Javid Hassan, Arab News
Muslims should do some introspection and diagnose the ills afflicting their societies. They should also go on the offensive by pinpointing the shortcomings of their critics. It was also time to forge alliances with the supporters of Islam in the West in order to take the battle into their adversaries' court.
Guess the Left is going to come into some money, huh?
This was the opinion of a cross-section of participants at the international conference on "The Image of Saudi Arabia in the World" which entered its third day yesterday. However, security concerns seemed to have played out in keeping the level of attendance rather low.
Never can tell about these meetings to put to rest misunderstanding of the Religion of Peace. You never know who's going to explode.
Participating in the discussion, Sheikh Saleh Al-Hussein, an Islamic scholar, underlined the need for a concerted effort to project a good image of the Kingdom among the pilgrims coming here either for Haj or Umrah. The views were echoed by Dr. Abdullah Al-Lohaidan who spelled out his strategy for making use of the mass media to correct the misconceptions about the Kingdom and Islam. Mohammed Aslam Khan, an executive editor working for Internews Pakistan, took up the theme at a later stage when he proposed high-caliber training programs to hone the professional skills of Muslim journalists as well as an Islamic think tank to undertake indepth research on each Muslim country. Khan had a dig at the United States and asked when the US could not bring democracy to Haiti since the time of President Woodrow Wilson in 1915, how could it think of fast-forwarding democratic reforms in the Arab world? Dr. Keith Rowe, professor of comparative religions from New Zealand, said the Arabs should not think that it is all "gloom and doom in the West." There were some fairminded Westerners, too, who were ready to support the cause of Islam and debunk the myth surrounding it. He proposed an alliance with the saner elements from the West in the joint task of meeting the challenge head on. Omar A. Bahalaiwa, secretary-general of the Saudi Committee for the Development of International Trade, told Arab News later that it was time to do some stock-taking and discover our own shortcomings. "Islam is a religion of peace. What message are we conveying when there are acts of terrorism?" he asked.
That all the "religion of peace" crap is all bullsquat to cover a long-term plan for world domination? That sounds about right...
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 7:43:14 PM ||
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I've found their actions, denial, enabling and funding of terror offensive for quit a while. I'd suggest they give it a rest before that ol' cause/effect hammer comes down on their ummah
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 20:20 Comments ||
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O'k.
Brute force didn't work.
Terrorism doesn't seem to work.
What do we do now?
The one answer that will not occur to a single one of them is "Give up this islamo-dominance nonsence, and start working on incorporating our societies into Civilization."
Suggestions that the Kingdom should use its economic clout against countries tolerating or encouraging hostile attitude toward this country came up for discussion on the second day of the international conference on "The image of Saudi Arabia in the world."
Subheading: "Why do the infidels hate us?"
Some participants said it was time to reach out to expatriates working in the Kingdom, since they could play an important role in correcting negative perceptions about Saudi Arabia once they returned home.
That would be the expatriates fleeing your country to avoid being killed? Yeah, good plan.
Representatives of Saudi Aramco and BAE Systems spoke on the role of their respective organizations in projecting the Kingdom in its proper perspective, while another line of thinking favored priming the mass media with the Arab point of view. The session was chaired by Dr. Fahd Al-Tayyash, associate professor of mass communications at King Saud University. Setting the tone of the discussions at King Faisal Hall, Professor Grigori Kosach of the Institute of Asian and African Studies at Moscow State University, said Saudi Arabia's image had been dented in the Russian media for its alleged support to the opposition in Chechnya.
Killing school children will do that.
Speaking in fluent Arabic, Grigori said there have been frequent reports in the Russian media citing Saudi charitable organizations for their "support to the opposition parties in Russia's provincial republics, notably Chechnya and other Muslim-majority republics." It was also believed that the Muslim community remained isolated from the mainstream of sociopolitical life in those republics. The general impression was that such an isolationist tendency among the Muslims was the result of extremism that Islam preached.
Translation: "Doesn't play well with others"
"It is also believed that Saudi Arabia is behind acts of terrorism in Chechnya."
Might be those phone calls the killers made from the school.
Speaking on the role of the mass media in projecting a distorted image of Islam, Dr. Abdul Aziz Turkistani, consultant at the Ministry of Islamic Affairs, said such an image was created by the pro-Israeli lobby which has been very active in the US.
"It's the Joooos fault!"
Dr. Turkistani said it was imperative that the Kingdom should come up with a strategy for countering the hostile media campaign. In this context, he proposed an institutional arrangement whereby the Kingdom could get constant feedback on the public opinion through Saudi diplomatic missions abroad.
They might not like the kind of "feedback" I'd propose giving them.
He stressed the importance of cultivating good relations with the mass media, particularly the BBC, whose support could be harnessed as part of an intensive PR campaign.
You mean it hasn't already?
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 9:44:56 AM ||
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So the meeting summary will be entitled The Protocols of the Elders of Arabia?
#2
You want to end "hostile attitudes" towards "Saudi" Arabia?
Why don't you try GROWING THE FUCK UP AND ENTERING THE 20th CENTURY! We'll be glad to drag you into the 21st Century later.
You STINK, Arabia, in myraid ways, and all the PR perfume in the world won't cover the stench.
You want respect? Behave in a way that can be respected.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 14:56 Comments ||
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wow...I was completely convinced when Al-Jubeir said on the TV that the Saudis had nothing to do with terror. Saudi's PR $ have been well spent on ads. Yup
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 15:11 Comments ||
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I think a high concept sit-com would be a good investment. Just off the top of my pointy head:
Bourka Junction.
You and What Mullah?
Sand and the City.
The Apostate.
#5
Speaking in fluent Arabic, Grigori said there have been frequent reports in the Russian media citing Saudi charitable organizations for their âsupport to the opposition parties in Russiaâs provincial republics, notably Chechnya and other Muslim-majority republics.... It is also believed that Saudi Arabia is behind acts of terrorism in Chechnya.â Speaking on the role of the mass media in projecting a distorted image of Islam, Dr. Abdul Aziz Turkistani, consultant at the Ministry of Islamic Affairs, said such an image was created by the pro-Israeli lobby which has been very active in the US.
And Putin's a jew as well. No wonder AIPAC just opened an office next to the Kremlin.
Note that the Interior Ministry's gained the upper hand on this one. Looks like al-Harbi's been doing his job and that Louis's been able to rein the hard boyz and get 'em back on track with the Master Plan since al-Muqrin achieved room temperature ...
Just a year ago, democratic changes in this absolute monarchy seemed to be gathering steam. But what observers saw as a promising opening has been stymied as an influx of oil money and victories against militants linked to Al Qaeda have reduced the urgency surrounding reform. A number of signs point to retrenchment. A law issued recently by the Council of Ministers makes the signing of petitions by government employees, or speaking critically of the government to the press, punishable by firing or jail. A trial of three reformists charged with dissension and other crimes, which started in August and was open to the public, has been closed. And in King Fahd's annual speech last month to the Shura Council, an advisory group, reforms were ignored, analysts say.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 12:46:10 AM ||
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I do not think that reform ever started. They just started talking about it and then.......it went away.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/04/2004 0:55 Comments ||
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Saudi reform is pretty much dead
Now all that remains is for the Saudi royal family to be pretty much dead. Somehow, they manage to make the British royals look like responsible contributing citizens.
#3
Reform would mean that the royal family would eventually have to share power and wealth and that the clergy would eventually have to allow dissent from stupidity.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
10/04/2004 5:24 Comments ||
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1, 2, and 3 are right.
Let's get independent from oil in the mid-East. The question is how do we deal with our own loonies here? The environomental facists, the non nuclear crowd, and the vested interests? We also need to develop all other sources of power asap. The oil is a limited resource. The pressure on supply, the demand, and the price is just going to keep going up. It sets up things up for more wars in the future.
#5
JQC---Right on. It is going to take a major world effort, but if we want to avoid these cycles of war with ME nutcase countries we need to seriously lessen our dependence upon foreign sources, esp ME oil.
The problem is how to do that. New technologies will take time. However, I can see that advances in nuclear technology and especially in radioactive waste handling and recycling could bring more nuclear plants on line. This would lower demand for natural gas and oil, which could free up more domestic oil for transportation while technology advances on that front. We should be making this a major part of government policy. And we should be working with consumer nations of ME oil like Japan to help us all out. They are much more vulnerable than us.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/04/2004 11:27 Comments ||
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The writer made a mistake. SR130 billion = $35 billion, not $3.5 billion. $1.00 = SR3.75
Sad story, but what can you say about the MK? It's a society where everything is upside down. Tradition is good, but we have to be modern; OTOH, we have to be sure to be ONLY modern, not Western. Too much baggage there. How to be modern and not be influenced by the West? We'll have our youth attend orientation sessions before departure to Western schools. We'll show them videos of Madonna, Britney, Jerry Springer, nightclubs, and alcoholics and tell them this is the danger that lurks before them. etc...
No, we'll train them here! We'll import Western training experts who will show our youth the way. What? Recruitment is a little thin right now? Perish the thought! Let's have a conference full of international speakers on how to jazz up our image so that we appear to be moderate. Only in the Magic Kingdom.
Posted by: Chicago Mike ||
10/04/2004 13:38 Comments ||
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They actually do that Mike? I mean the pre exit videos and such like that there?
In this gritty border town known as a haven for drug smugglers, arms dealers and counterfeiters, stacks of money change hands in the open on every corner and thousands of people each day stream across Friendship Bridge into Ciudad del Este. They carry packages on their backs, in wheelbarrows or on carts, and border police stop few. Such chaotic scenes give life to the city's reputation of lawlessness and U.S. officials' description of the tri-border area where Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina meet as a key South American point for Islamic terrorist fund raising to the tune of $100 million a year. Yet few arrests have been made or assets frozen, and local officials told The Associated Press they are ill-prepared to fully track financial movements and they discount terror links.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 1:03:40 AM ||
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If the Tri-border Arabs are funding war against us, then hunt them down Apocolypse Now style. Arclight and rewards for Arabs head on poles. Message for the Arabs: Never get off the boat, man.
Posted by: ed ||
10/04/2004 6:26 Comments ||
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Also keep an eye on Venezuela. This thread has been in the news for the past couple of years. A worthy topic to be discussed between the candidates, but since it involves Latin America and terrorism, I guess it's too sensitive to talk about in public. Potential for too many hurt feelings. I expect that from Kerry, but W has to step up to the plate.
Posted by: Chicago Mike ||
10/04/2004 13:46 Comments ||
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About 100,000 South Koreans staged an anti-communist rally on Monday, burning North Korean flags to press their calls for the downfall of the Pyongyang government and an end of its suspected nuclear weapons programs. The rally at Seoul's City Hall plaza in the heart of the capital drew mostly elderly people, including Korean War veterans and Christians -- conservative groups critical of the conciliatory North Korea policies of President Roh Moo-hyun.
"Kim Jong-il has nuclear weapons and is threatening the international community. The free world must cooperate to get rid of this terror and anti-state regime," said protest leader Park Chan-sung. Kim is the leader of reclusive North Korea. The protest comes amid uncertainty over the fate of talks to end a stand-off over North Korea's nuclear ambitions and efforts by the South's ruling center-left Uri Party to scrap decades-old legislation banning contact with the communist North. Following Christian prayers, protesters burned North Korean flags and carried a mock plastic missile to denounce the North's nuclear program. Marchers carried placards saying "Down with Kim Jong-il!" and "Support North Korean Human Rights."
The crowd, which police said reached 100,000 people, also took aim at Roh's government and his Uri Party, accusing them of being soft on North Korea. "Preserve the National Security Law to the death," protesters chanted in an attack on the Uri Party's attempts to scrap an anti-communist law. Roh's backers say the law is a relic of the country's 1970s and 1980s military dictatorships. The National Security Law uses sweeping provisions to jail those who work for enemies of the state, notably North Korea, and their sympathizers. It technically bans the kind of contacts with the North that have become commonplace in recent years. Human rights critics say former leaders used the law to quell dissent and it is redundant. Uri Party members, many former dissidents, suffered under the law in previous decades.
The debate in parliament over scrapping or revising the law has taken on a bitter ideological tone because North Korea has consistently demanded the repeal of the legislation. Conservative lawmakers argue that the security law is still needed because North Korea has never renounced its goal of overthrowing the South by force -- as Pyongyang tried to do when it invaded in 1950 sparking the three-year Korean War. North and South Korea are still technically at war since their conflict ended in armed truce without a peace treaty.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 9:39:00 AM ||
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Here in the US, we don't jail those who work with our enemies; we nominate them for President.
Two secret messages decoded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and Turkish National Intelligence Services (MIT) indicate that the Al Qaeda terrorist organization plans to undertake a terrorist attack similar to the 9/11 incident using powdered TNT. According to the CIA, Al Qaeda devised a scheme to hijack planes in some countries, including Turkey, using a powder form of TNT and a firing mechanism called TAPT, in which sulfuric acid acts as the triggering agent. The bomb components are undetectable by X-ray scanners. A report from MIT, which first came upon the messages, confirms the CIA findings.
The coded messages detail that the little known Hamsad organization is preparing to carry out a suicide bombing in Turkey. Hamsad reportedly plans to use Iraqis to attack targets that include border gates, airports, and foreign missions of countries currently occupying Iraq. The US and MIT sent out urgent messages to airports and border crosses, warning of possible attacks.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 9:35:51 AM ||
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Hey what's wrong with this picture, I thought Turkey got a pass from terrorism. They refused to let our 4th Heavy Armored Division embark from Turkey. Do these terrorists have not respect or shame?
#2
How's that appeasement working out for you, Turkey?
Guess even with it, you're not Moslem enough for Al-Q.
Might want to think very hard about that. Your future. Your choice.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 10:57 Comments ||
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Turkey doesn't show up at the top of the appeasment list. But what I see here is muslim-on-muslim carnage. Speaks volumes about what al-q is all about.
You may not have heard of her yet, but you are sure to hear a lot about this ambitious talented woman as November approaches.
Masry surprised everyone when she was selected as the Democratic candidate for California's37 th Assembly District in March2004 , breaking ground for Arab women in the US political arena. In an amazingly spectacular write in campaign, which is almost unprecedented in California, she garnered local, national and international attention for her outstanding achievement and for her unique background.
Ferial Amin Masry has qualified as a Democratic write-in candidate in the 37th Assembly District for the fall general election while winning a seat outright on the Ventura County Democratic Central Committee. If elected in November, the 55 -year-old U.S. government teacher would become the nation's first Saudi born to hold elective office in the U.S., becoming California's first Arab American woman to serve in the Legislature, and one of only a few in the nation to be elected as a state lawmaker.
In the meantime, Masry is certainly occupied with thoughts of her oldest child, Mohammed Omar Masry, aged 24 , a U.S. Army sergeant in Baghdad, helping to rebuild Iraqi schools. "He has a lot of conversations with people in the Arab world, trying to introduce them to the other side of America: why it's there and what it's trying to do," she said. "And in my campaign, I'm representing a lot of [Arab] women who don't have a chance. I'm giving a new dimension to people's understanding of the Middle East."
Masry was born in Mecca into the upper middle class. Her father earned a living by arranging pilgrimages to the holiest city of Islam. She was educated in Egypt and graduated from the University of Cairo with a degree in journalism. Masry said she gained her strength from her mother and other female relatives.
She lived in London, Nigeria and Canada, before arriving in the U.S. in 1979 , the only one of seven siblings to immigrate to America. Three brothers still live in the Saudi Kingdom and three sisters in London. She moved with her husband Waleed to Southern California in 1979. Waleed and Ferial Masry opened a small business upon arriving in the Golden State. She then returned to school for a teaching credential and a Masters Degree in School Administration from California Lutheran University. Today, she teaches government and history at Cleveland High School in Los Angeles. She stresses to her students, who come from many ethnic backgrounds, that they must learn their history and be proud of who they are.
Once settled in Ventura County in 1983 , she raised three children and for 10 years ran an Islamic school that taught culture and the Arabic language.
On the political front, Masry protested against the 1991 Persian Gulf War. She describes the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan as "aggression" and believes the current Iraq War is a mistake, too. "The U.S. destroyed the whole Middle East by attacking Afghanistan," she said.
Where were you on 9/11 again?
Ferial's mother never learned to read or write, but she sent her girls to be educated in Egypt. "She sent three little girls to Egypt to be educated," Masry said. "I remember the day she gave us our clothes, and she put candy in my hand, and put us on the airplane and said 'go.' "
Meanwhile, back in her native country, her success has not gone unnoticed. "I was the first woman ever to be on the cover of a Saudi magazine without a headscarf," she said. Masry would like to be an inspiration to Saudis, as well as Americans. "I think a lot of people are watching, especially women," she said. "It gives them hope and courage to ask for their rights."
Regardless of the outcome of the November elections, one thing is clear — Masry is a true leader and serves as an inspiration and role model for many other Arab Americans who wish to take part in U.S. politics or in any other influential field. The question that remains on the minds of many, especially in the Middle East is obvious — what would be the political chances of this woman in her native homeland?
Posted by: tipper ||
10/04/2004 11:22:21 AM ||
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On the positive side, if you don't like the policies she implements you can throw acid in her face and sell her for a goat.
On the political front, Masry protested against the 1991 Persian Gulf War. She describes the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan as âaggressionâ and believes the current Iraq War is a mistake, too.
Yep, she's a Dim, all right.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 12:48 Comments ||
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"The U.S. destroyed the whole Middle East by attacking Afghanistan"
Since most definitions of the "Middle East" only go as far east as Iran, that would make this the Mother of All Collateral Damage.
