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2004-10-04 Israel-Palestine

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Posted by Steve White 2004-10-04 12:16:49 AM|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I see that as Satan's plan to prevent the return of Jesus Christ the Lord,'' said Robertson, a Christian broadcaster.

Is anyone else's eschatology meter beginning to wiggle?

He said he "sends notice" to Osama bin Laden, Arafat and Palestinian militant groups that "you will not frustrate God's plan" to have Jews rule the Holy Land until the Second Coming of Jesus. "God says, 'I'm going to judge those who carve up the West Bank and Gaza Strip,' " Robertson said. 'It's my land and keep your hands off it.' "

Eschatology meter pegged, bullshit meter red lined too.

Evangelical Christians are strong supporters of Israel, believing that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land is foretold in the Scriptures and heralds the return of the messiah. While the pilgrims are welcomed in Israel, the belief of some in a final, apocalyptic battle between good and evil in which Jesus returns and Jews either accept him or perish - causes discomfort among Jews.

Few better examples exist of mixed motivations in today's religious circles. Israel needs to carefully examine the agendas of many Christian organizations that are proclaiming their support for Jewish causes. Biblical visions of the "end times," as predicted in Revelations, have driven many Christians to take an otherwise unhealthy interest in Jewish affairs.

Age old blood libels about the Jews having crucified Christ are being pushed aside in a frenzy of expectations over the second coming of Jesus. Most sane people should have profound concerns over Christian fundamentalism's craving for this world's destruction via Armageddon.

Some years back, even the Saudis expressed concern that the White House was being steered by this eschatological notion in their formulation of Middle East policy.

Robertson's motives go well beyond dubious and merit the utmost scrutiny by those in Israel. Little, if any, of his concern is for the welfare of Israel proper. His ultimate intentions serve only one end, and the condemnation or compelled conversion of every Jew is all that he envisions for them.

Robertson is a sterling example of American religiosity run amok. That he has received a half million of our tax dollars to spew this sort of idiotic claptrap is more than a little disturbing.

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 2:02:48 AM|| 2004-10-04 2:02:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Zenster: Robertson's motives go well beyond dubious and merit the utmost scrutiny by those in Israel. Little, if any, of his concern is for the welfare of Israel proper. His ultimate intentions serve only one end, and the condemnation or compelled conversion of every Jew is all that he envisions for them.

Robertson is a sterling example of American religiosity run amok. That he has received a half million of our tax dollars to spew this sort of idiotic claptrap is more than a little disturbing.

Actually, this is a sign of Zenster's hatred for Christians run amuck. Every religion has its own apocalyptic vision. Christianity just happens to have the Revelations. If you have a problem with Christianity, perhaps you should think of moving to a country that is largely free of it, namely Saudi Arabia.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 2:25:12 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 2:25:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I don't trust Robertson any farther than I can toss him. This comes from working in "Christian Broadcasting" for a few years. As a smart man said follow the money and as they all usually say "send money." That said Israel can choose it's friends it's up to them. I know Robertson and his ilk aren't who I would choose as friends. My personal feeling is we are going to be waiting quite a long time for Jesus to come back. Yes it does piss off a few of my friends.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-04 3:02:49 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-10-04 3:02:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Actually, this is a sign of Zenster's hatred for Christians run amuck.

Quite wrong, Zhang Fei. I have had Christian business partners and currently have several Christian friends. I have attended church with my Christian friends many times. Their right to worship as they see fit is something I would defend to the death.

I just happen to have a problem with fundamentalism in all of its various forms, be it Islamic or Christian. Hide bound interpretation of religious doctrine has led to more bloodshed than almost any other type of dispute in human history. One need only examine Islamist terrorism for a vivid example of what has been going on for untold hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Twisted freaks like Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Jesse Jackson, Jerry Fallwell, Robert Tilton, Al Sharpton, Oral Roberts, Reverend Ike, Fred Phelps and an almost endless parade of other vicious, sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons have simply exhausted my tolerance for fundamentalist Christianity.

