The National Body for defending Rights and Freedom has disclosed today that the Political Security Organization(PSO) had detained many Yemeni nationals, who were arrested abroad and then handed over to the security authorities in Sanaâa. It held the (PSO) accountable for incarcerating the nationals identified as Abu Bakr Abdullah Omar and Sanad Ali Yasslom Al-kazami, who were deported from the Emirates and then turned over to the (PSO). According to the Body, another Yemeni national named majid Bark Mizan was caught in Saudi Arabia and was also surrendered to the (PSO) two months ago. It urged the chairman of the (PSO) Brig- Ghalib Al-Qamash to guarantee the detaineesâ rights, set them free and /or refer them to courts.
Unless they explode first, of course...
It also demanded that their relatives should be allowed an access to them in accordance with the constitution. On the other hand, the Body urged Yemeni authorities to instantly release Wasef Matar, a young man from Aden , who was apprehended earlier this year at the hand of the Republican Guards in Mashiq quarter, Aden. In a message addressed to the minister of Interior Dr. Rashad Al-alimi, it ( the Body) criticized Wasefâs detention and considered it a violation of the Yemeni constitution. The watchdog demanded , in another message addressed to Al-alimi, that legal procedures must be taken pertaining to Amir Ahmad Al-Baadani and his son Mohammed , who are being detained, in Shabwa provinceâs central jail, at the hands of the security forces, who held them in solitary confinements and threatened to liquidate them. It also stressed the importance of conducting thorough probes into the case of Bandr Chadir , who was illegally detained in Al-Mahweet province and then released on bail.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/06/2004 10:20:34 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[6 views]
Top|| File under:
Pitched fighting continued in Al-jaryah , one of the mountains where Al-huthi and his proponents took up their positions, military sources reported. They said armed elements from many tribes grouping Khamisain, Abss, Asimat and Jamima, today have seized Al-jaryah mount, which the government troops failed to capture.
That's one for the tribal lashkar. Maybe Saleh can loan them to Perv?
Al-sahwa net reporter, who visited Hamdan district, where Al-huthi's top aide was killed, said that yesterday's bombing, on the part of the government troops, was focused on Ayoob mountain, the impregnable stronghold of Al-huthi's militiamen. No casualties or heavy losses were reported, according to the reporter. He underscored that villagers in Al-Nashoor and Al-shafah neighborhoods evacuated their villages heading to Hamdan district environs. Official sources today have confirmed the killing of Abdullah Aidha Al-razami , the second most wanted man after Al-huthi, in intensive crossfire with the government troops. Government's military units earlier yesterday fired artillery and heavy machineguns at Ayoob mountain , killing Al-razami alongside two Al-huthi's loyalists, the source told the weekly 26 of September, a sisterly publication of Al-sahwa. The killed were accused of intercepting and stealthily firing at a military patrol, killing five soldiers and wounding another five , according to the source.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/06/2004 10:17:09 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
U.S. duplicity MAIN CAUSE of terror â saudis More of the same crap: Israel, through the US, wants to dominate the world (or is it the other way around? - they are never consistent about that).
By Sabria S. Jawhar The Saudi Gazette
SAUDIS believe that the double standard American policy in the Mideast is the main reason behind the violence and terrorist attacks in the world in general and the region in particular.
Americans, on the other hand, believe that exploding wahhabi cut-throats are the problem...
The American policy is based mainly on its interests that oscillate and vary regardless of those of other countries, said Abdullah Al-Sultan, a professor and expert on Political Sciences and international violence.
Expert on what? The Koran?
I dunno, a Saudi says he's an expert on international violence, I guess I have to believe him.
Al-Sultan remarks were prompted by statements recently made in the German publication Der Speigel by Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal who accused Washington of being unhelpful in the cause against terrorism because of its boundless support to Israel.
Which is... ummm... fighting its own war against terror...
There is a lot of frustration in the Islamic World, Alwaleed said, Most Saudis and most Arabs think that US does too little in Palestine and is too favorable to Israel.
We, on the other hand, think the Arabians are doing too little to help with a settlement in Paleostine. Their chief activities seem to consist of giving money and vocal encouragement to whackjobs, while demanding the U.S. come up with a plan. Every time the U.S. does come up with a plan the whackjobs pee on it.
The Saudis could solve the Paleo settlement problem real quick, but giving money to build Gaza and the WB seems to be rather alien to their nature.
In the interview Alwaleed also said the US could have avoided the Sept. 11, 2001 attack if it had adopted a stance less favorable to Israel, AFP reported.
Perhaps. But I doubt it. There's still the fact that we're infidels and proud of it...
Al-Sultan said that the powerful neo-conservatives mostly influence US policy and that they are acting with a sense of superiority and reflecting reality their real intention of controlling and shaping the world the way they want.
Unlike, say, the Learned Elders of Islam...
Israel also has a main role to play in the White House's general policy and that's related to Saudi Arabia in particular, he said. He supported Alwaleed's position, adding that if the US had exerted more efforts to solve the critical situation in Palestine it could have prevented bloodshed.
The critical situation in Paleostine is maintained at a critical level by design, and not by U.S. design.
They are following the saying, to defeat them, separate them in order to dominate the whole world, Al-Sultan said.
He means "divide and conquer." For myself, I'd quote Smokey the Bear: "Only you can prevent forest fires."
Sulaiman Tawfeeq, a Political Sciences professor at King Abdul Aziz University, Jeddah, agreed with Al-Sultan on US policy in the region kindling Arab and Muslim anger in the cultural, political and commercial spheres. People are not only boycotting the American products but they are also boycotting the American values that are mostly humanitarian and lofty, Tawfeeq said.
"Hahah, face! How's it feel to be without a nose? (Ow! Ow! Owwwwww!)
Many educated people are now suspicious about any idea emanating from the United States because it has lost its credibility in their minds even those ideas that are reasonable.
Since they're incapable of actually following logic, they have to wait for someone to tell them whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. Usually they're told it's a bad idea.
To him the double-standard policy has made people more extremist in their judgment of whatever the US exports to them. Yet, Tawfeeq disagreed with both Prince Alwaleed and Al-Sultan on the causes of terrorism in Saudi Arabia. He said that people have to differentiate between their anger against American policy and the current escalating violence and terrorism.
I'd say they have to stop considering guys with turbans and automatic weapons to be Kewlâ¢...
Terrorists are striking everywhere regardless of any religion, he said. They have their own agenda that they want to impose themselves on the whole world using Islam as an excuse. In his view, the terrorists are not reacting to what is happening in Palestine. On the contrary, they have not even talked or care about it, he said: They are acting out of an ideology that they are adopting .
Having worked at it diligently, they've managed to come up with something even more loathesome than rule by princes. Oh, what to do?
Nevertheless, he characterized the US strategy to fight terrorism as a failure because the war against terrorism cannot be won by military operations alone. It can only be won by supporting the international laws and organizations, as well as by being committed to the principles and values that govern relations in international society, he said.
Sure was working well on September 10th, 2001, wasn't it?
Supporting international laws and organizations is optional however if you're a member of the Master Religionâ¢.
He considered the US policy in the Mideast as a separate issue, one that has created anger but not terrorism. It has also created unnecessary hatred between the East and the West, he said, also blaming that policy for the tension that has recently surfaced between the Saudi and US governments. The Kingdom can never ignore what is going on in Palestine.
It will always be there whenever they need to change the subject...
Our Islamic position puts more responsibility on our shoulders toward it, he said. He also said that while the United States commitment to Israel's security is understandable what is going on has exceeded the security issue to creating inhumane situations inside Palestine. This will never help in solving the problem and actually it is weakening the international efforts to fight terrorism, especially those exerted by European Union, he said.
When was the EU's support for fighting terror anything other than weak?
I could say that this article is a load of crap, etc. etc., but it would be better to say that this article is an excellent example of the convoluted logic in the SA mind. They sure have a thing for Israel....boggles the mind.
BTW, Fred, masterful comments! My compliments to the Chef!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/06/2004 20:20 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Let's make the Saudi's fight the war on terror. Tell them that from now on, we'll sit back and let them handle it, and yet, for each american they let die at the hand of a Muslim, we gut one Royal Family member. Nice even trade right?
#3
I get it now. It's not the fault of the enormous House of Saud, and its numerous do-nothing, know-nothing princes and princesses. It's the fault of the US. The US is responsible for paying retribution to the Wahabi theo-crats who have been fomenting Islamo-insanity over the past 4 to 5 decades through "aid societies" and Islamic semitaries (oops I mean semiaries).
#4
Duplicity -(n)The act of floating one argument in english for American consumption and a mutually exclusive argument in arabic for domestic consumption. see also Arafat, Yasser
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 22:00 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Think that 300 mil Yasshole's got stashed in Switzerland has anything to do with creating those "inhumane situations inside Palestine"?
Nah, me neither.
#6
In the interview Alwaleed also said the US could have avoided the Sept. 11, 2001 attack if it had adopted a stance less favorable to Israel, AFP reported.
Perhaps. But I doubt it. There's still the fact that we're infidels and proud of it...
[comic book guy]
Best highlighting ... ever!
[/comic book guy]
And I think that says it all. Thank you very much, go home, good night!
A statement on a Web site known for carrying Islamic extremist comment has threatened to turn Yemen into a "third swamp" for U.S. forces now fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Passages from the same statement, which surfaced in full Tuesday on the Web, were carried Friday by the Asharq al-Awsat newspaper, which said it had received it from the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigade. Counterterrorism experts question whether it has any agents capable of launching attacks and say some of its claims are obviously exaggerated. The statement signed by the brigade also referred to a truce offer to Europe purportedly made by al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden three months ago, saying the offer would expire in a few days. "Our goals in the next phase: expanding the circle of conflict by spreading operations all around the world. (We will) drag America into a third swamp - after Iraq and Afghanistan - and let it be Yemen, God willing," the 10-page statement said.
How about we let the Yemeni army handle this, after all, it's their swamp.
It claimed a terrorist group working in Yemen had taken its name from Abu Ali al-Harthi, bin Laden's top lieutenant in Yemen when he and five other al-Qaida suspects were killed by U.S. forces in November. Al-Harthi was a suspect in the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in a Yemeni port in which 17 sailors were killed. The statement comes as Yemen prepares to open the trial of several suspects in the USS Cole attack, possibly as early as this week. The trial has been expected to start, then delayed, many times.
That happens when the defendents keep escaping and get caught again.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 11:37:40 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
The fact that half the Yemeni population appears to have been involved in at least some capacity in the Cole bombing may also have been a factor in postponing the trial.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 11:50 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Pay no attention to that brigade behind the curtain!
#3
Just let the JV (Saudis) handle the Yemenese kooks.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:04 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Just let the JV (Saudis) handle the Yemenese kooks.
How about we let the Yemeni handle the Saudi kooks, at least the Yemenis seem to understand the concept of "surround".
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 14:49 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Um, WTF? Besides hot dirt, smelly tribesmen and a place to refuel ships does Yemen have? What is in Yemen that the US need, wants or has to have? How about zero.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 16:10 Comments ||
Top||
#7
I dunno, why did Gamal Nasser spend half a decade trying to conquer it? He must have had some reason to get tens of thousands of Egyptian conscripts killed, and the Yemeni poison-gassed. I mean, other than fighting a proxy war against the Saudis.
Oh, hey - drugs! I already have a slogan ready for the oh-so-dearly-wished-for American intervention - "No Blood For Qat!"
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
07/06/2004 17:56 Comments ||
Top||
#8
I dunno, why did Gamal Nasser spend half a decade trying to conquer it?
Ah yes MAD:
Gamal, Gamal bright as a camel!
Where did your tankers go?
With burntout tanks
and shattered ranks
and ima cant remember
any mo
Yemeni forces have killed a top aide of anti-U.S. cleric Hussein al-Houthi but lost five of their own men, raising the death toll in two weeks of clashes to at least 146, a government source said on Tuesday.
"The man who shot Abdullah Ruzami,
He was the bravest of them alllll!"
"Yemeni forces killed Abdullah al-Ruzami, one of the biggest Houthi supporters, yesterday," the source said. "Five of our forces were killed and another five wounded." On Monday, Yemeni officials said security forces had killed 10 members of Houthiâs "Believing Youth" group in mountainous Saada province in northern Yemen. Sources close to Houthi have put the death toll from the clashes, which began on June 20, at about 200. Government sources say hundreds more of his supporters have been wounded or arrested or have surrendered to authorities.
"Oooch! Ouch! Hey! Stop it! You're hurting me! I quit!"
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 8:26:54 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
Abdullah al-Ruzami walks warily down the street,
With the brim pulled way down low
Ainât no sound but the sound of his feet,
Machine guns ready to go
Are you ready, are you ready for this
Are you hanging on the edge of your seat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, Iâm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:30 Comments ||
Top||
The Saud family was established in Ad Diriyah, in the center of Najd, near the modern capital of Riyadh, where they had settled around 1500. The tribes of the Najd, relatively isolated from Islamic life, had resumed various pagan practices. Some of the Arabian tribes attributed to trees and rocks the same sort of power that the Shia venerate in the tombs of Imams.
Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (died 1792), initiated a comprehensive reform. He grew up in Uyaynah, an oasis in southern Najd, where he studied Hanbali Islamic law. He continued his studies in Medina and then went to Iraq and to Iran.
In the late 1730s he returned to the Najd and began to write and preach against both Shia and local paganism. He focused on Muslim monotheism, and preached that there is only one God, who does not share power with anyone. His students called themselves muwahhidun (unitarians). Their detractors referred to them as "Wahhabis"--or "followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab."
Wahhab attached a militant political dimension to his preaching, attacking the Shia and attracting local sheikhs to his cause. He won over some local leaders in Uyaynah and destroying some shrines there with the assistance of the Saud family, but was obliged to leave that town because of Shiâa pressure, and headed for Ad Diriyah, where he was welcomed by the Saud family.
In 1744 Muhammad ibn Saud, head of the family, and Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, swore a traditional Muslim oath promising to work together to establish a state based on Islamic principles.
By 1765, when he died, Muhammad ibn Saudâs forces had established Wahhabism and the authority of the Saud family, over most of Najd. His son, Abd al Aziz, continued the Wahhabi advance.
In 1801 the Al Saud-Wahhabi armies attacked and sacked the shrine of Husayn in Karbala, Iraq.
In 1802 or 1803 they advanced on the Hijaz. In Mecca and Medina they destroyed monuments and grave markers used for prayer to Muslim saints and for votive rituals, which they consider acts of polytheism, just as Muhamed had supposedly destroyed pagan idols in Mecca. (note all the repeated Wahhabi linked destruction)
The Wahhabi advance to the Hijaz alarmed the ruler of Egypt, Muhamad Ali. In 1812 (some say 1816) he sent his son Tursun to the Hijaz, and later joined him.
On the Saudi side, Abd Allah ibn Saud ibn Abd al Aziz who faced the invading Egyptian army, but was rapidly defeated, and then pursued to Al Diriyah and evicted from there in 1818. The Wahhabis and the Saud family retreated to Riyadh, which became their capital in 1824. Subsequently the Sauds ruled Riyadh and a variable territory around it. However, interfamily rivalry and frequent civil wars weakened them.
In 1890 Muhammad ibn Rashid, put effective control of Riyadh, into the hands of his own garrison commander, Salim ibn Subhan ruling through a Saud family puppet. When the puppet ruler, Abd ar Rahman attempted to exert his authority, he was driven out of Riyadh. The Saud family fled to Kuwait.
Creation of Modern Saudi Arabia - In 1902, Abdul Aziz ibn Saud began battling his way back to power in the Najd and Riyadh, and by 1905 or 1906, the Ottomans had recognized him as their client in the Najd, and he was recognized as the Wahhabi imam. He continued his advances, aided by the Ikhwan brotherhood. The Ikhwan were Wahhabi Bedouin who had gathered into Hujjar - agricultural settlements geared for war.
By 1913 Abd al Azizâs had thrown the Ottomans out of Al Hufuf in eastern Arabia. Abdul Azizâs advance was during WW I. He sat by while the Hashemite family, aided and encouraged by the British, revolted against the Turks. After the war, ibn Saud resumed his advance, capturing the Jebel Shammar in 1921, Mecca in 1924 and Medina in 1925.
In 1932 he renamed renamed his Kingdom Saudi Arabia.
Suppresion of the Ikhwan - Ibn Saud had trouble controlling the Ikhwan, who were too eager to attack the Hashemites, clients of the British and enemies of the Wahhabi, and who had no tolerance for necessary twentieth century innovations, including all machines and telegraph as well as the presence of non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, forbidden by tradition. The Ikhwan remained eager to force reform on others, which led them to attack non-Wahhabi Muslims, and even Wahhabis, both in Saudi and in Iraq. When the Wahhabi forces continued to ignore his authority, Ibn Saud defeated them in battle in 1929. However, the conflict between the most extreme forces in Wahhabism and the more pragmatic strain was never completely resolved. (and continues into 2004...)
Saudi ulema remained suspicious of foreign inventions. For example, they first opposed radio as a suspect modern innovation for which there was no basis in the Qurâan and the Hadiths, but were reconciled when Abd al Aziz demonstrated that the radio could be used to broadcast the Qurâan. Wahhabi rule remains strict in Saudi Arabia. No foreigners can become citizens.
Women cannot get drivers licenses and cannot perform legal and financial procedures on their own.
Alcohol is forbidden in the kingdom.
Much more info in the link:
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 3:25:55 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
His students called themselves muwahhidun (unitarians).
I'll be damned... 9/11 was the fault of the Unitarians!
Passages from the Koran and the Hadith describe a paradise filled with rivers, trees and cool breezes. In short, perfect for a religion originating in the desert. Only Arabic is spoken and those admitted will consume one hundred times more food (fruits, dates and pomegranates) and non-intoxicating wine than while on earth. Unlike the Christian heaven, in Islamâs afterlife a person retains his human body and can have all the carnal delights he wants. In particular, a Muslim Martyr is given 70 black-eyed, buxom virgins (houris) who do not sleep, get pregnant, menstruate, spit, blow their noses or even defecate. In addition, if he so chooses his earthly wives can join him and also vouch for 70 of his family members to be admitted to paradise. The KORAN, which prohibits suicide, states that paradise automatically, awaits a MARTYR, who is someone that dies in Jihad or the struggle to defend Islam.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 3:44:54 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[6 views]
Top|| File under:
#2
Paradise as a brothel, very spiritual... from what I've read there is more, including enhancement of the sexual potency (no more ejaculation, tipp of the penis "round like an egg", ability to constantly be erect...)... F*ck, get boozed, all this with sexual toys not even human, ie paradise seen as the summum of what an unsophisticated bedouin from the 7th cent. like Muhammed could conjure to ensure his troops would have the incentive to die for him. This base vision of afterlife alone is enough to discredit islam in general for me.
#4
I must add that people more clever and insightful than me should question the effect sexual repression has on would be jihadee 's motivation. From israeli homicide bombers that carefully wrap up their shrivelled little penise to ensure it will remain functionnal to Muhammed Atta's testimony, it seems pious muslims (as jihadists are actually the most pious of muslims, taking their religion to a logical extrem) are fully consciuos of the sexual adventures that await them after their glorious death. Most muslim societies are sexually repressive, at the same time obsessed by sex (need to cover the wimmen), and all the while you have that utterly sexual reward in the afterlife... not an healthy combination. could it be that some martyrs are motivated purely by lust? Remember that paleo young teen that got arrested at a checkpoint after freaking out on his way to explode himself? He said one of the argument that was used was the 72 virgins. When you're a teen full of testosterone, in a society where girls are locked up and looked after closely, where you can't even masturbate because of promiscuity, and all the release you can have is to play at throwning stones at tanks, this can be an incentive, can't it? IMHO, the muslim paradise is one of the most disguting and dysfunctionnal feature of that religion
#6
The description all involves senses and the body-excessive food, drink, excessive sex, beauty, comfort-(hmmm, starting to sound like their view of America?). Where does all that excessive food go-does Allah cart it out from the martyr's quarters?
It makes me wonder where the soul comes in, as far as Islam.
#7
Non intoxicating wine=grape juice.
From yesterday,thank you Frank and everyone else who wished me well.The loss of part of a finger is well worth the relief.Ounce agin,I thank all of you.
.com(how do you capitialize a . lol),that spybot soft ware is great.It has already stopped at least 1/2 dozen attacks.Thanks Bro
#8
So, things that Islam considers to be sinful in life, you can enjoy them in heaven. Polygamy, orgies, homosexuality, drinking, men and women interactions, etc., all of the sudden become vitues once one dies.
#23
May the Arabian moon god grant each & every jihadee a speedy trip to 'paradise'. 72 camels await each one of them.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 18:41 Comments ||
Top||
#24
Begin your stay in Paradise with a getaway package to an exotic location! Enjoy a comfortable, infidel-free environment with an emphasis on friendship and camaraderie.
Dancing,(under moderate supervison) pool games, costume parties - even bingo are never as much fun in the real world.
Book now! Jihad Travel Inc., Mecca, SA
Ad/
On sale this week only! $59.95!!
Get your very own JIHAD-IT electric razor kit, for when you must vaction (for the cause)in Infidel-lands.
$59.95!!
Look like a real infidel with JIHAD-IT!
Only while supplies last!
JIHAD'IT is a member company of the Mahdi-Group, Inc., Beirut, Riyadh, Gaza City, London, Paris, & Jersey City
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 19:09 Comments ||
Top||
#25
.com or anyone, how do you post photos in here?
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 20:01 Comments ||
Top||
#34
ummmmmm.... sorry DF - I like PD's links better
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 22:28 Comments ||
Top||
#35
DF - Lol! You're not calling me a sissy(phus) are you?
'Tis everyman's burden to bear, uphill both ways, and there's just no escape from your genetic legacy. Damn Adam! Lol! So we seek shelter and solace wherever we can find it. You wymyns know the story well, I'm sure. Sigh. :-)
#37
Right, .com. All men are wired that way. That's the good news. The bad news is that's how the porn industry creates a (physiological/psychologically-based) addiction among their viewers-- so they can line their pockets with your cash. They capitalize on the "wiring."
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against examples of beautiful women--nude or not. But you better not fool yourself into thinking the women never get hurt by the industry and their role in it.
,com, you're one of my favorite posters, and I don't want to see you run around by your pecker. Enjoy. But be careful, okay?
LOL Yosemite Sam! ( #16)--my favorite post on today's strange foray.
Everybody gets "hurt" when selling their time, body, brain - if you want to define doing something other than what you'd prefer to be doing as hurt. When you get paid, you're even. Period. If the money (or whatever compensation is your coin) is insufficient, you'll bail. I am not a buyer for the victimization game - except in 2 very particular areas.
You and I could burn through 200-300 Frappacinos and never reach complete harmony on this topic, I'm afraid.
