Article

2022-05-17 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Russia fires TOS-1A thermobaric missiles at Ukrainian troops as generals try so save Russian offensive in eastern Ukraine

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Posted by Skidmark 2022-05-17 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11135 views ] Top

#1 Never served in the military myself, but I saw nothing out of the ordinary in the video. Hyperventilating?

BTW, DM, 'Generals try TO save Russian'...

Posted by Bobby 2022-05-17 02:01|| 2022-05-17 02:01|| Front Page Top

#2 We got all that elsewhere, my dear Deadeye Thrang5605. Do calm yourself and read the other articles — the really, really long ones with all the words. It’s all there and more. And some even reported from the Russian side, just like you keep demanding with your shockingly naughty words.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 02:01|| 2022-05-17 02:01|| Front Page Top

#3 Hyperventilating

In the headline, Bobby.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 02:05|| 2022-05-17 02:05|| Front Page Top

#4 Daily Mail is a complete joke. Their 'reporting' on Ukraine is nothing but MI6 disinformation and planted stories. This has been public knowledge for decades.

It's bizarre that Fred Pruitt would allow clowns to post such obvious Info Ops lies and bullshit on Rantburg.

Posted by Deadeye Thrang5605 2022-05-17 02:23|| 2022-05-17 02:23|| Front Page Top

#5 imagine the BS headline these buffoons would have published on May 9, 1945: "Germany ends combat mission in Berlin"
🤡

NYT, August 1945: "JAPAN ENDS COMBAT MISSIONS IN HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI"

Posted by Caesar Sforza7139 2022-05-17 02:29|| 2022-05-17 02:29|| Front Page Top

#6 Hilarious: "Putin's soldiers have so far failed to achieve their military objectives in eastern Ukraine..."

This, on the day of total capitulation by the most ferocious of Ukraine's Nazi shock troops, the Azov Battalion fuckers who started the whole mess in 2014.

Mariupol is FINALLY rid of these vermin -- all but a few dozen mutilated wrecks shuttled off to hospitals. The biggest story of the war so far, and this gutter tabloid, on orders from MI6, not only ignores it, they blatantly lie about it. Lovely.

Posted by Deadeye Thrang5605 2022-05-17 02:38|| 2022-05-17 02:38|| Front Page Top

#7 Heavy breathing modifiers deleted — I’m sure you have no problem imagining them for yourself, dear Reader

WTF does this attempt at sarcasm even mean?

Is this person trying to make fun of DM? Or DM/MI6's critics? Rantburg readers? Weird.

If the target of this weird sneering is DM, then presumably this person realizes what a shit rag it is. So why link to it in the first place?

Posted by Deadeye Thrang5605 2022-05-17 02:45|| 2022-05-17 02:45|| Front Page Top

#8 "You'll pay no attention to them..."
Growled Judy. "Okay, Auntie M."
"Just little guys hurtin'
Behind the Iron Curtain."
"Hmm... '83 Chateau d'Yquem?"

Posted by Josh McCoy8941 2022-05-17 03:51|| 2022-05-17 03:51|| Front Page Top

#9 It's bizarre that Fred Pruitt would allow clowns to post such obvious Info Ops lies and bullshit on Rantburg.

Frankly, you're the first person to complain the in five+ years we have been linking to the Daily Mail.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 06:51|| 2022-05-17 06:51|| Front Page Top

#10 TF does this attempt at sarcasm even mean?

Is this person trying to make fun of DM? Or DM/MI6's critics? Rantburg readers? Weird.

If the target of this weird sneering is DM, then presumably this person realizes what a shit rag it is. So why link to it in the first place?

It means the over-the-top shrill garbage hasn't been displayed, but you are welcome to click over and read what the Daily Mail wrote.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 06:53|| 2022-05-17 06:53|| Front Page Top

#11 Our new trolls are very unfamiliar with years and years of sarcasm at the Rant. It's deep and long and its compounding. Going on the fourth month, they're still behind the curve.

Posted by Procopius2k 2022-05-17 08:14|| 2022-05-17 08:14|| Front Page Top

#12 Trolls aside, If the Russians are using their thermobaric weapons, this is an escalation, not unlike they did in Georgia. They seem to be following the same model they used in Georgia. Attacking cities, then leaving them in the rubble with no real intent to occupy. They are going to be here a while, regardless of the misinformation. They know we dont have the stomach for a battalion size loss. We will stay out.

Posted by 49 Pan 2022-05-17 08:36|| 2022-05-17 08:36|| Front Page Top

#13 Love the pathetic attempts to spin the complete and total surrender by the Nazi Azov Battalion in the biggest and most important battle of the war so far.

Look at the press in the US and U.K. and compare it to coverage by publications in the rest of the world.

In Australia, Singapore, India, China, Greece, South Africa etc the leading media companies all use the correct term, "surrender." You can see photos of these battered, mutikated, thoroughly defeated scum, similar to the photos of the Nazi soldiers who surrendered at Stalingrad.

But in the propaganda-fueled USA and U.K. we get the following:
the brave "rescue" of "heroes"
an "end of their combat mission"
an "evacuation" of "heroes" after weeks of "successful Ukrainian counter-attacks"

🤡

Such obvious fucking liars.

So pathetic that the only way for us to get objective and reliable coverage is to seek foreign media outlets in countries like China or India. This is how you steal $60 billion with lies and misdirection.

were almost certainly concocted to cover up the announcement of the complete surrender of the last remnants of nazi #AzovBattalion i

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 09:11|| 2022-05-17 09:11|| Front Page Top

#14 #12 We will stay out.
49 Pan

How us giving $60 billion to known Nazis "staying out"? Or maybe your "we" doesn't refer to Americans?

Biden and about 90% of Congress are plunging us Americans into this mess, head first.

