Article

2003-08-28 Europe

Russiaâs Kamov says to sell helicopters to Turkey

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Posted by Murat 2003-08-28 8:54:42 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Iâd say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved like the Israelis do
I'm sure you speak for all the Turkish patriots who read Rantburg.

Posted by Domingo 2003-8-28 9:51:14 AM|| 2003-8-28 9:51:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Each copter comes with complementary sledgehammer for precision control-tuning!

Posted by Mitch H. 2003-8-28 10:32:52 AM|| 2003-8-28 10:32:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "Iâd say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved like the Israelis do."

Why even bother? Why not simply ask Allah (may bees pee upon him) to build them for you?

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-28 10:34:08 AM|| 2003-8-28 10:34:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 The Americans don't want you to learn their technological know-how.The Russians don't care,because...

Posted by El Id 2003-8-28 10:48:20 AM|| 2003-8-28 10:48:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Remember how well the MIG-21 cooperation between India and Russia has gone. The Indian built MIGS, um...., keeping falling down.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2003-8-28 11:01:06 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2003-8-28 11:01:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 true Chuck, but it seems to be a maintenance/pilot quality issue as much as the quality of the initial product...

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-28 11:07:05 AM|| 2003-8-28 11:07:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Depends on what the Turkish military needs, on the criticality of the need, and on how much they need to involve local industry...
Well admitting to I also think that American technology has the upper hand, but there is the matter of how much of that technology is made available when the US sells these to second countries. For example one of the most important parts of a helicopter is its main mission computer. If there is a restriction on the source codes of that computer and the buyer is compelled not to adjust it to his own needs, then he will be limited to the level the producer grants him to. You can turn the YF23 for instance into a harmless flying object by limiting its main mission capabilities. So at the end I think the Kamov Ka-50 will be a much more effective weapon since the Russians allow Turkey to build the main mission computer of that helicopter.

Posted by Murat 2003-8-28 11:11:40 AM|| 2003-8-28 11:11:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Russian helicopters are supposed to be pretty good. Just make sure you have plenty of spare parts and follow the maintenance schedules.

Posted by Steve 2003-8-28 11:26:47 AM|| 2003-8-28 11:26:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 More power to ya',Urat.Just ask the Republican Gaurds how well that Russian Equipment works.

Posted by raptor 2003-8-28 11:46:25 AM|| 2003-8-28 11:46:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Cold War is over, so I'm not breaking a sweat at any of this. Know this, that if Turkey was buying from the USA, there'd be sweet-heart deals and discounts made under the table that would be paid for by the American Taxpayer.

Turkey considered cost versus quality, chose cost, and appears to be willing to live with the consequences and benefits. Like steve implied, low maintenance is not the same as no-maintenance, so don't skimp.

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-28 12:58:44 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-28 12:58:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Flaming Sword? Flaming ..., rather. A Moslem's Allah is my God -- so you insult me. I see no need for an infantile and, surely, counterproductive religous insult. And an extremely serious insult. This ain't political correctness, it's common sense and common courtesy. An apology would suffice. Let's see if you have it in you.

Posted by Highlander 2003-8-28 2:16:58 PM|| 2003-8-28 2:16:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 A Moslem's Allah is your God? Then you must be a Muslim, because, no intelligent Christian or Jew I know would accept the teachings of Mohammed (pedophile and murderer) as the word of their God. I am sick of that 'Religions of the Book' crap and same god bullshit. "Allah" the Moon God, calls for Christian and Jewish blood. That your God?

Posted by Swiggles 2003-8-28 2:41:39 PM|| 2003-8-28 2:41:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Highlander, I'll happily apology WHEN:

1) Muslims throughout the world begin to VOICIFEROUSLY CONDEMN attacks upon unarmed citizens;

2) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that those who teach the doctrine of "Convert the 'infidels' and if you can't convert them KILL THEM" are dead wrong;

3) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and yes, even WOMEN have rights and aren't obligated to obey a religious code they have no allegiance to;

4) Muslims throughout the world acknowledge that THEY THEMSELVES are responsible for their own lifestyle (or lack thereof) and that their knee-jerk instinct to blame EVERYTHING on the Americans and/or Jews is counterproductive.

Until those events take place (and I'm not holding my breath), I will continue to not only "insult" the f*cked-up relic known as "Islam", but I will do everything in my power to undermine it and those that adhere to it.

Are we clear?

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-28 3:09:18 PM|| 2003-8-28 3:09:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 America doesn't do anyone any favors by selling products to contries that don't have the infrastructure to support. The Navy sold some surplus Frigates to Pakistan in the late eighties. No problem with that except that these frigates were equipped with P fired boilers that are difficult to opperate. These ships are undoubtedbly tied to the peir, while many navies throughout the world continue to sail Sumner Class destroyers from WWII. These destroyers could take abuse and were very foregiving with respect to missed planned maintenance checks. Soviet equipment generally performs well and hopefully will suit Turkey well. In the next 20 years, while these choppers are in service, the lives of various NATO troops other than Turks might depend on their performance.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-8-28 3:22:28 PM|| 2003-8-28 3:22:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Russians allow Turkey to build the main mission computer of that helicopter.

If you think Russia will give you their top-notch stuff, you're living in a dreamworld, which you are by the looks of things.

Posted by Raphael 2003-8-28 3:50:40 PM|| 2003-8-28 3:50:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I have to reluctantly agree with Murat here.. Russian gear may be second-string compared to top of the line American weapons, but when properly maintained, it's good enough. And Turkey (unlike certain un-named Arab nations) doesn't usually have problems with people claiming that "repair work" is for the common rabble.