In more recent times, Ayatollah Khomenei, mullah Omar, Sheik Qaradawi, Moqtada al Sadr, Baker Bashir and all of their ilk have zeroed out my toleration of fundamentalist Islam as well.

The sooner that people begin to think for themselves without relying upon these craven maggots for guidance in their daily lives, the sooner this world will be a better place.

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 3:47:35 AM|| 2004-10-04 3:47:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Well, Zenster, the diff between christian fundies and jihadis is that the first are snake oil salesman, while the second are homicidal maniacs.
You sound like you equivocate. Despite that X-tian fundies are "sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons" and perhaps somewhat "vicious", they are no match to jihadis.

Posted by Memesis 2004-10-04 3:58:18 AM|| 2004-10-04 3:58:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Speaking as a fully paid up atheist, people can believe any claptrap they wish - apocalyptic or otherwise, and the Greens have got some doozies, as long as they don't, by their actions, interfer with my rights and enjoyments.

Suggesting the Bush WH is driven/influenced by some kind of 'end of days' apocalyptic vision is silly. Its much closer to 19th century liberal optimism (that we can and will progressively improve the world through 'progress')

BTW, doesn't the bible say something about judging people by their actions.

Posted by phil_b 2004-10-04 4:17:04 AM|| 2004-10-04 4:17:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 This Jew greatly appreciates such Christian support for Israel. They are doing Hashem's work in their own special way. They continued to visit Israel in Holy Land tours when American Jews were too chickenshit. During the era of suicide bombers.

Posted by dennisw 2004-10-04 4:27:38 AM|| 2004-10-04 4:27:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Well, Zenster, the diff between christian fundies and jihadis is that the first are snake oil salesman, while the second are homicidal maniacs.
You sound like you equivocate. Despite that X-tian fundies are "sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons" and perhaps somewhat "vicious", they are no match to jihadis.

No argument, Memisis. Jihadis are in a class of murderous psychotics all by themselves. Need I mention just how recently the Christian church was weaned off of quite similar behavior? I just happen to find the religious bigotry of slimeballs like Robertson disturbingly similar to the theocratic bull hockey being spewed by the Islamists.

I'm rather confident that if Christ returned to this earth, he would be absolutely disgusted at what has been done in his name. A very few prominent Christian leaders seem to follow their own saviour's golden rule. That sort of moral hypocrisy is just as poisonous as jihadism, one is merely faster acting than the other.

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 5:27:57 AM|| 2004-10-04 5:27:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Well I am a Born Agin Christian and I certainly can not stand Fawell and Co.
When my Aunt was on her death bed her son ask her Pastor to go to the hospital to give her comfort(she had given this church tens of thousands of $ over the years).The a-hole refused saying he had to prepare the church for his son's wedding.Then this butthead had the gall to demand the title to my Aunt's home because"That's what she wanted"course my cousin told him to go F#$k a rolling doughnut.Robertson and such are nothing but money grubbing scroungers.

Posted by Raptor 2004-10-04 9:23:52 AM|| 2004-10-04 9:23:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-04 9:28:17 AM|| 2004-10-04 9:28:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.

How about your christian neighbors, friends, family, and co-workers who go about each and every day doing good works? You don't have to be proselytizing at the top of your lungs to be a role model for your religion. I dispute the smears in the comments above for taking bad apples and portraying the whole tree as rotten.
You'll find many people actively work to better their religions: as a Roman Catholic I despise the pedophile priests and the church's cover-ups. Does that make me a moral hypocrite, Zen? Or just someone who tries to work from the inside to improve the church?

Posted by Frank G 2004-10-04 10:01:27 AM|| 2004-10-04 10:01:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 My point, Frank is that those people aren't the leadership of the mainstream denominations. That leadership is firmly in the hands of left wing wackos. That isn't good.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-04 10:04:31 AM|| 2004-10-04 10:04:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized religion. Ya all believe what you will.