But regards children - and I actually think most people aren't intellectually mature enough to accurately gauge consequences until around 20 or later, much less the Euro 14-16 insanity - I am a hardcore pedo-buster. NMM loves to holler pedophile, because I've lived in Thailand. The first time it infuriated me, then when I realized it was a perv projection on his part (Man am I glad HE's never made it to TL, the asshole!) it became a laugh. I have personally assisted in a 'Net prosecution and at least partially responsible for 7 pedo sites being shut down - a personal pet peeve you might say. Some FBI offices like to pursue them but, sadly, not all.
Obviously, you can add true "slavery" - although I've never encountered it anywhere in any form or degree, personally. We've read about Darfur - and there are prolly 100 similar situations in progress around the world, but I can't get my hands 'round any of those throats. I have seen people who felt familial pressure, because they could earn more money in that venue, but I've also known many who left or avoided the sex biz despite the pressure. That's not slavery, that's a totally different neurosis. In Thailand, I figured it out: get to know the "mama-sans". They are who I talked to and came to befriend. And they were late-20's and up. So shoot me, they were funny, smart, tough, interesting graduates of the game - and the sanest, most engaging wymyns in Thailand. I coulda & shoulda married one particular lady - my regret is, indeed, strong - but that's another story. So if anyone's reading this and thinking about TL - skip the kiddies, sonny - talk to the mama-san! She's the lady you wanna chase, if chasin is your intent!
But for adults? Lol! Float your boat however you chose. Anyone who doesn't want to play can take their marbles and go home. Frown if you must, and you do not know enough about me to do more, but accept that there are other views regards sex. Most of us are willing "victims" of the wiring, heh.
From The Washington Post
The man in the soundproof broadcast booth wearing headphones and an intense gaze is discussing Saudi Arabian history with radio listeners this evening, but itâs not the kind the Saudi government would endorse. Saad Faqih recites a list of "massacres and assassinations" that he alleges were carried out by the late Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud, modern Saudi Arabiaâs first king, in his rise to power nearly 100 years ago. Then Faqih pauses to take calls from listeners phoning in from his homeland to offer their own impassioned accounts of the royal familyâs alleged transgressions. Just a few years ago, Faqih headed a small splinter group of Saudi exiles armed with a lone fax machine, a telephone and a dwindling list of contacts back home. These days, however, thanks to the Internet, satellite television and radio, cell phones and the largess of confidential benefactors, Faqihâs message of dissent is beamed 3,000 miles to Saudi Arabia in a live three-hour broadcast every evening. ...
The nerve center of Islah ("Reform") Radio is a small room in the back of an anonymous duplex, crammed with five computers, a few telephones, two sound mixers and an isolation booth constructed from plywood, plexiglass and duct tape. Faqih ... expresses views that would earn him immediate arrest if he set foot there [in Saudi Arabia]. The country, he tells a visitor, is on the verge of collapse, and a number of factors -- intensifying violence, conflict within the royal family, economic crisis -- could soon bring it down. "This is a crippled and corrupt regime," he declares. "I think the next few months are crucial."
His callers tonight are in complete agreement. A man from Jiddah phones in to denounce the "shameful acts of the royal family." A man who says he is a policeman complains about the lack of pay and equipment and says police are ordered to forgo fighting drugs and crime to focus on protecting the countryâs rulers. And a woman who identifies herself as "Reform Lover" takes a moment to praise Islah as "the voice of freedom." ...
He was already a successful surgeon when at age 30 he began dabbling in dissent. At first he wrote letters about unemployment and other social issues to friends who were close to the powerful interior minister, Prince Nayef. That was the accepted way, he says -- confidential, friendly, constructive. The letters, he says, were ignored. After the Persian Gulf War, he and other reformers went public. There was a 12-point petition in 1991, followed by a 44-page program of reform the following year. Then the government cracked down. Faqih was among 18 academics and professionals imprisoned in 1993. He was released after four weeks, and six months later left the country with his wife and four children. ....
In 1996 he formed his own group, the Movement for Islamic Reform in Arabia, on a shoestring budget. He insists his vision of a Saudi Islamic republic is benign: power-sharing, accountability, judicial independence, freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are his watchwords. "We honor the common belief of the nation, which is Islam, but we are against the monopoly of interpretation of Islam," he says. ...
The Internet gave Faqih a new means of communication, the cell phone another. People in Saudi Arabia can buy cell phone cards that allow them to make anonymous calls. Faqih established a Web site and began posting Saudisâ comments and complaints, creating an interactive platform for discussion and debate. But the real breakthrough came last year when he started the nightly radio broadcast. Nearly 60 percent of Saudi families own satellite dishes, he says, and they have become a prime-time audience for the broadcasts, which can be heard on satellite television. "This regime survives on secrecy and hypocrisy," he says. "With the radio we broke the barrier of secrecy and we created a means for people to speak not just to us, but to each other." ...
But Saudi officials say that their new set of allegations should compel the British to take action. They contend that a Libyan intelligence officer, Col. Mohamed Ismael, working under the cover of a charitable foundation in Tripoli, the World Islamic Call Society, came to London at least four times last year to meet with Faqih to discuss a plot to kill Abdullah and other members of the royal family. The sessions were allegedly arranged by Abdurahman Alamoudi, an American Muslim leader based in Northern Virginia. During the meetings, the Saudis contend, Ismael gave Faqih 1 million euros (about $1.2 million) for his broadcast activities and personal use. At the final session last October, they allege, Faqih gave Ismael the names of four radicals in Saudi Arabia who he said would carry out the assassinations.
By this account, about $1 million was transferred into the country through a travel company in Mecca, which was told the money was for the use of Gaddafiâs wife during a pilgrimage there. But the Saudis had monitored the London meetings and were able to arrest the suspected radicals before they could carry out the attacks. Ismael fled to Cairo, where he was arrested and returned to Riyadh. Alamoudi was stopped by British authorities last August with $340,000 inside a valise and the following month was arrested in the United States when he returned there. He is being held in an Alexandria jail on charges related to cash smuggling.
Faqih says the charges are ridiculous. He insists he never met with Ismael, received no money from Libya and did not put the alleged conspirators in contact with assassins inside the kingdom. He says he met several times with Alamoudi, and referred him to a British lawyer after Alamoudiâs cash was confiscated at Heathrow Airport. But he says he always kept a distance from the American Muslim leader. "Because he was classified as being too pro-American, it was in my interest not to associate myself with him," Faqih says. ...
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/06/2004 7:27:50 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
SAUDI Arabiaâs intelligence agencies are so infiltrated by al-Qaeda sympathisers that the kingdomâs counter-terrorist campaign is failing and militant operations are spreading into neighbouring states, senior Arab and Western officials have warned. The main Saudi intelligence organisation responsible for combating al-Qaeda at the Interior Ministry is riddled with agents linked to the militants, the officials say. "Their staff is 80 per cent sympathetic to al-Qaeda," one senior Arab source said.
More correctly phrased as "80 per cent of their staff is 100% sympathetic to al-Qaeda."
"All Saudi intelligence agencies are compromised. To fight al-Qaeda they will need to start from scratch. Iâm not hopeful the Saudis will win this one."
I'm not hopeful they'll even try to win this one.
The level of penetration in the security forces is highlighted by the number of former police and military men on the Interior Ministryâs list of the 26 most-wanted terrorists. They include Othman al-Amri, a former sergeant, who was No. 21 on the list and handed himself in last week as part of a royal amnesty, and Saleh al-Oufi, the leader of an al-Qaeda cell, who is a former police officer. The US embassy in Manama has urged all US citizens to consider leaving Bahrain because of "information" that extremists are planning attacks against US and other Western interests. "Iâm most concerned about Bahrain. If I was a Bahraini, I would worry," said a senior Arab official from one of Saudi Arabiaâs neighbours. "After that, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are also vulnerable." Evidence has emerged that Saudi Arabia is al-Qaedaâs main regional hub for recruiting, training, funding and arming its militant cells. Militants on both sides of the border have adopted identical tactics, such as suicide bombings, beheading Western hostages and dragging victims behind cars. "Weâre sure these are not copycat tactics being used here. This is a co-ordinated operation," said a senior Saudi official. "These groups do not just exchange information - they also reinforce each other with trained personnel."
If only they had listened to Old Spook and Fred.
Jordan, too, is in the firing line. The Jordanians have intercepted several al-Qaeda teams that have infiltrated the country from Saudi Arabia with the aim of whipping up opposition to Jordanâs leadership among the southern clans, which have tribal links across the border. Although the FBI, the CIA, British intelligence, Scotland Yardâs anti-terrorist squad and other foreign agencies are collaborating with the Saudis, they still face obstruction from local security services in investigating terrorist attacks.
Only from the 80% that's 100% ...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:25:28 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Time for contingency plan #7734. .com was right quite a while ago. The Saudis are too rotted out to take care of this one. The house will have to fall before the country is reformed. Remodel does not seem an option.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/06/2004 10:45 Comments ||
Top||
#2
80% is a bigger majority than any political party has ever gotten in the US.
This past week these pages have been filled with daily meditations on the British embrace of loserdom - Boris Johnson, James Delingpole, our friends in the leader pen opposite. Iâm not sure Iâd pass Norman Tebbitâs cricket test myself, but, if I did, Iâd be as upset as the rest of the Telegraph types at Accrington Stanley losing in straight sets or Annabel Croft blowing the penalty shoot-out. Hard to take, year in, year out.
None the less, it seems to me this morbid obsession with the national loser fetish obscured the really big British defeat - to Iran, in the Shatt al-Arab water polo. Six Royal Marines and two Royal Navy sailors were intercepted in Iraqi waters, forcibly escorted to Iranian waters, arrested, paraded on TV blindfold, obliged to confess wrongs and recite apologies, and eventually released. Their three boats are still being held by the Iranians.
Mullahs 8, HMG nil.
The curious thing is the lion that didnât roar. Tony Blair has views on everything and is usually happy to expound on them at length - if youâd just arrived from Planet Zongo and were plunked down at a joint Blair/Bush press conference on Iraq or Afghanistan or most of the rest of the world, youâd be forgiven for coming away with the impression that the Prime Ministerâs doing 90 per cent of the heavy lifting and the Presidentâs just there for emergency back-up. Yet, on an act of war and/or piracy perpetrated directly against British forces, Mister Chatty is mum.
Likewise, Jack Straw. The Foreign Secretary goes to Teheran the way other Labour grandees go to Tuscany. Heâs got a Rolodex full of A-list imams. When in the Islamic Republic, he does that "peace and blessings be upon his name" parenthesis whenever he mentions the Prophet Mohammed, just to show heâs cool with Islam, not like certain arrogant redneck cowboys we could mention. And where did all the ayatollah outreach get him? "We have diplomatic relations with Iran, we work hard on those relationships and sometimes the relationships are complicated," he twittered, "but Iâm in no doubt that our policy of engagement with the Government of Iran⊠is the best approach."
Even odder has been the acquiescence of the press. If pictures had been unearthed of some over-zealous Guantanamo guards doing to our plucky young West Midlands jihadi what the Iranian government did on TV to those Royal Marines, two thirds of Fleet Street (including many of my Spectator and Telegraph colleagues) would be frothing non-stop.
Instead, they seem to have accepted the British spin that thereâs been no breach of the Geneva Convention because the Marines and sailors werenât official prisoners of war, just freelance kidnap victims you can have what sport you wish with.
Why didnât Bush think of that one?
The only tough talk came from an unnamed official, briefing correspondents on the Iranian ambassadorâs summons to the Foreign Office for a diplomatic dressing down: "It was very much a one-way conversation," the FCO wallah assured the gentlemen of the press.
Do you think thatâs true? Or do you think it more likely that it was, in fact, a two-way conversation with lots of cajoling and pleading on the British part and reminders that London and Teheran are supposed to be friends?
Washingtonâs position is clear: Iran is a charter member of the axis of evil. (Well, itâs clear-ish: State Department types are prone to Jack Straw moments.) But London opted for "engagement" on the usual grounds that if you pretend these fellows are respectable theyâre more likely to behave respectably. In return, Britainâs boys got hijacked and taken on a classic Rogue State bender. And the version being broadcast throughout the Muslim world is that Teheran swatted the infidel and got away with it.
Thatâs what matters: getting away with it. Do you think Mr Straw, fretting over the "complications" of Anglo-Iranian relations, will make the mullahs pay any price for what they did? And, if he doesnât, what conclusions do you think the Islamic Republic will draw from its artful test of Western - or, at any rate, European - resolve? Right now, the British, French and Germans are making a show of getting tough on Iranâs nuclear ambitions. Is that "tough" as in "Go ahead, imam, make my day"? Or is it "tough" as in that officialâs "one-way conversation"? Just a bit of diplo-bluster. If you were the mullahs, you might well conclude that the Europeans donât mean it, that theyâve decided they can live with a nuclear Iran, and you might as well go full speed ahead.
One difficulty in dealing with the Islamic Republic is that the fellows out in front are sock puppets. Jack Straw is the real British Foreign Secretary. His Iranian counterpart is a man playing the role of foreign minister for international consumption. The big decisions are taken elsewhere. A couple of years ago, there was a lively speech by Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president and now head of the Expediency Council, which sounds like a committee of EU foreign ministers but is actually Iranâs highest religious body. Rafsanjani was looking forward to the big day when his side got nukes and settled the Zionist question for ever "since a single atomic bomb has the power to completely destroy Israel, while an Israeli counter-strike can only cause partial damage to the Islamic world."
Iâm inclined to take these fellows at their word. Next to Mr Straw and his "complications", these dudes are admirably plain-spoken. But letâs suppose Rafsanjani is more cunning, and he understands that perhaps he wonât have to use his bomb - that the mere fact of it will enable the country to get its way, in the region and beyond. Wouldnât the events of recent days have confirmed this view? And, if this is what he can get away with now, what might he try to pull when Iran is the first nuclear theocracy?
We Bush warmongers have grown fond of Mr Blair: often, heâs a better salesman for American policy than the President. But in the Shatt al-Arab incident for once he was on his own, and Britainâs Number One seed was unable to return a single volley. Iran is emboldened, and thatâs bad news for everyone else.
Posted by: ||
07/06/2004 2:34:44 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
There are certainly fewer people content with the Government's non-confrontational policy of pandering to the Mullahs. Is Blair one of them? We'll have to wait and see on that...
#1
Having American not be a transit point between Spain and Latin America is fine with me.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 13:30 Comments ||
Top||
#2
What's wrong with these guys? All they have to do is buy three or four 747-400s (or 777s if the load isn't quite that high) and they can launch nonstop service from Madrid to any Central American city they wish.
Follow the money...where did it go?
Germanyâs Deutsche Bank took advantage of a legal loophole last year to seize USD 28 million (EUR 23 million) from an Italian account held by Saddam Hussein, according to a German news report. The money had been deposited by Saddam in 1990 with Deutsche Bank SpA, an Italian subsidiary of the Frankfurt-based bank, said the report in Der Spiegel news magazine. Under terms of UN Security Council resolutions, all of Saddamâs money was frozen awaiting the setting up of a post-war development fund for Iraq. However, Deutsche Bank took advantage of a European Union (EU) regulation allowing banks to seize otherwise frozen accounts for payment of back debts. That allowed Deutsche Bank to put the USD 28 million toward USD 150 million in back debts, Whose back debts?
according to the report, which hit newsstands on Monday. The transaction was rushed through last 22 September, ahead of new EU regulations that took effect on 16 October effectively closing the loophole.
Posted by: Seafarious ||
07/06/2004 1:13:40 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Inmates running asylum.
Posted by: Capt America ||
07/06/2004 2:33 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Under terms of UN Security Council resolutions, all of Saddamâs money was frozen awaiting the setting up of a post-war development fund for Iraq. However, Deutsche Bank took advantage of a European Union (EU) regulation allowing banks to seize otherwise frozen accounts for payment of back debts...
How many pre-war cries were there from Europe about how America was only in it for the money? How do you spell hypocrites in German?
Ten suspected Islamist militants have been ordered to stand trial in France in connection with a failed plot to bomb a Christmas market in the eastern city of Strasbourg in 2000, court sources said Monday. The trial of the so-called "Frankfurt group", who stand accused of criminal association related to a terrorist group, was expected to begin in a Paris criminal court in October. The suspects face a maximum of 10 years in prison. French investigators believe that they thwarted what could have been a massive attack with just a few days to spare. The 10 suspects are accused of helping to plan the attack on the Strasbourg market in December 2000, a crowded venue throughout the Christmas holiday period. Among those due to stand trial is the suspected mastermind of the attack, Algerian national Mohamed Bensakhria, who was arrested in Spain in June 2001 and later extradited to France. Investigators say Bensakhria travelled to Strasbourg on December 10, 2000 - as the market was being set up - to research the location for the alleged bomb attack. French police began investigating the matter after German police arrested several suspects. Four members of the "Frankfurt group" were convicted in a Frankfurt court in March 2003 in connection with the plot, and sentenced to between 10 and 12 years in prison.
Posted by: Seafarious ||
07/06/2004 1:08:56 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Ansar Al Islam, regarded as one of the most lethal Islamic insurgency groups, has extended its operation to Turkey. Turkish officials said Ansar Al Islam operatives have been stationed in several cities of Turkey to plan attacks. They said these operatives were trained by Al Qaida and infiltrated Turkey from neighboring Iraq. Ansar Al Islam was believed to have carried out the November 2003 suicide strikes against synagogues and banks in Istanbul. More than 60 people were killed in the car bombings, Middle East Newsline reported. Since then, officials said, Ansar operatives have been streaming into Turkey. They said many of them could have come under the guise of Kurdish insurgents.
"Hey, you! Stop right there! Hands up! Papers!"
"Effendi, I'm just a simple Kurdish insurgent."
"Oh, hokay, sorry, simple mistake. You can go!"
On June 18, Turkish security forces captured four suspected Ansar operatives in Bursa and Istanbul in a plot to attack the NATO summit at the end of this month. Officials said Turkish police seized several remote-control bombs as part of a plot to infiltrate a car bomb into the summit grounds.
"Mustafa! The number 4 truncheon, please!"
Officials said the four men have confessed quickly and painfully to being part of Al Qaida-inspired plans to carry out suicide attacks. The suspects were arraigned at Istanbul State Security Court. Earlier, three other Ansar members were detained in a counter-insurgency operation in Istanbul.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 10:56:39 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 23:14 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
sorry Aris, but I feel a whole lot better
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 23:16 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Yet another attempt by the nationalist American/Zionist hegemony to reduce the sovereign anarchy of the Greek People. Any nationality would find better friends in the heathen hordes of Turkey than with Americans or Jews. Are the Americans and Zionists to introduce their own prisons on Greek soil, the better to provide "security" to their "athletes?" Will we see a repeat of Abu Sahib, where countless innocent Islamist freedom fighters were mocked and ridiculed?
What's this? Goat drool? Please excuse me, I'm just a starving college student. It's irresistable... yum yum.
#4
And "Sparus", only far right-winger Greeks would use words like "Zionists" or "heathen hordes of Turkey" but those people would also never use "nationalist" as an insult.
On the other hand, the conspiracist-talk about American instituting prisons and surveillance system and big-brother stuff belongs properly to the far-left-wing of the Greek looney spectrum -- the far-right-wing of the same spectrum would have said stuff about America trying to destroy our culture, language, and religion. Attacking Orthodoxy and stuff.
Try to be consistent in your parody, regardless of whether you are .com or Ptah or whomever, dear Anonymous Coward.
Any referance to:
"An ominous sounding message from the Abu Hafs Masri Brigade this weekend instructs Muslims as follows: âMuslims in the West should depart to Muslim states if they can. Those who cannot should take precautions and live in Muslim areas, have enough food to last a month, find ways to protect themselves and their families, leave enough money in the house to last one month or longer and to pray a lot and put their fate in Godâs hands,â
As the window for the truce offered by Osama Bin Laden to Europe nears its end on July 13, it has become evident that no one has accepted the cease fire offer. According to the audiotape statement issued by Bin Laden and released on April 15, the proposed truce would go into effect for each country âwhen their last soldier leaves the (Islamic) countriesâ." And blah, blah, blah......
#9
If you're asking if I was referencing the quoted text, no, not really. Those statements and threats have always failed to deliver on schedule. I just think it's pretty clear that we're reaching an active period. So many possible venues of heavy press (what they crave) - and the seeming perception that Europe is the weak spot - though I would guess that's not actually true for many countries. You can just feel it - much more shit will hit the fan soon, very soon. I'd love to be wrong, but...
Excerpt:
"At least five detainees released from Guantanamo have returned to the [Afghan] battlefield," the defense official said on the condition of anonymity.
This is why we're taking samples of their DNA. Helps ID those bloody smears.
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 11:21:48 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
I think we probably conducted a study on the prisoners chances of killing one of our soldiers versus his room and board in Gitmo. I doubt that those released will be much help to the Taliban cause.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:00 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Are they making plans to be recaptured? Wouldn't want to miss out on the class action suit. And Gitmo will probably be looking pretty good when December rolls around in Afghanistan.
#4
That's what you get when you don't kill the enemy.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
07/06/2004 12:35 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Surely we must have collected enough intelligence from soldiers on the ground to be able to press charges against detainees who were fighting against us in Afghanistan? If not, who can we rely on to legally document the names, prisoner behavior, (alleged) offenses, release dates, and post-release activities of the detainees?
While I do have a problem with prisoners being held without charge, I have a really big problem with releasing prisoners who have murdered our brothers, friends, neighbors. How many more dead Americans will be the consequence of this release?
#7
If not, who can we rely on to legally document the names, prisoner behavior, (alleged) offenses, release dates, and post-release activities of the detainees?
All the more reason to kill these jerks when they attack, instead of trying to capture them. Getting into the legal aspect just opens up a six pack's worth of worm cans.
#9
Mike Sylvester, poseted some information that directly linked the Geneva wording. Evidently, Geneva doesn't prescribe immediate execution for illegal combatants. I was disappointed. I would search the back issues of Rantburg, but I don't have access. To bad the trolls used the search function for evil as search was quite useful to prevent double posting.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 18:21 Comments ||
Top||
By the way, I found this in about 15 seconds using Rantburg's Headlines feature. I selected a year's worth of headlines and then looked for the words "Geneva Convention" (I had the advantage that I remembered the title).
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/06/2004 23:13 Comments ||
Top||
#11
Meow!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 23:15 Comments ||
Top||
What a Shame. Ferocious Mexican soldiers carrying frightening automatic weapons interrupted the U.S. Independence Day funeral of a U.S. Marine and demanded that the Marine honor guard give up ceremonial replicas of rifles they carried. Hundreds of friends and relatives packed a small cemetery for the funeral on Sunday of 22-year-old Juan Lopez, who was born in this sun-scorched farming town, immigrated to Dalton, Georgia, as a teenager and became a Marine. He was killed in an ambush in Ramadi, west of Baghdad, on June 21. Maj. Curt Gwilliam presented an American flag to Lopezâs widow, Sandra Torres, who clutched a bouquet of yellow and white flowers while tears streamed down her face. While the funeral demonstrated the close human ties of Mexico and the United States, problems began moments after the start -- leading to an expression of outrage by the U.S. ambassador.
