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2007-11-30 Olde Tyme Religion

Pope's response to the Muslim scholars - text

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Posted by mrp 2007-11-30 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11140 views ] Top

#1 Nuts!

Posted by McZoid 2007-11-30 03:02|| 2007-11-30 03:02|| Front Page Top

#2 Diplomatic way of saying "Yes we will meet with you but expect it to be purely symbolic".

Read the Pope's other speeches and writings on Reason and Faith, and the necessity for the free practice of Relgion - a fundamental sticking point that the Muslims cannot allow with the dictatorial brutality written into the Koran.

Thats why the reference to "loving your neighbor" was about - a bit of a heads up that they will need to answer how they are supposed to be loving their neighbor and instead they cut their heads off.

McZoid, you anticatholic bigot, stop now or I will bust you like the dubmass you are.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-11-30 03:45|| 2007-11-30 03:45|| Front Page Top

#3 OldSpook, I think McZoid was using "Nuts" the same way it was used at the Battle of the Bulge.

Posted by Steve 2007-11-30 07:34|| 2007-11-30 07:34|| Front Page Top

#4 It wont be solved between some Pontifical Conclave in some historical apartment with cherubs on the ceiling sitting across the table from a bunch of Mullahs drinking bottled water and eating fresh fruit.

It will be settled in an upstairs dark hallway in some place like Fallujah with a grenade in the door and then a burst on 9mm. When they dump the collected bodies in the basement and pour 90 pound sacks of Lye on the corpses and bulldoze the place over before they call in the reporters....then both sides the Cardinals and the Mullahs will all smile and come to the microphone to reiterate what "they have said all along" that Peace is just around the corner.

Nothing says it like somebody getting a bullet in the head. That's where Islam is headed. Its only a matter of time. Fallujah is the Future.

History isnt decided by talkers. Its decided in the dark with a knife. Its decided with a shovel and callouses. Its decided by Joe in a ditch.

Posted by Angleton 9 2007-11-30 07:35|| 2007-11-30 07:35|| Front Page Top

#5 It's decided by JOE! in the cave.

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-11-30 07:51|| 2007-11-30 07:51|| Front Page Top

#6 "I got your pissful Islam right here! Oh, is this mike on? Good."

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-11-30 08:43|| 2007-11-30 08:43|| Front Page Top

#7 belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge who at the end of time will deal with each person according to his or her actions. We are all called to commit ourselves totally to him and to obey his sacred will.

Speaking as an agnostic, I've still got to call bullshit on this. No effing way is Christianity's God and Islam's Allah the same item. Only Islam grants entrance to paradise for murdering people in cold blood. This one single fact is a total deal-breaker and any Christian deluded enough to think that there's some possible correspondence is begging to become Islam's next victim.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 10:23|| 2007-11-30 10:23|| Front Page Top

#8 Zenster, the Pope's Catholic.

Posted by mrp 2007-11-30 10:41|| 2007-11-30 10:41|| Front Page Top

#9 Thanks Steve.

Posted by McZoid 2007-11-30 10:45|| 2007-11-30 10:45|| Front Page Top

#10 Speaking as an agnostic, I've still got to call bullshit on this.

Always can count on you to give your expert opinion.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-30 11:18|| 2007-11-30 11:18|| Front Page Top

#11 And precisely what do you take issue with in my post, Pappy? Do you even know what an agnostic is? Do you maintain that an agnostic cannot possibly have any sort of formulated approach to the existence of a Supreme Being?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 11:37|| 2007-11-30 11:37|| Front Page Top

#12 It does strike one as ... odd ... that an affirmed agnostic has the ... hubris? ... to insist that the Pope's statement about the Christian God is "bullshit".

Suggests you think you know more about Christian doctrine than he does.

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 11:49|| 2007-11-30 11:49|| Front Page Top

#13 I call any equating of Christianity's God with Allah "bullshit" and stand by it. If there is a God in this universe, that Being is one of boundless love and life-giving properties. There is no way possible that such a Being could reward those who eagerly slay innocents in cold blood. Do you dispute such an idea?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 11:58|| 2007-11-30 11:58|| Front Page Top

#14 I dispute your manners, at a minimum, and your knowlegeability about Christian doctrine - yes.

It's one thing to say "I don't see how that could be true - but you know, I'm not a believer so perhaps I'm missing something. After all, the Pope is a respected Christian leader which a track record of holding firm on doctrine."

