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Ashkelon hit by Palestinian Kassam missile
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Page 1: WoT Operations
4 00:00 Aris Katsaris [2] 
1 00:00 Alaska Paul [1] 
3 00:00 Dishman [3] 
8 00:00 Frank G [1] 
5 00:00 Gasse katze [1] 
13 00:00 Super Hose [4] 
8 00:00 Matt [1] 
12 00:00 Old Patriot [1] 
3 00:00 Super Hose [3] 
30 00:00 Super Hose [3] 
1 00:00 Super Hose [1] 
2 00:00 Super Hose [2] 
1 00:00 Super Hose [1] 
6 00:00 tu3031 [4] 
18 00:00 Super Hose [2] 
4 00:00 Celissa [2] 
11 00:00 R. McLeod [4] 
4 00:00 Super Hose [6] 
4 00:00 snellenr [5] 
2 00:00 Old Patriot [1] 
3 00:00 tu3031 [4] 
1 00:00 Chuck Simmins [2] 
23 00:00 Flaming Sword [2] 
5 00:00 Super Hose [5] 
5 00:00 snellenr [2] 
11 00:00 badanov [2] 
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55 00:00 R. McLeod [2] 
5 00:00 snellenr [2] 
7 00:00 flash91 [2] 
Afghanistan
U.S. Jets Bomb Suspected Taliban Hideouts
EFL
U.S. fighter jets and helicopters bombed suspected Taliban hideouts Thursday in Afghanistan’s rugged southern mountains following intense battles between the insurgents and Afghan troops, officials said.
Still going at it, keep the pressure up, boys.
The troops were trying to flush out the Taliban from Zabul province when the guerrillas attacked with heavy machine guns in the Chinaran mountains, said Haji Granai, an Afghan military commander. The bodies of three Taliban members were found, and four Afghan soldiers were slightly injured, Granai said as explosions boomed in the background. Two U.S. bombers and two helicopters helped in the battle, he said. In fighting earlier this week, Zabul’s governor, Hafizullah Hashami, said about 40 Taliban and three Afghan soldiers were killed in the ongoing operation to clear guerrillas from the province. Khalil Hotak, the head of intelligence in Zabul, said troops were also searching village homes. He said the insurgents were being led by Mullah Arif, who’s in contact with the Taliban’s fugitive chief, Mullah Mohammed Omar. He gave no evidence to back his claim, saying only that he had intelligence information.
Guess Omar is running the show from a safe location.
A spokesman for Kandahar’s military chief, Mohammed Yaqub, said two other prominent Taliban commanders, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah Shafiq, were leading the fighting in the area. Two fighters arrested in the area two days ago told investigators they were recruited by the Taliban and fighters loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. They said they received $650 from the two groups, Hotak said.
Advertising for fighters on MonsterJihadi.com.
Also on Thursday, Col. Rodney Davis, spokesman for the U.S. military at Bagram Air Base, just north of the capital, Kabul, said a band of insurgents attacked coalition forces Wednesday near the village of Shkin in eastern Paktika province. The guerrillas fired small arms and rocket propelled grenades at the coalition soldiers. The insurgents fled toward the Pakistani border after coalition forces fired back and called in air support. No casualties were reported.
The usual launch and run suspects.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 10:35:03 AM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Omar's not gonna let himself, so holy and important and all, be anywhere near where he could be harmed...but how can they communicate with security? A cell or satphone's gonna be a beacon for a Warthog and choppers
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 10:47 Comments || Top||

#2  Additional: A Taliban official denied on Thursday that the group's supreme ruler, Mullah Mohammad Omar, was in a region where U.S.-led forces have been pursuing fighters of the ousted regime. "He is somewhere else," Mullah Abdul Samad, a senior Taliban commander, told Reuters, when asked about a report that Omar was in Zabul province, where intense fighting has raged since Sunday. Samad, who spoke by satellite phone from an undisclosed location in Afghanistan, gave no other details about Omar. Samad said there were more than 1,000 well-equipped Taliban fighters in Dai Chopan district of Zabul with sufficient ammunition to fight for several weeks.

Using islamic math, that means around 500 starving fighters. Ammo they got plenty of. Oh, and Abdul? Just keep talking on that sat phone.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 10:47 Comments || Top||

#3  Special ops ought to set up a toll-free sat phone porn line to keep the Talibs talking...
Posted by: Seafarious || 08/28/2003 10:54 Comments || Top||

#4  Frank G wrote: ...but how can they communicate with security? A cell or satphone's gonna be a beacon for a Warthog and choppers


They must be using runners.

Erik
Posted by: eLarson || 08/28/2003 11:22 Comments || Top||

#5  thought of that Erik, but that's not real efficient, time-wise. Maybe the runners are on the "Mullah Omar Holy Escape-Cycle"?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:59 Comments || Top||

#6  The Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press agency quoted Afghan Colonel Qudratullah as saying he saw around 40 bodies on the battlefield in the Tangi Chinaran area of Dai Chopan district, part of Zabul province where the fighting has raged.
Afghan officials had already claimed 70 Taliban losses in the first three days of fighting, as Afghan soldiers and small groups of U.S.-led special forces searched for up to 1,000 militants.
While estimates vary, it could be the largest concentration of Taliban fighters since the hardline Islamic regime was ousted late in 2001, raising concerns that the movement has rallied support to undermine the U.S.-backed central government. Zabul governor Hafizullah told Reuters that at least four Taliban had been killed by around midday, before the heaviest clashes began.
Asked about reports that the Taliban's supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar may be among the fighters, he replied: "I cannot tell you about that. I am not sure. I have not seen him with my own eyes." A Taliban official denied that the one-eyed Omar, wanted by the United States, was among the fighters.
Hafizullah said Thursday's fighting began after noon (3:30 a.m. EDT) and was continuing late into the Afghan evening. "The bombing is also still going on," he said, adding that he knew of injuries to three Afghan soldiers.


Dear Taliban, thank you for concentrating your forces. Signed, U.S.A.F.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 12:40 Comments || Top||

#7  Sounds like the Taliban got a little frisky after some previous successful ambushes. Thought that the time was right for taking the area over. Now, after the loss of a good number of gunnies, they will go back to Pak, lick their wounds, and resume small scale hits on baby ducks puppies lizards civilians and police, to which they are a force to be feared.
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 12:55 Comments || Top||

#8  I'm just wondering if the Afghans we trained started talking like us?

I mean, snipe hunting, cleaning out the next of vipers, amongst other colorful language.

Those Afghan soldiers have to be proud. Scared, too, but proud.
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 12:58 Comments || Top||

#9  Erik: They must be using runners.


Elk-runners?

Sorry, slow day :-)
Posted by: Steve White || 08/28/2003 15:14 Comments || Top||

#10  Dear Taliban, thank you for concentrating your forces.

This isn't a mistake on their part. They can't help it. They can't attack coalition positions with just a handful of men, given that coalition troops have large amounts of prepositioned equipment and ammo, on-call air support and the ability to call up additional supplies at will.

The Taliban are using classic guerrilla tactics, of the kind the Vietcong used during the Vietnam War, which consisted of using local numerical superiority and surprise attacks to overcome the firepower of spread-out American units. The Taliban are handicapped by two disadvantages - no jungle canopy to conceal their movements and on-call precision airstrikes for coalition forces.

Superior resources are the reason why the Afghan troops allied with us are winning. And that is also the same reason why we're winning in Iraq. (Take it from me - while I'd like to think we're winning because of clean living and also because our collective heart is pure, that's simply not the real reason).
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/28/2003 18:06 Comments || Top||

#11  Zhang: Superior resources are almost ALWAYS why armies, especially armies from capitalist democracies, will easily prevail in such conflicts...You're right, it's not because of our hearts are pure...it's because we have a superior SYSTEM (economic, political, cultural) that incredibile resources and armies that are virtually unbeatable on the battlefield

Victor Davis Hanson's Culture and Carnage book lays this out very very plainly. Well worth the read.
Posted by: R. McLeod || 08/29/2003 1:32 Comments || Top||


Schroeder: Germany Committed to Afghan Troops
Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said that Germany was committed to deploying troops to northern Afghanistan to support reconstruction efforts, expanding the German peacekeeping role beyond the capital, Kabul.
Dateline, Paris: In related news, there was no similar declaration made by Pres. Chirac.
Schroeder’s Security Cabinet on Wednesday approved sending a possible 250 troops to the Konduz region to help maintain order and aid civilian relief organizations. The decision requires parliamentary approval. ``It has become clear that, on the one hand, the extension of the (peacekeeping) process makes sense and is necessary to stabilize the central government in Afghanistan; and on the other hand, that it is responsible as far as the security of the soldiers is concerned,’’ Schroeder told reporters. Earlier this month, Germany and the Netherlands handed over control of the 5,000-strong International Security Assistance Force in Kabul to NATO. Germany has 2,000 troops in Kabul, and Defense Minister Peter Struck has said repeatedly he favors following the United States and Britain in sending troops to the provinces of Afghanistan to bolster reconstruction.
That should help somewhat. I'd guess the plan would be to create miniature versions of Kabul in the hope the idea will spread to adjacent areas...
The United Nations, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and aid agencies have called for ISAF to be expanded throughout the country, much of which remains under the sway of feuding warlords. Still, western nations have been reluctant to take on the task. German security concerns are high following the June 7 deaths of four German soldiers in a suicide attack in the capital. Schroeder said Wednesday he hoped to send German troops to the provinces ``on the basis of an extension of the ISAF mandate,’’ keeping the peacekeeping effort separate from Operation Enduring Freedom, the U.S.-led fight against terrorism. Underlining Germany’s commitment to help the Afghan rebuilding effort, Development Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul was leaving for Kabul later Wednesday to meet with Karzai and other ministers.
Good news. Thanks, Germany.
Posted by: Steve White || 08/28/2003 12:32:27 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  In further news, Chancellor Schroeder raised the possibility of sending an additional 200 peacekeeping troops to Paris, France.

"It's easy! Last time, it took us only a few weeks."

The President of France was unavailable for comment, as he was busy surrendering to the nearest German tourist.
Posted by: Ed Becerra || 08/28/2003 2:57 Comments || Top||

#2  Well, the Krauts are doing good and it is good this see this. Now, if they can just chuck the Greens/Commies, they will be doing even better.

As good as we like to think US infantry is, German infantry are the God of War.

Hopefully, our Islamist foes will get a taste of what I am talking about.
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 7:31 Comments || Top||

#3  This looks like Germany is responding to Bush's increased commitment to rebuild Afghanistan by doubling the aid being given.
Posted by: Ptah || 08/28/2003 7:54 Comments || Top||

#4  Way to go, Germany. Thanks for helping us out, we could use it. I hope we can get our other issues behind us now and work together more.

Posted by: g wiz || 08/28/2003 8:06 Comments || Top||

#5  if theyre going to Kunduz in the north our islamist foes will never see them, as this is far from the Pakistani border.

OTOH Kunduz is a Pashtun island in a Tadjik/Uzbek sea, and so is very politically sensitive. The Germans can do good work in maintaining order, and ensuring reconstruction.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 9:13 Comments || Top||

#6  Bad,I would Imagine TGA resents being referred to a a Kraut.Hell I didn't like your use of the word.
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 9:48 Comments || Top||

#7  raptor: the wogs start at Calais.

Is that better?

Proud descendant of Millvale bar krauts and Pittsburgh mill hunkies...
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/28/2003 10:50 Comments || Top||

#8  Way to go, Germany. Thanks for helping us out, we could use it. I hope we can get our other issues behind us now and work together more.

You don't get it, do you? We are not helping you. We are helping AFGHANS so that they can take their country back from terrorists. You invaded Iraq and made it a terrorist magnet. Now your "flypaper" is killing both your soldiers and the innocent civilians. It is your mess, you have to clean it , not us.
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 11:27 Comments || Top||

#9  "You invaded Iraq and made it a terrorist magnet. Now your "flypaper" is killing both your soldiers and the innocent civilians. It is your mess, you have to clean it , not us."
Posted by: Stephen 2003-8-28 11:27:28 AM


Yeah, sure. Its a quagmire I tell ya!
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 11:37 Comments || Top||

#10  Hey Stevey! new moniker huh?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:40 Comments || Top||

#11  Stephen... Help me understand this EU mentality

A bunch of yahoos in Afganistan are worthy of Germany's help, while the US (which has never really done anything for Germany/Europe.... Ha!) is not...

Old Europe needs to get over its self-righteousness.
Posted by: ----------<<<<- || 08/28/2003 11:42 Comments || Top||

#12  Stevey needs to get over the loss of his job, due to his sick website.
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 12:58 Comments || Top||

#13  Umm, Stevie, can you refresh my memory at to which country it was that plans were drawn up and contacts made?

At least Iraq is a terrorist magnet. They're your recent ancestors w/turbans, Stevie. Europe's recent history should make it more sensitive to the dangers, not run away from it.

Because you can't.

Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 13:06 Comments || Top||

#14  A bunch of yahoos in Afganistan are worthy of Germany's help, while the US (which has never really done anything for Germany/Europe.... Ha!) is not...

They're your recent ancestors w/turbans, Stevie

How pathetic! A bunch of American cowboys...
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 13:14 Comments || Top||

#15  We are helping AFGHANS so that they can take their country back from terrorists. You invaded Iraq and made it a terrorist magnet.

Meaning, of course, that Iraq being run by fascists with lots of close ties to terrorists was fine by Stevie.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 13:15 Comments || Top||

#16  Why danke for the compliment!!!

"A bunch of American cowboys..."

One thing that gives US giggles is how you euros think "cowboy" is an insult.


Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 13:16 Comments || Top||

#17  Meaning, of course, that Iraq being run by fascists with lots of close ties to terrorists was fine by Stevie

FYI Iraq was a dictatorship.

"Close ties to terrorists": Yeah, your intelligence agencies are still trying to find those links, as well as WMDs.
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 13:28 Comments || Top||

#18  Why danke for the compliment!!!

cowboy
n 1: a hired hand who tends cattle and performs other duties on
horseback [syn: cowpuncher, puncher, cowman, cattleman,
cowpoke, cowhand, cowherd]
2: a performer who gives exhibitions of riding and roping and
bulldogging [syn: rodeo rider]
3: someone who is reckless or irresponsible (especially in
driving vehicles)

Source: WordNet (r) 1.7
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 13:31 Comments || Top||

#19  Stevey Stevey Stevey....


Obviously you've never watched a John Wayne movie. Sad really.

Cowboys = John Wayne. IT AINT AN INSULT FRENCHIE!
Posted by: Valentine || 08/28/2003 13:47 Comments || Top||

#20  More good news: Schröder and Fischer have just announced to run again in 2006. Why is this good? Because this basically excludes Fischer's candidacy for the European Foreign Ministry and of course they'll both go down in 2006 like lead in water.

Stephen (Stevieboy?), you you haven't got a f*** clue. Don't say "we" when you are referring to Germans. Rantburgers can call me "Kraut" anytime, I know how they mean it. But with you on "my side", no, thank you. Get lost.

Of course we Germans help Afghans, but we are there to make the world safer from terrorism that may strike us Germans as well as Americans.

I'm convinced that we will help in Iraq, too. Probably not with combat troops but I see progress with other things. Try to read comments in serious ("fair and balanced") German newspapers. Germans did not agree with going to war, but most intelligent comments agree that "toldya so" schadenfreude would be completely stupid. The whole world needs Iraq to be a success story. Failure is not an option. The Middle East in new terrorist chaos is not an option. While the Germans understand this, the French may (still) think that "humiliation" of the U.S. is a good thing for French gloire. You may not read much about this but Germans are not amused about the French Hamas politics. The French are about to seriously piss us off with their non-constructive capitulard politics.

It is not about replacing U.S. troops with U.N. troops. There is nothing the blue helmets could do better in active fighting against Baathist/islamofascists/terrorists, but a lot they could screw up. In competent hands, administration, help and rebuilding Iraq is something the U.N. could be good at (did I say "in competent hands"?). It is about the world to see that Iraq is crucial to security in this (and probably the next) decade. Of course, no taxation without representation. Who helps (and pays) will have a say in matters, too. That's why the U.N. role in Iraq needs to be better defined. The U.S. can live without U.N. blessing, Germany cannot.

And I think we could need a bit more optimism here. How many American troops were predicted to be killed in the "siege of Baghdad"? 5000? How much was this "bloody, unwinnable" war supposed to cost the US? Did I hear 200 bn? 1 trillion dollars? Every soldier killed is one too much, but less U.S. soldiers have been killed in guerrilla/terror attacks in Iraq than people in a single blast in Bali. Reality check please.

And I have met "cowboys" in Texas (and elsewhere). It will forever beat me why this word could be used as an insult.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 13:52 Comments || Top||

#21  Obviously you've never watched a John Wayne movie. Sad really.

Be careful Valentine: excessive television-watching:

1. Induces cognitive passivity;
2. Stifles/displaces creativity, reflection and imagination;
3. Shortens attention spans and increases hyperactivity;
4. Cultivates visual processing skills incompatible with print-based skills.
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 14:06 Comments || Top||

#22  True German Ally

Thank you for the insult.

Don't say "we" when you are referring to Germans

Why? only you have the right to speak for Germans?

Of course we Germans help Afghans, but we are there to make the world safer from terrorism that may strike us Germans as well as Americans

That is the same reason we are not in Iraq

Every soldier killed is one too much, but less U.S. soldiers have been killed in guerrilla/terror attacks in Iraq than people in a single blast in Bali.

So? Are you going to change your mind when the number of US/British soldiers exceed 200?

The U.S. can live without U.N. blessing, Germany cannot

???

Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 14:15 Comments || Top||

#23  Amen, TGA.

And Stevey, my pathetic little friend.... I am proud to be a 'cowboy' and a 'yankee'

The other rantburgers are right... these aren't derogatory terms to most merkins...
Posted by: ----------<<<<- || 08/28/2003 14:17 Comments || Top||

#24  FYI Iraq was a dictatorship.

Really? And that means it wasn't run by fascists in what way? Hint: Hitler and Mussolini were both fascists and dictators.

"Close ties to terrorists": Yeah, your intelligence agencies are still trying to find those links, as well as WMDs.

Those links are found everytime a Saudi, Syrian, etc. is killed/captured in Iraq. Funny how the Fedayeen Saddam were mostly "non-Iraqi Arabs", and how many members of the PLO and associated groups lived in Baghdad, supported by the government.

(BTW -- John Wayne made movies, not television shows.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 14:19 Comments || Top||

#25  So are you German, Stephen? I hope not.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 14:25 Comments || Top||

#26  Thanks, Germany.
Posted by: Matt || 08/28/2003 14:31 Comments || Top||

#27  Robert Crawford

BTW -- John Wayne made movies, not television shows
Fair enough. However, I believe most people (incl. you?) have seen his movies on TV.

And that means it wasn't run by fascists in what way? Hint: Hitler and Mussolini were both fascists and dictators.
OK. Still Iraq was not a fascist country.

Those links are found everytime a Saudi, Syrian, etc. is killed/captured in Iraq. Funny how the Fedayeen Saddam were mostly "non-Iraqi Arabs"

Any web links you may provide will be helpful. Or should I just believe your faith-based intelligence sources? And by the way since you are on it, could you show me some evidence that links 9/11 to Iraq? This would be a great service for American government, too!