Four U.S. Marines marched solemnly to the grave carrying an American flag and the colors of the Marine Corps. Two of the men had rifles that looked real, but could not be fired, strapped to their backs. Four Mexican soldiers blocked their path, asking the four Marines and six others who had served as pallbearers to return to the car that had brought them to the funeral. Several minutes of discussions by soldiers from both countries continued until a trumpet player began a rendition of taps and the funeral continued, despite the objections of the Mexican troops. When the ceremony was complete, all the Marines on hand returned to a U.S. Embassy vehicle and waited. Fourteen Mexican soldiers arrived to guard the premises. About 40 minutes later, apparently under orders from a superior officer, the Mexican soldiers allowed the van to leave. "Iâm outraged that this would take away from the ceremony honoring U.S. Marine Juan Lopez Rangel, whose family requested he be buried in his town of birth with full military honors," U.S. Ambassador Tony Garza said in a prepared statement.
A long-ago generation of Marines played a part in Mexicoâs deep suspicion of any foreign military force on its territory. The Marine Hymnâs "Halls of Montezuma" refers to the 1847 capture of Mexico City.
Ummm... That was... No, wait! Lemme count... Uhhh... (... 34, carry the 9... square root of 51...) 157 years ago, give or take a few months. And they're still scared?
The Mexican Defense Department banned plans for a 21-gun salute by Marines because Mexicoâs Constitution bans foreign soldiers from carrying firearms here.
Not even to render honors to Mexican citizens...
Mexican soldiers at the funeral refused to comment, but U.S. Embassy spokesman Jim Dickmeyer said they likely saw the rifle replicas and mistakenly thought the Marines were planning to fire a salute anyway. "These are ceremonial weapons," Dickmeyer said. "We were told not to bring M-16s, we didnât bring M-16s. We were told not to fire in the air, we didnât fire in the air."
Lopezâs cousin, Octavio Lopez, called the interruption "a big mistake. If carrying these rifles was part of the ceremony, a ceremony the family wanted, how could it have been anything but positive?"
Depends on whether whoever's making the decision is stoopid, huh?
When U.S. Marines loaded Lopezâs gray coffin onto a hearse earlier in the afternoon, a swell of local residents poured through the street and marched with the Lopez family past shabby brick homes. A mariachi band dressed in green sang, "Goodbye for ever, goodbye." The music never stopped during a somber 45-minute march across town. As church services began, about 300 people who could not fit inside listened over loudspeakers and sang along. An hour later, several hundred people marched about a kilometer (a half mile) to the ceremony to watch as Lopezâs gray coffin was lowered into the ground. Even many of those who marched in Lopezâs honor were not shy about voicing their opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq. "For a Mexican to go and die for a country that wasnât his own, itâs too tragic," said Marciana Camacho, who runs a convenience store a block from the home where Lopezâs wife lived with his parents. "Iraq is so far away from our little town. It doesnât make sense."
But then, Marciana doesn't get out much, and nobody's ever exploded in her convenience store in her little town...
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
07/06/2004 10:59:57 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Even many of those who marched in Lopezâs honor were not shy about voicing their opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
"For a Mexican to go and die for a country that wasnât his own, itâs too tragic," said Marciana Camacho..."Iraq is so far away from our little town. It doesnât make sense."
Camacho is not expressing her opposition to the war in Iraq, she's expressing her opposition to someone from her little town dying in far-off Iraq "for a country that wasn't his own." Perhaps Ms. Camacho is confused about what country Lopez considered his own.
#2
Godspeed to a brave man, obviously a far better man than those in service to Mexico. This kind of nonsense goes on all the time as anyone who lives near the border can tell you. It's time to stop it. Seal the border. Send the illegals home or as a minimum, stop the wire transfer of money back to Mexico and let Vincente Fox do a Leahy.
#3
"For a Mexican to go and die for a country that wasnât his own, itâs too tragic," said Marciana Camacho, who runs a convenience store a block from the home where Lopezâs wife lived with his parents.
What's worth noting is that this "Mexican" was willing to put his life on the line for the U.S., not Mexico.
"Iraq is so far away from our little town. It doesnât make sense."
No problem. Stay away from Iraq, and most of all, stay away from the U.S. border. Spread the word to ALL of your countrymen to stay in Mexico and stop trying to sneak into the U.S. illegally, and we'll get along just fine.
#4
Ms Camacho's statement encapsulates why TJ is not known as the home of the brave. The Brave swim the Rio Grande or apply for a VISA.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:11 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Interesting that the Mexican Soldiers were âoffendedâ by other soldiers offering to honor fallen comrade. I bet these were not âregularâ soldiers but some lowlifes trying to make a splash in the papers. I also would not put it passed one of the LLL to stage an incident such as this. Yes I have the tinfoil beanie on today! On the other hand if the Mexican Army is feeling wily maybe they should deploy along the border and stop the thousands of citizen leaving their precious country!
#6
Interesting that the Mexican Soldiers were âoffendedâ by other soldiers offering to honor fallen comrade. I bet these were not âregularâ soldiers but some lowlifes trying to make a splash in the papers. I also would not put it passed one of the LLL to stage an incident such as this. Yes I have the tinfoil beanie on today! On the other hand if the Mexican Army is feeling wily maybe they should deploy along the border and stop the thousands of citizen leaving their precious country!
#7
Let's see...the Mexican "military" is by and large so corrupt that they fire on US Border Patrol and US citizens protecting drug lords and "illegals" smugglers. But the Mexican
"military" is macho enough to roust unarmed guards at the funeral of a brave, dead US Marine.
That makes sense. The only ones the Mexican
"military" has the balls to confront are unarmed. I guess they were mad they didn't get a payoff.
Three cheers for Vicente Fox, friend of the Norte Americanos.
#10
Check out their school textbooks. Still preaching they lost half their territory to U.S. as if it happened yesterday. Helps put the funeral issue into some sort of context...
Where does the Arab News find imbecils like the author to write such crap?
CAIRO, 6 July 2004 â Islamophobia is alive and well in the US, starting with the authorities down to individuals such as radio talk show host Jay Severin who, according to the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) claimed that Muslims want to take over America even if it takes centuries, adding âIâve got an idea. Letâs all kill Muslimsâ. Amazingly Severin is still in his job, although he has been forced to apologize on air. CAIR has also filed complaints over an offensive skit on the March 10 Bill Handel show on KFI AM 640 entitled âthe New Iraqi Constitution â Handelizedâ. In it, a voice purporting to be that of a Muslim says: âKill all Jewsâ, and complains of âthe infidel custom of bathing on a regular basisâ. The Council has additionally demanded an apology from syndicated radio commentator Paul Harvey, who when talking about cockfighting in Iraq said: âAdd to the thirst for blood a religion, which encourages killing, and it is entirely understandable if Americans come to this bloody party unpreparedâ.
Last November, syndicated talk show host Dr. Laura, heard by 12 million listeners, is said by CAIR to have âcrossed the line from legitimate commentary on terrorism to Islamophobic bigotryâ. Her rant began when she was asked by a mother whether her 16-year-old daughter should be allowed to attend a local mosque to learn how âMuslims are treatedâ in America. Answered the wizened therapist: ââŠYouâre joking of course. How many Americans have tortured and murdered Muslims⊠I think you ought to stand up against this class and this teacher. This is despicable. You tell him you are willing to go to the mosque only if it is one that has done its best to root out terrorists in its midstâŠâ
But such ignorance and hatred isnât confined to radio hosts. CAIR campaigned to have top US Gen. William G. Boykin, the Undersecretary for Defense on Intelligence, removed from office last year, after he referred to Islam as an idolatrous, sacrilegious religion against which âwe are waging a holy warâ. While discussing his efforts to capture a Muslim Somali warlord, Boykin said: âI knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idolâ. CAIR earlier fought against President Bushâs nomination of âpro-Israel commentator Daniel Pipes â who many American Muslims regard as the nationâs leading Islamophobe â to join the board of the United States Institute of Peace â a federal institution created by Congressâ.
In Oct. 21, 2001, Pipes stated before a convention of the American Jewish Congress: âI worry very much, from the Jewish point of view, that the presence, and increased statute, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims⊠will present true dangers to American Jewsâ. Indeed, Pipes calls for increased surveillance of American Muslims in an article, which appeared in the Jerusalem Post. âThere is no escaping the unfortunate fact that Muslim government employees in law enforcement, the military, and the diplomatic corps need to be watched for connections to terrorism,â he wrote. Pipes has also been quoted as saying: âPalestinians are miserable people⊠and they deserve to beâ, while his website entitled âCampus Watchâ, which kept dossiers on professors thought to be critical of Israel, has attracted controversy.
The above all share a single trait and that is astonishing ignorance. Severin, for example, complains Muslims plan on taking over America, when it is Americans, who have, in the past three years invaded and occupied two Muslim countries, while supporting the Israeli occupation of another. Handel gives the impression that Muslims are shy of bathing, when due to the fact Muslims have to perform ablutions five times a day before prayer, they are probably among the cleanest people on earth. It is doubtful that Handel knows about the Eastern custom of washing themselves and their dishes in running water and using the right hand for eating, with the left reserved for toilet functions. Harvey obviously has no idea of the peaceful nature of Islam or that the word itself means âsubmissionâ with the most popular greeting being âpeaceâ.
And as for Dr. Laura, who asks how many Americans have tortured and murdered Muslims, the fact that the US is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Afghans, up to 15,000 Iraqi civilians, and the torture and abuse of detainees in Bagram, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo must have entirely escaped her notice. It is surely ironic that Boykin refers to Islam as an idolatrous religion when just the opposite is the case. Islam does not allow representations of either human or animal form whether depicted in paintings or sculpture. This is why the interiors of mosques are simple, decorated only with geometric patterns and calligraphic designs. When it comes to Pipes, he is so bathed in discrimination, bias and paranoia that he doesnât merit a response.
But it isnât only influential individuals such as these who have an ax to grind against Muslims. In New Jersey and Texas, mosques have been targeted by vandals, who dumped dead fish outside the entrance to one, and liquor bottles inside an Islamic Educational Center. Inside a Muslim community center in Florida, was written âKill all Muslimsâ while in Missouri, a Nazi swastika and âdieâ were painted on an extension to the Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis. A message received by CAIR read: it may be time to âtake Muslims hostage here in America, adding: âI believe the time is coming when Muslims will not be safe inside the US bordersâ.
Responding to this growing and deeply disturbing trend, CAIR has published a âMuslim Community Safety Kitâ containing information âdesigned to equip local Islamic leaders and activists with the knowledge necessary to protect against anti-Muslim bigotry or attacksâ. However what is really required is a sea change in education and attitudes in the US, where a mere 14 percent of the population possesses a passport and relatively few have even met a Muslim, let alone befriended one.
Whoever said: âFear plus ignorance equals evilâ was right on the mark. Itâs ignorance, more than anything else, which must be combated if tolerance and respect for other faiths can ever reign on our planet.
(Linda S. Heard is a specialist writer on Mideast affairs and welcomes feedback at solitairemedia@yahoo.co.uk)
Posted by: Anonymous4617 ||
07/06/2004 6:07:47 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Not all 'slims are terrorists, but so far, all of the terrorists have been 'slims.
The 'slims aught to worry about their own terror flock before worrying that we are upset that they are a bunch of murdering drones for muhammud the child molester/prophet.
#10
PLEASE IGNORE THIS TRIPE. I do not come to this site to read crap from these moonbats. Much less watch intelligent people implode responding to them. If I want to suffer this madness I need only wach CNN. Please do not respond to these assmuzzles. They want only to side track us. It is childish and a waste of Fred's bandwidth. Besides, .com has threatened to stop giving tech advise (no really, I read it here last night! Yoo, Hoo!).
#13
Also left out almuhajiroun.com. What, account has been suspended? Forgot to pay the light bill?
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 9:40 Comments ||
Top||
#14
You are forgetting your manners, Antiwar dear. At this rate you'll never become a lady.
Oh, and if you want to know what effective Jew haters sound like, go read "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler (it is available in translation for those whose German is a bit weak) and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" by the Imperial Russian version of the KGB. I'm sure you can order copies from all the sites you listed above.
But you definitely need to finish reading your etiquette book first, dear. Business before pleasure, you know.
#15
Hi AntiWar!
Study up on the Rothschildt Conspiracy, it allows me to hate jews without being antisemitic! It's complicated but well worth the time as it will do away with any latent guilt feelings you have towards your glorious hate.
#16
"Islam does not allow representations of either human or animal form whether depicted in paintings or sculpture. This is why the interiors of mosques are simple, decorated only with geometric patterns and calligraphic designs"
He then pointed to a giant poster of Al-Sadr and said "Our great leader would agree".
#18
A little perspective is always good; so, IMO, Antiwar is a fake -- s/he pretends to be a nice, concerned liberal, but s/he gets real nasty when support for islamofascists (including undermining Western society and values) is confronted too directly. So as not to waste bandwidth, you can read the Same Story, Different Day -- right here in a previous thread.
#25
Antiwar,
I'm sure you aren't aware of the source of your opinions. That is why I recommend that you read the real thing to understand why all here have labelled you as such. Hitler was renowned for his kindness to children and dogs, he was vegetarian, didn't smoke or drink, was concerned about the environment, and worked very hard to ensure that his people lived comfortable and secure lives, and were enabled to achieve their full potential.
I look forward to hearing from you after you've read "Mein Kampf" and the Protocols.
#28
CAIR has a long history of omitting the entire story. One need only look up and read the actual comments of Jay, Dr. Laura and Dr. Pipes to know what was actually said. CAIR doesn't speak of the supposed "hate crimes" supposedly committed against muslims that have turned out to be hoaxes perpetrated by muslims themselves.
There have been a number of prominent muslims who have themselves proclaimed their desire to see the U.S. under the caliphate...Yahiya Emerick, Siraj Wahhaj...
Posted by: jawa ||
07/06/2004 11:11 Comments ||
Top||
#29
The Professional Victim line is over there. But it's very long, so be prepared to wait.
#30
antiwar the virginia company conspiracy is say the united states not realy is itn own country but is own by the virginia company of england. they are also own the irs and federal reserve. which branch of goverment is control the irs? none. itn privately owned hit squad.
Until you've done the research, your opinions are necessarily uniformed drivel, no matter how heartfelt. You'll notice that Rantburg's respected posters actually know what they are talking about.
If you don't want to actually fund the haters, you can read the recommended texts at http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/politica/hitla002.htm and http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols.html I imagine you'll be surprised at how closely your opinions match those in the texts.
But, unless you are willing to do the work to inform yourself, Fred would be well advised to ban you for the troll you choose to be.
#36
Antiwar,
Your consideration is worth nothing until you actually do the research to determine whether I am right or wrong. I never suggested that you support GWB or the U.S, or even Israel.
And, unless your IQ measures Genius, my brain is potentially more effective than yours -- as in so many other things, it isn't size that matters (see brain, Anatole France, et al).
I'm afraid there isn't any connection between eidetic-type memory, such as yours, and absolute intelligence, which is about the ability to understand and manipulate various kinds of information in context -- separate from emotion and intention, or including both as simply factors. However, it can be helpful in that you'll only once have to read the information on the sites I've given in order to be able to think about it.
#41
I'm sorry to say, muck, that Pete probably isn't joking and neither is Antiwar.
Antiwar, while I do not agree with the sort of hostility being shown to you here, I do understand why people are so frustrated with you. The extent of atrocities committed by Islamist fanatics obliges me to view all militant jihadis as merely a new form of Nazi. You claim to disagree with Nazi mentality but fail to realize how so many people equate their hatred of the Jews with Nazi genocide. There is ample proof of Arab admiration for Hitler. You may wish to reconsider your position regarding support for any organization that promotes terrorism or anti-Semitism. Due to previous demonstrations of opacity upon your own part, Antiwar, I regret to say that any follow-up posts to this one will be unlikely.
Since you don't have a good understanding of comments made in English, try Indonesian:
Kamu tidak mempunyai hikmat, saja karena kamu orang bodoh. Kamu orang bodoh karena kamu membenci agama Keristen dan peradaban Barat yang tumbuh dari agama perdamaian itu. Karena kebencianmu, kamu belum pernah tersadar bahwa kamu tetap aman dan bebas hanya karena kebudayaan yang kamu membenci.
#45
Hey, Antiwar, "membaca apa aku tulis." But, more importantly, those who don't know about you (yet) can read the Same Story, Different Day -- right here in a previous thread.
#47
Antiwar would have others believe that Iraq was a peaceful place before the Americans came. She is right with respect to Hillah. Bremer visited there before he left and reminisced about the quiet countryside with an old friend:
"I visited this when I first came here," Bremer said.
"This lady, this poor lady came to every grave," said Qizwini, pointing to a photo of a woman in an abaya sitting, her arms reaching forward over a mound of earth. "At each excavation she would sit by the grave and say, 'Is this my son? Is this my son?' and no one answered her."
Qizwini started to move on, but Bremer slowed him. "Did she ever find her son?" he asked.
"No, she did not," Qizwini answered.
I suspect that Antiwar is pining the loss of her soulmate - Dr Jim Cairns a man who worked for in the interest of the Australian people ... as long as those interests didn't conflict with those of his Soviet masters.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 13:17 Comments ||
Top||
#48
CAIR seems awful sensitive about mean words uttered by Americans. Have they made a policy statement about the enslavement and machete killings of Christians and Animists in Dafur?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 13:20 Comments ||
Top||
#49
Anti-War
See if you are true to your principles: replace Zionism (support for the Jewish nation) with Jihadism (support for the Islamic nation) in your own sentence:
However I am opposed to jihadism as a policy whose aim is to turn Islam from a religion to a political entity.
#51
Antiwar, what do you actually support? Are you a WPC flunky? Why do you support the quiet of a regime that populated 500,000 graves with corpses that have bullet holes through their cerebrums? Are you going to paint Iran as a liberal democracy as well? Couldn't you join HRW watch and at least condemn the Mullahs, Sadaams, little Kims et. al. even though they don't agree with taking action against benign leaders like Pol Pot. Is there an Islamic or leftist thug that you are willing to say some mean stuff about?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 14:03 Comments ||
Top||
#52
No Superhose,
But Ghazi Khankan, NY Chapter head of CAIR has circulated a petition condemning the damaging of mosques in Iraq. No petitions condemning brutal beheadings of innocent non-muslims, massacres in the Sudan, etc...
Posted by: jawa ||
07/06/2004 14:19 Comments ||
Top||
#53
I'll give this some credence after the beheading of the third muslim kidnap victim in the US. Until then it's just agitprop crap.
#54
I'm not sure why everyone's been taking the bait from this dumb anti-semitic crack.....
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 14:27 Comments ||
Top||
#55
Ah, but Antiwar, Israel is a secular country. Religion is not taught in the public schools, being Jewish is not a requirement for full citizenship rights, religious law does not supercede secular law -- not even for those who are Jewish. For many there Judaism follows Sartre's definition, and has little or nothing to do with religious practice.
Go do your homework. Until that's done, you are not qualified to have an opinion.
#56
Frank,
We keep on in the hope that she is capable of learning. Look how far Mucky has come from the first time he posted here. Now he is positively likable!
Have you ever done anything to remedy the situation of millions of Africans displaced out of their lands or being killed? Have you ever done anything for the hundreds of South Americans Indians being killed and their habitat destroyed? Have you even foster a child in need? Have you ever done anything tangible for another human being?
#69
We thank you for your job AntiWar! I over ran that post! Thank you for taking care of the weak minded and loose limbed! You are a national treasure and should be treated as such.
#88
#70, already happened: Rhodesians are ok, if they dont have a country. (They don't have a country, and they're not ok).
And so, on to Antiwar: You mongrel, normally, I dont take the bait, but you really must google blood-diamonds/mugabe/congo, sudan+rape, nigeria+church-burnings, milf. Your low paid heart will go out to these people, I'm sure, as long as it is allowed to beat.
#94
Ooooh...AntiSemite venturing deeply into Troll territory!
Her Mooooooslim boyfriend must be unhappy with the recent turn of events and has cut off her sexual favors.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/06/2004 17:16 Comments ||
Top||
#95
How is it when i see 93 to over hundred comments I know its either Aris or Anti-Idiot. :)
#96
" do not support terrorism especially State Terrorism as practiced by Israel and the USA. "
There you have in Anti twits own words.
In other words you support Muslems blowing-up busses,cutting off the heads of infidels,and flying passenger jets into skyscrapers.
Explain to me how you can be a Christian and not believe in the Holy Trinity.
The father,The Son,and the Holy Ghost.
#103
I have the impression that no-one is still talking about the original subject.
It is a fact that all over the world, as well in America as in Europe where I live, anti-islamism is growing at a high speed. Its quite terrifying to see that happening, certainly when this happens because of misinformation of the public. Many quotes out of the Koran are ripped out of their context and misinterpreted, there is a very strong focus on anything that is islamic. Certainly when it comes to small criminality. The image of the islam is mayorly deformed. I've visited many islamic countries in NGO-operations, and from my personal experience I can guarantee that most of the inhabitants over there are not as demonic as they are depicted by mainly american and/or republic press. The problem is the fact that there are many different types of moslims: sunites, sjiites,... of which only a few are radical jihadists.
In Belgium where I live, and in other European countries, there have recently been some attacks against jewish people (mostly sephardic jews). There have also been attacks against moslims in refugee-camps in our country. Many of these attacks have been investigated and turn out to be people's attacks against anything that is 'not like us'.
As a psychotherapist in our metropole Antwerp I have the occasion to encounter people of many origins and religions (jews, belgians, turkish, moslims, christians, albanians, serbo-kroats,... you name it) and most of the have the same problem: they can't get along with people who aren't like them, don't think like them, dress like them, live like them, have the same habits,... Calling this fascism is quite a bit childish and short-sighted. And it also hasn't got anything to do with zionism or jihadism. Those are terms which only apply for an isolated minority of complete idiots. The problem is more fundamental. Maybe you could call it 'proto-fascism', as Slavoj Žižek does, a reputed philospher/lacanian psychoanalyst/sociologist. Proto-fascism is something that lives in everyone of us, and serves our need to surviving and selfrespect. In some situations it can grow to completely fascistic proportions, no matter what race, nationality or religion you have. Mostly these fascistic tendencies seem to arise, as I can see it with my patients, when they have gotten used to the luxury of live and suddenly the economy is taking a free fall, and they are afraid to lose these luxuries again.
I guess this is correct for America as well as for Europe.
reading suggestion: Slavoj Žižek. Multiculturalism, or The Cultural Logic of Multinational Capitalism
New Left Review 225, Sept.-Oct., pp 28-51.
Greetings and good night!