It's another thing to think you have the credentials or the credibility to "call bullshit" on a papal statement about the identity of the Christian God.

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 12:03|| 2007-11-30 12:03|| Front Page Top

#15 ~~which~~ with

And before you go there, Zenster -- yes, I *do* have the credentials to make a judgement on this. At least, the well-known seminary from which I earned my MDiv with honors thought so.

(And yes, I make my living in another field entirely, related to artificial intelligence, including for robotics and natural language understanding, including Defense applications. )

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 12:06|| 2007-11-30 12:06|| Front Page Top

#16 And precisely what do you take issue with in my post, Pappy?

The chronic expert-opinion?

Do you even know what an agnostic is?

What type? Scientific, existentialist, libertarian, or humanist? Pyrex or Corningware synod?

Do you maintain that an agnostic cannot possibly have any sort of formulated approach to the existence of a Supreme Being?

Just that you have no formulated approach to the existence of diplomacy. Read the Vatican response very slowly with your filters disabled.

What part of "Without ignoring or downplaying our differences as Christians and Muslims, we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God" seems to be problematic? Either the muslim scholars have to acknowledge that, disagree, or stay silent. They're the ones on the spot.

Or:

"Such common ground allows us to base dialogue on effective respect for the dignity of every human person, on objective knowledge of the religion of the other, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation. The Pope is confident that, once this is achieved, it will be possible to cooperate in a productive way in the areas of culture and society, and for the promotion of justice and peace in society and throughout the world."

Maybe it's too subtle. Sounds to me like the Vatican response, couched in polite diplomat-language, is 'start behaving like a religion worthy of G-d, and we'll talk'.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-30 12:19|| 2007-11-30 12:19|| Front Page Top

#17 There is no mohamed, only Zuul.

Posted by swksvolFF 2007-11-30 12:22|| 2007-11-30 12:22|| Front Page Top

#18 It's another thing to think you have the credentials or the credibility to "call bullshit" on a papal statement about the identity of the Christian God.

You continue to skirt the central question of whether God and Allah are equivalent. We've already seen plenty of evidence that an individual's deep faith can blind them to the possibility that others of equally deep but different faith may seek their destruction. This has been made abundantly clear by Bush's continued insistence that Islam is the Religion of Peace [spit].

Keenly insightful as Benedict may be, heor, at least his spokesman demonstrates a similar willful blindness to the brutal and intolerant nature of Islam. I had hoped that Benedict's Regensburg address would have been the opening volley of complete and thorough distinction between the Catholic Church and Islam. Instead, there continues to issue forth all sorts of blather about equivalency.

As noted in another Rantburg thread:

Says one high-ranking Vatican official: "The Iranians look to the Holy See with particular attention. It is born from our common religious matrix.

I believe that the Vatican is indulging in a game of moral equivalency and doing so at great danger to its flock. That is what I call "bullshit".

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 12:23|| 2007-11-30 12:23|| Front Page Top

#19 Maybe it's too subtle. Sounds to me like the Vatican response, couched in polite diplomat-language, is 'start behaving like a religion worthy of G-d, and we'll talk'.

None of that escaped me, Pappy. I just happen to take issue with all this dialogue crap. It's like trying to negotiate verbally on a full-scale battlefront. Islam has declared outright war upon the non-Muslim world and repeatedly proven that no negotiations are either possible or even to be respected by them. How many more Catholics and Christians and Jews and Buddhists and innocent people in general will have to die at Islam's hands before Benedict and other religious leaders recognize that a real-life embodiment of their Satan now walks the earth?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 12:31|| 2007-11-30 12:31|| Front Page Top

#20 None of that escaped me, Pappy. I just happen to take issue with all this dialogue crap. It's like trying to negotiate verbally on a full-scale battlefront.

There are many fronts. Not all of them require the use of munitions.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-30 12:40|| 2007-11-30 12:40|| Front Page Top

#21 There are many fronts. Not all of them require the use of munitions.