Posted by John (Q. Citizen) 2004-10-04 10:10:40 AM|| 2004-10-04 10:10:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Mrs D - agreed. Reform has to come from the grass roots - and it won't be easy

Posted by Frank G 2004-10-04 10:17:10 AM|| 2004-10-04 10:17:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 JQC: I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized religion. Ya all believe what you will.

I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized atheist nutjobs either, including the Democratic Party and moveon.org. Ya all believe what you will.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 10:18:08 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 10:18:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 MD: If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.

Christians can see if their pastors are moneygrubbers and hypocrites, just as Jews can see when their rabbis are swindlers and pedophiles. It's just that Jewish scandals aren't as hyped up, given that that it's more politically correct to bash Christians.

Pat Robertson is not to be compared to the Taliban. When he said the 9/11 was God's punishment for the unfaithful, he was carrying on in a long tradition of flagellating the unfaithful by the biblical prophets. It's not politically correct in today's environment, but there it is. Muslims have a completely different point of view. Have you ever heard them say that America's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was Allah's punishment for the unfaithful? No. What Robertson said was an expression of doubt in the biblical tradition (re Sodom and Gomorrah - i.e. man is inherently flawed and must do better), whereas what the Mullahs say is an expression of certainty, that Muslims must reach out and strike the infidel wherever he is. One is inward-looking, whereas the other wants to reach out and throttle the non-Muslim.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 10:28:17 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 10:28:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Well said Zenster, Mrs. Davis, and Raptor. I don't trust those Televangelists as far as I can throw my thumb. It's all about power and money with them. Oh, and being in the limelight. Standing in front of a TV camera and proclaiming "See what a good, God-fearing person I am. And by the way, send me your money." The worst thing I ever heard come out of a "preacher"s" mouth was about 20 years ago when I heard one say on TV, "Thank God for AIDS. It's God's way of gettin" rid of all the homosexials" What aslime-ball.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-10-04 10:37:28 AM|| 2004-10-04 10:37:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 *yawns* I'm surprised that so many people can be so skeptical of the MSM, yet buy all the bullshit and stereotypes they say about the Christian Right or other groups vital to the Republican majority. Zenster's indulging in the same hyperbolic bullshit Gore and Dowd emit, only in a different area. Call me back when Baptists bearing bomb belts start blowing up mosques or Catholic cathedrals. Until then, get a GRIP.

Jeeze, it's bad enough some individuals here want to vaporize all Muslims because of the acts of the few, and now some are idiot enough to think the problem is "Religion" in general instead of a specific religion endorsing and supporting specific acts in the here-and-now?

The world is in such a big stinking mess that I have every right in the world to verbally petition the Big Boss of All to hurry the f**k up, make the scene, and shut this hellhole down. Nothing in The Book I Believe orders me to go one step beyond that.

Posted by Ptah 2004-10-04 11:10:20 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-10-04 11:10:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 DB: Thank God for AIDS. It's God's way of gettin" rid of all the homosexials.

I have heard preachers say that AIDS is God's punishment for deviant behavior. I have never heard someone say "Thank God for AIDS", any more than I have heard someone say "Thank God for 9/11", for getting the faithless more involved with religion. It seems to me that DB is making up quotes to suit his anti-Christian views.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 11:18:14 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 11:18:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 It's just that Jewish scandals aren't as hyped up, given that that it's more politically correct to bash Christians.

You obviously dont read jewish papers, which have harp on every scandal in the rabbinate and elsewhere. I think its more that there arent any rabbis who are as important to the general public as certain fundamentalist TV preachers, and Catholic Bishops.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-10-04 11:24:27 AM|| 2004-10-04 11:24:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 LH: You obviously dont read jewish papers, which have harp on every scandal in the rabbinate and elsewhere.