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/06/2004 22:12 Comments ||
Top||
#104
well, that was interesting, but in denial
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 22:31 Comments ||
Top||
#105
And as for the article on top, I'm afraid it's not so incorrect: My mother, who is a native belgian and now has the american identity (and owns a belgian chocolate-shop in florida :-) ) is quite shocked by the way Americans treat muslims. She herself is a caucasian christioan, but whe've always learned to respect and tolerate other people. She's quite often witness of strongly irrational overreactions out of fear against muslims. Some people at the cash-desks offend muslims or anything that doesn't look white, or they don't want to be of service to them in the supermarket. A friend of hers, a person from india who didn't seem to have the right color and 'might have been a muslim' has been apprehended and she's been interrogated about her 'connection' with this 'possible terrorist'. Every time there's a hockey-match in the ice-rink where quite a lot of people meet, let's say, 10,000 at most ('might be a perfect target for a terrorist'), everyone is searched for weapons, and cops hold surveillance over the surrounding area, because 'from up that hill over there, well that might be a good spot to launch some mortar-bombs. You never now, maybe we should secure that part too...'.
Have Americans become completely paranoid?
At first sight it seem to be like that.
In belgium we're not so afraid: we've just had a gigantic rock fesival called Rock Werchter, 250,000 people from all over Europe united for 5 days of love, peace and music on a field just under the busiest flight-route of airplanes heading for our national airport. Do you think there was even the tiniest security measure? We just say: let's party and don't be afraid. In Spain, just the same mentality, even after those awful metro-bombings.
Just don't die of paranoia folks !
Send in the Haldoperidol ;-) (just kidding)
Finally goodnight
+tba
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/06/2004 22:33 Comments ||
Top||
#106
#104Â well, that was interesting, but in denial
Posted by: Frank G
what do you mean by this? I do know the word denial, but I'm wondering what part I'm denying. I also know that there are many problems with people of any nationality in any country, and I do recall the awful harm done by muslim-terrorists at 9/11, which cannot be excused. What part am I missing here ?
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/06/2004 22:36 Comments ||
Top||
#107
If you've followed the postings (and comments) here - there's no effort by muslim populations to disown the actions of their extremists, simply because the Quran allows, facilitates, and justifies the outrages. Ever heard of the Caliphate? Ivory Tower education I'd guess....prove me wrong, or accept the dhimmitude...ever heard that phrase?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 22:44 Comments ||
Top||
#108
We just say: let's party and don't be afraid.
Funny, they said the same thing in the Weimar Republic days .
From what I've seen, prior to 9/11 there was little to no anti-muslim prejudice in the States, in contrast to what I saw in Europe; rather, in general people were welcoming and curious, at least here in the Midwest. After 9/11, for example, my children's elementary school invited a representative of the local mosque to speak to the parents, at which time the rep. followed a brief but interesting history of Islam with a series of vicious lies about Jews and Israel.
Naturally, I was shocked by her words, and started doing some research. I discovered the website of MEMRI.org, which translates speeches/articles/op-eds, etc. from the Arabic. I started reading the Arab News (Saudi Arabia), the Daily Star (Lebanon), the Jerusalem Post (Israel), and revisited some of the newspapers I'd read when we lived in Frankfurt and Brussels.
As result of my reading I moved from shocked to appalled. These people -- not all of them, perhaps not even most, but enough -- not only actively wish us ill, but have been working for two decades to achieve it. 9/11 is only the most recent successful attack against the States, as 3/11 is the most recent against Europe. And, very few of the rest have publically risen up on their hind legs to denounce the violence, or the attitude that engenders such violence.
At the same time, while the majority of the Jewish population of France (ie the native Ashkenazis as well as the Sephardis) is either seriously considering, or actively working toward, moving out of the country, Jacques Chirac loudly denounced the possibility that France has an antisemitism problem -- its just that some denizens of the suburbs are working out their undertandible anger about the unresolved Palestine problem. Similarly, the tide of anti-American rhetoric has risen consistently across Western Europe, or perhaps like antisemitism it is now acceptable to say openly what has always been thought.
I suspect that my passage is fairly typical, given the number of hits Fred gets on this site every day. With a few trollish exceptions,the readers want to know what these people are saying amongst themselves when they don't think we are listening -- not to mention the helpful analysis of the resident experts.
July 4th as our Independence Day, and my family joined a crowd of perhaps 8,000 listening to Styx and watching the fireworks. Security guards did search all bags and coolers -- ostensibly for glass bottles -- and armed police officers circulated through the crowd. And, nothing bad happened.
Are we as a nation paranoid? Well, some really bad people declared war on us, and followed up that declaration with 9/11. We know from the number of arrests, here and throughout the world, that they are still trying. We know from the dead and injured bodies that they are succeeding, as well. So our approach can be more correctly described as realistic.
Those bad people did not just declare war on the U.S., though. They declared war against the entire western world -- where you live, too. And the Muslims in Antwerpen are not know for their gentle speech and manners. Perhaps holding large festivals without any precautions is not the wisest choice. 3/11 would be very easy to repeat under such conditions.
#110
Right on, trailling wife! Good questions. Alas, no easy answers.
Posted by: rex ||
07/07/2004 3:46 Comments ||
Top||
#111
* In reply to Frank G : I know what a caliphate is, and in reality it's nothing more than the name of a place where a muslim caliphe rules, such as cordoba, sevilla, bagdad, caïro,... The shiites want to unite all different muslims (and not the whole world) under one caliphe. I also do know the concept of dhimmitude, which is about the fact that once we'd be ruled muslims and would be living by the shari'a-lawsystem, we are allowed as non-muslim entities to develop strategies to survive and that we can have a certain political and social "protection". The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". It might seem to you that there's no effort by muslim populations to disown the actions of their extremists, but this is not always true. Maybe it's a local thing here, but belgian Imams preach against terrorism and the main opinion over here is the same. There are, of course, exceptions, such as Abu JahJah's AEL-party (Arabic-European League which is an official political party over here) who replied to the Vlaams Blok (a flemish right-extremist party who wants to kick muslims out of our country) that if we Belgians don't like it here, we should leave. This was said in order to show the Vlaams Blok that such things shouldn't be said and therefor he simply used the same rethoric. After that he asked the muslims to remain calm. But the main attitude by the muslim-community over here is against terrorism and Jihad. Even simple mathematics can be used to see that only a minority is pro-jihad: there are sunites, shiites, wahhabites (=> later splitted into different groups such as the taliban), the sufi, the druzi (lebanon), Assassins, the Fatimites, the Ismailites, and the Karmathians and a great deal of non-practisizing muslims in Indonesia, Turkey and Egypt, and a chines tao-form of the islam. It is a convention to treat the tolerant, anti-jihad Sunite Islam as the norm, because of the vast superiority of numbers of the Sunnites and the fast recognized by all non-Shiites (whether Moslem or no) that the Shiites have departed to an amazing degree from anything that can be considered the original Islam. Shiism has always lent itself in an extraordinary degree to bigotry and persecution of non-Shiites. We have 12 groups here, but only the shiites are pro-jihad. Sunni Muslims make up the majority (85%) of Muslims all over the world. Significant populations of Shiite Muslims can be found in Iran and Iraq, and large minority communities in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, and Lebanon. In short, this means that only a small minority of even less than 15% is pro-jihad, from which I dedect that there is no reason to be afraid of the majority of muslims in your country.
Furthermore, there are also as many interpretations of the Koran (or Quran) as there are splinter-groups. I say interpretations, since there are no words in the Quran (I've read the book since my wife is a muslim of origin, but doesn't believe in it.) that call up, allow, justify or facilitate outrages as you said. It's in the interpreations that the difference lies, and that where you'll find some justification.
On the other hand, there are many verses in the Quran which denounce terrorism. You can find some of them over here: Islam Denounces Terrorism
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/07/2004 6:21 Comments ||
Top||
#112
* In reply to trailing wife : I aknowledge the fact that there has always been an anti-islma prejuidice in Europe. I also know that there is an anti-semitism-problem. But the fact that there is an anti-semitic problem, doesn't mean, at least not in Europe here, that this anti-semitism comes from muslims. There are many fascistic groups in Europe who are against muslims as well as they are against jewish people, or any other nationality.
You said: At the same time, while the majority of the Jewish population of France (ie the native Ashkenazis as well as the Sephardis) is either seriously considering, or actively working toward, moving out of the country, Jacques Chirac loudly denounced the possibility that France has an antisemitism problem -- its just that some denizens of the suburbs are working out their undertandible anger about the unresolved Palestine problem.
Anti-semitism isn't 'just' a result of the palestine problem. This would be the same as telling that an anti-muslim attitude results from jews who are against muslims because of the same palestine problem. You simply can't blame muslims for all of the anti-semitism. Even followingany exsisting formal logical system can't prove this.
You also say: Similarly, the tide of anti-American rhetoric has risen consistently across Western Europe, or perhaps like antisemitism it is now acceptable to say openly what has always been thought.
This anti-american rethoric comes not only from muslims, but also from native Europeans for the simple reason that the US have violated NATO-conventions and because of the behaviour and diplomatic retardedness of Mr. Bush. In Europe, we aren't against Americans, it's just that we don't like Bush. We don't justify the attacks on your Twin-towers, but we also don't justify the attack on Iraq, since there was no real reason to do this, except for the money. (Visit this link about Carlyle for more information)
And this:July 4th as our Independence Day, and my family joined a crowd of perhaps 8,000 listening to Styx and watching the fireworks. Security guards did search all bags and coolers -- ostensibly for glass bottles -- and armed police officers circulated through the crowd. And, nothing bad happened.
The fact that nothing happend isn't linked to the fact that there was security. If nothing would have been planned to happen, and there were security precautions too, nothing would have happend either. Avoidance-behaviour may function as an enforcement-mechanism resulting that you will never stop taking security-measures, since you will never know that maybe nothing might have happened even without the precautions...
greets,
Wouter
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/07/2004 6:51 Comments ||
Top||
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/07/2004 7:38 Comments ||
Top||
#116
Mr. Black Albino,
Please read the article "A View from the Eye of the Storm" posted here: http://www.rantburg.com/page2.asp?D=7/7/2004#37372.
I would really like to know your opinion on it.
#117
A.L. Chappeau is RantBurgs man about town. A man with no fear who can dwell equally at Jihad Unspun or the Democratic Underground with equal ease. He reports back to us from time to time.
I had assumed it was you.... course you do would have to ask, if just to maintain cover.
#119
Hey, tu3031 -- TBA/Wouter knows waaaay more than Anti, and uses bigger words, too. So its much more likely that he is educable. However, Wouter has that charming Euro conceit that we are ignorant Americans who've never been anywhere, and therefore have no basis for comparison. After he's hung around for a few days, he'll get over that, and with luck he will join our illustrious roster of perceptive foreign correspondents.
Lieve Wouter! (I assume from the name that you are Vlaams rather than Walloon) -- what a thrill, I get again to practice the little Flemish I learned when we lived in Overijse. Mama is always amused, but then she speaks what she refers to as proper Nederlaanse from Amsterdam...
Please re-read my post more carefully. I did not write that either antisemitism or anti-Americanism come from the Muslims. In actual fact, in their current form both are European snobberies absorbed by the Muslims as part of their Western education. My point was actually that both attitudes appear now to be endemic in the native population.
You are of course correct that acting to prevent problems is not necessarily the reason problems do not happen. But contrariwise, not acting to prevent problems means that when the problems come, nothing will stop them from occurring. The American approach is to take preventative action, rather than to hope that what hasn't yet occurred will continue not to happen.
You might try this article as an intro to anti-Americanism current and historic. This will help you understand why phrases such as, "In Europe, we aren't against Americans, it's just that we don't like Bush." set our teeth on edge.
Welcome to Rantburg! May our exchanges result in learning for us all!
#121
I'll read the articles and postings later on, but I'd like to tell you guys that I believe I don't have "that charming Euro-conceit that we are ignorant Americans who've never been anywhere, and therefore have no basis for comparison.". I have been living in america for quite some time in the past, and I meet some great american people over here in belgium. Mostly ex-pats who like to gather in the cosy jazz-club L'Archiduc in Brussels and other ex-pat gathering-places, and I have met quite a lot of people who really arent ignorant and have seen more of the world than I did.
* Furthermore, I also meet a great deal of muslim-people and people from other religions, even those living in squats or on the streets, and it's always interesting to also hear their side of the story... seems funny... is that what your A.L. Chappeau (or is it Al Capone, capone means the same as Chappeau) does too? :-)
* I (hopefully) didn't say that you exactly said that antisemitism or anti-Americanism come from the Muslims, butit was inherent in the logic of the sentence you posted. Just wanted to clear that out...
* On the prevention thing: it is very necessary to prevent these things, but there's always a possibility of estimating the chances that an attack will occur. These terrorists seem to aim for symbolic places with lots of people around, mostly in countries where some political leader might do something for or against their (here I don't know the word in English, in Flemish it's "belangen", which means something like things that are important to them...). Therefor, Rock Werchter wasn't estimated as a risk-target.
* Who is Antiwar ?
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/07/2004 14:49 Comments ||
Top||
#124
Well, AntiJews, we find you tragic, really, because you're so deluded and pathetic and also you're the apologist troll of Evil.
The Muslim Caliphate of the Middle East is what should be dismantled and thanks to the great leadership of George W. Bush, along with his poodles Tony Blair, John Howard, Koziumi, Kwasniewski and Berlusconi, that is happening!
Posted by: Annie War ||
07/07/2004 15:18 Comments ||
Top||
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/07/2004 15:44 Comments ||
Top||
#128
TBA,
According to my Standaard and my Wolters', belangen means "importance, things that matter." The question is always, what matters to them, not to us? For instance, I never would have thought the World Trade Center or the Spanish trains important, which proves that I do not think like a jihadist (quite a comfort, actually!).
My Muslim friends, eg my daughter's godfather, can't enlighten me either, as they also do not think that way. And, despite my husband having spent years starting up factories throughout the Muslim world, he is unable to enlighten me either -- I suspect because it isn't considered good manners in that part of the world to explain to one's guest why and how much the neighbors hate him! His Arabic wasn't really good enough to eavesdrop on conversations in the street, either.
To recommend Africa to Americans as a model of social harmony without a hint of qualification is not just unserious, itâs hallucinatory. From my field experience in African countries in NGO-projects, I can fully agree with this sentence too... Africa is in fact a socio-economical ruin where you can't trust too many people. When they can use you, they'll be friendly, but don't turn your back to most of these people when they don't need you anymore, is my most important advise to Africa-travelers. They have a different social structure of tribes and chefs, and the official law-systmes don't count. The only law that counts is the decision of the village-chef. And they are very intolerant to other tribes. Of course there are also good things in Africa, and there are friendly people who are gratefull to anyone who offers some help, and of course it's fun to go BBQ'ing with some rich white people in South-Africa who live in overprotected neighborhoods where black people don't come, but telling that "the African way" is to be taken as an example is sheer lunacy.
But is there any good system? I've been living in Cuba for a year. One half in La Habana Vieja, and another six months in El Nicho. In Havana people have the same (food, drinks, 1 piece of soap every month, and a very low income of 10$ a month. They have a card for this (carta de raciones, don't know how to translate that, but it's a card which allows them to buy a limited quantity of different supplies, such as food, drinks,... and every time they receive something, it's indicated on the card, and they aren't allowed to receive more) as in El Nicho which is a remote mountain village 25 kilometers from "the rest of the world", and the only way to get there is a mud-road in which my car got stuck more than 10 times or so before I got there. It's a quite isolated place. But even there, they have the same carta de raciones, they have a tiny school, a small hospital, a doctor, one television with cable for the whole town in order to see Castro hold his speeches... Seems like it's Utopia over there... but there people don't knwo what happens in the rest of the world, and there is a very severe censorship in the press (only one state-published daily is allowed: Granma and even they have censorship. You'll only hear very biased news over there, there is a very big black market in anything that can be sold, and when they can they cheat you, or they are as corrupt as one can be. Farwell Utopia !
Guatemala then. Been living there for some time too, helping in a agricultural development project togehter with my wife who learned the small indians to count to 100 and learn some basic hygiene. Same problem as everywhere: censorship, no multilingualism, poverty, parochialism, interest in "entertaining western tv" when they could get hold of a TV... Not a good place either.
On the other hand, it seems true to me, but I don't claim it to be a truth, that America is more a society of the individual, and not so much a society which cares for the total of individuals... Also, some lack of interest in the (I don't know the word in english here, maybe you'll understand when I call it bottom-sources or ground sources) and the time these will last... But that can be said of Belgium too. It's been calculated that if the whole planet would have our way and standard of living of Belgium or america, our planet would become a unlivable trashbelt within 15 years...
Some conclusions: I understand the mechanism of anti-americanism, but I don't think it's a good thing. People should look at their own faults before they look at someone else's...
P.S.: One nice historical note. I don't know the exact numbers, but in World War II, D-Day, the Americans had something of an estimated casualty-rate of 2500 americans / day for 6 days. Some people here state that the WWII is actually won because of psychopath Stalin who had 2500 russions/day dying for a period of 4 years or so at the so-called east-front, which resulted in the fact that Hitler concentrated/spent to much of his "powers" at the east-front... How some cruelties may have a good end. Sad but true...
P.P.S.: on the topic of Antiwar: there might be some truth in what she/he says, i've read some postings of this person... but it's the style and the one-sided quite naïve vision that does it: even the good guys have their bad sides. Just don't forget that. Ernesto Che Guevarra, Camillio Cienfuegos and Fidel Castro might seem saints, and are depicted like that in El Museo de la Revolucion in Havana, but they aren't. Even though they fought for a good cause, they were women-rapists and babyslayers as well. And they also shot quite a lot of innocent people as well as people who fought together with them.
The pure white of virtue is never white, there are always black and red stains...
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/09/2004 7:22 Comments ||
Top||
#130
On the article: "A view from the eye of the storm"
In spite of my ideals I feel quite obliged to agree with this article. The four pilars which are stated in it (suicide-killers, words, money and the complete breaking of rules) are indeed a fact.
Then two questions come to my mind: A)cause? B) solution? .
A)I don't think one defenitive cause can be pointed out. The stated inner circle consists mainly of the minority of Shiites who are pro-jihad. I have experienced a strane fact some time ago: many muslims don't know wehter they are shiites or sunnites. Most of the time you can simply ask the who they follow: the famaily or the prophet or the killer of the prophet Mohammed, and then you can know wether they or respectively shiites or sunnites. But they don't really seem to know it themselves. They believe there is one Koran. This gives rise to the problem of the inner and outer circles as stated in the article: the inner circle is controlled by shiites, and because of the one Koran, as they think it exsists, forgetting all the different versions and interpretations, they hold togehter in one unified muslim-front, which makes that even peacefull sunnites support in one way or another, even if it's only by ommission, the terrorists. Then there are many other factors: poverty, inciting text indeed, and great illiteracy which makes they can't read an form a personal opinion but have to listen to the local town-inciters...
B) I know this isn't a solution, but I want to cite Derrida: "Sometimes a democratic system must break it's own idealistic rules from time to time in order to preserve the democracy." I truely belive this. Problem is that sometimes this "breaking of laws" is over the top and cannot be justified...
Posted by: The Black Albino ||
07/09/2004 7:54 Comments ||
Top||
#131
I am getting sick and tired of just hearing from a few members of the Muslim faith with the recognition that the terriorist are not following the Allah or the Quran. Where are all the Muslim leaders and why are they not talking to the press and humanity about the atrocisities of the Muslim Terriorists. We need some real action from the Muslim leaders. Their NON action is almost as dispicable as the atrossities we have happening all over the world.
Come on guys (and gals) let's see some action for the real side of Allah.
Posted by: Bill Eldridge ||
10/22/2004 11:44 Comments ||
Top||
#141
Trailing wife I consider your remarks as beneath contempt.You have been brainwashed (God knows how your brain is obviously very tiny)I refuse to become a Zionist GWB supporter. A supporter of a Government that invades a nation under false pretences.
Mucky interesting,however I don't think its true
#143
Trailing wife I don't know my IQ. However I can remember whole scenes from movies after seeing them once for example.
Anne; Nicholas
Nicholas Huh what?
Anne Look.
N Why have you opened the curtains?
A It wasn't me
N Who was it then?
a It was Victor.
The Others (Nicole Kidman Alakina Mann etc)
#144
Zenster let me assure you I never have hated Jews. However I am opposed to Zionism as a policy who's aim is to turn Judaism from a religion to a Political entity. I know there have been Arabs who supported Hitler. However many did and do not. The Zionists also collaborated with the Nazis (I am not making this up go to Jewsagainstzionism.com;a Jewish website which will confirm) and helped caused the death of millions of Jews. I do not support terrorism especially State Terrorism as practiced by Israel and the USA. Examples Israel demolition of Palestinian homes,the killing of Mohammed Al Dura (age 13);the USA ,the bombing of the Al Amariyah shelter 2/13/1991 during the last war ,the current invasion of Iraq.
#145
Bomb-a-rama yes it can be useful as can do it at will so can play a movie in my head when in a tedious situation like being in a long queue.If I'm to be kept waiting why be bored as well.
Cingold didn't know you are from Indonesia. I do not understand a word however I can picture the actual words i.e can picture the comments piece you wrote.
I thought you were American don't know why.
#146
Jules I do not support any religion being turned into a nationalistic entity whether it be Islam Judaism or Christianity. So yes wrong for Jews and Muslims and Christians. States should always be basically Secular.Bin Laden is bad news in my book. It may be noted that Bin Laden did not approve of Saddam and vice versa.
#147
Well I don't force anyone to reply I just state what is true. Israel may be secular but it is still Zionist. Iraq under Saddam was Secular too.It wasn't an Islamic State like Saudi Arabia.
#149
Anon4617 I care for people with severe and profound intellectually disabilities. Most cannot walk, speak,or fend for themselves or in most cases even think for themselves. It is my paid job but the pay is low compared to the valuable job I have taking care of our most helpless and vulnerable citizens
#151
SOME PIGFUCKING DOG HAS STOLEN MY NAME,I DID NOT WRITE THAT ABOUT THE BURQA. WHOEVER YOU ARE MAY YOUR HEART BE RIPPED OUT AND FED TO A PACK OF RABID DOGS
#155
Just to let you know don't give a shit if my comments MINE NOT THE HIJACKER'S WHO STOLE MY NAME are deleted. HERE'S ONE FOR YOU SADDAM HUSSEIN IS THE LEGAL AND RIGHTFUL PRESIDENT OF IRAQ WHETHER GWB AND HIS COLLABORATORS LIKE IT OR NOT.
#156
Hi Black Albino I'm Antiwar,I believe that the invasion of Iraq was based on lies and should never have happened. I also believe that the Zionist state should be dismantled and replaced with a State wher Jews and Muslims live in peace.
