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UN divided over missile response
Today's Headlines
Headline Comments [Views]
Page 5: Russia-Former Soviet Union
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Page 4: Opinion
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-Lurid Crime Tales-
New York Subway Power Saw Massacre
NEW YORK: A man grabbed two cordless power saws off a subway station workbench and went on a rampage Thursday, swinging the saws at riders and slicing open a man's chest before running away, police said.
Not quite as threatening as a Stihl chain saw, but environmentaly safe
The 64-year-old victim, whose name was not released, was hospitalized in critical but stable condition. Police were searching for the suspect, described by witnesses as a thin man in his 30s, who had earrings in both ears and was possibly carrying a teddy bear.
I can hear the defense now; "The bear told me to do it"
The attack occurred before dawn at a subway station a few blocks south of Columbia University.

Wielding a saw in each hand, the man took a swipe at one rider on a platform and missed, police said. Moments later, he cut into the man's chest at a turnstile before bolting out of the station, still carrying the power tools, which were later found in a trash can.
Details, dammit, I want details! Dewalt? Makita? Jig, circular or reciprocating? 14 or 18 volt?
Police were reviewing security camera videotape.

The attack came two weeks after a Boston man was charged with stabbing four people _ three of them tourists _ over a 13-hour period in the subway and the theater district in Manhattan.
New York, the friendliest big city in the world.
Posted by: Steve || 07/06/2006 14:28 || Comments || Link || [11 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Concealed Carry law would have fixed this shit toot sweet.

However, this is New York, where only the criminals are allowed weapons....
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 07/06/2006 15:14 Comments || Top||

#2  However, this is New York, where only the criminals are allowed weapons....

Right. They don't take kindly to self-defense in NYC. Just ask Bernard Goetz.
Posted by: Xbalanke || 07/06/2006 15:18 Comments || Top||

#3  At least it isn't kitchen gas cannisters exploding...
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/06/2006 15:32 Comments || Top||

#4  Is it just the MSM's 'if it bleeds it leads' reporting, or have things gone freaky since Rudy left?
Posted by: Ebbavitle Omomotle4723 || 07/06/2006 17:30 Comments || Top||

#5  All carpenters should have to register their power tools. Put a four week waiting period on all purchases from Home Depot. No more unlicensed sales at weekend Tool Shows. Make Saturday Afternoon electric screwdrivers illegal.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/06/2006 17:49 Comments || Top||

#6  Now, I don't mean anything by this, but what color was the sawyer ?

Posted by: wxjames || 07/06/2006 17:49 Comments || Top||

#7  Ummmm.... still in the market for tasteful B&W glossies.
Posted by: 6 || 07/06/2006 18:01 Comments || Top||

#8  talk to the mailed glove 6er
Posted by: Frank G || 07/06/2006 22:36 Comments || Top||

#9  The attack occurred before dawn at a subway staton a few blocks south of Columbia University.

Steve-O, I'm sooooo disappointed. You missed the most glaring opportunity for inline comments on that one, especially right after the "holding the teddy bear" description, lol!
Posted by: BA || 07/06/2006 23:00 Comments || Top||


AIDS speaker charged with feigning illness to defraud Pennsylvania
A woman who travelled the lecture circuit with her account of being raped and infected with AIDS as a child has been charged with defrauding the state of Pennsylvania of $66,000 US by falsely claiming to have the disease. Cassey Weierbach, 27, was arraigned Friday on charges of theft by deception, forgery, tampering with records and making false statements.