...[how] many members of the PLO and associated groups lived in Baghdad, supported by the government.

Is this the reason the U.S. has invaded Iraq? They are more in Lebanon, Syria, West Bank Gaza...

Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 14:33 Comments || Top||

#28  They are more in Lebanon, Syria, West Bank Gaza...

Wait your turn.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 14:40 Comments || Top||

#29  Germany is a friend of the U.S. Friends don't let friends killed in stupid wars which have nothing to do with the WoT and provide no safety to American people or the world in general.

Wait your turn
Considering the situation in Iraq it will be a long wait.
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 14:46 Comments || Top||

#30  Any web links you may provide will be helpful.

It's been discussed here. Sorry you weren't paying attention.

And by the way since you are on it, could you show me some evidence that links 9/11 to Iraq? This would be a great service for American government, too!

It would, but I never made that claim. Why are you asking me to find evidence for a claim I never made?

BTW -- Iraq was a fascist country. I realize that, in your limited experience, a Republican administration is "fascist", but the Ba'ath party was (is, in Syria) a direct descendant of Germany's Nazi party. Like Germany's Fascists, their ideology was based strongly on race (pan-Arab nationalism) and state direction of industry (though not necessarily state ownership).

But why am I bothering to tell you anything? You won't bother to learn from anything I say.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 14:47 Comments || Top||

#31  Baathism was a form of panarabic nationalism that degenerated into extremely corrupt bloody totalitarian dictatorship with mafioso structures. There was little terrorist activity in Iraq because Saddam and his cronies had a monopole on that.

Nobody ever said that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. The idea of eliminating Saddam was about eliminating the nightmare of terrorists meet WMD and causing a disaster that would make 9/11 look like a exploded pop corn machine.

And of course Stephen would be one of the first to complain: "Why didn't anybody try to prevent it?"

It's not the terrorists running about we need to worry most: It's the network, the money, the endorsement by rogue nations that makes them so dangerous. Without this we will still have some terrorists. But they won't be able to go much further than the occasional car bomb. And they probably have to steal the car first.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 14:57 Comments || Top||

#32  Stephen, please define Ba'athism without using either "fascist" or "Stalinist". Follow up by explaining the distinctive characteristics of the three political traditions. I'm honestly curious to see if you can do it in a coherent fashion.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/28/2003 15:10 Comments || Top||

#33  We are not helping you.

Sorry if I offended you Stevie but I have bad news, you are helping us and the Afghanis. It's a positive step in both ways. Americans will appreciate and Afghanis will appreciate it. You might not want American appreciation but that's too bad.

"Close ties to terrorists": Yeah, your intelligence agencies are still trying to find those links

Saddam gave Abu Abbas a home right in the middle of Baghdad. Terrorist link: check!
Posted by: g wiz || 08/28/2003 15:14 Comments || Top||

#34  The positive charecter of the movie "cowboy" was not only epitomized by John Wayne. Who can forget Alex Karras in Blazing Saddles or Jack Palance in City Slickers.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 15:26 Comments || Top||

#35  Frankly I have a different cowboy in mind - Just got my three-DVD set of Clint Eastwood - the man with no name (actually he was called Joe in all three, but, I digress) series (remastered): Fistful of Dollars; For a Few Dollars More; and the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. "Stephen" made me think of one ;-)
BTW for other Clint-o-philes, his other DVDs are being released in bunches, some remastered and with special features. Got my Amazon order in for the Dirty Harry set...Go ahead stevey Stephen, make my day
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 15:39 Comments || Top||

#36  A bunch of American cowboys"
Thanks,Stephy.
I would much rather be refered to as a corageous,hard working,take no crap from ass-hats cowboy then be called a cowardly,Euro-weasal wennie.Try studing a little history of the American West,weasal.
"Be careful Valentine"...Stephy.take your nose out of a pysycho-babble book and look around dumb-ass.

No offences to you,TGA.You are a good friend and much appreciated ally.
Thanks,Valintine.Are you American?
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 15:47 Comments || Top||

#37  "You may not read much about this but Germans are not amused about the French Hamas politics."

no i havent read aboout it (though i wouldnt be surprised, and would be pleased) - all ive seen is that UK is taking the lead on banning Hamas "political" wing, and France opposed - nothing on German position.

I should just read DW english site, but links are appreciated.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 15:51 Comments || Top||

#38  LH, the German government hasn't been very vocal about this, I'm referring to politically interested and involved Germans I'm talking with (and some printed comments in the press).

Of course I cannot speal for all Germans (there is still Stephen) and maybe I chose the people I associate a bit more carefully than others.

Unfortunately Schröder/Fischer still treat Chirac/Villepin with velvet gloves. I hope that will change.

Schröder is still waiting for a White House invitation. No hugs needed. But not refusing to meet people who are expected to help you out with troops and money would help, don't you think?
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 16:42 Comments || Top||

#39  TGA wrote: It is not about replacing U.S. troops with U.N. troops. There is nothing the blue helmets could do better in active fighting against Baathist/islamofascists/terrorists, but a lot they could screw up.

TGA makes an important point: UN troops versus US troops in Iraq is not the issue. Competent troops that can ensure order, swat those who would disrupt order, help those who wish to rebuild Iraq, and protect the lives of the innocent is the key requirement in Iraq. Whether the UN troops would be German, Pakistani, Indian or Samoan is less important than whether they would do the job as it needs to be done.

To Stephen: Assuming for the moment that you're not Stevey Robinson, you should do a little research: the Ba'ath Party got its start in 1942 and was consciously modeled after the Fascist Party in Italy. It borrowed heavily from Franco and from the Nazis and fused all that with a pan-Arabism. It was and is essentially fascist in its ideology and character. Saddam, long an admirer of Stalin, borrowed Stalin's heavy grip on the mechanisms of power and his use of terror as an instrument of the state after he staged his coup and took power in Iraq.
Posted by: Steve White || 08/28/2003 16:57 Comments || Top||

#40  TGA - this from AP

'"German officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, noted that Hamas provides a lot of social services for Palestinians — but that after the latest Mideast peace setbacks, Berlin would not oppose a harder line.

"There's movement in several EU countries, including Germany, toward banning the political wing and freezing its assets," said Muriel Asseburg, a research fellow at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin.

"It's a difficult debate, and a decision is not easy." '

Not quite the UK position, but better than France and Belgium.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 17:00 Comments || Top||

#41  "Of course I cannot speal"

Speal = cross between english speak, and German/old english "spiel" to sing (see modern english "gospel"). See also "sprechtstimme" (sp?)
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 17:03 Comments || Top||

#42  lol... just a typo LH, no Freudian slip.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 17:12 Comments || Top||

#43  "I'm referring to politically interested and involved Germans I'm talking with "

Of course the great thing about forums like this (and some more international ones) is to get some insight into what real people are thinking and talking about, without mediation of governments and the press. One accepts that the folks involved are not statistically representative. I can well believe that Germans are wrestling with this, in ways that go beyond the careful considerations of diplomats.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 17:14 Comments || Top||

#44  well i could shpiel about it for some time, but I wont.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 17:15 Comments || Top||

#45  Here's a longer story (including your quotes) in SFGate.
I know that I don't speak for all Germans (our new German(?) friend Stephen reminded me of that painfully) and sometimes I may post a bit of wishful thinking, too.

Some of it seems to come true after some weeks. Did anyone notice that Al Quaeda doesn't seem to have a "political wing"?
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 17:33 Comments || Top||

#46  Steve White , Mitch H. , Robert Crawford

The Baathist ideology combines elements of Arab nationalism, anti-imperialism and socialism. Its slogan is "Unity, Freedom, Socialism" -- unity among Arabs, freedom from Western imperialism and socialism of a different style than the economic system Marx envisioned.

In reality this was a one-man regime, it was more of a personal dictatorship in which we found the cult of Saddam. And yes it was in the name of the Baath Party and yes there was some kind of ideology but the ideology was whatever Saddam says it was.

g wiz
Germans are in Afghanistan to help Afghani people. If Americans appreciate Germany for that, it is fine with me. Abu Abbas was an old man who has no connections with a terrorist organizations for the last 10 years. Is this the best you can think of?

raptor
I would much rather be refered to as a corageous,hard working,take no crap from ass-hats cowboy then be called a cowardly,Euro-weasal wennie.
OK raptor. You are not a "cowardly, Euro-weasel weenie". You are a "courageous, hard working, take no crap from ass-hats cowboy". Feeling better now?

Robert Crawford
Your president made this claim about the link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. What? Don't you trust him?

By the way, I am not Stevey Robinson. I do not know who is. Looking at your reaction, he must be someone who is less “patriotic” than you are. Probably a liberal (gasp!).
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 17:46 Comments || Top||

#47  ...but the ideology was whatever Saddam says it was.

Reminds me of someone... The rest of the definition as well.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 17:55 Comments || Top||

#48  Okay folks, time to go. Although the level of civility was somewhat disappointing, it was nice chatting with you. I know some of you think I am anti-American, Saddam-lover, weenie European. Well... you can think whatever you want. I like America(ns) and more importantly the principals that the U.S. has promoted for the last 5 decades. However, I fear that with 9/11 at least some of you have forgot those principals and turned into an angry HULK. It is bad for you, for your soldiers, for your economy, and it is bad for the world. You have spend and continue to spend your financial and military resources to a target that remotely (if any) threatened you. All these talks about providing support (WMD, finance, etc.) can be made at least several other countries in the world. Now, you are over-stretched and have no capability to prevent a threat that may come from another place (say N. Korea, Syria, Iran. By the way, where are those "neo-cons" who were talking about invading other countries in the list?).

I hope someday you come to your senses. In the meantime everybody will suffer. Those soldiers fighting in Iraq and Iraqi civilians trying to survice in that "terrorist magnet" will suffer more than you and me who have the luxury to discuss these issues on the internet while drinking coffee.

Last word: a "true ally" is not the person who tells you what you want. Just because someone criticizes you doesn't mean that he is your enemy.
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 18:23 Comments || Top||

#49  The last post is mine,
S.
Posted by: Stephen || 08/28/2003 18:24 Comments || Top||

#50  Thanks, True German Ally, for your reassuring words.

Of course I meant no disrespect; in fact I meant great respect by the moniker Kraut. And I regard the term Cowboy applied to me to be in fact a great compliment. I am from Oklahoma and I am a true blue honest to goodness Oklahoma State University Cowboys fan. GO POKES!

And I stand by my statement about German infantry being the finest in the world. From what I understand, most military experts would agree with me that despite the presense of Green/Commies in the German government, the German Army has maintained a standard of excellence in military matters that goes back many, many decades. It is truly a comforting thought knowing our Kraut allies will be there with US in helping to eradicate Afghanistan of Islamists.

I post here because many of the people who post here are in fact very irreverent towards things politically correct. Here, we get to call things as we see them; not how we think others want them to be seen. Doing the latter means to lie.

So, Raptor I guess you are right now feeling about as out of place as Jerry Falwell at a Hamas terrorist planning meeting. So be it.

You can call me Cowboy, you can call me Redneck, but whatever you do, don't call me after 2200.
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 18:35 Comments || Top||

#51  "And of course Stephen would be one of the first to complain: 'Why didn't anybody try to prevent it?'"

Somehow I doubt that he and his kind would complain. My suspicion is he would be very happy.

"UN troops versus US troops in Iraq is not the issue"

Just as an aside, there was an article in the Fincial Times (London) a couple of weeks ago about the outsourcing of military duties to private military contractors such as DynCorp, Vinnell Corp. (responsible for training the Iraqi police) etc. I bring this up because there was an interesting photo in the Polish magazine FORUM showing German troops in Kabul consulting with DynCorp's security personnel (who look uncannily like US special forces did in the early campaign in Afghanistan; remember those beards and baseball caps?)
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 18:39 Comments || Top||

#52  Stephen, if you had followed my postings here for just a few weeks you would know that I'm not the person who tells others here what they want to hear. Far from it. Nor are you required to.

But I see an ally as someone who stands by his friend even IF he doesn't always agree with him. And helps those who have been protecting him for half a decade. Without asking how much it would cost.

What would YOU have proposed to do after 9/11? Waiting for the next one? Maybe in Berlin?
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 18:43 Comments || Top||

#53  badanov, I wouldn't know exactly how good German infantry is today. The Bundeswehr has to live with serious financial cuts and outdated material. And of course, no real combat experience. But they won't run away when things get tough.

Actually I'd say the Bundeswehr is better at fixing things than breaking them. Which may be exactly what is needed. In Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 18:50 Comments || Top||

#54  "...a target that remotely (if any) threatened you."

Well, see, here's where you and most people who post here, differ. Pretty much every argument pro- or against the war boils down to this issue. BTW, aren't you happy that Saddam can no longer terrorize his own people?? That brings no joy to you? Or do the anti-American blinders prevent you from seeing any good whatsoever that the US has done?

"...have no capability to prevent a threat that may come from another place..."

You misunderestimate our American friends. (yes, that is a word. And I use it with pride.)
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 18:51 Comments || Top||

#55  Stephen: You wanted web links about non-Arab Iraqis fighting in Iraq? And you don't want them from, how did you put it, "faith based intelligence sources?" How about a few of these...there are many many more:

Syrians join Iraq 'jihad'

Palestinians signing up to fight for Baghdad


Some Arab volunteers returning home: report


Hussein's tumble jars long-held Arab beliefs

Posted by: R. McLeod || 08/29/2003 1:55 Comments || Top||


Arabia
Australia Asks for Review of Ban on Sheep Shipload
EFL
Australia called on Saudi Arabia to reconsider its rejection of a shipload of 57,000 sheep yesterday, claiming Saudi veterinarians had made a mistake when examining the live cargo.
"I don’t care what you say, those sheep are virgins!"
The sheep arrived in the Red Sea port of Jeddah on Friday, but Saudi veterinarians ruled that six percent had the disease scabby mouth, exceeding the Saudi limit of five percent. The disease led to imports of Australian live sheep being banned in Saudi Arabia for nine years from 1991. The viral disease, which causes cold sore-like scabs on the sheep’s mouth, can cause lesions on the arms of humans who kiss fondle handle infected animals.
Sounds icky.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 10:22:23 AM || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  kiss fondle ? Steve, that's Ba-a-a-a-a-aad
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 10:52 Comments || Top||

#2  The description of this disease sort of makes anthrax (fairly common in sheep) attractive...
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:45 Comments || Top||

#3  One would think that some kind of gratuity would have taken care of the measily 1 percent extra head of scabby mouth. Or maybe the usual honorarium was not paid upon delivery.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 13:02 Comments || Top||

#4  I'm just glad not to have been the Quality Control Analyst that took the samples.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 15:11 Comments || Top||


Religious Police Beaten Up in Yanbu
Police in Yanbu have started investigating a case of 13 men who attacked members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in front of their offices. The men were attempting to rescue a group of individuals the commission had arrested, Al Madinah reported.
Tried to bust their friends out of the slammer.
The commission had swooped on two men and two girls who were not related to one another on the beach there, the paper said.
Burka Beach Party Busted, film at 11.
On returning with their charges to their headquarters, they were attacked by the 13 and one of the girls escaped. Police later arrested four of the attackers and are still searching for the others. The commission released the two men and the girl still in their charge into the custody of their families.
Had enough of the holy police? Hope it turns into a trend.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 10:15:25 AM || Comments || Link || [5 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "13 men who attacked members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in front of their offices"

Now that braught on a smile.
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 11:18 Comments || Top||

#2  "When you're a Jet..."
Posted by: mojo || 08/28/2003 11:18 Comments || Top||

#3  "What do ya mean I don't support your system? I go to court when I have to!"
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 11:29 Comments || Top||

#4  But if the men and girls had been related to one another, there would have been no swooping.

There's something wrong with this picture...
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:47 Comments || Top||


Britain
Blackout Hits Large Area of London
Power went out in parts of London and in southeastern England Thursday, two weeks after New York and other parts of the Northeast were hit by a blackout.
There were serious disruptions on the London Underground and on some train lines. Utility officials said the power appeared to be out in parts of south London and in Kent, which is southeast of the city.
Hope this is just more human error, right?

Once is coincidence. Two's possibility...
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 2:28:07 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Thunderstorm?
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 14:42 Comments || Top||

#2  Bulldog, you out there? Hows Fairford?
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 14:46 Comments || Top||

#3  Wasn't there some snarky article from England (or someplace else in Europe) posted recently about the power outage in the US?

Hopefully nobody will get hurt over there, but I admit that I am amused by this.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 08/28/2003 15:06 Comments || Top||

#4  Odd... I wouldn't have expected the British electrical system to have been de-regulated...

Seriously, hope things get back up-to-speed quickly. The Underground isn't place I'd want to be without power (although I'd fear being trapped in Harrod's a bit more).
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 15:23 Comments || Top||

#5  Al-Aska, first I knew of this was via Rantburg! Lights are still round here.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/28/2003 15:26 Comments || Top||

#6  How does the saying go?

"Once is accident. Twice is coincidence..."
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 16:35 Comments || Top||

#7  .... three times is global warming"

;)
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 17:06 Comments || Top||

#8  TGA, another job for Siemens, perhaps? :-)
Posted by: Matt || 08/28/2003 17:20 Comments || Top||


Europe
Russia’s Kamov says to sell helicopters to Turkey
The news is already a couple of days old but was not a topic yet
Russian aircraft maker Kamov said on Tuesday it was on track to supply 145 of its Ka-50-2 combat helicopters to Turkey over six years. "We have practically initialled the contract with Turkey and we will finalise it by the end of 2003," Sergei Mikheev, the company’s chief designer, told reporters. He did not say how much the contract was worth. Military analysts put the price of one Ka-50-2 at between $12 million and $15 million. Turkey, a NATO member, chose Kamov over its U.S. competitor, the Bell Helicopter division of Textron Inc.
This sounds good, though I am not sure whether or not the Kamov is superb to the king cobra helicopter
"It did not suit Turkey that the Americans insisted on supplying fully completed helicopters without any Turkish role in building them," Mikheev said. "Under our deal Turkish companies will be involved in work on the cockpit."
I’d say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved like the Israelis do
Israel, which cooperates with Kamov on avionics, will also take part in the Russian-Turkish consortium.
My feelings aren't hurt. On the whole, U.S. military equipment has out-classed Russian equivalents for at least 30 years, though at the individual equipment level they occasionally make just as good a product (see debate, AK versus M16). The philosophies of design and manufacture have been different, with the U.S. going for top performance, the Russians going for a simpler approach to ease maintenance. Depends on what the Turkish military needs, on the criticality of the need, and on how much they need to involve local industry...
Posted by: Murat || 08/28/2003 8:54:42 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I’d say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved like the Israelis do
I'm sure you speak for all the Turkish patriots who read Rantburg.
Posted by: Domingo || 08/28/2003 9:51 Comments || Top||

#2  Each copter comes with complementary sledgehammer for precision control-tuning!
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/28/2003 10:32 Comments || Top||

#3  "I’d say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved like the Israelis do."

