacity in blaming Zionists. Abdullah and Feisal had normally been cooperative over the years in areas where we and they had mutual interests. For example, the number of American-built SUV's driven there and Boeing aircraft, both military and commercial, flown reveals a staggering amount of billions, cash on the barrel head for the most part, the Saudis have been willing to spray on the US economy, which has meant several tens of thousands of jobs for the US in the INDUSTRIAL sector for the past 3 decades. To our benefit. What about the thousands of Americans who owe their lucrative retirements to decades of working in the Magic Kingdom? Personal safety or getting hassled by the Mutawa was never really an onerous burden for me and family since we din't go looking for trouble. All this despite what you hear from Sunday morning pundits, 99% of whom really know nothing about how the place works. I am still confused in understanding what goes on there despite the 9 years spent; how can they pontificate without ever being there unless escorted by a Ministry of Interior press liason who lines up all the "right" people to be interviewed. Mo Dowd and Ed Bradley come to mind as journos who spout about the place, but don't know a damn thing about it. I'm digressing.
Thus, my initial hesitancy in blaming the SAG for 9/11. Yeah, SAG was asleep at the wheel but so were we. However, 2 1/2 years has been enough time for the SAG and its security apparatus to put be helpful, and they haven't. Princes are living in fantasy land. They don't have the brains to know that the Internet will tell us what they say in Arabic to their press? Stupid or naive, whatever may be the cause, the results are before us. I've come to the conclusion that there is nobody reliable there, unlike the old days, to be counted on to keep tenuous US/SAG relationships on an even keel.
Actions now have to speak louder than words. W should show there is a new order by requesting the Saudi ambassador, Bandar, to be replaced. I don't care if Laura, Mrs. Powell and the rest of the DC wives are pals with Mrs. Bandar. Don't worry W, he won't be on unemployment insurance payment for long. If that isn't possible, light a fire under him by being ruthless with border infiltrations, and above all, don't invite him to the WH or Crawford. He laughs behind your back since he's got a cabal of DOS ex-diplomats at his beck and call to spout on TV and follow the appeasement line that has been lucrative for these guys from their first day at State to retirement.
So investigate, boys. Upset the apple cart and let the chips fall where they may.
P.S. Notice I haven't used the word "oil" once here. The situation goes much more beyond that.
Posted by: Michael ||
05/13/2004 13:59 Comments ||
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World Bank corruption may exceed $100 billion and while the institution has moved to combat the problem, more must be done, the chairman of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee said on Thursday. Sen. Richard Lugar, an Indiana Republican, charged that "in its starkest terms, corruption has cost the lives of uncounted individuals contending with poverty and disease." He commended World Bank President James Wolfensohn for bringing greater attention to the issue, but said, "Corruption remains a serious problem." Lugar opened a hearing on corruption at the multilateral development banks, the first public examination in an ongoing Senate investigation.
He cited experts who calculated that between $26 billion and $130 billion of the money lent by the World Bank for development projects since 1946 has been misused. In 2003, the bank spent $18.5 billion in developing countries. Jeffrey Winters, an associate professor at Northwestern University, said his research suggested World Bank corruption wasted about $100 billion and when other multilateral development banks are included, the total rises to about $200 billion. Winters said the World Bankâs anti-corruption effort was having "minimal effects" and the banks should all focus on supervising and auditing their lending. "The lionâs share of the theft of development funds occurs in the implementation of projects and the use of loan funds by client governments," he said. Like other United Nations agencies, World Bank rules prevent staff from testifying in public so Wolfensohn was not at the hearing. But senior bank officials on Monday privately briefed lawmakers on its anti-corruption efforts, a bank spokesman said. Carole Brookins, the U.S. executive director on the World Bank board, defended the bank saying it was leading efforts to fight corruption but acknowledged "there is more that could be done to strengthen the system." More than 180 companies and individuals have been blacklisted from doing business with the World Bank and their names and penalties posted on the bankâs public Web site. Between July 2003 and March 2004, it said it referred 18 cases of fraud or corruption to national justice authorities based on investigations by its anti-corruption unit. What about the "Food for Oil" program?
Specific bank projects under review by the committee include the Yacyreta dam on the Argentina-Paraguay border, the Lesotho Highlands Water Project and projects in Cambodia. Hector Morales, acting U.S. executive director to the Inter-American Development Bank, testified that his institution recently accelerated anti-corruption efforts "but still has much work to do."
- EMPHASIS ADDED - Anyone else smell a "Food for Oil" style coverup coming with this revelation?
When are we going to learn that loaning money to kleptocratic elites is the problem. People in developed countries use capital to build. Kleptocrats will simply steal and launder the money. The only positive is that the money ultimately ends up in the OECD as either payments for goods and services or investments.
#2
Here's an idea: The U.S. shouldn't contribute any more money to this scam called a "World" Bank until we have a COMPLETE PUBLIC ACCOUNTING OF WHERE EVERY PENNY WENT FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.
Let the rest of the world fund the dictators - it's what they do best anyway.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 17:33 Comments ||
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#3
so would y'all approve world bank loans to countries that arent dictatorships??
Note the above was misleadingly worded - the corruption cited is all in the lender countries - NOTHING about bribes received or given by anyone at the WB itself.
Remember when US companies were attacked by the left for giving bribes - "thats just the way you get things done down there"
#4
I think that you meant to say lendee countries, LH.
The problem is that when a country is ready to economically take off on its own accord, it does a fine job of accumulating capital on its own. Capital cannot be accumulated in a country without rule of law and transparency. If a country cannot accumulate capital on its own, it makes no sense to lend it capital since the very conditions that prevent capital from being accumulated will lead to any outside capital to be stolen or mis-invested.
There have been dictatorships that have rule of law (e.g. Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, Chile). It makes sense to invest there. Eventually, democracy takes root. Otherwise, we should just provide direct food, sanitary, medical, and educational aid until they evolve the appropriate institutions.
So as you can see, LH, the World Bank's charter contains a contradiction. It's goal is to solve poverty through capital investment. Poor countries either have or have not evolved rule of law and transparent institutions. If there is no rule of law, poor countries can no more use capital than you or I can digest celluose. If there is rule of law, the market will take care of the problem and readily invest. Therefore, the World Bank has no reason to exist. There is an almost mathematical purity to my little "proof."
PS Nowhere do Barbara and I accuse the WB of being corrupt in the traditional sense. I don't know where you get that from.
#5
Poor countries either have or have not evolved rule of law and transparent institutions. If there is no rule of law, poor countries can no more use capital than you or I can digest celluose.
#6
The fatal flaw of transnational institutions is the ultimate lack of accountability. At least most democratic governments can be tossed by the electorate for corruption or fraud. How does one impeach Kofi?
Posted by: john ||
05/13/2004 21:35 Comments ||
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#7
The fatal flaw of transnational institutions is the ultimate lack of accountability.
Its much worse than that. AFAIAA Kofi Annan could write million dollar checks to anyone he likes, loot the UN vaults at gunpoint and shoot a couple of guards in the process, but not do anything illegal. The UN exists in a legal blackhole that makes its statements about 'international law' laughable.
Non-aligned countries Thursday urged the U.N. Security Council to deploy peacekeepers to provide more targets help end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, citing warnings that the worsening bloodshed there has fueled violence in Iraq. Malaysia, the chair of the Non-Aligned Movement, also said it would issue a statement criticizing U.S. forces' abuse of Iraqi prisoners and urging a greater U.N. role in postwar Iraq. Separately, Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi condemned the beheading in Iraq of U.S. civilian Nicholas Berg. He called it part of a "cycle of violence" that included the prisoner abuse.
Yup. He's riding the Cycle of Violence™ around the block again...
Abdullah, in an opening speech the Non-Aligned Movement's emergency meeting on the Palestinians, said the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was the "root cause of much of the violence in the Middle East ... (and) elsewhere in the world."
Which is why the bloodshed stretches from Mauritania to the Philippines...
"The international community and the United Nations cannot afford to allow this issue to remain unresolved indefinitely," Badawi, chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement, told a key meeting of the 116-nation group. "The rising tensions in the Middle East following the war in Iraq have increased the need for, and importance of, rapid positive movement on the Israeli-Palestinian track." Malaysia hosted a meeting of the group's Committee on Palestine and members on the U.N. Security Council — Algeria, Angola, Benin, Chile, Pakistan and the Philippines. The countries issued a communique urging the Security Council to "authorize an international presence and establish a United Nations peacekeeping mission" in occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem.
Yeah. That should help. I remember, about 20 years ago we had a UN-sanctioned peacekeeping mission in Beirut. Until Hezbollah blew up the barracks the Marines were staying in...
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:50 ||
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Deploy "peacekeepers" to do what? Provide more targets? Help Al Qaeda, the Baathist dead-enders, Hamas, et al., kill more Americans, Israelis and Iraqis? Set up child prostitution rings? Steal more money from the locals?
And fuck you, Abdullah. I've got your "cycle of violence" right here.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 18:24 Comments ||
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#2
They must need more UN per diem.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/13/2004 18:34 Comments ||
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#3
Not targets. The Palestinians have wanted peacekeepers for quite a while. An international 'peacekeeper' presence will, at the least, act as a 'hudna shield'. Depending on who's composing the force, they could also become enablers.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 20:39 Comments ||
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#5
Thanks, but I blame Rantburg for its bad influence on me.
Seriously, the antics of the UN force on the Lebanon border will be minor compared to what would happen in the so-called "occupied Palestinian territories".
I'll go so far as to say, depending on who gets sent there, you'll see "extra" peacekeeper combat equipment 'getting lost' in the camps.
#6
The only reason the Palestinians want UN peacekeepers is to protect them from Israeli retaliation. Not only should the UN not send peacekeepers it should close down its "refugee" camps and cease financial contributions to all Palestinian entities. Either that or be honest and say that they are nothing but pawns for militant Islam and a bunch sclerotic antisemitic Eurosocialists who want to annihilate Israel and in the process stick it to the US.
Malaysia was urged on Thursday to investigate allegations that it was hosting a network of terrorist websites, including one that showed the beheading of a US citizen in Iraq.
Opposition leader Lim Kit Siang said in a statement that a web video of the decapitation of American Nick Berg by Islamic extremists was allegedly traced to a company based in Cyberjaya, a purpose-built centre for IT companies.
The company belonged to MYLOCA Cyberjaya Network Infrastructure, owned by Telekom Malaysia, Lim said, citing a well-known Malaysian weblogger Jeff Ooi, whose output is carried by the online newspaper Malaysiakini.
Other websites linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror network have also allegedly been traced to Malaysia, said Lim, who heads the Democratic Action Party.
"It is imperative that the government act promptly and decisively to get to the bottom of the serious allegation that Malaysia is hosting a master network of international terrorist websites" he said.
Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said he would investigate the allegations, but added: "There are so many terrorist organisations in Europe and the US, but that does not make the US or Europe a terrorist country."
Asked if any action would be taken if the allegations were proved correct, he said: "I don't want to speculate. But we do not support any terrorist activities."
A spokesperson for Telekom Malaysia had no immediate comment on the allegations, but said the company would investigate.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:22:14 PM ||
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Hey, wasn't Jihad Unspun moving their site to Malaysia?
IRNA -- Iran and Saudi Arabia`s parliament speakers in a meeting in Amman on Wednesday night stressed on need for the Islamic world`s unity to confront the occupiers of Iraq. During the meeting on the sidelines of a conference attended by the parliament speakers of Iraq`s neighbors, Hojjatoleslam Karroubi said, "The only way to confront the enemies of Islam effectively is to achieve Islamic unity at global level."
"An' if they're against us, by Gum, they're against Islam!"
He also elaborated on the Islamic Republic of Iran`s detente policy and its positive effects on regional cooperation with the country`s various neighbors. The parliament speaker added, "The excellent Tehran-Riyadh relations, for instance, has had a significant positive regional and international effect."
I think we've seen that...
Expressing deep sorrow over the inhumane torture and massacre of the innocent Iraqis by the uninvited occupiers of their country, Karroubi said, "Ever-more proximity of the world Muslims would annul the inhumane plots hatched against the Iraqi nation by the occupiers."
Hey! I mean, it's not like we cut anybody's head off...
He also considered the situation in Palestine as extremely complicated, asking for the Muslim nations` cooperation to solve the Palestinians` problems. The Majlis speaker at the end once again asked for close Parliamentary relations between the two friendly countries.
Since the parliaments of both countries are completely powerless, it'll give 'em something to do to pass the time.
Saudi Arabia`s Parliament Speaker Saleh bin-Abdullah bin-Hamid, too, said during the meeting, "The past experience proves that good relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia can benefit both countries, as well as the whole region." Stressing that Riyadh is trying to further deepen and broaden its ties and cooperation with Tehran, the Saudi parliament speaker confirmed, "The Middle East is now facing one of its toughest eras in its history, and the threats against Mideast are serious."
"Well... The threats against princelings and mullahs, anyway..."
The Saudi parliament speaker emphasized at the end on the importance of maintaining excellent relations between the two important regional countries, that he said is to the benefit of the Islamic Ummah, adding, "further improving the Tehran-Riyadh ties would have a positive effect on Middle East developments."
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 3:16:08 PM ||
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Excellent relations? WTFO?! Isn't Saudi outsourcing to Pakistan for Nukes to counter the potential threat from Iran?
This does not make sense, but if it is diagnosed as multiple personality disorder, then it makes perfect sense. I wonder, does the ME have their own version of the DSM-V? It would make entertaining reading, heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 15:49 Comments ||
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#2
Expressing deep sorrow over the inhumane torture and massacre of the innocent Iraqis by the uninvited occupiers of their country...
Of course our new friends in the peninsula have never occupied anything or tortured anybody, 'cept in Najran & al-Hasa & that's different...
Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab must be spinning in his grave, his people are doing deals with the Shi'a infidels! They'll be sucking up to the Russian infidels next...ooops I forgot, they already are! Apparently Wahhabis can be craven pragmatic when they feel insecure, who'd have believed it?
Posted by: Dave (UK) ||
05/13/2004 17:19 Comments ||
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#3
For what it's worth, Khomeini was prob'ly more of a Wahabi tha a Shi'a. Remember THIS ?
#4
but if it is diagnosed as multiple personality disorder, then it makes perfect sense. I wonder, does the ME have their own version of the DSM-V? It would make entertaining reading, heh heh.
The DSM-VI, when it comes out, should have ISLAM listed as a Mental Disorder.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 15:12 ||
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Eh. The US is a source of instability in the US, too, but we don't whine about it. It's called "freedom".
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 15:14 Comments ||
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#2
Er, um, Note to Baby Assad. Sounds like you are concerned about those Army and Marine troops on the border with Iraq. As a secular ruler, you might want to contact your court Imam, and see if you can get some dispensation, and thus your allottment of virgins.
#3
1. Stable and tyrannical.
2. Unstable and non-tyrannical.
1 is going to 2. Like it or not here it comes. Assad: your dirty little business is coming to an end. Go have a heart-to-heart with Mo. He knows the way the wind blows...
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 16:07 Comments ||
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#4
As they say in the computer business, "That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
Posted by: Mike ||
05/13/2004 16:35 Comments ||
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#5
Damn right we are.
Hey, Assad:
Boo!
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/13/2004 17:37 Comments ||
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#6
Yes we are, and thank goodness for it.
Just remember, Baby Assad, you too can end up in a septic tank. If you're looking for "stability," I understand their walls are real stable. Just ask your buddy Saddam.
Hey, that gives me an idea for the first legitimate wage-earning job Saddam ever had: he could be a spokesman for a septic tank company!
Maybe he could earn enough to pay his lawyer.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 17:52 Comments ||
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#7
Hey, Syria, we're more than a "source of instability", we're gunslinging, god-fearing, freedom-loving sons of Andrew Jackson swinging our Size 13 steel-toed boots at all the carts filled with rotten apples you have had standing around for decades.
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
05/13/2004 18:02 Comments ||
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At least three of the men who staged a mysterious attack in Syria's capital were Syrians who had come back from fighting U.S. troops in neighboring Iraq, the Associated Press has learned. A Syrian close to the government, who refused to be further identified, confirmed Arab newspaper reports that they were among Arab volunteers who went to Iraq in the early stages of the war on Saddam Hussein's regime. Two of the gunmen, a policeman and a passer-by died in the April 27 clash with security forces in a diplomatic quarter of Damascus. It was described by the Syrian government a terrorist attack — a rarity in this tightly controlled Arab country.
The source, speaking a few days ago, did not elaborate. But on Tuesday, Syria's prime minister confirmed that the attack was a homegrown, isolated incident, backing away from initial suggestions that international terrorists from abroad were responsible. "It was very limited," Naji al-Otari told reporters, adding that the perpetrators had acted on their own. He did not specify whether the attackers had been in Iraq, but said there was no foreign link. The attackers are said to have detonated a bomb and then engaged in a 90-minute gunbattle with police. An abandoned U.N. building took the brunt of the fighting. Al-Otari did not disclose the attackers' identities or possible motives. But Kuwait's al-Rai al-Aam, the London-based Al Hayat and other Arab newspapers citing unnamed Syrian sources identified three of the attackers as Ayman Shlash, his brother Ahmed and their cousin Mohammed, all of Artouz, about 12 miles south of the capital. It was not clear whether the fourth gunman, also a Syrian, was from Artouz. The papers identified one of the dead as Ayman Shlash, who ran for parliament a year ago as an independent. They did not name the other man killed. They said two suspects, also unnamed, were in custody.
Murhaf Jouejati, an analyst at the Washington-based Middle East Institute, described the incident as a bizarre and "very murky affair." The "unprofessionalism" of the attackers pointed to "some fundamentalist group in Syria taking advantage of the general turmoil in the neighborhood," rather than by al-Qaida or Syria's disenchanted Kurd minority, he said. "But it could be any number of things." The Arab newspaper reports gave few details on the Shlash trio that might offer clues to their motivation. An AP reporter was unable to interview people who might have known them. Residents of Artouz wouldn't talk, though they readily pointed to the Shlash home in the middle of the town. The family's home, a two-story building with a tiny grocery store on the ground floor, appeared largely deserted. One wall was festooned with about a dozen campaign posters featuring a blue-suited Ayman Shlash. Security agents in the neighborhood ordered journalists to leave.
The absence of a detailed official account has fed rumors and conspiracy theories. Some commentators in neighboring Lebanon have even publicly speculated that the attack was fabricated by the Syrian government itself to gain points with Washington, which on Tuesday slapped sanctions on Syria for allegedly supporting terrorism and hindering U.S. efforts in Iraq. Syrian Cabinet minister Bouthayna Shaaban, in an article that appeared in the London-based Asharq al-Awsat daily, angrily dismissed the theory. U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, interviewed last week on the Arab satellite station LBC-Hayat, was asked why Washington has not condemned the attack in Damascus. Rice, whose comments in English were voiced over in Arabic, said: "Every attack must be condemned," but added: "I don't think we fully understand what happened in Syria."
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:01 ||
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#1
hmm - well that should put to rest the notion that they were Kurds. Sounds like Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, who apparently were tight with the Saddamites (per dan darling on WOC)
Unless of course it was stage managed by the Syrians themselves. Of course one wonders how this relates to differences between Syrian Baath and Baby Assad - could be as complex as Saudi?
#2
Word on the street is that Assad staged the attack himself so that he could declare to the world that "Syria, too, was now fighting terrorism."
To the best of my knowledge, there is no difference between Assad and Syrian Baathists.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/13/2004 15:26 Comments ||
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Syrian President Bashar Assad said Thursday the United States had provided no proof to warrant imposing sanctions on his country and added he would not bow to U.S. demands to expel Palestinian militants.
"Nope. Nope. Won't do it. Over my... uhhh... dead body."
Assad disputed the case that the Bush administration had made to impose the embargo, saying Syria does not have weapons of mass destruction and there is no evidence of foreign fighters crossing the border from Syria to Iraq. He said Syria had asked Washington for evidence of infiltration from Syria into Iraq. "We have no response to the request to give us one passport, one name, one evidence of that. So far, we haven't received anything," Assad told a group of American editors.
"Except for the corpses piled up on the border, of course..."