She has told her story for years to news reporters, churches, youth groups and medical conferences. But in June, The Morning Call newspaper of Allentown published a story in which a pastor accused Weierbach of duping her congregation. Arrest records state that Weierbach used fabricated laboratory records to indicate she had AIDS so she could receive medical benefits in 2003. She also provided false information in 2004 and 2005 to at least three area doctors, one of whom became suspicious after Weierbach refused AIDS medications, according to an affidavit. Weierbach, free on $25,000 bail, did not have a listed telephone, and it was unclear whether she had a lawyer.
Posted by: Fred || 07/06/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  She could use, as her defense: "fake, but accurate."
Posted by: AllenS || 07/06/2006 7:31 Comments || Top||

#2  I figure it's another rare wasting disease.
Posted by: 6 || 07/06/2006 18:02 Comments || Top||


Britain
First multi-faith service at Westminster Abbey to mark July 7
The first ever multi-faith service at Westminster Abbey, central London, was being held Wednesday, ahead of the anniversary of the July 7 London transport bombings, it was announced here. Business leaders, MPs and diplomats are among those who have been invited to the event, which features participation from nine major religions. The service was the brainchild of the first Muslim High Sheriff (honorary title) of Greater London, Dr Khalid Hameed.

Dr Hameed said in a statement "I believe in the goodness of all religions; I also believe we are now a multi-cultural society here in this country and we have to live within the UK at peace with each other. We saw what happened last year, the horrible episode on July 7 when those who were not outsiders, but British-grown people, who perpetrated that crime and therefore I said to myself that this year ... let us do a multi-faith observance service", the statement added. He said the event would send out a message in London and beyond that "we will not be intimidated by terrorists, we will not be intimidated by radicals. We intend to live life together practising whatever faiths we wish to in harmony and at peace with each other".

The date was chosen, Dr Hameed said, as it was close to the July 7 anniversary and a reminder "of that horrible day in the life of London", but would not compete with commemorative events. Among faiths taking part in the service will be Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews and Jains.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/06/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I'm pleased to hear Christians will be allowed to participate, since it is being held in one of their churches.

/sarcasm off
Posted by: Swamp Blondie || 07/06/2006 3:06 Comments || Top||

#2  Nice picture ... The story and the picture kinda reminds me of this

Care bear stare , ohh yeh !
Posted by: MacNails || 07/06/2006 4:02 Comments || Top||

#3  What the funk is a Jain? that's new.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/06/2006 4:06 Comments || Top||

#4  Tarzan and Jain?
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/06/2006 4:07 Comments || Top||

#5  The Jains are from India. They teach compassion for all life, and go out of their way to keep from doing anything they consider violent to living things. They will step around ants instead of squashing them, they don't eat meat or root vegetables (since pulling them out of the ground causes pain to the plant), and were a huge influence on Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolence. Jains are peaceful and accepting of others' faiths, and are highly regarded in India even today. They give money to churches and mosques, and even help run Hindu temples.

Too bad all of that won't stop a Muslim whackjob from killing them for being infidels.
Posted by: Swamp Blondie || 07/06/2006 4:49 Comments || Top||

#6  Thanks SB - my edjumacation continues...
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/06/2006 4:54 Comments || Top||

#7  "I believe in the goodness of all religions; I also believe we are now a multi-cultural society here in this country and we have to live within the UK at peace with each other."

You have done well on the path to dhimmitude thus far.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/06/2006 6:57 Comments || Top||

#8  What I would like to know is when will the first interfaith service be held in a mosque??

Ooops, thats right, Islam is only tolerant of other faiths as long as two conditions prevail. 1. As long as it is a minority. 2. As long as it is in someone elses place. ie non-muslims are barred from Mecca and Allen might get offended if one of those other equally "good" religions were allowed to worship or pray in a mosque.

All this lovey talk from even moderate muslims is a one way street. Its all talk. When push comes to shove though, dont hold your breath for any reciprocation.

Our holy places are not as holy as theirs, I guess, and therefore its entirely appropriate to arrange to act out this little facade in one of our churches.

Since it was the muslim guys idea, why was it booked it booked in a church? Surely there are big enough mosques in Londinastan?

Will anyone of the PC crowd attending this thing in good faith even think to ask this question? Someone should ask the good muslim guy if one of these will ever be held in a mosque. See what he says. But then that would expose the truth that islam isnt as tolerant as Christianity, wouldnt it and that just wouldnt do.