Why even bother? Why not simply ask Allah (may bees pee upon him) to build them for you?
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 10:34 Comments || Top||

#4  The Americans don't want you to learn their technological know-how.The Russians don't care,because...
Posted by: El Id || 08/28/2003 10:48 Comments || Top||

#5  Remember how well the MIG-21 cooperation between India and Russia has gone. The Indian built MIGS, um...., keeping falling down.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/28/2003 11:01 Comments || Top||

#6  true Chuck, but it seems to be a maintenance/pilot quality issue as much as the quality of the initial product...
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:07 Comments || Top||

#7  Depends on what the Turkish military needs, on the criticality of the need, and on how much they need to involve local industry...
Well admitting to I also think that American technology has the upper hand, but there is the matter of how much of that technology is made available when the US sells these to second countries. For example one of the most important parts of a helicopter is its main mission computer. If there is a restriction on the source codes of that computer and the buyer is compelled not to adjust it to his own needs, then he will be limited to the level the producer grants him to. You can turn the YF23 for instance into a harmless flying object by limiting its main mission capabilities. So at the end I think the Kamov Ka-50 will be a much more effective weapon since the Russians allow Turkey to build the main mission computer of that helicopter.
Posted by: Murat || 08/28/2003 11:11 Comments || Top||

#8  Russian helicopters are supposed to be pretty good. Just make sure you have plenty of spare parts and follow the maintenance schedules.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 11:26 Comments || Top||

#9  More power to ya',Urat.Just ask the Republican Gaurds how well that Russian Equipment works.
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 11:46 Comments || Top||

#10  Cold War is over, so I'm not breaking a sweat at any of this. Know this, that if Turkey was buying from the USA, there'd be sweet-heart deals and discounts made under the table that would be paid for by the American Taxpayer.

Turkey considered cost versus quality, chose cost, and appears to be willing to live with the consequences and benefits. Like steve implied, low maintenance is not the same as no-maintenance, so don't skimp.
Posted by: Ptah || 08/28/2003 12:58 Comments || Top||

#11  Flaming Sword? Flaming ..., rather. A Moslem's Allah is my God -- so you insult me. I see no need for an infantile and, surely, counterproductive religous insult. And an extremely serious insult. This ain't political correctness, it's common sense and common courtesy. An apology would suffice. Let's see if you have it in you.
Posted by: Highlander || 08/28/2003 14:16 Comments || Top||

#12  A Moslem's Allah is your God? Then you must be a Muslim, because, no intelligent Christian or Jew I know would accept the teachings of Mohammed (pedophile and murderer) as the word of their God. I am sick of that 'Religions of the Book' crap and same god bullshit. "Allah" the Moon God, calls for Christian and Jewish blood. That your God?
Posted by: Swiggles || 08/28/2003 14:41 Comments || Top||

#13  Highlander, I'll happily apology WHEN:

1) Muslims throughout the world begin to VOICIFEROUSLY CONDEMN attacks upon unarmed citizens;

2) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that those who teach the doctrine of "Convert the 'infidels' and if you can't convert them KILL THEM" are dead wrong;

3) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and yes, even WOMEN have rights and aren't obligated to obey a religious code they have no allegiance to;

4) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that THEY THEMSELVES are responsible for their own lifestyle (or lack thereof) and that their knee-jerk instinct to blame EVERYTHING on the Americans and/or Jews is counterproductive.

Until those events take place (and I'm not holding my breath), I will continue to not only "insult" the f*cked-up relic known as "Islam", but I will do everything in my power to undermine it and those that adhere to it.

Are we clear?
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 15:09 Comments || Top||

#14  America doesn't do anyone any favors by selling products to contries that don't have the infrastructure to support. The Navy sold some surplus Frigates to Pakistan in the late eighties. No problem with that except that these frigates were equipped with P fired boilers that are difficult to opperate. These ships are undoubtedbly tied to the peir, while many navies throughout the world continue to sail Sumner Class destroyers from WWII. These destroyers could take abuse and were very foregiving with respect to missed planned maintenance checks. Soviet equipment generally performs well and hopefully will suit Turkey well. In the next 20 years, while these choppers are in service, the lives of various NATO troops other than Turks might depend on their performance.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 15:22 Comments || Top||

#15  Russians allow Turkey to build the main mission computer of that helicopter.

If you think Russia will give you their top-notch stuff, you're living in a dreamworld, which you are by the looks of things.
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 15:50 Comments || Top||

#16  I have to reluctantly agree with Murat here.. Russian gear may be second-string compared to top of the line American weapons, but when properly maintained, it's good enough. And Turkey (unlike certain un-named Arab nations) doesn't usually have problems with people claiming that "repair work" is for the common rabble.

*cough*cough*SaudiArabia*cough*

Additionally, Soviet designed gear isn't as highly computerized, and therefore is more difficult to "cripple". And when steps ARE taken to hobble the performance of a weapon, it's easier to reverse it.
Posted by: Ed Becerra || 08/28/2003 15:59 Comments || Top||

#17  I’d say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved... Ummm...not quite, Murat. The Ka-50-2 is the product of a joint effort by Israel Aircraft Industries' Lahav Division and the Kamov Company. Kamov is responsible for the helicopter airframe while IAI is responsible for the avionics and weapons delivery system. All you're getting is warmed over 2nd hand US technology delivered via Israel. You're still dependent on the US supply chain...go ask the Chinese what happened to their Phalcon AWACs that Israel was building for them.
Posted by: Watcher || 08/28/2003 17:39 Comments || Top||

#18  Flaming Sword>

Then you must be a Muslim, because, no intelligent Christian or Jew I know would accept the teachings of Mohammed (pedophile and murderer) as the word of their God. I am sick of that 'Religions of the Book' crap and same god bullshit.

BWAHAHAHAH!! LOL! Oh my, speaking of intelligent Christians and Jews having a problem with Islam because Mohammed was a "pedophile and murderer". What shall we speak of Moses then? Who was angry with his men, not because they killed all adult males among the Midianites, but because they had spared the women and little boys instead?

Numbers-

31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
----

Now, now, what do you think this "keep alive for yourselves" means, Flaming Sword, concerning the women *children*?

And "kill every male among the little ones" ? Sure sounds like a genocidal murderer to me.

What do you think now of the teachings of the Torah, supposedly written by Moses, Flaming Sword?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 08/28/2003 22:01 Comments || Top||

#19  Aris, a small technicality: what you quoted there was a recounting of a story, not a general "teaching" or instruction on how to live.
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 23:33 Comments || Top||

#20  Aris: Raphael hits it here. I'm trying to figure out your point. You seem to be saying that both Moses and Mohammed were pedophile-murderers. If so, are you also then saying that Mohammed and Moses were equivalent figures in their religions? Otherwise, why make the comparison?

Mohammed's teachings are Islam's core. He IS Islam. I don't think you can make that analogy to Moses. Jesus, maybe, but not Moses.

I think you swung and missed on this one...
Posted by: R. McLeod || 08/29/2003 2:20 Comments || Top||

#21  No, we aren't clear. I am; you aren't. Here's a tutorial. Religion spiritual and religion temporal are quite different things. Your rant about the church temporal does not relive you of bigotry when attacking the church spiritual. Ever read any philosophy or history?

Are we clear now?
Posted by: Highlander || 08/29/2003 10:09 Comments || Top||

#22  "You seem to be saying that both Moses and Mohammed were pedophile-murderers. If so, are you also then saying that Mohammed and Moses were equivalent figures in their religions? "

Yes. Both received the word of God, and both are said to have written it down.

"Mohammed's teachings are Islam's core. He IS Islam.. I don't think you can make that analogy to Moses. Jesus, maybe, but not Moses. I think you swung and missed on this one... "

Pfft. No, it's the Qu'ran that's Islam's core, not Mohammed. Qu'ran is the analogue of Jesus, as Qu'ran is the Word of God given form, and Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

My analogy holds. Mohammed is said to have received the word of God and wrote it down, Moses is said to have received the word of God and wrote it down. Islam says there's been no prophet greater than Mohammed, Judaism says there's been no prophet greater than Moses.

And both of these seem like killers and conquerors in my eyes.

Jesus and Christianity has no clear analogy, I'm afraid, as for the Christians Jesus *is* God, not just a man and prophet as Moses and Mohammed are said to be in Judaism and Islam respectively. Christians have the twain Peter-and-Paul, perhaps. But even there the analogy isn't perfect.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 08/29/2003 11:39 Comments || Top||

#23  No, Highlander, you remain as murky as ever. I will NEVER show any respect (whether real or feigned) for that brutally violent and repressvive collection of dictatorial orders collectively referred to as "Islam".

You and Aris may try as you like to make equivalency arguments, but the bulk of Christian and Jewish believers do NOT remain silent when terrorists attack unarmed civilians, nor do remain silent when the more radical of their adherents begin to teach the doctrine that non-believers must be killed or converted.

There is NOTHING good that comes from Islam, nor can much be said for those who profess to believe it while sitting idly by and watching their "brethren" commit unspeakable and indefensible travesties.
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/31/2003 15:43 Comments || Top||


Fifth Column
Harrison Ford slams Bush policy, guns
Edited for relevant content
Another Hollywood asshat shoots off his mouth overseas
In an interview in Madrid, Harrison Ford became the latest Hollywood actor to criticize the Bush administration while on foreign soil. "I’m very disturbed about the direction American foreign policy is going," said Ford, according to the Australian Associated Press. Ford, in Spain to promote his new release "Hollywood Homicide," noted U.S. post-war casualties have exceeded those during the actual conflict. "I think something needs to be done to help alleviate the conditions which have created a disenfranchised and angry faction in the Middle East," said the 62-year-old Ford, the Australian news wire reported.
I thought we were? Y'mean killing the bloodthirsty bastards doesn't count?
The worst part about these rants is that the perpetrator has such a shallow understanding of what’s really happening, but because of their "stardom" think they have to spew. They would do much better studying the issue first, rather than after ten thousand disappointed fans chew their butts for their stuipdity, vis-a-vis the Dixie Chicks.
"I don’t think military intervention is the correct solution," he said. "I regret what we as a country have done so far."
We shoulda sent hookers?
While Ford has starred in many shoot-’em-up thrillers, he said he abhors America’s liberal gun laws. "I’m very troubled by the proliferation of arms, at the fact so many people in the United States carry guns," he said, according to the AAP. "It obviously contributes greatly to the crime problems we have. I’m sure gun laws should be strengthened in the United States. I just don’t know the correct mechanism."
There! Y'see? He's not a total idiot. I completely agree. I think that you should have to have a license for any weapon with a caliber of greater than 37mm. I mean, it's only common sense...
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/28/2003 3:29:22 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I think something needs to be done to help alleviate the conditions which have created a disenfranchised and angry faction in the Middle East

The only way to do that is by turning the US into an Islamic state you douchebag.

Can somebody make sure that guy's toupe isn't on too tight
Posted by: g wiz || 08/28/2003 15:35 Comments || Top||

#2  Dammit!

Which hollywood 'star' has the brain today?
Posted by: GregJ || 08/28/2003 16:08 Comments || Top||

#3  Apparently, senility has started to set in. Poor guy.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 16:34 Comments || Top||

#4  I think something needs to be done to help alleviate the conditions which have created a disenfranchised and angry faction in the Middle East.

Sounds good to me--is Mr. Ford advocating we overthrow all of the Islamic-basket-case governments in one fell swoop or continue with our one-at-a-time strategy?
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 16:37 Comments || Top||

#5  I’m very troubled by the proliferation of arms, at the fact so many people in the United States carry guns," he said, according to the AAP. "It obviously contributes greatly to the crime problems we have.
That's why crime is at a multiyear low ?
Posted by: Domingo || 08/28/2003 16:49 Comments || Top||

#6  Actors are left-wing by inclination. I suspect, however, that a lack of patriotism is endemic only to actors in the Anglo-Saxon countries (the US, Britain, New Zealand & Australia). Joan Chen, a Chinese actress who's now based here, was quoted as saying that Tibet rightfully belongs to China. Her allegiances are pretty clear.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/28/2003 17:10 Comments || Top||

#7  It's really only surprising when one of these vastly wealthy, highly insulated celebrities isn't out of touch with most of us working stiffs. Being surprised at the attitudes of Ford, Geffen, Streisand, and the others is like being surprised at the attitudes of the railroad barons or British nobility in an earlier age...
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 17:14 Comments || Top||

#8 
"I’m very troubled by the proliferation of arms, at the fact so many people in the United States carry guns," he said, according to the AAP.

Except, of course, when they happen to be on his bodyguard detail...
"It obviously contributes greatly to the crime problems we have.

Yeah.
Thanks to gun laws, criminals have more guns that citizens.
I’m sure gun laws should be strengthened in the United States. I just don’t know the correct mechanism."

I believe the mechanism you're looking for is the eradication of the Bill of Rights, you skeleton jockey.

Why, oh why, are the pretty ones always so dumb?
Posted by: Celissa || 08/28/2003 17:25 Comments || Top||

#9  Lord have mercy!

I thought Ford was one of the saner celebs. Goofy me.
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 18:50 Comments || Top||

#10  It looks like when you lay down with Callista Flockharts, you tend to get some crazy on you.

People who make their living pretending to be something they are not are not people I'm the slightest bit interested in listening to in regards to the future of civilization. If I want costume jewelry, pretentious dialog and loud incomprensible noise masqarading as substance and thought, I'll go to TGI Fridays for happy hour.

Id be more interested in his opinion if he stayed a carpenter.
Posted by: Frank Martin || 08/28/2003 19:20 Comments || Top||

#11  What do you expect from someone who willingly kissed Anne Heche on the mouth? Tuna, anyone?
Posted by: Ned || 08/28/2003 19:21 Comments || Top||

#12  Hey, look! He's in Spain talking to Australians.
Don't worry, Harry. Nobody back in America will ever know.
To tell you the truth, the way his career's going lately ("Hollywood Homicide") there's not much more he could really do to damage it.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/28/2003 21:28 Comments || Top||

#13  I would have thought that making an entire nation line up and vote on a ballot with only one candidate with all the votes inspected immediately by a Baath Party member would have represented a form of disenfranchisement.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:50 Comments || Top||


Great White North
Terror probe focuses on colleges
EFL
Ontario Public Security Minister Bob Runciman has ordered a sweeping investigation of the province’s 500 career colleges to ensure they’re not aiding illegal immigration. Mr. Runciman, who said he’s "lost confidence in federal authorities to do the job properly," announced the investigation yesterday following revelations that 19 men linked to a suspected terrorist sleeper cell in Toronto entered Canada on fraudulent student visas.
Oh, Ethel! My pills!
The province’s commissioner of public safety, Jim Young, will begin working immediately with the Ministry of Colleges and Universities to look into the background of private college operators, Mr. Runciman told Global National. The suspected members of a Canadian al-Qaeda sleeper cell have been detained for at least another month after immigration judges ruled yesterday there were sufficient grounds to hold the men while counter-terrorism investigators examine 25 boxes of documents and 30 computers seized during recent raids.
Computers are good, they never completely erase files.
Most of the 19 Pakistani and Indian men who are being held obtained visas by enrolling in the defunct Ottawa Business College, based in the Toronto suburb of Scarborough. Court documents show the school operated as little more than shell, charging $400 to $500 for acceptance letters that could be used by foreign students.
We have the same problem here in the states.
"How many others have been issued student visas who could pose a threat to the security of the province?" Runciman asked, accusing the federal government of failing to properly check the backgrounds of foreign students, including those who attend publicly run colleges and universities. "We have to do followup that if indeed they’re legitimate students, that they’re attending classes and doing what they said. "If they’re not attending classes, their visas should be cancelled ... and they should be very quickly removed from the country."
When did Ashcroft take over Canada?
Investigators, who launched a probe in February called Project Thread, said the men displayed a suspicious pattern of behaviour that has raised the possibility they were members of an al-Qaeda terrorist cell. Members of the group were caught at the Pickering Nuclear Power plant at night, while another overflew the reactor while training at a flight school in Durham, Ont. Other members were linked to the theft of radioactive material and one had ties to a fundraising front for al-Qaeda.
Nah, nothing suspicious here.
But lawyers accused the government of hyping a simple immigration matter into a national security scare, conceding that while their clients might be guilty of immigration fraud, they were not terrorists. Tarik Shah, who represents Mohammad Akhtar, one of the men arrested, said there was nothing to tie his client to terrorism and called the allegations "too vague, too general ... What has Ottawa Business College to do with security of Canada?"
How about providing a cover for your client?
A Canadian Muslim organization demanded the government immediately release the men, whom it said were the victims of racial profiling reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
Jackbooted Canadians???
Mr. Dickenson, however, said the government was simply being prudent and that it would be irresponsible not to act on the concerns raised by the intelligence information. He said Mr. Ahmed had been granted a visa in 1999 to study at Seneca College, but that he had dropped out. Instead of going home he then sent the immigration department letters claiming he had switched to Ottawa Business College. In December 2002, he sent the government a letter from the college that said he had been attending class and was getting good grades. But, he never attended a single class and the school had shut down in June 2001.
Ooops!
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 1:12:40 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Rather than deporting them. Shackle them together and enroll them in a 4 year Women's Studies program. Mandatory attendence.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:34 Comments || Top||


India-Pakistan
Hardliners take over Jaish-e-Mohammad
A bit more info in the fracturingof Jaish-e-Mohammad, between the ISI loyalists and the hardliners.
When Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Maulana Masood Azhar announced the formation of his new outfit Khudam-ul-Islam last week, he was basically trying to conceal his diminishing clout over his cadre. The fact is, militant and intelligence circles say, the Jaish has split over whether or not to attack US interests in Pakistan. Pitted against Masood is his erstwhile right-hand man, Maulana Abdul Jabbar alias Maulana Umer Farooq, who’s wanted by Pakistani authorities in connection with deadly attacks on a Taxila hospital and a missionary school in Murree. Unlike Masood, Jabbar refuses to kowtow to the military establishment’s order of not attacking US interests in Pakistan.