So foolish. In Iraq we destroyed a third world country's entire infrastructure before we put any troops on the ground. Here we're sending some surplus junk to a fight in the front yard of a nuclear-armed Russia that hasn't even begun to use any of its awesome firepower against Ukraine. This is the world-beating stupidity of Biden and his Freakshow on display. Unbelievable.

But hey, it's early days. Let's see how much damage they can do when we add recession to hyperinflation and the price of unleaded hits $10 a gallon.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 09:20|| 2022-05-17 09:20|| Front Page Top

#15 Dude, the Russian clown government is calling EVERYONE "Nazi". Finns worry about Russian invasion -- NAZIS! Poles take in Ukrainian refugees and get supplies to the Ukrainian defenders -- NAZIS! Girl scouts insist on payment in advance for cookies -- NAZIS!

Sane people don't care anymore. It's just a word leftists and the Russian government (BIRM?) toss around thinking it has emotional weight. Except it has been used so much it just doesn't.

Stop crying wolf. Or just STFU.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 09:28|| 2022-05-17 09:28|| Front Page Top

#16 Glenn Greenwald has catalogued all examples of US and IK news outlets that correctly called Azov Battalion neo-Nazis for years suddenly adopting Newspeak and scrubbing all references to their fascist ideology and racist terrorizing.

@ggreenwald: "Western media spent years warning the Azov Battalion and related militias were not just neo-Nazis but were the most powerful neo-Nazi force in Europe given their integration into the military and state.

"That's now not only taboo to say but these same outlets have renounced this."

TIME magazine, Jan. 2021:
Like, share, recruit: How Ukraine's white-supremacist militia uses Facebook to radicalize and train new members https://ti.me/3qr2Oqn

"Back in 2015, when James Clapper wanted Obama to flood Ukraine with lethal arms -- something Obama opposed because, he said, Ukraine wasn't vital enough to the US -- I detailed the power of Azov using mainstream media sources. This is all now erased:

theintercept.com
Clapper Calls for Arming Ukrainian Forces: Who Would That Actually Empower?

"Azov's power doesn't justify a Russian invasion of Ukraine. But that doesn't make it irrelevant.

"At the very least, efforts should be made to prevent the massive amount of lethal arms flooding Ukraine ending up in their hands. And we shouldn't make stars of their adherents.

"Among so many examples, a Guardian article headlined: "Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat." It describes the "neo-Nazi leanings of many of its members."

You can't just re-write history when convenient.

theguardian.com
Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat
7:26 AM · Mar 25, 2022 Twitter

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 09:52|| 2022-05-17 09:52|| Front Page Top

#17 Frankly, you're the first person to complain the in five+ years we have been linking to the Daily Mail.

Hee, hee! I actually laughed out loud at that.

Posted by SteveS 2022-05-17 09:53|| 2022-05-17 09:53|| Front Page Top

#18 Stop crying wolf. Or just STFU.
🤡
So typical of you to desperately deny what every American and British outlet has reported for nearly ten years and what our own government and every human rights organization recognized.

The New York Times called them neo-Nazis. The Guardian did so. So did the Telegraph, Washington Post, ABC News, TIME magazine and nearly every other major news organization.

Fascist, far-right, racist, Nazi... use whatever term for racist and etho-nationalist organized terror you prefer.

But stop denying reality.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 09:58|| 2022-05-17 09:58|| Front Page Top

#19 Just learned that the rumor about the Russian capture of a retired USN Admiral was FALSE.

Posted by Besoeker 2022-05-17 10:03|| 2022-05-17 10:03|| Front Page Top

#20 Winkey, Not sure if your serious or just a trolling. Thermobarics kept us, I'll clarify--Troops, out of Georgia. Thermobarics dont burn all the bodies, its an over pressure system. Shatter the body at a cellular level. Second, calling the Ukrainians Nazis is nothing but propaganda that has stuck here in the US. The government is no more or less corrupt than the rest of the Eastern European countries.Stopping Russian expansion is important, if we can help by sending equipment, I'm in. there was a 300 million dollar contract with LockMart to make more Javelins. This is a good example of the money spend. We dont send much cash to Ukraine, we send equipment made in America, so the funding is pumped back into our economy. When we send troops, the cash flow starts.

Posted by 49 Pan 2022-05-17 10:03|| 2022-05-17 10:03|| Front Page Top

#21 Flinging around the Neo-Nazi and Nazi labels to justify your own ill-mannered behavior doesn't work, Comrade Wimpy

Posted by Frank G 2022-05-17 10:04|| 2022-05-17 10:04|| Front Page Top

#22 Well, to make it clearer: I don't care. The people they're fighting are also socialist racist ethno-supremacists. Putin funded (and sent troops to create) the "break-away republics", and some Ukrainians took up arms -- and unpleasant ideas -- while resisting.

Don't care. Putin made the mess. He created "Nazis" by reviving memories of the Holodomor. His invasion gave them an opportunity to be more than local thugs. He can end the invasion, stop supporting the terrorists in Eastern Ukraine, and the Azovs would just be local thugs again.

(And for that matter, he's sent Russian neo-Nazis to the Ukraine. Why aren't you condemning Russia for them?)

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 10:10|| 2022-05-17 10:10|| Front Page Top

#23 Just learned that the rumor about the Russian capture of a retired USN Admiral was FALSE.

You are a darling, Besoeker. Thank you!

For those who missed it yesterday, Besoeker is referring to Acapulco Joe’s triumphant comment yesterday:

https://iamamalaysian.com/2022/05/16/us-gen-eric-olson-british-ltc-john-bailey-nato-officers-surrendered-at-azovstal-steel-plant/

BREAKING! US Admiral Eric Olson–a highly decorated special ops commander–captured in Azovstal steel work

about which there was some skepticism here. Justified, as it turns out. Rantburg University, this place is sometimes called.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 10:11|| 2022-05-17 10:11|| Front Page Top

#24 49 Pan, your math is off. By a factor of 200.