Posted by: peggy || 07/06/2006 12:46 Comments || Top||

#9  Peggy:

You just put the nail and the hammer together. I used to ride to work with 2 Muslims. Right after 9/11, I called one of them and asked if he wanted to go with me (to my Church) for a "interfaith/non-denominational" memorial service. He politely declined. When I asked him months later if they'd do anything like that at the mossk, he said "No, and I wouldn't feel comfortable even inviting you to the mosque." That began my long and studious journey to my conclusion I now hold....Islam doesn't "convert" anyone in the way any other religion does (by acts of kindness, by living by example, lively dialogue/debate & handy-dandy presentations), it truly "converts" only by intimidation (in the best cases), brain-washing and at the tip of a scimitar (in the worst cases).

I now look back on my conversations with him in our carpool and see the signs of "rage" the 9/11 hijackers had. He's about as American as can be (grew up in NYC since Middle School), his parents are from Bangladesh, and yet, any subject I approached about Islam, I was always wrong. He used to joke about how he'd treat any future wife (I now think he wasn't joking), and anytime I mentioned "Palestine," he'd fly off the handle immediately about the Joooooos, even though he's barely been to Bangladesh, much less NEVER having been to Israel. It's all about dar-al-Islam to them.
Posted by: BA || 07/06/2006 13:23 Comments || Top||

#10  BA

Take another angle of approacah. Begin asking him why is he not as indignant about the genocide of Sudanese CVhristians, or about the genocide aginst Black Muslims in Sudan. Or about what did the Islmaic world did when the Pakistani Army went on a killing and raping spree in Bangla Desh. Also ask him where in the Koran it is tiold that the Arabs are entitled to keep for themeselves the enormous profits they make with the hadj adt the expenses of piss poor countries like Bangla Desh.

Ask him if he considers the Arabs a superior race since obviously a crime agaisbnt Arabs (Paklestinians) seems to be much worse than ione against Bangla Deshis.
Posted by: JFM || 07/06/2006 13:47 Comments || Top||

#11  As I recall from discussions with a dear Jain friend, the Jains predate the Buddhists by several centuries. I'm under the impression their sage is the first incarnation, whereas Buddha came several reincarnations later, and the Jains saw no reason to switch over to the newcomer.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/06/2006 14:16 Comments || Top||

#12  JFM:

Needless to say, we don't talk much anymore. Sudan is one of my BIGGEST (behind the Paleos and Saudi funding of it all) peeves of the entire "religion of peace." I mean, there you have direct, true racism (Arab muslims killing African muslims) as well as religious genocide (Muslims slaughtering Christians/Animists). No where else (i'd argue, not even in "Palestine") do you have such a vivid picture of Islam's true intent and goals....complete and total domination and submission of all others.
Posted by: BA || 07/06/2006 16:07 Comments || Top||

#13  So is it a religion, or a dogma of terror ?
It is a clever entrapment of the heart and soul. It uses brainwashing, and intimidation to 'teach' the one true path. You MUST accept Islam. You MUST surrender. Submit to your position of dhimmitude while I, your master enjoy the fruits of life or death, virgins.
Anybody still thinks this is a fvcking religion is already dead.
When do we march ?
Posted by: wxjames || 07/06/2006 18:04 Comments || Top||

#14  Just one thing wrong with the graphic: isn't Piglet haraam?
Posted by: xbalanke || 07/06/2006 23:30 Comments || Top||


Great White North
Police unconcerned about Muslim delegates
Peel Regional Police say there is no reason to be concerned as thousands of Muslim delegates from around the world begin arriving in Mississauga for a weekend convention.

The 30th annual Convention of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Canada starts tomorrow and runs through Sunday at the International Centre in Malton.

The convention comes just weeks after six Muslim men from Mississauga were arrested last month in a counter-terrorism sweep that made headlines around trhe world. It is alleged that a plot to blow up government buildings, take hostages and even to kill the Prime Minister was hatched in a storefront Meadowvale mosque.