It’s Jabbar who now controls the dominant faction of Jaish, renamed last year as Jamaat-ul-Furqaan. The need for a new name arose because the US state department had placed the Jaish on its terrorist watchlist and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had promised in his speech on January 12, 2002, to ban extremist organisations. (For all practical purposes, though, Jamaat-ul-Furqaan is still popularly known as Jaish.) The decision to float Khudam is Azhar’s ruse to portray he has not lost control over the Jaish — and has instead chosen to establish a new outfit. Apart from these two factions, militant and intelligence circles say the Jaish has broken into many splinter groups which have chosen to defy the military establishment’s diktat of not attacking US interests. These smaller groups have gone underground, fanning tremendous anxiety among intelligence circles. It’s feared that these Jaish dissidents, largely anonymous and beyond control, have spread countrywide and are desperate to avenge the Taliban’s fall and the arrest of Al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan.
Could be another Saudi Arabia situation, where the government will crack down on the hardcore Jihadis attacking the state, while continuing to allow the mainline Jihadi industry continue operating.
Jaish insiders accuse Masood and his cohorts of misusing the organisation’s resources to enrich themselves. For instance, Masood, who hails from a lower-class family that resided in a slummy area of Bahawalpur, Punjab, moved to the city’s posh Model Colony. He and his cohorts began driving around in Land Cruisers and Land Rovers along with their retinues of gunmen. The Jabbar faction alleges that Masood also appointed his relatives and friends to supervise the Jaish’s mushrooming assets—seminaries, publications, offices and bungalows. His blatant favouritism and lavish lifestyle irked those who had spent grim years in Afghanistan and Kashmir.
All that will change when he's in charge, of course. Oh. Wait. He is in charge...
Murmurs of dissent first surfaced at the time Masood decided to remain silent over Musharraf’s U-turn on Afghanistan post-September 11. Several prominent Jaish members favoured retaliatory attacks against US interests to pressure Musharraf against supporting Bush. Masood refused to relent.
I think if he had at that point Perv might have had him killed. As it was, he went under house arrest, along with Qazi and Fazl and other dignitaries...
Many Jaish members quietly went over to Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban; some even brought back Arab fighters to Pakistan and provided them shelter. Though these members didn’t leave the Jaish, insiders say differences in approach inaugurated a period of ’cold war’ in the organisation. Not willing to wait any longer for Masood’s approval, the dissident group launched a spate of attacks on what it called US interests. The more violent of these were on a Christian school in Murree and a missionary hospital in Taxila. Early 2003, the police arrested Saifur Rehman Saifi who was responsible for Jaish’s upper Punjab operations. During interrogation Saifi revealed that he had been asked by Jabbar to launch attacks, including suicide missions, on US interests. This disclosure prompted Masood to begin the purge. By June, Jabbar had been expelled, as also the outfit’s Karachi chief, Abdullah Shah Mazhar. In July, Azhar wrote to the Punjab governor informing him that he had expelled 12 Jaish leaders, that he was no longer responsible for their action and that they were sectarian terrorists who should be arrested instead of being allowed to regroup.
Oooh. Turned them in to the Feds, did he? Tusk tusk. It's just not done in the best jihadi circles...
Abdullah Mazhar Shah has been quoted in a newspaper reports as saying, "Seven out of 10 members of the Jaish supreme council, which Maulana Azhar claims favoured him, have dissociated from him. I am one of them... Azhar has nothing to do with the party now. Our main difference with Azhar was that he deviated from the cause of jehad — the party was created for waging jehad to liberate Kashmir. Unlike Azhar and his masters in the Pakistani intelligence agencies, we are not ready to compromise on that."
The Jaish is supposed to have 10000 members, so this is not an inconsiderate number who might "go rogue"
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 08/28/2003 3:21:59 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq
Iraqis: Al Azhar Fatwa regarding council ’’shameful’’
Iraqi parties blasted al-Azhar - Islam’s most revered authority - at the backdrop of its Fatwa banning Arab and Islamic countries from dealing with the Iraqi Governing Council, calling the US- backed body illegitimate. The Iraqi parties have also rejected the decree from the Arab-world’s highest-ranking Sunni Muslim institution, describing it as a “shame”. They suggested that it would be more useful for al-Azhar not to indulge in political issues that concerned Iraqis.
"Mind your own business."
On August 19, al Azhar issued a Fatwa banning Arab and Islamic countries from dealing with Iraq’s interim Governing Council, saying it lacks religious and political legitimacy. It described the council as been imposed on the Iraqis by the will of the occupation, and does not conform to Islam’s established principle of Shura. But Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the grand sheikh of al-Azhar mosque and university, said on Wednesday the committee that issued that fatwa had no right to make such judgements and would be brought to account. Tantawi told Reuters the clerics would be called to task for issuing the unauthorised ruling. The Iraqi Wifaq party criticized al Azhar’s fatwa, reiterating that only the Iraqi people have the right to choose their political destinity. “Only the Iraqi people have the right to accept or reject the governing council
 neither al Azhar or anyone else for that matter have the right to interfere in internal Iraqi issues,” said Ibrahim al Janabi - Wifaq’s secretary general. Speaking to Al Bawaba via telephone, in what seemed to be a jab at Egypt, Janabi said, “al Azhar is being pressed by certain powers
 we are sorry to hear of such political Fatwas from the highest ranking Sunni institution in the Arab world – it [the Fatwa] has nothing to do with religion and it is shameful and completely rejected.”
Fatwas have something to do with religion? When did that start?
“Doesn’t Israel have an embassy in Cairo? Why doesn’t al Azhar issue a Fatwa banning the presence of the embassy on Egyptian soil? Is what they [Egyptians] do legitimate and what we do not?” asked Janabi, suggesting that al Azhar focus on religious matters rather than political ones.
I don’t know anything about Ibrahim al-Janabi, but he sounds good at least.
For its part, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq expressed its regret at the fatwa, which they described as stupid inappropriate. “The [al Azhar] Fatwa is irrelevant. We are sorry to see the governing council - which represents all the Iraqi people and its parties - not being able to secure recognition amongst the Arabs, while Arab countries have ongoing ties with Israel,” Hamed al-Bayati, the party’s spokesperson, told Al Bawaba via telephone from his office in London. He added, “It is very regrettable to hear such a Fatwa coming from al Azhar
 the Arab countries have already started dealing with the governing council without recognizing it. They are dealing with the situation as it is,” said Bayati, referring to the warm welcome the council’s delegation received in the Arab countries it recently visited.
Standard Arab procedure, denounce in public, deal in private.
The temporary head of the governing council, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, expressed his satisfaction with the result of his Arab tour that included seven countries and a visit to the Arab League’s headquarters in Cairo. The tour included visits to the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The delegation was supposed to visit Yemen as well, but was postponed at the last minute.
"Are you nuts? Yemen is too dangerous."
He described the success of the visit as an implied - yet unofficial - recognition of Iraq’s interim Governing Council. The Arab league has refused to recognize the Iraqi body officially.
Like I said, standard Arab procedure.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 11:07:29 AM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  This is exactly the point: any fatheaded mullah/imam can issue a fatwa on any subject he likes, regardless of any familiarity with the subject. And these morons act like it means something.

Freakin' hopeless. "Game over, man!"
Posted by: mojo || 08/28/2003 11:16 Comments || Top||

#2  The Egyptian government-appointed head of Sunni Islam's highest seat of learning Thursday suspended a senior cleric who had called on Muslim states to boycott Iraq's US-appointed Governing Council. Al-Azhar chief Sheikh Mohamad Sayyed Tantawi said Egyptian cleric Sheikh Nabawi Mohamad al-Ish "does not represent Al-Azhar."
"No Egyptian cleric has the right to pass verdict on the affairs of another country," Tantawi said in a statement carried by the official MENA news agency. "I cannot overstep the Iraqi sheikhs and proclaim fatwas (religious edicts) on matters that concern them. Iraqi ulema (clerics) have to pronounce their opinion on this matter as they are more familiar with their own affairs."


Humm, egyptian government controlled cleric backing off? Somebody get a phone call?
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 11:21 Comments || Top||

#3  Oooh, an "Up Yours" moment to their elitist elders.

They're catching on quickly, aren't they?

I'm so proud!

Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 13:14 Comments || Top||

#4  The mullahs, muftis, ad nausium, have issued so many Fatwas that we now have Fatwa Inflation, so the value of the individual Fatwa has declined precipitiously.

The world has heard so many Fatwas that it is suffering from Fatwa Fatigue.

Ye Olde Fatwa™ ain't what it used to be
Many long years ago...
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 13:17 Comments || Top||

#5  apparently this was a "rogue" Fatwa, and the cleric who issued it is now in trouble with his university.

AFP:

'The highest seat of learning for Sunni Islam said it would investigate a senior cleric who called on Muslim states to boycott Iraq's US-appointed Governing Council, but it denied reports he had been fired.

"No decision was taken to suspend or lay off Sheikh Nabawi Mohamad al-Ish. There will be an internal investigation only," a spokesman of the Cairo-based Al-Azhar mosque and university told Egypt's official MENA news agency.


Earlier, an official from Al-Azhar said Ish was suspended from his functions there, and the government-appointed grand sheikh of Al-Azhar, Mohamad Sayyed Tantawi, said the cleric "does not represent Al-Azhar." '

Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 15:46 Comments || Top||

#6  So what's the penalty for a rogue fatwa? Double secret probation, no ice cream, they take away your bullets, they make you work with Shaky, the alcoholic bomb maker? What's the deal?
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/28/2003 22:58 Comments || Top||


General blames US for Iraq ’chaos’
The former commander of Nato forces in Europe, General Wesley Clark, says American policy has "created chaos" in Iraq.
A smart guy, he discovered what we already knew
General Clark said the fundamental problem was the US tendency to fight states to get at "terrorists", rather than take on the "terrorists" themselves. "We may have given Osama Bin Laden the recharge he needed to rebuild his arsenal and his ranks," he told the BBC’s World Today programme. General Clark is being encouraged to become a democratic candidate for next year’s presidential election, but has not yet announced if he will stand. His criticisms coincided with a warning from the US administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, that the country would need tens of billions of dollars to rebuild its shattered infrastructure. The bill to overhaul essential services would reach almost $30bn, on top of the estimated $1bn per week the US already spends on its forces in Iraq, he said.
Should be no problem, isn’t that the so-called amount saved by Turkey’s refusing?
President George W Bush has pledged "no retreat" in Iraq, saying US-led forces are making good progress in restoring order and insisting Iraq is part of the wider war on terror.
I wonder which part that is, Felluce?
But General Clark expressed reservations about waging war on a country that he did not believe was "particularly linked to terrorism" or an "imminent danger". He said the war should have resulted in restored Iraqi relations with the UN and Nato, finding weapons of mass destruction and ensuring Iraq would "not become a hotbed of international terrorism".
What, you @!# democrat! You call Bush and Powell liars, I saw Powell showing enough valuable proof on satellite photos!
"We are drawing in terrorists. We have created chaos in Iraq," he said.
Uhhhm, blame it on the Turks, with a northern front this wouldn’t have happened
America should have concentrated its efforts on the "fundamental problem" of fighting "terrorism", he argued. "What I have seen again and again is a tendency to want to attack states to get at terrorists rather than dealing with the harder problem of getting the terrorists themselves."
That statement doesn't make any sense. Sorry. Terrorists don't float in the air, and they need money to eat and to buy guns and ammunition. They also need money for bus tickets, so they can spend all their time going from one country to another to blow things up. Having money and bases implies support from countries or organizations on the ground — also not floating in the air or somewhere out beyond Jupiter.
He said America should rethink its strategy on Iraq, and work to ensure Iraqis could take back control of their borders, security and reconstruction.
???, give back the oil? Never, our fight on terror will continue "no retreat!"
General Clark said he would announce in the coming days if he would stand as a democratic candidate in next year’s presidential elections. The situation in Iraq is fast becoming an issue for next year’s presidential election, the BBC’s Justin Webb reports from Washington. Mr Bush’s speeches have been branded "empty rhetoric" by opposition candidates, and his popularity ratings have fallen.
Those of us who support him, on the other hand, don't regard his statements as "empty rhetoric," though we do regard most of the pronouncements coming from the Dems — Kerry and Dean, particularly — as self-serving and politically motivated. We also realize that Bush's "popularity" is going to fluctuate — we also realize that there's a strategy behind his actions.
The number of American deaths since the end of major combat operations on 1 May has now surpassed the number killed during the war - 139 compared to 138.
That's a meaningless milestone. The actual destruction of Sammy's regime was the easy part. We said prior to the war that once Sammy was gone the Bad Guys would be rushing in to try and snatch the bone from our jaws. I thought there would be a lot more clumsy Iranian involvement and not so much clumsy Saudi involvement, but none of the outline of what's happening is coming as a surprise. If I'm not surprised, and most Rantburgers aren't surprised, why would Bush be surprised? And if Clark's surprised, he's sure as hell not presidential material.
Posted by: Murat || 08/28/2003 10:56:13 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Seems to be a pattern: Dems going to overseas media outlets to criticize the U.S. actions? Don't they know we're gonna hear about it - from aholes like the BBC? Clark's an ass - actually got fired by Clinton for the Russian fiasco at the airport..perfect for Hillary's VP
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:03 Comments || Top||

#2  "What I have seen again and again is a tendency to want to attack states to get at terrorists rather than dealing with the harder problem of getting the terrorists themselves."

Because, of course, the terrorists exist independently of, and outside of, states.

How did this guy make general? Ass-kissing?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 11:10 Comments || Top||

#3  Fred, when does Murat reach his limit?
-------------------------------------------
101st-sponsored clinic opens in Zumar
--------------------------
Humanitarian assistance to Iraqi orphanage
------------------------------------------
TO ALL: Most interesting. This is a response to a message that said rules of engagement (ROE) were causing Army deaths and did not apply to the Marines.

No it's not true. The ROE are dictated by CJTF-7, not individual commanders. They are the same for Army and Marines, not to mention the Navy and Coast Guard. We're required to be armed at all times.

The two magazine rule is that you must have at least two magazines on your person at all times, this helps when you're engaging the enemy. Most people carry at least three pistol mags and seven rifle mags respectively. Both Army and Marine units openly display their weapons.

They both shoot when threatened also. Several attacks have been thwarted by Army and Marine personnel shooting first. We're also much better shots than the enemy. They tend to spray and pray, while we tend to just shoot them.

The Army has more attacks because their AOR encompasses Baghdad and the surrounding areas where the bulk of the attacks have taken place. I've noticed the press does a poor job in reporting our response to these ambushes. To put it plainly, we kick butt! The usual 'real' report reads: "Five IZ (Iraqis) fired AK-47s and RPGs at patrol (or convoy), soldiers (or marines) returned fire resulting in 3 KIA, and 1 WIA, 1 escaped. RPGs missed, AK fire ineffective, no US casualties."

We do take some casualties, and that is not a good thing, but we are very effective at counter-firing at the ambushes. Aggressiveness has proven very effective.

The enemy is primarily made up of insurgents from Iran and Syria who hire Iraqis to attack coalition soldiers, not disgruntled Iraqis who are mad that their power is not on all day yet. They provide them with AKs and RPGs and send them on their way with a promise of cash after the attack. They even give motorcycles to kids which they get to keep if they ride by a coalition checkpoint and drop a grenade.

After one such attack, we found out how easy it was to shoot people off motorcycles. You can hear them from a long way off and shoot them long before they get within grenade dropping distance.

We have good leaders, and they're responding aggressively and well to the attacks, they emphasize that everyone must engage the enemy whenever they show themselves. The kids here are excited to do their job, and they do it well, with the proper weapons and lots of ammo. We go out with M2 50 cals and Mk-19 automatic grenade launchers mounted on our vehicles. We carry SAWs, M-203s, M-16s, and M9s. We also carry several different types of grenades and use everything as needed.

We read press articles on the net that have no resemblance to reality every day. Just last week I read an article where a car bomb killed fifteen American soldiers, destroyed three armored vehicles, and one tank at the Baghdad Airport. Our unit there was surprised when we told them about it since they've been there the whole time and never heard any explosion. The press lies, they make things up, and they misrepresent things to forward their own ideals. It would be funny except that so many people believe them.

Take care,

John H. Taylor, LTC
CA Babylon, Iraq
The Braden Files via Howard Veit
---------------------------------------------
Any Credibility that Al Jazeera may have had before today has been smashed. Today a demonstration was to be held to demand the release of an Imam who was a close personal friend of Saddam and used his Mosque to store weapons and as a Refuge for Baath Party members. The Demonstration was to be broadcast live on the Arab News Network and they wanted to get real exclusive News. They wanted Americans to fire on the crowds. In order to ensure that we would, they PAID people to carry weapons in the crowd and to fire them at us in order to provoke a Violent Response from US troops.

Thing is, this isn't the first time Al Jazeera has PAID for the spreading of Anti-American Sentiments in this country or even this city. And these people are so desperate for money right now that they will do anything for it. A little boy who used to hang out at the Gate of the Civilian/Miltary Operations Center (C-MOC) and has since we occupied the building was given money and photos of Saddam Hussein and told to run through the streets shouting Anti-American slogans. Now, this boy had until that day been at the C-Moc every day, hanging out with American Soldiers who treated him pretty well. When stopped by us and asked why he was shouting such things, he replied that two men had paid him to do so. ... The two men turned out to be Local Al Jazeera correspondents.
From Great Sage on location in Iraq. Via el Jefe, Glenn
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/28/2003 11:10 Comments || Top||

#4  Chuck, Murat is like Tony Foresta at Bill Quicks' site - scroll through the dirt and you won't get any on ya
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Chuck, Frank close your eyes on my postings fine, also close it on the BBC etc. In fact you may lock yourself up in your bombshelter and shut down your TV and PC. Focus your mind only at your own perceived "truth" and go for it, America is doing well on all points. :)
Posted by: Murat || 08/28/2003 11:27 Comments || Top||

#6  Re: "John Wesley Clark" -- how bad a general are you if you get fired by Bill Clinton for being a wimp? (BTW - I read his book, and the subtitle should have been "Mom, those guys are being mean to me!")
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:36 Comments || Top||

#7  Incidentally, a useful link on the number of deaths in Iraq can be found here, wherein the author points out that there have been only 63 *combat* deaths since May 1 (the rest have been accidental).
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:39 Comments || Top||

#8  *John* Wesley Clark? sorry -- must have been channeling Pete Seeger or something... He's just Wesley (the kid from ST:TNG).
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:50 Comments || Top||

#9  Sneller, I actually met Clark during the Kosovo FIASCO and he is a wimp! If we had him in charge, the ground war would begin in about three months. We did things right in Iraq (vis-a-vis bombing) and Clark is just pissed that he never got a chance to WIN a war (Kosovo was/is not a WIN). None of the current crop on 'Monday Morning Gernerals' can honestly defend that the war was not a HUGE Victory. This rabble that are bombing and shooting since the end will not be around for much longer. I hope he does join the race, that would make the 2004 Election so much sweeter. Note: Clark is not exactly someone that can pump up a crowd (trust me).
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 08/28/2003 11:53 Comments || Top||

#10  Wesley Clark -- the Democrats idea of what a general should be. Pathetic.
Posted by: Ned || 08/28/2003 11:53 Comments || Top||

#11  --The situation in Iraq is fast becoming an issue for next year’s presidential election, the BBC’s Justin Webb reports from Washington.---

And the BBC knows. Why, they'd never lie or "sex up" a story, would they???
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 13:19 Comments || Top||

#12  I shall take Cyber Sarge's word, and the known record of CNN, BBC, and Al Jazeera, over your Fatwatical Assertion That You Utter The Truth, Murat.

SOP: Declare your opponent's news sources as FALSE, your own as the TRUTH, and try to sound convincing. When this happens, the red flag goes up that this guy DOES NOT WANT YOU to think on your own, go anywhere else for possible contradictory information, or draw any other conclusions.

The proof of the pudding will be in any successes and failures based on any actions one takes in response to whoever they believe. General Clark's record speaks for himself: If following his own advice didn't help him that much, it certainly won't help me if I follow it.

It is interesting to note that you can glean useful information from any data source. The Kicker is that the data source may be displeased that you may get information from them that isn't what they INTENDED you to get (such as the nature, alignment, or reliability of the data source for starters). Its a form of deconstruction, although in the old days it was called a BS detector.