We're talking about the biggest boondoggle ever, presided over by a corrupt US administration whose president actually intervened in Ukrainian politics in order to protect his and his son's million dollar per year payoff by Ukrainian thieves. YJCMTSU.

Again, this isn't $300 million. It's SIXTY BILLION.

This mind-bending lunacy is occurring while this same administration is iiterally destroying our economy.

Every single top economist now says what these assholes have done is a catastrophic mistake. Larry Summers, Ken Rogoff and all the other Democrat economists are saying we can't afford this shit. Jesus, even Ben Nernanke just came out and said we're now going to have stagflation.

Do the math. Face reality. This is the most insane policy that this demented Freakshow has come up with so far -- and they're just getting started.

The only rational response to which is, FUCK NO. Not with our money.

Get the fuck out of this shithole.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 10:16|| 2022-05-17 10:16|| Front Page Top

#25 Wait, are you all saying Daily Mail hypes opinions as facts? List examples please and show your work.

Posted by swksvolFF 2022-05-17 10:26|| 2022-05-17 10:26|| Front Page Top

#26 "Putin price hike"
😂

You guys are such saps. Biden and his freaks, Pelosi, McConnell and the rest of our incompetent and lying Congress is so obviously trying to distract us from their across-the-board failures with this pointless war.

"Russian expansionism" - LOL

This is just a civil war in a corner of SE Europe that doesn't remotely affect you and me. We have no vital interest, none, in that shithole. There is literally nothing that justifies us getting involved.

If anything we should be helping Russia. We need them against China. Instead we've created a Chinese-Russian-Indian alliance -- against us. Unbelievably stupid.

Stop being so naive. You're just being played by the stupidest, most corrupt and incompetent US administration in our history.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 10:29|| 2022-05-17 10:29|| Front Page Top

#27 After near a century of facing off COMMIES they are seen as way more bad than NAZIs who were only around from 1933-1945 along with another decade or 2 hiding in jungles in South America.
The hunt and execution of Che is still something we're proud off.

Perhaps a tune from the past might clue you in:

Sing a song of quetzals, pockets full of peace! The junta's in the palace, they've taken out a lease. The Commies are in hiding, just across the street; To the embassy of Mexico they beat a quick retreat. And pistol-packing Peurifoy looks mighty optimistic For the land of Guatemala is no longer Communistic.

Posted by 3dc 2022-05-17 10:29|| 2022-05-17 10:29|| Front Page Top

#28 Winky, you really are a flaming moron if you think we wouldn't have stagflation regardless of the Ukraine or not. I'd much rather spend money blowing up Russians and their minions than see it going to some craptastic program like midnight basketball. Compared to all the money we waste in this country in government boondoggles, getting our weapons combat tested without blood is a bargain. If the Azov crew is killing russians, good for them. They're far less scummy than all the African and Middle Eastern vermin we've showered with money for decades.

I'm bored of these trolls, Putin needs to flush these turds and hire new ones.

Posted by Silentbrick 2022-05-17 10:33|| 2022-05-17 10:33|| Front Page Top

#29 Troll, I used the Javlins as an example. Not the whole think, dont let your anger and desire to show me, control your conversation. With that said I do agree out administration is a mess.

Posted by 49 Pan 2022-05-17 10:43|| 2022-05-17 10:43|| Front Page Top

#30 Putin
trolls

🤡

Here's your best argument - a fake choice and a reference to ... the Clinton Administration!
I'd much rather spend money blowing up Russians and their minions than see it going to some craptastic program like midnight basketball.

Think, people, THINK. It's not 1995. Clinton is not president and our deficit is not measured in the millions. It's 32 fucking TRILLION you goofs. We don't have $60 billion to piss away on another wag the dog adventure by another corrupt failed Democrat administration.

The threat is 1) this insane administration and 2) China. Putin doesn't threaten us in the slightest.

Put aside your Cold War-era blinders and face the reality of where we are in 2022.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 10:44|| 2022-05-17 10:44|| Front Page Top

#31 Jesus, even Rip Van Winkle woke up after 20 years. While you old Cold War obsessives think it's still the early 1990s.

Biden too: he actually thinks it's 1993, and time to for more fun and adventure in SOMALIA!

YJCMTSU

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 10:49|| 2022-05-17 10:49|| Front Page Top

#32 Winky, I think it's time for your nap.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 10:55|| 2022-05-17 10:55|| Front Page Top

#33 Glad to see your Valium's kicking in, Screamer.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 10:57|| 2022-05-17 10:57|| Front Page Top

#34 Behold wit and wisdom of Rob Crawford:
Stop crying wolf. Or just STFU.
Time for your nap
Nazis aren't "NAZIS"

Posted by Kojo Sforza8353 2022-05-17 11:00|| 2022-05-17 11:00|| Front Page Top

#35 Trolls gotta troll, or Pootie will decide they'd be better used down in the Donbas, clutching a ~~quality AK~~ recycled Mosin-Nagant while waiting for an M777 to blow them to shit.

Posted by Nero 2022-05-17 11:04|| 2022-05-17 11:04|| Front Page Top

#36 You're so obsessed with Putin, you don't even see how Biden and his freaks are destroying your country. You care more about fourth world Ukraine than you care about your own homeland. No wonder the Chinese own you.

Posted by Kojo Sforza8353 2022-05-17 11:07|| 2022-05-17 11:07|| Front Page Top

#37 what a good idea to bring home from E. Ukraine

#Russia: Why it is unwise to take items from the battlefield: Today, a Swedish Pansarskott 86 (AT-4) launcher exploded in the truck of a civilian car- not in UA, but in Mytishchi, Russia.

