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2008-08-16 Home Front: Politix

McCain's Focus on Georgia Raises Question of Propriety

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Posted by Fred 2008-08-16 01:01|| || Front Page|| [9 views ] Top

#1 McCain will treat his myopia, and get it right. The Georgia nationalists are lame ducks. And their leader is despised for his folly.

Denying the Holocaust is bad. Is denial of a perverted scheme to turn NATO into an instrument of ethnic cleansing, good? Is it true that Georgian nationalists have operated on a "Georgia for the Georgians" slogan since 1991?

Would you fight to the death for America? Georgian troops abandoned military vehicles, weapons, regiment flags and uniforms. Maybe they didn't like defending ethnic cleansing in the name of Soros' "Freedom." You can read all about George Soros' operation of the "Open Society Institute of Georgia" (founded 1994) on his website, and elsewhere. Senator, don't be a pigeon to con-men.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-16 01:22|| 2008-08-16 01:22|| Front Page Top

#2 Denying the Holocaust is bad. Is denial of a perverted scheme to turn NATO into an instrument of ethnic cleansing, good?

Wow, that's a nicely passive aggressive way of accusing McCain (and by extension, anyone else who disagrees with rolling over for the neo-Soviets) Nazis.

Hopefully you _do_ realize that the Soviets had a fifty year or so history of the same rhetorical trick?

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-16 01:40|| 2008-08-16 01:40|| Front Page Top

#3 McZoid? From deep down inside of your heart, do you really, really believe what you just wrote to be true?

Proof please of:
1) Denial of a perverted scheme to turn NATO into an instrument of ethnic cleansing
Please site at each one source of the perverted scheme

2) "Georgia for the Georgians" slogan since 1991
Sounds good to me, "America for the Americans." How is this different from "of the people, by the people, for the people?"

3) Georgian troops abandoned military vehicles, weapons, regiment flags and uniforms
Pictures might really help here

4) The name of Soros' "Freedom."
Got me there. Soros and freedom as words together? As in joining together to make a thought? Well, I guess "gave $20,000 in September 2002 to the Lynne Stewart Defense Committee" is preaching freedom for all, including convicted terrorists.

I'm here to learn... you put forth four statements I didn't know. And in my quest for knowledge of current events, please help me with sources of your info so I can learn.

But then, I prolly just lost 10 minutes of time that I will never recover by asking you for sources.

Posted by Sherry">Sherry 2008-08-16 02:02|| 2008-08-16 02:02|| Front Page Top

#4 Sherry:

Google "Gamsakhurda" and you will see that Georgian nationalists are ethnic cleansers. And they insist on maintaining a statue of Stalin in front of Gromi City Hall.

In a FOX TV interview on Friday, Senator McCain clearly focused on the need to build good relations with Russia. And that came after a week of verbal barbs. That Realpolitick is the result of the nationalist humiliation. Georgians are first to attack Saakashvili; he is a lame duck leader. His appearance with Condi Rice - who looked disdainfully at the man who imposed the embarassing public statement spectacle - reveals extreme exasperation. Yah, he tried to turn NATO into an instrument for ethnic cleansing. Apparently Westerners are looking away when video is played of the indiscriminate bombing of Ossetian cities and villages. This isn't 1956.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-16 05:30|| 2008-08-16 05:30|| Front Page Top

#5 Google Boor.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-16 08:55|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-16 08:55|| Front Page Top

#6 Maybe they didn't like defending ethnic cleansing in the name of Soros' "Freedom."

Sadly, this seems to be the talking point to excuse the Russians. I have seen this ridiculous canard put forth three times now, so I guess that's their story and they are sticking to it. Usually, the posters claim the Russians were "provoked" to invade.

You can always tell the apologists, they are unable to refer to Georgia as a country or nation or Republic, instead they refer to it as a "The Breakaway Republic".

What a bizzaro world we have entered where people actually will bite on some sort of nefarious connection between Soros and McCain to excuse a Russian invasion of another country.

It's a sad day.