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
10/04/2004 13:12 Comments ||
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She describes the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan as âaggressionâ
Which of the following did she have to say about Sept 11 (check all that apply)
o Mossad did it
o CIA did it
o It was simply a bad day for aviation: all the pilots were drunk and there was no other "foul play" involved
o The buildings fell because of faulty (Jewish) engineering
o bin laden did it, but he's a Jew
o allah akhbar
#5
In just 25 short years she has crossed that great divide and become a dhimicrat. Looking at her past residence I am not surprised. She was on the liberal underground railroad to America (UK-CAN-US). Wonder what her chances are?
#2
Polls are nice for looking at but I doubt many people moved one way or another based on that debate. Fact is there are fewer people to move either way. Check out the electorial map and you see that the trend right now still put Bush in the White House (again).
#3
Interesting link, Sarge; but there are too many states in the "Barely Bush" and "Weak Bush" categories to give me much comfort.
These are, indeed, trying times.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
10/04/2004 8:04 Comments ||
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The Voter Registration deadline was yesterday for most states which require application by 30 days prior to election day. The pool is closed. Please add more chlorine. Alot more.
#6
We have all known the election would be close. The Convention gave W a nice bounce and made everyone feel comfy. It is a battle for the Whitehouse. It soesn't matter if W isn't eloquent to me. It does matter to me what Kerry did in 1971.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
10/04/2004 9:37 Comments ||
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funny that when Gallup had Bush up by 8 points, the Dems were all aflutter claiming their poling technique was anitquated or faulty.
#10
Dave, I have been tracking the electorial college count and it looks pretty steady for Bush. Since the begining of September he's had a 50+ Electorial count lead and over the 270 needed to claim the White House. The reason I like this site is that he uses a lot of local polling agencies which gives you a better state-by-state representation.
Money trail behind Kerry's Iran stance
Sen. John Kerry's call for providing Iran with the nuclear fuel it seeks, even while the regime is believed to be only months away from developing nuclear weapons, is being linked to his campaign contributions from backers of the mullah government in Tehran. During last Thursday's nationally televised debate between the Democratic presidential candidate and President Bush, Kerry insisted as president he would provide Tehran with the nuclear fuel it wants for a pledge to use it for peaceful purposes only. "I think the United States should have offered the opportunity to provide the nuclear fuel, test them, see whether or not they were actually looking for it for peaceful purposes," Kerry said in a critique of the Bush administration's handling of Tehran's nuclear program, which the Iranians claim is only for civilian purposes. The comments came in response to a question about whether diplomacy and sanctions can resolve the "nuclear problems" with North Korea and Iran. "If they weren't willing to work a deal, then we could have put sanctions together," Kerry said of Tehran. "The president did nothing."
Among Kerry's top fund-raisers are three Iranian-Americans who have been pushing for dramatic changes in U.S. policy toward the Islamic Republic of Iran. Most prominent among them is Hassan Nemazee, 54, an investment banker based in New York. Nominated to become U.S. ambassador to Argentina by President Clinton in 1999, Nemazee eventually withdrew his nomination after a former partner raised allegations of business improprieties, WND previously reported. Nemazee was a major Clinton donor, giving $80,000 to the Democratic National Committee during the 1996 election cycle and attending at least one of the famous White House fund-raising coffees. In 2001, at the invitation of Mobil Oil Chairman Lucio Noto, whom he counts as a "personal friend," Nemazee joined the board of the American-Iranian Council, a U.S. lobbying group that consistently has supported lifting U.S. sanctions on Iran and accommodating the Tehran regime. The Kerry camp has identified Nemazee as having raised more than $100,000 for the senator's campaign, WND reported last spring.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
10/04/2004 1:36:54 AM ||
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I cannot get over the fact that Americans (my mother inlaw is one of them) after hearing Kerry's position on Iran Nuclear Program would still vote for him. They really live in a bubble where, to them, the most pressing issue is free health care.
#5
This article doesnât pass the stink test. Kerry supposedly advocates an Iran policy because of at most a few hundred thousand dollar contributions? Give me a break. To the Kerry campaign that is chump change.
Here is a more likely reason:
Kerry sees the Iranian confrontation as a Bush weakness. So Kerry offers an âalternativeâ. Sure the alternative sucks, but the people who know that arenât likely to vote for Kerry anyway.
Kerry is trying to appeal to the âinternationalâ constituency. These are people who view the US as an arrogant bully. Why should the US be able to dictate Iranian âenergyâ policy?
Kerry covers his pandering for the âinternationalâ vote by focusing on the US controlling the uranium fuel cycle. (Basically that is how anti-proliferation is supposed to work. Nuclear countries provide technology and fuel for peaceful energy generation in exchange for international monitoring and controlling the fuel cycle to prevent bomb development.) Bush voters know that nuclear power generation by Iran makes no economic sense and that the Iranian program is a poorly disguised weapons program. They arenât amused by Kerryâs ânuanceâ. But they werenât going to vote for Kerry anyway. (Personally, I believe Kerry got this wrong. People will move toward Bush because of Kerryâs Iran position.)
John: âSoooo, are the Iranians just saying they are rejecting Kerry's nuke proprosal while backdoor deals are going on?â
I doubt it. If the mullahs accepted nuclear fuel from the US, they would have no justification for the centrifuges that they use to make enriched uranium for their âenergyâ program. So the international community might demand that enrichment equipment be destroyed.
Iâm surprised that Iran publicly denounced the plan. I would have expected Iran to give mixed signals while continuing bomb development. (Iâm guessing that the mullahâs statement was motivated by internal politics rather than international politics.)
#6
Yes, he wouldn't do it only for contributors' sake. K's proposal fits the "global test" scheme. Work with UK, Fr., and Ger. and IAEA. doing the same all went so swimmingly well re NK, so it has to be a winner.
Posted by: Chicago Mike ||
10/04/2004 14:03 Comments ||
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The author of this article has as much credibility as the current President of the USA... none! Who are these bozos and what pathetic publication publishes them??? Kerry will determine foreign policy for $200,000 in campaign fundraising? What a joke! Finally, to refer to Iran as a blanket "mullah regime" just shows how misinformed and ignorant the writer truly is.
That's all? What the hell's the matter with the rest of us?
About one in four Americans holds anti-Muslim views, such as a belief that the religion teaches violence and hatred, according to a survey an Islamic advocacy group released Monday. The survey by the Council on American-Islamic Relations found a majority of Americans hold positive views of Muslims, while a substantial number have no opinion at all.
Put me down for a belief that CAIR spends a lot of money and time defending our enemies, both domestic and foreign...
Anti-Islamic sentiment surged in this country after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks by terrorists who claimed to be acting in the name of the faith.
Now, why in the hell would that happen?
Since then, anti-Muslim views have been encouraged by a continuing string of terror attacks, including decapitations, in Iraq, as well as a violent attack on school children in Russia, said Omar Ahmad, chairman of the council's board. "They have nothing to do with Islam. People claim they are doing it for Islam, but it's really in spite of Islam," Ahmad said.
Yet somehow they're all equipped with turbans and automatic weapons and the ubiquitous Koran...
The telephone survey of a random sample of 1,000 American adults found that just over one in four people somewhat or strongly agreed with a series of anti-Muslim sentiments including: the Muslim religion teaches violence and hatred (26 percent agreed); Muslims value life less than other people (27 percent agreed); and Muslims want to change the American way of life (29 percent agreed).
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 8:57:19 PM ||
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What the hell's the matter with the rest of us?
They have been sold the ROP BS by Bush and MSM. One more attack and the gloves come off. I'm sure Bush has told the Soddies and Perv that and that's part of why they play ball. Probably reminded them of what we did to the Nazis and Japanese from a standing start in less than 4 years.
Besides, this is a CAIR study so they found nothing to bitch about. Too bad for them.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 21:19 Comments ||
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#2
Hmm. When they scream "Allah Akbar" and kill someone it has nothing to do with Islam? Gosh really. I must be confused.
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 22:05 Comments ||
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"They have nothing to do with Islam. People claim they are doing it for Islam, but it's really in spite of Islam," Ahmad said.
I call bullshit. They (the terrorist) are the embodiment of the Islamic religion - murder, rape, killing in the name of allah, lying to infidels to advance the the killing and rape (this is what CAIR is doing), and death.
The only reason more americans are not anti-muslim is that we are truely tolerant and most either have not heard the true nature of islam ( see MSM covering for their allies the terrorists's raping and murdering of children ) or simply are unable or unwilling to understand that there *is* evil in the world and its name is Islam.
Akbar: "Hello, this is Allen from CAIR, a Muslim
organization based in the US"
Joe: (Average American who doesn't know
enough to distinguish CAIR from Hamas
or Al Q, red flags go up all over).
"We're having dinner, what do you want?"
Akbar: "Do you think our religion teaches violence
and hatred?"
Joe: (Thinking to himself, yes I do but I'm not
telling you)
"No."
Call Ends .....
Joe: "Sally, be right back. Going to Walmart for
a case of shotgun shells"
--------------------
So, I think the survey means about 25% of us
already have our shells ;-)
#9
Count me among the 25% that feel they bring a lot of hate to the table. I would feel differently if they would denounce just one attack on civilians. I am not talking about CAIR, I am talking about the local Imman. The one near us think that we cheat our god because we only attend church on Sunday. Like we walk out the door and completly forget about the sermon or ten commandments. Stepping up and calling a spade a spade would do a lot to help relations. I mean really demouncing it, not just some droning statemnet wher they affix blame to many people and then condem the act.
#10
Salman Rushdie writes a book, and the Muslim clerics fall all over themselves saying such a deed is so evil, all Muslims must kill him. But where is the fatwah against Osama bin Laden or the brutal child-murderers of Beslan? I'm looking for more than pronouncements to the western press that Islam is a religion of peace. Time for any truly peaceful Muslims to start denouncing the savages as forcefully and publicly as they went after Rushdie.
Posted by: Major Domo ||
10/04/2004 23:19 Comments ||
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ROP or ROTS?
(Religion of Peace OR Religion of Throat Slitters?)
#12
But where is the fatwah against Osama bin Laden or the brutal child-murderers of Beslan?
Major Domo, I asked this same question within weeks of the 9-11 atrocity. "Where is the death fatwah against bin Laden for desecrating all Islam with his atrocities?
The reply I got from some very learned (non-Arabic) Islamic scholars was that moderate Islam has no wish to imitate the jihadis by issuing such terminal edicts.
Now is the time to call "BULLSHIT."
If Islam wants to remain intact, they had better begin declaring death sentences against those who defile their faith. If not, silence is consent.
It sounds all well and fine that no one wants to assume the same violent motif against others, until you consider that Islam is about to be melted down by nuclear annihilation if they do not take substantial measures against those who commit atrocities in its name.
#13
Major Domo, here is the exact text of what I wrote back then. I've yet to get an acceptable answer:
After giving Islam the blackest of eyes, I have yet to see any Muslim cleric or council issue a fatwa seeking the death of bin Laden. If anybody is aware of this please post a link. I have seen nothing of the sort in any news, anywhere. As so many Arab Muslims proclaim unwarranted persecution subsequent to the 9-11 atrocity I remain amazed at a profound dichotomy in a lot of their rhetoric.
It has been claimed by Muslim anti-American elements that the 9-11 atrocities were actually implemented by the United States or Jewish subversives, seeking some pretext for a purge of Islam's followers. Yet, in the same breath many of these same people also say, "America had it coming..." One cannot have it both ways. Was this a non-Arab conspiracy or terrorist atrocity?
Such sanctimonious attempts to make both claims at once perfectly expose the hypocrisy and overarching malignancy of this sort of mentality. Osama bin Laden's evil acts have so tainted the global perception of Islam that one would think several fatwas would have been issued already. A death fatwa, like that decreed against Salman Rushdie, would be one of the few concrete actions to persuade world opinion that bin Laden acted against all Islamic principles.
It is impossible not to believe that many fundamentalist Muslim clerics and practitioners maintain the dichotomous precepts mentioned above. The complete absence of any Islamic death warrant against bin Laden stands as stark testimony to the undercurrent of retribution sought by these fanatics. The deafening silence of so many Muslims concerning the apprehension and trial of bin Laden for his crimes constitutes a tacit approval and utterly contradicts their cries of unwarranted persecution.
#14
If the choice is between the common good, what is just, what is legal and moral and denouncing a fellow muslim. The fellow muslim is more important. It an article of islamic faith. This is why Islam can not be trusted.
It has nothing us hating islam. I refuse to be consumed by something that will eat my soul. However can you trust people who put coreligionists no matter how evil, criminal and, vile ahead of what is good, moral and correct? How can you trust that?
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. (AP) -- Members of a mosque are fighting to keep their place of worship as the federal government probes a link between the Islamic Center of Springfield and a benefactor accused of financing terrorism around the world. The center is owned by the Saudi-based Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, which U.S. authorities accuse of diverting donations to support a web of terrorist activities. The Saudi government dissolved the foundation this summer. But center supporters claim the Saudi charity was simply a one-time donor whose name ended up on its property title. "There isn't any evidence that the center was used to solicit funds or to contribute funds to terrorism," said Ahmed Ibrahim, an associate history professor at Southwest Missouri State University. "Many people are angry and upset that they are seen as contributing to terrorism."
Got any evidence it's not? Got any evidence your mosque isn't controlled by an inimical foreign power?
Last month, the Bush administration designated Al-Haramain as a group suspected of supporting terrorism through its Springfield mosque and its main location in Ashland, Ore., saying the charity "shows direct links between the U.S. branch and Osama bin Laden." Assets of the two properties have been frozen since February. The federal probe suggests the Islamic Center was a front that enabled the laundering of money to terrorists overseas. The foundation has denied that its U.S. branch funded terrorism.
"No, no! Certainly not!"
An attorney representing members of the mosque had asked Al-Haramain before it was dissolved to acknowledge its one-time donation was a gift and to correct the alleged title error. "It's not going to be an easy situation," said Merrill Talpers, the attorney for mosque members. "We've got to get them to renounce any interest they have."
Somehow I doubt they'll be willing to give up control...
The Islamic Center's opening was a boon for Muslims here, who for years set up makeshift mosques at locations ranging from the basement of a doctor's office to various spots on the Southern Missouri State University campus. "We do feel kind of on the spot, but we don't have anything to hide. We believe the law will absolve us," said Dr. M. Hasan Choudhury, a Springfield physician. "It's tough to be Muslim these days."
At least nobody's cutting your head off...
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 8:50:29 PM ||
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Anybody know if that is the same outfit that was looking build a big mosque in Boston?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
10/05/2004 2:07 Comments ||
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Islam, formerly singer CAT STEVENS, converted to Islam in 1977 and has often been maligned for his religious choices - as part of a culture, which he claims is greatly misunderstood.
And he feels Muslims have themselves partly to blame for the problems because they are too peaceful and rarely speak out about misinformation and injustice.
I see the check's arrived from Riyadh.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 21:26 Comments ||
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I still listen to him occasionally and celebrate his christian outlook. Hope that doesn't mess up his raisins in the afterlife :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 22:07 Comments ||
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Oh, the injustice of another Hamas mouthpiece being blocked from a visit to the US of A. How can we stand it?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
10/05/2004 0:36 Comments ||
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A man accused of sending envelopes full of white powder to more than two dozen Broward County cities said mind control made him do it.
I guess he's been doing more with white powder than mailing it.
Dane Swindell said the county implanted mind control devices in the ear canals of all gay inmates, including him.
"Is that a mind control device, or are you just happy to see me?"
However, there is no record that Swindell was ever in a Broward County jail.
Well, of course they erased all the records, it's a secret evil plot.
All the powder tested negative for anthrax. Swindell was arrested by the FBI in his Memphis home. It's believed he may have also sent eight bomb threat letters to Fort Lauderdale area elementary schools in August and September.
Did they stick something in his ear as well?
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 12:55:44 PM ||
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Dane Swindell said the county implanted mind control devices in the ear canals of all gay inmates, including him.
I thought it was the aliens who escaped the Air Force folks at Area 51.
Who are we allowed to seize as hostage? Who are we allowed to kill?
For the past few weeks these questions have prompted much debate throughout the Muslim world. The emerging answer to both questions is: Anyone you like! Triggered by the atrocity at a school in Beslan, in southern Russia, last month, the debate has been further fueled by kidnappings and "exhibition killings" in Iraq. Non-Muslims may find it strange that such practices are debated rather than condemned as despicable crimes. But the fact is that the seizure of hostages and "exhibition killing" go back to the early stages of Islamic history. In the Arabia of the seventh century, where Islam was born, seizing hostages was practiced by rival tribes, and "exhibition killing" was a weapon of psychological war. The Prophet codified those practices, ending freelance kidnappings and head-chopping. One principle of the new code was that Muslims could not be held hostage by Muslims. Nor could Muslims be subjected to "exhibition killing." Such methods were to be used solely against non-Muslims, and then only in the context of armed conflict.
Posted by: tipper ||
10/04/2004 11:44:48 AM ||
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Debate among yourselves about the topic. However, when you get done you had better come up with the answer:
THERE WILL NOT BE HOSTAGE TAKING. ITS GETS YOU A SPEEDY TRIP TO WHATEVER IS MUSLIM HELL. WE WILL DESIGN IT FOR YOU IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT WHAT IT IS!!!
#2
Since it has basically been deemed OK by the high powers, does this mean we can begin to expect hostage taking and beheadings - here in the US - with sanction from the high courts of Islam?
