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2008-05-27 Home Front: Politix

McCain ~~down with the vapors~~ 'sick at heart' over mistakes in Iraq war

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Posted by Fred 2008-05-27 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ] Top

#1 Yet another "All The People Who Wanted To Fight The War Are Idiots EXCEPT FOR ME" electoral strategy.

It led Hillary! to her defeat in the race for the Democratic nomination.

But really, it's gonna work _this time_ Rocky!

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-05-27 00:16|| 2008-05-27 00:16|| Front Page Top

#2 "As we all know, the American people have grown sick and tired of the war in Iraq"

Because Bush and others failed to stand up to the press and its slanted narratives, sliming and lying that continues to this day.

Problem is McCain will never complain about the press, since that wouyld mean he had to go against his his main constituency the past few years: the MSM press.

McCain is a joke, dishonest and untrustworthy.

Problem is Obama and Hillary are worse.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-05-27 00:29|| 2008-05-27 00:29|| Front Page Top

#3 What you said, Old Spook (for the most part).

For McCain to simply stipulate the appalling and pathetic weakness and unserious attitude of so many Americans towards the war, and try to use it to boost your campaign, while ignoring the terrifying lack of understanding and horrendous disservice the media has done to civilization and the good guys, is yet another depressing moment. Does he realize that leadership is required for the job he seeks? How about, uh, CHALLENGING some of the b.s. that passes as conventional wisdom? How about some intelligent commentary, instead of cheap-shot blather?

And as I've whined for a long time, things are much worse than most people think. There's no "counterinsurgency strategy" needed to prosecute the Iraq mission - common sense would have always sufficed. And since much of the recent progress has been almost an exogenous development - Sunnis turning on AQ, for their own reasons - I fear that the "lessons" of '04/'05/'06 will be missed. I'd love to hear McCain's top 5 list of "mistakes" that have cost us. Same for the bulk of the punditocracy, or even military officers. Losing the initiative, failing to demonstrate will, failing to crush the will of our adversaries to resist, failure to neutralize external support for our adversaries - these are the obvious keys, yet to mention them would almost certainly leave McCain, his advisers, and a surprising percentage of the serving officer corps slack-jawed and confused.

Ya see, "counterinsurgency strategy" sounds so much more, more ... sophisticated. We've always been destined to prevail in Iraq, we will win ugly, but I see no reason to believe that the real mistakes of the first 3 years are recognized or understood, at all.

Still, as OS notes, important to elect the unappealing McCain rather than allow the unimaginable alternatives (and their armies of clueless deputies) anywhere near a real job.

Posted by Verlaine 2008-05-27 02:55|| 2008-05-27 02:55|| Front Page Top

#4 Verlaine, are you writing a book? If not, you should. We need some adult analysis. I fear the kiddies are about to take over.

Posted by Spot">Spot 2008-05-27 08:25|| 2008-05-27 08:25|| Front Page Top

#5 What? You mean to tell me that in war mistakes can be made?! Surely you jest Senator! Next you'll try to tell me that ice is cold.

Hindsight = 20/20

Posted by Broadhead6 2008-05-27 09:31|| 2008-05-27 09:31|| Front Page Top

#6 BH6 - sad thing is the answers were taring them in the face. Had State and Bremer not hosed things up, we'd likely have come to the counterinsurgency tactics in use now sooner, including rehab of Iraqi Army for security use, Sunni reconciliation, etc.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-05-27 09:52|| 2008-05-27 09:52|| Front Page Top

#7 OS, and don't forget the Mass Warfare aka Central Europe good o'boys that dominated the Army well past the fall of the Berlin Wall who were outright hostile to the movement of attention and resource to insurgency warfare, along with the culture at the Pentagon to keep operating in a peacetime mode rather than focus on fight at hand. That's amply demonstrated by continuing using box checking for promotions rather than battlefield performance.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-05-27 10:10|| 2008-05-27 10:10|| Front Page Top

#8 OS - in no particular order or scale from tactical to strat level - some things I think we could've done better:

1) engaged the tribal leaders much earlier. A lot of our head cheeses still don't get arab culture.
2) followed Patton's example of maintaining the folks that run infrastructure & Iraqi army together no matter the party affiliation. (this would've been completely un-p.c. and unpopular but necessary) We could've selectively "liquidated" those officers/leaders no longer needed for duty.
3) kept the media embedded longer after the invasion phase or blacked out.
4) W.House should've been doing weekly/bi-weekly press conferences and counter attacks of incorrect/slanders from msm - esp from late 2004 to present. Still W's biggest failing as CnC imho.