It was taken from the battlefields of E. Ukraine- perhaps as a souvenir or for sale. pic.twitter.com/OohtR3ExeJ
— 🇺🇦 Ukraine Weapons Tracker (@UAWeapons) May 17, 2022

Posted by 3dc 2022-05-17 11:11|| 2022-05-17 11:11|| Front Page Top

#38 Winky, I think it's time for your nap.

Not to pick on Winky in particular, but I can see this becoming a Rantburg catch phrase. Hmmm, we will need a graphic...

Posted by SteveS 2022-05-17 11:12|| 2022-05-17 11:12|| Front Page Top

#39 Shift change?

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 11:12|| 2022-05-17 11:12|| Front Page Top

#40 so obsessed with Putin, you don't even see how Biden and his freaks are destroying your country.

What's new? Every few years since the end of the Cold War, a US administration has to create another faux-threat to justify another pointless intervention that wastes American money, completely trashes the foreign country and ends in failure. Saddam! Assad! Khadaffi! Putin!

Same old shit designed to dupe the rubes. Pay no attention to our failures!

Even Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are laughing out loud at this administration's pathetic attempts to redirect. Bezos yesterday: "Look! A squirrel!"

🤣

Posted by Vortigern Theans2467 2022-05-17 11:16|| 2022-05-17 11:16|| Front Page Top

#41

Nomination for #38:

Posted by Besoeker 2022-05-17 11:21|| 2022-05-17 11:21|| Front Page Top

#42 Nice to see an end to the embarrassing non sequiturs and 1990s woolly thinking. Playground insults are so much clearer and more concise.

Now, back to business... let's have a show of hands:

All in favor of impoverishing America by throwing a ridiculous $60 billion boondoggle into the Biden-MIC-Ukrainian thieves' sinkhole, raise your hand.

Same for those in favor of building up China by trying and failing to crush Russia.

And all those who prefer stupid insults to reasoned argument: raise your hands.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 11:24|| 2022-05-17 11:24|| Front Page Top

#43 You think they drink from a glass?

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 11:24|| 2022-05-17 11:24|| Front Page Top

#44 So you're being beaten by a fourth world Ukraine funded with US pocket change? Interesting.

Posted by Nero 2022-05-17 11:25|| 2022-05-17 11:25|| Front Page Top

#45 No, WE'RE being robbed by a shitty fourth world regime's kleptocrats in cahoots with our own politicians who are destroying everything here at home.

Why can't you admit that this is a con job? We don't have any vital interest in that shithole. Russia does. It's their patch, and none of our business.

Go ahead, put aside your stupid insults and tell us: What is our vital interest there? Why does it justify destroying our own economy?

Why the hell are we prolonging a stupid, pointless, totally irrelevant war whose only winner is China?

Are you just shilling for the Chinese? Is that what this is all about?

I'm genuinely curious. What has invaded your brains?

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 11:34|| 2022-05-17 11:34|| Front Page Top

#46 What's new? Every few years since the end of the Cold War, a US administration has to create another faux-threat to justify another pointless intervention that wastes American money, completely trashes the foreign country and ends in failure. Saddam! Assad! Khadaffi! Putin!

Just for my vriend Badanov.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 11:34|| 2022-05-17 11:34|| Front Page Top

#47 Go ahead, put aside your stupid insults and tell us: What is our vital interest there? Why does it justify destroying our own economy?

Why the hell are we prolonging a stupid, pointless, totally irrelevant war whose only winner is China?

Are you just shilling for the Chinese? Is that what this is all about?

I'm genuinely curious. What has invaded your brains?

You sound like a drunk teacher who hasn't settled on the subject of his lecture.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 11:36|| 2022-05-17 11:36|| Front Page Top

#48 More stupid and incoherent insults.

Obviously, you can't articulate any vital US interest in Ukraine because there is none. It's a brutal and savage civil war that no more concerns us than the civil wars in Libya, Yemen, Somalia or any number of 4th world shitholes.

Except this one if it lasts much longer will increase China's power and influence while greatly diminishing ours.

Try again. Describe our vital interests at stake in this war.

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 11:41|| 2022-05-17 11:41|| Front Page Top

#49 More stupid and incoherent insults.

Obviously, you can't articulate any vital US interest in Ukraine because there is none. It's a brutal and savage civil war that no more concerns us than the civil wars in Libya, Yemen, Somalia or any number of 4th world shitholes.

Except this one if it lasts much longer will increase China's power and influence while greatly diminishing ours.

Try again. Describe our vital interests at stake in this war.

It wasn't an insult, but my impression of how you sound.

I suggest you dial your shrillness back some, start listening more, and learn to STFU when time is ripe.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 11:45|| 2022-05-17 11:45|| Front Page Top

#50 🤡
You obviously can't define any vital US interest that's worth building up China and destroying our and the world's economy.

Go back to your Google-translating, "Boris."

Posted by Winky Angavimp8054 2022-05-17 11:48|| 2022-05-17 11:48|| Front Page Top

#51 If you think you can step over our well established line of online conduct here, ad then step back, you are mistaken.

You didn't take the hint, so I will make it clearer so we both understand.

Dial it back.

Posted by badanov 2022-05-17 11:51|| 2022-05-17 11:51|| Front Page Top

#52 Circling back, because I’ve been away from the internet dealing with Real Life. Or real life, because it wasn’t anything major, just something that required my presence and attention.

WTF does this attempt at sarcasm even mean?

For our anonymous visitor, I refer you to those funny things called emoticons, used eons-long in internet conversations to replace visible facial expressions, and also the typed equivalents like LOL. If I’d meant to be sarcastic, I would have added /sarc at the end, because it isn’t
fair to expect the subtler emotions to be correctly intuited, especially for those dealing in a language not their native tongue.

You obviously can't define any vital US interest that's worth building up China and destroying our and the world's economy.