Al Qaeda-linked terror group Jamaah Islamiyah uses Indonesia as its base camp to spread its programs around the globe as part of its end goal of establishing a universal Islamic state, says a thousand-page book about the group launched on Sunday. "The JI movement is very organized and has prepared a sacred text known as PUPJI (General Guidelines for Jamaah Islamiyah's Struggle) that contains the objectives, targets and strategies for its top agenda of establishing khilafah (a global Islamic state)," book co-author Agus Maftuh Abegebriel said. Written in Indonesian the book, "Negara Tuhan (God state): the Thematic Encyclopedia", was launched at the Saphir Yogyakarta Hotel by the Siyasa Research Institute (SR-Ins), which studies international Islamic politics.
Syrian and U.S. officials held talks in Washington on threatened sanctions against the Commercial Bank of Syria over allegations of financing terrorism, the official news agency SANA reported on Sunday. It said the talks Saturday involving Syrian Finance Minister Mohammed al-Hussein and U.S. Treasury officials were a follow-up to consultations held last month in Damascus and that the last outstanding issues were resolved. Dureid Dargham, director of the state-owned bank, also took part in the talks in Washington and said that he hoped for greater cooperation between the two sides "rather than a futile confrontation." The United States has raised concerns over the alleged involvement of the Syrian bank in money-laundering operations and the financing of terrorism, threatening sanctions under the U.S. Patriot Act passed after the Sept. 11. 2001, attacks.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 9:16:52 PM ||
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GW hasn't shown me much futile confrontation yet.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
10/05/2004 2:17 Comments ||
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A secret Syrian and Iraqi smuggling network that made billions of dollars busting U.N. sanctions during Saddam Hussein's regime is now involved in organizing and financing violent anti-U.S. guerrillas in Iraq, The Post has learned. According to U.S. intelligence officials and Syrian exiles, the network, once involved in oil and arms smuggling as well as scamming the U.N. oil-for-food program before the war, has morphed into an increasingly organized command and control structure to coordinate much of the terrorist campaign in Iraq. The officials said the shadowy structure, with bases of operation in Syria, is made up of Saddam's cousins, clansmen and ex-aides who are actively supported by some family members of Syria's ruling elite and at least two powerful Syrian generals. "It is part of a pattern of relationships that started in the 1990s for strategic and commercial purposes. It involved a lot of very powerful families from both countries who made millions of dollars together," said Farid Jhadry of the Reform Party of Syria, an exile group with close contacts at the Pentagon and State Department.
Last week, after months of pressure from the United States, the State Department announced that Syrian President Bashar Assad had agreed to take "specific steps" to stop the flow of arms and fighters across Syria's border with Iraq. But there are doubts about whether Assad is willing or able to shut down the network. "There has been a great deal of fragmentation of the power center after the death of Assad's father [former Syrian President Hafez Assad]. There are branches of the security services and even some ministries that basically act independently," said Ammar Abdulhamid, a prominent Syrian political and social analyst.
At the head of this network, U.S. intelligence officials say, is Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, Saddam's deputy military commander. Duri, who has a $10 million U.S. bounty on his head, has been holding meetings with other Iraqi Ba'athists and members of Saddam's Tikrit and al-Majid clans inside Syria to coordinate movement of weapons, fighters and money for Iraqi terrorist groups, according to intelligence reports. A group of Saddam's cousins, who are co-coordinating the financing of the rebel campaign, also operate in the network, U.S. intelligence officials say. The group reportedly has access to up to $4 billion that Saddam looted from Iraq's treasury and scammed from the oil-for-food program. U.S. intelligence officials also say the ring includes wealthy relatives of Syrian government officials.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 9:11:58 PM ||
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So the UN is complicit in creating an organized crime operation that morphed into an organization that facilitates international terror. The dollar value of the al-Duri operation seems to dwarf the Syrian economy.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
10/05/2004 2:15 Comments ||
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One of Iran's most outspoken reformists, Vice President Mohammad Ali Abtahi, announced yesterday he had submitted his resignation from the increasingly isolated pro-reform government. "It is up to the president to approve this decision," Abtahi told the student news agency ISNA, adding that President Mohammad Khatami — who has a total of eight vice presidents in his Cabinet — should reach a decision soon.
News of Abtahi's intention to quit came a day after the now conservative-controlled Parliament impeached the reformist transport minister, Ahmad Khorram, for mismanagement, corruption, a spate of accidents and favoring foreign firms in handing out government contracts. Abtahi, a jovial and rotund mid-ranking cleric who is vice president for judicial and parliamentary affairs, has been one of the most outspoken members of Khatami's government. But he said that working with hard-liners, who took control of Parliament in May after most reformists were barred from contesting February elections, had become impossible. "For some time I have reached the conclusion that given the differences between my political viewpoints and those of the Parliament, I cannot fulfill my responsibilities," Abtahi told ISNA. "For this reason, I have since some time presented my resignation to President Mohammad Khatami so that the understanding between the government and the parliament can be improved," he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 8:05:02 PM ||
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8 Vps. Talk about redundancy.
Until one of these dudes declares the govt illegitimate and tries a coup or to lead a general insurrection, it's just posturing.
Syrian President Bashar Assad reshuffled his Cabinet yesterday, naming eight first-time ministers to key posts such as interior, economy and information in an apparent bid to revive the country's staggering reforms. Ghazi Kanaan, a former head of Syrian military security and intelligence in Lebanon, was named interior minister, the official Syrian Arab News Agency reported. "It is an expected change that comes as a step in the reform process," said analyst Imad Al-Shuaibi. "It does not necessarily indicate a problem in the performance of outgoing ministers ... it reflects the desire for improved performance." The interior portfolio change comes eight days after the assassination in Damascus of an official of Hamas. Syria blamed Israel for the killing and Israeli media, citing unidentified security sources, also said Israel was behind it.
The reshuffle of the one-year-old Cabinet handed the information portfolio to Mahdi Dakheelallah, the editor in chief of the Baath ruling party's newspaper. Amer Lotfi, the manager of the state-owned cotton exporter in Aleppo, replaced Ghassan Al-Rifai, a former World Bank official, as economy and commerce minister. Rifai was in the first Cabinet appointed by Assad after he assumed power in 2000 succeeding his late father Hafez Assad. The industry portfolio went to Ghassan Tayara, the country's engineers' syndicate chief. The reshuffle also included the portfolios of health, Islamic endowments, justice and social affairs, and labor.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/04/2004 7:58:40 PM ||
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anyone know what this means? More coop? Less coop?
#2
This is a case of the U.S. telling Syria clean up your backyard or we will clean it for you. Syria would have never made any changes without being backed into a corner. Personally, I think this is another Assad shell game, until the U.S elections.
EFL: At a time when Iran finds itself under increasing international pressure over its nuclear program, the country's domestic political balance is coming under increasing strain. A new Iranian neo-conservative movement, comprised mostly of young and fervent advocates of Islamic republican ideals, is making a bid to seize control of Iran's political agenda.
The "Iran ain't Islamic Enough" crowd.
It is too soon to tell whether the power play by neo-conservatives, many of whom operate under an umbrella group called Abadgaran (The Developers of Islamic Iran), will succeed. If it does, there could be a marked increase in international tension hovering over the Middle East. At the very least, Iran seems destined to experience domestic political turbulence in the immediate future.
The Iranian neo-cons have surprised political observers by moving quickly to advance a hard-line legislative agenda in parliament. The Abadgaran faction has pushed for new laws that effectively hamper foreign investment, make it more difficult for the government to negotiate deals with foreign companies and roll back privatization plans. The pending legislation has already caused problems for Iranian diplomacy. President Mohammad Khatami recently was forced to call off a visit to Turkey, where he had planned to sign commercial and security agreements that had been the subject of months of painstaking negotiations.
No foreign trade, no cash for the current mullahs retirement fund.
Abadgaran's aggressive pursuit of its political vision seems to have caught not only Khatami-aligned reformists off guard, it also has surprised Old-Guard conservatives — namely the actual participants in the 1979 Islamic revolution whose idealism has faded over subsequent decades. The young neo-cons still tenaciously believe in the earlier utopian notions of the revolution; a theocratic and authoritarian state structure; an egalitarian and state-owned economic system; and a messianic foreign policy.
Taliban on steroids
A September 24 editorial in the conservative paper Ressalat indicated that many members of the Old Guard believe Abadgaran is trying to take Iran in a dangerous direction. "We had all accepted it that the new parliament should be free of tension and discord particularly with the government," the paper said. "But instead, an image is being formed that sensationalism, politicking, and above all, heady radicalism and extremism are becoming the norm there."
Abadgaran adherents, many of whom have served as commanders in Iran's Revolutionary Guard, believe that generation change is needed to safeguard the Islamic revolution.
They don't want to wait till they're old men to take over.
Most are relatively unknown politicians, with little or no public record. This, they hope, can help them gain public approval, or at least a large enough share of it so that they can effectively govern.
Two trends in recent years played key roles in the creation of Abadgaran: the rise of reformists under Khatami at home, and the ascendancy of the Bush administration in Washington harboring notions of "regime change" in Tehran. The twin threats to conservatives' political power in Iran forced a tactical change: Old Guard leaders gave the young neo-cons an opening, hoping to harness the youngsters' energy in efforts to neutralize reformists, blunt Bush administration pressure and reinvigorate the stagnant economy.
They thought they could control them, kind of like the Saudis did with their young jihadis.
The rise of Abadgaran certainly helped conservatives outmaneuver reformists in the domestic political arena. Now, with the reformists in retreat, Abadgaran members clearly want to develop into the dominant faction within the conservative camp. In striving to do so, the movement has attracted the backing of the Revolutionary Guards and many hardliners within the political and security establishments, as well as a significant number of religiously-inclined members of Iran's lower and middle classes.
"What do we want? POWER! When do we want it? NOW!"
At present, Abadgaran is using parliamentary patronage and favors to expand its support within the broader conservative community. For instance, Parliament recently allocated $800 million to the Imam Rescue Committee, a conservative social welfare organization that was believed to be heading for a major anti-corruption investigation just two months ago.
"The Imam Rescue Committee, providing interest free loans to holy men in trouble."
Meanwhile, in an effort to cement good-will with hardliners, Abadgaran MPs have worked on legislation that would place the non-partisan Ministry of Intelligence under the control of the conservative-dominated judiciary. Over the near term, Abadgaran appears determined to crush the reformists as a political force. The experts suggest that Abadgaran's recent legislative push is designed to deny reformists a legacy on which they could mount a viable campaign to retain the presidency in the May 2005 election. Some observers also believe Abadgaran may spearhead an effort to impeach members of Khatami's administration, starting with Minister of Transport Ahmad Khoram.
In the international arena, the neo-conservatives in alliance with other hard-line forces are calling for a more aggressive foreign policy, under which an international effort to place limits on Iran's nuclear research is being met with calls for withdrawal from the Non-Proliferation Treaty. In addition, the neo-cons, as the recent flap over control of Tehran's new airport demonstrates, want to limit the ability of foreign companies to operate in Iran, and instead seek to award lucrative state contracts to individuals and entities that are aligned with their hard-line agenda. Members of the Old Guard retain considerable political influence, and there are some early signs that they are unwilling to cede control of the conservative political agenda to Abadgaran. Indeed, the young neo-cons may end up finding that their strongest opponents are their ideological forefathers.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 2:44:06 PM ||
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Steve, too funny!
Sounds like a lot of Persian blood will be spilled before this sorts itself out to some inevitable conclusion.
#7
This sounds like very bad news to me.The old guys may have been willing to leave w/all the money they've stolen.But younger ideological fanatics who are just tasting power will not give up w/out a fight.
Posted by: Stephen ||
10/04/2004 17:41 Comments ||
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Stephen,
Fight, yes, but with other's bodies. They are too preciousssss to risk an early departure to the paradise hell.
Increase in organized attacks against symbols of the regime!
(SMCCDI) Oct 3, 2004 {the SMCCDI is a student founded organization within Iran that is anti regime]
Several businesses reputed to be linked to the Mullahcracy, [a lot of such business are owned by Mullahs]
and a number of Islamic regime's patrol cars were destroyed or damaged in nightly commando style operations during the last 48 hours. In Tehran alone, unidentified individuals, whom the local residents call "Freedom Fighters," set 26 businesses on fire and destroyed 14 patrol vehicles and were able to escape from the scene unscathed. [this kind of thing has been going on intermittently for several years]
Posted by: mhw ||
10/04/2004 9:06:03 AM ||
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[this kind of thing has been going on intermittently for several years]
Probably could stand to be stepped up several more notches.
#2
Yo, Mikey Moore! These are REAL freedom fighters, unlike those terrorist clowns in Iraq you love so much.
Not that you'll notice or support them, since they're fighting for their actual freedom instead of to destroy Bush (and America).
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 11:03 Comments ||
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#3
this kind of thing has been going on intermittently for several years] Probably could stand to be stepped up several more notches.
I may have created a false impression. When I said 'this kind of thing', I meant targetted destruction of property. For awhile, the freedom fighters were targetting the homes of friday prayer leaders who were notoriously part of the ruling clique. There was another period where the garages of govt buildings were targetted. The targeting of business owned by the Mullarchy is quite new.
In the latest blow to the administration of reformist President Mohammad Khatami, Iran's conservative-dominated parliament impeached the transportation minister on Sunday, accusing him of financial mismanagement and a shady aviation deal. After several hours of debate, 188 legislators voted to strip Ahmad Khorram of his Cabinet post. Fifty-eight voted in his favor and nine abstained. Conservative lawmakers raised loud cheers of "Allahu akbar" or "God is great." A senior conservative lawmaker, former deputy foreign minister Alaeddin Boroujerdi, said the vote was parliament's "show of strength." The conservatives accused Khorram of financial mismanagement and of jeopardizing Iran's security by signing a deal with TAV, a Turkish-Austrian aviation consortium, to operate at the new Imam Khomeini International Airport on the outskirts of Tehran.
"What's he doing bringin' dem furriners in here! Next thing ya know he'll allow women to show a little leg, and then where are we, I ask yas?
#2
Feelings about the Turkish contract rose so high that the elite Revolutionary Guards, who support the conservatives, shut down the airport on the day of its inauguration in May. The airport remains closed.
The mullahs' international airport is still the best place on the planet for skateboarding, roller skating and go-carting.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
10/04/2004 5:31 Comments ||
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..the administration of reformist President Mohammad Khatami,..
#6
Lazy and idiotic MSM journalists notwithstanding, what exactly is an Iranian "reformist"? Someone who believes in hanging children instead of stoning them to death?
By Jules Crittenden
Beneath all the public reasons for invading Iraq lies a secret war agenda that has paid off in the war on al-Qaeda, according to a leading intelligence analyst.
``The Bush administration has been represented as strategically stupid but adept at political manipulation. The opposite is true,'' said George Friedman, president of Stratfor, a firm that delivers global strategic forecasting and open-source intelligence analysis to corporate clients.
Friedman's book, ``America's Secret War: Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle Between America and its Enemies,'' which goes on sale Tuesday, argues that midway through the war on terrorism, America has made major gains while al-Qaeda has failed in most of its goals and is on the defensive. Iraq, he argues, is a keystone of American strategy against al-Qaeda.
In the decision to invade Iraq, he argues, disarming a dangerous dictator and bringing democracy to the Middle East were secondary war goals. The factor that tipped the balance in internal Bush administration debates in mid-2002 was Saudi Arabia's recalcitrance in the war on al-Qaeda, he says.
America's invasion of Iraq put pressure on the Saudis that forced them to act against al-Qaeda sympathizers within Saudi Arabia in ways the Saudis had been unwilling to do, Friedman said.
In the past year, Friedman argues, it has worked. The Saudis, shaken by America's action, has engaged in a ``civil war'' against al-Qaeda, killing operatives, busting up cells and cracking down on the group's financial network.
``The problem is that the administration can't explain that this is blackmail on the Saudis. So it turns to WMD,'' Friedman said about the reasons given for the Iraq war. He argued that America was compelled to continue strong action after the Afghan campaign.
``Doing nothing would have been disastrous,'' Friedman said.
Gains against al-Qaeda so far, he said, include:
action to isolate nukes, include undercover special operations agents monitoring Pakistan's nuclear weapons facility;
significant damage to al-Qaeda's fund-raising aparatus.
better cooperation from intelligence agencies in Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
But the high-stakes game of brute-force foreign policy has been poorly executed, creating a new series of problems, Friedman argues. He criticizes the administration for failing to build up U.S. military strength and commit enough forces to Iraq. The administration also failed to recognize that Saddam had planned a guerrilla war after his predictable fall and that Iran had heavily infiltrated the Iraqi Shiites.
A Shiite-dominated Iraq was meant to divide the Muslim world and further weaken al-Qaeda, Friedman said. But efforts to rein in the Shiites and cut deals with the Sunni minority in Iraq angered Iran, which is now making trouble by posturing itself as a soon-to-be nuclear power - although, he says, the mullahs know the U.S. and Israel will never let them complete have a deliverable nuke.
Posted by: Anonymous5089 ||
10/04/2004 10:18:58 AM ||
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Interesting, but to what extent has the Magic Kingdom actually cracked down? Just enough to keep the lid on a boiling pot, it seems to me. The Saudis need to do much more.
#2
"He criticizes the administration for failing to build up U.S. military strength and commit enough forces to Iraq."
Ok boys, its time to put up or shut up. Name the Operational Theater Commander who has asked for more troops and has been turned down?