*cough*cough*SaudiArabia*cough*

Additionally, Soviet designed gear isn't as highly computerized, and therefore is more difficult to "cripple". And when steps ARE taken to hobble the performance of a weapon, it's easier to reverse it.

Posted by Ed Becerra 2003-8-28 3:59:41 PM|| 2003-8-28 3:59:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Iâd say shove aside the dependency on American technology, start creating diversity and have more of our own technology involved... Ummm...not quite, Murat. The Ka-50-2 is the product of a joint effort by Israel Aircraft Industries' Lahav Division and the Kamov Company. Kamov is responsible for the helicopter airframe while IAI is responsible for the avionics and weapons delivery system. All you're getting is warmed over 2nd hand US technology delivered via Israel. You're still dependent on the US supply chain...go ask the Chinese what happened to their Phalcon AWACs that Israel was building for them.

Posted by Watcher 2003-8-28 5:39:45 PM|| 2003-8-28 5:39:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Flaming Sword>

Then you must be a Muslim, because, no intelligent Christian or Jew I know would accept the teachings of Mohammed (pedophile and murderer) as the word of their God. I am sick of that 'Religions of the Book' crap and same god bullshit.

BWAHAHAHAH!! LOL! Oh my, speaking of intelligent Christians and Jews having a problem with Islam because Mohammed was a "pedophile and murderer". What shall we speak of Moses then? Who was angry with his men, not because they killed all adult males among the Midianites, but because they had spared the women and little boys instead?

Numbers-

31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
----

Now, now, what do you think this "keep alive for yourselves" means, Flaming Sword, concerning the women *children*?

And "kill every male among the little ones" ? Sure sounds like a genocidal murderer to me.

What do you think now of the teachings of the Torah, supposedly written by Moses, Flaming Sword?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-28 10:01:42 PM|| 2003-8-28 10:01:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Aris, a small technicality: what you quoted there was a recounting of a story, not a general "teaching" or instruction on how to live.

Posted by Raphael 2003-8-28 11:33:25 PM|| 2003-8-28 11:33:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris: Raphael hits it here. I'm trying to figure out your point. You seem to be saying that both Moses and Mohammed were pedophile-murderers. If so, are you also then saying that Mohammed and Moses were equivalent figures in their religions? Otherwise, why make the comparison?

Mohammed's teachings are Islam's core. He IS Islam. I don't think you can make that analogy to Moses. Jesus, maybe, but not Moses.

I think you swung and missed on this one...

Posted by R. McLeod 2003-8-29 2:20:52 AM|| 2003-8-29 2:20:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 No, we aren't clear. I am; you aren't. Here's a tutorial. Religion spiritual and religion temporal are quite different things. Your rant about the church temporal does not relive you of bigotry when attacking the church spiritual. Ever read any philosophy or history?

Are we clear now?

Posted by Highlander 2003-8-29 10:09:40 AM|| 2003-8-29 10:09:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 "You seem to be saying that both Moses and Mohammed were pedophile-murderers. If so, are you also then saying that Mohammed and Moses were equivalent figures in their religions? "

Yes. Both received the word of God, and both are said to have written it down.

"Mohammed's teachings are Islam's core. He IS Islam.. I don't think you can make that analogy to Moses. Jesus, maybe, but not Moses. I think you swung and missed on this one... "

Pfft. No, it's the Qu'ran that's Islam's core, not Mohammed. Qu'ran is the analogue of Jesus, as Qu'ran is the Word of God given form, and Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

My analogy holds. Mohammed is said to have received the word of God and wrote it down, Moses is said to have received the word of God and wrote it down. Islam says there's been no prophet greater than Mohammed, Judaism says there's been no prophet greater than Moses.

And both of these seem like killers and conquerors in my eyes.

Jesus and Christianity has no clear analogy, I'm afraid, as for the Christians Jesus *is* God, not just a man and prophet as Moses and Mohammed are said to be in Judaism and Islam respectively. Christians have the twain Peter-and-Paul, perhaps. But even there the analogy isn't perfect.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-29 11:39:57 AM|| 2003-8-29 11:39:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 No, Highlander, you remain as murky as ever. I will NEVER show any respect (whether real or feigned) for that brutally violent and repressvive collection of dictatorial orders collectively referred to as "Islam".

You and Aris may try as you like to make equivalency arguments, but the bulk of Christian and Jewish believers do NOT remain silent when terrorists attack unarmed civilians, nor do remain silent when the more radical of their adherents begin to teach the doctrine that non-believers must be killed or converted.

There is NOTHING good that comes from Islam, nor can much be said for those who profess to believe it while sitting idly by and watching their "brethren" commit unspeakable and indefensible travesties.

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-31 3:43:38 PM|| 2003-8-31 3:43:38 PM|| Front Page Top

15:43 Flaming Sword
20:38 Super Hose
13:24 Aris Katsaris
11:39 Aris Katsaris
10:09 Highlander
02:20 R. McLeod
01:55 R. McLeod
01:32 R. McLeod
23:54 GregJ
23:33 Raphael
23:27 Raphael
22:58 tu3031
22:54 Fred
22:49 BigFire
22:47 BigFire
22:23 tu3031
22:16 Alaska Paul
22:16 g wiz
22:09 Super Hose
22:01 Aris Katsaris
21:59 Super Hose
21:55 snellenr
21:50 Super Hose
21:44 Super Hose