Meanwhile, a terrorism expert has told a Toronto newspaper that "police will have an interest in who will be participating."

Dave Harris, a former Canadian Security Intelligence Service chief of strategic planning, told The Toronto Sun police should be keenly interested in who will be attending the conference. Topics on the agenda include how Muslims can reconcile faith with loyalty to their country and the consequences of abandoning the principles of Islam.

Peel police are aware of the annual event and senior service members will be attending, said Cont. Craig Platt.

But, he added, "We have no concerns."
Posted by: ryuge || 07/06/2006 08:04 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Topics on the agenda include how Muslims can reconcile faith with loyalty to their country and the consequences of abandoning the principles of Islam.
I believe we already know this basic lesson. Sharia law is not compatable with legislated law, therefore, the only way is for Canada to except Islam. Aka dhimmitude.
Posted by: wxjames || 07/06/2006 9:50 Comments || Top||

#2  The police are unconcerned about thousands of Ahmadiyya muslims...but I bet the local Sunnis are seething.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/06/2006 10:26 Comments || Top||

#3  A quick reminder: the Ahmadiyyas are rejected by the Wahhabs and Salafists because the Ahmadi branch of The Religion of Peace® rejects the doctrine of jihad by the sword. For those of you keeping score at home.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/06/2006 10:29 Comments || Top||

#4  Here's RB's take on the same convention held just outside of DC.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/06/2006 10:32 Comments || Top||

#5  Am I the only one thinking "Target-rich environment"?
Posted by: mojo || 07/06/2006 14:58 Comments || Top||

#6 
A quick reminder: the Ahmadiyyas are rejected by the Wahhabs and Salafists because the Ahmadi branch of The Religion of Peace® rejects the doctrine of jihad by the sword. For those of you keeping score at home.


Nope, it is much worse than that. The Ahmadiay tell Muhammad was not teh last prophet and that God can and it fact lready has sent other prophets to complete or rtectify Coran's message. Le's remember that at least for Salafis and perhaps for others Coran was not created but has existed swithout aingle comma changed from all eternity.

Fact that Ahmadiyas believe in ulterior prophets means they don't feel compelled to try to imitate Muhammad in everything (including clothing, example: they wear Indian-style turbans not arabic-style ones) or to regard at everyone of hos words as teh ultimate in wisdom. And thta makes regular Muslims mad. Besides 99% of regular Muslimsthey don't consider Ahmadiyas as Muslims since they admit other prophets.

As an aside their TV broacasts include words unimaginable in regular Muslim broadcasts. Like Love.
Posted by: JFM || 07/06/2006 14:59 Comments || Top||

#7  "...regular Muslims mad. Besides 99% of regular Muslimsthey don't consider Ahmadiyas as Muslims since they admit other prophets."

There are Muslim Mormons? Who knew???
Posted by: Thravith Cromoter6533 || 07/06/2006 19:42 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Politix
Indicted DeLay must stay on November ballot
HOUSTON (Reuters) - Former House Republican Leader Tom DeLay, indicted in Texas on campaign-finance related charges, must stay on the ballot in November's congressional elections despite withdrawing from the race, a federal judge ruled on Thursday. A local Republican Party official said the ruling by a U.S. court judge in Austin, Texas, would be appealed within 30 days. "Ultimately, everyone knows the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals will be the final arbiter of this," said Harris County Republican Party Chairman Jared Woodfill.

DeLay was forced to resign as majority leader last year after being indicted in Texas. Hurt by the criminal charges as well as an expanding scandal involving disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff, he dropped his re-election bid when he faced a strong Democratic challenger. A Republican backbencher who rose to power as a conservative leader in the House, he resigned from Congress on June 9 to give Republican Party officials time to replace him on the November ballot. DeLay had moved from his suburban Houston congressional district to Virginia.