Posted by: Don ||
10/04/2004 16:01 Comments ||
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He forgot to mention a few other master strokes. First of all, Iraq is smack dab in the middle of things. Not only Syria and Iran, but also Central Asia and Northern Africa. And, you'll note, that the establishment of a REGIONAL COMMAND there clearly denotes that this fact was not lost on us. This points the US bayonet at a LOT of hard cases, *and* protects the world's energy supply, *and* fractures the paradigm of the contentious Middle East. With Iraq as a safe harbor, eastern Asia is also opened up US influence. In other words, the US can now project force like never before. With Europe cooled, Iraq is the very best place to be.
#4
I would dispute the lack of other reasons besides pressuring Saudi Arabia to invade Iraq; however, what really bugs me is that the American public in general may never hear about this.
Slashdot ran a link to an extensive NY Times story about administration disputes about Iraqi WMD with the title "White House Lied About Iraqi Centrifuges." (Never mind that in the meantime, as a result of the Iraqi invasion, we've found a clandestine network that was building centrifuges and shipping them around...)
Putting pressure on the Saudis and others by invading Iraq only works when we don't have a candidate who's telling everyone he'll take the pressure off of them if he's elected.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
10/04/2004 17:09 Comments ||
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#5
typical Statfor. Having been proved wrong about the benefits of going into Iraq - they now grudgingly acknowledge that efforts in Iraq have crippled Al Qaeda but ....ya see....only cause the stupid Bush just got lucky as he bumbled along.
These guys should stop trying so hard to look down their nose - it's hindering their vision.
#6
Name the Operational Theater Commander who has asked for more troops and has been turned down?
Wesley Clark?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 17:48 Comments ||
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#7
"These guys should stop trying so hard to look down their nose - it's hindering their vision."
Very true; God bless 'em, though, for at least trying to see-- that's more than a lot of people are willing to do.
Shortly before we invaded Iraq I started keeping a list of what I thought we were probably trying to achieve-- of all the possible ways invading Iraq might work to our advantage in the larger war, as well as all the possible side benefits. I had no trouble at all listing dozens of things, including what Anonymoose mentioned above.
I've no idea why people cling to the notion that we went into Iraq "only" because of WMD, or for oil, or to stop the genocide. Maybe they simply aren't willing to trust Bush, and this inclination to distrust is being deliberately exploited, and amplified, by the Democrats for political gain.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
10/04/2004 17:52 Comments ||
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#8
I've always argued that one of the unstated key reasons for going into Iraq was to scare the daylights out of Muslim governments that have adopted anti-American terrorism as a tool of state policy. Not by sponsoring it wholeheartedly and overtly, but by helping out a little here and a little there. No one country took on the whole burden, but every country did its bit. By having a piece of al Qaeda here and a piece there, they tried to avoid potential American retaliation. Iraq bolstered American credibility by showing Muslim states that the US might attack them even without the existence of irrefutable evidence. Many are now rushing to divest themselves of anything that can remotely be linked to a future terror attack on US soil. Without this tolerance of al Qaeda operatives among Muslim countries, the chances for another 9/11-style attack on the US are pretty slim.
#9
I have always thought that going into Iraq was a right thing to do. There were lots of good reasons to do so. Iraq is a (there were others) linch-pin to mid-East. Something had to be done about the festering sore that existed there for all too long. I hope Zhang Fei's analysis is correct about the chances being slim for no more 9/11s here. Libia came around. The Saudi's seem to be slowly coming around. However, they have been playing both sides of the fence for a long time. I am not convinced they are not still playing this game. I never ever ever want to see another 9/11 on this soil.
#13
Just because it is easy to pull the wool over a sock puppet? Darn!
Posted by: john ||
10/04/2004 21:34 Comments ||
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#14
Mrs. Davis - Msr. Clark was a color commentator on CNN and NOT the Operational Theater Commander of forces in the Iraq or Afghan campaign. Its the commander on 'the ground' who determines the needs of the operation. The Nichols-Goldwater Act says who's in charge and a retired general without access to the J-3 and J-2 materials is not in the know. The N-G Act was put in place specifically to end the amount of micro-management of military operations from people sitting thousands of miles away from the fight in the Beltway. Again I ask, what Operational Theater Commander in Iraq has requested additional troops and has been denied?
Posted by: Don ||
10/05/2004 9:27 Comments ||
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FACED WITH the series of beheadings and other grisly crimes committed in Iraq by the followers of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Westerners may wonder why this gang should call itself "Monotheism and Jihad." The group's Arabic name, Tawhid wa'al-Jihad, is often misleadingly translated "Unity and Jihad," which could lead English-speakers to suppose that Zarqawi and company are acting in the name of a united Iraqi nation, or of Arab unity, or of solidarity among jihadists or Muslims generally.
But Tawhid does not mean "unity," much less "unification"; it means "uniqueness," as in the uniqueness of God the Creator. To understand the theology behind this word is to appreciate the identity of the "foreign fighters" around Zarqawi--himself born in Jordan--and the purpose of their kidnappings and beheadings.
All Muslims, of course, are monotheists. Islam rejects the multiple gods and goddesses of the pagan religions, and proclaims the creation of the universe by a single God. But in the 18th century, Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, founder of the Wahhabi sect, asserted that Muslims had fallen away from true monotheism back into pagan unbelief: worship of multiple gods, or polytheism. Wahhabism, now the state religion of Saudi Arabia, continues to assert that Islam as practiced in nearly the whole of the global Muslim community outside the Saudi kingdom is actually apostasy.
This is a pretty good read on the roots of the intolerance that runs rampant with the worshippers of the moon God, particularly that animal Zarqawi. It doesn't shed any new light for RBer's, but it bears a look.
Posted by: JerseyMike ||
10/04/2004 9:58:25 AM ||
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Wahhabism, now the state religion of Saudi Arabia, continues to assert that Islam as practiced in nearly the whole of the global Muslim community outside the Saudi kingdom is actually apostasy.
Fine, have it your way. Now toddle off and kill all those Muslim apostates and don't get back to us until you're finished with the task at hand. Once that's accomplished, we'll be more than happy to start killing you Wahhabis all over again.
Sidebar: Monotheism is is not the issue here. Theocracy is.
#2
Article: Wahhabism, now the state religion of Saudi Arabia, continues to assert that Islam as practiced in nearly the whole of the global Muslim community outside the Saudi kingdom is actually apostasy.
I don't really have a problem with that position. What I have a problem with is that they fund charities that arm people to kill these "apostates". Every revealed religion or religious denomination views other religions as involving the worship of false gods. Where Islam differs is that they arm their followers to conduct holy war against the unbelievers.
#3
sawwhere the schools in iraq are being taken overby mdrassa style goons. I'm sure thats safer for the kids than a reguler school ala jihsdies going boom. but unless we stop that it's onestep forward and one back. WE need to have those kids.
Posted by: Singh Ho ||
10/04/2004 19:59 Comments ||
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#6
Almighty Zeus, Father of the Gods and of men, hear me.
Kronosâ broad browed son, bend your head that our armies be saved, and not die in blood in the hot sands of a foreign land at the hands of the barbarians.
Zeus of the thunder, hold up your great scales and dole out doom to our enemies and yours; victory to our brave and selfless soldiers. Send your thunderbolts to strike Mecca and Medina, leaving only smoking rubble.
Phoebus Apollo, O God of the silver bow, that protectest Chryse and holy Cilla and rulest Tenedos with thy might, hear this my prayer.
I will ever deck your temples with garlands, and burn thigh-bones in fat of bulls or goats, should you grant my prayer, and let your arrows avenge these my tears.
Send plague and destruction into the camps of the enemy as you did at Aulis and on the plains of Troy.
Amen
Posted by: Daniel Dravot ||
10/06/2004 3:37 Comments ||
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There are ominous signs that, far from dying down, the conflicts in the Middle East are set to widen in the coming months, sucking in new actors and posing new threats to the United States and its allies. In the eyes of Arab and Islamic militants, the war against American forces in Iraq and Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation are increasingly seen as one and the same battle.
Funny thing, that. That's the way it looks from this end, too...
In the absence of any prospect for peace on either battlefield, alliances are being formed and command structures established which suggest that the struggle is entering a new and more lethal phase. Western intelligence sources report that a new high command is emerging made up of Hizbullah, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood (represented in the occupied Palestinian territories by Islamic Jihad); and, last but not least, the Islamic Republic of Iran. The striking features of this alliance are that it bridges the Sunni-Shiite divide and unites Arab nationalists and Islamists in a common cause. As a member of one of these groups put it to me: "There is today no difference between resistance and jihad."
I never even noticed that there was before...
Several factors lie behind the new, more organized and determined militancy. First, American backing for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon - for his expansion of Jewish settlements, his separation wall in the West Bank, and his all-out war against the Palestinians - has ruled out any prospect of a peaceful settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Having Yasser in charge of the Paleostinians was what killed that. You only try for so long. The wall's a tactical fix, not strategic. Yasser decomposing will be a strategic fix...
The international consensus of a two-state solution seems increasingly unrealistic. As a result, Palestinian moderates have been silenced while the Palestinian Authority has virtually collapsed under Israeli blows and the bitter frustration of a population under siege. The initiative has passed to militants who argue that there is no alternative but armed struggle.
Which has been Yasser's true position all along...
The huge sacrifices the Palestinians have endured in their four-year intifada are, paradoxically, seen as arguments for continuing the battle, however long it takes.
That's Arab logic: if something doesn't work, keep doing it. We have another word for it in the USA...
Second, in Iraq, American attempts to crush the insurgency by force (there are reports the U.S. is planning an all-out campaign before the end of the year to "clean out" Fallujah and other centers of resistance in preparation for elections in January) are rallying anti-American forces in many parts of the world. For Arab and Islamic militants, Iraq has become a fighting issue and a mobilizing cause as intense as the Palestinian cause itself.
It has been all along. Sammy's been defeated, but Iraq has become a war between the U.S. and international jihad...
Third, repeated American and Israeli threats to strike at Iran in order to destroy its alleged nuclear weapons program have also contributed to the hardening mood in that country and in the region.
I think the nuclear weapons program itself might have something to do with that...
They have encouraged hardliners in the Iranian regime to act forcefully and preemptively in both Iraq and the Palestinian and Lebanese arenas so as to hold American and Israeli ambitions in check.
Which has been Iranian policy since Khomeini...
The victory of the militants was not inevitable. Movements like Hizbullah and Hamas had long been reluctant to act outside their own respective battlefields of Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. They wanted their local grievances to be recognized and addressed. They sought to "engage" the United States and are still hoping for a change in American policy. But American and Israeli insistence to label, denounce and outlaw them as terrorist movements has, in fact, increased their popularity and legitimacy and driven them to seek a wider arena for their actions.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 12:42:45 AM ||
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Gloom and Doom and "we are all gonna die." I say BS on that. I ain't gonna die by this satanic scumbs hand. This islamic victory is inevitable crap is for losers.
#2
Yasser decomposing will be a strategic fix...
Whoever is chief thief of the Palestinians is just a tactical matter. The strategic picture will change when the West Bank Palestinians are expelled to Jordan or hung from lamp posts, as the Arabs did to the Jews. Either option works for me.
The US should also arm the feuding factions in the middle east and ignite the flames of factional and civil war. As is the muslim tendency, push the whole of the mideast into the Lord of the Flies.
Posted by: ed ||
10/04/2004 6:10 Comments ||
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#3
Ed, we don't need to exert ourselves to arm the Arab factions. Their charities are handling that very nicely all by themselves.
Open question: perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but when did Hizbullah or Hamas seek to engage the U.S. in any way that didn't involve bombs or bullets?
#4
Western intelligence sources report that a new high command is emerging made up of Hizbullah, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood (represented in the occupied Palestinian territories by Islamic Jihad)
Did you read John Loftus' column in Frontapge? The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda
#1
By establishing a string of what essentially are fire bases along the border, a virtual wall is created to cut off the free flow of villains in either direction. It also cuts off the transport of heavier weapons from the Pakistani arms markets, and severely inhibits C&C from safe havens to field operations. Right now, the Taliban are frantic to stop the elections, realizing that they represent a de jure as well as de facto end to their reign anywhere in country.
EFL:Iraqi intelligence documents, confiscated by U.S. forces and obtained by CNSNews.com, show numerous efforts by Saddam Hussein's regime to work with some of the world's most notorious terror organizations, including al Qaeda, to target Americans. They demonstrate that Saddam's government possessed mustard gas and anthrax, both considered weapons of mass destruction, in the summer of 2000, during the period in which United Nations weapons inspectors were not present in Iraq. And the papers show that Iraq trained dozens of terrorists inside its borders.
One of the Iraqi memos contains an order from Saddam for his intelligence service to support terrorist attacks against Americans in Somalia. The memo was written nine months before U.S. Army Rangers were ambushed in Mogadishu by forces loyal to a warlord with alleged ties to al Qaeda. Other memos provide a list of terrorist groups with whom Iraq had relationships and considered available for terror operations against the United States. A senior government official who is not a political appointee provided CNSNews.com with copies of the 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service documents. The originals, some of which were hand-written and others typed, are in Arabic. CNSNews.com had the papers translated into English by two individuals separately and independent of each other. There are no hand-writing samples to which the documents can be compared for forensic analysis and authentication. However, three other experts - a former weapons inspector with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), a retired CIA counter-terrorism official with vast experience dealing with Iraq, and a former advisor to then-presidential candidate Bill Clinton on Iraq - were asked to analyze the documents. All said they comport with the format, style and content of other Iraqi documents from that era known to be genuine.
Laurie Mylroie, who authored the book, "Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War against America," and advised Clinton on Iraq during the 1992 presidential campaign, told CNSNews.com that the papers represent "the most complete set of documents relating Iraq to terrorism, including Islamic terrorism" against the U.S. Mylroie has long maintained that Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism against the United States. The documents obtained by CNSNews.com , she said, include "correspondence back and forth between Saddam's office and Iraqi Mukhabarat (intelligence agency). They make sense. This is what one would think Saddam was doing at the time."
Bruce Tefft, a retired CIA official who specialized in counter-terrorism and had extensive experience dealing with Iraq, said that "based on available, unclassified and open source information, the details in these documents are accurate ..." The former UNSCOM inspector zeroed in on the signatures on the documents and "the names of some of the people who sign off on these things. "This is fairly typical of that time era. [The Iraqis] were meticulous record keepers," added the former U.N. official, who spoke with CNSNews.com on the condition of anonymity. The senior government official, who furnished the documents to CNSNews.com, said the papers answer "whether or not Iraq was a state sponsor of Islamic terrorism against the United States. It also answers whether or not Iraq had an ongoing biological warfare project continuing through the period when the UNSCOM inspections ended."
Long detailed article follows, read it at the link.
The senior government official and source of the Iraqi intelligence memos, explained that the reason the documents have not been made public before now is that the government has "thousands and thousands of documents waiting to be translated. "It is unlikely they even know this exists," the source added. The government official also explained that the motivation for leaking the documents, "is strictly national security and helping with the war on terrorism by focusing this country's attention on facts and away from political posturing. "This is too important to let it get caught up in the political process," the source told CNSNews.com.
Gee, it is October, isn't it?
To protect against the Iraqi intelligence documents being altered or misrepresented elsewhere on the Internet, CNSNews.com has decided to publish only the first of the 42 pages in Arabic, along with the English translation. Portions of some of the other memos in translated form are also being published to accompany this report. Credentialed journalists and counter-terrorism experts seeking to view the 42 pages of Arabic documents or to challenge their authenticity may make arrangements to do so at CNSNews.com headquarters in Alexandria, Va.
Just one page at the moment, I'd expect more in the coming days.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 12:42:43 PM ||
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#1
Maybe I'm just cynical, demoralized and pessimistic, but I'm really not expecting much on this or the Oil-for-palaces program stories.
The press isn't just opposed, I think they're on the OTHER SIDE. :(
#5
Most likely the MSM will claim that the docs are forged in order to steal the election for Bush. I sure there are a lot of 'experts' paid for by the DNC to make that claim.
BushHitler. Halliburton. Lies. Moron. Crushing of dissent.â¢
Ignore facts and documentation. Stay on message. We must take power again! Lie, cheat, steal, cover up - the method isn't important. We deserve it because we are right-thinking! And nuanced.
/LLL
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 14:48 Comments ||
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#9
Let's just hope that these documents didn't come out of CBS's Baghdad Office and faxed from an Abilene Kinkos.
#10
CBS set the news standard as "Fake but Accurate". These memos are probably accurate but they will never pass the "fake" test.
Posted by: john ||
10/04/2004 21:04 Comments ||
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#11
I would assume this data came from Saddams gov't computer hard drives captured some months ago.Just imagine correlating and translating that data.I like the timing of the release.
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is standing by his decision to deliver armoured troop transport tanks to Iraq despite criticism of his Greens coalition partner, a spokesman said Monday. Germany will deliver 20 Fuchs (fox) armoured personnel carriers to the Iraqi armed forces, said Schroeder's deputy spokesman Thomas Steg. "We will not take back the decision. The delivery will take place," said Steg who dismissed calls by the Greens at the weekend to bar arms sales to Iraq by underlining that such systems were crucial to building up Iraq's security forces. Schroeder strongly opposed the Iraq war and has rejected sending German troops to serve in the country.
But, business is business
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 12:06:21 PM ||
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#1
I suspect that in this situation, the troop carriers are more useful than the German troops would be ;-)
#3
I see nothing contradictory about the Germans selling arms to Iraq now. They have no problems selling weapons to anyone and where more than happy to supply Iraq not only with arms before the last war but anything else they wanted such as dual purpose weapons technology and equipment.
