Article

2004-11-22 Europe

German officers accused of torturing conscripts

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Posted by Steve 2004-11-22 9:21:25 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 This is a standard part of escape and evasion training here in the US military. The German military is just laughable. The training is such a watered-down version of what they have to prepare for - in the event of capture - (beheading) that there shouldn't be any issues, whatsoever. The all-conquering Wehrmacht would have laughed their heads off at these dandies.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-22 9:58:49 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-22 9:58:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 At least they weren't dressed like a bunch of militant home-schooling parents...

Posted by Seafarious 2004-11-22 10:03:01 AM|| 2004-11-22 10:03:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 This is a standard part of escape and evasion training here in the US military.

The US army isn't composed of conscripts.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-22 11:52:37 AM|| 2004-11-22 11:52:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 thx for pointing that out, Aris - the two sentences are not related

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-22 12:19:30 PM|| 2004-11-22 12:19:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris, Escape and Evasion training was standard in the late 60's and early 70's when the US military was largely draftees. I don't think of it often, but the POW resistance training was not pleasant. In fact it was standard procedure at the AF survival school to keep students away form the instructors after the training to protect the intstructors. There was an incident at Fairchild AFB where a chance encounter between some students and instructors in a bar resulted in the hospitalization of the instructors.

Posted by RWV 2004-11-22 1:10:08 PM|| 2004-11-22 1:10:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Frank G -- I'd consider it relevant on whether someone's there because he wants to or because he is obliged to. It alters (or ought to alter) the power that the state can wield over you.

Remember that I was recently called a "Hitler" because I thought that people who'd chosen the Pharmacist profession ought to sell medicine according to prescriptions. Oh, the horror of forcing them to sell medicine.

Now, you think it makes no difference on whether people choose or don't choose to be soldiers? And that this affects not at all whether the state should be able to beat (and electrocute) them as part of their training? It seems to me it does. Even if you think the state should *still* be able to electrocute its soldiers, you can't just ignore the conscript nature of the army as non-relevant.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-22 3:27:10 PM|| 2004-11-22 3:27:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 whether they're conscriptsor not matters, just not to the argument at hand. As usual, you've tried to divert the thread. The question was whether escape and evasion training had any simular activities...see your #3 again (and again, and again....). Sorry you got called a Hitler - get over it. I consider you a statist controller with little sense of humor - the worst kind of future bureaucrat, and a model EU apparatchik

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-22 3:32:29 PM|| 2004-11-22 3:32:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 "It alters (or ought to alter) the power that the state can wield over you."

I disagree. The only thing that matters is that they receive the most realistic training possible in order to operate under extreme duress, i.e. in a combat environment. If that means getting beat down (like what happens to us at mock POW training) or electrocution - so be it.

If you were conscripted Aris I'd imagine you would want the most realistic training possible (which is often the harshest) in order to save your life and the lives of your fellow soldiers in combat or whatever the case may be. How you came to be there is irrelevant. Now, if there's a mission impact study on the difference between conscripted performance versus voluntary soldier performance wrt mock pow training then that should be noted. However, the bottom line is that unit cohesion and mission accomplishment is the focal point of a professional combat unit - all soldiers must be treated a like. There cannot be a contractual distinction between conscripts & volunteers wrt to training.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-11-22 3:52:01 PM|| 2004-11-22 3:52:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 If only the Germans would follow the French model of E&E.
1 - Stop where you are
2 - Drop weapon
3 - Raise hands over head
4 - Learn to enjoy captivity

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2004-11-22 4:13:40 PM|| 2004-11-22 4:13:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Frank, *you* get over it. Because I disagree with you on what the point of the thread is, doesn't mean that I'm trying to "divert the thread". *You* think the issue of conscription irrelevant and unimportant, I think it relevant and significant. Deal with the fact that not everyone conforms to your point of view.

Now, your personal attacks on the other hand are *definitely* trying to divert the thread since the question of whether I am a "model EU apparatchik" or not are definitely not relevant to the issue. So leave the thread alone if (as usually), you've come not to discuss the subject but rather make jabs at me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-22 4:15:25 PM|| 2004-11-22 4:15:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 ;-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-22 4:26:39 PM|| 2004-11-22 4:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 It's obvious that things went too far here. The conscript's question is irrelevant though. No conscript is forced to participate in international missions, you can only volunteer for them.
And drafted soldiers have ample opportunities to complain to superiors if things go too far. This is not the Wehrmacht. There are few soldiers who have more rights than German ones.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-22 6:52:16 PM|| 2004-11-22 6:52:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 TGA: This is not the Wehrmacht. There are few soldiers who have more rights than German ones.

That much is apparent.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-22 7:12:46 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-22 7:12:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 :)
ROFLMAO.

Posted by Shipman 2004-11-22 7:21:17 PM|| 2004-11-22 7:21:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Well I have no nostalgia for the Wehrmucht, thank you very much.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-22 7:35:40 PM|| 2004-11-22 7:35:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 CS - you left out a step.

5. Volunteer to collaborate at the first opportunity.

Posted by Darth VAda 2004-11-22 10:31:11 PM|| 2004-11-22 10:31:11 PM|| Front Page Top

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