Assad met the editors at the presidential palace while they were on a fact-finding trip arranged by the Washington-based International Reporting Project. President Bush imposed the sanctions Tuesday. They ban all U.S. exports to Syria except food and medicine and they forbid direct flights between Syria and the United States. The penalties came as a response to allegations that Syria was supporting terrorism and undermining U.S. efforts in neighboring Iraq. Bush signed the order under a law that Congress passed by an overwhelming vote late last year. Assad tried to play down the impact of the sanctions. "In fact, we do not have any reaction," he said when first asked about the embargo. "Not because that does not affect us, but we do not know so far how they will affect us." Bilateral trade amounts to US$300 million annually. Syrian officials have said the embargo will have little economic effect. The European Union is ignoring the sanctions and sending a high-level trade delegation to Damascus this weekend. "Syria will continue to live its daily life, but we will continue to be always open" for dialogue, especially on the Middle East and Iraq, the Syrian leader said.
"Until the other shoe drops..."
Syria hosts Palestinian militant groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas which are regarded as terrorist organizations by Israel and the United States. Assad's government regards them as legitimate groups fighting Israel's occupation of Palestinian land. Syria is on the State Department's list of terrorist-sponsoring countries. Assad said Thursday "there are no leaders" of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Syria, only political spokesmen who came to Syria after being expelled by Israel. There was no place for these Palestinians to go to, he added. "If you ask them to go, where could they go?"
South Florida?
Assad said. "They have to go back to their land and Israel could put them in jail ... We don't expel people. They should go back home." The head of Hamas' political bureau, Khaled Mashaal, the group's highest-ranking official, has lived in Damascus since 1999. The leader of Islamic Jihad, Ramadan Abdullah Shallah, moved to Syria in the 1990s.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:52 ||
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#1
Can he reject the sanctions or is this just poor wording by the paper? In any event hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Assad and his meddling in Iraq.
#2
He can reject them all he wants; it has as much effect as pissing into the ocean.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 15:11 Comments ||
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#3
But remember,
urinating in the ocean can raise the temperature, thereby affecting the Gulf Stream, melting the polar ice, freezing England, increasing LA smog, making my socks shrink, blah, blah, blah
#4
Yeah, yeah, Saddam "rejected" our sanctions too. Why in hell would we bother to send "evidence" to someone who knows that they're guilty? Worried that you're next after Saddam, Bashar? Take a number, and send your worthless Sryian pounds to the Committee to Elect John Kerry.
Posted by: Tom ||
05/13/2004 20:05 Comments ||
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#5
Syrian President Bashar Assad said Thursday the United States had provided no proof to warrant imposing sanctions on his country and added he would not bow to U.S. demands to expel Palestinian militants.
There ya go. Assad would not expel Palestian terrorists, i.e., he his giving them safe harbor. GWB said, "You are with us or you are against us." Assad chose window #2 for a JDAM.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 21:29 Comments ||
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Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:12 ||
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#1
If Zarqawi is found and caught alive, he should be put to death as quickly as possible, by as painful a process as possible. Screw prodding him for intelligence. This guy needs to be made an example of.
#2
Zarqawi is an unstable psycopath. If he is the best that Al-qaida has, then the organization is in trouble. Berg murder was a monumental blunder as a strategic terror ploy, as it takes all the PR value generated by the unfortunate Al-Gaib incidents and puts the reality of evil right back in focus.
I would tend to believe that the Marine sucess in Fallujah and the Army accomplishments in Najaf were so impressive that Zarqawi needed a quick shock value action to rally his jihadi. This is no time to cut and run.
Posted by: john ||
05/13/2004 15:33 Comments ||
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For two years now we have been herding the most noxious of jihadist websites out of the USA, then out of Europe, and one by one they ended up being hosted by webserver.com.my, aka Acme Commerce. Many of these sites are clearly linked to the worldâs leading terrorist organizations, most notably Al Qaida and Hamas. And each time another site would take up residence at that one datacenter in Malaysia, people would say to me: "So now what do we do, Aaron?" And all along Iâve said the following: All this does is create a single point of failure. One of these days the Malaysians will want to get out of the business of hosting these sites, and then a whole lot of jihadi webmasters are going be shit out of luck.
Well friends, guess what. Acme Commerce wants out. Iâm happy to let the comments of Mr. Lim of Acme Commerce, to the effect that they were unaware of these sites until now, pass. I would like to give honorable mention to Malaysian opposition leader Lim Kit Siang, who urged Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawiâs government to investigate the possibility that "Malaysia is hosting a master network of international terrorist Web sites." All of these sites were using Acme Commerceâs facilities and were hosted either by Jazzira Net, a possibly London-based Saudi outfit, or by 357hosting of the Netherlands. The latter may have been subleasing server space from Jazzira Net. In the war against terrorist use of the internet, this is a very big moment, and everyone who has contributed to or participated in the pursuit of these sites over the last two years is invited to get up from their seat for a moment and take a bow.
This story is just about to peg the weird-shit-o-meter
Nicholas Berg, the American businessman executed by Islamic extremists in Iraq, may have had contact with accused Sept. 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. FBI agents interviewed Berg a few years ago when they were investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, sources said. He was interviewed because, unbeknownst to him, Moussaoui had used his e-mail account when he was in Oklahoma. DU RoPe-dopers are fired up over various theories that pro-war Nick was a CIA plant who used his familyâs fifth column credentials to embed himself with AQ but got caught. There are many variations.
How clever of the CIA masterminds to send a white Jewish guy into darkest Muslim Iraq under his own name, with an Israeli stamp on his passport, to infiltrate a gang that automatically kills every Jew they get their hands on.
Sources close to the situation told Fox News that they believed the link to be "coincidental." On Tuesday, a video surfaced on an Islamic Web site that showed Berg kneeling in front of five men who had their faces covered. After blasting the U.S. government for the prison abuse scandal at Iraqâs Abu Ghraib prison, one man takes a long knife and decapitates Berg. If theyâd put Charlotte Ravenâs panties over his head, instead of cutting it off, the Arab street would no doubt be seething with rage (So would I, come to think of it). Speaking of Raven, remember Britainâs "vagina bomber," the female terrorist who was allegedly trying to sneak a bomb onto a plane in an area usually not searched? I remarked that we were lucky it wasnât Raven, she could be packing a MOAB and nobody would know it.
Intelligence officials said Thursday that terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was most likely the man who beheaded Berg. The disclosure later Thursday that Berg may have had contact with Moussaoui deepened the mystery of the businessmanâs plight. Berg attended the University of Oklahoma and Moussaoui first settled in Norman, Okla., when he came to the United States. The accused co-conspirator used at least one of the universityâs computers to communicate online, according to the sources. Sources said that the FBI concluded that Berg had innocently given his e-mail account to someone and it had landed in the hands of other people, including Moussaoui. The federal government has vowed to seek Moussaouiâs execution if heâs convicted of participating in a terrorism conspiracy, along with the Sept. 11 hijackers. Moussaouiâs lawyers are seeking to rule out the death penalty. (The Fox News page is loading very slowly, powered no doubt by second-hand SUV batteries scavenged from Karl Roveâs dumpster. DU is worse, their server is plugged in to 12 volt organic solar cells hung from the roof of the unabomberâs Outhouse.)
#1
"This story is just about to peg the weird-shit-o-meter."
No sh*t! I know there are coincidences in the world, but what are the chances?!?
I'm really beginning to think that maybe Berg was a Mossad or somebody's spy!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/13/2004 20:12 Comments ||
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#2
I was thinking before this got posted that the facts fit a theory that Berg was an aspiring AQ operative, who decided the propects for advancement were better in Iraq. Unfortunately for him, AQ decided he was worth more as dead American Jew.
I don't buy he was a CIA or Mossad plant, far too inept for that. His profile seems to fit a Lefty idealist who happened to be a Jew.
#4
Unfortunately, all of this weirdness distracts from our enemies' monstrosity. If the story becomes a bizarre, convoluted, conspiracy story it has less impact than the story of an innocent American having his head sawed off for no reason other than he was an America. Whatever facts turn up, the most important one to take away is that our enemies have wet dreams about cutting off our heads with a knife. Tangent. Does anybody else wonder whether Zarqawi was trying to prove his street cred by doing the wet work himself, especially since whatsisname (damnit! brain freeze) apparently beheaded Danny Pearl personally?
#7
I am not an expert, but I think the CIA prefers to use indigents to do the infiltrating, at least that is what I would do.
You gotta wonder what in the world would Mossad get out of infiltrating Al Qaeda? Limited budgets to me would mean the greatest threat comes from Iran and Hizbollah is the preferred organization you would want to infiltrate. Much higher probability of gaining intel you can use.
BERGâS JOURNEY SPARKED FBI PROBE AND OTHER STRANGE DETAILS
HE was not like anyone else his friends from West Chester had ever known - an adventurous dreamer, a driven idealist, part philosopher and part inventor who was bored with college but could rig together a sophisticated alarm system for his summer camp cabin from aluminum foil and a Walkman. But when 26-year-old Nick Berg walked into the kettle of paranoia and violence that is Iraq, people suddenly didnât see the same guy his buddies from Henderson High knew. Suddenly, Bergâs stubborn wanderlust made him a target of suspicion - a religious Jew riding around Mosul in a taxi with a copy of the Koran. Some U.S. soldiers even wondered if the patriotic Berg was "a wannabe freedom fighter." Who was the real Nick Berg?
The entire world has now seen the shocking way that the idealistic young man from the Philadelphia suburbs died - beheaded on videotape by ruthless terrorists who claimed his slaying was revenge for American prison abuses. But there are still as many questions as answers regarding the way that Berg lived - what exactly he was doing in Iraq, why our allies in Iraqi threw him in jail while the FBI investigated him, and what happened in his final days. With the help of his best friends, Bergâs own e-mails and a Pennsylvania soldier familiar with the details of his detainment in Mosul, the Daily News has pieced together a clearer picture of Bergâs life in Iraq. Some of those details have not been reported before, including:
⢠The FBI apparently conducted a lengthy investigation of Berg in captivity because they were checking out a possible friendship or other tie with an Arab at the University of Oklahoma who was under scrutiny in connection with the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
⢠The source said that in addition to his passport, cash and a laptop, Berg had two books when he was arrested in Mosul on March 24 that aroused suspicion: the Koran and a book that authorities somehow interpreted as "anti-Semitic."
Friends say itâs unlikely that Berg, a practicing Jew, would have carried an anti-Semitic book but that reading the Koran and other local texts was very much in line with his intellectual curiosity.
⢠Berg stubbornly refused American offers of assistance in getting home - including an offer of free airfare, cash and an American escort. He told authorities before his April 6 release that he was eager to get back to work seeking contracts in Iraq, telling U.S. authorities "he was losing thousands of dollars in jail."
The New York Times is reporting this morning that Berg also sent a lengthy e-mail to his family after he was detained. Among the questions asked, he wrote, were: "Why was I in Iraq? Did I ever make a pipe bomb? Why was I in Iran?" The Times said he conjectured that their questions arose from some Farsi literature and a book about Iran that he had. Berg wrote that after four days he was transferred to a cellblock that included prisoners charged with petty offenses and suspected "war criminals."
"Word had spread due to the presence of certain items amongst my stuff that I was Israeli," Berg wrote. "So I felt a bit like Arlo Guthrie walking into a jail full of mother rapers and father stabbers as an accused litterbug." On April 7, the day after he walked out of the Mosul jail on his own terms, he wrote a friend: "Iâm currently trying to pick things up with the business and the local contacts, all of whom think Iâm the biggest flake in the world now, as well as plan my return trip, which has been complicated by... military closures." Three days later, Berg disappeared.
In Iraq, an eccentric young man with his own ideas about life became a kind of Rashoman-like figure - the same person perceived by the various players in radically different ways. His friends insist that Bergâs real story is simpler than it looked - that in the most cynical place on earth, he was merely trying to help. "He was extremely upbeat and optimistic about his work there. He was excited about being able to help," said Tom Clardy, a network analyst in Hershey, Pa., whoâd known Berg since seventh grade. "He wanted to go because he felt he had an obligation to help rebuild the infrastructure."
"He was looking for the real thing," added Jake Vaccaro, another close friend and grad student at the University of North Carolina. "He wanted real experiences, not filtered, secondhand experiences." Bergâs eccentricities were well-known to those who knew him from Chester Countyâs Henderson High, where he built award-winning science projects and was known for his keen sense of humor. Luke Lorenz, 28, a close friend and now a grad student at Penn State, has saved a message from Berg on his answering machine. "What he said was, âLuke, I just had this vision. I had this idea. I wanted to run it by you but I donât have a lot of time. Iâve gotta go check out some Roman mythology.â "
In college, Bergâs restlessness almost got the better of him. He attended Cornell, Drexel, even the University of Oklahoma, but never earned his bachelorâs degree. Lorenz was at Lock Haven University in upstate Pennsylvania. "When he was in Cornell he started having wanderlust and he would ride his bike from Cornell toward Lock Haven, which is about 130 miles and Iâd usually pick him up at Williamsport so heâd make it 100 miles," he recalled. "I remember it was actually weighing on him, what he wanted to do. He had this idea to go to Africa and help people there. He just wasnât getting things accomplished in college." So Berg went to Uganda. "He was working with designing bricks -which are called stabilized soil," Lorenz said. Berg returned much thinner and told friends heâd given a lot of his food away.
His next venture was Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., which builds, maintains and inspects communications towers. He ran the business out of a farm in Lancaster County owned by his foreman, Scott Hollinger. Berg - listening to news or hard rock like Led Zeppelin while shunning TV - typically worked some 60 to 70 hours a week. "Nick was a worker. That was his life. He didnât have a girlfriend. He loved to work," Hollinger said. "He loved to climb towers. He was passionate about climbing anything. He and his dad would go rock climbing. Thereâs freedom up there. No one is breathing down your neck." The difficult job also played into Bergâs sense of risk. "He was all about adventure," Hollinger said. "We would drive six hours to a job and on the way, heâd see cable towers or telephone poles and heâd say, âWeâve got to pull over.â " Then the two would hop out of the car and climb the towers. Berg would often impersonate Arnold Schwarzenegger. "Heâd say, âJust do it. Climb it.â " Often, when he climbed a tower, heâd hang an American flag on top. Very religious, he also often wore a yarmulke, even under his hard hat.
Berg also believed strongly in the American mission in Iraq, and last fall he started studying business opportunities there. With a limited knowledge of Arabic and with a distant relative - possibly an uncle by marriage - living in Mosul, Berg spent January and February in Iraq and then returned for a second time in March. He inspected radio towers that had been struck by helicopters during the war, and worked near the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in an ominous case of foreshadowing. He traveled through the dangerous Iraqi countryside but rarely conveyed his concerns to his friends in his frequent e-mails. "My presence near Moffak [his relative] has made him more concerned (about his own safety and probably mine too) than Iâve been the entire time Iâve been here," he wrote his friend Dave Skalish, an engineer at WPHT (1210-AM) here in Philadelphia, in January. "Mosul is very calm - except for the checkpoints, you canât really tell there is an occupation."
But Berg might have been slow to realize by his second visit that things had deteriorated in Iraq. On March 24, Berg was arrested while riding in a taxi in downtown Mosul. The military source in Iraq, who spoke with the Daily News by telephone, said he was jailed because unescorted Americans arenât usually seen downtown and "they didnât know what to do with him." He said police were suspicious because of "his demeanor," and authorities also wanted to know why he had the Koran and a book that the source said may have been called "The Jewish Problem" or "The Jewish Solution." Hollinger said it wouldnât be surprising that Berg was found with the Koran and various books in Iraq. "It would have surprised me if he wasnât studying up on the culture of that land," he said. "He was an avid reader. He always did his homework and wanted to learn about the culture of the country he was in."
The source said itâs unclear exactly why Berg spent close to two weeks in jail. Although he insisted that Berg was under Iraqi control, the FBI also questioned Berg three times and visited his parents back in West Chester. "Heâd made some contact with Arab kids at the University of Oklahoma - thatâs what the FBI was checking into...a guy from Oklahoma," the source said. He said the FBI wanted to know if the Oklahoma connection was "why he came over here." He said the Oklahoma contact was "related to somebody who was involved in 9/11." But he didnât know if that person was jailed al Qaeda supporter Zacarias Moussaoui, who attended the University of Oklahoma close to when Berg was there in 2000. Hollinger said he knew Berg had attended the University of Oklahoma and made friends with some Arabs or Muslims. He made friends with people from every culture and religion. "He told me there was some type of identity mixup - either with ID or e-mails, something along those lines," Hollinger said. "He said he was contacted by some prominent officials."
On April 6, after Bergâs parents filed suit seeking his release, he was visited in jail by an American delegation that took him aside in a small room. "He refused to accept any money to go home," the source said. "He refused to accept an airplane ticket. He refused any escort. "He didnât want us. He said, âYou donât understand these people like I do. Youâre here for a reason - and so am I.â " His friends say that while he was in jail, Berg had no way of knowing that four American contractors had been burned and hanged from a bridge in Fallujah, or that the situation in Iraq was sliding downhill. "I donât think he understood the gravity of the situation because he was in prison and didnât know what was going on outside," Hollinger said.
After his release, Berg went to a Baghdad hotel and decided he would try to come home after all. But he still wanted to do things his own way - spurning an offer from U.S. consular officials for help in leaving from Jordan. He said he would leave from Kuwait - but never got there. "So he believed in people," Lorenz said, "and thatâs one of the sad things about this whole situation because people are using this video to incite more anger."
#1
so many strange issues - he carries Farsi language books, but wants to learn to speak Arabic? Either this was a strange confused guy with a lot of interests and travels, or there's a lot more to this story. Regardless, his Dad's an unmitigated asshole and a irredeemable idiot
/rant
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 19:28 Comments ||
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#2
[sarcasm on, setting high] Clearly, the hooded men in the video were Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Ashcroft. No other explanation makes any sense. [sarcasm off] How the Dad can place blame on Bush in light of the facts laid out here is beyond moonbattery (what comes after moonbat status?).
#3
What led him to Iraq? Well, from this account and the account of his father's idiotic behavior today, I'd say it was a little dose of youthful adventurousness and a WHOPPING huge dose of liberal cluelessness.
What the fuck do these people think, anyway? That the world would be just like it on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood if it weren't for those terrible Republicans? Did he think Iraq would be just like Sesame Street or Teletubbies?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/13/2004 19:46 Comments ||
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#4
I read elsewhere today that he had an Israeli stamp in his passport. Anyone who has traveled in the Middle East knows that that gets you nothing but trouble -- businessmen typically get a second passport for travel in the Arab world. And he visited Iran too? He was, at best, a foolish traveler. I'm not big into conspiracy theories, but I smell more to this story.
Posted by: Tom ||
05/13/2004 21:21 Comments ||
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#5
Somebody's out there planting stuff.
I can't believe that the reporters could turn up all of this in less than 24 hours "unassisted." It'd be interesting to know who "the source" quoted in the second bullet point is, and how much of this article is based on his information.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/14/2004 0:36 Comments ||
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#6
I'm a Muslim and I feel very sorry over Berg's murder. 59% of all Clinton appointment were Jews (who comprise between 2.2% to 2.9% of the US population) to the highest posts of the federal bureaucracy, which has since 1999 blurred as to who is behind what. Berg incident took place at the height of Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Could it be that his killing was engineered to over-shadow the scandal? Now, I leave you with Clinton's 104 Jew appointments: Adler, Karen - Director State Department Policy
Adler, Karen - Liaison to Jewish Community
Albright, Madeleine - Secretary of State
Alexander, Jane - Director National Endowment of Arts
Apfel, Richard - Chief of Social Security
Barshefsky, Charlene - U.S. Trade Representative
Berger, Samuel - Head of National Security Council
Blinder, Allan - Vice Chairman of Federal Reserve
Blumenthal, Sidney - Special Advisor to First Lady
Boorstine, Robert - Communications Aide
Boskin, Stanley - Economic Policy Advisor
Boykin, Keith - Communication Aide
Brandenburg, Bert - Justice Department Spokesman
Breuer, Lanny P. - Special Counsel to the President
Breyer, Stephen - Supreme Court Justice
Bromwich, Mike - Inspector General FBI
Browner, Carol M. - Heads the Environmental Protection Agency
Cohen, David - CIA Director of Operations
Cohen, William - Secretary of Defense
Davidow, Jeffrey - Secretary of State for South America Affairs
Davis, Lenny - White House Special Counsel
Dellinger, Walter - Deputy Attorney General
Dimond, Paul - Head Economic Policy
Eisenstat, Stuart - Under Secretary of Treasury
Eisner, Hal - Director of Bureau of Intelligence
Eller, Jeffrey - Director of Media Affairs
Epstein, Thomas - National Health Care Advisor
Feder, Judith - Assistant Secretary of Health
Feinberg, Richard - Assistant Secretary of Veterans Affairs
Footlik, Jay - Special Liaison to Jewish Community
Ginsburg, Ruth Bader - Supreme Court Justice
Glickman, Dan - Secretary of Agriculture
Gober, Hershel - Assistant Secretary for Veterans Affairs
Gober, Hershel - Deputy Head of Food & Drug Administration
Greenberg, Stanley - Presidential Pollster
Greenspan, Alan - Chairman, Federal Reserve Secretary of State
Greenwald, Mandy - Press Conference Advisor
Haas, Ellen - Assistant Secretary of Education
Hamburg, Margaret - Director of Press Conferences
Hoibrooke, Fred - Department of Small Business Administration
Holbrooke, Richard - U.N. Ambassador Nominee
Holbrooke, Richard - Special Representative to NATO
Indyk, Martin - Middle-East Peace Negotiator
Katzen, Sally - Secretary of Management and Budget
Kessler, Steve - Comm. Food & Drug Adm.