Each discussion to its own thread. We’ve covered China and the deliberate impoverishment of the U.S. by the Democrats with the aid of too many Republicans — the Biden administration being only the latest example — in innumerable discussions over the past two decades. Just because you weren’t around to participate at the time does not mean we must respect your rude demand that we repeat all that in each thread about the current Russia-Ukraine unpleasantness.

It occurs to me that something of that unpleasantness results from the fact that President Putin must be at least as determined to keep Russia’s financial connections to the Bidens out of the public eye as the Bidens are to protect their Ukrainian connections. The record clearly shows that the Bidens profited massively from Russia as well as China and the Ukraine. So, dear anonymous troll, be aware that each time you reference the Bidens’ corrupt dealings in that part of the world, you threaten Russia’s interests as much as Ukraine’s.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 12:30|| 2022-05-17 12:30|| Front Page Top

#53 Define any vital US interest in Korea?

OK

Posted by Procopius2k 2022-05-17 12:31|| 2022-05-17 12:31|| Front Page Top

#54 Late to the thread, I am struck by the depth, quantity and increasingly strident tone of guest Winky.Clearly A-team level and by volume, skilled at repetitive-theme argumentation as a sales technique. Given that, he fails to get that you go for the close and STOP talking. That he can't suggests ongoing oversight of his efforts, which suggests this as an assignment, not mere passion.

Posted by NoMoreBS 2022-05-17 12:44|| 2022-05-17 12:44|| Front Page Top

#55 I would also add, most sales training seminars pretty early on teach that beginning your sales pitch "You c*cks*ckers..." is not an effective approach.

Just sayin...

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-05-17 12:47|| 2022-05-17 12:47|| Front Page Top

#56 Depends on the audience, Murcek. At a Baptist convention, no. But at the Adult Video Awards?

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 13:28|| 2022-05-17 13:28|| Front Page Top

#57 ^ Also, the Folsom Street Fair in SF would seem to be the appropriate audience.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2022-05-17 13:35|| 2022-05-17 13:35|| Front Page Top

#58 I think we need to rename trolls on assignment to Winkeys...

Posted by 49 Pan 2022-05-17 13:56|| 2022-05-17 13:56|| Front Page Top

#59 You sound like a drunk teacher who hasn't settled on the subject of his lecture.

Grom?
I love the engagement of new readers.

Posted by Skidmark 2022-05-17 13:57|| 2022-05-17 13:57|| Front Page Top

#60 *Snicker* Really good points about salesmanship, NoMoreBS and M.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 13:59|| 2022-05-17 13:59|| Front Page Top

#61 I'm getting to the point that I ignore almost anyone whose nym ends in 4 digits. There are a few exceptions - those who have been around for a while.
Then there's Acapulco Joe - so maybe the trolls are getting smarter.

Posted by Rambler in Virginia 2022-05-17 14:22|| 2022-05-17 14:22|| Front Page Top

#62 Except no one answered the poster's reasonable question. What vital American interest is at stake in Ukraine?

Posted by Crump Clolurong2658 2022-05-17 15:19|| 2022-05-17 15:19|| Front Page Top

#63 Bogging down Putin's New Russian Empire is a vital interest.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 15:28|| 2022-05-17 15:28|| Front Page Top

#64 Except no one answered the poster's reasonable question. What vital American interest is at stake in Ukraine?

One I can see.

Bleed Russia dry and grind their capability down so they can't keep invading and going after NATO members. Russia would be humiliated and have a choice between a long and very public retreat or nukes.

Best not to give them that choice.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-05-17 15:28|| 2022-05-17 15:28|| Front Page Top

#65 New Russian Empire

What are you talking about? There is no "Empire." There's just Russia, the Donbas and Ossetia. None of the latter two regions has anything to do with NATO or the West.

keep invading and going after NATO members.

Ukraine was never a "NATO member." Biden and Zelensky both said it will never be a NATO member. Russia did not invade any NATO member state; it invaded Ukraine, a war torn country bitterly divided between a Russian-leaning eastern part and an EU-leaning western part.

These are really lame responses.

Posted by Crump Clolurong2658 2022-05-17 15:42|| 2022-05-17 15:42|| Front Page Top

#66 Crump, Putin has made it clear her wanted other territories beyond Ukraine.

Posted by Vespasian Ebboting9735 2022-05-17 15:54|| 2022-05-17 15:54|| Front Page Top

#67 ref # 65
Actually no, they are valid strategic options. If you reckon that the next decade, and perhaps one thereafter, will remain the chessboard for three superpowers and several emergent regional hegemons, then grinding down and exposing the limited conventional abilities of one (Russia) serves quite well. It limits Russian economic and political alliances for years, places increasing strain on the second superpower (China) to support the decimated Russian economy and morale of the depleted partner in triangulation against the West, and chills the hegemons (India/Brazil/?) from making the wrong choice about the supposed "cleaving" of the East-West factions. Further, it allows the Third Superpower(s) (NATO/USA/Japan/Korea) to focus almost exclusively on the Pacific threat, re-industrialization, energy dominance, and economic distancing from the Chinese soft-warfare and elite-capture strategy that has so deeply damaged the West. Said distancing will weaken the over-extended Chinese economy as the West increasingly spends it money at home or elsewhere, impoverishing the growth-or-die Chinese ponsi-style business model.

Posted by NoMoreBS 2022-05-17 16:03|| 2022-05-17 16:03|| Front Page Top

#68 ^ Lots to like in that take, there...