Posted by: robi sen ||
10/04/2004 12:53 Comments ||
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#4
So THAT'S what "fuchs" means!
Posted by: Chicago Mike ||
10/04/2004 14:07 Comments ||
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#5
Well business is business, true.
But there is a major difference between France and Germany when it comes to Iraq.
Germany doesn't want the U.S. to fail in Iraq. It wants Iraq to become a stable state, not a failed one.
#11
There was an article in Expatica about this last week. Germany is sending them to the UAE, where the Iraqi troops are training. UAE is picking up the shipping costs. A win-win situation, except for the antiwar folks...
#12
I understand from another article I read someplace this am, that Iraq is also buying military equipment from Belgium. An old saying I just made up... "If you can't find their morals, find their greed"
4 October 2004 (NCA) -- Polish Foreign Minister Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz today distanced the government from a statement by the country's defense minister that Poland would pull its troops out of Iraq by the end of next year. Cimoszewicz told reporters in Warsaw that it would be good if the situation in Iraq had reached a point where one could say the mission there is finished. But he said this is not yet the case. He said Poland must not let down its ally, the United States. His comments come after Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski in radio and press interviews earlier said that Poland will withdraw its 2,500 troops from the country by the end of 2005.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/04/2004 9:33:04 AM ||
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The poor Poles. They should realize that the Ameicans will not defend them against the Germans or Russians, either; especially under a President Kerry.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 10:10 Comments ||
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#2
We're dropping the ball with Poland. We should be funding thousands of Marshall Scholarships or the equiv for young Polish leaders-to-be to study in the US and reinforce their pro-American tendencies. Instead they're increasingly becoming Der Spiegelized. We're in danger of losing a generation.
Militant groups fighting US-led troops in Iraq plan to unite under one umbrella and rein in sectarian attacks by loyalists of suspected Al Qaeda operative Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, a Kuwaiti daily said Monday. "Very soon, these groups will combine their efforts under a single jihad (holy war) banner, governed by a Shura (consultative) Council authorized" by religious scholars, the Al-Rai Al-Aam newspaper said citing sources "very close" to Iraqi "jihadi" groups. The new grouping would command a total of "7,000 fighters spread all over Iraq," the paper said. Representatives of the Sunni militant groups are currently visiting a number of Islamic countries to consult with leading clerics about their plans, it added. The proponents of the new alliance plan to demand an end to sectarian attacks by Zarqawi's Unity and Holy War group, particularly againt Iraq's Shiite majority, the paper said. "If Zarqawi does not abandon his plans to instigate a sectarian rift, the groups will force him to do so even if that requires taking up arms against him," the paper quoted one of its sources as saying.
Yummy, red-on-red.
Another Kuwaiti daily, Al-Qabas, quoted Gulf intelligence sources as saying that Zarqawi's group had recently requested help in the form of "money and men" from unnamed Gulf groups. The request was made after US and Iraqi forces managed to strike the group and cut its supply lines, the paper said. It was the second report in recent days of moves by Iraqi militant groups to unite. On Sunday, a statement posted on an Islamist website said a "unified command of the "mujahedeen" in Iraq had been formed as an umbrella for 10 groups, but its authenticity could not be independently verified.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 9:33:39 AM ||
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The government fears al-Qaeda operatives may be hiding out in Muslim theological schools, known as Darul Ulooms. About 30 community leaders led by Moulana Ebrahim Bham of the Council of Muslim Theologians, met a government delegation led by the Minister in the Presidency Essop Pahad to discuss the worries. News of this meeting last week comes after Sunday newspaper reports that the CIA believes South Africa is one of the countries where second-tier and other al-Qaeda bosses may be hiding. Pahad was flanked at the meeting by Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula, Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister Aziz Pahad, Intelligence Minister Ronnie Kasrils and Deputy Education Minister Enver Surty.
Some South African theological schools, also called madrassas, have experienced a sudden influx of students from Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Theological schools in these countries were shut down because of convincing evidence fears that they were a breeding-ground for extremists such as the Taliban, which first grew and flourished in parts of Pakistan. Meeting sources said Pahad had raised concern on behalf of foreign ambassadors to South Africa. He apparently used a jocular manner to ask the leaders: "Why are so many Malaysians coming to South Africa to study Islam?"
Gotta send the boy off to finishing school if you want him to explode succeed in life, everyone knows that.
It is understood that organisations representing the Darul Ulooms defended their students, saying they had not broken any immigration laws.
Which didn't answer the question about why they left Malaysia to study Islam in South Africa...
Call of Islam spokesperson Adley Jacobs said the talks had provided a platform for discussion on "real issues of concern". He described a CIA report listing South Africa as a hiding-place for al-Qaeda operatives as "an exaggeration".
"No, no! Certainly not!"
"We don't believe groups who fight imperialism and invasion should do it through terrorism. We condemn terror and the killing of innocents," he said.
"Of course, we have yet to meet an innocent kaffir".
"... and the definition of terrorism's pretty fluid..."
But Muslim Youth Movement president Naeem Jeena said the meeting "was an opportunity lost for real dialogue". "We expected a proper briefing on the two South Africans arrested and held in Pakistan."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 9:30:26 AM ||
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Watta surprise! Hiding in Muslim schools...
And they have infiltrated RB, and Fred's address generator:
Darul Ulooms
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/04/2004 10:33 Comments ||
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#2
We donât believe groups who fight imperialism and invasion should do it through terrorism.
Actually, I believe that they're terrorists just for resisting.
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
10/04/2004 11:12 Comments ||
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#3
No point in fearing something that's TRUE.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/04/2004 12:41 Comments ||
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#4
"...an opportunity lost for real dialogue."
How about "Get out and stay out"?
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
10/04/2004 18:59 Comments ||
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From 'The World Today' on the BBC World Service
Aired around 00:00 a.m. GMT 10/04/04
BBC: Israel has been pressing home its attacks in northern Gaza. Several more Palestinians were killed on Sunday. The Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, speaking on Israel radio on the 5th day of the operation, said it was now time to expand, to push back Palestinian rocket launchers inside Gaza. Right into the Mediterranean, preferably.
[Sharon is heard speaking in Hebrew until the translation kicks in]:
"I think this operation is preceding well. Our forces are operating in a professional and efficient manner. This is not a brief thing. Our forces will have to remain there as long as the threat exists. I would like to add that we must operate in the Gaza Strip in such a way as to prevent the shelling of Gaza Strip communities now, as well as during the future evacuation."
Relief agency spokesman says 'I don't see that as a crime' !!!!!!
The United Nations agency that provides assistance and food aid to Palestinian refugees admits it has hired members of the terrorist group Hamas to help in its efforts. Peter Hansen, commissioner-general of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for palestinian refugees (UNRWA), told the CBC he believes it likely that Hamas members receive paycheques from his organization. "Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another," Mr. Hansen said...
Posted by: Lux ||
10/04/2004 6:52:00 AM ||
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Hamas is Hamas. Their political objectives are the same as their military objectives -- to eradicate the Jewish state. How can someone who is a member of that organization be in the pay of "nonaligned" world body?
The drumbeat of UN corruption and bias goes on, and with each beat comes further erosion of its credibility. Effin' petrowhores.
#9
UN: "well, we couldn't loan our ambulances and vehicles to someone not on staff, so we had to employ some of the snuffies political members of Hamas..."
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 10:42 Comments ||
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#11
Can the IDF EMP the ambulances and stop them from moving? That will keep the UN Hamas mechanics occupied and out of trouble for a while.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/04/2004 11:39 Comments ||
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If by EMP, you mean holing it with .50 caliber MG, then yes, the IDF can do it.
Posted by: ed ||
10/04/2004 11:55 Comments ||
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#13
Yay! This means that the UN is part of the Hamas Terror Network and we can blow it up! Thanks to this admission, we can treat the UN like Al Queda or however you spell boomers for Allen.
WHILE all eyes are on the US presidential election on November 2, the White House is also concerned with another poll planned for January. Iraq's first free and democratic elections early next year drive US military policy in the region and the war on terror as much as President George Bush's battle against Senator John Kerry next month. As the insurgency in Iraq intensifies and the conflict dominates the political agenda, US military strategists aim to have quelled all rebel controlled parts of the country before the January election.
At the US presidential election voters will choose between Bush and his unilateral militarist approach, and Kerry who blames the president for the current crisis and has vowed to seek international co-operation before the White House embarks on any further armed adventures. Faced with the most ferocious fighting since the fall of Saddam Hussein, Bush faces a tricky strategical balancing act in the run-up to the election. On the one hand, he must be seen to be asserting some control over the Iraqi and foreign al-Qaeda-backed militants attacking US forces. But he also knows he cannot risk incurring high US casualties because the sight of large numbers of American troops coming home in body bags would benefit the Kerry campaign.
But after November 2, the gloves can come off, allowing Bush the chance to launch a no-holds barred blitz on the insurgents in the two month window until the January elections. And if some reports from the intelligence community are correct, Bush is planning an all-out crackdown with some suggesting it would involve practically flattening Falluja, the base of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
10/04/2004 1:41:59 AM ||
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No way! Bush forced the airforce to use concrete-bombs, in the early stages of GW2. It did nothing to squelch local hate of America. The solution for Iraq, is not to prop one-time elections that neo-Talibanis will win. America wins and gets a pro-America Iraq, only when the remaining Iraq seculars liquidate the Islamonazis for us. Bush is too close to the clerics, to bomb Fallujah. He lets the Wahabis do his thinking for him.
#3
After retaking Fallujah, reroute the Bagdad-Jordan highway well away from Fallujah. Strangle any economic rational for the town's existence and scatter its tribes to the wind.
Posted by: ed ||
10/04/2004 6:16 Comments ||
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#4
How about reasoned discourse? You might say go screw yourself which that is O.K. but "Did you check your 2 brain cells out before posting" doesn't sound like reasonable discourse to me. Let the guy say his piece.
#15
JQC = submarine troll. These guys love to disrupt the comments. Stops the discussion, and no one here aspires to their level of discourse, "tuum quoque"
#16
John (Q. Citizen), let's break down Anon's post together. Perhaps we can discover what so annoyed Mrs. D. Ready? (Nb: I use the masculine pronoun "he" to refer to Anon, because English is a default-masculine language, where "she" is used only when the individual is known to be female.)
Bush forced the airforce to use Bush is known for listening closely to his experts, not forcing his choices upon them. Also, Bush is a flyboy from his TANG days, so if he were to force anybody, it isn't likely it would be the Air Force. And finally, it is my understanding that the concrete bombs were actually quite successful, so why does Anon complain?
squelch local hate of America Hatred can't be squelched. This is not a reasonable expectation. What is implied by the fact that Anon expects Bush to do this?
prop one-time elections Bush has repeatedly called for the establishment of real democracies in the Middle East, as the only way to end the care and feeding of Islamic fascismn that has been going on in the region for decades. What does it say about Anon that he thinks Bush is setting up Iraq for sham elections?
Iraq seculars liquidate the Islamonazis for us The War on Terror, of which the battle for the body and soul of Iraq is one small part, is the result of a civil war within Islam for the soul of the religion -- between the moderates/non-jihadis on one side, and the Islamofascist jihadis (Wahabbis, Salafis, Deobandis, etc) on the other. Thus far the jihadis appear to be winning -- mostly because the moderates refuse to try to stop them. The very small number of non-Baathist secularists in the Arab world have no part to play in this internal religious conversation,and anyway they are generally academics and philosophers -- unlikely to be properly armed to liquidate anyone.
Bush is too close to the clerics, to bomb Fallujah. Huh? Where did Anon get that idea? What have we been doing in the Sunni triangle (Fallujah, Samarra, Tikrit, etc, etc, etc) this past month at least?
lets the Wahabis do his thinking This canard comes straight out of Democratic Underground propaganda. The Saudis loath G.W.Bush because most unfilially does not unconditionally love them as his father did. To the family/tribe orientation of Saudi society, such behaviour is no different than treason.
I hope my little summary helps you to understand the position of Mrs. Davis and .com. I look forward to your reasoned response.
#17
To everyone else, I apologize for my long-windedness. John (Q. Citizen) appears ready for a long flame war, and we have more important things to do on this thread.
Sr-71, latin isn't one of my languages, and I'm feeling too lazy to search out my daughter's latin-english dictionary as I usually do. What does tuum quoque mean?
#19
"And finally, it is my understanding that the concrete bombs were actually quite successful"
It is my understanding that it was the British who came up with the idea of concrete bombs and they figured it out near the end of the first rounds of combat. Things were pretty much over before Bush could have ordered the Air Force to use them.
Concrete bombs were in use by 1999 or before during the No Fly Zone enforcement. The Iraqis had a bad habit of locating antiaircraft batteries in populated areas. The US military, being PC, instead of impressing upon the Iraqis the urgent need to flee at the first site of Iraqi arms in their neighborhood, decided to drop laser guided concrete filled bombs. Also works well on tanks.
Posted by: ed ||
10/04/2004 11:47 Comments ||
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#21
"tuum quoque" means you, too. A good example now is the Donks meme: "Bush is the flip-flopper."
#22
#16 Trying to get a response to your post. Having some difficulty cutting and pasting--something to do with running with scissors.
Good analysis. Appreciated. No evidence for linking Bush to the Clerics. Anon is probably a leftwing dingbat Democrat trying to make a statement about GW's religiousness. They hate his certainty of direction. The bombing is going on. Should have started a few months back when the Marines had to backed off.
I am strong on free speech even though it might be hogwash. Don't want to see the sight become a mutual admiration society where we all agree with each other.
I don't mind a good verbal ass kicking now and then. I give about as good as I get.
#23
Sorry about the double post. Didn't know the Arabs were so strong on filial obedience. If they hate GW, he must be doing it right. I don't have a great knowledge about Arab culture. Personnaly I think they are our enemy.
#27
JQP: Fallujah needed to be taken down. We were fiddly-friggin around with it too long.
I think you're missing the point. We cannot take a city until we have reliable Iraqi troops available to garrison the place. Fallujah failed, but it was a useful experiment because it provided an answer to the question of whether we could rely on former Iraqi army troops to garrison Iraqi cities - the answer was no. It does not make sense for Americans to garrison these cities because we don't have the manpower to do this and fight the insurgents at the same time.
In South Vietnam, it was always South Vietnamese forces that acted as garrison troops while US forces sought out the enemy. Locals are far better at distinguishing between friend and foe. Garrison troops also take a lot of casualties. South Vietnam lost 250,000 troops compared to our 58,000.
#29
Guys, thank you for your kind words, and the latin lesson. (Lex, pig latin next, ok?) Ed, I saved the site for future reference when y'all go scholarly on me ;-).
Whatcha think: have I learned something here at Rantburg U?
John: I don't kick ass. Its undignified, and tends to annoy the donkeys, who are usually lots bigger than li'l ol' 4'11 3/4" me. But, freedom of speech should not be, in my humble opinion, equated with uncritical support of those who lie.
#30
JQP: Fallujah needed to be taken down. We were fiddly-friggin around with it too long.
It's not just the practical aspects of deferring a final resolution to Fallujah until reliable garrison troops are available that is correct. The political aspects are also correct - Iraqis have been subjected to decades of anti-Amerian propaganda. Many instinctively see the US as the root of all evil in Iraq. By giving former regime elements in Fallujah a chance, during which they turned the place into a charnel house, our guys are showing Iraqis that former regime elements are the bad guys - Saddam wasn't the only problem - all of his foot soldiers were, as well. When Fallujah gets pacified this time around, Iraqis will be baying for the blood of the guerrillas, just as they bayed for the blood of Sadr's men. For a democratic climate favorable to future American interests in Iraq, we must be seen as the good guys. Overcoming decades of anti-American propaganda is difficult, but giving the insurgents the opportunity to see the error of their ways before crushing them is essential to winning Iraqi goodwill.
#31
You know if they can have election half as safe as India then I would call that success. Check on India Electilons and violence and you'll see they go hand-in-hand. We will probably see some bombs, gunfire, and deaths at the polls come January. Expect it but don't be detered by it.
#35
Are the Iraqi forces capable of holding Samarra, Fallujah etc after we've seized them? Is this the only thing holding us back from an all-out offensive right now rather than in Nov-Dec?
#39
Infrastructure damage in Iraq escalates by the second. That Vietnam era statement, "in order to destroy the village, we had to destroy it," is beginning to make sense to me, for the first time. My military contacts tell me that opposition to the US liberation is so general, that rebellion might be the correct word.
Ergo: extreme action might be necessary, to neutralize Sunni and Shiite areas where Islamofascists rule. The gloves could be off soon, although I doubt if it will be before the US election.
#40
CG4532: Infrastructure damage in Iraq escalates by the second. That Vietnam era statement, "in order to destroy the village, we had to destroy it," is beginning to make sense to me, for the first time. My military contacts tell me that opposition to the US liberation is so general, that rebellion might be the correct word.
2 or 3 US military dead are being sustained on a daily basis, compared to almost 2 dozen a day in South Vietnam, which wasn't anywhere close to rebelling against the US presence. The situation is out of control only in the minds of the media.
#41
But it was Peter Arnett who invented the statement, "In order to destroy the village, we had to destroy it," the first of his long series of lies-for-career. I thought everybody knew that!
You have no real sources if thats what you claim they say.
Resistance is still primarily amongst the Fedahenn Saddam, Baathists and foreign fighters like thZawqari's Wahabbists.