They're not hyped up in the mass media, because stomping on rabbis isn't politically correct. Christian papers also cover internal scandals, but they are also subjected to the mass media's klieg lights, because Christians are, of course, the embodiment of all that is wrong with America.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 11:40:59 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 11:40:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Zhang Fei, I did not make this quote up. I was at Fort Benning, Georgia and a local televangelist said those very words.I am most definately not anti-christian, just anti-fool. My Father is an ordained Baptist Minister and there are many very fine people who are very devout in their faith but not fools. This man who professed to be a follower of Jesus was thanking God for a terrible disease that NOBODY deserves to suffer from. Jesus healed the lepers, he didn't say "Thank God for leprosey. It will rid the world of sinners". He was a very compassionate man well worth emulating.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-10-04 1:19:19 PM|| 2004-10-04 1:19:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I dispute the smears in the comments above for taking bad apples and portraying the whole tree as rotten.
You'll find many people actively work to better their religions: as a Roman Catholic I despise the pedophile priests and the church's cover-ups. Does that make me a moral hypocrite, Zen? Or just someone who tries to work from the inside to improve the church?

Frank, where have I said that all of Christianity is corrupt? If I felt it to be corrupt, why on earth would I have Christian friends or go to their churches with them? Just as importantly, why should your disgust at the cover-ups over child-raping priests render you a hypocrite? I would think that your open confrontation of and direct opposition to such deviance would place you firmly on the side of good.

I very carefully directed my scorn at fundamentalists of every stripe, Christian or Islamic. The televangelists in particular get my wrath because of how consistently they have been shown to be complete and utter hypocrites. Reread Raptor's tale. It does not involve any televangelists, yet I cannot count the number of times I have heard of such matters.

I can only be glad that I have run across several clear-minded Christians who embodied their faith and served as worthy ambassadors to their Christ. What I find particulary disturbing is how a majority of Christians do not protest more loudly over the prominence of such feckless, greedy shysters as Robertson et al.

If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.

As Mrs. Davis so capably points out, if Christians cannot come up with more worthy representatives of their faith than a moron like Pat Robertson, they may well end up being swept aside by a more determined, if less valid, religion. Robertson's brand of belief is equally blind as Islamism's, both are poisonous to reason.

Zenster's indulging in the same hyperbolic bullshit Gore and Dowd emit, only in a different area. Call me back when Baptists bearing bomb belts start blowing up mosques or Catholic cathedrals.

Ptah, I guess you've never heard of "The Troubles," then. Irish Christians have been setting off car bombs and murdering little children for quite some time now. Nowhere have I attempted to directly equate the destructive capacity of Islamism with Christian fundamentalism. What I do see equivalency in is the damaging aspect of fundamentalism in all of its various guises.

Jesus healed the lepers, he didn't say "Thank God for leprosey. It will rid the world of sinners". He was a very compassionate man well worth emulating.

Exceptionally well said, Deacon Blues. Without a doubt, Jesus did exist. Whether he is the son of God is another matter entirely. This does not discredit the worth of his teachings. I suggest that all involved watch the Frontline documentary "From Jesus to Christ" (The first Christians). It is one of the only factually based and carefully researched programs dealing with Christ's religious transformation that I have ever seen. It debunks much of the second-hand misinformation related to Christ's origins while showing the ultimate value of much of his teachings. Make no mistake, Zhang Fei, Robertson specifically attempted to blame homosexual Americans for the 9-11 atrocity.

Such defocusing and misdirection of blame for that tragedy is the hallmark of a fraud. There is not enough room to dispute what I consider to be the deeply flawed notion of original sin, so we will have to leave that for another day. But it still remains, as Mahatma Gandhi said, that;

If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.

The Jews in Israel would be well advised to closely examine the motivations of zealots like Robertson before rushing to embrace any alliance with him. Robertson's snake oil is just another watered down formula of the same poison currently flooding the Middle East.

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 2:11:04 PM|| 2004-10-04 2:11:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Zenster: The Jews in Israel would be well advised to closely examine the motivations of zealots like Robertson before rushing to embrace any alliance with him. Robertson's snake oil is just another watered down formula of the same poison currently flooding the Middle East.