I realize that as well, Pappy. All of us have seen just how far Europe's "nuanced dialogue" has gotten them with Islam. How does the Pope think it will be any different for him? While I recognize that the Church is largely limited to dialogue they, too, have other "fronts" and other "munitions". At present, Islam has made it abundantly clear that no form of dialogue will be of any success. Why then waste one's breath with the usual diplomatic blather? The clock is running out for the Western world. Benedict has a greater responsibility to his own flock than to Islam's. Yes, his mission is to seek the betterment of all mankind, but diverting much needed attention from his congregation at such a crucial hour in the pursuit of a illusory detente that cannot be obtained is a fool's errand at best.

Let's hear from you Pappy, since lotp is vigorously side-stepping the issue. Do you believe that there is equivalency between the Christian God and Allah? I welcome the views of all other Rantburgers on this subject as well.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 12:58|| 2007-11-30 12:58|| Front Page Top

#22 lotp has a day job and isn't going to waste time giving you more of a forum on a topic where you're ill prepared.

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 12:59|| 2007-11-30 12:59|| Front Page Top

#23 Zen you fucking moron, its the God of Abraham they refer to as the common root, and the same God Jews. Chrstians and Moslems share.

And if you cannot see that then you are truly stupid.

What the Pope is doing is reminding them there is a common root and they need to get BACK to it instead of out on the limb where they dwell now.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-11-30 13:33|| 2007-11-30 13:33|| Front Page Top

#24 Zen, you might want to stop wasting everyones time with your God/Allan thing.

The simple fact is, that no matter how much you don't like Muslims, when they speak of Allah, they're talking about the exact same diety as the Christians do when they speak of God.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-11-30 13:48|| 2007-11-30 13:48|| Front Page Top

#25 Zenster dear, it doesn't matter what we think on this one, although I happen to agree that those who worship what they call God/Allah by deliberately murdering innocents are worshipping a deity said to live somewhere south of God's stated abode. This is about the pope opening a diplomatic/theological front in the War on Terror that only he can fight. Perhaps it will be effective, perhaps not, but that's what this needs to be judged upon, not whether or not God=Allah. The pope is challenging those 138 Muslim religious leaders who wrote the original taqqiya letter to prove that their religion and their god are indeed similar enough to the loving god of Christianity that a discussion can even be held short of at the point of a sword. It will be interesting to watch the 138 try to do so, given their record of fatwahs, writings and recorded preachings. Educational, too, for those like you and I who've not devoted a lifetime to the history and intricacies of Christian and Muslim theology as this pope has done.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2007-11-30 16:01|| 2007-11-30 16:01|| Front Page Top

#26 its the God of Abraham they refer to as the common root, and the same God Jews. Chrstians and Moslems share.

I used to think the same thing: That there was but one single God that all men worshipped inadvertently or not. I'd like to believe that this is just a matter of poor interpretation by the messenger Mohammed. Granting that, in fact, even the Muslims are worshipping the one True Supreme Being, I still find it difficult to reconcile how Islam has suvived the wrath of whatever existing God for this long after committing some of the most egregious crimes against humainty in all of earth's history.

Here, I am not referring to Islam's recent string of terrorist atrocities. I am alluding to the near constant slaughter and oppression of huge portions of our world's population. The misogyny of Islam alone stands as an enduring atrocity all by itself.

This is one reason why I remain an agnostic. Whatever backwardness and deprivation that so many Muslims experience is all wildly insufficient with respect to the retribution that they deserve. According to the Bible, God long ago forbade human sacrifice in His name. Yet, Islam continues to practice the most hideous forms of human sacrifice. One would think that a just and wise God long ago would have smote a fatal blow to such barbarians and their evil practices.

Similarly, it is just as difficult to believe that any reasonable God would be pleased with the idolatry of being forcibly prayed to five times a day, having man's every waking moment circumscribed by stringent and punishible religious edict or countenancing the gleeful murder of innocents in His name.

Something doesn't add up and the discrepancy is enormous.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 16:12|| 2007-11-30 16:12|| Front Page Top

#27 The pope is challenging those 138 Muslim religious leaders who wrote the original taqqiya letter to prove that their religion and their god are indeed similar enough to the loving god of Christianity that a discussion can even be held short of at the point of a sword. It will be interesting to watch the 138 try to do so, given their record of fatwahs, writings and recorded preachings.

