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2019-04-16 Europe
Notre-Dame blaze probably accidental, French prosecutors say
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Posted by Besoeker 2019-04-16 07:37|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [6520 views ]  Top

#1 That certainly didn't take long. But then there's the investigation...which could take months, even years.

Posted by Besoeker 2019-04-16 07:40||   2019-04-16 07:40|| Front Page Top

#2 Suspiciously rapid conclusion?
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2019-04-16 07:40||   2019-04-16 07:40|| Front Page Top

#3 Yes, suspicious fire closely followed by suspicious conclusion.
Posted by Besoeker 2019-04-16 07:42||   2019-04-16 07:42|| Front Page Top

#4 Hope is not a synonym of probably.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2019-04-16 08:47||   2019-04-16 08:47|| Front Page Top

#5 With French Normals commuting to Paris every weekend to protest their condition and circumstance, I am more than certain they are 'favoring the theory of an accident'. To suggest otherwise might yet prove unwise, even at this late stage.
Posted by Cesare 2019-04-16 09:37||   2019-04-16 09:37|| Front Page Top

#6 There was restoration work going on there and an accidental fire fits. I'll lean towards that unless other events/evidence comes to the fore.
Posted by DarthVader 2019-04-16 09:53||   2019-04-16 09:53|| Front Page Top

#7 A few years back the historic Cabildo in New Orleans was being renovated and caught fire, apparently due to some metal gutter welding or such, that overheated the old, dry wood behind it, which burst into flames later. The building is a lot smaller than Notre Dame Cathedral and they were able to save it (with much costly repair) but it was a close call. Even if the fire appeared to have started in more than one place that could easily be the result of invisible connections in the sub-roof just popping out where the flame could be seen in multiple places. Or it could be arson (Islamic or otherwise) - I doubt physical evidence will ever tell and even if someone confesses, they could just be brag/lying. I find it amazing they saved anything.
Posted by Glenmore 2019-04-16 10:32||   2019-04-16 10:32|| Front Page Top

#8 More recent reports indicate a fire alarm went off 20 minutes before fire was actually seen and was not found in a search. That raises some suspicion given that if someone spotted the fire, why didn't they direct responders TO the fire
Posted by Silentbrick 2019-04-16 10:57||   2019-04-16 10:57|| Front Page Top

#9 Watch: How the Notre-Dame fire spread throughout the building
Posted by Skidmark 2019-04-16 11:12||   2019-04-16 11:12|| Front Page Top

#10 If I remember right, yellow smoke is a bad thing.
Maybe KS can give us a read on that.
Posted by Skidmark 2019-04-16 11:16||   2019-04-16 11:16|| Front Page Top

#11 French billionaires donate hundreds of millions to rebuild Notre-Dame
Posted by Skidmark 2019-04-16 11:25||   2019-04-16 11:25|| Front Page Top

#12 That raises some suspicion given that if someone spotted the fire, why didn't they direct responders TO the fire

If it was a smoke or heat detector on a newer 'addressable' system, it would have been able to pinpoint the exact location of the fire by that particular device's location. Older systems only show alarm in general areas and if this was an older system, it might have just registered 'Attic' (Grenier de Maison). That would be a huge area to check out in a structurally complicated building like this.
Posted by Mullah Richard 2019-04-16 12:46||   2019-04-16 12:46|| Front Page Top

#13 Just watched Macron speech to the nation about the fire. God, what a load of codswallop. So utterly French and loaded with meaningless drivel, and not a word about religion or God, totally secular.
Posted by NoMoreBS 2019-04-16 14:13||   2019-04-16 14:13|| Front Page Top

#14 Paris has a priest firefighter who ran into a burning cathedral to save Jesus's crown of thorns.

There's hope.
Posted by European Conservative 2019-04-16 15:13||   2019-04-16 15:13|| Front Page Top

#15 Older systems only show alarm in general areas and if this was an older system, it might have just registered 'Attic'

Or the firestarters may just have pulled the alarm on their way out to make sure someone saw their work.
Posted by Skidmark 2019-04-16 15:23||   2019-04-16 15:23|| Front Page Top

#16 Maybe KS can give us a read on that.