A vast majority of the Iraqis just want to be left alone to rebuild, and they welcome US forces when we can clear out the tin-pot Taliban wannabees, so they can go about the business of rebuilding thier communities without risk of being shot or their family threatened. They simpley want us to clear out the bad guys, bring in Iraqi police and security, fund reconstruction (that will bring jobs to the area), and get back out of town.
"Widespread rebellion" is bull - and so are you for spreading it.
#44
Rebellion is not the correct word - civil war is.
The baathists are out of power and want to regain it. This civil war will ultimately have to be won by the free Iraqis. There is no other way -
Doesn't that come as a surprise? The Pakistani border tribemen are the Taliban, and the Taliban supports al-Qaeda...
Ghani Gul slipped into a cemetery in his bare feet, closed his eyes and prayed before the graves of five al-Qaida fighters who had been gunned down by Pakistani police. Residents of this farm town near the Afghan border were so moved by the audacity of the men, who had tried to escape 150 policemen escorting them to jail, that they built a memorial in their honor. Today, the shrine attracts a steady flow of pilgrims who leave wads of bills in the collection box and banners calling for holy war on the cemetery walls. "Americans have the right to call these people their enemies," said Gul, a 32-year-old taxi driver, referring to al-Qaida, which carried out the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States. "But we have the right to call them martyrs." They "refuse to accept that (bin Laden and his fighters) are bad guys just because the United States says so," said retired Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul, who headed Pakistan's military intelligence service in the late 1980s.
... and who's a prime mover behind the cross-border jihad...
The snow-capped Hindu Kush mountains that dominate the tribal areas provide plenty of hiding places for fugitives. And when the heat is on, outlaws can slip back and forth across the largely unguarded, 1,400-mile-long border. "This may be the last place on Earth where al-Qaida can actually set up a base of operations," said a Western diplomat, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
No, there are other desolate places that're populated by ignorant tribesmen living under ineffective governments. Pakistan's not the world's only failed state, y'know...
There's always France.
Populated by ethnic Pashtuns who practice the deeply conservative brand of Islam favored by al-Qaida, Pakistan's semiautonomous tribal lands have long been a haven for heroin smugglers, bandits and militant Muslims.
That kinda goes with the deeply conservative brand of Islam favored by al-Qaeda, doesn't it?
Former President Burhanuddin Rabbani, the leader of one of the largest political parties in Afghanistan, declared his support on Sunday for President Hamid Karzai in the presidential election on Saturday. He said he did so in the interests of the stability and security of the country. The announcement will further strengthen Mr. Karzai, who is already the favorite among a field of 18 candidates. But it might also disappoint many voters who had hoped that a new mandate would free Mr. Karzai of the need to make deals with the powerful mujahedeen leaders who have dominated politics in Afghanistan for the past two decades.
His move will undercut Mr. Karzai's main rival, Muhammad Yunus Qanooni, who is expected to draw voters from the same support base of mujahedeen and ethnic Tajiks as Mr. Rabbani. Two influential commanders from north of Kabul were present when Mr. Rabbani made his announcement at a news conference. Mr. Rabbani's support for the incumbent was widely expected because Mr. Karzai chose as one of his vice-presidential running mates Ahmed Zia Massoud, Mr. Rabbani's son-in-law. Mr. Massoud is also the brother of the famous mujahedeen commander Ahmed Shah Massoud, who was killed on Sept. 9, 2001, by assassins suspected of being Al Qaeda operatives.
Mr. Rabbani, a religious conservative, is the leader of Jamiat-e-Islami, one of the seven mujahedeen parties that opposed the Soviet invasion. The party draws support mainly from the rural areas; the Tajiks, the second largest ethnic group in the country; and the mujahedeen, the fighters who waged war against the Soviet occupation and later against the Taliban. Mr. Massoud said the decision was based on an agreement reached with Mr. Karzai four months ago that he would take certain actions. Among the measures they agreed on, Mr. Massoud said, were promises to support Islamic values, include mujahedeen in the government, fight corruption, narcotics and terrorism, and campaign against anyone attacking Islam.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 12:39:46 AM ||
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That South Africa was "very concerned" that the country was viewed as a refuge. On whether foreign al-Qaeda operatives were recruiting locals, Kasrils said it was quite possible that those seeking refuge would try to link with "home-based communities". On whether the government was concerned about the high number of foreign students studying at local madressa, he said: "South Africa is a country where Islam has been studied for years. There are eminent theologians living in South Africa." On whether those who were hiding in South Africa posed a potential threat, he said: "We are not complacent that it can't happen here. Terrorism can't be predicted."
Kasrils did not rule out the possibility that al-Qaeda leaders "may want to strike a country's presence in South Africa which they regard as an enemy". The minister urged the media to be "very, very wary of scaremongering". Kasrils said he and other cabinet colleagues had recently met about 30 Muslim clerics and civic leaders in Pretoria. Among the issues discussed was draft legislation on terrorism, now renamed the protection of democracy bill. "We allayed their fears to quite a considerable degree. We said it was not aimed at anyone in the country, save those who wanted to overthrow constitutional order." Kasrils did not rule out the bill being amended in the National Council of Provinces, which is currently dealing with the measure.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 12:37:11 AM ||
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#1
Been there. Cape Muslims are extreme haters and would get personal satisfication from killing a kafir. Local Christians need to beat down that angry minority.
#2
Born there, done, seen that. Basically still a predominantly Christian country, but bad combination of intolerant Muslim population - Malay, black, Indian, out-of-control crime rate, fastest-growing AIDS infections worlwide, massive government corruption at all levels, a left-leaning, human rights-oriented judiciary and no death penalty.
Also the scene of the recent anti-Israel/anti-Jewish Durban hate-fest.
#3
If one was looking for a relatively modern country that was off the world radar, far from the usual harbor-the-Islamic-radical place, and with a government (possibly because of its background) that while not supportive, tends to look elsewhere, then S.A. is the place.
The United States' Central Intelligence Agency has named South Africa as one of the countries where a new tier of al-Qaeda leaders are hiding, The Sunday Independent reported. The newspaper said that a special investigation aired by the American television network CBS at the weekend revealed that a recent CIA report had identified 29 new leaders serving as a "second and third tier" in the al-Qaeda hierarchy stretching from Pakistan and Iraq to South Africa.
Lorna Daniels, spokesperson for the South African intelligence ministry, said the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) did not wish to comment at this stage. David Martin, CBS's security affairs specialist, said that according to the CIA report Osama bin Laden remained at the top of al-Qaeda, followed by Ayman al-Zawahri, but there was now a second tier of 10 leaders operating in Iraq. These included Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader to whom some South African al-Qaeda operatives are allegedly linked. According to the CIA report, a further 21 leaders could be found in countries stretching from Pakistan to South Africa.
Responding to the CBS report, South African intelligence sources said both the police and NIA were investigating alleged al-Qaeda operatives said to be functioning in South Africa - in Cape Town, Durban, the Eastern Cape and Gauteng. However, they were not certain whether these people were indeed top-ranking al-Qaeda figures as suggested in the CBS report.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
10/04/2004 12:35:44 AM ||
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#2
hmm..lots of press releases about AQ's second and third tier floating about today. Seems to be fitting the talking points meme of the day that all our work in the Middle East is for naught - because as soon as one terrorist arises, another takes his place.
Of course it was me, I'd reword the above article differently:
Al Qaeda leadership badly damaged to point that B and C teams players not even able to operate in Middle East anymore. Garden Variety thugs in S Africa now claiming to be Al Qaeda leaders. CBS is buying into it with the same investigative skills that they brought to the Wison affair..and Yellowcake and TANG docs.
Led by American evangelist Pat Robertson, thousands of Christian pilgrims gathered in the Holy Land on Sunday to express support for Israel.
Oh good grief.
The solidarity mission arrived as Israel launched an offensive in the Gaza Strip to stop rocket attacks on southern Israel.
So it's probably their fault...
More than 50 Palestinians and five Israelis have been killed in the fighting. The tourists, many from the United States, said they were not frightened by the violence but only hoped to boost Israeli morale during their visit. In two Jerusalem appearances, Robertson praised Israel as part of God's plan and criticized Arab countries, saying their hopes to include Israeli-controlled land in a Palestinian state are part of ``Satan's plan.'' Robertson also offered a hint of rebuke for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for his plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, saying only God could decide on transfers of biblical land.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/04/2004 12:16:49 AM ||
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#1
I see that as Satan's plan to prevent the return of Jesus Christ the Lord,'' said Robertson, a Christian broadcaster.
Is anyone else's eschatology meter beginning to wiggle?
He said he "sends notice" to Osama bin Laden, Arafat and Palestinian militant groups that "you will not frustrate God's plan" to have Jews rule the Holy Land until the Second Coming of Jesus. "God says, 'I'm going to judge those who carve up the West Bank and Gaza Strip,' " Robertson said. 'It's my land and keep your hands off it.' "
Eschatology meter pegged, bullshit meter red lined too.
Evangelical Christians are strong supporters of Israel, believing that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land is foretold in the Scriptures and heralds the return of the messiah. While the pilgrims are welcomed in Israel, the belief of some in a final, apocalyptic battle between good and evil in which Jesus returns and Jews either accept him or perish - causes discomfort among Jews.
Few better examples exist of mixed motivations in today's religious circles. Israel needs to carefully examine the agendas of many Christian organizations that are proclaiming their support for Jewish causes. Biblical visions of the "end times," as predicted in Revelations, have driven many Christians to take an otherwise unhealthy interest in Jewish affairs.
Age old blood libels about the Jews having crucified Christ are being pushed aside in a frenzy of expectations over the second coming of Jesus. Most sane people should have profound concerns over Christian fundamentalism's craving for this world's destruction via Armageddon.
Some years back, even the Saudis expressed concern that the White House was being steered by this eschatological notion in their formulation of Middle East policy.
Robertson's motives go well beyond dubious and merit the utmost scrutiny by those in Israel. Little, if any, of his concern is for the welfare of Israel proper. His ultimate intentions serve only one end, and the condemnation or compelled conversion of every Jew is all that he envisions for them.
Robertson is a sterling example of American religiosity run amok. That he has received a half million of our tax dollars to spew this sort of idiotic claptrap is more than a little disturbing.
#2
Zenster: Robertson's motives go well beyond dubious and merit the utmost scrutiny by those in Israel. Little, if any, of his concern is for the welfare of Israel proper. His ultimate intentions serve only one end, and the condemnation or compelled conversion of every Jew is all that he envisions for them.
Robertson is a sterling example of American religiosity run amok. That he has received a half million of our tax dollars to spew this sort of idiotic claptrap is more than a little disturbing.
Actually, this is a sign of Zenster's hatred for Christians run amuck. Every religion has its own apocalyptic vision. Christianity just happens to have the Revelations. If you have a problem with Christianity, perhaps you should think of moving to a country that is largely free of it, namely Saudi Arabia.
#3
I don't trust Robertson any farther than I can toss him. This comes from working in "Christian Broadcasting" for a few years. As a smart man said follow the money and as they all usually say "send money." That said Israel can choose it's friends it's up to them. I know Robertson and his ilk aren't who I would choose as friends. My personal feeling is we are going to be waiting quite a long time for Jesus to come back. Yes it does piss off a few of my friends.
#4
Actually, this is a sign of Zenster's hatred for Christians run amuck.
Quite wrong, Zhang Fei. I have had Christian business partners and currently have several Christian friends. I have attended church with my Christian friends many times. Their right to worship as they see fit is something I would defend to the death.
I just happen to have a problem with fundamentalism in all of its various forms, be it Islamic or Christian. Hide bound interpretation of religious doctrine has led to more bloodshed than almost any other type of dispute in human history. One need only examine Islamist terrorism for a vivid example of what has been going on for untold hundreds, if not thousands, of years.
Twisted freaks like Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Jesse Jackson, Jerry Fallwell, Robert Tilton, Al Sharpton, Oral Roberts, Reverend Ike, Fred Phelps and an almost endless parade of other vicious, sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons have simply exhausted my tolerance for fundamentalist Christianity.
In more recent times, Ayatollah Khomenei, mullah Omar, Sheik Qaradawi, Moqtada al Sadr, Baker Bashir and all of their ilk have zeroed out my toleration of fundamentalist Islam as well.
The sooner that people begin to think for themselves without relying upon these craven maggots for guidance in their daily lives, the sooner this world will be a better place.
#5
Well, Zenster, the diff between christian fundies and jihadis is that the first are snake oil salesman, while the second are homicidal maniacs.
You sound like you equivocate. Despite that X-tian fundies are "sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons" and perhaps somewhat "vicious", they are no match to jihadis.
#6
Speaking as a fully paid up atheist, people can believe any claptrap they wish - apocalyptic or otherwise, and the Greens have got some doozies, as long as they don't, by their actions, interfer with my rights and enjoyments.
Suggesting the Bush WH is driven/influenced by some kind of 'end of days' apocalyptic vision is silly. Its much closer to 19th century liberal optimism (that we can and will progressively improve the world through 'progress')
BTW, doesn't the bible say something about judging people by their actions.
#7
This Jew greatly appreciates such Christian support for Israel. They are doing Hashem's work in their own special way. They continued to visit Israel in Holy Land tours when American Jews were too chickenshit. During the era of suicide bombers.
#8
Well, Zenster, the diff between christian fundies and jihadis is that the first are snake oil salesman, while the second are homicidal maniacs.
You sound like you equivocate. Despite that X-tian fundies are "sanctimonious, hypocritical, swindling, Bible thumping morons" and perhaps somewhat "vicious", they are no match to jihadis.
No argument, Memisis. Jihadis are in a class of murderous psychotics all by themselves. Need I mention just how recently the Christian church was weaned off of quite similar behavior? I just happen to find the religious bigotry of slimeballs like Robertson disturbingly similar to the theocratic bull hockey being spewed by the Islamists.
I'm rather confident that if Christ returned to this earth, he would be absolutely disgusted at what has been done in his name. A very few prominent Christian leaders seem to follow their own saviour's golden rule. That sort of moral hypocrisy is just as poisonous as jihadism, one is merely faster acting than the other.
#9
Well I am a Born Agin Christian and I certainly can not stand Fawell and Co.
When my Aunt was on her death bed her son ask her Pastor to go to the hospital to give her comfort(she had given this church tens of thousands of $ over the years).The a-hole refused saying he had to prepare the church for his son's wedding.Then this butthead had the gall to demand the title to my Aunt's home because"That's what she wanted"course my cousin told him to go F#$k a rolling doughnut.Robertson and such are nothing but money grubbing scroungers.
#10
If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 9:28 Comments ||
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#11
If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.
How about your christian neighbors, friends, family, and co-workers who go about each and every day doing good works? You don't have to be proselytizing at the top of your lungs to be a role model for your religion. I dispute the smears in the comments above for taking bad apples and portraying the whole tree as rotten.
You'll find many people actively work to better their religions: as a Roman Catholic I despise the pedophile priests and the church's cover-ups. Does that make me a moral hypocrite, Zen? Or just someone who tries to work from the inside to improve the church?
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 10:01 Comments ||
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#12
My point, Frank is that those people aren't the leadership of the mainstream denominations. That leadership is firmly in the hands of left wing wackos. That isn't good.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 10:04 Comments ||
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#13
I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized religion. Ya all believe what you will.
#14
Mrs D - agreed. Reform has to come from the grass roots - and it won't be easy
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 10:17 Comments ||
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#15
JQC: I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized religion. Ya all believe what you will.
I don't have too much use for any organized or disorganized atheist nutjobs either, including the Democratic Party and moveon.org. Ya all believe what you will.
#16
MD: If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.
Christians can see if their pastors are moneygrubbers and hypocrites, just as Jews can see when their rabbis are swindlers and pedophiles. It's just that Jewish scandals aren't as hyped up, given that that it's more politically correct to bash Christians.
Pat Robertson is not to be compared to the Taliban. When he said the 9/11 was God's punishment for the unfaithful, he was carrying on in a long tradition of flagellating the unfaithful by the biblical prophets. It's not politically correct in today's environment, but there it is. Muslims have a completely different point of view. Have you ever heard them say that America's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was Allah's punishment for the unfaithful? No. What Robertson said was an expression of doubt in the biblical tradition (re Sodom and Gomorrah - i.e. man is inherently flawed and must do better), whereas what the Mullahs say is an expression of certainty, that Muslims must reach out and strike the infidel wherever he is. One is inward-looking, whereas the other wants to reach out and throttle the non-Muslim.
#17
Well said Zenster, Mrs. Davis, and Raptor. I don't trust those Televangelists as far as I can throw my thumb. It's all about power and money with them. Oh, and being in the limelight. Standing in front of a TV camera and proclaiming "See what a good, God-fearing person I am. And by the way, send me your money." The worst thing I ever heard come out of a "preacher"s" mouth was about 20 years ago when I heard one say on TV, "Thank God for AIDS. It's God's way of gettin" rid of all the homosexials" What aslime-ball.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
10/04/2004 10:37 Comments ||
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#18
*yawns* I'm surprised that so many people can be so skeptical of the MSM, yet buy all the bullshit and stereotypes they say about the Christian Right or other groups vital to the Republican majority. Zenster's indulging in the same hyperbolic bullshit Gore and Dowd emit, only in a different area. Call me back when Baptists bearing bomb belts start blowing up mosques or Catholic cathedrals. Until then, get a GRIP.
Jeeze, it's bad enough some individuals here want to vaporize all Muslims because of the acts of the few, and now some are idiot enough to think the problem is "Religion" in general instead of a specific religion endorsing and supporting specific acts in the here-and-now?