Most of my comments have been deleted but you can read them if you go to Sink Trap
The Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) on Tuesday warned the United States forces who would be participating in a small-scale Philippines-US war games in Central Mindanao not to touch the group to prevent skirmishes. MILF spokesman Eid Kabalu told Today in a telephone interview that the Front has no plan to disrupt this monthâs joint RP-US military exercises to train Filipino soldiers against terrorists belonging to the al-Qaeda linked Jemaâah Islamiyah. âIf they [US forces] will not enter our [perimeter], we assure them that there would be no skirmish. We have a directive to our troops in the area to remain in a defensive position while the training is going on,â he pointed out. Carmen is a known bailiwick of the Moro rebels. âThe Philippine government and [our group] have an existing cease-fire agreement. We hope that the participants in the military exercises will observe the agreement,â Kabalu stressed.
Defense Secretary Eduardo Ermita said the military exercise, involving 20 US Special Forces from Okinawa, Japan, and 160 Filipino soldiers, will be held in Carmen town in North Cotabato province starting July 26 and will last for three weeks. North Cotabato Gov. Emmanuel Piñol, a known critic of the rebel group, has given assurance that the exercises will not target members of the MILF in the area. Kabalu said the Moro rebels has about a thousand fighters operating in Carmen alone. âWe push and support the holding of a small-scale Balikatan there [Carmen] because it will be a great help to our soldiers,â Piñol said.
At the same time, outgoing Armed Forces vice chief of staff Lt. Gen. Rodolfo Garcia expressed confidence that the conduct of the RP-US joint military exercise in Carmen town will not affect the scheduled resumption of peace negotiations between the government and the separatist MILF.
Garcia issued the statement even as he said that US troops participating in the military exercises will be confined only to the 200-hectare training site in the town. The site houses the camp of the Armyâs 602nd Brigade. âGoing outside of that training site will be a violation of the terms of reference [for the Americans],â Garcia said. Garcia, who is scheduled to retire today as he reaches the mandatory retirement age of 56, is the head of the governmentâs Coordinating Committee in the Cessation of Hostilities (CCCH). He said he will continue to be involved in the peace process with the rebels even after his retirement. Garcia said the training will not involve actual operations. âIt can be a classroom-oriented type of exercise only,â he said. âItâs only a special operations exercises. Part of that will be life-saving exercise, communications training, medical exercise, particularly treating the wounded so that they will not die before they reach the hospital.â Garcia added. Besides Carmen, American soldiers will also carry out exercises this year in military camps in Zamboanga City.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 1:34:07 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
(--insert misc. hot mom related comment here--)
Posted by: Chris W. ||
07/06/2004 17:26 Comments ||
Top||
The United States said on Tuesday it remained deeply concerned about terrorist training camps in the southern Philippines run by militants with links to the Al Qaeda network. US ambassador Francis Ricciardone said the camps on Mindanao island were run by Jemaah Islamiyah, the group blamed for the 2002 bombings on the Indonesian island of Bali and other attacks across Southeast Asia. âWith respect to the Philippines we remain very concerned at the presence of training camps of the Jemaah Islamiyah,â he told the Foreign Correspondents Association in Manila. He said groupâs activities on Mindanao, where Muslim rebels have been fighting an anti-government insurgency for decades, posed a threat not only to the Philippines but to the wider region. âWhen you train someone in Mindanao to device bombs and how to plant them, that becomes a threat and itâs not limited just to the immediate neighborhood where that person was trained,â Ricciardone said. âThey can go throughout the Philippines, throughout Southeast Asia, throughout the world, and murder people. So it is a continuing threat.â
The ambassador said JI had been able to set up shop in the southern Philippines because of the weak rule of law in the area. Filipino Defence Secretary Eduardo Ermita says the authorities estimate there were still around 40 Jemaah Islamiyah militants in the Mount Cararao region of central Mindanao. He says most of them are Indonesians who are training local Muslims. Six suspected Filipino JI members were arrested in southern Manila last week after police foiled what they described as a plot to bomb the June 30 inauguration of President Arroyo. Ricciardone said terrorist funds were flowing across borders and he said there was a direct link to the Philippines from the Middle East. âWe know that there are at least ideological links and personal links from here to the Middle East, from Mindanao to the Middle East,â he said. âThere are personal connections, family connections, (they) travel back and forth and they are quite worrisome.â He said local groups drew inspiration, as well as sometimes weaponry and funding, from international terrorist organisations. The US government announced this week that it was sending small numbers of troops to Mindanao to give Filipino troops counter-terrorist training. About 1,000 US special forces troops were deployed in the south in 2002. Ricciardone also expressed disappointment at the failure of the new MILF leadership to resume peace talks with the Philippine government.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 8:25:17 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Asian governments were warned yesterday to prepare for possible deadly chemical attacks by terrorist groups, such as the al-Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiah (JI). The warning came at a conference here, attended by more than 70 chemical weapons experts, security officials and policy-makers from 12 countries including Japan, China, Canada, the United States, Singapore and Thailand. âThere is a growing concern of the potential threat posed by chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear weapons (CBRN) in the hands of terrorists,â said Zainal Abidin Zain, director-general of the South-East Asia Regional Centre for Counter-terrorism. âAmong all of the CBRN weapons, chemical weapons are potentially the easiest to be manufactured.â Terrorism expert Rohan Gunaratna, head of the Singapore-based International Centre for Political Violence and Terrorism Research, is slated to talk on a âRecently Recovered Jemaah Islamiah Chem-Bio Manualâ during the five-day seminar.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/06/2004 12:38:56 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Abu Musab Zarqawi, the most-wanted terrorist in Iraq, has staked his claim to lead the jihad against the American presence by releasing a slickly produced video of suicide bombers and several of their attacks. The hour-long production is part political manifesto, part recruiting campaign and part propaganda to tell the United States that its intense efforts to find the Jordanian-born militant leader have been a failure. In recording the bombings, Zarqawi's organization, Tawhid wal Jihad ("Unity and Holy War"), shows it knows how to manipulate the Western media. The footage was given to Time magazine's Baghdad bureau chief, Michael Ware, by men reported to be in close contact with Zarqawi's network. Mr. Ware said the video "is a very, very sophisticated part of Zarqawi's information campaign, stamping him as the star of the new global jihad inspired by Osama bin Laden."
Zarqawi's outfit can film a promotional video while operating under fire in Iraq. Osama bin Laden is supposed to be sitting safe in tribal regions of Pakistan and we get nothing about current events from him. Sez to me that Binny has been dead for some time and Zarqawi wants the gold turban. Yes, I know that he's not part of the Saudi Master Race, maybe he doesn't think that should stop him.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 9:42:23 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Whatâs telling about this story is that they are FOREIGN fighters and NOT Iraqis. If there was such a ground swell against the U.S. (as reported dutifully by the LLL press) in Iraq wouldnât you think that they would have Iraqi Jihadis lined up around the corner? No they have to go to other countries to find some poor downtrodden kid and recruit them. I notice that the U.S. has started attacking âsafeâ houses in Fullujah and other cities in the Sunni Triangle. Sounds like the Iraqis are getting a little tired of these people and giving them up.
Bingo! An Arab journalists few days ago, made a comment about the Arab Press calling those terrorists "Iraqi insurgents", when it should have been obvious to any native arabic speaker, that the "insurgents" were from the Nadj region of Saudi Arabia. Needless to say that the "insurgents" spoke a dialect only heard in that region.
#4
tu - Mebbe Dan can ask him what set him off, y'know, sent him to the extreme... it was prolly #3... and now that he's a star, he only takes her calls when he tires of the 'strange'...
#5
The hour-long production is part political manifesto, part recruiting campaign and part propaganda to tell the United States that its intense efforts to find the Jordanian-born militant leader have been a failure.
The man in the soundproof broadcast booth wearing headphones and an intense gaze is discussing Saudi Arabian history with radio listeners this evening, but itâs not the kind the Saudi government would endorse.
Saad Faqih recites a list of "massacres and assassinations" that he alleges were carried out by the late Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud, modern Saudi Arabiaâs first king, in his rise to power nearly 100 years ago. Then Faqih pauses to take calls from listeners phoning in from his homeland to offer their own impassioned accounts of the royal familyâs alleged transgressions.
Really long but really good, much more at the link.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:37:08 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
WASHINGTON â American and Iraqi joint patrols, along with U.S. Special Operations teams, captured two men with explosives in Baghdad on Monday who identified themselves as Iranian intelligence officers, FOX News has confirmed.
Senior officials said it was previously believed that Iran had officers inside Iraq stirring up violence, but this is the first time that self-proclaimed Iranian intelligence agents have been captured within the country.
The Defense officials also confirmed to FOX News that in recent days there has been significant success in tracking down "known bad guys" based on information from local citizens.
Posted by: Mike ||
07/06/2004 11:10:57 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Whoa, buddy. Let's hear what the blackhats have to say about that. It's the Jooooooooooooooooos fault. It's a conspiracy by Bush (No. That's what the Democraps will say).
A serviceman died in Chechnya as a result of a military collision between two Russian Defense Ministry units early Tuesday morning, the Russian Information Agency Novosti reported. The incident occurred at about 2:30 a.m. near the Tsa-Vedeno residential area, after a failure to coordinate their activities led to a skirmish between the two units, a military source told the news agency. A special commission has been created to investigate the units and the incident. In a separate incident Monday, an officer was kidnapped from his home by about 30 reportedly camouflaged Chechen gunmen in the Urus Martan region, Interfax reported, citing the regional administration.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 10:14:21 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Algerian authorities said for the first time on Tuesday that a blast at an electricity plant in Algiers last month was a car bomb, the first attack of its kind in Algeria since the mid-1990s. Islamist militants from the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), Algeriaâs top rebel group with links to al Qaeda, had claimed responsibility for the June 21 attack in which 11 people were injured. The government had until now said it was too early to say what caused the huge blast. The explosion "was caused by a terrorist attack with a car bomb," national police chief Ali Tounsi said.
Last monthâs blast alarmed Western diplomats because of the apparent ability of militants to penetrate the heavily guarded capital and attack an energy installation. Tounsi, who was speaking at a news conference, did not name the group that carried out the attack, the first of its kind in the country since the mid-1990s at the height of an Islamic militant insurrection. He said security forces would be reinforced in the capital with an extra 500 men.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 10:10:14 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
Relevant excerpt:
Saddamâs defense team aimed to drag out his planned trial and pressure Iraqi judges in the hope the U.N. would intervene and appoint other magistrates, one of his lawyers said. "Our work will be to ensure this court does not function, that it is paralyzed as long as possible," Frenchman Emmanuel Ludot, back in Paris after a meeting with Saddamâs defense team in Jordan, told reporters.
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 10:19:15 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
I think you mean "Saddamâs lawyers seek injustice for Iraqi people"
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/06/2004 23:21 Comments ||
Top||
Arab countries, including Libya, are contributing to a legal defence fund for toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, a French lawyer said. Emmanuel Ludot, the French lawyer serving as part of a 21-member legal team set up to defend Saddam, said that "diverse aid and diverse gifts" have already been donated. He refused to specify how much money had been collected so far or reveal its origins, except to say that some Arab countries have contributed and that the daughter of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, a lawyer who recently joined the committee, has offered some financing. Gadhafiâs eldest daughter, Aicha Moammar Gadhafi, "wanted to provide her logistic and financial aid," Ludot said. "Itâs Libyan money. Itâs welcome."
He said funds that Saddam is alleged to hold in overseas accounts also could be used in his defence. "Our job is to have this money freed up ... so that we can face all the expenses," Ludot said at a news conference in Paris. "I donât despair that we can find someone in the United States to try to negotiate this." He added that the money in the lawyersâ fund was "obviously completely clean." The lawyer said it was not possible to become "Don Quixotes of justice," working for nothing and assuming expenses individually, especially considering how long the trial might take. Ludot said the committee hopes to extend proceedings as much as possible. "They told us the trial would be long, complicated, that it would take two years. I donât know," Ludot said, citing Salem Chalabi, general director of the Iraqi court. "Our work will be to do things in a way so that this tribunal doesnât function, so that it is paralysed for as long as possible," he added.
He reiterated earlier denunciations of the judges who are to try Saddam and predicted that, as things stand, the trial would be unfair. The lawyersâ committee wants to see Iraqi judges as well as judges designated by the United Nations. Ludot cited the UN-sponsored war crimes court in Sierra Leone as a model of how Saddam should be tried. The trial of rebel military commanders accused in a 10-year campaign for control of Sierra Leone opened Monday. The committee is led by Jordanian lawyer Mohammed Rashdan, who says he was hired by Saddamâs wife Sajida and two daughters. Ludot said Saddam should choose his own lawyers, but he has been barred from any contact with the outside world. Saddam was formally handed over to the interim Iraqi government on Thursday. However, the US occupying forces are overseeing his detention. The secret detention site is not far from the Baghdad airport, Ludot said without elaborating.
#1
well shoot, how about we Paypal for the rope they hang his dictator-ness with?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 19:40 Comments ||
Top||
#2
He said funds that Saddam is alleged to hold in overseas accounts also could be used in his defence. "Our job is to have this money freed up ... so that we can face all the expenses," Ludot said at a news conference in Paris... The lawyer said it was not possible to become "Don Quixotes of justice," working for nothing and assuming expenses individually, especially considering how long the trial might take. Ludot said the committee hopes to extend proceedings as much as possible. ... "Our work will be to do things in a way so that this tribunal doesnât function, so that it is paralysed for as long as possible," he added.
Typical trial lawyer plan to extend the trial until the clients funds are completely exhausted. These parasites should not be allowed to be paid from Saddam's stashed loot.
#3
Any chance the Iraqi public is aware of this? Make sure they know fully of their Arab brethren's efforts to defend their former oppressor. I'm sure that'll be received well.
#4
The idiot despot should be limited to a small defense team paid a small lump sum. Ludot should be the focus of Iraq's effort to locate stolen loot and repatriate it. All of this info should be widely disseminated in Iraq -- especially the help for the idiot despot from brother Arabs. The trial should showcase the atrocities and genocide in graphic detail, and every minute of it carried without commentary, C-SPAN style, by al-Hurrah.
And most importantly, Judge Lance Ito should NOT be assigned to the case.
#5
BAR, I don't know about Iraqis generally, but the boys at Iraq the Model piss on their fellow Arabs pretty regularly. "Thanks for all the help, guys."
Posted by: Matt ||
07/06/2004 21:57 Comments ||
Top||
#6
"diverse aid and diverse gifts" have already been donated.
Goats? Sheep? Did they set up donation cans in the Paleo metal shops? Yasser sends good thoughts and best wishes?
#7
This is to be expected -- it is in the self-interest of every dictator in the ME, and that's a shitload of shitheads, to see to it that deposed dictators are treated well. Death, no matter how much blood is on their hands, can't be an acceptable end... Heh. Wrong, 'tards. You're all coming down, sooner or later, and sooner by your own choice is better for your health.
#5
"We are ready to begin again. But when I called my superiors, we were told to stay quiet for the time being," Amar al-Saadi told the Star yesterday. "If they tell us to fight, we fight. We do not like this interim government. If we are given the word, al-Mahdi is capable of bringing 250,000 fighters against them. We can eliminate this government in three days. That is all we need. But our leaders must decide. ....Abdel Rahman al-Shouwely, a spokesman for al-Madhi Army headquarters in the sprawling suburb of Sadr City, attributed the weekend threats to "a fake Mahdi message." "None of it is true. We want quiet with the Americans. We don't want to give them an excuse to cut away the moves toward sovereignty."... "Think of us as you would think of John Kerry in America. We are the opposition. In Iraq, there is room for an opposition now."
Big talk for a group almost shot out of existence the last time they tried to fight. The question is whether or not Alawi decides their blather constitutes a reason to stomp them out of existence. A different question is whether or not this is what Kerry meant by saying foreign leaders preferred him to Bush.
The woman who signs herself "antiwar" pegged my digital trollmeter this afternoon, and so I've blinged her comments. The final straw was her cursing out someone who was allegedly using her sig. She's outta control. I've been pretty patient with her, as has Fred and Steve Y, since every weblog needs a chew toy, but the comments section today was looking more and more like a Usenet forum, and lordy knows we don't need that.
As for all the regulars, c'mon -- we don't need to spend Fred's money on antiwar's scattered-brained approach to peace, love and ridding the world of the Zionists.
As always, Fred will ever-so-gently whack correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/06/2004 6:43:18 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
*cough* ahem.....I'm sorrrry :-(
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 19:03 Comments ||
Top||
#2
bye antiwar! you are now have more time go door knocking! i am think of you next time i am see watchtower magazine. ima bet you hot underneath you burka. :)
#4
No skin off my fore. I usually ignore her comments.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/06/2004 19:47 Comments ||
Top||
#5
"every weblog needs a chew toy"
I think that would be a very good banner message for Rantburg- a lot better than that "oderous dumb mutant" thing that pops up every so often.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
07/06/2004 20:05 Comments ||
Top||
#6
Thanks, Steve!
Posted by: Jen ||
07/06/2004 20:32 Comments ||
Top||
#7
That whole rant was so weird, I was thinking there should be a pentalty box or pentalty due's owed for as crazy as it got or gets. I am no friend of censorship and I too am guilty of being kinda weird at times with my rants (pig and goat fuckers excluded), but needless to say, that Antiwar was one dizzy bitch or what the hell "it" was.
#13
Sorry, the more I've read about mass graves the less silly her stupidity came to me. Her gig was becoming the Internationale as sung by KC and the Sunshine Band for me. I'll try to just walk on by the next pet troll. Debating her was as useless as filleting a gerbil with a bowie knife.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 22:07 Comments ||
Top||
#14
Farewell Zionazi's I am deleting this crap from my favourites atraight into the recycle bin which shall be emptied and replacing it with VOICES OF PALESTINE.
#15
Well, I'd asked for a 'time out' for her a month or so back, figuring she'd take the hint and use a more intelligent approach. Call me Pollyanna and call it Evolution by Steve (tm)
Posted by: Mike ||
07/06/2004 23:06 Comments ||
Top||
#17
Ima sure that Mucky was referring to temperature, Mike.....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/06/2004 23:34 Comments ||
Top||
#18
: - 0 but . . but . . . I used to have so much fun watching Antiwar(s) "reveal" their true intentions. Oh well. Guess I'll get over it. LOL tu30301!
#21
Farewell Zionazi's I am deleting this crap from my favourites atraight into the recycle bin which shall be emptied and replacing it with VOICES OF PALESTINE.
THE staggering heroism of five British soldiers as they helped rout more than a HUNDRED Iraqi rebels is revealed for the first time today by The Sun. The men came to the rescue of ambushed comrades â saving their lives with the Armyâs first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.
After a bloody battle which raged for four hours at least 28 of the enemy lay dead. Fleeing cohorts are thought to have dragged away at least the same number of bodies. Just two of Our Boys were slightly wounded. Last night the brave troops â members of the same regiment as the private tipped for a Victoria Cross â told of the desperate fight. Private Anthony Rushforth, 23, said: âWe were pumped up on adrenaline â proper angry. Itâs only afterwards you think, âJesus, I actually did thatâ.â
The terrifying bayonet charge by the members of the Princess of Walesâs Royal Regiment â nicknamed The Tigers â saw trench after trench taken from the enemy. It was led by Sgt Major Dave Falconer, 36. He said of his men: âI am very proud of them.â
The other heroes were Sgt Chris Broome, 35, and privates John-Claude Fowler, 19 and Matthew Tatawaqa, 23. The men, from C Company, raced to the rescue in Warrior armoured vehicles after an ambush by rebels loyal to rogue Shiâite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Two Land Rovers transporting Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders had been pinned down by heavy fire south of Al Amarah, 150 miles from Basra.
As the Warriors arrived, they too were targeted by machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and small arms. Sgt Major Falconer, from Portsmouth, said: âOur Warriors were vulnerable to attack from the side by the enemy hiding in ditches. âThe only way you can hold ground in that situation is by having boots on it â so thatâs what we did.â That is military-speak for sending in infantry. Private Rushforth, from Southampton, said: âWhen the order came to dismount and attack, it was just like what weâve done dozens of times in training.
âWe sprinted in ten-metre bursts, then hit the ground to put down some rounds, and then carried on again for the last 30 metres. We broke into pairs and finished off the trench.â
The fight was dubbed the Battle for Danny Boy â after the name of the remote checkpoint where it took place.
FIRST Sgt Maj Falconerâs men defied enemy fire to charge 200 metres across open land. They leapt into the first trench, killing three enemy with SA80 rifle bullets and âcold steelâ. Four were taken prisoner. THEN they took two further trenches as the Warriors provided covering fire from chain guns and 30mm cannon. Eight more enemy were killed and four surrendered. Diehard rebels continued to hold out. FINALLY a Challenger II tank was summoned to blitz their bunker. The five were hailed heroes along with a sixth soldier Lance Corporal Brian Wood. He has since been posted back in Britain.
The last time the Army used bayonets in action was when Scots Guards assaulted Argentinian positions in 1982. Sgt Maj Falconer said: âThe lads performed excellently and with the highest professionalism.â It was 5 of them! Donât screw around with the Welsh.
#2
Sadr's boys make me think of my own Cleveland Cavaliers during Michael Jordan's heyday. In almost every poster of Michael Jordan flying through the air for a mega-dunk, Cavalier guard, Wayne Ehlo is prominently featured. (He's the sandy-haired white guy who looks befuddled.) In this war, the Mahdi Army has become the Washington Generals.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 22:21 Comments ||
Top||
July 6, 2004: Iraqâs interim government sees foreign interference as the major cause of current security problems. There is al Qaeda leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, from Jordan. While Jordan is a friend of Iraq, many Jordanians are not. Al-Zarqawi is seen as particularly nasty, because his suicide bombs have killed hundreds of Iraqis, and few foreigners. But the Iraqis are making a major stink about interference from Iran and Syria. Iran has always considered itself the âleaderâ of Shia Moslems world-wide (even though the chief Shia holy places are in Iraq.) Worse, conservative Shia clerics in Iran have a stranglehold on the Iranian government, and use their control of the Iranian security services and military to bankroll Iraqi Shia leaders who would support an Islamic republic in Iraq. But most Iraqi Shia are not interested in an Islamic republic. This makes Iranian interference doubly unpopular. Syriaâs Baath Party has a decades old feud with the Iraqi Baath Party over who would control the party. Moreover, the Baath Party was originally conceived as an organization that would unite all Arab nations in a secular empire. But at the moment, Syria appears to want democracy to fail in Iraq, lest Syrians get ideas of deposing the Syrian Baath Party.
In the last week, there have been four American bombing attacks on terrorist âsafe housesâ in Fallujah. These attacks are being made with the approval of the interim Iraqi government, and apparently via information obtained using government contacts inside Fallujah. Meanwhile, inside Fallujah, there is an ugly competition growing between al Qaeda, Islamic fundamentalist, and Baath Party factions. There have been some confrontations between these groups, and it is feared that the various militant factions will be fighting each other before long.
And the problem with that is?