Posted by Broadhead6 2008-05-27 10:12|| 2008-05-27 10:12|| Front Page Top

#9 Had State and Bremer not hosed things up, we'd likely have come to the counterinsurgency tactics in use now sooner, including rehab of Iraqi Army for security use, Sunni reconciliation, etc.

What OS said.

OS, and don't forget the Mass Warfare aka Central Europe good o'boys that dominated the Army well past the fall of the Berlin Wall who were outright hostile to the movement of attention and resource to insurgency warfare, along with the culture at the Pentagon to keep operating in a peacetime mode rather than focus on fight at hand.

And what Procopius said too.

We talk a lot about Bush derangement syndrome. What goes undiscussed is the degree to which senior Army officers suffer from RDS (Rumsfeld derangement syndrome).

Posted by lotp 2008-05-27 10:26|| 2008-05-27 10:26|| Front Page Top

#10 I liked Rummy, he had cojones and I've no doubt some former brass have legit bitches about how he conducted busniess - life in the big city as it were. Rummy was for the lighter faster force - which is great and as a Marine I'm with that but every situation requires it's own strategy & dictates, hence when it was suggested on here a couple years ago about putting in more troops into Iraq there was a huge flame war for anyone supporting that initiative - thus using the rationale that it would just make more targets - funny logic in contrast to the mass principle of war. Now that the reverse has happened and the surge works many act like it was a forgone conclusion.

Posted by Broadhead6 2008-05-27 10:52|| 2008-05-27 10:52|| Front Page Top

#11 Not a military guy so I have a question.....

I keep hearing about all the mistakes made earlier on about not engaging the warlords earlier than we did.

In my business (and my wife's) there is the concept of a "teachable moment". Or, you have to let them fail before they'll understand.

How do these apply? I have this picture that the Anbar Awakening only could take place after they had experienced exactly what AQ had in mind. That nothing we could have done before that would have made friends and/or partners of them.

What do you think?

Posted by AlanC 2008-05-27 16:27|| 2008-05-27 16:27|| Front Page Top

#12 What do you think?

I think -

The US Army has/had selective memory. The establishment within the organization has a fixation on the 'good times' re:WWII and only wants to fight the 'good fight'. It has, and to a certain extent still, ignores the first hundred years of its history when dealing with nation building, dealing with tribes and insurgents, of civil military government. It wants clean lines defined and be 'apoltiical' to the point of antiseptic, though sterile is more the case and hates if not resists being dragged into an area in which can not control that self defining and exclusion ability. In doing so, it quickly sheds the responsibility for actions to agencies that while politically give a better cover to actions, it none the less gives power to said agencies that lack the skill or the competence outside of a con man to actually accomplish something. In doing so, it creates just as much of the potential for disaster or later having to take actions and casualties that could have been avoided in the long run.

Have they paid attention or just lip service? Sending Petraeus to Headquarters to oversee promotions is a start, but knowing the stubbornness of embedded bureaucracy and its historical resistance to change less a revolution or purge, the jury is still out.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-05-27 18:12|| 2008-05-27 18:12|| Front Page Top

#13 Ok, opinion pool---how many of you think that "Nation Building" wasn't a mistake?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 18:23|| 2008-05-27 18:23|| Front Page Top

#14 Actually, the Army and Mariens both have sources that told them how to operate in this environment - the Marines had the "Little Wars" histories to draw on, and the Army (at least my favorite line unit) had stuff going back all the way to the frontier Indian wars and the Philippine insurgency (2nd Cavalry).

Problem is most officers wre not interested in that. Except Petraeus. And this Colonel who read those same histories when he was a 1LT and CPT with the 2nd ACR - COL McMaster and the 3rd ACR. They did a "beta" test in Tal Afar, and it worked.

Its that old "Dragoon" Spirit of the 2ACR in action: ride to battle, dismount to fight.

And it worked.

As for nation building, we didn't have much choice unless we wanted a "Somalia" in the middle of the middle east, sitting on oil supplies and as a crossroads from Iran and Syria.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-05-27 18:45|| 2008-05-27 18:45|| Front Page Top

#15 Nation building is what West Point was built for.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-05-27 19:43|| 2008-05-27 19:43|| Front Page Top

#16 how many of you think that "Nation Building" wasn't a mistake?