Exceptionally well said, trailing wife. It obliges me to demand that you stop deprecating your own depth of wisdom and knowledge. While I can applaud the Pope attempting to get these 138 ~~liars~~ scholars on record and in their own words, it is just as predictable that some violent faction will disavow their writings as heretical and go about committing even more Islamic atrocities whilst these same 138 cretins remain conspicuously silent. Cynical? Hell yes. Islam allows for no other possible assumptions.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 16:18|| 2007-11-30 16:18|| Front Page Top

#28 For what it's worth, I've suspected for some time that Allah and the Christian God are two separate entities. Evidence includes Allah's arbitrary nature, the brutality of his "laws," the specific lack of any concept of a Trinity in his character (and hence the refusal to accept that Christ could be a Son), his afterlife rewards for bloodthirsty murderers, the frankly horrifying treatment of women, the way that the Koran requires a freezing of certain social customs and attitudes at a 7th century level, and the actions of his people (both throughout history and in the present day).

That said, while I would like the Pope to write a two-word letter to these Muslims, with one of the words being "you" and the other one containing four letters, and while I'm disappointed at what sounds on its surface like a wishy-washy response, I more than trust Benedict to stand up for Christianity. This particular battle is one that only he can fight. But regardless of the outcome of this dialogue, I too fear that we may all have to take up arms at some point.

Posted by The Doctor 2007-11-30 16:25|| 2007-11-30 16:25|| Front Page Top

#29 Now I see why mother said never discuss religion, sex or politics.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-11-30 16:32|| 2007-11-30 16:32|| Front Page Top

#30 it is just as predictable that some violent faction will disavow their writings as heretical and go about committing even more Islamic atrocities whilst these same 138 cretins remain conspicuously silent.

Of course. Which allows Pope Benedict to gently point out the contradiction, and publicly ask the 138 to explain -- within their theology. Putting the 138 in the position of either publicly disavowing the atrocitizers (*giggle*), or twist themselves in knots explaining how the gentle Christian god would agree to such behaviour be true believers in such a way that the apologists can straight-facedly accept. It should be very amusing and meat for a great deal of creative snarkery here.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2007-11-30 16:36|| 2007-11-30 16:36|| Front Page Top

#31 The only problem, trailing wife, is that all the while, people will be dying. I can easily recognize why Benedict is setting about this rather academic task. What I do not understand is why it is not being done is a less gentle and more confrontational manner. Furthermore, what use is there in attempting any rapprochement with those who cheerfully employ deceit and dissembling at a moment's notice? All "progress" in such an endeavor would be entirely illusory and serve only to grant Islam more time in its pursuit of Global Cultural Genocide. I doubt that anyone here continues to doubt that Global Cultural Genocide remains Islam's specific goal.

Better to simply call Islam on the carpet directly, challenge its sanctioning of taqiyya and shari'a, then set about rallying this world's Christian population to the task of banning Islam in all their lands. There is no possibility of obtaining any sort of binding agreement with Islam. Ergo, the pursuit of it is a vain and futile exercise at best. There is a vast historical body of evidence to prove any of the points that Benedict is seeking to expose currently. Going over the rutted terrain yet again is akin to repeating the same shop-worn experiment one more time and hoping for different results.

Finally, thank you, The Doctor. I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. You and I clearly share the same grave doubts.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 16:54|| 2007-11-30 16:54|| Front Page Top

#32 I have to agree with Angleton 9, and that there is a diplomatic (if that is the right word) front as well - Saint Paul at Ephesus instigated many changes without a (bow)shot being fired, Socrates, and many others. The people in the trenches can give these debaters leverage in the war of words and ideas. The muslim skullers made their move and required a response. The king of sod gave the gift of the sword - if it were a really powerful icon (eg giving a piece of the true cross in return) there would have been uproar in islamland so it comes off, to me, as a veiled threat. Now it is their move and they have to back it up per the wording of the Vatican's response. They will have to put it in writing and can be dissected as their intent.

I know it is a touchy subject, and as stated in the sister post I am for anyone who brings glory to civilization. I think the Koran is a plagerized piece of work to justify conquest. Ol mo was rejected as a prophet and vowed revenge. The law of the Torah (lifeguards please) had been around and established for centuries but mo went about adding and changing things according to his own agenda and without consultation with Jewish or Christian scholars.

Posted by swksvolFF 2007-11-30 17:48|| 2007-11-30 17:48|| Front Page Top

#33 One would think that a just and wise God long ago would have smote a fatal blow to such barbarians and their evil practices

Theodicy has been a topic of thought and prayer for a very long time, well before Muhammed rallied the Bedouin tribes. A summary of some Catholic responses can be found online here. Jewish theologians struggled with theodicy after the Holocaust but as early as the Book of Job the issue of reconciling God's justice with the existence of evil has been discussed.