Kessler, David - Chief of Food & Drug Administration
Kessler, Steve - White House Counsel
Klain, Ron - Chief of Staff for Vice President, Al Gore
Klein, Joel - Assistant Attorney General
Klein, Ron - Assistant Secretary of Education
Koch, Kathleen - Heads FBI Equal Opportunity Office
Koplovitz, Kay - Advisor Small Business Administration
Koza, Michael - National Foreign U.S. Interests Head
Kristoff, Sandy - Health Care Chief
Lehman, Bruce - Head, U.S. Patent Office
Levitt, Arthur - Chair Securities & Exchange
Lew, Jack - Dep. Dir. Management & Budget
Lewis, Samuel - Director State Department Policy
Liberman, Evelyn - Head Voice of America Radio
Lipton, David - Under Secretary of the Treasury
Ludwig, Eugene - Director of the Mint
Magaziner, Ira - Head National Health Care Policy
Miller, Aaron - Deputy Middle-East Peace Negotiator
Nash, Robert - Presidential Personal Chief
Neuwirth, Stephan - Association Counsel to President
Penn, Mark - Asian Expert on Security Council
Penn, Mark - Presidential Pollster
Pltofsky, Robert - Chairman Federal Trade Comm.
Podesta, John - Chief Assistant to President
Pollack, Ron - Director, Families USA
Pollack, Ken - Iraq Office National Security Council
Rabbi Emanuel Rahm - Director Communications
Radd, Victoria - Deputy Assistant to President
Rahm, Emanuel - Presidential Policy Advisor
Riedel, Bruce - South Asia Office NEC
Rivlin, Alice - Director Management of Budget
Rominger, Richard - Assistant Secretary of Agriculture
Ross, Dennis - Special Middle East Representative
Ross, Martin - Middle-East Peace Negotiator
Ross, Stanley - Member National Security Council
Roth, Stanley - Assistant Secretary of State
Rubin, James P. - Under Secretary of State
Scher, Peter - U.S. Trade Representative
Eli Segal - Deputy Chief of Staff
Shapiro, Howard - General Counsel (Lawyer) for the FBI
Shapiro, Ira - Assistant U.S. Trade Representative
Sherburne, Jane - White House Counsel
Sidney Blumenthal - Special Advisor to First Lady
Silverman, Stephan - Secretary of the Cabinet
Slotkin, Nora - Equal Opportunity Department CIA
Soils, Patricia - Director Scheduling to Hillary
Sosnik, Doug - Counsel to President
Sperling, Gene - Head National Economic Council
Steinberg, Jim - Deputy National Security Council
Stiglitz, Joseph - Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers
Summers, Lawrence (TLC, Bilderburger) - Secretary of the Treasury
Tarnoff, Peter - Deputy Secretary of State
Tenet, George - CIA Chief
Thomases, Susan - Chief Aid to First Lady
Waxman, Seth - Acting Solicitor General
Weidenfeller, Nancy - Office Quality Management
Weiner, Robert - Drug Policy Coordinator
Yellen, Jannet - Head Council of Economic Advisors
Yellen, Janet - On Board of Economic Council
#7
I'm a Muslim and I feel very sorry over Berg's murder. 59% of all Clinton appointment were Jews
Very interesting. How long have you felt this way?
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/16/2004 17:32 Comments ||
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#8
This is America and we can appoint all the Jews we want to government!
(Our government is secular and doesn't look at a person's religion as a discriminating factor.)
That you Muslims have a problem with that is part of why we're fighting this war, Anon 4869.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/16/2004 17:38 Comments ||
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#9
What the hell? Not another Zionist(TM) conspiracy. My, my, you Arabs are very good at finding them; maybe they're just making it too easy for you. Or maybe they're just trying to distract you from their real goal . . .
Seriously, 4869, what do Clinton's appointments have to do with anything? Check the archives for some of the commentaries I've made on Arab conspiracy theories. The thing is, in the United States, we don't discriminate on the basis of religion. So you just may see Jews and Christians and Hindus and Buddhists and even Muslims in our government.
As for Berg, no decent human being deserves what happened to him (a lot of Muslims have shown themselves not to fall into that category, I fear, but never fear 4869, I am refering to the ones whose actions we see every day on the TV, not to the handful of decent Muslims - well, one family - that I actually know). Maybe a lot of the people on the Left certainly do, but we won't go into that. Fact is, wanderlust and being both optimistic and dense do not go hand-in-hand. He may have traveled, but he didn't learn.
We do need to learn about other cultures. That's the only way we can integrate a diversity that works for all. But they need to learn from us. If it isn't a two-way street, someone's going to vanish.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/16/2004 17:42 Comments ||
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EFL
The father of Nick Berg, the American beheaded in Iraq, directly blamed President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Thursday for his sonâs death. "My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Berg said in an interview with radio station KYW-AM. Now this moonbat may be in mourning, but his attempt to use his sonâs tragic death for political edge deserves the STFU that Iâm giving him...Al-Qaeda and their friends cut his throat, and you helped, sir
In the interview from outside his home in West Chester, Pennsylvania, a seething Michael Berg also said his 26-year-old son, a civilian contractor, probably would have felt positive, even about his executioners, until the last minute. "I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," Berg said. "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."
Two days after the publication of a video showing the execution of his son by five masked men, Berg attacked the Bush administration for its invasion of Iraq and its sponsorship of the Patriot Act, which gives sweeping powers of surveillance to the federal government. Berg described the Patriot Act as a "coup dâetat." He added: "Itâs not the same America I grew up in."
The criticism came amid finger-pointing between Bergâs family, U.S. military officials and Iraqi police over the young businessmanâs imprisonment before his execution. Michael Berg rejected U.S. government claims that his son had never been held by American authorities in Iraq. The Iraqi police chief in the city of Mosul has also contradicted statements by the U.S.-led coalition concerning the younger Bergâs detention
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 6:26:20 PM ||
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#1
Al-Reuters of course leaves out the fact that the US advised Nick Berg to return home--advice he disregarded. I feel for this father. He must be devestated. But he is engaged in the same fallacy his son's butchers were: blaming/punishing someone who had nothing to do with the offense you are seeking to avenge. Unbelievable.
"They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."
He just lost any sympathy I had for him. He actually believes his dead son was, or would have been, best friends with Al Qaeda. He actually uses his dead son to attack the President, who had nothing to do with his son's murder. He actually says the murdering scum terrorist who cut off his living son's head didn't know what he was doing.
Jeezus Christ, asshole, get a clue! That same scum you're defending will murder you and all your family if he gets the chance. And he's looking for that chance.
Berg described the Patriot Act as a "coup dâetat."
Gee, I guess my French is worse that I thought. I could have sworn "coup d'etat" meant something besides "voted in by a majority of both houses of Congress."
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 18:41 Comments ||
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#3
"Itâs not the same America I grew up in."
No shit Sherlock. 9-11 wasn't enough of a clue? Let's hope he's in his anger stage and comes to his senses later.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/13/2004 18:49 Comments ||
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#4
Doubtful, Rafael. He sounds lefty enough that he never had any sense to begin with.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 18:57 Comments ||
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#5
true, but be prepared for the DU crowd and Air Amerikkka mini-crowd to make use of this guy's anger, similar to the 9-11 wives.... politics is all, damn the consequences
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 19:04 Comments ||
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#6
Folks, look upon the Suicidal Left. They so hate this country, that they would gladly seen it torn down even though it would likely mean their own death. And now the movement has a face and it's Michael Berg. I have to agree with Barbara here....the stakes are too high. I have no time to sympathize with a sniveling moonbat that would gladly see us all dead or converted just to satisfy is his own twisted hate.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/13/2004 19:10 Comments ||
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#7
Air Amerikkka mini-crowd. Nicely done Frank G. I would imagine their audience is shrinking as fast their advertiser list.
Posted by: Scott ||
05/13/2004 19:12 Comments ||
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#8
Instead of using his son's death as a springboard for good, Dad lets his son's murder become a tool for the hate-Bush crowd. His son's death will be in vain if it is used for this political BS. That would be a shame, because he seemed like a decent chap.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 19:22 Comments ||
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#9
"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld." Now where have I heard this line before???? Oh yeah, THE BIBLE! I am seeing some similarities between Nick and Jesus: Both Jewish, professionals (Carpenter/Electrician), and both executed brutally. Coming to the theatre this summer: âPassions of the Nickâ âa Mike Moore film. Not to poke fun but his Dad needs to direct his anger at the right people and they are the Islamofacists not the U.S. Government!
#10
Ironic, that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated precisely because Osama bin Laden believed that all Americans were just like Michael Berg, and that we'd respond to the attacks by running from the Arab world with our tails between our legs like we did in 1993 in Somalia.
And this idiot's display today will give jihadis everywhere hope and encouragement that they may yet prevail, if only they can sever enough American heads.
I have no sympathy for this asshole.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/13/2004 19:39 Comments ||
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#11
"I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," Berg said. "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."
If Nick could see the good in his captors, he had better eyesight than I.
If his father can't see the Evil in his son's captors, he is blinder than Mr. Magoo.
#13
On the positive side, a new generation of Americans are wiser and able to see the big picture better than the old. At least in this case. His father pisses on all Nick believed for the sake of politics. Nick was pro-active while his father is still just an old whiner.
No sympathy for that.
#14
Of course this is the only way Mr. Berg can get any camera time at all, if he had come out and said he was still a Bush supporter, the press would have buried this story faster than Oprah can bury a dozen Krispy Kremes in her gaping maw.
The spin cycle is on so high at this point you cant hear anything out of the press except the fact that this entire load is off balance.
Posted by: Frank Martin ||
05/13/2004 20:35 Comments ||
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#15
The spin cycle is on so high at this point you cant hear anything out of the press except the fact that this entire load is off balance.
The founder and former leader of Algeria's largest Muslim group, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), was executed last year by his former aides, L'Expression newspaper reported Tuesday. Hassan Hattab was killed in the northeastern Kabylie region after being tried and found guilty of "treason and heresy" by his former right-hand men, who then took control of the GSPC, wrote the newspaper. "With my own eyes, I saw him dead, lying in a pool of blood, killed after being shot several times in the head and chest at point-blank range," L'Expression quoted a former GSPC member, who has since quit the group, as saying.
"Then we mutilated the body and jumped up and down on the pieces. That's 'cuz we're devout Muslims..."
The GSPC, which has said it is opposed to the killing of civilians, the main victims of the civil war, has become Algeria's best structured and largest insurgency, but like the GIA, it has rejected national reconciliation overtures from President Abdelaziz Bouteflika's government.
That's because, unlike the GIA, it's not virtually wiped out...
Hattab's enemies within the GSPC, including the group's second-in-command, Amari Saifi, better known as Abderrezak the Para, and his successor at the head of the group, Nabil Sahraoui, reproached him for having "negotiated with the Algerian authorities," L'Expression said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:43:57 PM ||
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Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC)
Geez - Maybe these folks are progressing further than we think. All those acronyms.
Salafast? I thought that was one of those hand vegetable shredding machines advertised on the Discovery channel after midnight.
"With my own eyes, I saw him dead, lying in a pool of blood, killed after being shot several times in the head and chest at point-blank range,"
And - the unrecorded part of the quote
It is true, unless he rises from the dead he is truly dead, sincerely dead, food for worms.
Here's some possible groups names.
Australopithecae Group for Gratiuitous Decapitations (GGDA)
#2
Rats. The RB search engine is still down (fie on you, trolls!). As I recall, we had a fine ol' ululating party when Hattab shuffled off this mortal coil...
#3
Nope. You're thinking of Khattab, in Chechnya. We were cheated on Hattab. The report last October said he was "deposed."
When I think of "deposed," I think of "Get the hell out, we don't like you anymore!" I guess when they think of "deposed," they think in terms of "Mahmoud, shoot him!"
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 21:08 Comments ||
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#4
I like when they turn on their own
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 21:43 Comments ||
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At least 60 people have died in the latest fighting in the capital, Mogadishu, which has continued to rage for a fourth day, with hundreds wounded, and thousands displaced, local sources told IRIN on Thursday.
One of the bloodiest episodes of fighting in the city in the last few years erupted on Sunday morning after a disagreement between two militias of the same clan who are loyal to two business people. It involved forces guarding a hotel in the northern district of Behani, and those loyal to a local businessman from the Warsangeli clan, which reportedly attacked the hotel, the property of a businesswoman from the Wabudan clan.
The fighting died down on Wednesday afternoon, but "resumed with a vengeance at 07:30 local time [04:30 GMT] today", a local journalist told IRIN on Thursday. "It is now concentrated in the Lido beach area [north Mogadishu]". "There is a fierce battle raging, with both sides using heavy weapons." he added. "It is the most intense since Sunday [when the fighting started]"
When the fighting subsided on Wednesday, the number of wounded in the various hospitals stood at "over 200", said a local doctor involved in compiling the data. Most of the wounded were taken to the privately owned Al-Hayat, Arafaat, Medina and Keysaney hospitals, he said. "Most of those in the hospitals are civilians, mostly women and children," he told IRIN, noting that "more people are probably affected" who never made it to a hospital.
Meanwhile, a Mogadishu-based human rights group has condemned the violence. "We have called on both sides to stop these indiscriminate attacks on unarmed civilians," Marian Awreye, Director, of the Isma'il Human Rights Centre (IHRC] told IRIN. "Those suffering the most are noncombatants."
Another "major problem" was the displacement of thousands of people from their homes: Entire districts in the city had been emptied by the fighting, Marian told IRIN on Thursday. "Behani, Abdul'aziz, Shibis, Shangani and Bondere districts are almost empty. The intensity of the fighting is such that people as far as five to seven kilometres away are leaving their homes because of the danger of stray bullets, mortar bombs and artillery shells," she said.
She said many of the displaced had had to move several times in the last four days. "They run away from one area, the fighting catches up with them, and then they move again." Many of the displaced were still on the move, she noted.
The fighting groups were also perpetrating serious human rights violations against the civilian population, Marian said, stressing that "as usual, no group cares for the protection of the civilian population".
She said the (IHRC) estimated that apart from at least 60 people killed, over 250 had been wounded in the past four days. "We are disappointed at the lack response from the international community," she said. "Someone has to hold these people [fighting groups] accountable for their actions. They have signed ceasefires and repeatedly violated them without penalty."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:38:37 PM ||
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A Chechen militant suspected of transporting weapons and explosives used in the Dubrovka theater siege and the McDonaldâs bombing in Moscow in 2002 has been detained in Grozny, Interfax reported, citing law enforcement authorities in Chechnya. The militant, identified as Grozny resident Ibragim Musayev, has been involved in illegal militant groups fighting federal forces in Chechnya since 1999. He made money transfers to militants planning terrorist activities. Police are currently determining whether he was involved in Sundayâs bombing in Grozny that killed Chechen President Akhmad Kadyrov. Police and search units have been trying to locate him for some time, the news agency quoted a local interior ministry press center as saying. An investigation is currently underway to identify his accomplices.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:37:48 PM ||
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An investigation is currently underway to identify his accomplices.
The head of the Criminal Police of the Shali District Directorate of the Interior Ministry, Khussein Khakayev, has been shot dead in Chechnya, the Interfax news agency reports. The head of the Shali district administration, Sharip Alikhadjayev, told the agency that Khakhayev, together with his relative Musa Dishnayev, was returning home from work at about 22:00 local time on Wednesday when three gunmen in camouflage fatigues fired at them with automatic weapons. âThis happened in the town of Shali on Groznenskaya Street, near the mosque. Khakhayev sustained numerous gunshot wounds and died on the way to hospital,â the district official said. The other victim of the attack, Dishnayev, was taken to hospital in grave condition, he said. This was not the first attack on law enforcers in Shali over the past months. In early April the battalion commander of the special police force, Khamid Khadjiyev, was shot dead near his home when returning from work.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:26:43 PM ||
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REVIEWING the crisis in Plateau State, Gov. Joshua Dariye said yesterday that there is an "Al-Qaeda agenda" designed to bring down his administration and the Federal Government. He restated that his government's concern is the restoration of peace to Yelwa-Shendam. Also, President Olusegun Obasanjo yesterday vowed to find a solution to the communal crisis.
More shariah. That oughta fix things...
The lingering violence in the state got mired in fresh controversy as the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) in the state rejected Emir of Zaria, Alhaji Shehu Idris, as chairman of the Presidential Peace Initiative Committee. Governor Dariye in a telephone interview with State House correspondents, expressed deep sadness at the crisis, saying "this is a grand design, it's an Al-Qaeda agenda to bring down Plateau State and bring down Nigeria. Men of goodwill must resist this attempt."
Couldn't possibly be the local nutbags...
The governor further disowned the Council of Ulama, who visited President Obasanjo at the State House, Abuja on Tuesday over the crisis. He said the group was not representing the voice of moslems in the state. The group, he said, was not the JNI which he said was the true umbrella body for northern moslems. Aside, he alleged that the group was declared as the brain behind the Maitasine riot in 1978 and subsequently sent out of Kaduna, querying that "if they were so good, why were they sent out of Kaduna. They came to form their headquarters in Jos. Is it because we tolerate them? Now they want to turn it into an agenda. We would not accept that agenda." He explained that both Christians and Muslims had been living peacefully over the years, even as he said Yelwa-Shendam has more indigenous moslems than even Hausa Fulani. The latter, he noted, was less than 10 per cent. Governor Dariye urged the media and President Obasanjo to see happenings in the state and Tuesday's crisis in Kano as very serious issues. "Because they know that Plateau is a miniature Nigeria, they couldn't capture Plateau by Jihad. So, let us use political uprising, let us use religion," he stated.
Receiving the report of the Peace Initiative Committee submitted by the committee chairman and Emir of Zazzau, Alhaji Idris, Plateau Obasanjo pledged to "find a solution that works" to the crisis. "We can't have a situation where a part of the country has become a sore, a source of instability and insecurity," regretting that efforts to restore peace to the area had not yielded much.
Thanking the committee for a job well done, he said government would "study the report and act on it." Earlier, Alhaji Idris had revealed that factors such as indigeneship, land administration, chieftaincy matters, mutual suspicion and other disagreements arising from social interaction between the communities were the remote causes of the conflict.
They usually are. The opposing gangs of thugs usually line up along religious lines, though...