The world is in such a big stinking mess that I have every right in the world to verbally petition the Big Boss of All to hurry the f**k up, make the scene, and shut this hellhole down. Nothing in The Book I Believe orders me to go one step beyond that.
#19
DB: Thank God for AIDS. It's God's way of gettin" rid of all the homosexials.
I have heard preachers say that AIDS is God's punishment for deviant behavior. I have never heard someone say "Thank God for AIDS", any more than I have heard someone say "Thank God for 9/11", for getting the faithless more involved with religion. It seems to me that DB is making up quotes to suit his anti-Christian views.
#20
It's just that Jewish scandals aren't as hyped up, given that that it's more politically correct to bash Christians.
You obviously dont read jewish papers, which have harp on every scandal in the rabbinate and elsewhere. I think its more that there arent any rabbis who are as important to the general public as certain fundamentalist TV preachers, and Catholic Bishops.
#21
LH: You obviously dont read jewish papers, which have harp on every scandal in the rabbinate and elsewhere.
They're not hyped up in the mass media, because stomping on rabbis isn't politically correct. Christian papers also cover internal scandals, but they are also subjected to the mass media's klieg lights, because Christians are, of course, the embodiment of all that is wrong with America.
#22
Zhang Fei, I did not make this quote up. I was at Fort Benning, Georgia and a local televangelist said those very words.I am most definately not anti-christian, just anti-fool. My Father is an ordained Baptist Minister and there are many very fine people who are very devout in their faith but not fools. This man who professed to be a follower of Jesus was thanking God for a terrible disease that NOBODY deserves to suffer from. Jesus healed the lepers, he didn't say "Thank God for leprosey. It will rid the world of sinners". He was a very compassionate man well worth emulating.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
10/04/2004 13:19 Comments ||
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#23
I dispute the smears in the comments above for taking bad apples and portraying the whole tree as rotten.
You'll find many people actively work to better their religions: as a Roman Catholic I despise the pedophile priests and the church's cover-ups. Does that make me a moral hypocrite, Zen? Or just someone who tries to work from the inside to improve the church?
Frank, where have I said that all of Christianity is corrupt? If I felt it to be corrupt, why on earth would I have Christian friends or go to their churches with them? Just as importantly, why should your disgust at the cover-ups over child-raping priests render you a hypocrite? I would think that your open confrontation of and direct opposition to such deviance would place you firmly on the side of good.
I very carefully directed my scorn at fundamentalists of every stripe, Christian or Islamic. The televangelists in particular get my wrath because of how consistently they have been shown to be complete and utter hypocrites. Reread Raptor's tale. It does not involve any televangelists, yet I cannot count the number of times I have heard of such matters.
I can only be glad that I have run across several clear-minded Christians who embodied their faith and served as worthy ambassadors to their Christ. What I find particulary disturbing is how a majority of Christians do not protest more loudly over the prominence of such feckless, greedy shysters as Robertson et al.
If the Christians can't come up with something better than Robertson or the Presbyterians, maybe the Islamofascists will win.
As Mrs. Davis so capably points out, if Christians cannot come up with more worthy representatives of their faith than a moron like Pat Robertson, they may well end up being swept aside by a more determined, if less valid, religion. Robertson's brand of belief is equally blind as Islamism's, both are poisonous to reason.
Zenster's indulging in the same hyperbolic bullshit Gore and Dowd emit, only in a different area. Call me back when Baptists bearing bomb belts start blowing up mosques or Catholic cathedrals.
Ptah, I guess you've never heard of "The Troubles," then. Irish Christians have been setting off car bombs and murdering little children for quite some time now. Nowhere have I attempted to directly equate the destructive capacity of Islamism with Christian fundamentalism. What I do see equivalency in is the damaging aspect of fundamentalism in all of its various guises.
Jesus healed the lepers, he didn't say "Thank God for leprosey. It will rid the world of sinners". He was a very compassionate man well worth emulating.
Exceptionally well said, Deacon Blues. Without a doubt, Jesus did exist. Whether he is the son of God is another matter entirely. This does not discredit the worth of his teachings. I suggest that all involved watch the Frontline documentary "From Jesus to Christ" (The first Christians). It is one of the only factually based and carefully researched programs dealing with Christ's religious transformation that I have ever seen. It debunks much of the second-hand misinformation related to Christ's origins while showing the ultimate value of much of his teachings. Make no mistake, Zhang Fei, Robertson specifically attempted to blame homosexual Americans for the 9-11 atrocity.
Such defocusing and misdirection of blame for that tragedy is the hallmark of a fraud. There is not enough room to dispute what I consider to be the deeply flawed notion of original sin, so we will have to leave that for another day. But it still remains, as Mahatma Gandhi said, that;
If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.
The Jews in Israel would be well advised to closely examine the motivations of zealots like Robertson before rushing to embrace any alliance with him. Robertson's snake oil is just another watered down formula of the same poison currently flooding the Middle East.
#24
Zenster: The Jews in Israel would be well advised to closely examine the motivations of zealots like Robertson before rushing to embrace any alliance with him. Robertson's snake oil is just another watered down formula of the same poison currently flooding the Middle East.
No offense, but that is a load of horsedung. For most of this country's existence, it has been populated by Christian fundamentalists. That percentage is decreasing every day because the lure of a guilt-free secular existence. We have never seen anything like the Taliban where the government did unspeakable things to gays and people convicted of adultery or fornication. At the peak of fundamentalist influence we saw none of this stuff. Zenster is saying that Pat Robertson, just another in a long line of fire-and-brimstone preachers, is going to bring back the Holocaust? I think Zenster needs to cool it on the hyperbole.
#26
Here in San Francisco I've heard a great deal of bigotry directed against Evangelical Christians by otherwise good people, friends who are unaware that they themselves are the bigots that they imagine evangelicals to be. None of these folks would dream of insulting a Jew or a Muslim, but they will cheerfully ascribe the most base motivations to, say, a Pentecostal from Idaho. They are, of course, blissfully unaware of the hypocrisy which flowers from their own ignorance.
Urban Californians have drifted so far from the rest of the American family that I am not certain they deserve to be thought of as Americans anymore; but that's a topic for another time. I was raised in a Southern Baptist family. I have an uncle, an aunt, and a grandmother who are extremely religious, the remainder somewhat less so. These people are accomplished professionals: dentists, nurses, insurance salesmen, school teachers. They're reasonably affluent, good citizens who happen to believe strongly (sometimes literally) in biblical teachings. Believe me, you wouldn't mind having any of them as neighbors. They also unquestioningly support Israel for a variety of complex political, social, and religious reasons.... you know, like American Jews used to do back before they decided to self-destruct. And you can also take it from me that my Uncle Neil and Aunt Betty are far more eagerly awaiting their son's graduation from the Methodist seminary in Alabama than they are the rapture. As of yet no one has actually expressed a burning desire for the End Times at a family gathering. More hot sauce? Yes, but Armageddon no.
Robertson's a fairly harmless, almost sad figure; the last of the big time American televangelists out there doing his thing. Frankly, it looks to me like Israel can use all of the friends it can get in the world.
#28
Zenster: As Mrs. Davis so capably points out, if Christians cannot come up with more worthy representatives of their faith than a moron like Pat Robertson, they may well end up being swept aside by a more determined, if less valid, religion. Robertson's brand of belief is equally blind as Islamism's, both are poisonous to reason.
Actually, fundamentalism is the only way Christianity will survive. Without rock-solid core basic beliefs, going to church is no more than participation in a social club. There are much better ways to socialize than going to church. People who require something stronger to keep them going will turn away from the church and move towards Islam. This is why, as an atheist, I am a strong supporter of fundamentalist Christianity and the Catholic church. If the basic tenets of Christianity become watered-down, the attraction of Islam will become irresistible. People need religions involving strong medicine. All things considered, I would prefer that they get it from Christianity than from Islam.
#29
They're not hyped up in the mass media, because stomping on rabbis isn't politically correct. Christian papers also cover internal scandals, but they are also subjected to the mass media's klieg lights, because Christians are, of course, the embodiment of all that is wrong with America.
Ever see how the MSM treats Orthodox rabbis in Israel? Not kindly. The failings of Rabbis in the states doesnt get covered cause no one cares about them. They dont have the money, clout, etc. Name me one rabbi with a regular popular TV show, let alone a network. Hell, name me one American rabbi period off the top of your head (dont cheat and google it). Christians are like, the majority here. There are plenty of influential jews, and they get lambasted by the MSM all the time (dare I mention Richard Perle? Paul Wolfowitz?) but they dont include rabbis, cause rabbis dont matter, other than to (some) Jews.
#30
That percentage is decreasing every day because the lure of a guilt-free secular existence. We have never seen anything like the Taliban where the government did unspeakable things to gays and people convicted of adultery or fornication. At the peak of fundamentalist influence we saw none of this stuff. Zenster is saying that Pat Robertson, just another in a long line of fire-and-brimstone preachers, is going to bring back the Holocaust? I think Zenster needs to cool it on the hyperbole.
Zhang Fei, as a self-admitted athiest, you talk about "the lure of a guilt-free secular existence." You imply that properly practiced Christianity is explicitly laden with guilt. I think you do a tremendous disservice to Christians everywhere by mischaracterizing the uplifting spiritual core of their faith.
America has had its own witch trials, and that is sufficiently close to Taleban style persecution to merit examination. You also continue to claim that I directly equate Islamism with Christian fundamentalism in its current form. Nowhere do I do this.
I continue to aver that Robertson's brand of snake oil is just as poisonous over the long run as anything being pedaled by the mullahs. Christianity already had its Holocaust well before Germany reinvented the horrid notion. Pogroms were disgustingly common throughout Europe's history. While it is to Christianity's credit that their church has largely dispensed with such monstrousness, please note how only recently did the Catholic Church finally renouce its putrid and ancient blood libel against the Jewish people.
Blind adherence to doctrine will always taint reason. That is one of my major points in all of this. As an atheist you state that, "People need religions involving strong medicine." I find this to be a deeply cynical and derrogative underestimation of the human spirit and entirely unbecoming to someone of your obvious intelligence. Your dismissal of religion's uplifting qualities in favor of its less tonic and astringent properties is an insult to those who carry forward the enlightened teachings of Christ and all other benign spiritual masters.
PS: Liberalhawk, although a terrible example, Meher Kahane. (And no, I did not have to Google.)
#31
I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions.
The main social benefits of American religiosity are twofold: a deep resistance to pacifism and a residual belief in the virtue of bearing and raising children. Both of which are of extraordinary importance to our eventual success in the war with jihadists and their postmodern leftish camp followers in the west.
#32
zen, a pretty poor example, seeing as hes been dead, for what, 20 years? And had moved to Israel before that (though he was assasinated on US soil). And never got particularly kind treatment from the mainstream media.
Look. I follow this stuff. Im well aware of the Reform Rabbi in new jersey who was charged with arranging for the murder of his wife, and Im aware of a youth director of the Modern Orthodox movement who was fired for sexual harassment of teens. IIRC both DID get into the MSM. But not like the Swaggart (or was it Baker?) scnadal, or the Catholic sex scandals. Why? Well an osbscure congregational rabbi in New Jersey simply isnt as important as a televangelist who reaches out to millions. And the Orthodox Union, sadly, is not of interest to as many people as the Roman Catholic church. You could probably fit all the folks who ever went through an OU youth program into one RC cathedral.
Now if Meir Kahane had harrassed some kiddies THAT would have been big news. However no one was ever able to tar him with anything other than hatred ,racism and cryptofascism.
#33
Zenster: America has had its own witch trials, and that is sufficiently close to Taleban style persecution to merit examination. You also continue to claim that I directly equate Islamism with Christian fundamentalism in its current form. Nowhere do I do this.
You have to reach back into the 17th century to get an example of that kind of activity among American Christian fundamentalists. There is no comparison with the Taliban. One - that was small-scale and limited to Salem. Two - fundamentalist Christians in America have been around for 300 years, without reverting to that kind of thing (which actually occurred even as religious wars were raging in Europe). Christians in America simply agree to disagree, relegating theological disputes to the realm of the divine, instead of fighting it out here on earth. The disagreements don't go away, but they basically agree to live and let live. For Protestants, the Pope is still the purple whore of Rome, but the day-to-day reality is that if Catholics want to accept him as the final arbiter of church doctrine, that is their worldly prerogative. Catholics see Protestantism as a heresy, but have no issues with Protestants practising their faith. This tolerance while in rabid disagreement is the essential nature of American Christian fundamentalism.
#34
Zenster: I continue to aver that Robertson's brand of snake oil is just as poisonous over the long run as anything being pedaled by the mullahs. Christianity already had its Holocaust well before Germany reinvented the horrid notion. Pogroms were disgustingly common throughout Europe's history. While it is to Christianity's credit that their church has largely dispensed with such monstrousness, please note how only recently did the Catholic Church finally renouce its putrid and ancient blood libel against the Jewish people.
Even the blood libel is small potatoes. My view is that the problem doesn't have to do with basic beliefs. People have all kinds of beliefs about other ethnic groups and religions. The problem is when people think that it is acceptable to use those beliefs as the basis for slaughtering people of a certain creed or ethnicity. Racism and religious prejudice have been phenomena in America for hundreds of years. But it took Germans to go out and slaughter Jews and Poles by the millions.
Arabs aren't the only people with prejudices against Jews. My converstions with Europeans have revealed strong prejudices against Jews, as well. But the difference is that the Europeans don't feel that it is acceptable to kill people based upon these views, whereas many Arabs do.
#35
I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions.
lex, I am equating fundamentalism with "blind adherence to doctrine," not the buffet table spiritualism that is currently en vougue. Blind faith will always attempt to trump reason by dint of its own self-proclaimed supremacy. This is one of the poisonous aspects I am attempting to emphasize.
This tolerance while in rabid disagreement is the essential nature of American Christian fundamentalism.
Well said, Zhang Fei, and it is what puts America's constitutional freedom of religion head and shoulders above any of it's overseas counterparts. I view the separation of church and state as one of the keystones to America's greatness. Any erosion of that division is a direct threat to our nation's ascendancy. It is precisely this absence of any state sanctioned religion (to whatever extent) that has prevented the bloodshed so common to other theocratic regimes.
Even the blood libel is small potatoes.
I'm obliged to wonder if Liberalhawk would agree with you on that.
But the difference is that the Europeans don't feel that it is acceptable to kill people based upon these views, whereas many Arabs do.
Which is why I advocate the immediate deposing or decapitation of all theocratic governments, especially the Islamic ones. Nowhere do you hear me espouse similar views about Christian fundamentalists or their kin.
#36
why I advocate the immediate deposing or decapitation of all theocratic governments, especially the Islamic ones. Nowhere do you hear me espouse similar views about Christian fundamentalists or their kin. Any erosion of that division is a direct threat to our nation's ascendancy.
I wouldn't characterize as "blind adherence to doctrine" American Christianity's current mishmash of self-help therapy, vague spiritualism and cafeteria selection of moral prescriptions. lex, I am equating fundamentalism with "blind adherence to doctrine,"
Posted by: Singh Ho ||
10/04/2004 19:51 Comments ||
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German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said Sunday that his country would expand the scope of assistance to Afghanistan. After his meeting here with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Fischer said that the re-emergence of terrorist activities in Afghanistan must be fought with all efforts. Germany will help the Afghan government in training police, securing borders and cracking down on drug smugglers, Fischer said. More than 2,000 German soldiers are deployed in Kabul and two other Afghan cities, making up for a third of the international peace-keeping force in the country. Karzai expressed his appreciation for the peace-keeping effortsof German soldiers and financial support from the German government. The Afghan president came here to receive the "Quadriga Prize,"which is given by the German Workplace Society for outstanding personnel worldwide.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/04/2004 12:12:30 AM ||
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#1
And he didn't even wait for Kerry to be elected first. I'd say Kerry's position that he'd better engage important allies in WoT endeavors is effectively screwed.
#2
I dunno about that. Reality has never stopped Democrats from making outrageous claims before, and I doubt this'll be any exception: Kerry will go right on pushing his "fraudulent coalition" bullshit, and unthinking Democrats will go right on believing it.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
10/04/2004 7:33 Comments ||
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#3
The Germans have been steadfast in supporting us in Afghanistan. It helps to separate them from the French when we talk about that part of the world.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/04/2004 10:50 Comments ||
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#4
The Germans have been steadfast in supporting us in Afghanistan. It helps to separate them from the French when we talk about that part of the world.
They don't have a history of contracts, contacts and dealings with the Taliban like the French did. Both had dealings in Iraq (along with the Russians)big time. Anyplace France has business and political interests they will always be opposed to US meddling except in Haiti where they are very happy to have someone else pick up the tab there.
#5
It was quite an interesting discussion in the Bundestag. Everybody agrees that Afghanistan will get tougher and there will be German casualties in the next year.
Re Iraq: German business in Iraq was certainly not important enough to risk a fallout with the U.S. German companies would have gained a lot more if Germany had sent troops.
The German business world didn't like Schroeder's stance at all.
The main threats to IDF troops operating in northern Gaza are Palestinian sniper and antitank rocket fire, an IDF officer told The Jerusalem Post, as Operation Days of Repentance entered its fifth day on Sunday. It's difficult decision: Repent or swallow a 120mm shell Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon said the majority of the casualties were terrorists; Palestinians report that over 70 Palestinians have been killed and 250 wounded since the operation began. Ya'alon deemed the offensive, which aims to eliminate Kassam rocket and other attacks on Israel, a success, noting it could continue for a number of weeks. 250 wounded: Hey, Regis can I get a life line.