First, the vast majority of my experience, what that is, is grassland. Quite a bit of those fires trace right back to carelessness, such as grinding/welding on a gate by them self or Carl was the hand that day. Fire starts, worker doesn't notice until the weld/grind is done on account of the safety equipment and focus on the job. If Carl is paying attention and remembered the fire extinguisher, they catch it, no big deal, laugh about it at the tavern. Say three minutes goes by, and what was a spot fire is now too much for the personnel at hand. By the time they call it in, we show up twenty minutes later and the fire is 100 acres.

Point is, even if it was called in right at the point the personnel knew it was out of their control, the fire had bit before the first hose was laid.

At this point, we need to visit SteveS link from yesterday or grab a copy Macaulay's Cathedral to understand the structure.

The pitch is such that a fire could have started at any point along the truss and it would have self ventilated out the top. It had been burning for a while to self ventilate, especially a massive structure like this (not a trailer home's thin roof, for example). I have not seen any footage of the structure leading up to the self ventilate. But of course, the roof is made to keep rain out so it will keep smoke in.

The investigators are going to have to find out if there was enough available oxygen for the fire load to burn hot enough to find (breach a wall) enough oxygen. I don't have a blueprint in front of me, I don't know. Other questions would be, if indeed this was an attic fire, is what all was in storage, how long ago if at all fire retardant was applied and where, and does our construction company have in their SOPs an overwatch with a fire extinguisher ready at all times when performing fire-risk operations especially say using a grinder in a wooden attic full of oil soaked canvas.

And the work crew, I think they are going to rather have a series of amateur colonoscopies compared to this investigation. And the poor slobs who came up with the SOPs better lube up.

Remember, this is a science, and there may be variable which may or may not be solved but can be guessed. Take all this information, and find if the fire burned hot enough long enough before the oxygen was used up, to find enough oxygen to self sustain.

So even if you have a recording of Carl calling in the fire, "Merde, I set the room full of old Christmas trees on fire and need help now!" still going to check it out for accelerates.

I will make the prediction that the identities of the work crew will remain secret for their own protection I bet that has been made quite clear to everyone involved, and this will official be a work accident no matter what. Now, if there are leaks, or if shit start blowing up places and nobody knows who or why, well then....
Posted by swksvolFF 2019-04-16 16:52||   2019-04-16 16:52|| Front Page Top

#17 Thanks Kansas.
Posted by Skidmark 2019-04-16 18:07||   2019-04-16 18:07|| Front Page Top

#18 Two world wars and no problem, no fire in hundreds of years. Suddenly a work crew shows up and everything goes to kak. You have to wonder.
Posted by Besoeker 2019-04-16 18:29||   2019-04-16 18:29|| Front Page Top

#19 Best I can do with 48 hour information and not-a-professional. For instance, there is a somewhat different account of a smoke/heat detector tripping and being investigated. What I find interesting about this, is when I'm cooking steak and peppers in the kitchen and the smoke detector goes off, its pretty obvious that the kitchen is smokey. Heat detector, I would hope the inspectors had thermal cameras because that is what we use and they are fantastic and affordable nowadays, where you can zoom in and where the little plus is, is the displayed temperature. Long gone are the days of having the non-smoking firefighters walk the building touching walls for heat and sniffing the air.

That there were heat/smoke detectors seems consistent and connected to a system. What information they keep track of can be used to help recreate the spread of the fire. Important if the first time anyone knows something is wrong is when the flames breach to roof or embers are falling on the attendees.

Even if Carl phoned it in right away, still good information if just to confirm the call.
Posted by swksvolFF 2019-04-16 18:38||   2019-04-16 18:38|| Front Page Top

#20 If you take a look at the structural elements of the interior (basically a bunch of timber), I think you'll conclude that this was a conflagration waiting to happen. The miracle is that it did not happen sooner. They should probably have retrofitted some fire prevention measures, including perhaps halon and sprinkler systems. Given the historical value, anything more than fire alarms would have been controversial. After this fire, I expect resistance to such measures for other similarly antique and fire-prone structures to be much more muted.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2019-04-16 19:18||   2019-04-16 19:18|| Front Page Top

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19:56 jpal
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18:14 JohnQC
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