Members of the committee who accompanied Alhaji Idris, include the Gbong Gwon Jos, Da Victor Pam, Phonzi Tarok, Edward Zyattau, Emir of Wase, Alhaji Haliru Abdullahi, Rehna of Bashar and Alhaji Adamu Idris. The rest were president, Church of Christ in Nigeria (COCIN), Rev. Alexandar Lar, state secretary, Miyetti Allah Association, Alhaji Salisu Musa Umar, Sheikh Khalid Aliyu Abubakar of JNI, Alhaji Alhassan Shuaibu, a commissioner in the Niger Delta Development Commission (NDDC). Secretary to the State Government (SSG), Nde John Gobak served as the secretary. The CAN, in rejecting the Emir, said the Sarkin Zazzau is an interested party, but Plateau State-born christian and Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Jonah Wuyep defers. He believes that the Emir was a proper and fit national personality to head the committee. In the wave of renewed communal skirmishes in Shendam local government area of the state where some 67 people died last week, President Olusegun Obasanjo had dispatched 600 policemen to the area and the constitution of a peace committee. Obasanjo named Emir of Zaria, Mai Martaba Shehu Idris to head the committee which the Christian Association now says is misplaced judgement. The President was expected in Jos today (Thursday) to assess progress of the various measures put in place for the return of peace, but the state CAN says that the Emir is a mentor of the Emir of Wase whom the christians accuse of incubating the crisis.
The state chairman and president of CAN, Revds. Yakubu Pam and Bako Wuyep, respectively, say that Emir Idris's leadership of the peace committee "is totally unacceptable. "The Christian Association of Nigeria is not only opposed to the appointment but we also call on President Obasanjo to have him changed." Their joint position was recorded in a document on "The Recent Religious Crisis in Plateau State," ahead of President Obasanjo's visit. CAN, which traced religious crisis in the state over the past 100 years, allege that muslims were desperate to take over the state (especially the capital, Jos), which they say is the capital of the "minority north" and the Middle Belt. "Since the late 18th century and throughout the 19th century to the 20th century, the struggle to capture Jos, the capital of Plateau State and the Middle Belt, has always been on the muslim far-north.
But, both the Council of Ulama and the Elders of the Jamatu'l Nasirl Islam (JNI), parallel central Islamic groups in the state, have debunked all the charges. And Marshal Wuyep told the Daily Champion in Jos that Emir Idris was a proper and fit national personality to head the peace committee. He said he had worked with the distinguished monarch of Zaria on other peace panels and that HRH Alhaji Idris proved very effective and able. Nevertheless, Gov. Dariye has said the core of efforts on the matter is to return peace to the area quickly. He pledged to raise a high-powered judicial enquiry to unravel the roots of the sectarian violence.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:09:54 PM ||
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Nigerian governor fingers al-Qaeda in recent violence
Anybody got any pictures of this? Might be nice if someone else has to put up with this international condemnation bullshit for awhile.
Acting Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal President Qazi Hussain Ahmed has protested over the killing of four alliance workers in Karachi, allegedly by Muttahida Qaumi Movement workers. Addressing a press conference here on Wednesday, Mr Ahmed said after the killings he had spoken to PML President Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, but he was unaware of the incident, while Prime Minister Zafarullah Jamali said he welcomed it had just heard the news and was going to inquire about it. Mr Ahmed said those killed included three Jamaat-e-Islami workers and one Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam-Fazl worker. He said 25 JI workers and MNA Laeeq Khan were injured. He said Rangers personnel âlaid siegeâ to a polling station in which women workers were trapped and arrested over 500 party activists.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 15:11 ||
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#1
remind me MQM are the shiites, no? and what "rangers" is he talking about?
#2
MQM is Muslims who left India to live in the Promised Land. The Rangers are paramilitary cops. Qazi doesn't bitch as much when the deaders are MQM. Both parties use approximately the same tactics. I believe MQM gets thumped outside Karachi.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 20:21 Comments ||
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A fresh batch of 959 Iraqi police cadets graduated from a US-led training course in Jordan and prepared to return home to face a "critical" security situation. "Iraq is currently facing a critical situation, particularly on the security level and that is why the concerned parties are ... building a capable security force to implement the law," Iraqi Police General Talib al-Hamdani said Thursday at the graduation ceremony. Hundreds of members of the new Iraqi police force have been killed during the US-led occupation and the forces have complained that they lack equipment -- radios, flak jackets, heavy weapons -- to confront well-armed insurgents.
Speaking to representatives of the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Iraq, Jordanian police officials and Western diplomats, Hamdani insisted the new police force will not be politicised. CPA representative Steven Casteel told the recruits they will play a key role in developing a "free and new Iraq." Thursday's graduates were the fourth and largest group to complete the eight-week programme launched late last year.
Jordan has agreed to train 32,000 Iraqi police over the next two years to help rebuild its war-torn eastern neighbour. It is also training Iraqi military personnel. So far 2,859 Iraqi police cadets have completed the training course taught by Jordanian and international instructors. The course is given at the Jordan International Police Training Center on the windswept plains of Moaqar southeast of Amman and includes classes in international law, human rights, riot control and English. Washington has earmarked around one billion dollars this year to build from scratch an Iraqi police force, expected to total 85,000. To complement the police in Iraq's 18 provinces, the coalition has also established a 15,000-strong paramilitary Iraqi Civil Defense Corps.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 3:05:08 PM ||
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For one Arab living on the West Bank, the beheading of an American hostage in Iraq was a justified response to the treatment meted out to Iraqi prisoners by US troops. His view on the execution was echoed by many Arabs but others in the region called it barbaric and against the teachings of Islam.
âThis was a justified retaliation. The Americans had committed very ugly actions against the Iraqi people in general and Iraqi prisoners in particular,â said Mohammed AlBargouti, a 24-year-old security guard in the West Bank city of Ramallah. An Islamist Web site on Tuesday carried a video clip of the beheading, with a statement saying a group linked to Al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by US troops. Several Islamist Web sites carried links to the tape and pictures of Berg before and after the execution. The video tape carried a statement said to be from Al Qaedaâs leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who said Bergâs killing was in reprisal for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners and ridiculed Muslim leaders for their failure to free Iraq.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 15:09 ||
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#1
screw them - do not care what they think - there whole society and religion is bankrupt....
Posted by: Dan ||
05/13/2004 15:19 Comments ||
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âThis was a justified retaliation. The Americans had committed very ugly actions against the Iraqi people in general and Iraqi prisoners in particular,â said Mohammed AlBargouti, a 24-year-old security guard in the West Bank city of Ramallah.
If I were Mr al-Bargouti, I'd be careful at the sound of helicopters. There may be a missile with his name on it. Allah Akhbar, baby!
Peshawar: The Criminal Investigation Department (CID) found a large arms cache in the houses of two Afghans arrested earlier this month for planning the assassination of two high profile political and religious figures. CID Additional Inspector General (AIG) Sajid Ali Khan told reporters on Wednesday that suspects Ahmad Shah, alias Allah Noor, and Wasif, alias Qaadir, alias Lefty revealed the addresses of their houses in Tajabad. Police raided the houses on Tuesday night and found three Kalashnikovs, 19 hand grenades and 140 rounds. He said the CID did not know the address of the third suspect, Rozi Khan. AIG Khan said the CID also found a one-page letter written in Persian that they suspected contained information about the groupâs plans. The letter has not been translated yet. He said the accomplices of the accused were still at large. The arrested gang had received Rs 4 million to assassinate the chiefs of two religious political parties, said Mr Khan.
I wonder which religious parties? And who they got the dough from?
He said the gang was wanted for more than 120 murders, robberies and rapes. He said the gang was also suspected in last monthâs rocket attack on the CID police station. staff report.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 15:07 ||
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Terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was most likely the man who beheaded Nicholas Berg, the American citizen whose execution was captured on videotape and shown on an Islamic Web site, U.S. intelligence and military officials said Thursday. Despite the poor quality of the digitized audio and video of the tape that has been circulating since it first appeared Tuesday, officials said an initial technical analysis concluded that there was a "high probability" Berg's killer was the notorious al-Zarqawi.
A more detailed study of the videotape is being done, intelligence officials said. "All indications are that is the case," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez (search), the No. 2 U.S. military leader in Iraq. Asked whether he meant Zarqawi personally carried out the execution, Sanchez said, "All indications are he did it." Asked about Zarqawi's whereabouts, the general said, "We believe he's moving around the country." The person shown speaking in the video â determined to be al-Zarqawi â wears a head scarf and a ski mask and is then shown on the video decapitating Berg, the official said. The speaker reads a lengthy statement criticizing Islamic scholars and taunting the crusaders. Standing alongside four other militants wearing head scarves and masks to disguise themselves, al-Zarqawi then kills Berg.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/13/2004 2:59:22 PM ||
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#1
Ok so Zarq was in Fallujah till a couple of weeks ago. Then we was in Baghdad. One hopes it will soon become easier to track him.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:18 ||
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#1
what does Somalia export besides Cabdrivers and Qhat?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 14:49 Comments ||
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The fighting erupted on Monday afternoon after a lone gunmen opened fire on a passing motorist near the capitalâs Global Hotel, prompting the hotelâs guards to fire back.
Posted by: john ||
05/13/2004 15:19 Comments ||
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#5
Y'know, if he is really so insistent on becoming a martyr, as he says every time a microphone appears, it really isn't that difficult. I think what is really going on is more like this:
Mamhoud: Imam! The Americans are killing the Mehdi Army in the streets!
Moqtada: Go, then, and fight--become a martyr for Allah! Bring me a twinkie before you go though.
US soldiers backed by tanks and helicopters battled fighters loyal to a radical cleric near a mosque in Karbala Wednesday, hours after Iraqi leaders agreed on a proposal that would end his standoff with the US-led forces. As many as 25 insurgents were killed, the coalition said. The cleric, Moqtada al-Sadr, urged fighters in Karbala to resist US troops, comparing their struggle to the Vietnam War.
Half of the Mukhaiyam mosque, which had served as a base for al-Sadr's followers, was destroyed and seven hotels were ablaze after tanks opened fire and jets bombed the area. Most of the shops in Tal al-Zeinabiya, a central market, and three ambulances and two military vehicles also were destroyed. Fighting subsided by dusk as the call for evening prayers spread across the city from loudspeakers at the Imam Hussein mosque, one of the most sacred shrines of Shias. Special guards manned the gates to the shrine to prevent al-Sadr's fighters from entering. The intermittent sound of explosives and heavy machine gun fire continued as night fell on the city.
Fighters pushed a wounded comrade down a deserted street on a pushcart. Al-Mahdi fighters acknowledged they lost control of the Mukhaiyam mosque, which US officials said the fighters were using as a base."We put up a very stuff resistance," said Ameer Latif, 30, a militiaman from the nearby town of Musayyib. Another fighter from the same town, Amar Haider, leaned against a wall with his Kalashnikov rifle in hand: "God willing, we shall still be victorious."
And if not, I guess God wills that, too...
American troops and al-Sadr's followers also fought overnight on the outskirts of the southern holy cities of Kufa and Najaf, and residents heard large explosions. One Iraqi was killed and four were wounded in Kufa, and four Iraqis were wounded in Najaf, hospital officials said. "I appeal to the fighters and mujahedeen in Karbala to stand together so as none of our holy sites and cities are defiled," al-Sadr said, speaking at a shrine in Najaf, where he is holed up. "We are prepared for any American escalation and we expect one."
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 14:07 ||
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I heard on the radio that the destroyed mosque was chock full of munitions. True?
#2
"...al-Sadr said, speaking at a shrine..." Talks tough, but holes up in shrines. Will no doubt die from the secondary blasts. Yes, I too heard that the destroyed mosque had far more blast than what we delivered.
Posted by: Tom ||
05/13/2004 15:08 Comments ||
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BTW, thought y'all might be interested in this, from JPost.
A Kalashnikov rifle in the Gaza Strip can cost up to $1000 compared with 2000 Egyptian lira across the border â a third of the price. A single bullet costs $3 in Gaza compared with half an Egyptian lira (8 cents).
#3
Lh, what's your point?
If the news can be believed, Mubarrak is keeping the Egyptian border locked down pretty tight.
Unless the Paleos can access Egyptian weapons from their tunnels, getting cheap Egyptian weapons shouldn't be that easy.
It looks as if Mubarrak is keeping the price low to make it easy to wage jihad against the Israeli "occupiers," though.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/13/2004 16:00 Comments ||
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Rantburg inside joke, Jen. I'll let someone else explain it.
#5
A Kalashnikov rifle in the Gaza Strip can cost up to $1000 compared with 2000 Egyptian lira across the border â a third of the price. A single bullet costs $3 in Gaza compared with half an Egyptian lira (8 cents).
Finally raw meat! LOL LH. I'ma smell presharwar.
The al-Qaida-linked Web site that first posted a video of American civilian Nicholas Berg's beheading was shut down Thursday by the Malaysian company that hosted it â because it was drawing too much traffic. A senior officer of the company, Acme Commerce Sdn. Bhd., said Thursday it was not aware that the site, www.al-ansar.biz, may have been connected to al-Qaida or that offensive material had been posted on it. If it had, the company would likely have shut it down earlier, said Alfred Lim, Acme Commerce's business manager. "We are a legitimate business, in no way related to al-Qaida," Lim told The Associated Press. "We have no control over what our clients put on their Web sites."
The al-Ansar site was operated by a client who rented space on a Malaysian-based Web server owned by Acme Commerce, Lim said, although he was not sure exactly when the client began renting the space. Lim said Acme Commerce disabled the site Thursday morning because it had attracted "a sudden surge of massive traffic that is taking up too much bandwidth and causing inconvenience to our other clients." The company also began getting calls from Web surfers who had traced the site's server on the Internet and drew officials' attention to the content for the first time, Lim said.
In case you're interested...
Domain Name: AL-ANSAR.BIZ
Domain ID: D3802752-BIZ
Sponsoring Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Domain Status: ok
Registrant Name: Omar AbuOmar
Registrant Organization: Al-ansar Biz
Registrant Address1: new dream st 33
Registrant City: nurnberg
Registrant State/Province: Not Applicable
Registrant Postal Code: 42114
Registrant Country: Denmark
Registrant Country Code: DK
Registrant Phone Number: +965.15441211
Registrant Email: alansar_alansar@hotmail.com
Name Server: NS11.TASSMEEM.NET
Name Server: NS12.TASSMEEM.NET
Created by Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Last Updated by Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Domain Registration Date: Tue Jan 07 01:54:38 GMT 2003
Domain Expiration Date: Thu Jan 06 23:59:59 GMT 2005
Domain Last Updated Date: Sat Jan 03 20:54:01 GMT 2004
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:59 ||
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U.S. troops killed five suspected Taliban who ambushed their patrol in southern Afghanistan, an Afghan official said Thursday, but an American military official said she was unaware of such a clash. Khalid Pashtun, spokesman for the provincial government of Kandahar, said the patrol was attacked Wednesday near Khakrez. At least 10 militants opened fire on an American convoy with AK-47 assault rifles, but were no match for their target, Pashtun told The Associated Press. "Five Taliban were killed in the gun battle and the other five are in American custody," Pashtun said. "None of the Americans was hurt." Two of the five people captured after the botched ambush were local Taliban commanders Abdul Halal and Abdul Shakoor, Pashtun said.
Obviously masters of guerrilla warfare...
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:57 ||
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Two Islamic militant groups, Hezbollah and Hamas, issued strongly worded condemnations Thursday of the videotaped beheading of an American civilian in Iraq. Arab governments and Islamic militant groups, most of which have spoken out repeatedly about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, initially kept silent about the videotaped slaying. On Thursday, however, Lebanon's Hezbollah and the militant Palestinian group Hamas, both labeled terrorist organizations by the United States, said the beheading was appalling and un-Islamic.
Wasn't there a statement by an Islamic Jihad guy the other day, made with the head of dead Israeli soldier sitting on his desk?
In a statement faxed to The Associated Press, Hezbollah called the 26-year-old Berg's killing an "extremely brutal and cruel" act. "Hezbollah condemns this grisly act which has caused great harm to Islam and to Muslims by this group which falsely claims to belong to the religion of mercy, compassion and genuine human values," the statement said. "By its suspicious actions and links, this group belongs to the Pentagon school — the school of killings, occupation, crime, torture and immoral practices as exposed by the big scandal in the occupation prisons."
Osama Hamdan, Hamas' representative in Lebanon, denounced both Berg's killers and President Bush. "I condemn this brutal act and sympathize with the family of the slain American man, who I consider a victim of the wrong U.S. policies in the region," Hamdan told The Associated Press. "U.S. President George Bush and (Berg's) killers are equally responsible." Both Hezbollah and Hamas said the beheading hurt Arab causes, and predicted the United States would use it to turn attention away from the prisoner abuse scandal.
The contrast is rather remarkable, isn't it? The prison abuses weren't policy, the perps are lining up for their court martials, we're embarrassed and we're cleaning up. Berg's head was cut off by the head of al-Qaeda in Iraq and they're proud of it.
Both groups have condemned the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States, and Hezbollah has denounced a few other major terrorist attacks that targeted civilians, but the language they used Thursday was unusually tough. The other Palestinian militant group, Islamic Jihad, declined to comment on the beheading. The group's Lebanese representative, Abu Imad Rifai, said he couldn't be sure Berg was dead. "I cannot comment on the report because I am not sure of its authenticity. I didn't see the man's body," Rifai told AP.
"I mean, I only saw his head, hanging from some guy's hand..."
Posted by: Fred ||
05/13/2004 13:49 ||
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rriiggghhhtt
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 14:02 Comments ||
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I'm sorry, did Hamas make that statement from the desk with the Isreali soldiers' decapitated head on it? Monty Python couldn't have come up with anything more absurd, and at least they are funny.
This is from the folks over at Free Republic - I haven?t checked it out yet, but I have a bad feeling it?s true...
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/13/2004 2:32:50 AM ||
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#1
I haven't seen the full video, and for various reasons, I'm not going to. I did see part of it on TV, though, and was very surprised at Berg's passivity. Did he not know what was going on (since his captors were speaking in Arabic), or do you suppose he was drugged?
#2
i have no pity on any muslim killed in the prosecution of this war...this needs to be widely condenmed just like the prisoners at abu, who are still ALIVE! it is not being condenmed by the so called moderat muslims..scew them and forget about any pity...
Posted by: Dan ||
05/13/2004 13:57 Comments ||
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Did he not know what was going on (since his captors were speaking in Arabic), or do you suppose he was drugged?
As he was almost completely covered, it's possible he was beaten senseless.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 15:34 Comments ||
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I think every family, in every country around the World, should have to watch this video before dinner. I want them to see this video as often as the POW humiliation photos and never forget the savagery of the animals we are fighting.
Maybe the Army should consider segregating the troops by sex again.
Shocking shots of sexcapades involving Pfc. Lynndie England were among the hundreds of X-rated photos and videos from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shown to lawmakers in a top-secret Capitol conference room yesterday. "She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the photos.
"Next! Sign the consent form and drop yer drawers!"
And, videos showed the disgraced soldier - made notorious in a photo showing her holding a leash looped around an Iraqi prisonerâs neck - engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials told NBC Nightly News. "Almost everybody was naked all the time," another lawmaker said.
The Army sure has changed since I was in...
Many members of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken anyone. "It was pretty disgusting, not what youâd expect from Americans," said Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.). "There was lots of sexual stuff - not of the Iraqis, but of our troops."
Actually, I'm trying to figure what our troops diddling each other has to do with the abuse of Iraqi bad guys. Or was this on company time?
Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who also characterized the photos as "disgusting," agreed, noting, "Itâs hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility." The shocking photos and videos, provided on computer disks by Pentagon officials, showed attack dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners tied together on the floor, senators revealed as they emerged from the heavily guarded conference room. "It was significantly worse than I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore). "Take the worst case and multiply it over several times."
"I donât know how these people got into our Army," said Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-Colo.), who reported seeing "several pictures of Iraqi women who were disrobed or putting their shirts up."
Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) described the images as "more detailed and more graphic than the pictures that have been released publicly," referring to the disturbing photos of Iraqis being abused at Abu Ghraib prison that surfaced two weeks ago, and which Islamic terrorists claim led to this weekâs revenge beheading of American Nick Berg. "Normally, I side with disclosure and openness, but in this case, these photos are evidence," Schumer said, indicating that he favors keeping the lid on the alarming pictures, as Vice President Dick Cheney and Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) have urged. Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.
Ummmm... In an apparent bid for something or other. I saw the same thing on COPS last week, and nobody was abusing the guy...
In another video clip, she said, a group of men were shown masturbating.
Which men? Prisoners or jailers?