However, the IDF operation is generating harsh criticism from abroad. How can I hate the Joos and remain politically correct? Hmmm
In a statement, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan called on Israel to halt its military operations in the Gaza Strip, "which have led to the deaths of scores of Palestinians, among them many civilians, including children." Annan also urged the Palestinian Authority "to take action to halt the firing of rockets against Israeli targets." Oh! snap. A fair and balanced Kofi Anus Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Poison Reverse ||
10/04/2004 12:00:37 AM ||
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#1
Heavy bulldozers have cleared foliage and demolished a number of houses in the camp...
Part of the IDF St. Pancake battalion.....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/04/2004 1:00 Comments ||
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#2
..to destroy and kill..destroy and kill..total wipe out
...
I say demolish and destroy everything in Gaza for 100 miles.
You are one bloodthirty motherf*cker. You sound like the Paleos. You trying to compete with them?
#3
Poison Reverse, my dear, please stop and think before you answer this. I don't know if you realize, but with your calls for demolition and destruction, and "drive them into the sea", you are echoing literally the genocidal calls of the Arabs and Palestinians since the establishment of Israel in 1948.
Speaking to you as a Jew and the child of an Israeli (Daddy: Haganah 1948; Mama: Germany, Nazi era), if you truly believe what you are saying, we cannot be friends. If you are employing mere rhetorical emphasis, stop it! It isn't funny when there are real people who believe such shit.
Oh, and please let me know which is the case. I prefer to be clear on such things.
Are you forgetting that the Paleo's want to drive Israel into the sea? You are Jewish, it is not my fault you are too blind to see a slowly churning extermination coming. The Christians put on the blinders during the Hitler era until they found too late that, now Hitler is coming after the Christians. End result, over 6 million Christians were killed. So get off my ass. You are Jewish, read the Torah, how many times did God get mad at the Israeli kings for not "completely" destroying the enemy that want to destroy the Jews. BTW, did you know that there is no such thing as the Palestinean people. They are remenants of Egyptians, Syrians, Jordaninans people that came to destroy Israel in the previous wars. Bottomline, if they don't want to driven into the sea, then they need to go back to the country of their origin or stop wanting to push Israel into the sea. Jews like you, Shimon Peres, Ehud Barak, and Yitzhak Rabin fail(ed)to see the "extermination" at your doorstep.
Dave D.
Nobody is talking about "exterminating and entire people" The Plaeo's are teaching their little children that Jews are monkeys and pigs. If the Mexicans were to come over here and set off some suicide bombs, there would be some serious retaliation going on.
badanov,
If destroying your enemy before they destroy you is considered "competing" then, call me a competitor.
#7
Back up, Poison Reverse, and re-read my post. I wrote, "your calls for ..."drive them into the sea"...echo[ing] literally the genocidal calls of the Arabs and Palestinians..." I have studied the Tanach (Torah+Prophets+Writings = "Old Testament")-- as well as MEMRI translations of Palestinian textbooks -- and God was generally more concerned with moral backsliding than completely destroying an enemy -- that had been pretty much reserved for the initial conquest of Canaan.
And anyway, I live now, not then. To the best of my knowledge the last scion of the House of David died in the middle of the first millenium A.D. in Babylon. Judaism has followed its own king- and priest-free curve of development, of which you are clearly unaware. But moral development has been a large part of it.
Historically, my dear man, most of those who call themselves Palestinians moved into the region following the migration of Jews from Europe starting in the mid 1900's... to take advantage of increasing economic opportunity created by Jewish entrepreneurial activity across the range of endeavor from modern agriculture to establishment of research and manufacturing. This is why they define 'Palestinian' as having been living in the land at least four years before the establishment of Israel in 1948.
Israel does not need to exterminate anyone in order to survive. The separation fence is accomplishing a great deal to reduce the effectiveness of terror efforts on the local level, and the changing situation in the region due to the War on Terror has already significantly reduced anything beyond [very loud]verbal support from the rest of the world. Israel is in no true danger of being eradicated, eliminated, exterminated, or pushed into the sea. While support for Israel is generally welcome, as DennisW wrote on another thread, your call for genocide is unwelcome to a people who survived their own Holocaust (if you want to know my personal history, you'll find part of it in the library of the Holocaust Museum in D.C.). If you feel so keenly that Israel needs help, go volunteer to join the Israeli army. That would do more than your ugly chickenhawk words.
You want me "off your ass"? Then stop talking like one.
You know good and well that Gaza is full of Hamas and Hizbullah terrorists. You sound like a sympathizer.
I am not going to waste RB's bandwidth, arguing with your LEFT WING statements. You are highly educated, so you should know how the Jewish-friendly Romans in 70 A.D killed 500K to 1 million Jews and destroyed the Temple. You are already familiar with the Holocaust so I don't need to discuss how many Jews died by the hands of the Jewish-friendly Germans.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 14:48 Comments ||
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#11
LOL...
Posted by: Dave D. ||
10/04/2004 14:54 Comments ||
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#12
PR - that's pretty harsh....when you hear me saying that, it may be time to rethink....
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 15:09 Comments ||
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#13
Comment: Golly, PR, Bible quotes! Ooooh!
You are right, though, I am pretty highly educated. Long-standing family tradition. Actually, I'm the only one of my immediate relatives not employed in academia, 'cause I'm too lazy to get any actual degrees. I throw a darn good multilingual dinner party though, wherever it is that my husband's job takes the family.
I do know that the world Jewish population today is about the same as it was just before the Romans got busy in 70 A.D., and the Christians carried on the tradition, followed later by the Muslims. This despite higher than normal child survival rates. But it is awf'ly kind of you to oh so condescendingly inform me about my own history.
You disagree with my history of the 'Palestinians', do you? Strangely enough, your link supports all my points. Hmmm. And, gosh, you think that therefore I am a LEFT WING Hamas/Hizbollah supporter? Seriously, I think you could use a little formal edumacation yourself. Or at least go back to lurking until you've learned enough to sound less the ignoramous.
#14
"Seriously, I think you could use a little formal edumacation yourself."
I think what he actually needs is lithium. LOTS of it.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
10/04/2004 15:16 Comments ||
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#15
Whoops! That first line should have started Golly, PR, Bible quotes! Ooooh! I'm not sure where "Comment" came from.
Badanov, Mrs. Davis, Dave D., Frank G., thanks for your kind support. But please, it isn't nice to laugh at others. We seek merely to educate and together find the truth hiding out there in the big bad world, do we not?
Strangely enough, your link supports all my points
The link does NOT support your points.
Small nuggets from the link:
"If the massive increase was not due to natural births, then were did all these Arabs come from?
All the evidence points to the neighboring Arab states of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan."
"Not only pre-state Arabs lied about being indigenous. Even today, many prominent so-called Palestinians, it turns out, are foreign born. Edward Said, an Ivy League Professor of Literature and a major Palestinian propagandist, long claimed to have been raised in Jerusalem. However, in an article in the September 1999 issue of Commentary Magazine Justus Reid Weiner revealed that Said actually grew up in Cairo, Egypt, a fact which Said himself was later forced to admit. But why bother with Said? PLO chief Yasir Arafat himself, self declared "leader of the Palestinian people", has always claimed to have been born and raised in "Palestine". In fact, according to his official biographer Richard Hart, as well as the BBC, Arafat was born in Cairo on August 24, 1929 and that's where he grew up."
"The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history."
"If the Palestinians are indeed a myth, then the real question becomes "Why?" Why invent a fictitious people? The answer is that the myth of the Palestinian People serves as the justification for Arab occupation of the Land of Israel. While the Arabs already possess 21 sovereign countries of their own (more than any other single people on earth) and control a land mass 800 times the size of the Land of Israel, this is apparently not enough for them. They therefore feel the need to rob the Jews of their one and only country, one of the smallest on the planet. Unfortunately, many people ignorant of the history of the region, including much of the world media, are only too willing to help."
Everyone else, Before handing out rhetoric and prescriptions, read the link
#17
Its clear to me that large numbers of arabs migrated to Palestine in the 19thc. This does NOT contradict the fact that many Arabs were there pre-1900. They have some group rights, even if those rights should (IMHO) be subordinate to Israel's rights to security.
#18
My post #7: Historically, my dear man, most of those who call themselves Palestinians moved into the region following the migration of Jews from Europe starting in the mid 1900's... to take advantage of increasing economic opportunity created by Jewish entrepreneurial activity across the range of endeavor from modern agriculture to establishment of research and manufacturing. This is why they define 'Palestinian' as having been living in the land at least four years before the establishment of Israel in 1948.
So, let's see:
moved into the region...starting mid-1900's
take advantage of increasing economic opportunity
define 'Palestinian' as having been living in the land at least four years
Yup, I'd say that your link and my post are kinda sorta,like y'know,in total agreement. In other words, I fail to see the contradiction.
#19
We seek merely to educate and together find the truth hiding out there in the big bad world, do we not?
Agreed, that that is what we seek to do, and have a little fun. Do you believe that is PR's intention also? I am hesitant to divine the intentions of others, my own having been misinterpreted so often in the past. But his behavior, in this and other threads leads me to doubt whether we share that common quest. So, when badanov comes up with a line I should have heard decades ago, after having just read #8, I did burst out in laughter, though rolling on the floor may have been an exageration.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 16:02 Comments ||
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#20
Actually, Mrs. D., on reviewing the thread, I am coming to wonder if Poison Reverse isn't the first Israel-loving anti-semite I've ever met.
You notice how he steadfastly refuses to accept that I, as a Jew, might actually know what I am talking about, or that my opinion on how Israel should behave with regard to the Arab population within the borders of the 1967 conquest could possibly have any validity when compared to his?
Certainly he is rude, prone to unsupported insults (me a LEFT WING-er! Just last Sunday I was accused of being a Republican), and unwilling or incapable of critical thinking. (Don't know which. Maybe he just doesn't like me.)
At any rate, while he may (or may not, I'm not qualified to judge) know a great deal about computers, he clearly is a bit lacking when it comes to actual human beans.
Stop truncating quotes to suit you needs. Anyone who reads the entire link will agree with me.
Also, have you ever seen the map of Israel posted behind AraFART's (Center for Eliminating Israel) home office. You will notice that the word Israel is no where to be found on the map.
LH writes:"They have some group rights, even if those rights should (IMHO) be subordinate to Israel's rights to security."
This is my (original) point, exactly. Thank you. Finally, somebody with some common sense.
If the fake "Plaeos" want to live peacefully with Israel, then go for it. If they want to harm Israel, then wipe them out of Gaza.
Yes, I am familiar with Arafat's map. It is the front of every textbook issued to Palestinian schoolchildren, as well as throughout the Arab world. They also learn that Tel Aviv and Haifa are Palestinian cities, that the Jews have no historic connection to the land of Israel, especially Jerusalem and the Temple Mount rebuilt by King Herod the Great. After which Herod built Masada out in the Judean desert, where the final Jewish resistance against the Romans held out for three years.
If you are trying to teach me that the Palestinians led by Cairo-born Yasser Arafat, the nephew of Hitler's favorite Arab, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, are the enemies of Israel and the Jews, I'm afraid that isn't news -- to me or to any other long-time Rantburger.
PR: in chronological order, Badanov disagreed with you, Dave D. disagreed with you, Mrs. Davis and Dave D. laughed at you, Frank G. disagreed with you, LiberalHawk suggested the people living in the Territories have some human rights (which, knowing him means he thinks they shouldn't all be driven into the sea), and Mrs. Davis doubts your good intentions. I do not think you are doing as well as you think.
My view is that perpetrators of genocide are very rarely victors in war. See the Turks, the Germans, and Khmer Rouge. It doesn't work in that it doesn't engender any kind of gain for the perpetrators.
And I have a little military theory about ground troops and genocide: For all the effort and expense of training a military force; the first time that force is deployed to attack and fire on non-combatants as a matter of command policy, you may as well muster those troops out for good, for their combat efficiency both as a unit and as individual soldiers is gone forever. It doesn't work. Israelis know this from being the brunt of genocide and Americans know this, because frankly we still believe in truth justice and the American way. And the American way isn't genocide.
The Israelis and the US neither one are barbarians. Politically, and this goes across the political spectrum,. no one wants to 'exterminate' anyone if a victory can be achieved through military means. If extermination appears to be the answer then maybe it is time to examine the question.
PR: Your advocacy of 'extermination' is way over the top. The Israelis and Americans both have principls chief amounst them is the right to live. That right extends to everyone, unless they seek to kill. That is where the Israeli are: disuading terroists from carrying out acts of genocide.
And remember, the genocide that Hamas is carrying out is with their people as well as the Israelis.
Principles do matter. Were the Israelis and Americans to embrace the ideal that extermination is the only way to deal with Islamic terrorism I am not so certain that our subsequent acts are in line with those principles.
Clearly the IDF's doctrine is to prevent attacks where they can, respond to attacks where they must above all minimizing non-comtants' deaths. That is not just a laudible, it is their practice, and it is very well working. And that practice is worth preserving just as our own lives are.
I think you are starting to understand why they say don't feed the trolls. I wouldn't yet put PR in that category, but I don't feed him either.
You seem like a very intelligent, charming, and probably beautiful, woman. You also seem a bit indulgent of odd personalities. As you may be aware my husband, Mr. Davis, was identified by this site as a troll. I have been trying to find him since he left me shortly thereafter. You don't know his whereabouts by any chance?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/04/2004 17:44 Comments ||
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#25
I'm afraid I'm a very sheltered idealist, Mrs. D. I keep thinking its just ignorance...and then he is the first of his type that I've ever met -- I haven't your wisdom and experience. Of course, as I seem to recall from Mama's work with the mentally retarded (really!) "educable" technically means at least an 80 I.Q., the next step up from trainable, where one can be taught to sort widgets into bags -- and wipe one's bottom after toileting.
As for the rest of your statement: *rosy blush, shy gaze downward* If I weren't happily married, and we weren't both female...
I've long wondered if someone stole your Mr. Davis's identity, and whether he was overcome with shame that trollery could be believed of him. Up until he became a troll I thought him such a charming and knowledgeable gentleman, and you lucky to have him. I haven't seen him, I'm afraid, but if perchance I do, I shall feed him well and send him back to you post haste. Happy marriages are all too rare, alas. Just a thought: Is it possible he is hiding out under another name, hoping for a sign that we know the truth, and want him to come back to us? If so, let me be the first to say, "Come back, real Mr. D. We miss you!"
#26
One quick thing before my last thread, you know, me being a troll and a moonbat, etc.
TW writes:Israel-loving anti-semite I've ever met
If you are calling me a Israel-loving anti-semite, then do I have the right to call you a Semite loving anti-Israeli?
At the end of the day, you are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. Save the troll card for someone else. If you haven't figured out that I am not a troll by now, then I don't know what to tell you.
If the definition of troll is to purposely anger someone in a blog, then we are ALL guilty. I made you angry and you made me angry in this thread. End of story
#32
TW,
I wasn't trying to make anyone angry.
If the Paleos don't stop firing those rockets, very harsh steps need to be taken. We can't have Israeli pre-schoolers dying every week.
#34
PR - nobody here will deny the Paleos have it coming, but as has been noted above - resorting to their wanton death cult level of hatred is self-destructive for the Jews. The Israelis need to distribute periodic measured smack-downs and lessons taught to those Paleos (and I'm sure there are some) who can learn cause/effect.
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/04/2004 22:23 Comments ||
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#35
badanov,
I still stand by my words, but I will stand down and go with measured, for now. But the reality is, Hamas is getting more and more defiant, one day Israel will have no choice but to rinse & repeat.
Italian actor and director Roberto Benigni is to make a film about the Iraq war. Cue the "Jaws" theme building in the background
In spite of the subject matter, Oscar-winner Benigni intends the film - which is due for release in 2005 - to be a comedy. Benigni plays the part of a human shield poet who is in Iraq by chance and is caught up in the events. and our entre this evening...
Benigni criticised the West's role in the Iraq violence. "Westerners are running the show, all of those doing these things have studied in the West, it is not the Easterners. We know how many dreams the East gives, and how grateful we are to the East and love all its beautiful things," he said. [emphasis added] Yes, Roberto, by all means, invite yourself to Mecca. They'll welcome you with open arms. Especially if you mention your other movie."
Posted by: The Caucasus Nerd ||
10/04/2004 12:00:37 AM ||
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#6
I understand that poets flocked to Iraq after '91.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
10/04/2004 16:42 Comments ||
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#7
Vita Bella was such a liberal fantasy - even though it was a nice one.
All you have to do is believe that the world is beautiful and viola! Thus it is so! Refuse to acknowledge reality and without doing a thing, or fighting back, you can make evil go away.
Sure, it works great in movies. But in reality, that the kid would have been snatched within a day or two and put to hard labor or used for medical experiments after watching his dad walk off to the showers. Hey...I know it was only a movie and (sniff, sniff) it was beautiful because they imagined. [cue John Lenons "Imagine" music from background]
Someone should remind him that what made the ending happy in Vita Bella was the arrival of the American soldiers.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
In two Jerusalem appearances, Robertson praised Israel as part of God's plan and criticized Arab countries, saying their hopes to include Israeli-controlled land in a Palestinian state are part of ``Satan's plan.'' Robertson also offered a hint of rebuke for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for his plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, saying only God could decide on transfers of biblical land.
Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon said the majority of the casualties were terrorists; Palestinians report that over 70 Palestinians have been killed and 250 wounded since the operation began. Ya'alon deemed the offensive, which aims to eliminate Kassam rocket and other attacks on Israel, a success, noting it could continue for a number of weeks.