Democrats sought an order to keep DeLay on the ballot, claiming he could not declared ineligible under the U.S. Constitution until election day. DeLay has not been charged in the Abramoff scandal, but two former aides have pleaded guilty to corruption charges.
Fine, then Tom should move back and run on the platform of "If found guilty, I'll quit and let the governor pick my replacement, not the democrat's." Throw it right in their faces. What's he got to lose?
Posted by: Steve || 07/06/2006 14:20 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  interesting move, Steve. It just might work.
Posted by: 2b || 07/06/2006 14:38 Comments || Top||

#2  I would rather an open rebellion against the court and threats to impeach anyone with a hand in this travisty.
Sometimes violence is the correct reaction.
Posted by: wxjames || 07/06/2006 17:52 Comments || Top||

#3  What's he got to lose? Not being the first story on the evening news every night. Not revitalizing the "Culture of Corruption" meme for the donks and MSM. Look at what they're doing to Rush. It's ugly and going to stay that way till after the 2012 election when even NPR will have to concede that the donks are the permanent minority. Better to be an influence peddler.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/06/2006 18:12 Comments || Top||

#4  Siphons off votes with name recognition?
Posted by: 6 || 07/06/2006 18:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Contrast this with New Jersey where a new Dem Senate candidate was inserted into the ballot less than 30 days before the election (in violation of NJ law).
Posted by: ed || 07/06/2006 19:16 Comments || Top||


First Muslim Congressjihadi?; Dems Run "Former" Farrakhan Stooge
Keith Ellison is hoping that Minneapolis, a city of mostly white Christians, is ready to make a black Muslim its next congressman. Ellison, a state representative and criminal defense lawyer, is the Democratic-Farmer-Labor-endorsed candidate in the liberal-leaning 5th Congressional District. That makes him the favorite in his quest to become the first Muslim member of Congress. But Ellison is dogged by questions about his faith, particularly after disclosures about his past associations with the Nation of Islam, a group led by Louis Farrakhan.

While Ellison has since denounced Farrakhan, Jewish leaders say the candidate's ties to the organization remain an issue. "For Jews, there's no ambiguity when it comes to the Nation of Islam," said Stephen Silberfarb, executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas. "It's a group that hates the Jewish people."

Around 1990, Ellison — then a University of Minnesota law student known as Keith E. Hakim — wrote several columns in the student newspaper that are getting a second look. One column defended Farrakhan against charges of anti-Semitism; a second suggested the creation of a state for black residents. In 1995, Ellison helped organize a delegation to Farrakhan's Million Man March in Washington...
Posted by: Anginens Threreng8133 || 07/06/2006 02:29 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well, Robert Byrd is a "former" David Duke stooge.
Posted by: Korora || 07/06/2006 11:13 Comments || Top||

#2  Interesting to note that Farrakhan's own son is a top prospect in college hoops.
Posted by: badanov || 07/06/2006 12:36 Comments || Top||

#3  Powerline has been over this like a blanket.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/06/2006 13:58 Comments || Top||

#4  "white Christians?"

Dude...wake up and smell the demographics. Minneapolis is one of the least "Christian" major cities in the US.
Posted by: anymouse || 07/06/2006 19:12 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Cab driver attacked by passenger on Sterling Highway in Alaska
From Channel 2 news in Anchorage.
Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - by Jill Burke

Anchorage, Alaska - An Anchorage cab driver survived a brutal attack yesterday. The driver’s passenger attacked him with a box cutter while he was driving on the highway.
Clue #1, a box cutter was used in the crime.
This is a frightening story that’s also somewhat bizarre.
But not to Rantburgers.
According to troopers a man asks this cab driver to take him to a Denali hotel. When the cabbie goes to Denali Street in Anchorage, the passenger indicated he meant Denali Park.
A hundred or so miles north, toward Mt. McKinley.
And then the driver learned that the passenger wanted to drive away from Anchorage to stay at a hotel in the mountains. That man, 19-year-old Samir Ahmad, ended up talking the cabbie into driving toward Homer.
Which is about 240 road miles south of Anchorage.
Behind the wheel was 57-year-old Ron Estrella, driving an Anchorage-based Alaska Cab.