Before the pictures of Englandâs sex romps were shown to Congress, the 21-year-old reservist from West Virginia tried to portray herself as a reluctant participant who was just following orders. "I didnât really, I mean, want to be in any pictures," England told a Denver TV station. "I was instructed by persons in higher rank to âstand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,â and they took picture for PsyOps [psychological operations]," she told KCNC-TV. England acknowledged "it was kind of weird" when she was photographed smiling, with a cigarette in her mouth, as she leaned forward and pointed at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi at Abu Ghraib prison. England has refused to identify who gave her the orders, saying only that they came from "persons in my chain of command." England faces a military court-martial that includes charges such as conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery. She could face punishment ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.
Give her her reprimand, kick her out of the Army, and let her get on with her budding career as a porn artiste...
Posted by: JerseyMike ||
05/13/2004 8:35:44 AM ||
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the Paris Hilton of Iraq! Soon to be appearing on a pay for Pr0n site near you.
#2
Gotta love Ben Nighthorse Campbell's comment...how in the hell did people like this get in our Army? Well, it couldn't be b/c of the sexcapades going on in the "oral" office under previous admin. Or the feminazis' insistence that women be on the front line. Ya gotta wonder...who in their right freakin' mind would put a female soldier in as a prison guard full of hardened criminals (remember this wing of the prison was for the hardest criminals) and not expect some kind of sexual aura to overcome the area?
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 13:50 Comments ||
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The orders, came from "persons in my chain of command." She was a private! Everyone was in her 'chain of command'! She is covering her ass! About time if what is said about the photos is true!
#5
Ya gotta wonder...who in their right freakin' mind would put a female soldier in as a prison guard full of hardened criminals (remember this wing of the prison was for the hardest criminals) and not expect some kind of sexual aura to overcome the area?
No one.
She wasn't assigned to the prison; she was a paper-pusher handling admissions and records-keeping. Her boyfriend was assigned to the cell block, and she went in there to be with him.
No one ordered her to be there; she was there voluntarily.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 14:49 Comments ||
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RC: Good point! This girl's lookin' more and more like a looser and that she was out for a good time instead of being a real soldier.
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 15:03 Comments ||
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Okay, I'm gonna make a plea here that these pictures never, ever be made public. Ulgh!
Posted by: Cthulhu Akbar ||
05/13/2004 15:24 Comments ||
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I read this and thought...
"This sounds more like a girls gone wild video than an atrocities tape."
#9
Gotta wonder who up her chain of command ordered her to have sex for the cameras. Or is her other story a bunch of crap. Odds are they knew she'd be willing to do anything so when they got around to abusing the prisoners in a sexual way her boyfriend called her up. The orders were probably suggestions from the cameraman and not actual orders.
#12
Can anybody surmise just what purpose was served by having England doing this in front of the prisoners ?
Or, is it likely that this was completely done at the personal volition of herself and a couple of others (to make some money in some porno subgenre ?)
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
05/13/2004 17:55 Comments ||
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If I hear "but it was all ordered by people in my chain of command" one more time I'm going to have to get a new skepticism meter.
I thought the batteries were dead in this one, but then I turned it right-side-up.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/13/2004 18:19 Comments ||
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Actually, I'm trying to figure what our troops diddling each other has to do with the abuse of Iraqi bad guys. Or was this on company time?
Whether it was on company time or not, she was apparently violating the fraternization rules, with multiple partners, without birth control, and in a war zone... any way you look at it, this sounds like a massive breach of discipline. Of course she'll say it's because the evil MI people and Rumsfeld (who they'll allege was watching the whole thing from his Pentagon office on CCTV) used their mind control rays on her...
But my point is, if she and her codefendants were already committing these sorts of breaches of discipline for personal amusement, this would tend to reinforce the hypothesis that they were not conducting their abuses of the prisoners because of orders from the chain of command or attached MI officers, but were doing it for kicks.
(Oh, and the fact that she wasn't even cleared to be in the area also would tend to reinforce the hypothesis as well. It would tend to violate the sort of informantional segregation intelligence units have _historically_ practiced, AFAICT.)
Just my $.02.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/13/2004 18:28 Comments ||
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Check out the Stanford experiment which shows how easily thiings can go bad in a prison situation.
EFL Toby Harnden is the Middle East correspondent for the Daily Telegraph.
The other day, while taking a break by the Al-Hamra Hotel pool, fringed with the usual cast of tattooed defence contractors, I was accosted by an American magazine journalist of serious accomplishment and impeccable liberal credentials. ... But then she came to the point. Not only had she âknownâ the Iraq war would fail but she considered it essential that it did so because this would ensure that the âevilâ George W. Bush would no longer be running her country. Her editors back on the East Coast were giggling, she said, over what a disaster Iraq had turned out to be. âLots of us talk about how awful it would be if this worked out.â Startled by her candour, I asked whether thousands more dead Iraqis would be a good thing. SOBs
The article requires registration, which is relatively painless.
Posted by: mrp ||
05/13/2004 10:24:12 AM ||
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I don't register, so can anyone tell me if Toby named names?
Yet more evidence in support of a "Wretchard Exception" (to go with the Lileks, VDH, and Steyn Exceptions). EFL: go read it all, including the stuff he links to . . .
If General Conwayâs goal in Fallujah was to drive a wedge between foreign fighters and locals, there are indications he may be succeeding. And the success is not limited to the Sunni triangle. Among the Shiâites, the combination of political and military warfare is also yielding results. This widely publicized letter from Lt. Steven Oliver of the 16th Engineering Battalion summarizes the interplay eloquently.
The fighting we are engaged in against the uprising of Muqtada Al-Sadr is one that is extremely sensitive and risks catastrophe. Had we entered this previously, it would not have been possible for us to win. Over the months, we have been involved in preparations and much planning. Thus, today we are scoring amazing successes against this would-be tyrant. I ask that the American people be brave. Donât fall for the spin by the weak and timid amongst you that are portraying this battle as a disaster. Such people are always looking for our failure to justify and rescue their constant pessimism. They are raising false flags of defeat in the press and media. It just isnât true. . . . Shia leaders are breaking from him now in large numbers. The overall Shia leader of Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, has left Sadrâs call for jihad and uprising to flounder on deaf ears. Bremmer and Gen. Abizaid stunned the overall Shia community by negotiating a calm in Fallujah. That has tail-spinned Sadr and his efforts to intimidate Iraqâs Shia leaders. They see the US hand is strong, and that therefore they are making a mistake in kowtowing to Sadrâs terror and violence.
Those who might regard Lieutenant Oliverâs letter as optimistic will find it corroborated by these developments reported by the New York Times. It describes operations against Moqtada Al-Sadr, following an extensive period in which he was progressively isolated from the Shiâite clergy and community. Not surprisingly, the spearhead against Sadrâs forces were Iraqis themselves. . . .
This was not supposed to happen. April was supposed to mark the death rattle of the American occupation in Iraq. It was never meant to lead to joint Marine-Iraqi patrols in Fallujah or Iraqi commandos hunting down Moqtada Al-Sadr in Najaf. Yet the change did not proceed from "more American boots on the ground" nor from the provision of additional guards for the Baghdadi antiquities or an influx of NGOs. Still less was it the consequence of a grant of legitimacy from the United Nations or the messianic arrival of French troops. In fact it coincided with the departure of the Spanish contingent from Iraq. The change sprang from the correct application of the original strategy: building a democratic and free Iraq by recognizing the leadership which arose from the circumstances. It arose not from an imposed set of politically correct commissars in Baghdad but in complementing indigenous efforts with American strengths.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/13/2004 12:52:04 PM ||
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Wherein teaching Iraqis about democracy involves lessons in compromise. Those of us lucky enough to live in the democratic west know that life in not alway black and white, but often shades of gray. We do not always get everything we demand, whether it be the total destruction of Fallujah justice, or the end to all income tax government spending.
Posted by: john ||
05/13/2004 15:07 Comments ||
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Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site. "There is no doubt that killing detainees and mutilating the remains of the dead are acts which are condemned by all religions and contrary to the morals of all nations and peoples," Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan said in a statement released Wednesday. "The Al-Zarqawi group is a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group, allied with bin Laden and the criminals of Al Qaeda who are killing even Muslims and Arabs for no reason. Accordingly, it is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts."
The Jordanian Embassy in Washington issued its own release, decrying the beheading. "Jordan strongly condemns the barbaric act committed against Mr. Nick Berg, a U.S. contractor in Iraq, by the terrorist group headed by Abu Al Zarqawi. Jordan has issued a death sentence against Al Zarqawi for his terrorist activities which threatened to kill thousands of Jordanian citizens and for plotting attacks against U.S. and foreign interests in Jordan."
The United Arab Emirates called the killing a "heinous crime against the civilized world." "We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement. "This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values." He also extended the UAEâs condolences to the family of Berg, saying, "We pray for them to find the courage and strength to deal with their loss."
Iraqi Human Rights Minister Bakhtiar Amin said Iraq would do everything within its power to bring Bergâs killers to justice. "Those psychopaths who committed this immoral crime should be brought before justice very rapidly and get their deserved punishment," Amin said. The olâ surprise meter twitched a little. It could be background noise. I havenât calibrated it in some time.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/13/2004 11:30:26 AM ||
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Obviously, they didn't seem to think the video was faked.
#7
Read carefully the Saudi statement...it's wrong to kill detainees and mutilate the remains of the dead! However, if they're not detained, feel free to kill at will! And where was the mutilation statement when our 4 contractors were burned and hung from a bridge, not to mention the killing of the Italian contractor, etc? And, don't forget it's a "noble religion"...now Prince Bandar, pass the money on to AQ!
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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However, if they're not detained, feel free to kill at will!
If you are referring to *soldiers* that are not detainees, then it's not considered either a war crime or terrorism or even murder to kill them -- it's considered normal warfare.
Spainâs top military officer in Iraq, Jose de Enrique Ayala, rejected calls by the U.S. command to suppress the uprising in Najaf in April, Spanish newspapers reported Tuesday. Ayala said Spanish troops werenât equipped to launch an offensive against Moqtada al-Sadrâs militias and told U.S. commanders that Spainâs was a peace- keeping force, ABC newspaper reported. The U.S. intervention to suppress the uprising in the central region of Iraq controlled by Spanish and Polish forces was carried out without "us agreeing or understanding (the reason for the action)," Ayala was reported as saying by the newspaper. Separately, El Pais said these events were "decisive" in the Spanish governmentâs decision to pull its troops out of Iraq ahead of schedule.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
05/13/2004 11:07:29 AM ||
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without "us agreeing or understanding (the reason for the action),"
That pretty much sums up the Spanish.
Had the "uprising" overrun the Spanish garrison and killed all the troops, they still wouldn't have understood or agreed there was a reason to take action.
Oh, yeah - and it would have been the Americans' fault.
You've made your choice, Spain. Say goodbye to bathing suits, wine, and women working. Say hello to the Middle Ages. Again.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/13/2004 11:21 Comments ||
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What's worse is the line: Spanish troops werenât equipped to launch an offensive ... Spainâs was a peace-keeping force. In other words, Ayala didn't see his people as soldiers. What bullshit. Must be one of the many UN diseases - "peacekeeperitis" (there's one for you Dr. Steve). Hey don't we look cool in these blue helmets (please don't shoot)?
#5
Yesterday Liberalhawk asked my how I could know that the French wouldn't defend their homeland against an uprising of muslim immigrants. I can never know for sure, but data points like this, the behavior of the Dutch at Srbrenica and the recent German debacle in Kosovo speak strongly to me. Predicting moral as opposed to material outcomes is always difficult. Certainly defending one's homeland is different than defending someone else's.
In my gut, this all reminds my of that night in Panama when the Cruzada Civica (CC) was manning the barricades. Power was out and the city was quiet of anticipation of battle. Then the CC leadership put out the word. Go home. Surrender. Our freedom isn't worth a drop of our blood. It was a year and a half later when we Americans gave them back their freedom. We sacrificed a few dozen of our best for it.
#7
Contrast this to the El Salvadorean soldier who, after running out of ammunition, pulled a knife and attacked the jihadis. The Spanish Army deserves Zapatero. What a bunch of useless pussies. We're better off without them.
#8
Just out of curiosity, what does peacekeeping mean? Does it mean that when the bad guys come in and roust the local authorities, declare themselves to be in charge, and start setting up military positions, it's OK as long as they do it in a peaceful fashion? Were the Spanish going to do crowd control for the Mehdi Army? What a bunch of useless *****s! Spain has the distinction of being one of the few countries that France has been able to defeat in the last 200 years. Now, I know why.
#9
11A5s - perhaps even the CC didnt believe that US occupation meant a signficant loss of freedom vs Noriega. 3rd world nationalism/state loyalty is still a different thing than first world, not to mention how the militaries operate.
and yes, being on your own turf is a big difference. Look at Russia, which left Afghanistan, but has stayed in Chechnya - difference, they see Chechnya as part of Russia.
Vichy France also did not represent a collapse of society, but a shift of power within it. It represented the rise to power of the French right (and some odd parts of the French left) with the cooperation of a foreign power. But the Germans were careful to treat Vichy as a self-governing, even theoretically sovereign power (which the US continued to recognize till 1942, BTW)
Look at how France is responding now, with a Hijab law, and with exiling Imams. If France is nuked, their instinct WONT be to surrender, it will be to go anti-muslim Fascist. Blood in the banlieus. It will be very ugly. AQ will like that, since it will gain them support in muslim countries, and theyll be happy to sacrifice French muslims for that. I much prefer our approach of fighting AQ in the middle east.
#10
Well, the last time France beat Spain, France was at the top of its military abilities - 1808-1812.
In the same years France beat almost everybody else.
#11
RVW, I wouldn't indict the whole Spanish Army because of the weakness of its commanders. From everything I have read, the Spanish soldiers are well regarded by their US counterparts, and many Spanish soldiers were disappointed by Zappy's order to return home early.
Posted by: Tibor ||
05/13/2004 13:21 Comments ||
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RWV (#8) ... what does peacekeeping mean?
Clearly you're not a European. Peacekeeping means that when a bunch of armed thugs show up, and say "we're here to kill those unarmed people over there", you apologise profusely for keeping them from their important appointment and gracefully step out of the way. It means that you run up large expenses on food or whores while the locals get murdered or starve. It means that if there's any real trouble, you call in the U.S. and either blame them if it doesn't work out, or take all the credit if it does. Silly American.
Posted by: A Jackson ||
05/13/2004 23:44 Comments ||
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#13
Seems to me that it took the British and Wellington to kick Napoleon out of Spain in 1811.
IRAQI prisoners gave US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a frosty reception today as he toured Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, at the centre of revelations of abuses by US troops, during a surprise visit to Iraq. Iraqi security detainees watched from behind a fence as Mr Rumsfeld toured the facility in an armoured vehicle. Some of the prisoners gestured a thumbs-down to Mr Rumsfeld, others held aloft a tattered Iraqi flag. Most stood in silence with their arms folded as they were paraded for their guest. Mr Rumsfeld had told reporters he wanted to hear from those involved in the day-to-day work of detainee operations. "We care about the detainees being treated right. We care about soldiers behaving right. We care about command systems working," he told journalists.
Posted by: tipper ||
05/13/2004 10:59:41 AM ||
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#1
I heard about the 60 minutes II piece last night and what a LOAD OF SHIT! Can anyone honestly believe that a commander would leave one guard in charge of 500 prisoners for TEN MONTHS! I am glad I missed that or my big screen would be broken today. The LLL news is way way out of bounds with this reporting. Also we find out today that Miss Congeniality of Abu Grab-ass prison was also the prison whore? Wonder what her story is today? Funny how the LLL news just embraces every weirdo/sicko that claims they were wronged by the government. Kind of like and escape hatch, got caught doing something wrong? No problem, blame the Bush administration for YOUR actions. Notice that NOT ONE of these yahoos has named ONE person that supposedly uttered the orders to abuse these prisoners.
#2
Notice that NOT ONE of these yahoos has named ONE person that supposedly uttered the orders to abuse these prisoners.
I noticed that. I also noticed that the press doesn't seem too eager to ask for a name, either.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 12:40 Comments ||
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#3
Notice that NOT ONE of these yahoos has named ONE person that supposedly uttered the orders to abuse these prisoners.
Right. It's all mysterious "MI officers" that their attorneys have said not to name.
Here by the way is the TOE for a Corps level MP company.
Here is what a corps level MP Company is designed to handle (also from TOE):
(8) Escort of 1,900 enemy prisoners of war (EPW) when walking, 2,500 EPW when traveling by vehicle, or 3,300 EPW when traveling by train.
(9) Guarding of up to 2,000 EPW in a holding area having adequate facilities.
(10) Control of dismounted refugee movement of up to 150,000 per day (not including the care, shelter, or protection of the same).
(11) Battlefield law and order for 75,000 nondivisional personnel or garrison law and order for 25,000 personnel.
(12) Detention of 700 U.S. military prisoners.
There were three such companies plus contractors at Abu Ghraib. According to this Fox News article, there were ~ 3,800 prisoners at AG when the abuses occurred. There should have been adequate boots on the ground to run such a prison. I did this research in ten minutes. Presumably a jounalist could also do it. But that wouldn't sell newspapers.
#4
Here's the offical statment about the chain of command at the prison. Our military guys can probably make more sense out of it than I can.
Second, I want to clarify a comment made at a previous press conference regarding the chain of command relationships for the 372nd Military Police Company in Abu Ghraib from 19 November 2003 until recently. On 19 November 2003, a fragmentary order was issued by CJTF-7 that placed the 320th MP Battalion, the parent organization of the 372nd MP Company, under the tactical control, TACON, of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade. Tactical control, or TACON, provides authority for the 205th MI Brigade to assign missions and tasks to the 320th MP Battalion. However, the 800th MP Brigade was still responsible for command oversight, leadership, discipline and training for subordinate units, of which the 372nd Military Police Company was one. While the 205th MI Brigade was given TACON for the purpose of assigning missions or tasks, its FRAGO did not change the command relationship or responsibilities within the 800th MP Brigade.
#5
Translated into civilianese it means that the 205th MI Brigade could tell the 320th MP battalion what it had to do on a day to day basis. However, the 800th MP brigade(the 320th parent unit) was still responsible for feeding, housing and disciplining it own soldiers.
I believe this is one of the areas that the Taguba report says helped lead to the abuse. TACON means tactical control and is usually used in fluid tactical situations like a battle. It is not suited to long term operations.
#6
IRAQI prisoners gave US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a frosty reception today
Odd. Don't most prisoners celebrate when a government official visits their prison?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 11:06 Comments ||
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#7
I did this research in ten minutes. Presumably a jounalist could also do it. But that wouldn't sell newspapers.
"Journalists" don't do research anymore, they just report what a "source" tells them. That's why you get lunatic-fringe groups like PETA with constant news coverage -- they're productive sources, so "journalists" don't need to work to come up with stories.
Ditto for this story -- the press is running with what the defense attorneys are telling them, with no regard to its plausbility or relation to reality. That it happens to coincide with Democrat political interests just makes it that much easier to publish.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 13:29 Comments ||
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VETERAN French lawyer Jacques Verges will today file a war crimes suit against Britain at the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Mr Verges, who says he has been asked to act for former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein, said the suit would be on behalf of "the families of prisoners of the coalition in which Britain participates".
Sammy sits up nights worrying about them...
"The reality of torture and systematic abuses of the dignity of Iraqi prisoners, sometimes followed by murders, both by US and British troops is no longer in question," the text of the complaint reads.
Posted by: tipper ||
05/13/2004 10:55:10 AM ||
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#1
Yeah - Saddahm is worried about torture of Iraqis by Brittish and American troops.
But of course the suit was filed by a FRENCH lawyer. Nothing else need be said.
#5
A4617 - The lawyer is French. He can only file against Britain because we won't recognize the Hague court until the appeasement majority in this country elects Lurch to be president in November.
#8
What's being done here is less important than who's doing it. Verges has made a name defending the world's worst vipers. I think his view is not so much that even monsters deserve a competent defence, but that the enemies of his enemy (humanity) are his friends.
#9
Most French consideer Verges as lowest of the lowest. And he is not interested in his clients but in how he can use them to harm Western countries. There was a Moroccan gardener who was accused of murdering his employer, any lawyer would have demolished the accusation with ease since proofs were shaky at best but he spent the trial accusing French of racism. His client spent many years in prison thanks to him.