No offense, but that is a load of horsedung. For most of this country's existence, it has been populated by Christian fundamentalists. That percentage is decreasing every day because the lure of a guilt-free secular existence. We have never seen anything like the Taliban where the government did unspeakable things to gays and people convicted of adultery or fornication. At the peak of fundamentalist influence we saw none of this stuff. Zenster is saying that Pat Robertson, just another in a long line of fire-and-brimstone preachers, is going to bring back the Holocaust? I think Zenster needs to cool it on the hyperbole.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 2:19:17 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 2:19:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 The Almighty has his own purposes.

Posted by Honest Abe 2004-10-04 2:21:22 PM|| 2004-10-04 2:21:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Here in San Francisco I've heard a great deal of bigotry directed against Evangelical Christians by otherwise good people, friends who are unaware that they themselves are the bigots that they imagine evangelicals to be. None of these folks would dream of insulting a Jew or a Muslim, but they will cheerfully ascribe the most base motivations to, say, a Pentecostal from Idaho. They are, of course, blissfully unaware of the hypocrisy which flowers from their own ignorance.

For some San Franciscans there is an explanation for this hatred. Many are homosexuals and/or habitual marijuana smokers who have moved to this municipality to specifically get away from Middle America, where concepts of "good" and "evil" still hold some sway. They view Christian America is a sort of blood enemy, so I guess their desire to embrace nearly any group (even Fundamentalist Muslims) that seeks to destroy it is kind of predictable.... if really stupid. Very few urban Californians have ever socialized with, say, a devout Southern Baptist, Conservative Catholic, or a Mormon but they feel pretty comfortable in equating these comparatively innocuous groups with the Taliban because... well, they're all religious, right? They all believe in God, good and evil, right and wrong, and these sorts of things so (thinks your modern urban Californian). How different could they really be? Now, where's my cafÃ© latte?

Urban Californians have drifted so far from the rest of the American family that I am not certain they deserve to be thought of as Americans anymore; but that's a topic for another time. I was raised in a Southern Baptist family. I have an uncle, an aunt, and a grandmother who are extremely religious, the remainder somewhat less so. These people are accomplished professionals: dentists, nurses, insurance salesmen, school teachers. They're reasonably affluent, good citizens who happen to believe strongly (sometimes literally) in biblical teachings. Believe me, you wouldn't mind having any of them as neighbors. They also unquestioningly support Israel for a variety of complex political, social, and religious reasons.... you know, like American Jews used to do back before they decided to self-destruct. And you can also take it from me that my Uncle Neil and Aunt Betty are far more eagerly awaiting their son's graduation from the Methodist seminary in Alabama than they are the rapture. As of yet no one has actually expressed a burning desire for the End Times at a family gathering. More hot sauce? Yes, but Armageddon no.

Robertson's a fairly harmless, almost sad figure; the last of the big time American televangelists out there doing his thing. Frankly, it looks to me like Israel can use all of the friends it can get in the world.

Posted by Secret Master 2004-10-04 2:38:25 PM|| 2004-10-04 2:38:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 What? Israel doesn't have enough problems?

Posted by Clugh Chugh6855 2004-10-04 2:45:12 PM|| 2004-10-04 2:45:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Zenster: As Mrs. Davis so capably points out, if Christians cannot come up with more worthy representatives of their faith than a moron like Pat Robertson, they may well end up being swept aside by a more determined, if less valid, religion. Robertson's brand of belief is equally blind as Islamism's, both are poisonous to reason.

Actually, fundamentalism is the only way Christianity will survive. Without rock-solid core basic beliefs, going to church is no more than participation in a social club. There are much better ways to socialize than going to church. People who require something stronger to keep them going will turn away from the church and move towards Islam. This is why, as an atheist, I am a strong supporter of fundamentalist Christianity and the Catholic church. If the basic tenets of Christianity become watered-down, the attraction of Islam will become irresistible. People need religions involving strong medicine. All things considered, I would prefer that they get it from Christianity than from Islam.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 3:00:53 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 3:00:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 They're not hyped up in the mass media, because stomping on rabbis isn't politically correct. Christian papers also cover internal scandals, but they are also subjected to the mass media's klieg lights, because Christians are, of course, the embodiment of all that is wrong with America.