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-05-17 16:12|| 2022-05-17 16:12|| Front Page Top

#69 Speaking in very approximate terms, the Chinese economic issue is "Who can we sell our stuff to?" And in those oversimplified terms, this what the world looks like to China:

China’s Top Trading Partners (Chinese Exports, 2021):

1- United States: US$521 billion (17.2% of China’s total exports)
2- Hong Kong: $313.1 billion (10.3%)
3-Japan: $151.3 billion (5%)
4-South Korea: $135.1 billion (4.5%)
5- Vietnam: $125.8 billion (4.2%)
6- Germany: $103 billion (3.4%)
7- Netherlands: $91.6 billion (3%)
8 -India: $87.9 billion (2.9%)
9- United Kingdom: $78.8 billion (2.6%)
10- Taiwan: $70.8 billion (2.3%)
11- Malaysia: $69.1 billion (2.3%)
12- Thailand: $62.1 billion (2.1%)
13-Mexico: $61.1 billion (2%)
14-Australia: $59.6 billion (2%)
15- Russia: $59.5 billion (2%)

I'm sure those numbers can be massaged 50 different ways, but accepting them at face value: Russia is on the verge of becoming a rounding error.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 16:31|| 2022-05-17 16:31|| Front Page Top

#70 Thermobaric missiles against guys with paintball guns. Tsk, tsk.

Posted by DooDahMan 2022-05-17 16:39|| 2022-05-17 16:39|| Front Page Top

#71 Russia looks better in 2021 projected GDP terms, but even then it doesn't crack the top ten. To put it harshly, 50 million South Koreans outproduce 140 million Russians.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 16:39|| 2022-05-17 16:39|| Front Page Top

#72 50 million South Koreans outproduce 140 million Russians

Well to be fair, the Koreans aren't drunk on Vodka most of the time.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-05-17 16:42|| 2022-05-17 16:42|| Front Page Top

#73 So, how was Russia in the G8 in the first place? The same reason France is on the UN Security Council?

Posted by DooDahMan 2022-05-17 16:45|| 2022-05-17 16:45|| Front Page Top

#74 ^ I may be misinterpreting the numbers or my sources may be in error, so if you have numbers that show Russis to be an economic powerhouse -- from China's perspective-- I'll certainly look at them.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 16:50|| 2022-05-17 16:50|| Front Page Top

#75 Except no one answered the poster's reasonable question. What vital American interest is at stake in Ukraine?

Testing all sorts of weapons against Russian/Soviet ones as China's weapons are based on them and also NKor's. It's also a good time to see strategy that works against Russian/Soviet styles over time and how Russian styles adapt.

I am well aware that Taiwan is doing so in full detail likely even embedding with Ukrainian troops.

I've seen evidence that Taiwan is placing lots of stingers and older M-60 tanks in strange places to surprise potential invaders. After all in INTERESTING TIMES life can be interesting.

Also, I know US weapons developers are watching everything with immense curiosity. I expect all sorts of new toys to appear.

Although I can't keep from mumbling "Bright Pebbles" and "Rods from God".

Posted by 3dc 2022-05-17 17:02|| 2022-05-17 17:02|| Front Page Top

#76 There is no "Empire." There's just Russia, the Donbas and Ossetia.

Off the top of my head:

Georgia in 2008: Russia occupied the Abkhazia and South Ossetia regions.

Moldova in the 1990s: Russia occupied Transnistria.

Crimea in 2014: Russia annexed it as a prelude to starting the first round of Donbas nonsense.

And then there are the recent hysterical threats to attack former Warsaw pact countries next if they continue to support the Ukraine.

For the romantics in President Putin’s circle, the break up of the Soviet Union, the successor state to the Russian empire, is unnatural and fated to be reversed. For the pragmatists, the break up leaves the Russian rump dangerously exposed and must be reversed.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 17:08|| 2022-05-17 17:08|| Front Page Top

#77 Almost everything asserted in #67 is false, to the point of being delusional.

grinding down and exposing the limited conventional abilities of one (Russia) serves quite well. It limits Russian economic and political alliances for years

This is the exact opposite of what is happening. Russia is bulking up its alliances with India and China. This is standard balancing behavior. When a super power becomes more aggressive and seeks to dominate, all the other powers seek to balance it. When the US stupidly invaded Iraq, Germany and Russia joined forces to oppose the US diplomatically and politically. The Germans and Russians and the French sought to offset what they saw as an out of control hyperpower.

The USA should be rallying all of China's powerful neighbors -- especially India and Russia -- against China. This is what Trump was trying to do. Instead, China India and Russia are drawing closer together to offset an aggressive and put of control, reckless, foolish Biden administration.

Thanks for this, though: you've shown clearly how myopic and upside down the current elite American understanding of global realities is.

Posted by Crump Clolurong2658 2022-05-17 17:10|| 2022-05-17 17:10|| Front Page Top

#78 Hot Damn, I made it to elite status! Is there an Oak Leaf Cluster hereafter for the subsequent awards?

Posted by NoMoreBS 2022-05-17 17:21|| 2022-05-17 17:21|| Front Page Top

#79 ^ In due course you will receive the Order of Lenin. Don't hold your breath, though.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 17:25|| 2022-05-17 17:25|| Front Page Top

#80 Russia is bulking up its alliances with India and China.

I'm not a geopolitical expert, but what exactly does that mean? The Russia Embassy is serving extra good cocktails at receptions?

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 17:30|| 2022-05-17 17:30|| Front Page Top

#81 A much more intelligent take is here: a debate on May 12 at Toronto's Munk Center on How to Bring to an End the Russo-Ukraine Disaster
Stephen Walt of Harvard and John Mearsheimer of U. Chicago
vs.
Michael McFaul of Stanford and Radek Sikorsky, former Polish gov't official

Posted by Crump Clolurong2658 2022-05-17 17:33|| 2022-05-17 17:33|| Front Page Top

#82 So, if I watch that debate I'll find out just how Russia is bulking up its alliances with India and China? Examples and everything?

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 17:42|| 2022-05-17 17:42|| Front Page Top

#83 I like the part where India and China are on the same team. /sarc

Posted by Procopius2k 2022-05-17 17:48|| 2022-05-17 17:48|| Front Page Top

#84 from the South China Morning Post:
China-Russia relations in 2022: an alliance by any other name?