He has also defended Klaus Barbie and Bourgarel (a communist who tortured French soldiers captured by the Vietminh)
We must be willing to bring the fight to those who would do evil.
BY JOSE RAMOS-HORTA
The new Socialist government in Spain has caved in to the terrorist threats and withdrawn its troops from Iraq. So have Honduras and the Dominican Republic. They are unlikely to be the last. With the security situation expected to worsen before it improves, we have to accept that a few more countries--which do not appreciate how much the world has at stake in building a free Iraq--will also cut and run. No matter how the retreating governments try to spin it, every time a country pulls out of Iraq it is al Qaeda and other extremists who win. They draw the conclusion that the coalition of the willing is weak and that the more terrorist outrages, the more countries will withdraw.
As a Nobel Peace laureate, I, like most people, agonize over the use of force. But when it comes to rescuing an innocent people from tyranny or genocide, Iâve never questioned the justification for resorting to force. Thatâs why I supported Vietnamâs 1978 invasion of Cambodia, which ended Pol Potâs regime, and Tanzaniaâs invasion of Uganda in 1979, to oust Idi Amin. In both cases, those countries acted without U.N. or international approval--and in both cases they were right to do so. Perhaps the French have forgotten how they, too, toppled one of the worst human-rights violators without U.N. approval. I applauded in the early â80s when French paratroopers landed in the dilapidated capital of the then Central African Empire and deposed "Emperor" Jean Bedel Bokassa, renowned for cannibalism. Almost two decades later, I applauded again as NATO intervened--without a U.N. mandate--to end ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and liberate an oppressed European Muslim community from Serbian tyranny. And I rejoiced once more in 2001 after the U.S.-led overthrow of the Taliban liberated Afghanistan from one of the worldâs most barbaric regimes.
So why do some think Iraq should be any different? Only a year after his overthrow, they seem to have forgotten how hundreds of thousands perished during Saddam Husseinâs tyranny, under a regime whose hallmark was terror, summary execution, torture and rape. Forgotten too is how the Kurds and Iraqâs neighbors lived each day in fear, so long as Saddam remained in power.
Those who oppose the use of force at any cost may question why overthrowing Saddam was such a priority. Why not instead tackle Robert Mugabe, the junta in Myanmar, or Syria? But while Mugabe is a ruthless despot, he is hardly in the same league as Saddam--a tyrant who used chemical weapons on his own people, unleashed two catastrophic wars against his Muslim neighbors, and defied the U.N. Saddamâs overthrow offers a chance to build a new Iraq that is peaceful, tolerant and prosperous. Thatâs why the stakes are so high, and why extremists from across the Muslim world are fighting to prevent it. They know that a free Iraq would fatally undermine their goal of purging all Western influence from the Muslim world, overthrowing the secular regimes in the region, and imposing Stone Age rule. They know that forcing Western countries to withdraw from Iraq would be a major step toward that goal, imperiling the existence of moderate regimes--from the Middle East to the Magreb and Southeast Asia. If those regimes were to fall, hundreds of thousands of Muslims who today denounce the "evils" of Western imperialism would flock to Europe, the U.S., Canada and Australia, seeking refuge. As in Iran, Muslims might have to experience the reality of rule by ayatollahs before they realize how foolish they were not to oppose these religious zealots more vigorously.
Fortunately that remains a remote scenario. If we look beyond the TV coverage, there is hope that Washingtonâs vision of transforming Iraq might still be realized. Credible opinion polls show that a large majority of Iraqis feel better off than a year ago. There is real freedom of the press with newspapers and radio stations mushrooming in the new Iraq. There is unhindered Internet access. NGOs covering everything from human rights to womenâs advocacy have emerged. In short, Iraq is experiencing real freedom for the first time in its history. And that is exactly what the religious fanatics fear. Iraqâs Shiite majority has acted with restraint in the face of provocation by extremist elements in the Sunni minority, Saddam loyalists and al Qaeda and other foreign mercenaries. The coalition authorities would be wise to cultivate responsible Shiite clerics more closely and ensure that their legitimate concerns are met. While a Shiite-dominated regime might not meet Americaâs goal of a Western-style democracy, it is still far preferable to risking the return of Saddamâs thugs. The U.S. must reiterate that building democracy will not marginalize Islam. Democracy and Islam coexist in Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh, while Israel offers an example of a state built on a single religion. That could be the case in Iraq, too, as long as it is led by wise clerics who are able to deliver freedom and good governance. The most probable contender to fill this role is Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who has emerged as the national leader the country needs to keep it together. He may not be a democrat in the Western mold, but the U.S. needs to cultivate him, and provide whatever support is required to ensure that he emerges as ruler of the new Iraq.
The U.S. also needs to repair the damage done by the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. While itâs important to remember that those involved only represent a tiny fraction of U.S. servicemen in Iraq, the fact remains that the abuse was allowed to continue for many months after organizations such as the normally secretive Red Cross sounded alarm bells. Only thorough investigation, including action against those responsible, can restore U.S. standing in Iraq.
Now is the time for Washington to show leadership by ensuring that the U.N. plays the central role in building a new Iraq. As an East Timorese, I am well aware of the international bodyâs limits, having seen first hand its impotence in the face of Indonesiaâs invasion of my country in 1975. The U.N. is the sum of our qualities and weaknesses, our selfish national interests and personal vanities. For all its shortcomings, it is the only international organization we all feel part of; it should be cherished rather than further weakened. While the U.S. will continue to play a critical role in ensuring security in Iraq, a U.N.-led peacekeeping force would enable many Arab and Muslim nations to join in and help isolate the extremists. In almost 30 years of political life, I have supported the use of force on several occasions and sometimes wonder whether I am a worthy recipient of the Nobel Peace prize. Certainly I am not in the same category as Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela. But Mr. Mandela, too, recognized the need to resort to violence in the struggle against white oppression. The consequences of doing nothing in the face of evil were demonstrated when the world did not stop the Rwandan genocide that killed almost a million people in 1994. Where were the peace protesters then? They were just as silent as they are today in the face of the barbaric behavior of religious fanatics. Some may accuse me of being more of a warmonger than a Nobel laureate, but I stand ready to face my critics. It is always easier to say no to war, even at the price of appeasement. But being politically correct means leaving the innocent to suffer the world over, from Phnom Penh to Baghdad. And that is what those who would cut and run from Iraq risk doing. Mr. Ramos-Horta, the Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1996, is East Timorâs senior minister for foreign affairs and cooperation.
Posted by: tipper ||
05/13/2004 9:03:27 AM ||
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#1
Uh-oh, they're gonna take back his Nobel Prize for that one. That is very un Carter and Arafat like.
#3
Kudos to the Aussies for giving the East Timorese a chance at life and liberty.
Posted by: ed ||
05/13/2004 10:56 Comments ||
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#4
He had my support until this line:
Now is the time for Washington to show leadership by ensuring that the U.N. plays the central role in building a new Iraq.
Right. Give them the central role. The UN ran with its tail between its legs with one bombing. I wouldn't let those corrupt bastards balance my checkbook.
#5
Some may accuse me of being more of a warmonger than a Nobel laureate, but I stand ready to face my critics. It is always easier to say no to war, even at the price of appeasement. But being politically correct means leaving the innocent to suffer the world over, from Phnom Penh to Baghdad. And that is what those who would cut and run from Iraq risk doing.
No sir, we admire your courage in saying this, and worry that you think too clearly for your own good.
#6
Well, Raj, the U.N. DID help Jose and the East Timorese out, with Australian foundations.
Unfortunately, the man in charge of East Timor for the U.N. was their only competent nation-builder, and the jihadis assassinated him for it. (Remember that Osama and AQ regard the liberation of Christian East Timor from Muslim Indonesia as a horrid crime, as does that vomit-brained fascist Chomsky now, after weeping crocodile tears for them all the years that it was politically profitable to do so)
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 12:45 Comments ||
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Soldiers from Task Force 1st Armored Division cleared a building complex used by Muqtadaâs Militia during a cordon and search operation that began last night and continued into this morning. The operation began at about 11 p.m. Tuesday when elements of Task Force 1-37, 1st Armored Division moved into positions around the 12-building Mukhayam Mosque and shrine complex. Karbala, a Shiite holy city south of Baghdad, has been the site of several clashes between militiamen loyal to radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, and U.S. and other coalition troops over the past few days. The Mukhayam Mosque is located about 500 yards from the Imam Hussein and Imam Abbas shrines, two of Iraqâs most revered religious sites located at the cityâs center. Extreme caution was taken to ensure the holy shrines were not damaged in any way during the fighting.
Muqtadaâs Militia used the mosque complex to plan attacks against members of the coalition, stage forces and to store weapons and ammunition. Ammunition caches found inside several of the buildings were rigged for demolition. The coalition task force also included Polish and Bulgarian units, a company from the 402nd Iraqi Civil Defense Corps and Iraqi Police Service officers. As Soldiers prepared to enter the complex, they received mortar, small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire from the mosque and from rooftops of surrounding buildings. During the exchange, a cache of weapons and ammunition in one of the buildings ignited. At about 2:50 a.m. Soldiers rescued two bound-and-gagged Iraqi police officers from another building. Ammunition found with the policemen, also rigged for demolition, was disarmed. Militiamen holed up inside the shrine fought the advancing Coalition forces with small arms, rocket-propelled grenades and hand grenades. Iraqi Civil Defense Corps soldiers and Iraqi police officers made the assault into the mosque while other coalition forces established a cordon around the building. Inside, they found 15 artillery rounds, 15 mortar rounds and small arms ammunition. About 20 enemy militiamen were killed during the assault. Seven U.S. Soldiers were wounded.
Today, Soldiers have been destroying the weapons and ammunition found during the operation. Task Force Soldiers and Iraqi security forces remain in the area to secure the site and prevent looting. According to published reports, signs of mainstream Shiite resentment of al-Sadr have been rising. Tuesday, about 1,000 people marched through Najaf streets demanding that he and his followers leave the city, as moderate Shiite leaders have urged. Tensions rose as the march passed al-Sadrâs office. His fighters fired into the air, but there was no clash.
#1
Excellent work. One thing we should be doing, if we aren't, is to photograph and otherwise document the desecration of the mosques by these folks (arms caches, demolition arrangements, etc.) and distribute this info via leaflet and briefings by IP or other Iraqi authorities. We could also package up the info for international distribution -- then watch both English- and Arabic-language media ignore it -- since most of the work would already be done. I don't think most Iraqis are beyond reach in terms of info and opinion. Let's reach.
#4
Anybody catch the video feed of the Mosque dome getting blasted by direct cannon and heavy machine gun fire? Not only do we not mind, we WANTED this video to go out. Think about that.
Posted by: Dave ||
05/13/2004 10:26 Comments ||
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#5
Fox had it with Steve Harrigan doing the yeoman work, narrating under fire....pretty cool night shots
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 10:36 Comments ||
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#6
We probably don't photograph and document events that can be used to help our efforts over there.
Posted by: Sam ||
05/13/2004 10:48 Comments ||
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#7
Yeah, that was GREAT footage I saw with FNC and Steve Harrigan! Our boys were lightin' em up! BTW, Fox reported that post-combat (from the scene shown on FNC), we estimated that they'd fired over 100 RPGs at our armor and ONLY 7 of the RPG hit, and none of the 7 penetrated the armor! Looked like pretty close range shooting...man those guys SUCK! Less than 7% hits? And our guys were threadin' their M-16 fire through small windows in the mosque!
Posted by: BA ||
05/13/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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#8
20 enemy militiamen were killed
Hey, can we burn the bodies and hang them from a bridge?
It's a local tradition! Gotta show we are in step!
For the second time in as many days, Palestinian fighters blew up an Israeli armored personnel carrier in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, demolishing the vehicle and killing at least five Israeli soldiers, the Israeli military said Thursday morning. Palestinian guerrillas fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a convoy of three Israeli army vehicles at 6 p.m. Wednesday, according to a military spokesman, Capt. Jacob Dallal. The vehicles had stopped along a cleared corridor between Egypt and the Gaza Strip during a search for cross-border smuggling tunnels. The rocket struck an armored personnel carrier loaded with explosive materials used to destroy tunnels, and the vehicle blew up, Dallal said. The blast killed an officer and four enlisted men and injured three other soldiers. The radical group Islamic Jihad asserted responsibility for firing the rocket.
RPG on a thin-skinned vehicle packed with explosives? Ouch.
The back-to-back incidents killed a total of 11 Israeli soldiers, making it the deadliest period for the Israeli military since April 9, 2002, when Palestinian gunmen killed 13 Israeli soldiers in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. Early Thursday morning, an Israeli AH-64 Apache helicopter fired at a group of Palestinians in the city of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, killing seven people and critically injuring two. Israeli military officials said the men were trying to plant a roadside bomb. A Palestinian security official said the men were simply standing in the street.
"We wuz mindin' our own bidness, we wuz, and then BOOM! outta nowheres! T'aint fair!"
Political and military analysts in Israel said the soldiers' deaths would probably prompt calls for a review of military operations and equipment in Gaza and possibly encourage demands for an evacuation. "There is a tactical problem people are talking about with thin-skinned armored vehicles full of explosives," said Mark Heller, a senior researcher at Tel Aviv University's Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies. "Politically, it's going to reignite the debate about the withdrawal and disengagement from Gaza and push people to look for different ways to proceed with this idea."
"You can make too much of two bombings in two days -- such things happen in war," said Martin Van Creveld, a military historian at Hebrew University. "But what it does show is that our attempt to hold Gaza is doomed and it always has been doomed, and the sooner we get out of that damn place the better."
Sharon's plan looks better.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 12:55:41 AM ||
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#1
A Palestinian security official said the men were simply standing in the street.
In the words of that old song :
Standin' on the corner watchin' all the girls go by...
Oops - They don't watch girls. It's un Islamic.
Gee - Musta been plantin' that bomb.
The next question is:
Early Thursday morning, an Israeli AH-64 Apache helicopter fired at a group of Palestinians in the city of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, killing seven people and critically injuring two.
With all the talk of small amounts of remains, are they (IDF) sure seven is an accurate count?
Could be more, could be less. . . .
#2
Two for two? Are the Paleos getting lucky or do they know which vehicles are carrying demo? I leave out the possibility that they're getting good as a vanishingly small probability.
Long but so far the best description of what Berg was doing, reasonable timeline included.
U.S. authorities said Wednesday a young American who was beheaded by militants had been warned by the FBI to leave Iraq and was offered a plane ride to safety at a time when a new wave of violence spread across the country, making road travel extremely dangerous. Mystery surrounded not only Nicholas Berg's disappearance but also why he had been held by Iraqi police for about two weeks and questioned by FBI agents three times. Berg's family disputed U.S. officials' claims that Berg was never in U.S. custody. "The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do, the FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do. Who do they think they're kidding?" Berg's father, Michael, told The Associated Press from his home in West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb. Berg was last in contact with U.S. officials in Baghdad on April 10, and his body was found Saturday in Baghdad. Staff members at the $30-a-night Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad told the AP that Berg stayed there for several days until April 10. Two e-mails sent by Berg to his family and friends show the 26-year-old telecommunications expert traveled widely and unguarded throughout Iraq - an unsafe practice rarely done by Westerners. The FBI warned Berg shortly before his disappearance that Iraq was too volatile a place for unprotected American civilians but he turned down a State Department offer to fly him home, U.S. officials said Wednesday. Michael Berg said his son refused a U.S. offer in early April to board an outbound charter jet because he believed travel to the airport was too dangerous. American soldiers refer to the airport highway as "RPG Alley" because of frequent attacks by insurgents firing rocket-propelled grenades.
But driving to Jordan or Kuwait is safer?
According to the State Department, Berg told an American diplomat in Baghdad that he preferred to travel on his own to Kuwait. "At that time, the U.S. consular officer extended an offer to assist Mr. Berg to depart Iraq by plane to Jordan," said State Department spokeswoman Kelly Shannon. "We'd already discussed that possibility with his family, and we mentioned that to him, obviously, when we talked to him on the 10th." Berg first worked in Iraq in December and January and returned in March. He was inspecting communications facilities, some of which were destroyed in the war or by looters. During his time in Iraq, he struggled with the Arabic language and worked at night on a tower in Abu Ghraib.
Oh really?
Michael Berg told the AP that Nicholas' paternal aunt, now dead, married an Iraqi man named Mudafer, who became close to Nicholas. In one of the e-mails, Nicholas Berg describes going to the northern city of Mosul, where he introduced himself to Mudafer's brother, identified as Moffak Mustaffa. "We got along splendidly," Berg wrote. "We spent a few hours and I helped him establish an e-mail account." Berg notes that "my presence ... made him more concerned (about his own safety and probably mine too) than I've been the entire time I've been here."
Oh really? Wonder if Moffak set him up?
U.S. spokesmen Dan Senor and Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt were quick to offer statements of condolence to his family and to draw attention to the barbarity of his death. owever, Senor said Iraqi police arrested Berg in Mosul on March 24 because local authorities believed he may have been involved in "suspicious activities."
Being associated with telecom in that part of the world might be considered that.
Senor refused to say more, citing the sensitivity of the case. But he did confirm that the Americans were aware Berg was in custody. "U.S. authorities were notified," he said. "The FBI visited Mr. Berg on three occasions and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activity."
So why ask the Iraqis to spring him? And why three visits?
In a statement, the FBI said that its agents "encouraged him to accept (the) ... offer to facilitate his safe passage out of Iraq. Mr. Berg refused these offers." Berg was released April 6 and checked into the Baghdad hotel. Senor referred questions about the reason for Berg's detention to the Iraqi police. In Mosul, however, police told the AP they had no knowledge of the Berg case. Police official Safwan Talal said the only American arrested there in recent months was a woman who was released soon afterward.
"We can say no more, effendi!"
Berg told his family that U.S. officials took custody of him soon after his arrest and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer, his father said. Kimmitt said U.S. forces kept tabs on Berg during his confinement to make sure he was being fed and properly treated because "he was an American citizen." But the three FBI visits suggest American authorities were concerned about more than Berg's well-being. They may have had their own suspicions about what the young American was doing in Iraq. During a briefing Wednesday, Senor confirmed that Berg had registered with the U.S. Consulate in Baghdad but insisted he "was not a U.S. government employee, he has no affiliation with the coalition and to our knowledge he has no affiliation with any Coalition Provisional Authority contractor." He also stated that Berg "was at no time under the jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces." However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network. "Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S." It was unclear whether the contract was revoked.
FBI agents visited Berg's parents March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally. The Bergs claimed the State Department told them their son "is currently detained in Mosul, Iraq, by the United States military" and that American diplomats "no longer" had "any authority or power to intervene" on his behalf. Berg was released the day after the lawsuit was filed. His family said he told them he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9 - when violence flared in Iraq because of the U.S. Marine siege of Fallujah and a Shiite uprising in the south. Several days later, however, diplomats received an e-mail from Berg's family that "noted he had not been in contact," Shannon said. On April 14, the consulate sent a private contractor to the Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad, where Berg was believed to be staying, to see if he was still there. "The people we talked to at the hotel didn't remember him being there," Shannon said. Diplomats then alerted the U.S. military to be on the lookout for him.
Lost track of him after the release? Hmmm.
But hotel staffers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg stayed in room 602 from April 6 until April 10. One of them said Berg lived in the same room during an earlier visit, which the employee could not remember. An employee described Berg as a "nice guy" who "always smiled and said hello," unlike other foreign guests. "Once he told me, 'I'd like to learn Arabic.'" "He was very sportive - had muscles - and liked the Internet," another hotel worker recalled. "He usually left the hotel in the morning and returned late, around 10 p.m., usually carrying a sack of beer and mineral water."
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 12:30:22 AM ||
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#1
I hate to say this, but Mr. Berg (the deceased, younger version) is beginning to sound like a bit of a flake.
Posted by: Patrick Phillips ||
05/13/2004 9:49 Comments ||
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#2
It seems to me that everytime something bad happens everyone is so quik to point the finger. I just find it interesting that now that an American was brutaly murdered, and we all saw, the government is quik to explain what a flake and how unrelable Burg was. Almost as if they are trying to justify what has happend to him. It all seems to me that they are just trying to protect their behinds, and pray that they don't loose even more war support than they already have in the last months.