According to Alaska State Troopers, around 3:00 yesterday afternoon at about Mile 101 of the Sterling Highway, Estrella ran Ahmad’s credit card which was declined.
Bad move on Estrella's part. Should have run the card first before such a major voyage in a city cab.
And it was at that point, while the cab was reportedly driving down a hill on the Sterling Highway toward Homer, that Ahmad reached from the back seat and stabbed Estrella in the neck.

“It was a box cutter, the kind where you can click the blade out to different lengths and he only had it out just a very short distance so fortunately it didn’t cut very deep,” said Greg Wilkinson, Alaska State Troopers.
Estrella's lucky that the guy was stupid.
We’re told Estrella fought Ahmad off and got the box cutter away from him while passersby called troopers. Estrella was taken to the hospital, treated, and released today. Meanwhile, Ahmad is in jail in Kenai, charged with attempted murder.
Clue #2. Samir Ahmad is a name not common in Puerto Rico.
Ahmad doesn’t appear to live in Alaska, and he just arrived here from Florida two weeks ago. He apparently told the cab driver he was from Puerto Rico. But the cabbie, who speaks Spanish, told troopers Ahmad didn’t seem to speak Spanish very well. So his background remains a bit of a mystery.
Some friggin mystery. That is an arabic name, Jillie. Start diggin'.
There are some weird people on the long stretch of road between Anchorage and Homer. My friend Springfield travels with me on such road trips.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 07/06/2006 13:42 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I'll tell the Captain to watch for puertorriqueños named Ahmad during her stay, Alaska Paul. Thanks for the heads up.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/06/2006 16:39 Comments || Top||

#2  Springfield, a Brittany Spaniel maybe?
Posted by: 6 || 07/06/2006 18:25 Comments || Top||

#3  Springfield, 1911-A1 breed.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 07/06/2006 18:47 Comments || Top||

#4  Ahmed is Gaza Rican.
Posted by: ed || 07/06/2006 19:06 Comments || Top||


Science & Technology
Shotgun shell type and order in magazine
I have an 8-round 12-gauge pump shotgun, and 00 buck and slug shells. I have it for, ahem, 'problem resolution & positive value reinforcement' purposes.

I have been pondering in what order I should load the shells. Should I start with the heavy hitting power of a slug? Or should I "start the party with buck" and expand my killzone? I have been thinking buck/slug/slug/buck/buck....

Anyone have any thoughts on this quandry?


Posted by: Brett || 07/06/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Have the first round a slug and then expand as needed. After all, your first shot is going to be aimed while the others will just be pointed. BTW, don't use either inside a house, they'll both go through walls.
Posted by: Xenophon || 07/06/2006 0:53 Comments || Top||

#2  I only a 3 inch 5 shell capasity. I have the reverse order the 3X 00 shells and 2X Sabotted slugs. The 32 cal pellets first and followed up with 50 cal slug or 2 if needed. Just the sound of a shell being racked will settle most situations that and the bright red bore sighted laser designator. All shots are going to be aimed. This is a house gun.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 07/06/2006 2:17 Comments || Top||

#3  I throw in a mix of flechettes...

...with mini-slugs from Aguila
Posted by: Skidmark || 07/06/2006 6:28 Comments || Top||

#4  I have a .20 gauge Remington 870 mag express under my bed, also doubles as my deer shotgun. All sabot slugs (due to the rifle barrel) - usually federals or whatever .20 gauge sabot walmart is selling - buckhammers are good to.
If I had a smooth bore I'd prolly throw the double-ought in first then alternate from slug to buckshot, but that's just me.