Right now, I'm learning more about Murat than he'd probably prefer.
Posted by: Ptah || 08/28/2003 13:26 Comments || Top||

#13  I think it's appropriate to mention that General Clark was fired from his position as head of NATO because he screwed up the Kosovo operation so bad, and had no backup plan when the primary (air interdiction) proved to be a fiasco. The direct result of his mis-calculation was the deaths of about 20,000 people. I wouldn't follow this "general" to the bathroom.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/28/2003 16:00 Comments || Top||

#14  General Clark is being encouraged to become a democratic candidate for next year’s presidential election

Well there's your explanation right there. You can't be a democratic candidate while praising Bush at the same time.
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 16:04 Comments || Top||

#15  The problem is, Frank G, that you don't know it's a Murat until you get to the bottom. The first three comments were kind of cryptic (or uninformative, if you like). When I got to the fourth one I thought, "Hey, this is bullshit! Must be Murat." And so it proved. But I wasted entire seconds of my life finding that out.
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 08/28/2003 16:26 Comments || Top||

#16  One final link, Murat.

USA Today

the money quote:
No one is keeping economic statistics now. But consider the Al-Rewad Exchange in Baghdad, one of dozens of firms that will wire money into and out of the country. Omar Tabra, a heavy-set man who presides over the business, says $6 million in cash is moving through the operation every day, evenly split between incoming and outgoing transfers.

"In the short run, I can't see improvement because of the attacks on coalition forces and sabotage," Tabra says. "But in the long run, you have all the potential for improvement in this country: oil, land, manpower, Persian Gulf ports. What else do you need for an economic boom?"

One place that is already booming is the Shorja market in central Baghdad. The noisy open-air market is now as crowded and busy as at any time in the past.

Fawziya Hamza, 50, a Baghdad housewife, looks through a stall where shelves are filled with shampoos and tables are piled high with blocks of soap. Life here, she says, is "getting better and better."

Muhsin Hamid Akar, 32, has been doing a brisk business selling satellite phones from a small store in another part of downtown Baghdad. He urges his fellow Iraqis to be patient: "A man gets the flu, it takes seven days to recover. After 35 years of dictatorship, what can anyone expect?"
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/28/2003 16:28 Comments || Top||

#17  The man--and I use that term lightly when referring to Clark--was fired by Clinton for being a military fuck-up.
And we're supposed to accept this assclown as a credible source on ANY subject?
Please.
I'll take the word of our soldiers and not the anti-American BBC or a Turk with a known hatred of my nation, or any nation that isn't bending over and taking it in the rear from the frothing Muslim jihadi hoardes.
Posted by: Celissa || 08/28/2003 17:50 Comments || Top||

#18  I'm not a Clark fan, but expect he will be used by the Dem's as a VP candidate for credibility as "strong on defense" I bet he has a horde of medals awarded for his performance in staff roles or medals that his XO wrote the justification for.

I don't get the Kerry as a "War Hero" deal. Didn't he destroy or discard his medals in a war protester. Seems like you have to adopt either the "Hero" or "Protester" persona and kind of stick with one or the other.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:25 Comments || Top||


Iraqi Kurds, Ethnic Turks Sign Agreement
An Iraqi Kurdish faction and an ethnic Turkish group in northern Iraq have signed an agreement aimed at preventing ethnic violence after clashes left 11 people dead last week, an Iraqi Kurdish official said Thursday. The agreement was signed between the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the Iraqi Turkmen Front in the city of Kirkuk on Tuesday, said Bahros Galali, the Ankara representative of the Kurdish group. "We need peace and stability in the region," Galali said. Ethnic Turks have blamed the PUK for the two days of fighting, but the Kurdish group has said it was the work of Saddam Hussein’s sympathizers.
That’s what I’d be doing, dress like a Kurd and attack Turkmen and change clothes and shoot up some Kurds.
Under the agreement, the sides established a joint committee to bring the culprits to justice and emphasized the right of all groups to "live in peace and in a brotherly manner." The sides promised financial assistance to the families of those killed and agreed to maintain a dialogue.
Dialogue is better than gunfire.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 8:59:32 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Don't forget Murat's buddies in the Turkish Spec Ops, sneaky snaking around up there.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/28/2003 11:13 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
Quagmire
So you want to talk about a quamire, aye? Well, ok then, I’ve got a beauty for you. How about Chechnya?
This is opinion, but I'll leave it up for its hard news content. Chechnya is an area we should cover in more detail...
The Russians aren’t just suffering through little dink and dunk attacks that come sporadically. They don’t have their Muslim Terrorist enemies running away at the mere thought of having to face the toothless mighty Russian army. After four years of fighting, the Russians are facing more frequent and more effective attacks than they have ever faced before. And this so soon after getting bitch slapped out of Afghanistan — where, by the way, we kicked ass.
And we're still kicking it...
We’ll take ourselves a little look-see at how bad things have been for the Russian military over just the past week or so.
(Q) -- Recently the Russian military lost over 100 soldiers in a single attack near the town of Avturi.

(U) -- They’ve been in fire fights with Muslim Terrorists in the regions of Shatoi, Vedeno, Nozhai-Yurt and Urus-Martan.

(A) -- Convoys have been attacked near the village of Harsenoy.

(G) -- Fifteen Russian soldiers were killed in an attack near the village of Samashki.

(M) -- A helicopter, several armored vehicles and several more military trucks have been destroyed or crippled.

(I) -- In just the last week almost 400 Russian soldiers have been killed or wounded.

(R) -- The past ten days have been more destructive to the Russians than the past 5 months have been for America and the Coalition in Iraq. Should Russia give in to the Muslim Terrorists in Chechnya? Can America afford to allow a Russian defeat there? Why don’t we hear endless reports from CNN and MSNBC about the Chechen quagmire? About the continued and mounting losses that Russia is facing? About the string of successes the Muslim Terrorists are having against Russian military forces? About Russia’s failure to bring peace to their own soil after 4 bloody years of fighting?

(E) -- If you read the linked article you’ll also see that Chechen civilians are killed at increasing rate, because the war in Chechnya is not just a Russian war, but a civil war.
The Russians aren’t losing one or two soldiers here and there. They’re having a dozen or several dozen killed in each attack. Yet they keep fighting, even though they can little afford to fight economically.

Russia’s fight needs to be our fight. While I still get a joyful feeling when I hear about the Russians getting beaten up like this — after they way they helped Saddam illegally and aided in the liquidation of his NBC stockpiles — I know that America can not afford to allow a Russian loss in Chechnya. If Islamic Terrorists win in Chechnya they will be emboldened throughout the world. They will have a rallying cry, a source of motivation and a boost to their moral. Money and men will flow into their ranks at an increased rate and our own fight against Islam will be that much longer and harder.

So you see, there really is a quamire involved in the War on Terror. It just isn’t in Afghanistan or Iraq.
--
Originally posted on Yankee Jihad

Those are some good points, though I should point out that Chechen Press and the more readable Kavkaz.org routinely carry inflated accounts of the successes of the Chechen bandits mujaheddin. I prefer Gazeta.ru, which has pretty good coverage without being hysterical or forcing one to wade through ITAR/TASS English. Moscow Times is sometimes okay, other times its Caucasus coverage comes from Associated Press, which seem weird to me.

Chechnya's a wedge issue between Russia and the U.S., and it shouldn't be. There's no difference between Chechnya and Afghanistan as far as the enemy's concerned. The same prayers are offered every Friday in Mecca, the "charities" raise money for both, and the al-Ghamdis and their work-alikes turn up in both places. Zarqawi's been there, the Soddies send men and money — the only thing different is that the Bad Guys are fighting the poorly trained and equipped Russian conscripts instead of the 101st or 82nd Airborne. They didn't fare quite so well when they were at Konduz.

The Bad Guys are also doing their best to export jihad to the surrounding areas, none of which want anything to do with it. Dagestan was invaded, Ingushetia's being subverted, and North Ossetia's being casually trampled whenever the Chechen killers please. Basayev's a nasty sonofabitch, regardless of the number of times the Washington Post whines about "human rights abuses" by the Russers. The Nord-Ost Theater episode was enough to settle things once and for all for me — but then, I suppose my attention span's too long. I'd make a lousy journalist or diplomat.

Yeah. I agree. Russia's stuck in a quagmire. The way out of the quagmire involves retaining their legendary ruthlessness, which is called for when dealing with the Chechen banditti, but also reorganizing their military and treating Chechnya as a reconquered territory. There are still lots of nice areas around Khabarovsk that need logged. With hand saws. In winter.
Posted by: Tom Schaller || 08/28/2003 9:57:29 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  If Islamic Terrorists win in Chechnya they will be emboldened throughout the world. They will have a rallying cry, a source of motivation and a boost to their moral.

What I don't understand is, why don't the Russians get serious with them? It seems like the Russians should be able to smash them pretty ruthlessly. The Russians don't give a damn about world opinion, and they don't care about civillian casualities when there is a job to be done, (not even their own like when they had to shut down the theather seige in Moscow). So what is going to happen there? Do the Chechens have a chance?
Posted by: g wiz || 08/28/2003 22:16 Comments || Top||

#2  The Russers are serious with them. Their problem is the Russian military. I haven't looked in detail in ten years, not since the Soviets folded, but then it was staff-heavy and initiative-light. Many of the officers are very good, very professional -- but the organizational structure left room for lots of time-servers and hacks, too. The enlisted ranks were just about hopeless, not because of the quality of inductees, but because of the structure.

Former Russian Major used to post here. I'll bet he could tell some fairly hair-raising stories.
Posted by: Fred || 08/28/2003 22:54 Comments || Top||

#3  Their problem is the Russian military

Very true. The problem is also corruption. Most of the Russian conscripted troops come from provincial town and cities. You won't see many from Moscow and St. Petersburg. Would you have the heart to fight knowing that you were sent there only because your family didn't have the resources to bribe certain officials?
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 23:27 Comments || Top||

#4  "Basayev's a nasty sonofabitch, regardless of the number of times the Washington Post whines about "human rights abuses" by the Russers."

The whining about tens of thousands civilians dead in Grozny, you mean?

Perhaps *you* like it when a Christian nations kills tens of thousands of Muslims, because they are vile infidels after all, but I don't see it that way.

I have no reason to believe that the Russians are one shred better than any Islamic terrorist in the region.

Chechenya *should* be a wedge between Russia and the civilised world.

"The Nord-Ost Theater episode was enough to settle things once and for all for me — but then, I suppose my attention span's too long. I'd make a lousy journalist or diplomat."

The Nord-Ost Theater where the Russians killed terrorists and hostages alike without much if any discrimination you mean?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 08/29/2003 13:24 Comments || Top||


Middle East
Islamic Jihad maintains presence in Egypt
The Palestinian Islamic Jihad has sought to maintain a presence in Egypt.
Presumably on the off chance Syria could become too hot for them...
Western intelligence sources said Jihad has established a network in Cairo as well as the Sinai Peninsula. They said the Jihad presence is meant to smuggle both insurgents and weapons into the Gaza Strip. The Jihad presence in Egypt was detected in early 2003. They said Jihad recruited Egyptians to help facilitate the smuggling of weapons and explosives from the Egyptian-controlled part of Rafah to that controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The arms flow, the sources said, has been financed by Iran and begins in Sudan. They said the weapons moves through Cairo International Airport and then overland through the Sinai Peninsula to Rafah.
Sudan's fingers are getting all stinky again. They were on good behavior for awhile. We knew all about the Iranian financing, though...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt || 08/28/2003 20:26 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Follow the money. It all boils down to both Iran and Saudi Arabia as the funding sources. We have to dry up the sources by any AND all means. Lybia seems to be cool lately. No money, no IJ, no Hamas, no Hizbollah, no Al-Aqsa Bozos Brigade, no boomers. I hope that we have a plan before all the oil money we give the Saudis becomes a Nuke aimed at us or Israel.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 20:31 Comments || Top||


The Difference? Israeli TV shows raid aborted to spare civilians
So much for moral equivalence
JERUSALEM - The Israeli army, under fire for a bungled raid on militants in which a bystander was killed, released footage of a raid last year that was aborted to prevent civilian deaths.

The video, screened on public television for the first time on Wednesday, showed the view from an Israeli attack helicopter’s sights during an operation against a carload of militants in the West Bank city of Nablus.

As the car entered the city’s built-up area, the pilot was heard calling off the strike because of the presence of ambulances near the target vehicle, in what Israeli military sources insisted was part of standard operating procedure to prevent unintended civilian casualties.

On Tuesday evening, Israeli helicopters on a mission to kill two military commanders of the Islamist group Hamas in the Gaza Strip missed their target, killing a 65-year-old man and wounding at least 20 others.

One of the injured victims died on Wednesday.

Mohammad Balusha, 17, was near the vehicle hit by helicopter rocket fire in the Jabalya area, the medics said.

The army offered its apologies for the civilian casualties, but insisted that the Palestinian militant groups were ultimately to blame for operating out of heavily populated residential areas.

Palestinian sources said at least 200 innocent bystanders had been killed in Israeli assassination attempts against militants since the launch of the intifada in September 2000. -- AFP
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 6:44:52 PM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Palestinian sources said at least 200 Human Shields innocent bystanders had been killed in Israeli assassination attempts

Part of the blame does rest with the terrorists militants since they establish their offices and bases of operations in dense residential neighborhoods. There is a different between the Israeli army targetting of militant targets and Hamas'es deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.
Posted by: GregJ || 08/28/2003 18:53 Comments || Top||

#2  GregJ gets it, bigtime...can the State dept ever do the same?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 19:27 Comments || Top||

#3  IDF values Palestinian civvies a whole lot more than Hamas does. I think they should work this angle for all they can.
Posted by: Dishman || 08/28/2003 21:16 Comments || Top||


Israeli Warplane Kills Hamas Militant
Qassam-2’s My ass!
An Israeli warplane killed a Hamas militant Thursday with a missile strike on a donkey cart he was riding in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian witnesses and medics said.
Donkey cart — nice visual... wait til they do the Paleo-swarm (hat tip to LGF) on the donkey’s carcass. Which pieces are which??? Oh, the humanity!
They identified the man as Hamdi Kabach, an operative in the Izz al-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic militant faction, and said three other Palestinians were wounded in the attack in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis. Israel radio said Kabach was responsible for rocket attacks on Israel. The Israeli army had no immediate comment.
"I can say no more™"
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Thursday he had ordered Israel’s army to take "all necessary steps" against Palestinian militants after they fired a rocket into a large Israeli city for the first time. "I have instructed the minister of defense to take all necessary steps to avoid such actions in the future," he told reporters in Jerusalem after the rocket strike into Ashkelon, which caused no damage or casualties.
But could have...
Eight Israeli tanks and two armored bulldozers rumbled into the Beit Hanoun area and began felling trees about half a mile from a residential zone. An Israeli security source told Reuters, "We are leveling shrubbery, bushes and trees used as shelter for the (Hamas militant) cell that fired the Qassam rocket." Israel warned earlier that the attack may have crossed a "red line" threshold for serious military action inside Palestinian-administered Gaza after Islamist militant factions called off a seven-week-old truce.
That was after the boomed a busload of people. We have to keep repeating that, lest we forget and history change right out from under us...
The rocket strike into an industrial zone of Ashkelon, a coastal city of 116,000 people 6 miles north of the Gaza boundary, was the farthest a Qassam had been fired into Israel since a Palestinian uprising for statehood began in 2000. Palestinian officials said Palestinian security forces had rushed to Beit Hanoun shortly after the rocket was fired to rein in Hamas militants responsible, preventing further launchings.
yeah, riggghhttt
"Hi! We're the Paleostinian Security Forces. Did youse guyz fire off a rocket?"
"Nope. Wudn't us."
"Hokay."
"There was a chase and a shootout," a Palestinian security official told Reuters shortly before Israel’s incursion. "Our forces are still searching the area in the northern Gaza Strip."
"See anybody, Mahmoud?"
"Nope. Don't see nobody. How 'bout you, Achmed?"
"Nary a soul... Oh! Wait! There's somebody!"
"That's a chicken."
"Sorry. My mistake."
"We can’t see nothing with these blinders on, dammit!"
Islamic militants renounced their truce, crucial to a troubled U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, after Israel assassinated a Hamas political leader in a missile strike following a suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem by a Hamas man based in the West Bank.
Dontcha just love that wording? Skim it, and you can tell what bad guyz those Zionists are. Perhaps if it was reworded:
"Islamic militants renounced their truce, crucial to a troubled U.S. backed "road map" peace plan, by blowing a bus full of non-combatants. This was followed by Israel zapping a Hamas political leader in a missile strike."
Israeli troops have been poised at the entrance to northern Gaza since Hamas and Islamic Jihad renounced the cease-fire. New volleys of Qassams have since hit Jewish settlements inside Gaza and communities in southern Israel, causing minor damage and few casualties. Israel fears Qassam strikes also from the West Bank against the nearby densely populated coastal heart of the country. Israeli officials said Thursday’s attack may have breached a "red line" necessitating a major military response.
You said that before. What'd you do? Combine two stories again? I hate when they do that...
"It’s crossing a red line ... This is an alarming reality for us," Foreign Ministry spokesman Jonathan Peled told Reuters.
Cheeze Nips! They said it three times! I think they're just doing it to irritate me...
The "road map" requires Palestinians to end violence and Israel to pull back forces from occupied territory to pave the way for a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank by 2005.
Hey! They could end violence. I think my hair's growing back, too...
In an apparent clampdown on Hamas affecting thousands of needy Palestinians, the Palestinian Monetary Authority said it had frozen 39 bank accounts held by 12 Islamic charities, most of which are widely believed to be Hamas-sponsored. The move followed a U.S. decision to freeze assets of six top Hamas figures after a suicide bomber killed 21 people in Jerusalem in what Hamas called retaliation for army search-and-arrest raids that continued despite the truce. Hamas denied any official connection with the 12 charities, but many of their directors are former or current senior activists in the organization.
Just a coincidence, I'm sure... "Well, yes, dear. Those are my secretary's underpants in my briefcase..."
Several thousand charity recipients, some holding banners reading "Don’t make us beggars" and "We are not terrorists," took to the streets of Gaza City and Rafah in protest after banks refused to cash their monthly welfare checks.
Golly. I wonder which account pay the actual terrorists?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 3:57:32 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I feel pity for the poor donkey, who was an innocent bystander, sucked into hauling that Jiihadi piece of trash around.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 16:06 Comments || Top||

#2  Using a Maverick to take out a donkey cart . . . great googlymoogly!
Posted by: Mike || 08/28/2003 16:24 Comments || Top||

#3  "We are leveling shrubbery, bushes and trees used as shelter"
Clearcutting old growth forests, the environmentalists will no doubt be upset over this.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 16:33 Comments || Top||

#4  You can boom, and you can zoom, but when the checks are not honored, Hamas is toast. They better get out the cash or they are through. The Al Capone Soup Kitchen is gonna close.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 16:33 Comments || Top||

#5  OH THE HUMANITY!!! At least the Israelis could have spared the donkey. I feel sorry for their kids...how would you like to lose your Dad AND Mom all at once. I mean, it's not like Mom was involved with terrorism, all she did was pull the cart.
Posted by: Watcher || 08/28/2003 17:52 Comments || Top||

#6  Push 'em out of the strip and into Gaza proper. Point towards Egypt - "It's about 40 days thataway..."
Posted by: mojo || 08/28/2003 18:27 Comments || Top||

#7  Push 'em out of the strip and into Gaza proper. Point towards Egypt - "It's about 40 days thataway..."

and if God/Allah loves you, the water will part. If not, buh-bye....so sad
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 18:38 Comments || Top||

#8  From the Jpost - nice shooting:

Witnesses said Israeli jets had been flying over the area for about half an hour before the attack. A witness, Mamoun Salah, 42, said he had been walking toward his home in Khan Younis when the rocket struck about 100 meters (yards) away.
"A big explosion went off at the side of the street. I saw a man completely burned fall off the donkey cart he was driving," Salah said.

Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 18:40 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Bombs Explode at Biotech Company in California
Two small bombs exploded and shattered windows early Thursday on the campus of biotechnology company Chiron Corp., but nobody was hurt and authorities said damage was minimal. While police and company officials declined to comment on any suspects, Chiron and its executives have been targeted by animal-rights protesters recently over the company’s relationship with Huntingdon Life Sciences, which conducts animal experiments. Since May, the activists have noisily protested at workers’ homes and vandalized an executive’s car.
The usual suspects(tm)with the usual tactics.
Chiron, based in Emeryville, has increased security and is working with law-enforcement authorities. The FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are assisting the bombing investigation. Emeryville Police Sgt. LaJuan Collier said the first bomb exploded before 3 a.m. in front of one Chiron building and the second detonated about an hour later at another building.
Middle of the night when no one was around, they hoped.
Chiron makes drugs and is required by the Food and Drug Administration to test its products for safety and effectiveness on animals before it can sell the drugs to people, company spokesman John Gallagher said. He would not comment on whether Chiron conducts animal research at the Emeryville campus. The company contracts with New Jersey-based Huntingdon for some animal research. Huntingdon has been the target of a four-year campaign waged by animal rights activists affiliated with a group called Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty.
I vote we test new drugs on them.
A spokesman for the group said he was unsure if the bombing Thursday was related to any animal rights protest. "But it looks like an action that we would support," spokesman Kevin Jonas said.
I have no doubt that you do.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 3:40:04 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I'd be willing to bet heavily that the Chirion guys and Huntingdon have more moola to spend on thoroughly deniable bombers than the ALF/ELF whackos. Spend some.

Remember:
Surveilance, planning, execution - in that order.

You'll take some hits while you ID the perps, but then their asses are yours.
Posted by: mojo || 08/28/2003 15:57 Comments || Top||

#2  A spokesman for the group said he was unsure if the bombing Thursday was related to any animal rights protest. "But it looks like an action that we would support," spokesman Kevin Jonas said.

Kevin Jonas needs a wiretap, surveillance, and maybe eventually a search warrant for that stupid remark. That looks like probable cause in my book.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 16:04 Comments || Top||

#3 
Huntingdon has been the target of a four-year campaign waged by animal rights activists affiliated with a group called Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty.
A spokesman for the group said he was unsure if the bombing Thursday was related to any animal rights protest. "But it looks like an action that we would support," spokesman Kevin Jonas said.

I gotta proposition for all the animal rights terrorists:
DON'T USE ANY DRUG THAT WAS FIRST TESTED ON ANIMALS.
No antibiotics.
No cancer drugs.
No heart disease meds.
Nuttin', you wankers.

That should clean out the gene pool quite nicely, I should think.



Posted by: Celissa || 08/28/2003 17:29 Comments || Top||

#4  Round them all up, put them on a plane with a parachute. Give them all some emergency survival supplies. Fly them over a nice isolated wilderness area and shove their ignorant butts right out the door.

They would learn to appreciate the human race's place in the scheme of things or die.
Posted by: esp || 08/28/2003 18:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Round them all up, put them on a plane with a parachute.
ESP, is that one parachute for a plane load of activists? Good thinking.
Posted by: Gasse katze || 08/28/2003 19:41 Comments || Top||


Middle East
IAEA conference to discuss Israeli nukes for first time
From the World Tribune....more fuel for the nuclear fires...
LONDON — The International Atomic Energy Agency has decided to discuss Israeli nuclear capabilities in its next major conference. Diplomatic sources said the IAEA has placed on the agenda of its General Conference and Regular Session the subject of "Israeli Nuclear Capabilities and Threats." The subject will be discussed at the conference in Vienna in September. The sources said this is the first time in decades that the IAEA has placed Israel’s nuclear programs on the agenda of its general conference. The conference has been planned from Sept. 15 to Sept. 19, Middle East Newsline reported. They said the subject was placed at the behest of Arab and Islamic states. The proposal to discuss Israel’s nuclear programs came from the Arab League, the diplomats said. Oman was said to have submitted the request.

The IAEA has reserved the conference to also discuss Iran’s nuclear program and U.S. charges that Teheran is developing nuclear weapons. In response, Iran and Arab states have criticized the agency for failing to address Israel’s purported nuclear arsenal. In a recent meeting, the Arab League has asserted that Israel has stockpiled up to 300 nuclear warheads. The league said Israel now has the capability of producing hydrogen bombs. The sources said the Arab League plans to distribute a study on Israel’s nuclear programs to participants at the IAEA conference. The league will also demand that Israel sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 2:21:07 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Arab league, huh? My kids used to watch cartoon characters in superman's Justice League...they both had the same reality and relevance
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 14:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Smokescreen to buy more time for and/or avoid doing anything to Iran.
Posted by: Daniel King || 08/28/2003 14:42 Comments || Top||

#3  Right on, Daniel King. Blame Israel for their shortcomings. The arabs and Iranians think that the only way that they will get respectability is owning a Nuke. Producing or creating something of real use and value for everyone is a concept that is totally beyond them.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 14:45 Comments || Top||

#4  nothing wrong with the arab league discussing this - DIRECTLY WITH ISRAEL. Just sit down and talk. Im sure the Israelis would be ok. Better yet have Crown Prince Abdullah fly to Tel Aviv and meet with Sharon to express his concerns.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 15:55 Comments || Top||

#5  Hey Alaska Paul, you must have missed the news on the latest "technological advances" made to the Islamic Prayer Rug.

If everything goes according to plan, soon the whole world will have one!

Does anybody know the stock symbol?
Posted by: Daniel King || 08/28/2003 16:09 Comments || Top||

#6  yeah JDAM
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 16:17 Comments || Top||

#7  MOFO?
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 16:36 Comments || Top||

#8  LH---In a rational world, face to face would be the way to go. However, If Crown Prince Abdullah flew to Tel Aviv for frank and useful discussions, he would become buzzard bait the moment he landed back in Saudi.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 16:39 Comments || Top||

#9  that was kinda my point AP - you want to make a stink about Israeli nukes, you gotta have diplomatic relations with them first. How are they gonna negotiate arms reduction with you when you wont step into the same room with them?
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 16:56 Comments || Top||

#10  It might also help not wanting to wipe out the country you want to negotiate with.
Posted by: True German Ally || 08/28/2003 20:07 Comments || Top||

#11  LH---The problem is that any Saudi even wanting to meet with Israeli reps will be killed by his own countrymen. Hell, look what happened to Anwar Sadat. Rational negotiation requires compromise, but to many people over there, compromise is viewed as weakness.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 20:26 Comments || Top||

#12  Read an article in one of the Foreign Relations Quarterlies oh, ten years ago or longer, about the prospect of Israeli nukes. The consensus then was that Israel had five-six nukes in the 100Kt range, and the capability of manufacturing one to three a year after that. While the lefties have been in power in between that time, I doubt that Israel has stopped making or maintaining nukes. Do the Arabs really, really want to know for sure that Israel has nukes? I think that, if Israel acknowledged a nuclear arsenal and the means of delivering that arsenal to the capital of every Arab nation within 500-600 miles, there would be some serious puckering going on. I doubt that the "Arab Street" really wants to know their life can end in a flash and a bang any time Israel feels sufficiently threatened. At the same time, it might be just what's needed to get Arafart kicked out of Palestine. Personally, I'd like him to try his tricks down in the Congo, where they still eat people they don't like... Of course, at the same time, I'd like about 10,000 shares of stock in Pepto Bismol, and the exclusive rights to the Congo market.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/28/2003 20:33 Comments || Top||


Iran
Russia Sells Iran System for Uranium Enrichment
DEBKAfile, EFL
The Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency – IAEA – put out a disturbing report this week confirming earlier DEBKAfile revelations that traces of uranium enrichment activity were found in samples at Natanz nuclear facility in Iran, 290 km south of Tehran, evidence that Iran was in the process of building a nuclear arsenal.
DEBKA did report that first, I can’t find the date.
Agency officials admit that Tehran is in clear non-compliance with its nuclear safeguard obligations and may even have laid itself open to a complaint to the UN Security Council and the threat of sanctions. In issue Number 120, published on August 8, DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s military sources reported exclusively that in the second week of July Russia secretly delivered the components of the AVLIS (atomic vapor laser isotope separator) system aboard unmarked military transports. This accelerated and environmentally clean process of uranium enrichment was first developed at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, California, for the US Department of Energy in the 1970s. In 1998, the Iranians were reported working on their own AVLIS. The version supplied by Russian is apparently based on more advanced technology. The Russian components came with Russian technicians for assembling the apparatus and teaching Iranian nuclear technicians how to use it.
The Iranians have the hard currency to buy the best.
According to the information obtained by DEBKA-Net-Weekly , AVLIS has been installed at two of Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities, Natanz and Moallen Kalayeh. The latter is Iran’s most secluded subterranean nuclear plant, buried under the Albroz Mountains 40 km north of Tehran. In its tall tunnels, Iran carries out its most secret tests.
Deep underground, I’ll wager. They saw what Israel did to the Iraqi reactor complex.
Moallen Kalayeh used to be a small rural village. Today it is a closed township populated by hundreds of scientists and technicians. It is also one of the most heavily protected places in the country.
Russian model, or early Los Alamos
The Iranians are putting the new equipment to work at top speed at the peak of their effort to build up a stock of enriched uranium sufficient for a nuclear device before September 8, when the Nuclear Atomic Energy Agency’s board convenes in Vienna to discuss the Iran report.
Why worry, the NAEA isn’t going to do anything other than issue a stern letter of concern.
Tehran has also been racing against the clock to forestall decisions at the six-nation talks on North Korea’s nuclear program that began in Beijing August 27, before they impede Iran’s related progress towards a nuclear weapon. Attending the talks are the US, the two Koreas, Japan, Russia and China, the host.
Hummm, there have been reports of flights between Pakistan and North Korea. Wonder if there have been any from Iran?
According to our Moscow sources, Russian military circles as certain that without that AVLIS would not have been consigned to Iran without the okay of President Vladimir Putin. He would have seen the delivery as a means of getting round his promise to President George W. Bush not to send Iran spent nuclear rods to fuel the Bushehr nuclear reactor and a way of compensating Iran for this letdown.
Interesting
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 1:42:19 PM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  My WOT Futures issue of the US and/or Israel destroying Iranian Nuke Capability was 75%. Now it is 33% with all the votes. I still stand on 75% because, unless there is a regime change, we will have to deal with both the U235 enrichment facilities in Natanz and Moallen Kalayeh and the potential plutonium producing reactor at Bushehr. And the only way to ensure that this threat is eliminated is with a raid.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 14:01 Comments || Top||

#2  I saw your 75% and raised you 5% and I stand on that too :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 14:37 Comments || Top||

#3  If the Russians were going to engage in capitalism, I would have thought that maybe they could have sold bobble-heads of communist all time greats on E-bay.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:44 Comments || Top||


Korea
NK TO TEST NUKES!
WASHINGTON - North Korea startled a six-nation conference in China on East Asian security by announcing its intentions to formally declare its possession of nuclear weapons and to carry out a nuclear test, an administration official said Thursday.

North Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Yong Il also told the gathering that his country has the means to deliver nuclear weapons, an apparent reference to the North’s highly developed missile program.

The comments cast a pall over Thursday’s plenary session, which included representatives of the United States, South Korea, China, Japan and Russia, in addition to North Korea.

I HAVE FIVE BUCKS THAT SAY THEY BLOW THEMSLEVES UP! BTW WHERE IS DIMMY CUTTER, MADELINE NOTBRIGHT, AND BILLARY CLITON? DID THEY NOT SAY THAT THESE NK GOONS WERE OFF THE NUKE SAUCE AND CLEAN?
Posted by: mjh & Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 08/28/2003 1:24:26 PM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They're getting desperate, and trying to pressure us. A nuke blast is precisely what is needed, BTW, to get some action on this issue, such as admitting SK and Japan to the nuclear club. China WON'T like that.

Don't play poker with Bush. Show yer cards, Kimmie, and then we'll see if we'll stay in for the next hand.
Posted by: Ptah || 08/28/2003 13:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Well, China, thanks for helping out your neighbor to the south with its dirty little business. Couldn't have done it without you.

Kimmie is exploring the edge of the envelope with his little nuclear blackmail scheme. I would imagine that the Russians are not too excited about it (see article last week about Russian military exercises). So your only friend in the area is China.

I think that the 6 way goat rope talks are over.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 13:36 Comments || Top||

#3  More:
WASHINGTON - North Korea startled a six-nation conference in China on East Asian security by announcing its intentions to formally declare its possession of nuclear weapons and to carry out a nuclear test, an administration official said Thursday.

North Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Yong Il also told the gathering that his country has the means to deliver nuclear weapons, an apparent reference to the North's highly developed missile program.

The comments cast a pall over Thursday's plenary session, which included representatives of the United States, South Korea, China, Japan and Russia, in addition to North Korea.

James Kelly, the chief U.S. delegate, demanded that North Korea engage in the verifiable and permanent dismantling of its nuclear weapons programs, in return for which the United States would provide security guarantees and economic benefits.

The administration official, asking not to be identified, said that when Russia and Japan attempted to point out some positive elements of the U.S. presentation, the North Korean delegate attacked them by name and said they were lying at the instruction of the United States.
(Conflict Resolution 101 - NK style: spittle, threats, name-calling, disparage motives, demand money - ed.)
According to the administration official, China's delegate appeared visibly angry over Kim's statement but responded in a moderate tone.

Kim said his country was maintaining this position because the United States clearly had no intention of abandoning its hostile policy toward North Korea, the U.S. official said.
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 13:45 Comments || Top||

#4  You've all seen Goodfellas when Joe Pesci gets whacked because he's too out of control for his own good. Well...I expect Kim's got a Goodfella's moment coming, and Deniro (China) is going to have to stand by as he gets whacked.
Posted by: mjh || 08/28/2003 13:57 Comments || Top||

#5  any chance their bomb is a dud?... How great would that be....
Posted by: ----------<<<<- || 08/28/2003 14:04 Comments || Top||

#6  Thank you Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton for a nuclear NK.

This ought push Japan and Sk right over the edge.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono || 08/28/2003 14:07 Comments || Top||

#7  any chance their bomb is a dud?

Given how few A-bomb tests fail (as opposed to H-bombs, which are trickier), I suspect it's likely to work the first time.

However, I think it would be the catalyst for a massive allied strike against their re-processing plants and other known nuclear sites that would classify the victory as Pyrrhic in nature. Since Kim has demonstrated the ability to lob warheads into Japan, we'd probably be joined in this effort by the Japanese and South Koreans -- and possibly also with some intelligence & logistics assistance from Russia & China.

I believe India and Pakistan are just about the lower limit for possession of nuclear arms by people with somewhat intemperate societies...
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 14:14 Comments || Top||

#8  "...According to the administration official, China's delegate appeared visibly angry over Kim's statement but responded in a moderate tone...

..What's Chinese for, "What are you, messuggineh???"

All kidding aside, I think Kimmy has finally gone over the edge here. He slapped his ONLY protector in the face, in public. That is NOT going to go over well in the Great Hall of The People.
MJH - the 'Goodfellas' moment is appropriate, but I was thinking more of a real life one - when (IIRC)Dutch Schultz decided he was going to whack Tom Dewey, who had been closing in on him,no matter what the heads of the families thought and then had the b**ls to say it to their faces. After he stormed out, someone quietly said, "I move that we hit the Dutchman..." and it was done.
The problem there is that even after the hit, the Dutchman took a long time to die.

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 08/28/2003 14:30 Comments || Top||

#9  So your only friend in the area is China.

And the Norks just left a cowpat and a big puddle in the middle of the conference room. Not the way you want to treat the host.

China was humiliated (diplomatically) during the last talks by North Korea's attempt to turn them into a bilateral discussion -- the US delegation left a day early. Now this...

I expect that the oil pipeline between China & N. Korea will have another interruption shortly.
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 14:33 Comments || Top||

#10  The three-day summit came together after months of political maneuvering when China - political ally of North Korea and economic partner of the United States - agreed to be the host.
Dinner guest was rude to other guests, host loses face.
China's delegate appeared visibly angry over Kim's statement
China gets angry when they lose face. They can see if NK pops one off, Japan and SK may go nuke. They don't want that, so they might take action against NK themselves.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 14:56 Comments || Top||

#11  Japan and SK may go nuclear? I would say that they definately would. Add to that the sheer industural, scientific, and economic power of the two countries (JP and SK) involved it would not be long before they do go nuclear -- especially if the U.S. lends some -er- assistance.....

Neither S. Korea or Japan want to be nuclear (especially Japan since they have first-hand experience....) but this will probably force them to it.

It will be interesting to see how China reacts....
Posted by: GregJ || 08/28/2003 15:28 Comments || Top||

#12  The North Koreans have no other option. They have to act as crazy as they possibly can in the desperate hope that they will get a huge amount of aid - right NOW. Whoever is in charge in Pyongyang probably estimates that they won't make it into 2004 without goodies from outside the country.
Posted by: Pete Stanley || 08/28/2003 16:16 Comments || Top||

#13  Pete,

Very good point. What else can NK do?

This is their last, best chance to negotiate to their advantage, and they are now a liability to everyone at that bargaining table.

I guess we can all see now why NK wanted bilateral talks. They didn't want to have this tantrum in front of their erstwhile allies. Now that they have, the game has changed.
Posted by: mjh || 08/28/2003 16:31 Comments || Top||

#14  What else can they do? Well, given the current Roh administration in Seoul, I can image NK ratcheting up pressure along the DMZ considerably. Say, lobbing a few artillery shells towards US positions. I'd bet the Roh administration would put intense pressure on the US not to respond with force. But they still wouldn't get food, etc. shipments. And then I can see them threatening SK directly - a few shells into downtown Seoul, perhaps.

Beyond that, there's not much they could feasibly do.
Posted by: Pete Stanley || 08/28/2003 17:10 Comments || Top||

#15  This discussion seems to me predicated on a belief that Frankenkimmie is somehow sane. It may well be that he has flipped his lid.
My first impression on hearing this news was that it was in response to China's message that the US would attack and China would not intervene. I think there is a substantial chance of an explosive breakdown of China-NorK diplomatic relations.
Posted by: Dishman || 08/28/2003 17:19 Comments || Top||

#16  I think China may consider invading NK themselves and install a regiem they can control.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 08/28/2003 18:06 Comments || Top||

#17  I still stand by my previous assertion that China will use the nuclear NK issue as leverage against American support of Taiwan. You want a nuclear free N.Korea? Give us Taiwan (or atleast look the other way while we, ehmm, assimilate them).
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 19:08 Comments || Top||

#18  Personally, I'd like them to use up a good portion of their stock on tests -- as long as the tests are in NK. Improves our odds of destroying their capability without our taking one in NY harbor.
Posted by: Tom || 08/28/2003 19:25 Comments || Top||

#19  Personally, I'd like them to use up a good portion of their stock on tests -- as long as the tests are in NK. Improves our odds of destroying their capability without our taking one in NY harbor.
Posted by: Tom || 08/28/2003 19:31 Comments || Top||

#20  The rules of "live chess"(1) are that you can only make a move on the board if you can show credibly that the real-life piece will move in the same way. Furthermore, if the real-life piece fails to make the move, the board move is invalid.
At this point, I believe that North Korea has balked, and China no longer controls the piece. At this point, all China can do is offer to remove North Korea from the board in return for some consideration from the US.