Let's observe our own opinion on so many 'liberal' approaches to problems. If you just want to show rather than fix then you don't need to nation build. It never gets fixed and the problem remains festering or simply gets redefined as no longer a problem with newspeak though the consequences down the line are out of your control or influence. If you are more concerned about actually fixing something rather than just putting on a show or just feeling good about yourself cause you did something no matter how ineffectual, then you nation build. The presence of a viable prosperous and militarily strong republic in that part of the world is a knife at every dictator, every oligarchy, every mullah who blames their failures and wretched poverty on everyone else other than themselves. Short of nuking far too many cities or mobilizing too much of our own population needed to cover every den of inequity in which the enemy inhabit, its a strategy that exploits our unique abilities against their weaknesses.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-05-27 21:28|| 2008-05-27 21:28|| Front Page Top

#17 The presence of a viable prosperous and militarily strong republic in that part of the world

Is
(a) Impossible in the sense that you mean---no Arab country ever will be any of these things. In fact, none of them are nations.
(b) Israel is viable prosperous and militarily strong republic. Has been for 60 years, and remains so despite everything that the rest of the World (including our friend USA) doing to change it. Just how strong, you shall see once, how shall I put it, Israel stops accepting American guidance.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 22:18|| 2008-05-27 22:18|| Front Page Top

#18 Poor Puppy---such fragile self esteem (and so justified).

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 22:57|| 2008-05-27 22:57|| Front Page Top

#19 Be nice to the guy who writes the bills of lading...

Posted by Pappy 2008-05-27 23:00|| 2008-05-27 23:00|| Front Page Top

#20 You & Obama Puppy: he has uncle who liberated Auschwitz, you write bills of lading.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 23:04|| 2008-05-27 23:04|| Front Page Top

#21 (a) Impossible in the sense that you mean---no Arab country ever will be any of these things.

Circa 1950, could you say that of any Asian country?

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-05-27 23:08|| 2008-05-27 23:08|| Front Page Top

#22 Ok, opinion pool---how many of you think that "Nation Building" wasn't a mistake?

I think it's a mistake and we need to cut off all our massive aid to middle-eastern countries. Especially those that think they're so powerful that we're only holding them back.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-05-27 23:09|| 2008-05-27 23:09|| Front Page Top

#23 You & Obama Puppy: he has uncle who liberated Auschwitz, you write bills of lading.

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics. And anyway, that was three duty assignments ago. I train marines and corpsmen now.

Hope you can match your bravado when the time comes. I've the sick feeling the Democrat front-runner isn't going to have the same warm-and-fuzzies as most of the last ten White House occupants had.

Posted by Pappy 2008-05-27 23:16|| 2008-05-27 23:16|| Front Page Top

#24 Circa 1950, could you say that of any Asian country?

Yes, these nations had original civilizations of their own. To understand Arabs, and to lesser extent all Muslims, look up "zero-sum games".

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 23:18|| 2008-05-27 23:18|| Front Page Top

#25 You see, we do agree on some things AS!

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-05-27 23:19|| 2008-05-27 23:19|| Front Page Top

#26 What is it that you resent about American Aid Grom?

Posted by RD">RD 2008-05-27 23:26|| 2008-05-27 23:26|| Front Page Top

#27 ....
(a) Impossible in the sense that you mean---no Arab country ever will be any of these things. In fact, none of them are nations.
(b) Israel is viable prosperous and militarily strong republic. Has been for 60 years, and remains so despite everything that the rest of the World (including our friend USA) doing to change it. Just how strong, you shall see once, how shall I put it, Israel stops accepting American guidance.

I would like to see Israel "DOING Strong"!

As long as "Doing Strong" doesn't include any American Lives or Assets.

Posted by RD">RD 2008-05-27 23:42|| 2008-05-27 23:42|| Front Page Top

23:42 RD
23:29 Pappy
23:26 RD
23:25 g(r)omgoru
23:19 g(r)omgoru
23:18 g(r)omgoru
23:16 Pappy
23:15 RD
23:13 DarthVader
23:11 g(r)omgoru
23:09 Abdominal Snowman
23:08 Procopius2k
23:07 g(r)omgoru
23:04 g(r)omgoru
23:00 Pappy
22:59 Kimmie
22:57 g(r)omgoru
22:51 SteveS
22:45 Frank G
22:43 Eric Jablow
22:42 SteveS
22:42 Eric Jablow
22:40 Phomort Bourbon1944
22:36 SteveS