#3
I don't think they're dumping on him; I think they're explaining why they couldn't protect him.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 10:15 Comments ||
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#4
It seems to me that everytime something bad happens everyone is so quik to point the finger
Almost as if they are trying to justify what has happend to him. It all seems to me that they are just trying to protect their behinds
It seems to me that everytime something bad happens, shitheads like Anon1023 are so quick to point the finger, almost as if they are trying to justify what Islamonazi terorists do. It seems to me that they are just trying to protect their behinds, and pray that people don't support the war even more than they have in the last months.
#5
Mr. Berg (the elder, undeceased version) is dumping his grief and anti-american political baggage on the US effort. I think it's only logical the US would respond. If not, charges of conspiracy and coverup would abound (and still will among the moonbats). Was that Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz cutting his head off?
/sarcasm
#6
Anon4813 was me...don't know what happened there....
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 10:37 Comments ||
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#7
I am honored to have two older brothers in active duty right now. One of them is currently serving right in the heart of the beast, Baghdad. The emails he has sent home has described the place as very similar to the old wild west.
I personally have a great deal of admiration for Nicholas Berg. He seems, by all accounts, to have embodied the best attributes of Western society in that on one hand, there seemed to be a genuine altruistic motivation to help the iraqi people get on their feet, while at the same time pursuing it through means of an entrepeneurial effort. However, even in a civilzed situation, to conduct business like the kind he was pursuing requires a good deal of handshaking and shmoozing, and dealing. In a place like Iraq, besides having to deal with the on-edge coalition that is just barely keeping the place under control, in a place where the government is referred to as "interim", and in a place where the people you are trying to make the deals with are from a society and a culture very different from the one he grew up in, it would have been very easy to have inadverdantly say the wrong thing, get tricked into meeting with the wrong people, or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The restless, questing, free spirit has always been America's greatest asset, and at the same time, carried with it the ultimate risk, from the Pilgrims who risked their lives to live in a new land, the the first colonials, to the westward expanding pioneers, to our astronauts. There are plentiful examples of those who died pursuing this way of life.
I have not yet seen the film of Nick Berg's murder, and don't know that I need to. While some people need in-your-face proof just who and what our enemy is, since 9/11, I have not had anything obscuring my view of who they are, and what needs to be done to stop them.
I didn't know Nicholas Berg and I couldn't say that he was a saint, but from what I have learned about him, I can say that he seemed to be a good man - not a greedy, carpetbagging opportunist (some media subtly, but insidiously, refer to him as a "businessman", which conjures up pictures more akin to middle-age, balding, suit-wearing types, not 26-year olds who spent time in Ghana helping those people to live a little better). The people who would smear him in this way are the same people who would smear Pat Tillman, who also made the ultimate sacrifice in the pursuit of bettering the world. These people are cynics, and are bitter that while they whine impotently for a better world, people like Nick Berg and Pat Tillman actually try to contribute to that effort - even at the greatest risk.
For what it's worth, I feel absolutely horrible for Nick Berg and his family. I wish I had some words of comfort for them, but none would be appropriate. We need more people lke him, people who truly search for the win-win solution of, " I want to help people and improve their quality of life, and at the same time, fulfill my own ambitions and pusuits." May his family be comforted among the other mourners of zion, and may G-d rest his soul.
Posted by: Ken B. ||
05/13/2004 12:57 Comments ||
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Six militants have been killed and one soldier hurt in the recently-launched âSilver Strikeâ operation, put together to clear militants from the Poonch border districtâs Surankote sector, Brigadier M K Kushwaha told reporters on Wednesday. The army plans to clear the entire Surankote-Darasangla belt of militants by the end of May. Their intelligence suggests that the militants may have set up hideouts and bunkers in the area, Brigadier Kushwaha, who heads the operation, said. The army used the latest surveillance equipment to learn the pattern of militant movement, Kushwaha said. After the pattern was established and intelligence corroborated, the special forces and Romeo force moved in. Two militants, Yassa bhai and Arbai of the Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen and Hizb-e-Islami were killed following a 24-hour operation early Wednesday, he said, adding that this brought the total number of militants killed in this operation to six. One soldier was injured in the incident and one militant, who was injured in the battle, escaped, he said.
Kushwaha said special forces would be used in a pattern similar to that used in last yearâs operation, Sarp-Vinash, in the Hill Kaka belt of Surankote area of Poonch district. That operation had cleared the Hill Kaka area in Surankote and claimed the lives of 65 militants. Kushwaha said that the morale of militants was down and they were on the run following the ceasefire between India and Pakistan and the construction of electric fencing on the border.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/13/2004 12:28:28 AM ||
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#1
Kashmir - THats the most likely place to gain a "glowing" environment.
Israeli forces have pulled out of Gaza City after two days of clashes with Palestinian militants in the Zeitoun neighbourhood. The move came after a deal was agreed for militants to hand over the remains of six Israeli soldiers killed when their vehicle was blown up on Tuesday. The Israeli military later confirmed they had received the soldiersâ remains - a condition for the pull-out. But violence continued overnight in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip. Witnesses said seven Palestinians were killed in an Israeli air strike on the Rafah refugee camp. The Israeli army says that the dead were among a group of people who were preparing to plant explosive devices. The Israeli air strike came hours after a bomb attack on an Israeli armoured vehicle near Rafah left five soldiers dead. The Islamic Jihad militant group claimed responsibility for the attack on the Israeli personnel carrier.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/13/2004 12:20:29 AM ||
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Mohammad Kaleq Faruqi, chairman of the decision-making council of Hizb-e Islami, and other members of the council on 11 May obtained voter-registration cards for the upcoming presidential and parliamentary elections, Afghanistan Television reported. Faruqi said that all members of Hizb-e Islami in all provinces of Afghanistan will take part in the elections scheduled for September. The United States has labeled Hizb-e Islami leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar a terrorist. Recently, however, Faruqi and other members of the radical party have held talks with Afghan Transitional Administration Chairman Hamid Karzai and other Afghan leaders.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
Things must not be going well for Hek and the Hard-boyz.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 11:38 Comments ||
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#2
I'd rather they be dead than voting. How about a compromise? Texas and Chicago Dems have proven the dead can vote....
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 11:57 Comments ||
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#3
Hard to say, Hek's gents may be part of the Olympic calf head stealin team.
I have the video; it's every bit as gruesome as claimed.
Posted by: JR ||
05/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
The other day, while researching the Winter Soldier meetings, I ran across a NRO article by Thomas Mackubin. His article encouraged me to add the Classic Greek word thumos to my vocabulary.
<B>Thumos is the emotion that I think Ronald Reagan and the United States Military felt after the Beirut bombing (but it was not felt by Congress, American people or our media.) I think the military felt thumos again after Somalia, WTC 1, Khobar Towers, the USS Cole (but the President, Congress, the American People and the American media once felt thumos only about the Tailhook scandal.) The president and many of the American people felt thumos collectively on 9/11, but much of the media felt something else - possibly overwhelming sympathy for our enemies.
Anyway, the media is now trying to stir up some thumos against our soldiers, but I still feel only furor towards Sadr, the Iranians, Syrians, Baathists. I think our troops feel the emotion that I feel.
It is awful tempting to try to use the beheading to try to turn the tide of thumos (this comment has probably doubled the total number of times that thumos has been used since Homer's death.) I don't know if that should be done, though. It seems bad to capitalize on his death, but maybe that's what our public needs. I saw video of a Israeli EMT trying to resuscitate a stricken child and heard that Sadaam had kept a couple of thousand elementary school kids in some place that probably resembled the black hole of Calcutta about a year ago. I really haven't needed another hit of white anger since. Maybe Americans watch so many violent movies that they are unaffected by mutilated corpses swinging from a bridge.
While I am against instituting the draft, because I don't feel that a DI should have to teach respect and discipline to some punk that his parents have spoiled, I wouldn't mind seeing all American eighteen year olds get kicked out of the country for a year to see why America is good. Rumspinga seems to work for the Amish and I think that mature adults probably return from Mormon missions. Yes, I know that the rich Transis would just send their kids a yearlong holiday, but at many of those punks aren't salvageable anyway. If a section of our youth had to earn a living for a year overseas or South of the Border, they might be able to make act more maturely in college when they got back. On the whole, I think that many of them would be less annoying.
[/rant]
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/13/2004 3:41 Comments ||
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#2
SKEPTISM
There are a few points I noticed, I have never seen a man beheaded before but I have seen how chicken and sheep are being butched, thats awfully bloody the blood is pumped out by every heartbeat and creates a pool of blood.
Now looking skeptically at the pictures that beheaded man 1) has not much blood or 2) he must have been death long before beheading otherwise the blood would spout and cause a pool of blood.
Another point is this film could be easily faked, Hollywood can create some special effects that unables you to separate it from real ones.
It's not that I think that Arabs are not capable of producing such cruelty, but where is the firm evidence that this film is authentic?
At least it's timing is very welcome to Bush and Rummy, must be coincidence!
Posted by: Murat ||
05/13/2004 7:27 Comments ||
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#3
I want to see the Democrats calling for a draft before the election. Shouldn't Karl Rove be paying for commercials with the Dem's calling for the draft?
heh..heh...the thought of the peace-love generation supporting a presidential candidate calling for a draft is sooo rich.
#4
Murat, do you think they made the head at Madame Tussauds? Maybe you should call them and ask. Maybe they also made Daniel Pearl's head too. And maybe those Israeli body parts that the terrorists were playing with yesterday were fake. And I bet the Twin Towers are still standing. All of those people jumping out of windows - fake!
(1) Kindly get yourself sodomized by a two-dicked mule.
(2) Try...just try for one fucking minute...to remember that the US media is highlighting the Berg story just long enough to tie it to Abu Ghraib in the mind of credulous leftist asshats like yourself - at which point it will be flushed down the LLL Memory Hole along with images of Daniel Pearl, the people who jumped from the WTC, and the Koranimals who screeched and capered with joy in the streeets of Ramallah on 9/11.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) ||
05/13/2004 7:54 Comments ||
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#6
Murat - Real, fake, it really doesn't matter. Soon we'll destroy Islam and nothing will slow the process.
#7
What you see on that disgusting video is what the Islamists' want to do to all of you infidels and your families. This is a war of civilizations even if no one in authority will admit to it, and we need to take the gloves off.
I'm partial to Neutron bombs myself.
#8
Well the CIA knows a lot of PSY-OPS, the propaganda machine is rolling on, a beheaded American is a nice picture to divert attention from the Abu Graib / Guantanomo Soddom and Gomora
Posted by: Murat ||
05/13/2004 8:35 Comments ||
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#9
"CIA...PSY-OPS" ?????
You know something Murat that separates you from the rest of us is most of us would feel just as disgusted if your head was served up on a plate. Only truly sick people like yourself take delight in the suffering of man.
#10
I am sure the tide of anger is building. The problem is the only known way to defeat terrorists is the slow and steady way, cell by cell. The slowness of the process gives the enemy plenty of time to commit new outrages, including the widely expected WMD attack in the US. We need to find a faster way to defeat this monster. ("Faster please.") There's no excuse for Zarqawi to be still running free in Iraq.
#11
Soddom and Gomora? I didn't think you believed in the Jewish scriptures Murat.
Posted by: Charles ||
05/13/2004 9:23 Comments ||
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#12
Murat,
You are projecting again. It is the left that doesn't want the Abu Ghraib story to come out in full primarily because of the faked/doctored/planted photos in circulation.
Once the whole story is out, you will look like a jihadi yourself trying to explain away how those photos made it in the public sphere without the source being ascertained.
God, I love the first amendment. Sorta like placing a transponder on every leftist, ain't it?
#13
SH - did you know that thymos (or thumos, my greek is pretty bad) is the root word in disthymia (mild depression) hyperthymia (mild mania) etc? Im fascinated by the concept, and the political implications - Im mainly familiar from Fukiyama's hegelian "The end of history and the last man" Id like to discuss it more, but not on this thread.
#14
Murat, has it ever occurred to you that you're a disgusting piece of shit?
Because, really, you are.
where is the firm evidence that this film is authentic?
I believe the man's decapitated body is evidence enough.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 9:45 Comments ||
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#15
#12 virginian, could you kindly indicate which side you mean in your reference to 'terrorists'. I used to be clear that 'terrorist' meant darker, bearded foreigners, but it could now also mean white people who kill POW's & set dogs on them in their cell, after invading their country. The savages are clearly now on both sides, one side is covert in their deeds; another side is somewhat more open about their acts of vengeance & retribution for their countrymen... Congratulations for what you have done to the world USA & kiss goodbye to my previous support and sympathy for 9/11. So big, so rich, so many weapons! Not so smart though...
#17
Fred - please leave Murat's droppings in the thread, so anyone thinking this Piece of Shit can be conversed/dealt with on a human basis is shown the truth
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/13/2004 10:41 Comments ||
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#18
FWIW I have never EVER previously been Anti American, but you are so out of order at the moment that I currently feel this way. It is based on your actions and approach, so that seems fair. Cause and reaction.
quote >>women deserves to be raped because she is wearing a mini-skirt and spiked heels<<
You best ask your professional soldiers in that prison to answer that; I'm sure they will have the answer on such issues... Maybe ask for the pictures? Good 'ol boys doing it for the good of us all...
#20
Murat, try to bear the burden of the name of proud and brave French general in better way... there is no need to think that this horrible, savage, middle-aged video was faked... produced in Hollywood just like "Terminator".
Cruelty like that is coming from extremists born in another culture, living a totally different life, with a complete disregard for human life, thirst of power and blind faith in Allah.
Neverthless, I agree with you On one point .
That video was surely in the hands of someone since long... Usa administration have used it cinically, letting it pass trough medias at the proper hour to make public forget previous days' infos about tortures made in United states.
But that's war and that's life.
It's slightly hypocrit talkin' about democracy and freedom while using the ancient system called "propaganda"; it's very dangerous to underestimate enemy's power like Rummy did (cause he is too far from arabs' mind - Azcat, you'll never destroy Islam... only millenia can...) sending just 150.000 men on iraqi ground; it's impossible to have freedom, laicity and democracy in iraq, or wherever outside West, just snapping fingers or fanning money on the face of people.
Those are the mistakes America is doing right now.
I really wish, as italian, as Christian, as western man after french revolution, that you're not going to pay these wrong doings too much. And Us with you.
over at www.freerepublic.com , which strongly suggests the possibility that the Berg video was edited by about 1:35 to remove a fair amount of the actual murder.
In any event, edited or not, there is still a dead American - flaky or not - whose family grieves him this morning because he was killed by a pack of inhuman monsters. That, sir, is not faked.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/13/2004 11:43 Comments ||
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#22
Murat's asking for a fatwa.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/13/2004 11:45 Comments ||
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#23
Diesele, let me explain one of the root causes of your anger.
On 9/11 we watched horrified. We were knocked down.
Then we got up, dusted ourselves off, and said simply, "okay, mister, if that's how you want it, that's how you'll get it."
Whereas you (I'm guessing by your name that you're German, please correct me) had thought that we would spend our time asking, "why do they hate us so?" And then contemplate the answer.
We have an answer: they hate us because they adhere to a failed way of life, a failed culture, and a failed religious outlook.
That isn't the answer you Europeans wanted us to come up with. You want us to blame ourselves, not them. And that's about when your sympathy for us (such as it was) evaporated.
Allies are useful to the extent that they are allied. It is clear that the American worldview and the worldview of the European left are incompatible. Blame whoever you want, but one useful thing about the horrible tragedy of 9/11 is that we understand today who are true friends are. And aren't.
And Americans are rather peculiar about friendship. We become truly enraged when friends stab us in the back. I recognize that Europeans might think differently about this, perhaps in your world it's okay for friends to cut deals on the side to hurt you. After all, it's just words, and peace is the most important thing for you, eh?
Not for us. Peace is secondary to honor. We'll fight the terrorists because we know we must to survive. We'll never blame ourselves for what terrorists do. And we'll never, ever trust or admire again those who claim they were our friends but who let us down, who spit on us.
The events post 9/11 have been an epiphany for a number of Americans. We know who our friends are.
You're not one of them.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/13/2004 12:08 Comments ||
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#24
Steve W - My remark about Mike K in #40 applies to you as well. Thanks.
#25
Nice MuRat. Hit bottom....keep digging. That's right....it's all a CIA plot to put an evil face on peace loving moose-limbs. What a hole.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/13/2004 12:11 Comments ||
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#26
Murat:1985,Muslim terrorists kidnapped and tortured to death the CIA station chief in Beirut,guy named bill buckley.They mailed the videotape to the US State Department.Don't you SEE that Muslims have been using terror for DECADES before the Iraq war?
#27
I had a thought. Somebody get buddy-buddy with Muridiot. I know it's hard. But for the cause it would be important.
As a good German, (I'm 1/2 German, so I uunderstand the "culture")
he likes the local pub for a good brew. Get him under the influence of a couple of steins of good lager.
Then, see if he will admit what he really thinks: The CIA planted a monitoring device in one of his teeth the last time he had dental work!
#28
Response to Diesele: I should have been more specific than using the word "terrorists". What I meant was OUR (USA) enemies, Al Qaeda, etc. My view is simpler than that of some here. They attacked us. We need to do whatever it takes to hunt them down and kill them. That involves nasty business. It's the Darwinian law of the jungle. Us or them. I hope you (wherever you are) never have to feel that way, and if we succeed maybe you won't.
#29
Murat , even though u are blinded by your stupid outlook on life , please place a blindfold over your head then jump off a very tall building . thanks in advance .
#30
Question for you Diesele. If your nominal "allies" wont help you protect you when you are attacked or need their help in some matter, or worse set themselves actively against you in every arena from the military actions to calling for the removal of your governments elected officials...are they still your "allies"?
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 13:41 Comments ||
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#33
Money quote from the "Europe" article:
"Americans just don't trust Europe's political judgment. Appeasement is its second nature. Europeans have never met a rulerâHitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Qaddafi, Khomeini, Saddam Husseinâthey didn't think could be softened up by concessions. Europeans tell Americans that in response to September 11 they should deal with the "root causes" of Muslim anger. Jacksonians see this as a call to pay Danegeldâto let the world know that if some people don't like our foreign policy, all they have to do is kill a few thousand American civilians and we will try harder to please them. Europeans think this is statesmanship. Jacksonians think it's pathetic."
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 13:50 Comments ||
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#34
The world is long tired of your might & wealth
Wrong Diesele Jealous is more like it and if anyone else had it, I guarantee they would abuse it beyond belief. How do you think the world would be if the tables were turned and the Arab world had our might and wealth. You'd be dead or on your knees praying to Allan.
Americans are learning to get a backbone again and stop cowering to Old Europe. We really don't need you but you definately need us. Yeah - it wouldn't be as convienent or cute without you but we could definately make things go our way.
Old Europe used to have significance in world events but they wasted it. Now they are only good for Techno music, fashion designs and food. They have little more to offer. Don't tell me they are significant either. You can't even defend or feed yourselves. Why should we be concerned what a country smaller than most of our states thinks anyway? Size does matter in the real world - thats why Old Europe mattered at one time and why they don't now.
Old Europe is slowly morphing into a parasitic society on America just like the Arab world.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
05/13/2004 13:58 Comments ||
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#35
Anonymous4827,
You are exactly right. It is frightening to see the overt love of fascism (real and expressed by Baathists) and theocratic mass murdering-fanaticism (by the Islamofascists) on the part of Diesele and Murat. If Bush was the intolerant moral equivalent to the jihadis that Diesele is insinuating, he'd be begging for his life and claiming that he "understood" our "anger." The fact that he knows better, that indeed the U.S. is fighting for the good things of Western Civilization, is a sign of his foul moral evil.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/14/2004 10:08 Comments ||
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#36
Sorry, my bad, I forgot that Diesele was a UK wanker.
Sanctimonious Arnold Rimmer types like D. should get a life.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/14/2004 10:49 Comments ||
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#37
I'll revise that:
The United Kingdom sat on its fundament and did nothing while Germany expanded, it did not even support France in 1936 when kicking Hitler out of the Rhineland would have stopped him once and for all.
Diesele wants that same appeasement of fascism today, with the same results.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/14/2004 10:50 Comments ||
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#38
"At least it's timing is very welcome to Bush and Rummy, must be coincidence!"