Posted by Betty Grating2215 2008-08-16 08:58|| 2008-08-16 08:58|| Front Page Top

#7 Zviad Gamsakhurdia termed himself "the Saddam Hussein of the Caucasus." He was a nutbag and he thankfully came to a satisfyingly bad end. Jabba Ioselani was a nutbag, too. The Mkhedrioni were thugs. Big surprise. Shevardnadze looked like a good idea at the time, turned into the Guest Who Wouldn't Leave. Whoopdy doo.

The idea behind the Rose Revolution was to get away from all that sort of drama and institutionalized oppression and institute a modern government. Saakashvili's been trying to do that, despite his and Georgia's limitations.

Soviet apologetics used to make me gag. Post-Soviet apologetics make me want to puke.

Georgia's been raped in the same manner all of Eastern Europe was raped. Deal with it.

Posted by Fred 2008-08-16 09:33|| 2008-08-16 09:33|| Front Page Top

#8 Ethnic cleansing does not equal genocide. Forcing a population to move is not necessarily a bad thing and may be required in many cases in order to have a true long lasting peace. Some folks just don't get along and when you get divorced it is common for one party to move out of the house. Instead the Russians started moving family and friends in.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-16 10:26|| 2008-08-16 10:26|| Front Page Top

#9 Just ask the Cherokee.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-08-16 10:38|| 2008-08-16 10:38|| Front Page Top

#10 Or the Paleostains.

Ossetia was a breakaway province. I know of no law anywhere that prevents you from retaking breakaway states. Imagine New Mexico succeeding from the union and Mexico sitting right there with a couple hundred tanks and APCs grinning and laughing at us. That's what Georgia has been dealing with for the last 10 years. Now imagine Mexico sending that army into New Mexico as "peacekeepers" staged just inside the border of New Mexico, ready to attack any minute. It's the exact same situation and it could just as easily happen here.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-16 10:56|| 2008-08-16 10:56|| Front Page Top

#11 We'll talk again on the day China invades Taiwan to retake a breakaway province

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 11:35|| 2008-08-16 11:35|| Front Page Top

#12 Or Vladivostok.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-16 12:17|| 2008-08-16 12:17|| Front Page Top

#13 Geez, McZoid - you could boil down your posts from the past six months to two separate phrases:

1. Kill muslims. They suck.

2. Yay, Russia!

Why don't you just use those as appropriate? Save Fred some bandwith.

Posted by Pappy 2008-08-16 13:02|| 2008-08-16 13:02|| Front Page Top

#14 I hope McZoid is as energetic in attempting to influence the government of Canada (where his server resides) to take the threat of Islamicism seriously as he is in asserting his opinions here.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 13:08|| 2008-08-16 13:08|| Front Page Top

#15 M: Is denial of a perverted scheme to turn NATO into an instrument of ethnic cleansing, good? Is it true that Georgian nationalists have operated on a "Georgia for the Georgians" slogan since 1991?

One key difference between the end of WWII and the end of the Cold War is that at the end of WWII, all Japanese and German colonists/immigrants in the Far East and Europe were forcibly relocated to Japan and Germany, whether or not they had been there prior to the beginning of the war, whereas post-Cold War Russians were not forcibly deported to Russia. The Georgian incident illustrates why formerly occupied countries are wise to expel the settlers sent by their former rulers in cases where the colonial culture is not only non-assimilationist - it is a revanchist one. The ruling Swedes assimilated into Finland - why can't Russians assimilate into their new countries?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-16 14:27|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-16 14:27|| Front Page Top

#16 The Ossetians are not ethnic Russians and they have been resident in the area way before Soviet times.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 14:35|| 2008-08-16 14:35|| Front Page Top

#17 Yep, Sherese Jones6358. They settled there due to graciousness of Georgians when Turks kicked their ass in their homeland--Don river area.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-16 15:24|| 2008-08-16 15:24|| Front Page Top

#18 And without the Russians the Georgians would be Muslims.

It's rather pointless to start debates like that as we'd probably end up with the Skythes.