Any real discussion of theodicy would take us way off course at the Burg, suck up Fred's bandwidth and drive many people away. I will say, however, that Benedict's letter does not entail any assertion whatsoever that the God of the Church and Allah are "equivalent".

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 19:18|| 2007-11-30 19:18|| Front Page Top

#34 Let's hear from you Pappy...Do you believe that there is equivalency between the Christian God and Allah?

No. Just that there is a G-d. For both Christianity and Islam, there is a merciful G-d. The difference lies in the interpretation of G-d's behavior and actions by religions. For example, both the Koran and the Book of Mormon are claimed to be the direct word of G-d, while the Bible(s) and the Torah are works of human beings through which G-d has spoken or inspired. Big difference.

But the basic premise is that there is a G-d. And when you are trying to engage in a theological battle, it's usually a good idea to define the battleground beforehand.

I still find it difficult to reconcile how Islam has suvived the wrath of whatever existing God for this long after committing some of the most egregious crimes against humainty in all of earth's history.

There is a basic concept in Catholicism called 'free will'. Basically means G-d left it up to his creations what path(s) they wished to choose. And they get to deal with the consequences.

It's not something fundamentalists of either religion are crazy about.

Posted by Pappy 2007-11-30 19:25|| 2007-11-30 19:25|| Front Page Top

#35 what use is there in attempting any rapprochement with those who cheerfully employ deceit and dissembling at a moment's notice?

Benedict has a much wider and broader intent than you seem to realize. His job is, among other things, to preach the Gospel, to teach correct doctrine and to encourage those in the Church not to stray.

He is establishing the groundwork for a theological defense against the claims of Islam that will last for centuries. He is (among others) preaching to the lapsed in Europe. And the steps he is taking will, if it comes to that, provide the theological justification for war.

As I mentioned in the other thread today, he leads and is responsible for 1.1 billion Catholics. His ex cathedra teaching, when offered, will be binding on all Catholics in the future. He is seeing and working for the ages, not just for today or this week or this month.

And given that most of the Christians being killed by Muslims are Catholic he is quite aware of their threat. But remember: Christians were martyrs, to powerful effect, long before Islam arose. Martyrdom for the faith is by no means the worst fate one can suffer as a Christian.

Posted by lotp 2007-11-30 19:27|| 2007-11-30 19:27|| Front Page Top

#36 Thank you for the straight-up answers, Pappy.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 19:39|| 2007-11-30 19:39|| Front Page Top

#37 Benedict has a much wider and broader intent than you seem to realize.

Evidently, you missed my thread about Benedict's visit to Turkey.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-30 19:40|| 2007-11-30 19:40|| Front Page Top

#38 Any chance you'll be happy with anything other than the last post?

For a while i thought you might only be happy if the bomb called for the death of Muslim leaders and included your hitlist, but now I'm pretty sure you would still insist on being a windbag.

Let it go..

Posted by Mike N. 2007-11-30 19:46|| 2007-11-30 19:46|| Front Page Top

#39 I have to agree with The Doctor. The God of Abraham that Jews and Christians worship is not the God of Abraham that Mohamed invented by combining aspects of the Judeo-Christian God with the Idolatary Moon God.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-11-30 20:04|| 2007-11-30 20:04|| Front Page Top

#40 Hagarism. Ibn Warraq describes how Islam was developed as a unifying force to rule Mohammed's military conquests in The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam's Holy Book

Just because the Koran talks about the God of Abraham does not make the motivating spirit of Islam the God who revealed himself to the Jews. The Pope is too much of a gentleman to say this. I agree that Benedict has a larger purpose than to answer the Islamic "clerics." He prabably does not intend to hold a meaningful dialog with them. He has also stated elsewhere that Islam cannot be reformed since they believe that the Koran is the exact and unchangeable word of Allah. Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them."

Posted by SR-71">SR-71 2007-11-30 22:39|| 2007-11-30 22:39|| Front Page Top

#41 Methinks you miss the point. Muslims consider it the same God. That its shit theology and that Mo made it up is for a different discussion entirely.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-11-30 22:55|| 2007-11-30 22:55|| Front Page Top

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