Ever see how the MSM treats Orthodox rabbis in Israel? Not kindly. The failings of Rabbis in the states doesnt get covered cause no one cares about them. They dont have the money, clout, etc. Name me one rabbi with a regular popular TV show, let alone a network. Hell, name me one American rabbi period off the top of your head (dont cheat and google it). Christians are like, the majority here. There are plenty of influential jews, and they get lambasted by the MSM all the time (dare I mention Richard Perle? Paul Wolfowitz?) but they dont include rabbis, cause rabbis dont matter, other than to (some) Jews.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-10-04 3:17:05 PM|| 2004-10-04 3:17:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 That percentage is decreasing every day because the lure of a guilt-free secular existence. We have never seen anything like the Taliban where the government did unspeakable things to gays and people convicted of adultery or fornication. At the peak of fundamentalist influence we saw none of this stuff. Zenster is saying that Pat Robertson, just another in a long line of fire-and-brimstone preachers, is going to bring back the Holocaust? I think Zenster needs to cool it on the hyperbole.

Zhang Fei, as a self-admitted athiest, you talk about "the lure of a guilt-free secular existence." You imply that properly practiced Christianity is explicitly laden with guilt. I think you do a tremendous disservice to Christians everywhere by mischaracterizing the uplifting spiritual core of their faith.

America has had its own witch trials, and that is sufficiently close to Taleban style persecution to merit examination. You also continue to claim that I directly equate Islamism with Christian fundamentalism in its current form. Nowhere do I do this.

I continue to aver that Robertson's brand of snake oil is just as poisonous over the long run as anything being pedaled by the mullahs. Christianity already had its Holocaust well before Germany reinvented the horrid notion. Pogroms were disgustingly common throughout Europe's history. While it is to Christianity's credit that their church has largely dispensed with such monstrousness, please note how only recently did the Catholic Church finally renouce its putrid and ancient blood libel against the Jewish people.

Blind adherence to doctrine will always taint reason. That is one of my major points in all of this. As an atheist you state that, "People need religions involving strong medicine." I find this to be a deeply cynical and derrogative underestimation of the human spirit and entirely unbecoming to someone of your obvious intelligence. Your dismissal of religion's uplifting qualities in favor of its less tonic and astringent properties is an insult to those who carry forward the enlightened teachings of Christ and all other benign spiritual masters.

PS: Liberalhawk, although a terrible example, Meher Kahane. (And no, I did not have to Google.)

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 3:49:19 PM|| 2004-10-04 3:49:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions.

The main social benefits of American religiosity are twofold: a deep resistance to pacifism and a residual belief in the virtue of bearing and raising children. Both of which are of extraordinary importance to our eventual success in the war with jihadists and their postmodern leftish camp followers in the west.

Posted by lex 2004-10-04 4:04:58 PM|| 2004-10-04 4:04:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 zen, a pretty poor example, seeing as hes been dead, for what, 20 years? And had moved to Israel before that (though he was assasinated on US soil). And never got particularly kind treatment from the mainstream media.

Look. I follow this stuff. Im well aware of the Reform Rabbi in new jersey who was charged with arranging for the murder of his wife, and Im aware of a youth director of the Modern Orthodox movement who was fired for sexual harassment of teens. IIRC both DID get into the MSM. But not like the Swaggart (or was it Baker?) scnadal, or the Catholic sex scandals. Why? Well an osbscure congregational rabbi in New Jersey simply isnt as important as a televangelist who reaches out to millions. And the Orthodox Union, sadly, is not of interest to as many people as the Roman Catholic church. You could probably fit all the folks who ever went through an OU youth program into one RC cathedral.