Nothing like the sound of that pump racking a round to scare off the scumbags.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/06/2006 8:30 Comments || Top||

#5  If the intruder makes it past the Claymores I use a 12ga. pump. The first shell is a slug and the other two are buckshot.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 07/06/2006 8:42 Comments || Top||

#6  There is a lot of discussion on the subject of what size buckshot. I've got an 12 ga. Model 870 with a deer barrel under the bed loaded with #1 buck (16 pellets). Throws a bigger pattern. Here are a few links:

Guns and Ammo: Let's consider pellet size. Regular shot runs from No. 12 all the way up to 000 buckshot. The odds-on favorite for combat (read: anti-personnel) use is 00 buck. Double-ought pellets are approximately .33 caliber and weigh around 52 to 54 grains apiece. You can get as many as 12 of them in a 2 3/4-inch "short magnum" shell, but standard and low-recoil loads use either eight or nine pellets. This is probably the best all-around choice. However, there is a low-recoil load from Federal that uses eight 000 pellets that I feel is the best possible compromise. But to be frank, this is an area where there's a lot of leeway. At "inside the house" ranges, 10 to 12 yards is a long shot, and shot size isn't critical. Even No. 8 birdshot will pattern into a six- to eight-inch circle at these distances. And it'll do plenty of damage, too.

Firearms Tactical Institute: For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes. Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body. For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.
Posted by: Steve || 07/06/2006 9:54 Comments || Top||

#7  CQB indoors - I use 2 #8 shot as my initial load followed by one 00 then deer slug. Alternates 00/slug from there on.

Why such a light initial load? Overpenetration. I have seen what 00 and slugs can do to innocent occupants of adjacent rooms. Typical drywall on 18" 2x4 centers doesn't do much in the way of protection.

With an adequate choke and internal ranges, #8 is fine for home defense, and due to less fears of overpenetation its actually superior to #1, 00 or slugs in an interior situation IMHO.

The rest of the loadout is designed for more fatality and range during pursuit. Dont' want them getting away wounded.

Besides, if I need a stopper, thats then I go to the pistol. It is much more manueverable than a longarm and I always have one nearby - plus Im the most trained with that particular weapon over the years. Shopping around for a new one, may go USP45 Compact. Until then, my old federal Glock23 (.40S&W Hydrashock rounds) simply works every time.

But nothing in this world says "stop" like a +P (high velocity) .45ACP JHP round impact. So I'm going back to that after over 15 years, but not to the 1911 design.

Posted by: Oldspook || 07/06/2006 10:26 Comments || Top||

#8  20 Ga w/ #6,a Python 357 Mag, plus a Kuhkri.
Posted by: bk || 07/06/2006 11:47 Comments || Top||

#9  A .357 magnum loaded with MagSafe's (like a shot shell but will not go through walls).
Posted by: usmc6743 || 07/06/2006 12:11 Comments || Top||

#10  I obviously need more imagination. 8 rounds of 00 buck max loads in a 12 gauge pump (with tac light and C More sight). Interesting data point on #1 buck.
Posted by: Whiskey Mike || 07/06/2006 12:50 Comments || Top||

#11  Some cool links on the subject if you've missed these awesome, yet somewhat only partially scientific sites.

Shotguns at The Box Of Truth
Shotguns

More Shotguns

Shotgun Patterns

12 vs 20gauge

Also, I found this dude's postings on another board a little awesome and disturbing.
Tales from the Morgue
Posted by: Anon4021 || 07/06/2006 16:40 Comments || Top||

#12  Anon4021---Tales from the morgue. Treasure trove of great information. Thanks for pointing it out.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 07/06/2006 18:55 Comments || Top||

#13  .38, handloads, 125 grain semi-wadcutter with 5 1/2 grains of red dot behind it, also sometimes called the "FBI" load, flat shooting, (1250 FtSec+) shorter range, less distance penetration, for outdoors got a nice SKS with a 30 round mag (I lie, several 30 round mags)loded with stagger mix of 1.Winchester hollow points (Plastic point) 2. Solids (Lead Soft nose), and hard military.(Autos and idiots who think they're armored, goes right through) and never needed either yet.

Killed some trees for practice, works good on foot thick pines, also a few junk cars to check penetration.

You are NOT safe.
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 07/06/2006 20:01 Comments || Top||



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