(1) "The Squares of the City" by John Brunner
Posted by: Dishman || 08/28/2003 19:53 Comments || Top||

#21  Where are they going to "test" this live nuke, Japan, Korea, China, Russia? I doubt any of those countries would sit idly by as NKor uses their territory to test a live nuke. There isn't enough ground anywhere in NKor to test it underground, and that's far more expensive and easy to detect. They might be able to get Pakistan to test it for them, but how is India going to react to that? Send it to Iran? Is there any guarantee that if the Ayatollahs got a live nuke they'd actually explode it, except in some other country? I think NKor has talked themselves into a corner, and there's no back door.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/28/2003 20:21 Comments || Top||

#22  North Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Yong Il also told the gathering that his country has the means to deliver nuclear weapons...

He'd better realize that will be the last delivery they'll ever make.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/28/2003 21:10 Comments || Top||

#23  Tell them to test away. Tell them that the US will not attend another meeting until a sucessful test has been demonstrated. Then sit back drink ice water and say nothing until the meeting ends. In the next round all other participants will be more serious.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:40 Comments || Top||

#24  My prediction:
A few hundred miles off the east coast of Japan.

Something else to consider:
Beijing is slightly closer to NKor than Tokyo is.
Posted by: Dishman || 08/28/2003 21:42 Comments || Top||

#25  Like South Africa, the North Koreans will probably do any A-bomb tests in open ocean. If they were to test in North Korea, any fallout that gets away (assuuming an underground test) will drift over Japan -- which will focus Japan's attention very quickly.
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 21:55 Comments || Top||

#26  If the NORKS do a test in the ocean, it is going to be hard to hide the placement. If it is a plane, we will see or paint it. Same with a ship. Do the Norks have subs? We would be looking for them. Basically on land or sea, they can't hide a test. I cannot say that the NORKS would rationally do this, but you never know. They have been systematically painting themselves into a corner.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/28/2003 22:16 Comments || Top||

#27  Re: Old Patriot

They'll test it underground, like everyone since 1960. Both India & Pakinstein tested their nukes underground, and those were the last into the Nuclear club. Israel have never tested their nuke, but everyone knew they have them, and plenty of.

Of course, if Dear Leader want to demostrate his total insanity, he can test one off the Pacific coast of Japan via a missle delievery system.
Posted by: BigFire || 08/28/2003 22:47 Comments || Top||

#28  Re: Alaska Paul

The whole point of nuclear test is to announce unambigiously to the rest of the world, you have a nuclear device. In this case, should Dear Leader decided to test, hiding it is the last thing he wants to do.
Posted by: BigFire || 08/28/2003 22:49 Comments || Top||

#29  I think if the do test it they might both demostrate their nuclear abilty and their delivery system (didn't they say they would show both?) by firing it over Japan or over S. Korea. That would both show they they have it and setup a hostage situation.

Of course if they do... and the test missle happens to be shot down by a patriot over the sea of Japan (or better yet over N. Korea which would be more tricky....) it would kind of pull their feathers a bit.

They wont be able to take it to a ocean location after much longer of the US and other nations setup a blockaid and start serching vessels for nacotics or arms.

On the other hand its late and I may be blowing smoke out of my ass too :)
Posted by: GregJ || 08/28/2003 23:54 Comments || Top||

#30  NK has diesel subs which are good for coastal patrol. They are incredibly quiet when the are running off of battery power but must snorckle to run the diesels for recharging.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/29/2003 20:38 Comments || Top||


Middle East
Jibril's back
I think Yasser's trying to amuse himself by confusing any Byzantines still around...
Jibril Rajoub, picked by Yasser Arafat as a top security adviser, said in an interview Wednesday he has a mandate to help reform the Palestinian security services, but stopped short of pledging to clamp down on militants.
"If it's Thursday, it must be reform day..."
Arafat named Rajoub, a former West Bank security chief, to the vacant post of national security adviser this week, 18 months after the two had a bitter dispute over a campaign Arafat had repeatedly promised against suspected militants. In an interview at his home in Ramallah, Rajoub said he had warned Arafat at the start of the latest, three-year uprising of the dangers of allowing Palestinian factions to add guns and bombs to the stones they threw during the first intefadeh, from 1987-1993. "From the beginning it was my view that militarizing the intefadeh will hurt the Palestinian people and their cause," he said, though he never issued the warning publicly.
Assuming he told Yasser — and since Yasser went for his rosco, I'm assuming it's true — it shows Jibril's got a 3-digit IQ...
Rajoub, 50, withdrew from public life after that quarrel and after Israeli forces trashed his marble-and-glass compound in a military offensive in April 2002. The gruff-voiced Rajoub, once perhaps the most feared man in the West Bank, has spent the break battling prostate cancer and working out.
"Yasser tries to shoot me, the Israelis wreck my palace office complex, I catch prostate cancer — and now this!
Arafat's surprise decision to bring him back, particularly after such a bitter falling out, has prompted speculation about the Palestinian leader's motives. Is he planning to give Rajoub real authority? Or is the appointment part of Arafat's struggle with Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas over control of the security forces? Abbas' security chief, Mohammed Dahlan, is a bitter Rajoub rival.
If Jibril and Mohammed are butting heads as they in-fight over who's in charge of what, that means nothing gets done. I think Jibril's a counterweight...
It remains unclear just how much influence Rajoub will wield as the Palestinian leadership scrambles to respond to the latest outburst of violence. His appointment comes with Arafat under growing U.S. pressure to hand control over security forces to Abbas; at the moment, Abbas commands some of the security branches, but not all. Arafat has balked at the demand, and has refused to back a clampdown on armed groups, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
See what I mean?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt || 08/28/2003 11:43 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Byzantine ver6.1?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 16:27 Comments || Top||

#2  A Haiku for my buddy from Egypt:

Yasser Sadaam's Pal
Charletan and murderer
Kill Arafat Soon

At a minimum fix his shower in Rammallah. I can almost whiff the BO through my Zenith.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:32 Comments || Top||


Africa: East
Syrian Convicted in Sudan Terrorism Trial
A Sudanese court has convicted a Syrian and sentenced him to a month in prison for training Palestinians and Saudis to carry out attacks against U.S. forces in Iraq.
A month, is it? Boy, that'll l'arn 'im!
The court also convicted two Sudanese of helping the Syrian and providing information to help others plan attacks on government and Jewish targets in Eritrea. The court gave few details about the unidentified defendants or the investigations, and officials refused to comment — a possible reflection of the country's nervousness that it could once again be seen as a terrorist haven.
Sounds kinda like that's what it's doing. Those one-month sentences should deter the Bad Guys, though...
The court said it convicted the Syrian for holding classes in Sudan to train Saudis and Palestinians to carry out anti-American attacks in Iraq. A Saudi was to be expelled to Saudi Arabia, the court said. There were no details on how many Saudis and Palestinians were involved in the classes. The court said the Syrian and two Sudanese were convicted of aiding a foreign group and plotting attacks abroad. The Syrian was sentenced to one month in prison and fined $192,000.
The $192,000 might be more of a deterrent, unless it's Zim dollars, which'd make it about $1.50...
One Sudanese was sentenced to five months in prison and the other to six months. Prosecutor Mohammed Farid, who handled the case, refused to comment Thursday when contacted by The Associated Press.
So why even bring him up?
Two other Sudanese men were at large and were thought to be a source of funding and the link between the Saudis and Palestinians and the three convicted men.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt || 08/28/2003 11:33 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I hope these guys are still on the terrorist list.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:28 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Hometown Rallies For Accused Soldiers (from military.com)
EFL:but a good read
The families of four U.S. Army reservists accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners of war have enlisted politicians, veterans groups and hundreds of friends to help persuade the military to dismiss the charges at a hearing next week. The four soldiers, all with the 320th Military Police Battalion based in Ashley, Pa., are charged with punching and kicking several Iraqis, breaking one man’s nose, while escorting a busload of prisoners to a POW processing center near Umm Qasr in May. Details of the allegations haven’t been released by the Army, and the soldiers said they have been ordered not to discuss the case. But in e-mails and phone calls home the four said they were assaulted by the prisoners and used minimal force to defend themselves. ... The campaign has also attracted lawmakers. ...praising the reservists for having "fought and sacrificed for our country," and expressing disappointment that the issue hadn’t been resolved by a preliminary investigation. Rep. Don Sherwood, R-Pa., said the soldiers deserved every benefit of the doubt, considering the conditions in Iraq. "They put their lives on hold, and went to the Gulf to protect us ... and now they are under charges because someone thinks they were a little rough with Iraqi prisoners," Sherwood said. "No one has shown me any convincing evidence that they were out of line." ...
(article has troopers names, will try to find an e-mail address)
From the names 2 of the guards appear to be women.I would imagine, given the Muslim treatment of women, that these ladies were justified. Makes me laugh when I think about this guy’s fellow prisoners laughing and pointing,saying "You got your butt kicked by a girl" can you imagine the shame of it all. I can hear AI crying about violating thier "cultural sensebilities" now.

The four have all been separated from their units and assigned to duties in Kuwait while they await an Aug. 27 disciplinary hearing that could lead to an acquittal, a simple letter of reprimand, or a recommendation that they be discharged from the service or imprisoned.
(SOP)
Col. Rick Thomas, a spokesman for Combined Forces Land Component Command in Atlanta, said the soldiers have been appointed lawyers and will be able to cross examine witnesses at the hearing. "It is a very fair process, and it is deliberate," Thomas said. He said the letters from the soldiers’ supporters wouldn’t affect the hearing’s outcome. Relatives said that after they were charged, the soldiers complained that conditions were chaotic at Camp Bucca, where the assault allegedly took place, and that guards had been harassed and assaulted daily by unruly prisoners. "Our kids were made scapegoats," said Girman’s mother, Carole Graff. "We want them home, and let (the Army) handle the situation themselves." Amnesty International said some former prisoners of coalition troops have complained that they were treated poorly, held in filthy conditions, restrained in painful positions for long periods, and tortured by being exposed to bright lights and loud music for prolonged periods.
AI involvment automatically makes the issue suspect.
Several of the reservists have experience handling prisoners in their civilian jobs. Girman has been a Pennsylvania state trooper for 14 years and served at a POW camp during the 1991 Gulf War. McKenzie, who was decorated for his previous service in Bosnia, is a lieutenant in a boot-camp style prison run by the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections. Edmondson is a campus security officer at the University of Scranton, where she also takes classes. "A bloody nose and a twisted arm, and our kids are facing prison time?" said Edmondson’s mother, Linda Edmondson. "In a time of war, it’s ridiculous. She could have shot them, if she wanted to hurt someone."
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 10:39:00 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  tortured by being exposed to bright lights and loud music for prolonged periods

They were sent to a club?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 10:55 Comments || Top||

#2  This is the standard prison scenario being played out in Iraq. The corrections officers union line is being followed to the "t" here.

I don't know what happened, but the union line is:
1. Report any injury to you, no matter how slight.
2. All force used is always the minimum necessary.
3. All prisoners are injured through their own actions or in accidents.
4. We need more officers to maintain order.

The urge to smack someone that one extra time is often irresistable. It's a very fine line and you often are only in control by intimidating your prisoners, and force is intimidation. It's easy for us on the outside, AI especially, to be critical, but it is also easy for guards to cross the line.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/28/2003 10:59 Comments || Top||

#3  I am sure the Arabs involved here were respectful of the Female guards and never tried anything with them! BLAH! Nothing gets a prisoners attention faster thatn bitch-slapping one of them for busting your balls. Yes sometimes you have to establish dominance over your prisoners.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 08/28/2003 12:31 Comments || Top||

#4 
"A bloody nose and a twisted arm, and our kids are facing prison time?" said Edmondson’s mother, Linda Edmondson. "In a time of war, it’s ridiculous. She could have shot them, if she wanted to hurt someone."

Amen.
Posted by: Celissa || 08/28/2003 17:32 Comments || Top||


Africa: Southern
"In Zimbabwe, Did Bob, A Stately Pleasure Dome Decree"
Robert Mugabe is building a lavish $A9 million palace on the outskirts of Zimbabwe’s capital, Harare. Furnishings and security for the President’s new residence are expected to send the cost to $15 million at a time when nearly half of Zimbabwe’s population is dependent on international food aid. Contractors are working feverishly on the fittings, while two lakes built on the southern boundary have begun to fill.
That would be for the crocodiles Bob feeds his opponents to.
The residence offers more than a hectare of accommodation, including two-storey reception rooms, an office suite, and up to 25 bedrooms with adjoining bathrooms and spas. The Chinese-style roof is clad with midnight blue glazed tiles from Shanghai. The ceilings were decorated by Arab craftsmen.
Sounds like he borrowed the plans from Saddam.
It is three times the size of the President’s official residence, State House, and his adjacent offices. Mr Mugabe has built smaller mansions in Harare and Zvimba, his birthplace, as well a Chivu, the birthplace of his wife, Grace.
Got to keep up appearances, Bob’s a important guy.
Construction of a helicopter pad and extensive communications lines at the new site casts doubt on Mr Mugabe’s intention to retire, suggesting that he intends to continue running the country from his new home.
The chopper pad is just in case he has to make a run for it.
"The whole point of this mansion is that Mugabe is unlikely to step down from power," said John Makumbe, a political science lecturer at the University of Zimbabwe. "This is not a sign that Mugabe is preparing to go. It is a sign that Mugabe expects to carry on with business as usual and to live like a monarch while the rest of the country is mired in poverty."
Well, you didn’t really believe he was going to quit, did you?
Mr Makumbe, also a member of the anti-corruption group Transparency International, asked where Mr Mugabe got the funds to build the colossal structure. Last year, when the United States and the European Union slapped sanctions on Mr Mugabe and more than 70 of his political cohorts, Washington also froze their assets. Mr Mugabe challenged investigators to find any personal stash abroad. "They will find nothing," he said.
Keeps it under his mattress.
However, his new house is a striking sign that he has spent massively more than he has earned.
Kadaffi most likely holds the second mortage.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 10:06:05 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  where is the Charles Taylor/Guest House Wing?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 10:38 Comments || Top||

#2  I'm sure Zim's neighbors are getting tired of the steady stream of refugees entering their countries, looking for anything alive to eat. Perhaps they should convince the SA Air Force to hit a set of coordinates with several tons of HE, once we're sure Bob's moved in. I'd bet my next paycheck that the coordinates are easily accessible, if anybody asked nicely.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/28/2003 15:08 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Guns, Chain Saws Seized from Air Passengers
U.S. airport baggage screeners, displaying seized chain saws, machetes and knives, warned travelers to check their luggage for offensive objects before boarding a flight.
Chain saws?
Officials of the Transport Security Administration, speaking ahead of this weekend’s Labor Day holiday -- a busy travel time -- said that since February 2002 more than 7.5 million prohibited items had been seized. They included 50,000 box cutters -- a weapon said to be used by the Sept. 11, 2001 hijackers -- and 1,437 firearms as well as 2.3 million knives.
I used to always carry a small pocket knife, but who knew that box cutters were such a popular item?
Since the Sept. 11 attacks screeners have confiscated seemingly harmless items like nail clippers and cigarette lighters from passengers. But some carry more obviously dangerous items. Chain saws, a weed cutting machine, hand saws and machetes, steak knives, bottles of camping stove fuel and perfume bottles shaped like hand grenades were among items displayed as a sample of objects seized at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport.
"Mr. Jason, would you please remove the hockey mask and please explain how the chain saw and machete got in your carry on bag?"
While some carry-on items may have been innocent -- a hockey stick or a child’s plastic sword -- other discoveries by TSA have yielded razor blades in tennis shoes and a bayonet hidden in a hollowed-out artificial leg.
I’d want to have a good long talk with pegleg.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 9:41:14 AM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  When I was a stockboy in high school, I used to always have a boxcutter or two in my pockets. It's like nerds & pocket-protectors - part of the regalia. Of course, I have to wonder how many stockers are likely to be taking regular flights anywhere - it isn't the best-paying job in the world.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/28/2003 10:42 Comments || Top||

#2  Anybody that thinks a machete is a more effective weapon than a hockey stick never saw Dale Hunter play.

Realistically, even if peg leg sucessfuly smuggles a baynet onboard, how will that help in when I attack him with the eating tray that I rip off the seat in front of me. Even if he fires up a Poulan, it will be a simple matter to choose and sacrifice one of my fellow passengers. Likely candidates would be:
the idiot who persists in reclining his chair onto my kneecap or my friendly row-mate who wants to tell me about his day
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 22:09 Comments || Top||

#3  I always check in my chain saw. Makes the boarding process a lot smoother.
Posted by: tu3031 || 08/28/2003 22:23 Comments || Top||


Middle East
IDF: Ashkelon hit by Palestinian Kassam missile
JPost - Reg - Req’d
Palestinian terrorists have fired four Kassam 2 missiles into Israel this afternoon, one of which landed in the southern Israeli port city of Ashkelon.
Begging for a whacking, huh?
This is the first time that Kassam missiles have landed as far north as Ashkelon. The rockets were fired from Beit Hanun in the Gaza Strip. The IDF reported that no casualities were sustained in the attack. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip fired an improved version of the Kassam rocket toward Ashkelon last Sunday. It landed on an empty beach, causing no injuries and leaving only a small crater in the sand.
Which, ideally, is what the Paleos will resemble after the retaliation
But it marked the first firing of the Kassam-2 since the ill-fated hudna (cease-fire) was declared seven weeks ago, and the first time a rocket almost reached Ashkelon. Hamas and other groups in the Gaza Strip used the period of the cease-fire to extend the range of their home-made Kassam rockets.
Busy little beavers, aren’t they? If they put half the effort into productive activities as they do in trying to kill Joooos, they wouldn’t live in such stinking sh&tholes
The rocket was fired from Beit Lahiya. Military sources said the rocket traveled only seven kilometers. The IDF retaliated for the Kassam attack on Sunday with pinpoint helicopter missile strikes targeting key Hamas leaders. The Sunday rocket strike came just hours after Palestinian security forces said they had begun arresting weapons smugglers in the Gaza Strip on Saturday evening, seizing weapons and detaining at least 15 suspects. They said they also sealed off two more tunnels used to smuggle weapons from Egypt to the Gaza Strip.
Show arrests - posed
Israeli security officials dismissed the Palestinian raids as fiction and affirmed that Israel will continue acting against terrorists, a security source said. The Palestinian Authority has decided to implement gradual measures to destroy the terrorist infrastructure, while also trying to discuss a new hudna involving Israel through international diplomatic mediation, Palestinian officials said this week.
very gradual, as in letting the big guys age and die naturally
It was reported from Gaza today that the PA has frozen several bank accounts of so-called Islamic charities in Gaza and the West Bank. These charities have been funding terror activities according to officials in the Prime Minister’s office.
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 8:36:00 AM || Comments || Link || [5 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Problem is that the Hebrews could all leave Isreal and turn everything over to the Palestinians and with Yasser Arafat around, they would be living in shitholes twenty years from now.