#2
This will be a problem for al Jazeera. What will they do when they are invited by their friends to watch an ambush of their buddies? These guys don't have the same restraint as the US military. Could be a win for us if the al Jazeera body count starts to rise.
#6
Fallujah will be one of the big security issues that the new government will face. For Allawi's govt to survive, the factions (al Q, Saudi, Syrian, Iranian, ex Baathist, etc etc) will have to be neutralized and/or eliminated. This is going to be an awkward process. I hope that Allawi climbs on the steep learning curve and does not get thrown. He will have to deal with ammo dump mosques, and I imagine that there will be a lot of behind the scenes trades and such as the arabs do their business. I am cautiously optimistic. Al Jazeera needs some heat for the actions that they take. Again, something may come behind the scenes. If we took out some of those so-called cameramen, then it would be an anti-arab thing. If the new govt can handle it, then so much the better.
We must keep in mind that this transition to a secular or somewhat secular and independent Iraq is one tall order, and a success will reap great rewards for the US, as well as much of the world, whether they realize or admit it or not.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/06/2004 16:01 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Let me see.... We back-off from Fallujah (knowing that the Jehadniks are there), but are still on the outskirts with 2 Marine Regiments and a M1 Battalion... Hmmmm. And now, Fallalujah in Jehad Central Station. It almost sounds like a trap.
Naw, Cowboys NEVER use traps against the bad guys, no?
#8
There have been some confrontations between these groups, and it is feared that the various militant factions will be fighting each other before long.
Good. Instead of expending U.S. ammo killing sundry Fallujah terrorists, money can be saved by allowing them to kill each other off with their own bullets.
This is just getting bizarre ...
Chadian rebels blamed Libya on Tuesday for blocking the handover to Algeria of a north African Islamist militant wanted for kidnapping 32 European tourists last year. In a deal with Chadian rebels trying to rid themselves of Algerians with ties to al Qaeda, Libya agreed to take custody of the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) militants and its figurehead Amari Saifi. Libya was then to pass them to an unnamed Western country, which would in turn hand them to Algeria to face prosecution. Movement for Democracy and Justice in Chad (MDJT) rebels transferred two militants -- not including Saifi -- to Libyan intelligence agents on June 25 as a first step in the process but the Chadians say Tripoli has retained custody of the pair. "Libya failed to hand them over to a Western nation so we canât now hand over the rest," said Paris-based MDJT spokesman Abubakar Rajab. "As usual Libya is playing games and we must now restart our efforts."
Or perhaps Libya is "questioning" them for the "Western nation"?
A Libyan government minister denied the claim by the Chadian rebels.
"Who you gonna believe, us or some guys named Chad?"
Algerian authorities have remained mum on the issue.
"mmmmmuuuuuummmmmm"
Libyan Public Order Minister Naser Al-Mabrouk Abdallah said Libyan troops killed two Algerian Islamist guerrillas as they tried to escape infiltrate into its territory from Chad 10 days ago. He identified the two Algerians, whom he did not name, as GSPC members and said a Libyan soldier was wounded in the clash.
"Libya has the bodies of the two killed GSPC members but did not arrest any other member of that group," Abdallah said.
Funny how Chad rebels say they handed over two GSPC prisoners and Libya just happens to have two dead GSPC guys. Not connected, I'm sure.
Rajab denied a report in French weekly newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche that Libya had captured GSPC rebels in Chad and uncovered a GSPC camp there.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 1:31:16 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
To our more worldly Rantburgians-lately it has sounded like the only sane folks in north Africa are Chadians and maybe some Egyptians. Is the rosy spotlight being shown on Chad accurate, historically? IF they are the one sane government in north Africa, is our government doing anything to deepen relations with Chad?
A suicide bomber exploded a car in the middle of a funeral gathering in an Iraqi town north of Baghdad on Tuesday, killing six people and wounding 35. The blast in Khalis, some 80 km (50 miles) north of Baghdad, was the bloodiest guerrilla attack in Iraq since an interim government took charge from U.S.-led occupiers on June 28. A senior police commander was among those wounded in the attack on the funeral for the brother of the townâs mayor, police said. Tents had been erected in the street to shelter mourners paying condolences to the manâs family. "A suicide bomber drove right into the funeral gathering and his car exploded," said witness Ghassan Sabah Kadhem.
Prime Minister Iyad Allawiâs government said it would unveil a new security law on Wednesday for wider powers to combat guerrillas, an announcement that has been delayed several times. Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari said on Monday the law would empower the government to impose curfews, set up checkpoints and search and detain suspects. The measures would be temporary and would apply only in parts of Iraq. "The people of Iraq will not tolerate terrorist groups or those who collaborate with any other foreign fighters such as the Zarqawi network to continue their wicked ways," he said.
Hospital sources said women and children were among the casualties in the raid, the fifth such strike on Falluja in three weeks and the first since the June 28 handover. Allawi wants to enlist Iraqi opinion against Zarqawi, but openly supporting U.S. air strikes is risky. Many Iraqis are angered by Zarqawiâs tactics, but few are convinced U.S. raids kill only foreign militants, rather than Iraqi civilians. Rooters, being omniscient, knows this as a matter of course ...
U.S. patrols came under fire in Falluja and Ramadi, another Sunni Muslim city west of Baghdad, witnesses said. The U.S. military had no word on those attacks, but it said three marines were killed in action in western Iraq on Monday.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 1:28:06 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Many Iraqis are angered by Zarqawiâs tactics, but few are convinced U.S. raids kill only foreign militants, rather than Iraqi civilians.
Instinctive badmouthing of U.S. actions without stopping to question terrorist tactics of concealing their activities among the general population is the desired effect. The sooner the ignorant Iraqi gets this and changes their tune accordingly, the sooner their country will be cleaned up and the sooner U.S. forces will leave.
#3
American bombs are an inefficient solution that is used because the Iraqis won't kill the jihadis themselves. There's enough ammo lying around in country to allow the locals to mop up all the Syrians and Iranians in a single night.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 22:27 Comments ||
Top||
A soldier in Iraq sent Zack at Something Awful some email and a CD with pics. From the email:
When we first got here, everything went to shit at warp speed. Our platoon was chopped up for different missions, despite vociferous protests by our leadership. Over half the platoon was taken to run the detention facility here. Our HUMINT element was split into teams, and they run constant, nerve-wracking missions all over our AO with minimal security. Barely enough of us were left to do our SIGINT mission, which was nearly scrubbed altogether due to the lack of productivity by our predecessors. We were nearly sent along with the rest to run the jail, but we managed to raise enough of a ruckus to keep just enough troops to remain mission capable. Iâm a little worried about that part about troops being taken out of action to run the jail. Seems to me they could find others that would do that better. [Insert Abu Ghraib joke here.] Most of the rest of the emailâs more upbeat.
Interesting pics include: Captured loot, oil fires, snow, the mighty Euphrates, Commie armor, a certificate of loyalty to Saddam, and Qusayâs Jag. Via Tim Blair.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 10:55:28 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
According to the first sentence of this article "It is well known by now that the forces confronting the soldiers of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq include a significant number of foreign "jihadis." "
I'd like to believe this, but according to an article in USA Today "Only 90 of the more than 5,700 people in custody in Iraq (news - web sites) as security risks are foreign fighters, defense officials said on Tuesday, a figure that suggests the Bush administration may have overstated the role of outside militants in the deadly insurgency. " (The link is at http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-05-detainees-usat_x.htm" since it doesn't seem to show up when I preview.)
Do we not have a clue as to who we are fighting, or are we just not catching the foreign jihadis? I certainly don't have a firm grasp on who we're up against, what concerns me is that I'm not sure our military in Iraq does either - or is this a case of different sources (Wash. Times & Reuters/USAToday) pushing their own point of view?
If itâs true, it should be an interesting debrief.
The family of a Lebanese-born U.S. Marine held hostage in Iraq said it was confident Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun had been freed and was well, though relatives have not heard directly from him, his brother said Tuesday."We have received reliable information the guy is free," Sami Hassoun told The Associated Press from the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli, where the Marine has family. Though he had not spoken with his brother, who was serving as a translator with the U.S. Marines in Iraq when he went missing June 20, Sami Hassoun said "we received a sign from my brother reassuring us." Hi, guys. My headâs still attached.
He would not say what was the sign, but said the family received information deemed credible from a person he did not identify who came to their Tripoli home. That person, he said, did not disclose the whereabouts of the Marine to the family. Lebanese Foreign Ministry officials said in Beirut that its embassy in Baghdad said Hassoun was still alive. They gave no further details. Hassounâs alleged captors have claimed he was romantically involved with an Arab woman and was lured away from his Marine base and captured. Hassounâs family in Tripoli and in Utah have had their hopes dashed and raised with conflicting information about the Marineâs fate coming from his purported captors and Lebanese officials. On Saturday, a militant group calling itself the Ansar al-Sunna Army claimed on a Web site that it had beheaded the 24-year-old Marine, adding it would release video backing that assertion. But the group said Sunday it did not issue the statement, leaving it unclear what had happened to Hassoun. In a statement sent to Al-Jazeera television, a group calling itself "Islamic Response," said Monday that Hassoun was safe at an undisclosed location. The statement also claimed Hassoun had promised not to return to the American military. The Marines might have something to say about that.
"We pray that the news of his safe release is true," Tarek Nosseir, a family spokesman, said Monday. "If he is still in captivity, we remind the captors of the saying of our beloved prophet: Be merciful to those on earth, mercy will descend upon you from heaven." ...and heâs not an INFIDEL!
Hassoun, educated at American schools in his native Lebanon before moving to the Salt Lake City area, was serving his second stint in Iraq. His father, Ali Hassoun, who also lives in Tripoli, repeatedly has pleaded for his sonâs release. He and his other sons have contacted politicians and Muslim clerics in Lebanon and Islamist groups in Iraq in hopes of securing the Marineâs release.
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/06/2004 10:02:55 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#2
Surprise, surprise...a muslim U.S. marine released unharmed by the terrorists. Let's see, he joins the list of other U.S. marines held hostage and released unharmed...oh wait...he's the only one on that list...
Posted by: jawa ||
07/06/2004 11:04 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Prolly gonna set him up in a chateau in Beirut with a Med view and milk him for all the propaganda value they can...
#4
word on teh radio this AM was that he had to defect to stay alive
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 11:28 Comments ||
Top||
#5
The Japanese lefties got released also, but Nick Berg and the South Korean kid got chopped. The message is muddled. Zarqawi must be relying on focus groups.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:18 Comments ||
Top||
"Hokay, thanks for coming today. Before you get lunch, let me ask you a few questions. We got a Marine out back and we're thinking about chopping his head off. How do you all feel about that? Yeah, you in the back, sir."
"Not so good, Mr. Zarqawi."
"And why is that, I'm wondering?"
"Because if you do, the Marines will come here and whip the ever-loving snot out of us."
"Well, you've heard one point of view. Who's next?"
Posted by: Matt ||
07/06/2004 14:08 Comments ||
Top||
#11
Not focus groups... if it is centrally directed perhaps is giving irregular rewards.... ala pinball and slot machines. It's a very effective way to change behavior for higher mammals.
#12
He and his other sons have contacted politicians and Muslim clerics in Lebanon and Islamist groups in Iraq in hopes of securing the Marineâs release.
The whole Middle East is nothing more than one big spider's web: pull one or two strands and the whole thing moves.
#13
This is the weirdest story--I hate it.
How did this guy get in the Marines and why does his Muslim Lebanese family live in Mormon-dominated Utah?
Posted by: Jen ||
07/06/2004 17:22 Comments ||
Top||
#14
More intriguing yet, why is the Interior Minister of Lebanon (another article) taken upon himself to give information on the fate of an American Marine?
He is an American, is he not? Shouldn't somebody from the US Army be the one in charge of securing his realease and informing the public about it?
#15
Jen - prolly 'cuz Utah has a lot of high-desert, mormons like that polygamy thing, look down on drink, and the big one - it doesn't have enough 7/11s.
#16
1. IIUC, Greater Salt Lake City is little more than half Mormon. Theres a considerable hispanic minority (and has been for a long time) and plenty of other "gentiles" including a few Jews - note that all non-Mormons are "gentiles")
2. Why was he allowed in the USMC - I guess he met all criteria for joining - anyone know of any criteria he missed?
All in all, I still dont think we know the whole truth here. Hell, I havent heard any info lately on the real story with Nick Berg either.
#17
1. IIUC, Greater Salt Lake City is little more than half Mormon. Theres a considerable hispanic minority (and has been for a long time) and plenty of other "gentiles" including a few Jews - note that all non-Mormons are "gentiles")
2. Why was he allowed in the USMC - I guess he met all criteria for joining - anyone know of any criteria he missed?
All in all, I still dont think we know the whole truth here. Hell, I havent heard any info lately on the real story with Nick Berg either.
Moqtada Sadr says he will continue to oppose the occupation of Iraq by foreign forces and insists the new government lacks legitimacy as reports in from Najaf says the alhamhdi army is reading their weapons. Sadr said there would be no truce with those who co-operated with the U.S.-led forces in Iraq, contradicting earlier conciliatory-sounding statements. Hours later, the interim government postponed again the unveiling of a new security law to tackle the insurgency. The declaration came in a statement distributed by Sadr's office in the Shia holy city of Najaf, where his Mahdi army battled U.S. troops until a cease-fire in June. "We pledge to the Iraqi people and the world to continue resisting oppression and occupation to our last drop of blood," the statement said.
Ok by me.
"Resistance is a legitimate right and not a crime to be punished."
Resist away, it worked so well last time. How many gunnies did you lose, we lost count.
On Monday, the interim government of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi postponed for a second time its unveiling of a new security regime that it wants to impose to curb the insurgency that continues to destabilize the country. Officials cancelled a news conference scheduled on Monday to announce the law. No new time was set, reports said. The government had planned the announcement for Saturday, but that event was also cancelled. Allawi's interim government was formally handed sovereign powers by the US-led occupation on 28 June.
Guess he doesn't want that amnesty. It's almost like we knew he wouldn't stop.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 9:29:02 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 10:46 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Allawi is getting his OJT right now. Negotiations in good faith will not happen with the likes of al-Sadr. People like Sistani cannot expect al-Sadr to go away as a wish, either. The games will have to stop. So if the Iraqis want to play games, then they will have a tribal s**thole like much of the ME. If they want to build a nation for the common good, they will have to be tough in the beginning, especially with millions being financed by Iran to tip the balance. I hope that Allawi has the stones to come down hard, or he is toast.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/06/2004 10:54 Comments ||
Top||
#6
Is this newer than the we're-not-using-actual-guns story?
#7
Ya gotta admit, Tater's a trip. He provides the comic relief in Iraq. I dunno if the problem is that every Iranian who comes over to give him his new orders is getting bagged, or if he's just dyslexic. Regardless, this guy is priceless. Baghdad Bob's replacement...
#8
Suppose this has anything to do with Iran's recent surge of tough talk and action? Sadr is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Iranian theocracy and does what his paymasters direct. Maybe this time it will get him killed.
1. Sadr is just a nut
2. Hes getting conflicting messages from Teheran
3. He wants to fight, but doesnt want to look like hes on the side of (increasingly unpopular) Zarqawi
4. He doesnt want to fight, but wants to establish firm ownership of the anti-US wing of Iraqi politics, and can't look too cuddly with the US and Allawi.
#10
Sistani has shown he's not ready for prime time, I hope Allawi can maneuver him/awaken him to doing as Alaska Paul suggested: come down hard and establish a pecking-order that's respected. It's contrary to Sistani's view of leadership and role of the clergy to do it in the way it needs to be done, it seems. Allawi needs to be the activist Shi'ite if Sistani continues his quietist act. Could be wrong, but I think there's political gold to be mined in the form of anti-rabbelrouser, anti-Pasdaran sentiment in the streets of Najaf, Nasariyah, and Basrah.
Sadr's cache came from being the punk who vexed the foreigners; don't think there's much mileage in vexing the hawza and the Shi'ite interim PM -- hope we find out.
#11
See if Barbara Walters can get an interview. I want to see his human side. He could be a dedicated father and end up as road pizza before we come to appreciate his sensitivity. [Have Barbara's stylist weld a spidey tracer somewhere in her coagulation of space-age polymers hair]
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:24 Comments ||
Top||
#12
Moqtada Sadr says he will continue to oppose the occupation of Iraq by foreign forces and insists the new government lacks legitimacy as reports in from Najaf says the alhamhdi army is reading their weapons.
Kill him NOW. No ifs, ands, or buts. The games have gotta stop sooner or later.
#13
Sadr's continuing theft of oxygen is a crime against humanity. This walking posterboy for retroactive contraception needs to take the dirt nap stat!
#14
LH this is the East one does not preclude the other.
You may choose 3. 1. Sadr is just a nut
2. Hes getting conflicting messages from Teheran
3. He wants to fight, but doesnt want to look like hes on the side of (increasingly unpopular) Zarqawi
4. He doesnt want to fight, but wants to establish firm ownership of the anti-US wing of Iraqi politics, and can't look too cuddly with the US and Allawi.
1. Sadr is just a nut Nope. He's stupid and believes what he sees on Al Jiz.
2. Hes getting conflicting messages from Teheran Probably. The blackhat acid throwers are not exactly rocket scientists, either.
3. He wants to fight, but doesnt want to look like hes on the side of (increasingly unpopular) Zarqawi I don't think the boy has the balls to fight anyone. The fat wuss, michael moore look-alike hid out the whole fight this Spring. He's a puppet, and the blackhats are blowing smoke up his kimono til someone pops HIM with an AK.
4. He doesnt want to fight, but wants to establish firm ownership of the anti-US wing of Iraqi politics, and can't look too cuddly with the US and Allawi. Agreed.
A group of armed, masked Iraqi men threatened Tuesday to kill Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi if he did not immediately leave the country, accusing him of murdering innocent Iraqis and defiling the Muslim religion. The threats revealed the deep anger many Iraqis, including insurgent groups, feel toward foreign fighters, whom many consider as illegitimate a presence here as the 160,000 U.S. and other coalition troops.
In a videotape sent to the al-Arabiya television station, a group calling itself the "Salvation Movement," questioned how al-Zarqawi could use Islam to justify the killing of innocent civilians, the targeting of government officials and the kidnapping and beheading of foreigners. "He must leave Iraq immediately, he and his followers and everyone who gives shelter to him and his criminal actions," said a man on the video. The video marked the first time that an Iraqi group made such a public threat against al-Zarqawi. It was issued a day after U.S.-led coalition forces, who have been targeting al-Zarqawi, launched an air strike in the restive city of Fallujah on a suspected safe house used by his followers. The attack killed 15 people, witnesses said. In the video, three men, their faces covered with Arab headscarves, were flanked by rocket propelled grenades and an Iraqi flag. The man speaking had a clear Iraqi accent. "We swear to Allah that we have started preparing ... to capture him and his allies or kill them and present them as gift to our people." the man said. "This is the last warning. If you don't stop, we will do to you what the coalition forces have failed to do."
I love it when a plan comes together.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/06/2004 8:39:54 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
I'm looking forward to the video of these gents holding Zarqawi's severed head.
#2
Wow - I'm impressed. I hope the sentiment catches on.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
07/06/2004 10:08 Comments ||
Top||
#3
I hope it's the guys that whacked Uday several years ago. They impressed the hell out of me.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 10:36 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Wonder if this group is kin to the vigilante group that was targeting Al-Sadr's militiamen a couple of months ago...great minds thinking alike, and all...
#9
Maybe bumping up the bounty on Zarqawi's head to $25 million got a few people's attention. If they're smart, they'll release videotapes of Zarqawi's beheading.
An armed group calling itself the "Salvation Movement" threatened in a video aired Tuesday to kill Al-Qaeda-linked Jordanian operative Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi if he did not leave Iraq. "The apostate, criminal Zarqawi and his henchmen must leave Iraq immediately," said a statement read by one of the group on the Dubai-based Al-Arabiya satellite news channel. "Islam has nothing to do with this criminal," said the statement, referring to attacks attributed to the Sunni Muslim Zarqawi, particularly in Shiite-populated towns. "We have started work and preparations to capture him and his followers or kill them and offer them as a gift to our people and martyrs," said the hooded gunman.
The group also issued a "last warning" to those "harboring" Zarqawi and his men. "We will do to you what the (US-led) coalition forces were unable to do if you do not desist," the statement said. "Who is Zarqawi to be allowed to do what he is doing to Iraq?" the statement said, listing the abduction of foreign workers, the assassination of political and religious figures and threats to Iraqi Shiites. The hitherto unheard of group appeared to be made up of Shiites, who form a majority in Iraq.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 8:28:04 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
This is being reported by AP also. Good news and good hunting!
#2
"We will do to you what the (US-led) coalition forces were unable to do if you do not desist," the statement said.
Gotta be kurds. They're the ones with the backbone in Iraq.
Posted by: Charles ||
07/06/2004 8:59 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Instinctively, I have to admit I wish these guys success, however, the development the terrorist violence into conflict between sectarian 'paramilitary' groups would make Iraq start to look worryingly like, say, Northern Ireland. If substantial numbers of the majority group resort to supporting organisations prepared to fight in the same manner as opposed groups which claim to be representing their neighbours, we might just see an exacerbation of inter-community hostility and a breakdown in trust, and tit-for-tat violence that could go on for many years, whilst paralysing the country. If the violence spirals, it could lead to civil war, would also make things much more convenient for external powers who have a vested interest in stirring up trouble. If this group isn't explicitly Shiite, it's appearance might be more reassuring.
Far better to leave this sort of thing to the national government, even if it's less efficient and/or effective.
#4
I don't like this either. It's either Rule of Law - or not - they have to figure it out and choose. I know vigilante justice can fill in for official authority - it happened in the US as it expanded, but it was still an ugly SOB situation.
Allawi needs more trained people who "get it" and he needs to work with the US / UK / allies (can't use CPA, anymore, heh) to get hard assistance where needed. And, we'll see if he realizes that the amnesty thing makes getting the help he needs more problematic.
If this takes root, then it will end up at Partition.
#6
Expecting a ROP condemnation of Zarqawi from American muslims in 3, 2, 1..... Amazing that it has to come from an Iraqi group. I agree that I don't want to see a tit for tat situation, I wouldn't mind seeing Zarqawi get his!
Posted by: BA ||
07/06/2004 12:40 Comments ||
Top||
#7
i wouldnt stake to much on a video from an unknown group. As far as we know the video could be their only action, designed to portray (accurately or not) divisions within the insurgency. This could be almost anything.
This is the last straw.
The new Iraqi government is contemplating an amnesty for insurgents who fought American-led forces, including those who have killed soldiers, as a means of dividing rebel forces. But the plan has met strong opposition from some senior American officials and some Iraqis within the interim administration installed last week when sovereignty was officially handed over. Iyad Allawi, the interim prime minister, is due to announce an amnesty programme this week. The aim will be to draw a line under the US-led occupation and effectively legitimise those who fought it. "If he [a fighter] was in opposition against the Americans, that will be justified because it was an occupation force," said Georges Sada, Mr Allawiâs spokesman, at the weekend. "We will give them freedom." Mr Allawiâs main goal is to "start everything from new", he said, by giving a second chance to rebel fighters who hand in their weapons and throw their weight behind the new government.