When the Soviet Union broke up the Ossetians didn't want to belong to Georgia. Of course nobody asked them what they wanted.

Even now nobody does.

Fact is, Georgia broke an existing status quo by shelling a city in the middle of the night. Then Russia upped the ante.

I don't know how Saakashvili could think that he could attack a region under Russian control (right or wrong) and kill Russian troops.

What did he expect? A stern worded letter? NATO threatening WW3 or what?

Did he ask NATO before he attacked? No? Then he should stop whining now and be happy that the Russians didn't march on to Tbilisi to take him out.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 15:31|| 2008-08-16 15:31|| Front Page Top

#19 So, the string of Ossetian provocations (raids into Georgian proper, shootings, for months, prior to Georgian response) don't count, in your book?

Yes/no.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-16 16:19|| 2008-08-16 16:19|| Front Page Top

#20 I will gve props to Bush for sending Condie to Tiblisi. There is no way the russian will bomb that city while she is there.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2008-08-16 16:46|| 2008-08-16 16:46|| Front Page Top

#21 Of course they count, but the offenses seem to have been mutual ones. Georgians did raid Ossetian villages as well.

Nobody is innocent. But Georgia escalated the conflict in an unacceptable way. Shelling the major city while its inhabitants are sleeping and hoping the Russians would just protest was totally idiotic.

And while Russia isn't a democracy, Georgia is far from being one either. Saakashvili suppressed opposition manifestations, bullied independent media, rigged the presidential and parliamentary elections.

Georgia is run by mafia-like structures, rife with corruption. It's not your good young Western democracy.

Saakashvili is as much an autocrat as Putin, with less rational behavior.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 16:46|| 2008-08-16 16:46|| Front Page Top

#22 I agree that the Georgian rocket attack was, to put it mildly, stupid.

But that is where our agreement ends.

There was no need to go on rampage inside Georgia--destruction, killing sprees, lootings, etc.

If Russians simply pushed Georgians from S Ossetia proper and positioned themselves on the border, nobody would say a thing. But that is not what happened. I don't even mention the propaganda machine, set into high gear, spewing baldfaced lies as a form of a capital to buy "doing as they please".

But given the context--Russian threats to the counties on their perifery and beyond--beside the barbarity of Russian and proxies' actions within Georgia, that all post-empt any moral high ground that Russians could claim.

Period.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-16 17:22|| 2008-08-16 17:22|| Front Page Top

#23 This I believe of the period after Saint Saakashvilli resigned as Shevardnadze's Minister of Justice:

"A year after he was made justice minister he resigned, declaring that Mr Shevardnadze was complicit in the criminality bedevilling Georgia."

"In opposition he caught the eye of George Soros, the American billionaire and philanthropist who had initially become involved in Georgia at Mr Shevardnadze's request. Mr Soros also had become irritated by the 'Silver Fox's' (Shevardnadze) go slow approach, and he decided that Mr Saakashvilli was the embodiment of Georgia's future."

"The Soros foundations began pouring millions of dollars into organizations that were nominally interested in free media and democracy building but mainly served to undermine Mr Shevardnadze's rule and push for Mr Saashvilli to succeed him (including the youth movement, Kmara, which would provide the backbone of the protests during the Rose Revolution)."

(As voters began to distrust Saashvalli's increasingly personalist and autocratic style - an amalgam of the personality cult of his Georgian mentors, Stalin and Gamsakhurdia - he called an abrupt election in early 2008 and his United National Movement won a bare mandate with 53% popular support) "Radical reforms inevitably left many Georgians behind. Discontent grew as Mr Saakashvilli slashed the size of the civil service, and opposition demonstrations - including some organized by a group known simply as Anti-Soros - became a regular feature on Tbilisi's streets last year. In November the President ordered riot police to disperse the protests with tear gas, water cannons and batons."

Milton wrote: "Don't tell me what doesn't fit into my preconception manifold." Not really.