Which is what makes the notion that this video is the doing of Hollywood, utterly laughable. The entire U.S. entertainment industry, including Hollywood and the New York TV establishment, absolutely LOATHES Bush. They would rather saw off their own heads, than do anything that might conceivably help him win re-election.
No, this video shows the true face of Islam by peeling away the layers of deception which mask its essence: hatred, ignorance, and a nihilistic fascination with violent death.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/13/2004 8:05 Comments ||
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#39
You may have a point there Murat,
That question can only be answered in a closely monitored scientific experiment. I propose to take the nearest useless trash (Turks) and perform an elegant experiment. I am sure many volunteers can be found to tie up and saw through Turkish heads, especially among the Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, and it would seem, increasing numbers of Americans.
I think a resonable statistical conclusion can be inferred after this experiment is repeated 50 million times. Only then can the age old question be answered: Are Turks more like chickens and sheep, or monkeys and pigs. Allahu Akbar, MF.
Posted by: ed ||
05/13/2004 8:43 Comments ||
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#40
Murat, there is a lot of blood in the video. The brown mats (mosque rec room?) help to obscure it. Beyond that, what explanation do you have for the body that's coming home in two pieces?
#41
Liberalhawk> thymos (or thumos, my greek is pretty bad)
There's no single specific Greek-Latin transcribing system to my knowledge, and I've seen the Greek letter 'Ypsilon' transcribed as either y or u by different people -- or even by the same people at different points. The main reason for that, I guess, is that the lowercase Greek Y doesn't look like 'y' but like 'u' instead. (and in modern times pronounced like 'i', though in ancient times it was instead pronounced like english 'oo', I believe)
Myself, I think I prefer transcribing it as 'y' when it stands alone, but as 'u' when using it in the two-letter combination 'ou'. But either is ofcourse acceptable.
#42
Murat's just upset that one form of his antiamericanism (everything the USA does is fake) has distracted him from the other form: his sexual fantasies of dead Americans.
Same thing happened when the "Kurds" bombed Istanbul. The Kurds just HAD to have done it, not al-Qaeda, despite arrests and claims of responsibility. Even after it was very obvious, it was far too important to Murat to blame the Kurds. Well, Murat, go ahead and blame them all you want--they've a state now, you'll just have to live with that. Now go back to your chicken-choking, if you can.
Aris is quite right: y or u for upsilon except in combination with o. But 'u' is what professional classicists use in all circumstances these days, and since I'm not one, I like 'y'.
Oh, Diesele, whatever will we do without your "sympathy"? People like you were worthless before, and simply proclaiming your worthlesness now changes nothing.
#44
BMN - you have hit the nail on the head and again exposed the true nature of how certain Americans really think. You call me 'worthless', and that sums up the world perception of Americans as selfish consumers who are not interested if it does not fit into their egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent ways. I would be mortified if someone said they no longer had any sympathy with me after I had lost thousands of innocent countrymen in a terrorist attack. You dont even care. I think that proves my point in the most clear way possible. I may not be American, but that does not make me worthless. Are you starting to get it? The world is bigger than the USA, and you 'world police' guys are f'in it up for everyone in the name of 'freedom'. How my views have changed - you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day - just like those other terrorists we already abhor...
#45
Diesele's "sympathy" = a few empty platitudes immediately post 9-11 (replete with "you had it coming to you" subtext), rapidly followed by a full reversion to pervasive knee-jerk anti-Americanism.
#46
MURAT - SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE SAVAGE.
SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR RELIGION.
SILENCE/DENIAL = ACQUIESCENCE
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
05/13/2004 10:38 Comments ||
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#47
you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day
And what do YOU do, Diesele? Why should I be mortified that your fake sympathy is admitted to be fake? What good was your sympathy anyway? Americans are past the point of pretending "allies" like you are actually allies.
Don't worry, Diesele, the nasty US will be leaving your continent soon. Then all your problems will magically go away. You'll see.
#48
BMN,
No doubt. For my taste, we can't leave fast enough. I am sure all their problems will go away after that. The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris
Let us also minimize contact and trade with them to the absolute minimum.
Diesele, care to tell us where you are from so that we can properly make fun of you?
Posted by: ed ||
05/13/2004 10:51 Comments ||
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#49
>>Americans are past the point of pretending "allies" like you are actually allies<<
I find that very sad. Allies used to be a good thing...in the past. Our alliance used to work well for both, until one got way too big for his boots. Insular; alone. Not good words...historically. Count your guns and dig on in.
#50
I really shouldnt tell you, but I'm from the UK (gets sucked into immediate pigeonhole...whoooshhhh). And dont begrudge the eventual WW2 support now - you really were the decent good guys back then. Proper allies - like the still decent Canadians and Poles that helped us out too...
#51
Hey guys leave those swear word, let's face the facts here, you are the ones occupying Iraq and not vice versa. Don't play that crap of victims.
If that beheading is real, it's inhumane and the perpetraters deserve hell. However two points are not clear, the men on the background have covered faces, you can't see whether they are Arabs or CIA, secondly Al Zarkawi or whatever the name of that fuck is a Jordanian is pointed as being behind it.
So don't play the victim, Iraq and Iraqies are the victim, America as occupier is the agressor, period.
Posted by: Murat ||
05/13/2004 11:04 Comments ||
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#52
Here's what Diesele and Murat have in common: the Berg beheading reminds them of how evil America is.
Naive in #30 - was that some kind of a threat? Another big bully boy style threat? The world is long tired of your might & wealth and its application in bullying others. You need to get people ON SIDE with words and deeds; this policy of threats & invasions is blowing up in your faces. Not all will ever agree or toe your line or do what pleases your interests best...particularly all those funny foreigners.
When all you "funny foreigners" are being measured for your burkas, you'll come screaming to us for help. Don't get upset when we say, "told you so."
Posted by: Infidel Bob ||
05/13/2004 12:11 Comments ||
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#57
Diesele is the one throwing the bombs. Bully boys my ass. Romans were bully boys, Nazi were bully boys, NVN commies were bully boys, Chinese commies, baathist thugs, jihadie cut-throats, Talabanies, South American drug cartels, Japanese bushidos. Bullies all pointy head.
BTW, do your roommates have the same memory lapse as you?
#58
Conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this video. "But there's an 11-hour gap in the time stamp!" And such.
But I'm sure the video is real and Berg was decapitated. It's more than likely, however, that he wasn't killed on tape. Like in the case of Daniel Pearlthe cameraman screwed up. He missed the "money shot" and so the killers had to reenact the murder.
#59
As more and more members of the senate open their mouths and spew appeasment, it is clear to me that those five masked cowards who butchered Mr Berg could be stand-ins for any 5 Democrat Senators except Miller or Lieberman, not just the 5 I mentioned yesterday. Anybody has another Dem to exempt? Anybody hear from Bayh or Ben Nelson of NEBRASKA? They have shown some sense in the past.
#61
Manco: That video was surely in the hands of someone since long... Usa administration have used it cinically, letting it pass trough medias at the proper hour to make public forget previous days' infos about tortures made in United states.
There is no evidence to support that assertion. The video first appeared on a jihadi website operated, I believe, out of Egypt.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 13:16 Comments ||
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#62
Mancocapac--
Un po' di dietrologia? Sicuramente italiano. Purtroppo, e veramente ci dispiace, ma voi italiani e difatti voi europei, state per pagare comunque. Sei stato mai in Tor' Bella Monaca a Roma?
I think we are seeing a cultural difference. French/German and to some degree English view allies in a different context from the US.
In the US, we stand by our allies whether they are weak or strong, because they are our allies (ie Israel) The long term benefit is that we get to understand who will honor and who won't honor their alliances (which is why we pee on the french)
Europeans look at the practical matter of whether an ally can benefit them, usually through strength or weakness of the ally.
The short term gives the Europeans an advantage here, but in terms of US culture, you arent allies at all - from our viewpoint, you have violated the alliance, and that will take decades to recover if it ever does.
Alternately we may use you in your own terms, you are weak and by the way you play the game, you only get symbolic say in anything, and we will ignore you as it pleases us. We can do that because we understand your culture lmao...
#64
Steve White â at least some introspection and self analysis from your side of the pond! Really good to read that lucid post.
The other posts remain arrogant and mule stubborn unfortunately â I find it scary that people post SO the wrong sentiments here, and do it so openly. These sentiments chill many of us previously supportive Europeans (not that you give a hoot...of course). Most of you gung-hoâs wont ever understand that âstep-backâ from us though â there is the rub. The gulf; the new chasm between us, sad as it is. Steve sees it though (thank God!)
Do me a favour, kindly drop the âheâs a Germanâ xenophobic trip regarding me. Some of you are, err, silly enough to miss my post stating Iâm from the UK. And NO I do not blindly support previous âbest matesâ WHEN THEY ARE TOTALLY WRONG! An allegiance is not about that â although you again try to bully and demand it as your RIGHT!
The most naive and dangerous thing that simple idiot Bush has said was âyou are either with us or against usâ. So many of you here seem to lap that statement up, beat your chests but do not even realise that this was the most simplistic and undiplomatic thing to say. Childish almost. Consider the possibility that there are a thousand viewpoints in-between on the matter - you may then once again be able to start thinking about communicating with the world without the violence.
Thatâs my last post (as I have tons of work to do!!!).
PS. Ernest I promise to read that article next as I dont like feeling this way towards you lot after all! I could also be wrong or misguided in these views - I think it good we should ALL consider that possibility, particularly if people are dying and the world seems to be in a downward decaying spiral...
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 13:56 Comments ||
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#66
Bush wasn't egging us on to war...
He's holding us back
Absolutely true. God help us all if the current approach fails ... the gloves really will come off then.
I will be damned if I'll wear a burqa, or if I will stand by and let murderous Islamacists or any other brand of murderous thug hijack my society and the things I hold dear.
I hold my life dear, but not as dear as my honor and the future of younger generations.
#67
The most naive and dangerous thing that simple idiot Bush has said was âyou are either with us or against usâ. So many of you here seem to lap that statement up, beat your chests but do not even realise that this was the most simplistic and undiplomatic thing to say. Childish almost. Consider the possibility that there are a thousand viewpoints in-between on the matter - you may then once again be able to start thinking about communicating with the world without the violence.
So where do we compromise with people who want to enslave or kill us all? How do you negotiate with that? What's the "in-between" viewpoint?
Do we let them just enslave/kill some of us? Or do we negotiate around the level of enslavement?
Face it, just because it's "simplistic" doesn't make it wrong. Hell, in this case "simplistic" is almost certainly correct.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/13/2004 14:57 Comments ||
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#68
Quote from some dumbass in the UK: Proper allies - like the still decent Canadians and Poles
Funny you should say that. I'm a Canadian, born in Poland, yet I disagree with you on everything you said. Am I still a decent, proper ally???
you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day
And you, mine. Now go appease some dictator at the UN. You have plenty to choose from.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/13/2004 15:00 Comments ||
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#69
Iraq was a dictatorship. Saddam didn't speak for the Iraqi people he brutally subjicated them. To hear Murat and Diesel talk it sounds as if Iraq was Sweden with oil.
Dictatorships should be overthrown. Power to the people baby.
Thanks, you may have noticed some of the posters here calling themselves "Jacksonians." This is explained in the article "THE JACKSONIAN TRADITION."
The four basic foreign policy traditions, according to Mead, are named after famous American statesmen.
Wilsonianism-This one is easy, named after Woodrow Wilson. It is the school that stresses that the most important thing for the U.S. to do is to promote international law and order through multilateral agreements, even at the cost of direct U.S. liberties and interests. Most current U.S. State Department careerists are Wilsonian.
HAMILTONIANS: Hamiltonians (after the first American Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton) believe in multilateralism also, but of a mercantile kind that promotes American trade and commerce. They also believe in strong Federal spending on infrastructure and defense to protect said interests. Dick Cheney and the classical stance of the Republican Party is Hamiltonian.
JEFFERSONIAN: (after the third U.S. President, Thomas Jefferson). Jeffersonians stress the importance of ownership of land and the virtue of work. In foreign policy, while they will go for surgical strikes against enemies (see the Barbary Coast wars of 1805 and 1815, even then the U.S. fought against Islamic lawlessness) they generally abhor extended conflict and advocate diplomacy and economic sanctions of enemies. As President, Jimmy Carter was the last real Jeffersonian. (after his presidency, he became a pacifistic Wilsonian)
And then there is Jacksonianism, the folk culture of the U.S. ...
Jacksonianism is not simply a school of foreign policy, in many ways it is a way of life for us. Read the article! (g) (There is one mistake there, Jackson was the 7th, not the 6th, president)
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/13/2004 22:19 Comments ||
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#71
Diesele,
Wow, I am amazed at your posts ...
You chose this thread, about this horrible decapitation of an innocent civilian to express your views that Americans are childish, selfish, egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent and arrogant - and need to step back and have some introspection.
No where do you mention the topic of the thread, the decapitation! Except in sligh comments that only seem to be meant as an attack.
Your hypocrisy is astounding ... in a thread about the killing of an innocent human (and the possibility that it was far more barbaric than first thought) you never mention this, but instead lash out at America and Americans while telling them that they need to step back and think about things.
I hate to tell you this, but your posts and tone ⦠your approach, in this thread, are clearly some of the most egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent and arrogant I have ever seen.
I believe you are in need of a step back and introspection. Think over your tone and approach in this thread, your anger and utter disregard for a human innocent, all the while telling Americans that the behavior you exhibit is what is wrong with them â hypocrisy!
#72
[Ernest that article is indeed insightful. So accurate that I was chuckling, which I felt rather inappropriate! It understands that we fear bible bashing presidents as much as the self flaggelating peasants!!! We seemingly ask âwhatâs upâ, whilst âJacksoniansâ yell âget downâ. We should ALL read it. PS what is a "red" state and I wish I knew of Barney Fife!]
Back to comment on previous replies -
I am looking beyond the horrendous death of that poor man. Forgive me, but I am concerned more with the state of the world than the state of the individual that refused to leave. His death was revenge for US soldiers killing POWâs and bragging about it â the âcivilisedâ ruled by the Geneva convention setting dogs on POWâs, electrocuting them, killing them and icing the bodies to cover up etc etc. Everything Saddam did repeated by a section of the brave altruistic âfreedomâ givers. In fact, were my country ever invaded, I too hope that my countrymen would carry out such acts of dreadful violence against any foreign invader that was torturing me and killing civilians/POWâs behind closed doors, Note that Nick Bergâs callous slaughter was a RESPONSE; that kind of thing wasnât happening 6 months ago; consider some culpability in this depravity???
As for hypocrisy in me??? Absurd; see above. See tacit sanctioning of state terrorism by Israel â THAT is more like hypocrisy by those driven by selective application of the values of âfreedomâ & âdemocracyâ... It is also terrifying that the same person finds me âself-obsessedâ and âself-indulgentâ in these post that are essentially in defence of others that I perceive to be wronged, and those that will be wronged in future under current US rage & might. Those wrong assumptions of position and perceptions are so scary to an âoutsiderâ â especially one that has only just recently walked out of the room...
Bush and Blair should get on their hands and knees and plead for the UN to appoint an Islamic administration to sort out the mess in Iraq. You should again go home with your tail between your legs as in Vietnam. HOW MANY TIMES will you get away with murder? History repeatedly proves your arrogance and errors yet you all sit here saying âwe donât care what you thinkâ; âyou are old world orderâ; âyou Europeans have no backboneâ; âwe demand your blind support in all we doâ; âyou need our guns buddyâ. Have you still really no idea why the backlash & why so many are newly anti your values and your behaviour? Your hurt and anger and kicking out at me (for one) is because I and millions of others were already perceiving those sentiments and ways of thinking in you â YOU DONT GIVE A STUFF about us as rational thinking non US individuals, particularly the SECOND we start disagreeing with you, or suggesting caution. Thatâs not friendship or allegiance; thatâs a form of tyranny and so many postings here have made that patently, sadly obvious. Can you SEE why that puts us off you? Can you see we think you are out of control again? Did you see Rumsfeld grinning at the troops yesterday â does it GET much more insensitive than that at this moment? This will cost Blair his âpresidencyâ in the UK such is the embarrassment and disillusionment felt here. But then I clearly know you DONâT CARE about such external matters â so WE need to start caring â much to your disgust and developing hatred for us...
There has been enough systematic humiliation of Arabs by the US & Israel; I do not want another Nick Berg or another 9/11 (where I lost 3 friends). ONLY YOU CAN STOP THAT, if you have the will and the nous.
I really feel I have said what I need to say and will not antagonise you further here.
Yes, you're more afraid of decent human beings with a basic system of morality than you are of thugs like Hitler, Stalin and Saddam. Tell us something we do not know.
That "systematic humiliation" (in reality, self-defense) was the result of your country's mass murder of the Jews and the Arab/Palestinian collaboration with same. Thanks for showing your true anti-Semetic and genocidal colors. Was Daniel Pearl beheaded for Abu Ghraib? No, it is because he was a Jew, like Berg. We are well aware of the hatred that you have always felt towards that confession, and the spectacle of a citizen of the nation that spawned the worst monsters in human history (save Stalin and his boys) lecturing -us- on international morality is disgusting, to say the least.
We caught and punished those responsible for the prison mess, you couldn't even do that to the Nazis without our help. (and, save for a few Germans that hadn't castrated away their humanity, you didn't want to)
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
05/14/2004 9:38 Comments ||
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... In an interview with The New York Times today, police officer Sayyed Nabi Siddiqi says he was falsely accused of being a member of the Taliban last summer and spent some 40 days in detention at various U.S. bases in Afghanistan. He alleges he was subjected to beatings, sleep deprivation, and sexual abuse. Siddiqi said he was repeatedly photographed naked by his U.S. captors, like the Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghurayb prison. Siddiqi was released without charge. The U.S. Embassy in Kabul issued a statement today saying the U.S. military is investigating the case.
Afghan and international human rights groups say they have been investigating similar complaints about the U.S. treatment of Afghan detainees, long before the scandal over Iraqi prisoners surfaced. The Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission says it has received 44 complaints in recent months against various actions by U.S. forces. .... John Sifton, the Afghanistan researcher at Human Rights Watch, said some detainees who were released from U.S. custody told HRW they had been mistreated: ".... We have serious allegations from early, early, early in the conflict from 2001 and 2002 that prisoners captured in Afghanistan were beaten severely, stripped naked, [and] exposed to cold temperatures by U.S. forces. This was in many ways early warning signs to the U.S. military that it has problems detaining prisoners taken on the battlefield, but what we now know is that those lessons were not learned." ....
In March, the organization released a 59-page report about alleged abuses by U.S. forces in Afghanistan. The report concluded that U.S. forces operating in Afghanistan had arbitrarily detained civilians, used excessive force during arrests of noncombatants, and mistreated detainees. Sifton told RFE/RL that some allegations of mistreatment have been made by U.S. military personnel themselves: "There are members of the U.S. military who are concerned about what the U.S. intelligence and military service is doing, and they have leaked information to us about those problems." .... [Lieutenant General David] Barno, the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, acknowledged that the military has been looking into what he called "challenges and problems" at its holding facilities in Afghanistan. He said military authorities are investigating allegations of abuse, including three deaths. ... U.S. officials say about 300 Afghans suspected of having ties to the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, or other insurgent groups are being held in detention at Bagram. An unknown number of others are being held at eight to 10 other sites across the country.
Maybe we should just cut their heads off and be done with it?
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
Our humanity is proving to be our Achilles heel in the Islamist world. The complicit mainstream lapdog media is going to beat us over the head with allegations like this right up through November, while for the most part being apologists' for the real barbarians.
#2
What's interesting is that despite the allegations coming from years ago, they couldn't do squat to prove it. An allegation is just that, an allegation. Seems that they're not such hot stuff if the United States doesn't "cooperate" in investigating its own violations...
Why the primping, preening, and crowing in their fundraising letters on how important and competent they are as a moral policeman? Why all the delay?
#3
Can't produce any photos? My-my-my. Sorry Sayyed. The media has bigger fish to fry than pay attention to you. They are on a campaign for Rumsfedld's resignation now, and Kerry's election in November. Nothing else matters.
You see how important you really are. The interview with NYT was only for show.
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