There was "still heavy discussion" about whether killers should be included but Mr Sada suggested that mistakes by Paul Bremer, the former US administrator who disbanded the Iraqi army, had forced some people into joining the insurgency. "Some people were cheated, some were misled," he said. "Some did this because they had no salaries, no food, no bread."
But somehow they managed to come up with guns? Perhaps they should consider selling the guns to buy bread?
Mr Allawiâs amnesty is designed to isolate the insurgents into a hardcore rump that can be depicted as anti-Iraqi rather than anti-American. In practice, few would have been prosecuted anyway and the identities of those who killed American soldiers are for the most part unknown. "This Iraq now is a new Iraq. Itâs for every Iraqi citizen to be part of the new and democratic Iraq," said Mr Allawi in a television interview with ABC News. "Anybody who respects the rule of law and the human rights is welcome to be part of Iraq. Anybody who does not is clearly not welcome."
Mr Allawi is also expected to announce the restoration of the death penalty and also curfew laws in the areas that have suffered the greatest unrest. American sources said the US state department, which now holds sway in Iraq after the dissolution of the Pentagon-sponsored Coalition Provisional Authority, also wanted the new government to issue statements condemning Israel as a way of gaining popularity at home and in the Arab world. Any form of full amnesty would be vigorously opposed by the Pentagon and many American generals whose troops have been killed. Hamid Alkifaey, the head of public relations for the new government, said that this had been recognised. "You canât kill American soldiers and just think it can be pardoned," he said.
An American official said: "We have to give Allawi a chance to do it his way. We wonât like everything he does but as long as there is a basic respect for overall human rights then we will not block his initiatives. He needs to be seen as his own man. Besides, the past 15 months have shown that sometimes pragmatism rather than a doctrinaire approach is likely to yield better results. If Allawi can help to achieve stability then we may be prepared to overlook some of the messier details."
Mr Allawi has also indicated that he hopes to entice Moqtada al-Sadr, the Shia cleric who led an anti-American uprising in April, into politics. "He is looking for an amnesty," Mr Allawi said. "He is looking to be part of the political process. He is willing . . . to dismantle the militias that he has formed." But last night a statement from Sadr pledged to resist "oppression and occupation", saying the interim government was "illegitimate".
That worked well, didn't it?
This story's datelined today, but I think it's two or three days old.
Posted by: ||
07/06/2004 2:37:31 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
This isn't true. No way Allawi would do something like this with our forces still on his doorstep.
Posted by: Charles ||
07/06/2004 8:56 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Actually this is a good idea for all concerened, including us.
The new PM must show his independance from us in order to bring about a stable govt. And in turn a stable govt is a benefit to us.
#6
Allawis looking to stabilize the country ahead of elections. Somebody says," I wuz just killing Americans, cause they wuz occupiers" Allawi says - ok, sos no more occupation, now theyre here as a multinational force helping us. Youse ready to put down your gun and play nice, we'll let bygones be bygones - you dont, we kill you. And of course you killed civilians, we cant let bygones be bygones.
#7
Iraq Pres Yawer in USAToday interview: Q: A spokesman for Prime Minister Iyad Allawi suggested over the weekend that the new government may offer amnesty to insurgents who fought against U.S. forces.
A: It's not like that. (The amnesty would apply to) people who have been deluded into participating or causing some problems. This will exclude rapists, hostage takers and killers.
#8
This is the last straw for the poster. He must have left Rantburg to join Indymedia.
Is any reasonable person really surprised that a sovreign Iraq would act in its own interests and piss us off? We don't have ten years for us to become acclimated to the Iraqi's doing what needs to be done. We need to focus on the neighbors as soon as Allawi can clean out Fallujah - which he can't until he can get the rest of the triangle to behave.
Allawi knows that few will take the amnesty because most of the clowns were never fighting the invaders they were fighting progress. The amnesty is a way to publically redefine the glorious insurgents into the Sadaam Fan Club. Note: some will accept the amnesty but then fall off the wagon rather quickly - look at Sadr.
This method has worked excellently for Karzai in Afghanistan. He is now liquidating the bad actors peicemeal instead of all at once.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 12:57 Comments ||
Top||
#9
"Some people were cheated, some were misled," he said. "Some did this because they had no salaries, no food, no bread."
#10
yuh know there is also evidence that some of the cannon fodder were just unemployed ex-soldiers, in it for the money, or money plus a confused sense of nationalism. Why not give them a chance to see the light?? even if they fall off the wagon later, by that point your security situation is stronger.
#11
#6Allawis looking to stabilize the country ahead of elections.
Folding a terrorist faction back into Iraq's political mainstream does not come across as a very reliable way to "stabilize the country ahead of elections." What it does represent is ample reason for America to be quite apprehensive about continued terror operations being sourced out of Iraq.
Allawi should work on a major purge of the insurgents before extending this sort of olive branch. All the wrong messages are being sent, while both Iraqi and American national security are being ill-served.
#12
I agree with Zenster. Even musing aloud about the possibility of amnesty in any shape or fashion before purging the "insurgents" of murdering America-haters is wrong,insulting, and dangerous to our troops in Iraq.
yuh know there is also evidence that some of the cannon fodder were just unemployed ex-soldiers, in it for the money, or money plus a confused sense of nationalism. Why not give them a chance to see the light?? even if they fall off the wagon later, by that point your security situation is stronger.
What hog wash! Tell that Kumbaya forgive and forget gibberish to the surviving families of GI's who were "mistakenly" killed by "mislead" Iraqis, LH. In fact, fly to Iraq tomorrow and argue your sensible case to the GI's in Iraq who are still mourning the deaths of 900 of their brothers. Tell these GI's the "good reasons" why murderers should get amnesty and why they should continue putting their own lives at risk for sensible folks like you. Tell these GI's how their 900 lost brothers are going to come back to life so everyone, not just amnesty beneficiaries, can start life "anew" in Iraq.
Posted by: rex ||
07/06/2004 15:21 Comments ||
Top||
#13
rex
cause its a WAR. You win a war, you forgive the guys you beat. Happened in Germany, Japan, etc. It even happens in an insurgency. Especially there.
AFAIK the GIs in Iraq NOW understand this.
Unless youre in Iraq, you have no basis for speaking for the GIs in Iraq.
What we owe to the GIs is to win the damned war. You go to war to win, not to protect the GIs. You mainly want to protect the GIs, keep em home in the first place. And winning an insurgency means playing politics. It means cutting deals, including deals with scumbags. It means dividing the opposition,even if the opposition includes lice. If we cant deal with that, we might as well cut and run now.
Zen - I dont see Allawi offering to fold the Baathists or Zarqs as factions - hes offering amnesty to individuals. He is offering to fold in Al mahdis - but weve discussed that enough, and the situation is evolving, so i wont say more now.
#14
Unless youre in Iraq, you have no basis for speaking for the GIs in Iraq.
That sentiment should apply to you, LH, yes? What do you know about what it takes to win a war, especially a war in the ME where the culture and values are very very different than what happened after WWII. Also, amnesty after WWII was given to uniformed officers who fought a traditional war against other men in uniform. Sniping, planting bombs, stealing soveniers from dead GI's, all the while dressed as a civilian, is not what amnesty was intended to "forgive."
These ignoble murdering civilians will continue doing their evil work in the future, is my guess. They have no courage to fight in uniform, so what makes you think they value the noble intent of amnesty to lay down arms and start anew?
Don't you get it, LH? American GI's are seen as "occupiers" and it matters not that sovereignity is handed over to Allawi or not...American GI's, in fact in increased numbers, are still in Iraq. That's what Sunni and Shiite Iraqis see and hate. As long as GI's are still in Iraq, they will be viewed as the "enemy" and they will continue to be targets of "mislead" Iraqis. Is Allawi going to do a monthly amnesty to start "anew?" American GI's are infidels. How are they going to change that? Convert to Islam? Even the Kurds have the good sense to figure that out and look for a contingency plan-ergo Kurds consulting with Israelis a couple of weeks ago. If you think the violence in Iraq will end with an amnesty, you have been drinking too much KoolAid, LH.
Posted by: rex ||
07/06/2004 15:48 Comments ||
Top||
#15
What do you know about what it takes to win a war, especially a war in the ME where the culture and values are very very different than what happened after WWII.
I DONT claim to know everything. I come here to discuss what the impact of different strategies might be. We use info from the mainstream media, from the soldiers, from Iraqi bloggers, from official US military sources, from arab language sources via Memri, and others, etc. Some here have expertise in various areas, including ground combat, naval affairs, intell etc. We all learn from each other Id like to think. If you have a specific critique of what i post thats fine. But to toss out what I assert based on your claim to speak for the GIs in Iraq is something else.
Are GIs seen as occupiers - the mainstream media says so. Polls are mixed, and sources from GIs and others are mixed as well. Plenty of info that the handover HAS made a difference in perceptions. Will an amnesty end the violence? No, of course not. Will killing Zarqawi end the violence? Will going Roman on Fallujah end the violence? I dont think ANY ONE POLICY will end the violence. An amnesty MAY be one tool to use. There may be serious arguments against it. What I see here is mainly emotional reactions - "he said he'll forgive people who killed AMERICANS!! damn him!!" exactly the reaction the mainstream media seems to want to elicit, and why theyre taking it out of context.
#16
But to toss out what I assert based on your claim to speak for the GIs in Iraq is something else.Are GIs seen as occupiers - the mainstream media says so. Polls are mixed, and sources from GIs and others are mixed as well. Plenty of info that the handover HAS made a difference in perceptions...Will going Roman on Fallujah end the violence?
A. Who is suggesting to go "Roman" on Fallujah?
B. Cite the polls that suggest that the handover has image a big difference in perception that US troops are seen as "occupiers."
C. I never said I spoke on behalf of GI's. I speak for myself. You allege that I speak for GI's.
Posted by: rex ||
07/06/2004 18:12 Comments ||
Top||
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 02:38 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Oh so not funny. If this happens I'll still support GWB, but only because he's better then the alternative. *Shudders at thought of President Kerry*
Posted by: Charles ||
07/06/2004 9:00 Comments ||
Top||
#2
No, it's not funny. However, the Iraqis are much more likely to take the gloves off with these scumbags and dish out some proper punishment than we are at this point.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
07/06/2004 12:37 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Chris and Charles, I think that you are looking at this strategy entirely the wrong way. None will take the Amnesty. What would a Baathist killer, Syrian/Iranian plant or jihadi gain by making nice with a democratic Iraq?
Allawi is publically unmasking the glorious insurgents for the bad actors that they really are. Note: some will accept the amnesty but then fall off the wagon rather quickly - look at Sadr.
This method has worked excellently for Karzai in Afghanistan. He is now liquidating the bad actors peicemeal instead of all at once.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 13:03 Comments ||
Top||
#4
SH, I didn't mean to infer that I thought the "amnesty" idea would work or be worthwhile; I think it's a colossal waste of breath.
I meant that the Iraqis have a stronger will to beat those scum down into the dirt from whence they came. But first they have to WANT to. I think Iraqis understand what lies at stake just as much as we do (probably more), so hopefully they won't allow their nation to regress back to Saddam-like tyranny.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
07/06/2004 13:09 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Chris, Allawi has now eliminated the "freedom fighter" excuse through the amnesty. As bombs targetting Iraqi innocents continue to go off (they surely will) we will begin to see some backlash that will take the form of intelligence tips. It has started in Fallujah. Have somm patience. This will be good. We just need to make sure that we shoot as many fleeing Syrian, Irainin and AQ murderers as we can. No bag limit. Lebanon will be all the easier for the amnesty.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/06/2004 13:53 Comments ||
Top||
#6
A number of very good points brought up here.
Super Hose your overview relating to the situation in Afghanistan could very well work in Iraq. The point that Allawi, himself a terrorist target as indeed eliminated those which would rally under the cover of 'freedom fighters' in order to continue the insane terrorism of jihadism.
I believe all of us understand this situation will in no way be solved until the state promoters of chaos & death, Iran, Syria-Lebanon are overthrown. That goes for the current Wahhabi crowd as well ruling the oil rich sands of Arabia.
KABUL -- An explosion wounded six people in the Afghan capital and revealed what international peacekeepers described yesterday as a clandestine bomb factory, officials said. Police who joined NATO troops in investigating the blast, which happened Saturday in a residential compound in west Kabul, arrested three men, said Commander Chris Henderson, the peacekeepersâ spokesman. A police official identified one man as Mohammed Hakim, the owner of the house. But it was not clear the men had links to militant groups. (AP)
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 2:00:40 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Work accidents happen.
Posted by: Charles ||
07/06/2004 9:02 Comments ||
Top||
#2
But it was not clear the men had links to militant groups.
From The Washington Post, an opinion article by Andrew Reynolds, an associate professor of political science, a member of a National Endowment for Democracy team advising on constitutional issues in Iraq, and an electoral systems adviser in more than 20 countries.
In recent weeks conservatives have criticized the choice of a proportional representation system for Iraqâs elections and have disparaged the U.N. electoral assistance department and its director, Carina Perelli. ... Proportional representation will avoid the anomalies that are prevalent when single-member districts or some variant thereof are used in emerging democracies. In 1998 the Lesotho Congress for Democracy won all but one seat in parliament with 60 percent of the vote; rioting and state collapse ensued. In the 2000 Mongolian elections, the ruling party took 95 percent of the seats with 58 percent of the vote. In Iraq such a system would most likely give a significant "seat bonus" to Shiite parties, to the detriment of Sunni-based groups and embryonic multiethnic movements.
The St. Lucian Nobel Prize-winner Sir Arthur Lewis cautioned 40 years ago that "the surest way to kill the idea of democracy in a plural society is to adopt the Anglo-American system of First Past the Post." ... First-past-the-post systems in divided African and Asian societies have facilitated the development of ethnically chauvinistic parties. Conversely, there are inherent incentives in proportional representation to appeal beyond the boundaries of your group; proportionality leaves a space for multiethnic parties to grow, as in South Africa. Every vote counts toward gaining extra seats in the national legislature, and this would motivate broader vote appeals from Kurdish and Sunni parties in Iraq.
Majority-based systems also systematically exclude women and smaller minority groups from representation. Women are underrepresented throughout the world, but the situation is significantly worse when single-member districts are used. Proportional representation allows the use of special mechanisms for gender diversity when constituting party lists. Finally, using proportional representation avoids the political powder keg of drawing district boundaries, and it makes voter registration far easier. ... The trend nowadays is for both established and emerging democracies to move to mixed systems, combining party slates and individual-candidate voting in districts, which satisfy various needs. No system can guarantee a democratic Iraq, but imposing winner-take-all elections would be like playing Russian roulette with Iraqâs political future.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/06/2004 7:39:30 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
In recent weeks conservatives have criticized the choice of a proportional representation system for Iraqâs elections and have disparaged the U.N. electoral assistance department and its director, Carina Perelli...
The WaPo just can't get out of the habit of publishing facts without attribution. Almost seems like their editorial staff is on crack.
... Proportional representation will avoid the anomalies that are prevalent when single-member districts or some variant thereof are used in emerging democracies. In 1998 the Lesotho Congress for Democracy won all but one seat in parliament with 60 percent of the vote; rioting and state collapse ensued. In the 2000 Mongolian elections, the ruling party took 95 percent of the seats with 58 percent of the vote. In Iraq such a system would most likely give a significant "seat bonus" to Shiite parties, to the detriment of Sunni-based groups and embryonic multiethnic movements.
"Embryonic multiethnic movements"? Is that like a bowel movment? Because it sounds like the writer had one of those while constructing this doozy of a concept.
The St. Lucian Nobel Prize-winner Sir Arthur Lewis cautioned 40 years ago that "the surest way to kill the idea of democracy in a plural society is to adopt the Anglo-American system of First Past the Post."
No, we are seeing the best way of killing a democracy is to let the 'experts' tell us what we should not be doing. And folks, first-past-the-post means majority rules. This fella wants to spread democracy by, well, killing democracy, and he is trying to tell us here that democracy is good, but only how HE defines it. Sorta NPRish, doncha think?
... First-past-the-post systems in divided African and Asian societies have facilitated the development of ethnically chauvinistic parties. Conversely, there are inherent incentives in proportional representation to appeal beyond the boundaries of your group; proportionality leaves a space for multiethnic parties to grow, as in South Africa. Every vote counts toward gaining extra seats in the national legislature, and this would motivate broader vote appeals from Kurdish and Sunni parties in Iraq.
So, what this rocket scientist is saying that parties not necessarily ethnic should be the exemplar for democracy, not political movements.
Majority-based systems also systematically exclude women and smaller minority groups from representation.
And so would any model of democracy which does not embrace majority rules.
Women are underrepresented throughout the world, but the situation is significantly worse when single-member districts are used. Proportional representation allows the use of special mechanisms for gender diversity when constituting party lists.
Got that? Ethnic groups who combine to pursue their interests are bad unless they, uhm, combine to pursue their interests.
Finally, using proportional representation avoids the political powder keg of drawing district boundaries, and it makes voter registration far easier.
I bet. Lessee, under a 'proportional system, a Star of David for Jewish folks, a crescent for Muslim folks, and what? Lawrence Welk for white folks? All printed nice and in three colors on your card. You get get a special patch made up to show your ethnic pride.
... The trend nowadays is for both established and emerging democracies to move to mixed systems, combining party slates and individual-candidate voting in districts, which satisfy various needs. No system can guarantee a democratic Iraq, but imposing winner-take-all elections would be like playing Russian roulette with Iraqâs political future.
No, Russian roulette would be if the Iraqis decided to follow your ideas.
Back to the drawing board dude. You may be a prince amoungst poli sci guys, but your honesty needs some adjusting. Keep your Zimbabwean way of democracy.
In a true democracy, majority rules and under the rule of law.
#2
In a true democracy, majority rules and under the rule of law.
If this was an implementation of Switzerland-style direct democracy you'd have a point. Because in every single issue "majority" would rule.
But in representative parliamentary system, democracy is stronger if it allows *all* to be represented within the parliament. You can have different political parties agreeing and cooperating in different issues. You can have MPs breaking off from one party to form another. These things are *good*. It's called plurality.
USA is not the best example to apply to Iraq, because of the federal structure. But even there, there can be scenarios of ludicrous non-democracy. Consider for example a case where 30% Nader votes and 30% Democrat votes would lose to a 40% of Republican votes. Every third party is doomed.
More to the point consider a case in Iraq where 30% of pan-Arabist Sharia Islamists win because the other parties are divided in either ethnic or ideological lines concerning economy and so forth. You may have your social-democrats, and your classical liberals, and your secular conservatives, and your Kurdish-independence party, and so forth. And yet a single party that's the most extremist of them all may get 90% of the parliament seats by having a tiny majority (not even an absolute one) by over all the other.
Would you think that's perfectly democratic? A more fair system would be if the different parties were allowed to cooperate or disagree on different issues. And *then* majority rules.
#3
Proportional representation is a recipe for gridlock and catering to extremist interests who hold the balance of power. This is why extremist groups (and folks like Aris) like them. First-past-the-post systems have to attract the votes of electoral majorities on a district by district level. This means that the interests of the broad middle, as well as of individual geographical districts, are represented. The American primary system, combined with the electoral vote system for the President and the Senatorial system ensures that the interests of specific geographical areas are never overlooked in favor of megalopolises like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles.
First-past-the-post has failed in some Third World countries, and succeeded in others. Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are some of the obvious successes. Much of Africa and Latin America have adopted just about every system under the planet and failed. It's got nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the people.
#4
Proportional representation is a recipe for gridlock
That depends on the specific system. I'm not necessarily advocating a *completely* proportional system. I'm just advocating a system where even small parties have a chance to be a part of this, and a single big party isn't allowed to completely dominate by having a tiny majority.
I've not studied the systems of those Asian countries you mentioned -- as for America I see how the electoral system helps by adding weight to the votes of smaller states, but I don't see how the "winner gains all" system helps in this. If the electors were proportionally divided in each state (rather than all going to a single party), wouldn't smaller states be protected just the same?
#5
Aris: If the electors were proportionally divided in each state (rather than all going to a single party), wouldn't smaller states be protected just the same?
Smaller states are protected fine by the present first-past-the-post system, which has the benefit of not resulting in gridlock, and continual changes of government as coalitions collapse. Perhaps the countries with proportional representation should examine adopting the first-past-the-post system, given the evident success of countries with this system, including the US, Canada, Britain, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, et al. I think advocates of proportional representation are under the mistaken impression that we are under some obligation to adopt their religiously-held views of their system, just as Communists believed in the inevitable onslaught of "People's Republics".
#6
Using Iraq as the case -- and we are -- I just can't get to the author's dread worst case scenarios. Given the demographic and political situation in Iraq, a constituency-based system would return a parliament mirroring the country's overall proportions. Ar-Ramadi's not going to send a Shi'ite deputy, an-Nasiriyah's not sending a Sunni, and obviously Irbil's not sending an Arab. Kirkuk and Baghdad might be two of the few areas where candidates from different "groups" would seriously vie for a seat.
Since Iraq is generally (possibly large urban areas somewhat excepted) a very clan-dominated society, proportional or constituency will still yield much the same slate of actors in the end -- at least in the early years of democracy.
Zhang Fei's right -- there are few generalizations in this area that prove to be reliable. Each country is different. Without deep study my impression is that a mixed, highly-federalized system would be the best bet for Iraq. Mixed in that you could have a lower house chosen by constituency, and weighted by population (like the US House) so that urban areas and predominant ethnic groups ended up with effective majorities, and an upper house comparable to the US Senate where minority and less-populated areas are over-represented -- this one chosen by proportional representation.
There are many wonders of the American system, but chief among them is how the separation of powers yields (usually!) just the right mix of gridlock and action. Concocting that mix for Iraq will be a challenge met, I think, not on the first attempt.
Aris, as far as I know (caveat emptor), identifiably islamist candidates have fared very poorly in local elections held to date, from Basrah to Mosul to the marshes (well, the areas formerly marshy now being reconstituted).
My sense is that constituency basis creates at least a modicum of practical connection to the electorate's mundane concerns, and some accountability on that basis. And anything that helps tether Iraqi politicians to things like a fair share of the oil revenues, good roads and garbage pick-up, and public health spending seems like a plus to me.
And for a second, just a second, savor the words "Iraqi politicians". This is something that was unimaginable just over a year ago. However untidy these early chapters in Iraq's new era seem -- and methinks they'll seem fairly untidy -- skeptics and nitpickers ought to sit back for just a moment and think about what a tectonic change has already been wrought in Iraq.