"2021 saw the two countries draw closer together than ever in recent years, with bilateral trade surpassing pre-pandemic levels and cooperation on the energy front
Most outstanding, however, was military collaboration, which could deepen next year"

from the New York Post:
China and Russia forming a new axis to challenge the West
By Harry J. Kazianis
March 8, 2022

from the Georgetown Journal of Strategic Affairs
The Logic behind China and Russia’s Strategic Alliance-like Partnership
Author: Min Ye
Published: April 14, 2022

"Beijing and Moscow’s new-era strategic partnership of coordination reflects their shared insecurity and vulnerability in the U.S.-led global order. Their partnership is a declaration of joint counterbalancing on the global stage and an explicit commitment to support each other’s security concerns."

from the Jerusalem Post:
Russia-China ties: analysis of the decade's big story
By SETH J. FRANTZMAN
Published: JANUARY 1, 2022

Posted by Goober Flavitle7148 2022-05-17 17:54|| 2022-05-17 17:54|| Front Page Top

#85 India's already on Russia's side. From The American Conservative:

America Should Be Realistic About India
"America and most Western countries cannot fill the void that would be left by Russia if India were to toe the line of the Western alliance and sever its relationship with Russia. Russia is India’s largest arms supplier, its partner for the development of its supersonic missile “Brahmos,” supplier of crude at discounted rates, and an old friend. America is none of those things. The U.S. will not supply India with the much-needed arms and ammunition, even as it supplies Pakistan -- at least, not until Henry Kissinger’s doctrines are discarded by the wayside. It is not going to jointly develop supersonic missiles with India, and in fact sanctioned India for nuclear tests.

"The difference between India and America’s foreign policy approaches lies in their visions of the world. India sees a multipolar global order. America under Biden is still living the unipolar dream. As Elbridge Colby puts it 'a moralistic foreign policy turns into hypocrisy when it inevitably meets reality'."

Posted by Goober Flavitle7148 2022-05-17 18:12|| 2022-05-17 18:12|| Front Page Top

#86 #84, #85 -- Thanks for the tangible references. So far I've only looked at the NY Post article, which says in part:

"Over time, the Russian people — who will still feel the bite of sanctions — will surely grow to understand that China will soon become a sort of imperial overlord. Chinese merchants, traders and labor will come to Russia in droves, doing what they have done to countless African nations: trade Chinese cash to prop up an evil regime in exchange for the looting of the country.

"In some respects, the coming Chinese-Russian axis is perhaps the greatest political-science experiment of all time. No nation has fallen so far, so fast, that it will need to be saved in such a manner. And knowing that China and Russia have been many times rivals in the past — they nearly went to war in 1969; so much for communist solidarity — such an arrangement may not last the test of time."

I'm not sure that's the argument you want to make, but your call.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 18:25|| 2022-05-17 18:25|| Front Page Top

#87 And here's a link to the JPost story. The article is bylined January 1, and the actual title is: "Russia-China ties will be the big story of 2022 - analysis". The key graf seems to me to be:

“In 2021, Russia and south and east Asian powers pushed ahead with bilateral cooperation. At the beginning of December, Putin paid a visit to India. It was his second foreign visit for the entire year,” it says.

"The report also discusses close ties with China. “By and large, the situation on the world stage during the outgoing year often gave Putin a chance to cite Chinese wisdom. ‘One proverb, as you may know, says, “God forbid living in a time of change.” However, we are there already, whether we like it or not, and these changes are becoming deeper and more fundamental,’ Putin said while speaking at a meeting of the Valdai Discussion Club think tank in October.”

"The report appears to indicate that Russia sees the recent global crisis as an opportunity. It will use this to work more closely with China, and Beijing also looks to exploit the opportunity."

Which sounds good for Russia-China-India cooperation but isn't helpfully specific. And was written before the recent events in Ukraine.

Posted by Matt 2022-05-17 18:40|| 2022-05-17 18:40|| Front Page Top

#88 You're welcome. Read them all. Don't rely on any one view. Thee are dozens of others. The Russia-China alliance is the biggest story of the decade.

Posted by Goober Flavitle7148 2022-05-17 18:49|| 2022-05-17 18:49|| Front Page Top

#89
#62 Except no one answered the poster's reasonable question. What vital American interest is at stake in Ukraine?
Posted by: Crump Clolurong2658 2022-05-17 15:19

Answer: Can a small non-NATO, non-Western, former USSR country defeat the Russian Army using western military technology? i.e. Star-Link Satellite network vs Russia's walkie talkies. Foot soldier held laser guided rockets verses tanks/heavy armor. Unmanned drones vs manned aircraft. US artillery accurate at 30 miles against Russian artillery with effective range of 20 miles. Can the West's Intelligence gathering listen to every form of Russian army communication and then some (listen in on phone conversations of soldiers families)? This is a rare golden opportunity to beta test many things.

"Don't let a crisis go to waste." Hillary Clinton

Posted by Crons Tholush7614 2022-05-17 19:10|| 2022-05-17 19:10|| Front Page Top

#90 And they accuse us of ignoring things. As they say - actions speak louder than words.

Posted by Procopius2k 2022-05-17 19:12|| 2022-05-17 19:12|| Front Page Top

#91 The Russia-China alliance is the biggest story of the decade.

The last time I checked they were tied at the Marxist waist since Mao consolidated his power in post WW2 China. It's been rocky at times, but I don't recall them being in aligned otherwise no matter the delusions of the West. The Chinese will do what's in China's interest. If that means exploiting the nativity of westerners, so be it.