Odd fact though is that the US provides over 70% of the money for the Palestinian slums refuge camps. What about all of that money that Sammy spread around for boomers, how come none of these nutjob organizations that blow up everything and everybody don't spread a little l'argant around and make like a little better in the Palestinian areas? I think we know the answer......they DON'T CARE about the palestinians.........it has nothing to do with palestinians..it is about islamic fundementalism and radical islam.
Posted by: SOG475 || 08/28/2003 9:15 Comments || Top||

#2  SOG475,
Pst..., a citizen of Israel is called ISRAELI, with a 80% chance of being a Jew. Hebrew is the prime language of Israel
Posted by: marek || 08/28/2003 10:04 Comments || Top||

#3  Here's More: Israeli Army Unit Enters Gaza After Rocket Strike
GAZA (Reuters) - An Israeli tank and two armored bulldozers entered the northern Gaza Strip on Thursday after a rocket fired by Palestinian militants there landed inside a large Israeli city for the first time, witnesses said.
They said the bulldozers began felling trees in the Beit Hanoun area. An Israeli security source confirmed the operation. "We are leveling shrubbery, bushes and trees used as shelter for the (militants) who fired the Qassam rocket," the source said.

Israeli officials earlier warned the rocket attack could have crossed a "red line" threshold for major military action inside the Palestinian-administered Mediterranean strip after militant factions called off a seven-week-old cease-fire. Palestinian security officials said Palestinian forces had rushed to Beit Hanoun shortly after the rocket was fired to rein in Hamas militants responsible, preventing further launchings. The Qassam rocket hit an industrial zone in the coastal city of Ashkelon, 5.5 miles north of the Gaza boundary, but caused no damage or injuries, the Israeli army said.

It was the farthest a Qassam had been fired into Israel since a Palestinian uprising for statehood began in 2000.

Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 12:30 Comments || Top||

#4  Well, so much for the much ballyhooed security fence the Israelis are building; it's not even completed, yet the Palis have already found a way to attack Israel despite it.
Security fence, hudna, roadmap, etc. are only delaying the inevitable, which is: Israel will have to transfer the Pali population out of Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza strip. And you know what, the people most loathe to do such are the Israelis themselves. They remember their own people being loaded into cattle cars and shipped off to the death camps. It will be a very painfull thing for them to eventually do, but do it, they eventually must.
Posted by: jlc || 08/28/2003 13:50 Comments || Top||

#5  Isn't Kassam a really bad movie starring Shaquille O'Neil?
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/28/2003 21:59 Comments || Top||


Islamic ’charities’ say bank accounts frozen by PA
JPost - Reg Req’d - Arafat’s wife Suha must need shopping money
Officials of several Islamic charities in the Gaza Strip said Thursday that 36 of their bank accounts have been frozen by the Palestinian Authority, in what appeared to be part of a possible crackdown on terror groups.
yeah, rigggghhhtttt
Palestinian Authority officials could not immediately be reached for comment. too busy chuckling
The freezing of funds came to light Thursday, as hundreds of Palestinians relying on welfare tried to pick up their monthly support checks. They were told by banks that they would not receive money, and that the accounts had been frozen. The heads of the charities were given the same message by the banks. The funds were frozen by the Palestinian Monetary Authority, according to a copy of the order obtained by The Associated Press.
This is more show for PR...nothing of substance, other than Arafat trying to assert control - as usual. But you can bet Chirac will be all over it like a cheap suit to justify their support of Hamas, PA, and IJ
Actually, I'd say this would make things harder on Chirac. How can he not freeze their accounts when Yasser's freezing their accounts?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 8:22:54 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Maybe some senior PA officials are in need of "get out of town" money?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 8:26 Comments || Top||

#2  This is nothing more than symbolism over substance. Gee where have we heard that before?
Posted by: Douglas De Bono || 08/28/2003 9:12 Comments || Top||

#3  its complex - Abbas is pushing before the PLC to get more control over security forces, stop arafat from appointing a pro-Arafat Interior Minister. Abbas has little support on the street, but his strength is his external support, while Arafat is increasingly isolated.
So Arafat has grudgingly made psoitive noises to try to lessen his international isolation. Not clear who's behind above move - Finance ministry is in hands of a reformer, but not clear if PMA reports to Finance Ministry.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 08/28/2003 9:16 Comments || Top||

#4  LH, all true, but nothing can really be reformed when the Arafish sits atop the pile, alive. He's like a reverse-Midas, corrupting everything he touches. When he's dead, decision time for the Paleos will be nigh with every faction and splinter group trying to get control
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:10 Comments || Top||

#5  Frank G: Your last sentence put me in the mood to look out the window at the clouds with a dreamy, wistful smile on my face... :-)
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 13:08 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Welcome to the department of peace studies
(Via Joanne Jacobs) There's been a surge in the popularity of peace studies:
[The] chair of Berkeley's Peace and Conflict Studies Department, said the university's program has increasingly been accepted by the academic community as a serious area of study since it was founded 25 years ago. He noted interest in the program has been bolstered by intellectual interest in the Sept. 11 attacks, Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
The problem, however, is the assumption that the "other side" is rational, and sooner or later, we can all come to some rational understanding.
Social critic Herb London, president of the Hudson Institute, a domestic and international policy think tank, said the programs are based on the flawed assumptions that conflicts conform to objective rules that can be analyzed and differences that can be talked out.

"There's a flaw that rational discourse always gives you an understanding of world affairs, but it doesn't because people don't always act rationally," he said.
And then there's this:
Some think the idea of peace programs is so good they want a federal agency dedicated to it.

Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, who hopes to win the Democratic nomination to run against President Bush in 2004, wants to take peace education to the next level by creating a Department of Peace in the president's executive cabinet.

Kucinich has introduced legislation to create the department and wants to establish a 'peace academy' modeled after military service academies that will provide a four-year concentration in peace education.
Peace 101: See that masked guy with a strap of plastic around his waist running towards you with a gun? No - wait - don't panic!! He's just a guy like you and me. He's got problems too. He's got feelings too. Maybe you two should sit down for a peaceful cup of coffee (oh wait! that's too darn American - ask him what beverage he prefers - you musn't impose, after all) - talk things out. Over this beverage (which you will pay for, naturally) he will explain to you how his life sucks, how your life doesn't, and how you are to blame.
Posted by: Vivek || 08/28/2003 5:57:15 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I thought we alredy had a "Peace Department". It's over at "Foggy Bottom"
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire || 08/28/2003 6:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Ahhh yes, I can see it now:

The Acme Conflict Resolution and Peace Center ( a professional corporation) Reasonable rates.
Also, lawns mowed.
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 7:27 Comments || Top||

#3  Will there be a Rachel Corrie memorial chair?

I motion that it be a beanbag, all squishy.
Posted by: Anon1 || 08/28/2003 9:21 Comments || Top||

#4  "all squishy",Anon,you be bad.(chuckle)
Posted by: raptor || 08/28/2003 9:52 Comments || Top||

#5  I have a degree in Conflict Management, and it's not necessary squishy stuff, though a lot of the practioners are.

At George Mason U. back in the day we spent more time about how to recognize a dispute that was NOT resolvable, as opposed to blathering about the process being a panacea.
Posted by: Hiryu || 08/28/2003 10:32 Comments || Top||

#6  BA degree in peace mgmt: Hope they teach them to say: "You wanna Biggie size that drink? Fries?"
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:29 Comments || Top||

#7  You know, if you could assemble a staff that had BOTH a graduate with a degree in peace management AND a graduate with a degree in Activism, I bet ya the shake machine would be in very capable hands!
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 08/28/2003 12:57 Comments || Top||

#8  Go read LGF about foggy bottom. There's a post from someone who works there.

Usual nonsense, we work for America, must do deals, yada, yada.
Posted by: Anonymous || 08/28/2003 13:12 Comments || Top||

#9  If you Major in this you might want also Major in Woman Studies. That way you will be dual-unemployed! Frank i don't think that someone with this degree could handle the rapid pace of fast-food. Maybe they could work at Walmart, in the shoe department? Lots of 'soft degree' types working there.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 08/28/2003 13:19 Comments || Top||

#10  If I had a child and that child told me that he/she was going to go for a degree in either a)women's studies, b)Peace and Conflict Studies, or c) activism, I would spend the tuition on an RV and nice handgun after dropping them off at Burger King myself.
I would kick their ass first, of course...

Posted by: Celissa || 08/28/2003 17:38 Comments || Top||

#11  Thanks for laugh, Celissa. Well put.
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 18:42 Comments || Top||


Africa: West
French Expose Plot to Kill Ivorian Leader
Suspected mercenaries arrested in France told investigators they were plotting to assassinate Ivory Coast President Laurent Gbagbo. French officials have not given any details about the alleged plot, but two days before the arrests, Paris prosecutors opened an investigation into suspected terrorism- and mercenary-related activities, officials said.
If the French want Bag-Boy dead, they would do it up front.
The leading suspect, former army sergeant Ibrahim Coulibaly, has denied the charge.
"Lies! All lies!"
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't me."
The prosecutors, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the group told investigators of the plot once they were arrested. French counterintelligence agents arrested 10 people over the weekend, saying they were implicated in an alleged plot to destabilize Ivory Coast. An eleventh was detained Wednesday. Six of the suspects are French citizens and four are Ivoirians. One, presented as the financiere of the group, is Lebanese, judicial officials said.
Wonder where the money trail goes?
Ivorian military officials on Wednesday said they detained about 30 people, including soldiers, linked to the French arrests.
Mercs training in France, locals getting links and safe-houses set up in IC.
Living in exile in Burkina Faso since 2000, Coulibaly had recently announced his intention in the French media to return to Ivory Coast. He led a coup in 1999 but turned power over to Gen. Robert Guei rather than taking over himself.
Idiot. Couldn’t even run a coup properly!
He saw what happened to Sergeant Doe...
France’s top anti-terrorism judge, Jean-Louis Bruguiere, placed Coulibaly under investigation for ``recruiting mercenaries with the intention of physically eliminating Mr. Gbagbo,’’ French officials said. Coulibaly is now in custody. Coulibaly’s attorney, Sorin Margulis, said his client maintains that he ``does not know’’ the people claiming that an assassination plot was in the works. ``He didn’t recruit them,’’ Margulis said.
"We say again: lies! All lies! Why don’t you believe us?"
"Nope. Nope. Never heard of 'em..."
Posted by: Steve White || 08/28/2003 12:29:12 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hardly any Rantberger likes the French. So, why do I get this delicious feeling the money trail for the merc activities will lead to French intelligence, and the investigation will eventually get lost in the shuffle?
Posted by: badanov || 08/28/2003 7:35 Comments || Top||

#2  how does a "Former Amrmy Sergeant" get exiled? Big boys get exiled, sergeants get killed...this story does stink
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 10:50 Comments || Top||

#3  Amrmy? Jeebus...Fred's gonna wonder why he put in a preview window if dumbshits like me don't bother to actually ...um...read it?
Posted by: Frank G || 08/28/2003 11:01 Comments || Top||

#4  Frank, just blame Fred for the inoperative spell checker. I hear he's gonna work on it right after the sympathy meter gets back from the shop.
Posted by: Steve || 08/28/2003 11:11 Comments || Top||

#5  "Reports that Gbagbo was a member of Greenpeace have not yet been confirmed..."
Posted by: snellenr || 08/28/2003 11:41 Comments || Top||


Korea
U.S., N. Korea Hold Direct Nuke Talks
BEIJING (AP) - Trading the cold shoulder for careful conversation, the United States and North Korea made their first direct contact in four months on Wednesday, huddling on the sidelines of a multinational summit to work through a spittle-laden venomous stalemate over Pyongyang’s nuclear program.
Doesn’t the AP reporter know the difference between venom and spittle?
China, South Korea, Japan and Russia joined them in formal discussions, eager to apply a blunt 2 x 4 delicate diplomacy to East Asia’s most alarming security problem -- North Korea. Later, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly and North Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Yong Il sat in chairs off to the side and conferred. ``The U.S. side made comments about easing North Korea’s security concerns,’’ said Wie Sung-rak, director-general of the South Korean Foreign Ministry’s North American Affairs Bureau. ``From what North Koreans said during the meeting, we could read that North Korea is willing to resolve the nuclear issue through dialogue.’’
Kim: "But first, can we have something to eat? We’re really hungry!"
State Department spokesman Philip Reeker said the U.S.-North Korea meeting lasted about 35 to 40 minutes, but he gave no other details. ``There will not be any separate formal bilateral meetings with the North Koreans,’’ said a U.S. Embassy spokesman, speaking on customary condition of anonymity.

Hours earlier, White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan characterized the talks as routine. ``What we always indicated is that these will be multilateral discussions. But nothing precludes a conversation across the table between two parties,’’ Buchan said.
James: "So, how’s your golf game?"
Kim: "Not bad, got 18 holes in before I left home, but the course is in terrible shape. All the grass was eaten! Greens were impossibly fast."
James: "Perhaps we can get a round in tomorrow?"
Kim: "That depends on how long the Russians talk!"

The extraordinary three-day, six-country summit, reconvened Thursday, but there was no immediate word on developments. The talks, the result of months of political maneuvering, are taking place on the grounds of China’s state guest house. The host country is balancing its longtime support of the communist North with its robust economic ties to the United States.

Both sides would benefit if a sturdy channel of communication were re-established - even if it didn’t lead to an immediate resolution of the nuclear dispute. Mere agreement this week to keep talking regularly would constitute some degree of success.

If recent history is any indication, though, that road will be bumpy. Earlier this month, North Korea called John Bolton, a senior American diplomat, ``human scum’’ for harshly criticizing Kim Jong Il, the leader of its isolated regime, and said it would not participate in the six-way talks if he attended. Bolton did not attend.
Unless the grand strategy is the "engaged apathy" that Steve DenBeste (hey! Another Steve! Wotta great name!) has discussed, this was a mistake. Bolton should have been the chief negotiator.
The six-party talks are a continuation of discussions from April, when U.S., Chinese and North Korean officials met in Beijing. The North’s government had long demanded one-on-one talks with the United States, but dropped its objections to the multilateral arrangement after Beijing agreed to host it.

A congenial air prevailed as the six countries’ chief envoys posed for cameras, shaking hands firmly and smiling broadly before adjourning to an chandelier-lit chamber and snapping to work around a specially assembled hexagon negotiating table.
"Hey, Kim, you old back-stabbing Commie whore, what’s shaking?"
"Jimmy! My favorite running-dog imperalist! Not much, how’s tricks with you?"

Alexander Losyukov, the Russian deputy foreign minister and head of his country’s delegation, told the ITAR-Tass news agency that he wouldn’t necessarily predict immediate progress as a result of the meeting. ``The sides have advanced a number of preliminary conditions which block the development of the talks,’’ Losyukov said without elaborating. He said North Korea declared it wishes to be nuclear-free but expressed concern about ``menaces from the U.S.’’
If they want to be nuclear-free, they can dump the weapons in the Sea of Japan. We won’t complain.
Later, at a dinner hosted by Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing, Kelly and Kim sat side by side and talked for an hour accompanied by translators, Shin said.
"Look James, I don’t care how many times you say it: Peking Duck is not really from Peking!"
The U.S.-North Korean meeting came hours after Pyongyang repeated its demand for a nonaggression pact, saying it would not give up its ``nuclear deterrent force’’ for anything less than that. The United States should ``clarify its will to make a switchover in its hostile policy toward (North Korea) and conclude a nonaggression treaty with it,’’ Rodong Sinmun, the North’s official newspaper, said in a commentary carried by KCNA, the North’s official news agency.
Someone explain to me why a ’non-aggression treaty’ is so important to these goofs.
Posted by: Steve White || 08/28/2003 12:22:12 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Someone explain to me why a ’non-aggression treaty’ is so important to these goofs."
Perhaps it's edible? Or maybe it's a translation problem: what's being translated as "non-aggression" is actually meant to be "not so much salt" and the sections promising a 20 year cessation of their nuke development program is really about serving dinner for 10 million for the next 20 years. Y'know, language can be tricky - and doubly so when it's formally diplomatic or prosaic with religious significance. We've seen this sort of thing before, if you recall...
72 Roentgens = 72 Radishes = 72 Virgins = 72 Raisins.
Yep. Language translation can be tricky stuff.

And there's another Stephen over at VodkaPundit, but he spells his name phunny. ;-)
Posted by: .com || 08/28/2003 0:49 Comments || Top||

#2  It's important because Kimmie does not want to be separated from his 72 virgins.
Posted by: Dishman || 08/28/2003 3:09 Comments || Top||

#3  You just gave me a mental image of 13-14 yr old virgins on Pyongyang street corners holding up signs that say, "Will Deflower For Food"... I don't wanna go where that leads... 8^{
Posted by: .com || 08/28/2003 4:40 Comments || Top||

#4  CNN puts it a little differently:
U.S. rules out one-on-one talks; U.S., North Korean delegates have 'informal exchange'

"Someone explain to me why a ’non-aggression treaty’ is so important to these goofs."

Simple. Can anyone guarantee that a war with NKorea is out of the question in the future? No. Can anyone guarantee that Kimmi or his family won't pursue WMD as well? Double no. A non-agression treaty would allow NKorea to place blame squarely on Washington, in the event a conflict is initiated by the United States. They might come out losing, but they could always claim the US violated the treaty. And along with that goes world opinion, UN vetos, etc etc. It's like an insurance policy that provides with the peace of mind to pursue whatever weapons program they want (secretly of course).
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 5:04 Comments || Top||

#5  ...provides them with the peace of mind...
Posted by: Raphael || 08/28/2003 5:06 Comments || Top||

#6  Someone explain to me why a ’non-aggression treaty’ is so important to these goofs.

They want one between them and the US that doesn't include an exception in case they attack South Korea.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/28/2003 8:24 Comments || Top||

#7  Someone explain to me why a ’non-aggression treaty’ is so important to these goofs.

Simple enough - they want us to pay for that treaty, like we always have. Peaceful talks dont start with rants about a sea of fire - blackmail talks do.
Posted by: flash91 || 08/28/2003 10:17 Comments || Top||



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Two weeks of WOT
Thu 2003-08-28
  Ashkelon hit by Palestinian Kassam missile
Wed 2003-08-27
  Coalition Daisy Cuts Talibase?
Tue 2003-08-26
  Israel Rockets Gaza City Targets
Mon 2003-08-25
  Bombay boom kills at least 42
Sun 2003-08-24
  IAF bangs four Hamas bigs
Sat 2003-08-23
  Paleos urge Israel to join new hudna
Fri 2003-08-22
  Paleos slam Sderot with Kassams, mortars
Thu 2003-08-21
  Shanab departs gene pool
Wed 2003-08-20
  Chechens Joining Iraqi Guerrillas
Tue 2003-08-19
  Baghdad UN HQ boomed
Mon 2003-08-18
  22 dead in Afghan festivities
Sun 2003-08-17
  Bad Guys Blow Baghdad Water Main
Sat 2003-08-16
  Toe tag for Idi
Fri 2003-08-15
  Indons nab suspect in Marriott attack
Thu 2003-08-14
  Thais nab Hambali!


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