#8
I think the real agenda of these professors is to generate sufficient momentum behind this divisive system to get it adopted in America. This has the benefit of helping to destroy their ultimate enemy, which in their eyes is the US in its role as the epitome of Western oppression. Under proportional representation, the US would split into hundreds of ethnic interest groups, each of which would represent an ethnic colony on American soil, rather than comprise part of a unitary American state. I understand why America's enemies would like this system, but it's hard to see why Americans should support it.
#9
I think advocates of proportional representation are under the mistaken impression that we are under some obligation to adopt their religiously-held views of their system
I think that you religiously hold the idea that people can't simply *honestly disagree* with you without being fanatics.
Smaller states are protected fine by the present first-past-the-post system, which has the benefit of not resulting in gridlock, and continual changes of government as coalitions collapse.
I think that governments *should* change if the coalitions forming it collapse. It's like a constant vote of confidence. And once again -- the chances for gridlock depend to a great extent to the specific system.
But in the American system proportionality in state-electors wouldn't lead to an unstable government as the president once in would stay in -- nor do I see why proportionality in the congressmen would affect the stability of the executive branch of the government. I believe that the American president can't fall regardless of what happens in the upper/lower house. But that's because the American system isn't fully parliamentary, it's Presidential-parliamentary.
but it's hard to see why Americans should support it.
People that don't like either the Democrats or the Republicans would like to have some of their actual representatives in the senate. Libertarians or Greens or neonazis or whatever. Or atleast one American I know which supported change in the system, was a Nader voter.
People that identify with either the one or the other party won't have much of a problem with the current system.
#10
Verlaine - I agree, I think. the argument that single member districts focuses on practical politics and local issues has been made by Michael Rubin, and looks strong to me. As for ethnic mix, the real concerns would be Basra, Kirkuk, Hillah, and of course Baghdad. In the first three FPTP (first past the post) would tend to help Shiites. In Baghdad it would depend how you draw the districts. A good American district drawing pro could easily draw the lines so that Shiites won every single Baghdad seat.
So some part of this depends on how concerned you are about the Sunni Arabs. Though I think a battle about gerrymandered seats in Baghdad would be a BAD thing. I think the idea that FPTP favors fundies maybe a red herring - like V ive seen indications the Islamist lose in straight up elections in many parts of the South.
All in all this looks like something that can be compromised with a mixed system, but Id certainly be wary of one that leans too far to prop rep given the circumstances of Iraq,
#3
rkb....yes indeed, a ready made jihadist instigated riot, made to order for the anti-Israeli mass media.
'
Ed, let things calm down ....then the Saudi solution' .
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 18:17 Comments ||
Top||
France and Iraq will restore diplomatic relations that were severed 13 years ago during the Gulf War, the French Foreign Ministry said Monday. Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi met Monday with Bernard Bajolet, France's highest diplomatic representative in Iraq, and discussed restoration of ties that Saddam Hussein broke off in 1991, a ministry said. France opposed the U.S.-led war that toppled Saddam last year and has turned down American requests for military help in quelling an insurgency that threatens the interim Iraqi goverment. However, France has said it is willing to help train Iraqi security forces a very little bit and also supports limited forgiveness of Iraqi debt to help the country regain its economic footing as long as they get their oil field concessions back.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/06/2004 12:49:49 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
French training Iraqies? They don't need parade instruction Jocko, they need support to fight the guys who are blowing shit up. Isn't France closed this month anyways?
About 300 detainees will be released from Abu Ghraib prison this week, the latest group to be freed from the detention facility west of Baghdad, the U.S. military said Monday. The detainees will be set free on Monday and Tuesday, Lt. Col. Barry Johnson told The Associated Press. Some 5,500 other detainees remain in custody, Johnson said. About 2,200 are held at Abu Ghraib, and 2,700 are being held at Camp Bucca near Umm Qasr in the far south of the country, he said. Others are at smaller facilities around the country where they "are initially screened to determine whether they should be processed for detention or released," Johnson said. U.S. authorities have released more than 2,000 detainees from Abu Ghraib in the last two months.
No mercy for the ones who pick up a rifle against us a second time.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/06/2004 12:44:21 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
If those released were criminals, then turn them over to the Iraqis. Let them decide if they want thieves, kidnappers, rapists and murderers walking free.
If those released were those taking shots or planting bombs, then shame on the US authorities for bowing to PC political and media pressure, and giving those dirtbags another chance to kill troops and Iraqi citizens.
If I was a soldier in Iraq, I would do my damnedest to make sure anyone attacking me dies in combat and does not have a chance to surrender.
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 6:44 Comments ||
Top||
#2
I think most of these prisoners are being released because we have no real evidence that they are criminals, terrorists or insurgents.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/06/2004 7:14 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Is that right, Mike? Where did you learn that tidbit? We wouldn't capture, ship thousands of miles, and hold them at great cost for months if they had no evidence. The ones released must have no value and not worth detaining. I'd let it be known that we were sending back some spys among the released...
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 8:19 Comments ||
Top||
#4
According to common wisdom in this forum, they wouldn't have been suspected of doing something if they hadn't really done it.
That's why every prisoner is automatically guilty. And that's why torture and humiliation is justified -- because it's all done only to terrorists, as no innocent would *ever* be jailed by US troops.
#5
Actually I was speaking of Gitmo. At Abu Grahib, I'm sure some criminals were picked up among the terrorists, and as you know, Aris, criminals are usually released after serving their time - at least in Amerikkka
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 8:30 Comments ||
Top||
#6
# 3: Is that right, Mike? Where did you learn that tidbit?
My opinion is based on many articles that I have posted here. I suppose many of the released prisoners indeed are criminals, terrorists or insurgents, but we have no real evidence that they are. And I suppose that many indeed are not criminals, terrorists or insurgents.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/06/2004 8:37 Comments ||
Top||
#7
and as you know, Aris, criminals are usually released after serving their time - at least in Amerikkka
I'm pretty sure that we can't apply to the prisons of Iraq what happens to "Amerikkka" (as you call it). Afterall, atleast in "Amerikkka", prisoners also get the right to a trial. And the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
#8
About half of the prisoners at Abu Graib were there for crimes, but often they are both. Is the kidnapper threatening doctors also trying to bring the Baath back to power? Still, I think it best to turn them (especially those arrested for crimes early in the occupation) over to the new Iraqi government, for them to decide.
There are several levels of filtration before a detainee gets to Abu Graib. At the site a raid, if an interpreter is available, detainees are cursorily questioned and those determined to not be involved are released. Next at base camp, more probing questions are asked to determine if they are telling the truth, if their story matches what others are saying, and checked for physical evidence, such at explosive residue. I have been reading accounts of raids where up to half are released, primarily because of lack of physical evidence. Only then are they sent to a prison such as Abu Graib. The only class of prisoner I would worry about are those Iraqi informants identified as a hostile/terrorist for political purposes or to settle old scores, and arrested with no corroborating evidence.
Iraq is not Greece and there is a terrorist war going on. Do you think those making and blowing up car bombs should be go through the same procedure as a pickpocket in Athens? Or should they be shot as non-uniformed, unprotected (per Geneva Convention) terrorists, saboteurs and spies?
I am a firm believer in reciprocity. If our Islamic enemies torture or execute our people, then torture and execute theirs. If they bomb or fly airplanes into our buildings, bomb their buildings and mosques. If they insist on making war to kill, convert and pillage, then ⦠well you get the idea.
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 9:30 Comments ||
Top||
#9
Ed, I'm liking what I'm hearing, keep up the good rants.
#10
Ed> Do you think those making and blowing up car bombs should be go through the same procedure as a pickpocket in Athens?
I have no interest in what happens or what doesn't happen to those making and blowing up car bombs as long as they are put away where they can't harm more people.
My interest in in what happens to the possibly innocent. The people who are only "suspected" of doing things.
#11
like the "innocent" with explosive residue on his hands?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 10:19 Comments ||
Top||
#12
Fine. Try them when the Iraqi courts are up and have the capacity. But donât summarily release them, only to have them go back to shooting at troops or bombing Iraqis.
I remenber seeing news video of the first release and released prisoners bragging that they were insurgents and would return to attacking US forces. I am sure they were also bombing Iraqis, but wouldn't admit it on camera since they have to live with those they bombed.
Posted by: ed ||
07/06/2004 10:31 Comments ||
Top||
#13
like the "innocent" with explosive residue on his hands?
Frank, yesterday you made yourself clear about where you think I stand, and I made my contempt for you and for your beliefs in me likewise clear.
As such, there's no need for your mutually demeaning game of pretending to be thick at understanding and insulting in your implications. You think I support the jihadis, and I think that, in order to believe that, you must be too stupid for words.
#14
AK: You think I support the jihadis, and I think that, in order to believe that, you must be too stupid for words.
Actually, we already know you think we're stupid - stupid enough to believe that you are actually not a jihadi supporter (although it should be said that this is more of a marriage of convenience - like the Soviet alliance with Nazi Germany before hostilities broke out).
These are abu ghraib prisoners, NOT gitmo prisoners. If we're shipping them thousands of miles, somebody in Iraq had better learn to read a map!!
IIUC, we go raid a house, we find illegal weapons, papers etc we arrest all the adult males in the house. At some point we may find that somebody really didnt know what his brother in law (or whomever) was doing. 300 out of 5500? Easy. Makes perfect sense to release him. Or maybe we're releasing em on other grounds. Lets see what the US military says. I for one, am NOT willing to assume the worst about the US military.
#16
Zhang Fei> "Actually, we already know you think we're stupid - stupid enough to believe that you are actually not a jihadi supporter"
I see how that logic works -- for example yesterday I was urging for Sadr's *death* so obviously I was supporting him. Frank G. on the other hand said that we must leave him alive, so Frank's clearly a fierce opponent of the Jihadis instead.
You know, I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq, but I was never stupid enough to say that the people urging for Saddam's overthrow were in reality his allies. That level of abject stupidity belongs only to you and Frank.
#18
Heh heh. Sadr dead works for me, Aris. You've lost me in your "logic" there. I don't think I'm inconsistent in my bloodthirsty Neocon pro-Israel Hawkishness....
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 16:14 Comments ||
Top||
#19
Frank> Sadr dead works for me, Aris.
Yesterday you said that "Sadr dead is a martyr" and you seemed to think it a bad idea.
A flip-flopper, I see. Or more probably a conformist -- checking the other thread today you probably noticed that most Rantburgers favour Sadr dead also. Follow the crowds, Frank, follow the crowds.
You've lost me in your "logic" there.
It's you (plural) who claimed me a jihadi-ally, so I think it falls on you (plural) to explain how someone who's been consistently urging for the demise of jihadis (not just in Iraq but in Israel also) is an ally of them.
#20
quite possibly so :-)
I think a martyred Sadr does short-term ill, long-term good. I don't recall specifically accusing you of allying with Jihadis.... I do however believe that you take satisfaction of a sort when the US takes a couple dead soldiers. If that is wrong, I apologize
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/06/2004 16:45 Comments ||
Top||
#21
Frank> If that is wrong, I apologize
So let me make it clear to you: There's never been a single American, in or outside the armed forces, whose death I took satisfaction over. Not a single one.
I took satisfaction over the death of Yassin and Rantissi. And if you want to find something possibly objectionable: I took satisfaction over the death of "president" Kadyrov, since in that conflict I think the Russians are worse than the Chechens.
Perhaps Zhang Fei is holding my views on Chechenya against me or something. Or perhaps he's just even worse than you.
No comment on the "apology". Calling me an idiot would have been one thing, but it takes me a bit longer than that to cool down after being presented as pure evil that wishes ill on Iraq.
Israeli authorities have published pictures of Israelâs nuclear plant in the Negev desert for the first time.
The images appear on a new website for the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission. The move came a day before the head of the UNâs nuclear watchdog was due in Israel for talks on making the Middle East a nuclear weapons-free zone. Israel has never admitted possessing nuclear weapons, but analysts believe it has around 200 warheads at the plant in the town of Dimona.
The pictures reveal little about the site, which has been at the centre of controversy about Israelâs nuclear programme. They are taken at a distance from the building, which is obscured in the photographs by trees and flowers and baby ducks and bunny rabbits.
Nor does the website provide any new insight into the programme, saying merely that research at the plant aims to expand knowledge of nuclear science and provide an infrastructure for the use of atomic energy.
Israel has come under pressure to open its nuclear facilities to international inspection. In December, International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) chief Mohamed ElBaradei urged Israel - a member of the IAEA - to surrender its alleged nuclear weapons. But, unlike Iran and North Korea - two countries whose alleged nuclear ambitions have recently come under international scrutiny - Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, designed to prevent the global spread of nuclear weapons. As a result, it is not subject to inspections or the threat of sanctions by the IAEA.
Israel pursues a policy of what it calls "nuclear ambiguity", saying only that it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/06/2004 12:37:08 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
US should see to it that Israel is allowed to do whatever it wants in order to survive in a hostile ARAB world. Jews are Godâs people and their mission should not be hampered by stupid UN rules.
#2
Israel's intentions, and their military, are entirely defensive in nature. Israel has never preached the destruction of iran, syria, egypt, jordan, saudi arabia, or Iraq or any other arab state. In fact, the Israelis have bent over backwards to please the arabs and bastard palestinians. Israelis want to live in peace......
arabs, on the other hand have, and continue to preach the destruction of Israel DAILY!! They teach it to their children in school, it's ingrained in their psyche to the extent that it is their only purpose in life.
Israel must have nukes for defensive purposes. arabs must never be allowed to get nukes..... They'll use them on Israel.....you know they would if they got the chance.
arabs are filthy animals.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
07/06/2004 2:46 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Jews are Godâs people
Hey, I've heard that elsewhere from a man with a beard... Heads!
Posted by: Howard UK ||
07/06/2004 4:10 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Israel has never admitted possessing nuclear weapons, but analysts believe it has around 200 warheads at the plant in the town of Dimona.
Like YEAH, they'd keep all their eggs in one basket.
#5
The Israelis tested their first in the Kalahari Desert back in the 70's after the Yom Kippor War. People forget how near a thing the YK war was. Only the absolute and unstinting support of Richard Nixon and extraordinary logistics support from the US military saved Israel from defeat. Notice that while Israel fought at least one major conflict in each decade from its creation to the test of its first A bomb, there has been relative peace since (Palestinians don't count). I don't think that they will give up their nukes any time soon.
A US government report on terrorism lists 51 âcross-borderâ attacks in Kashmir in 2003, several times less than 807 attacks claimed by India. The US report also puts the number of deaths in these attacks as less than 100, much less than the 477 deaths India claims. The report also does not blame Pakistan for ordering the attacks, as India says, but it does speak of âforeign-basedâ terrorists operating in the occupied Kashmir, and in the appendix identifies Pakistan as the location of groups like Lashkar-i-Taiba and Hizbul Mujahideen.
The report also does not mention Kashmir as the âarea of operationâ of Pakistan-based groups, as demanded by the pro-Indian American lawmakers. When questioned about the report, a US official said it was hard for them to judge âwho precisely is the guilty partyâ in Kashmir. "We have no way of independently finding out the facts," he said. Unlike Pakistan, India does not allow international observers to visit the occupied territory. All 51 attacks in Kashmir mentioned in the new report were not mentioned in the original report published in April. The report indirectly depicts the US policy towards the Sub-continent where Washington is trying to maintain good relations with both India and Pakistan and avoid taking sides on issues that may annoy either.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/06/2004 12:33:55 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
When questioned about the report, a US official said it was hard for them to judge âwho precisely is the guilty partyâ in Kashmir.
Dagestanâs prosecutorâs office has charged Abdula Aiyev, an ideological assistant of Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev who voluntarily surrendered to the authorities on Monday, with âarmed rebellionâ. A senior aide to the republicâs prosecutor, Ali Temirbekov, told Itar-Tass that Aliyev had already been questioned vigorously on the merits of the case. According to Temirbekov, Aliyev has pled partly guilty.
The part of him that still worked after he was "questioned".
Considering Aliyevâs age â he is over 70 â and poor health, the prosecutor has made him give a pledge in writing not to leave the republic. Aliyev, 72, (nom de guerre Adallo) arrived in Dagestan by plane from Istanbul. He was one of the ideological advisors to Chechen extremists, and to Basayevâs gang in particular. Criminal proceedings against Aliyev were instituted immediately after a raid on Dagestan by Basayevâs militants in August 1999. Since then, he has been on Interpolâs international wanted list and has reportedly lived in Turkey all the time.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, an editor of the republicâs weekly Youth of Dagestan, renowned public activist Gadzhi Abashilov, told Itar-Tass that two months ago Aliyev had sent a letter to Dagestani State Council Chairman Magomedali Magomedov. He asked Magomedov to help him return to home. In his letter, Aliyev apologised for what he had done, complained of a heart disease and said he wanted to live and die at home, in his native village of Urada. âAliyev has not used weapons and has not killed people. However, long before the events of 1999, he had publicly declared jihad against Russia in his newspaper The Banner of Islam,â Abashilov said. âOf course, he will be tried as a criminal. However, he will not be arrested before the trial. That is one of conditions on which he has agreed to come back home,â Abashilov added. He said the 72-year-old man was expected to publicly denounce the 1999 aggression against Dagestan by gangs of warlords led by Basayev and Jordanian-born Khattab, to make public apologies to the Dagestani people and the next-of-kin of the raid victims, as well as to pledge not to be engaged in extremist activities in the future. Aliyev could buy a plane ticket after his name had been removed from the Interpol wanted list. He arrived from Istanbul on Sunday night.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:37:08 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Two suspected terrorists recently seized by anti-terrorist police officers have strong links with an Al Qaeda operational base in Somalia, a Mombasa court heard yesterday. Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions Mrs M N Mwangi said the suspects were arrested because of their alleged links with Al Qaeda base in Somalia which finances terrorism activities. Mwangi, while briefing the court over why four men arrested in Mombasa last week should not be produced in court yesterday, said the suspects should not be released because they were dangerous people.
Qaeda hard boyz from Somalia? Yeah, that'd would fit my definition of dangerous.
The court on Friday ordered that the suspects be produced in court by the Commissioner of Police, Brigadier Mohamed Hussein Ali, to explain why they should not be released. The suspects are Abdi Rashid Abshir Hirsi, Yusuf Muzee Issa, Jarma Hassan Buju and Sahre Aden Warsame. They were arrested on different dates last week. The suspects, Mwangi said, were transferred to Nairobi on June 29 for further investigations following emerging information about their network activities in the country. A relative of one of the suspects on Friday successfully applied for their production in the court yesterday through their lawyer, Mr M Abeid.
"They're simple businessmen in Somalia, yer honor!"
Mwangi said Hirsi and Yusuf were arrested on June 24, this year at Mwembe Tayari and on being investigated it was discovered they were issued with Kenyan identity cards fraudulently. She said Jarma Buju and Aden Warsame had no documents to show they had legalised their stay in Kenya and were to appear in a Nairobi court charged with being in Kenya illegally. Mwangi revealed that there was strong evidence which links Hirsi and Issa with terrorism activities.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:23:02 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
Police have arrested 43 Pakhtunâs on suspicion of having links with late Nek Mohammad and the Al Qaeda network during an operation on Sunday night, police sources told Daily Times on Monday. Mr. Sources said these arrests were part of an operation against Afghans living in the district without legal permission. Mr. Sources said the police were tipped off that several people from the tribal areas had reached Faisalabad. Mr. Sources said the police parties raided different places and arrested the forty-three men. Mr. Sources said the arrested people belonged to Torkham, Bajoor Agency, Karam Agency, Quetta, Peshawar and Nowshehra and have been kept in custody at the Gulberg, Kotwali and Sargodha Road police stations.
Mr. Sources ought to be working for the BBC.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:17:10 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
this would seem to be significant, as part of the Pak Armys ongoing attempt to gain sovereignty over the Tribal Areas.
Rebels holding the Saharaâs most-wanted surviving terror suspect accused Libya on Monday of spoiling a deal to surrender the Islamic extremist to the West. Amari Saifi, the former No. 2 man of Algeriaâs violent Salafist Group for Call and Combat, was claimed captured by Chad rebels earlier this year as West African armed forces backed by France and the United States chased him across the Sahara. Chad rebels told The Associated Press on Monday they had turned over two of Saifiâs accomplices to Libyan agents at the two countries border on June 25. Libya, however, had failed to keep its word to turn over the two men to the West, Brahim Tchouma, an official in exile for the rebelsâ Movement for Justice and Democracy in Chad, told the AP by telephone. As a result, Chad rebels were balking at turning over Saifi himself, Tchouma said."The Libyans didnât want to cooperate, and so we have stopped our negotiations" with them, Tchouma said.
Q-man is forgetting that he's still on probation.
The rebel official also denied a widely cited report Sunday that Libya had captured Salafists in the Chad rebelsâ own regional base, as detailed in the French Le Journal du Dimanche newspaper. The newspaper claimed Salafists there were planning terror attacks on French and U.S. interests in Africa. "Thatâs a joke, but nothing coming from Libya surprises us," Tchouma said.
"Those Libyans, wotta buncha pranksters!
It appeared the Libyan claim may have been related to suggestions that at least one faction of Tchoumaâs own group was operating under the direction of the Algerian terror group, in the remote Sahara region of Tibesti. The Chad rebel official denied it, saying, "No, no! Certainly not! We will fight any suggestion that we have launched a single terrorist act." Tchouma said Monday that the Chad rebels captured the fleeing al Para and his cohorts without a shot fired. "They were very tired men, who had been wandering lost about 10 days. We captured them without combat," the rebel leader said. He identified the two accomplices surrendered to the Libyans late last month only as Nourradine Grega and a Mr. Blonde Billal. Western diplomats and others have accused the Chad rebels of shopping al Para himself among Western and African countries in search of reward money. An official with one of the countries involved in the situation told the AP on Sunday that $600,000 esd being sought for al Paraâs surrender. Tchouma said negotiations had returned now to the Algerians. "We havenât demanded a ransom, but we wouldnât refuse if one of those involved gave us something for delivering al Para," he said. For now, "heâs still in our hands, in Tibesti," a remote, mountainous area of Chad.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:04:56 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
Libyan forces have discovered a terrorist camp with ties to al-Qaeda in the countryâs southern desert, a French newspaper reported Sunday. The report did not say whether the camp was active or abandoned when it was found on June 24. The newspaper, Le Journal du Dimanche, quoted European anti-terrorism officials as saying that the camp, thought to be used by the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat, was near the border with Chad, not far from the region where Chadian rebel forces are holding one of the terrorist groupâs most senior members, Amari Saifi, known as Al Para. The rebel group has been negotiating for weeks about handing Saifi over to Algeria, where he is wanted in connection with terrorist strikes. Last month, Algerian forces waited in the desert of Niger in hopes of a transfer but withdrew when negotiations with the Chadian rebels bogged down and the Algerian forcesâ supplies ran short. Under the latest plan, Libya would play a role.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/06/2004 12:11:25 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[0 views]
Top|| File under:
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