Now if Meir Kahane had harrassed some kiddies THAT would have been big news. However no one was ever able to tar him with anything other than hatred ,racism and cryptofascism.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-10-04 4:05:03 PM|| 2004-10-04 4:05:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Zenster: America has had its own witch trials, and that is sufficiently close to Taleban style persecution to merit examination. You also continue to claim that I directly equate Islamism with Christian fundamentalism in its current form. Nowhere do I do this.

You have to reach back into the 17th century to get an example of that kind of activity among American Christian fundamentalists. There is no comparison with the Taliban. One - that was small-scale and limited to Salem. Two - fundamentalist Christians in America have been around for 300 years, without reverting to that kind of thing (which actually occurred even as religious wars were raging in Europe). Christians in America simply agree to disagree, relegating theological disputes to the realm of the divine, instead of fighting it out here on earth. The disagreements don't go away, but they basically agree to live and let live. For Protestants, the Pope is still the purple whore of Rome, but the day-to-day reality is that if Catholics want to accept him as the final arbiter of church doctrine, that is their worldly prerogative. Catholics see Protestantism as a heresy, but have no issues with Protestants practising their faith. This tolerance while in rabid disagreement is the essential nature of American Christian fundamentalism.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 4:23:47 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 4:23:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Zenster: I continue to aver that Robertson's brand of snake oil is just as poisonous over the long run as anything being pedaled by the mullahs. Christianity already had its Holocaust well before Germany reinvented the horrid notion. Pogroms were disgustingly common throughout Europe's history. While it is to Christianity's credit that their church has largely dispensed with such monstrousness, please note how only recently did the Catholic Church finally renouce its putrid and ancient blood libel against the Jewish people.

Even the blood libel is small potatoes. My view is that the problem doesn't have to do with basic beliefs. People have all kinds of beliefs about other ethnic groups and religions. The problem is when people think that it is acceptable to use those beliefs as the basis for slaughtering people of a certain creed or ethnicity. Racism and religious prejudice have been phenomena in America for hundreds of years. But it took Germans to go out and slaughter Jews and Poles by the millions.

Arabs aren't the only people with prejudices against Jews. My converstions with Europeans have revealed strong prejudices against Jews, as well. But the difference is that the Europeans don't feel that it is acceptable to kill people based upon these views, whereas many Arabs do.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 4:33:14 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-10-04 4:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions.

lex, I am equating fundamentalism with "blind adherence to doctrine," not the buffet table spiritualism that is currently en vougue. Blind faith will always attempt to trump reason by dint of its own self-proclaimed supremacy. This is one of the poisonous aspects I am attempting to emphasize.

This tolerance while in rabid disagreement is the essential nature of American Christian fundamentalism.

Well said, Zhang Fei, and it is what puts America's constitutional freedom of religion head and shoulders above any of it's overseas counterparts. I view the separation of church and state as one of the keystones to America's greatness. Any erosion of that division is a direct threat to our nation's ascendancy. It is precisely this absence of any state sanctioned religion (to whatever extent) that has prevented the bloodshed so common to other theocratic regimes.

Even the blood libel is small potatoes.

I'm obliged to wonder if Liberalhawk would agree with you on that.

But the difference is that the Europeans don't feel that it is acceptable to kill people based upon these views, whereas many Arabs do.

Which is why I advocate the immediate deposing or decapitation of all theocratic governments, especially the Islamic ones. Nowhere do you hear me espouse similar views about Christian fundamentalists or their kin.

Posted by Zenster 2004-10-04 6:21:10 PM|| 2004-10-04 6:21:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 why I advocate the immediate deposing or decapitation of all theocratic governments, especially the Islamic ones. Nowhere do you hear me espouse similar views about Christian fundamentalists or their kin.
Any erosion of that division is a direct threat to our nation's ascendancy.

I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions. lex, I am equating fundamentalism with "blind adherence to doctrine,"

Posted by Singh Ho 2004-10-04 7:51:18 PM|| 2004-10-04 7:51:18 PM|| Front Page Top

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