Posted by Procopius2k 2022-05-17 19:17|| 2022-05-17 19:17|| Front Page Top

#92 While you get to beta-test your toys, the cost of your fun to America is:

- The nightmare (for the USA) alliance of China + Russia, with India refusing to follow America or join America

- a sharp divide between the West and the pro-Russia, pro-China "Rest" of the world -- with the former comprising about two dozen nations with less than half the world's GDP and the latter comprising most of the world's GDP and about 80% of its population and natural resources

- a sharp decline in usage of the dollar as the Rest of the World turns away from the US toward China and Russia

- Devastating inflation and recession aka "stagflation" that will cause America's growth rate to fall even further behind China's and India's growth rates, accelerating America's relative decline

- thanks to stagflation, a sharp decline in living standards for American workers, leading to even greater political division and social unrest

.... that's one hell of a price tag for America to pay for your little Starlink beta test.

Accelerated American decline so a few geeks can play with their toys: Unbelievably foolish.

Posted by Goober Flavitle7148 2022-05-17 19:27|| 2022-05-17 19:27|| Front Page Top

#93 I am amazed by the Russian Troll commitment to our little site? Paid and lockstep in message. It must cost the Soviet Putin Government at least $15/hr with minimum wages kicking in. Memorial Day is a holiday, requiring double time, so I predict it'll be a troll-free day. ~~Cheap bastards~~ Heroes of the Proletariat!

Posted by Frank G 2022-05-17 20:35|| 2022-05-17 20:35|| Front Page Top

#94 "troll"
🤡

Just a patriot who's sick of your mindless shilling for Shit-For-Brains Biden, Pelosi, McConnell and their retarded Freakshow's wag the dog adventures overseas

Posted by Jase Snetle1858 2022-05-17 20:37|| 2022-05-17 20:37|| Front Page Top

#95 "troll" - LOL

Not American or Russian here ... just an amused observer from Asia, enjoying the circus. Carry on!

Posted by Goober Flavitle7148 2022-05-17 20:40|| 2022-05-17 20:40|| Front Page Top

#96 I am amazed by the Russian Troll commitment to our little site

Curious indeed that a little news aggregator for the WOT attracts so much attention. Kinda makes you think there is something more going on under the covers, eh?

Posted by SteveS 2022-05-17 20:43|| 2022-05-17 20:43|| Front Page Top

#97 Just a patriot who's sick of your mindless shilling for Shit-For-Brains Biden, Pelosi, McConnell and their retarded Freakshow's wag the dog adventures overseas

Do we need further proof they don't /read/ ANYTHING posted here?

Boring Trolls need to be flushed.

Posted by Silentbrick 2022-05-17 21:04|| 2022-05-17 21:04|| Front Page Top

#98 I'm impressed. Remember here at Rantburg we try to refrain from feeding the trolls. It seems we have not played well in a while. Where is .com when we need him. For you trolling this site, he was a troll slayer...

Posted by 49 Pan 2022-05-17 21:43|| 2022-05-17 21:43|| Front Page Top

#99 I like the part where India and China are on the same team.

No doubt they've set aside their recent dust-up and no longer have any border disputes.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 23:29|| 2022-05-17 23:29|| Front Page Top

#100 As for India -- there are 14,000 Indian citizens in Russia.

There are 2.7 million Indian citizens in the US, and another 1.8 million US citizens of Indian ancestry.

Which country has a bigger impact on the Indian economy?

Posted by Rob Crawford 2022-05-17 23:33|| 2022-05-17 23:33|| Front Page Top

#101 just an amused observer from Asia China?

A Chinese Doctor can't find a job in a Hospital in the US, so he opens his own clinic and puts a sign outside reading 'GET TREATMENT FOR $20 - IF NOT CURED GET BACK $100.'

An American lawyer thinks this is a great opportunity to earn $100 and goes to the clinic.

Lawyer: "I have lost my sense of taste."

Chinese: "Nurse, bring medicine from box No. 14 and put 3 drops in patient's mouth."

Lawyer: "Ugh. this is kerosene."

Chinese: "Congrats, your sense of taste is restored. Give me my $20."

The annoyed lawyer goes back after a few days to try to recover his money.

Lawyer: "I have lost my memory. I can’t remember anything."

Chinese: "Nurse, bring medicine from box no. 14 and put 3 drops in his mouth."

Lawyer (annoyed): "This is kerosene. You gave this to me last time for restoring my taste."

Chinese: "Congrats. You got your memory back. Give me $20."

The fuming lawyer pays him, then comes back a week later determined to get back $100.

Lawyer: "My eyesight has become very weak I cannot see at all."

Chinese: "Well, I don't have any medicine for that, so take this $100."

Lawyer (staring at the note): "But this is $20, not $100!”

Chinese: "Congrats, your eyesight is restored. Give me $20"

Posted by バグMcGurk4586 2022-05-17 23:37|| 2022-05-17 23:37|| Front Page Top

#102 Just a patriot who's sick of your mindless shilling for Shit-For-Brains Biden, Pelosi, McConnell

Too funny — Silentbrick nailed it.

49 Pan — PD.com did have a way with caustic words.

Procopius2k, if you do a search for Ladakh on this site, you’ll find several years of articles on the subject in Rantburg’s archives.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-05-17 23:38|| 2022-05-17 23:38|| Front Page Top

23:38 trailing wife
23:37 バグMcGurk4586
23:35 Rob Crawford
23:33 Rob Crawford
23:29 Rob Crawford
22:40 Enver Scourge of the Chinese6624
21:47 Percy Flotle3938
21:43 49 Pan
21:23 Lord Garth
21:22 Dino tse Tung4922
21:04 Silentbrick
21:02 Procopius2k
20:55 Procopius2k
20:43 SteveS
20:40 Goober Flavitle7148
20:37 Jase Snetle1858
20:35 Frank G
20:33 Jase Snetle1858
20:28 Frank G
20:28 Frank G
20:22 Blinky Grumble2505
20:22 Frank G
20:20 Secret Master
20:03 Jase Snetle1858