Hasn't Soros denounced the "Clash of Civilizations" notion, and doesn't he carp at every aspect of President Bush's GWOT?

Stereotypically:

Bush = Saakashvili

Soros = Saakashvili

Therefore Bush = Soros

Stop snarling and help explain this contradiction

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-16 19:56|| 2008-08-16 19:56|| Front Page Top

#24 Spike Uniter

We still don not know that well what really happened on both sides in the last days, how many people died, what was destroyed, what is looted.

We are relying way to much on propaganda from both sides. Russian propaganda is clumsier.

It's easy to say that the Russians should not have crossed into Georgia proper when Georgian logistics and reinforcement came from Gori. Thzat's just not realistic. Once you are in a war you do whazt you think has to be done to stop the enemy.

NATO even bombed bridges north of Belgrade in the Kosovo War of 1999.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:02|| 2008-08-16 20:02|| Front Page Top

#25 I think NATO should have bombed the tunnel leading to S. Ossetia.

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 20:11|| 2008-08-16 20:11|| Front Page Top

#26 Look, I don't have any love for Saakashvili and re Soros money bag--a good thing by irony, at least the money that he spent on Georgians were not available for some mischief. Soros may have had some agenda on mind, but that does not mean his investmnt worked out, sometimes you lose.

If I were Bush and knew Soros is spending money on "color revolutions" in small countries--if it is not contradicting the foreign policy, why would I stop him?

There is no nefarious connection, just your tendency to see them where they really aren't.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-16 20:14|| 2008-08-16 20:14|| Front Page Top

#27 And why should NATO have done such a foolish thing?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:15|| 2008-08-16 20:15|| Front Page Top

#28 NATO should have done it, to poke the Evil Bear in the eye.

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 20:18|| 2008-08-16 20:18|| Front Page Top

#29 and then the Evil Bear cries and goes away?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:20|| 2008-08-16 20:20|| Front Page Top

#30 No, the Evil Bear now knows we will back up those that stood the line with us, we will not let them destroy democracies that they feel should not exist, we will not let them hold a monopoly on euro gas ..and if it comes to all out war so be it...
should we wait for the Ukraine to fall ..
should we wait for Poland ... as they said .. to be nuked.?

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 20:29|| 2008-08-16 20:29|| Front Page Top

#31 If Russia installed a "Missile Defense System" in Cuba and Venezuela, would the U.S. point a few missiles at them just to make sure or not?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:53|| 2008-08-16 20:53|| Front Page Top

#32 Are you claiming the Mexicans are developing nuke tipped missiles for use against the infidel Bahamians and the Russians out of the kindness of their frozen hearts ride to the rescue?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:57|| 2008-08-16 20:57|| Front Page Top

#33 we already are 'pointing' missiles at them .. if not it could be arranged in minutes...
that's how the missiles work..

we should have taken out Cuba in '63..
{ i think it was 63}
Venezuela IMHO will destroy itself, even with their oil profits they have angry neighbors and citizens..

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 21:01|| 2008-08-16 21:01|| Front Page Top

#34 To be more serious, have you looked on a map where the Russian missile fields are located and how the hell an interceptor in Poland is going to destroy an ICBM aim at Omaha?

The real reason the Russians are going ape shit is because once the interceptors are operational, their ability to blackmail Europe with limited nuclear strikes is gone.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 21:02|| 2008-08-16 21:02|| Front Page Top

#35 That is a good thing, right?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 21:03|| 2008-08-16 21:03|| Front Page Top

#36 sigh

Sometimes I wonder. I usually don't chime in with the chorus here who say let Western Europe stew in its own decline. But the veto by Germany of even starting a process towards possible NATO membership by Georgia is pushing me in that direction.

I'm tired of sanctimonious, play-both-sides-of-the-street Euros, and Germany is at the top of the tables in that league right now in my reckoning.

The people who triggered the bloodshed in the former Yugoslavia in order to privilege the former Ustasi leaders in charge of the Croat breakaway insurgents have absolutely no moral standing to opine about Georgia.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:08|| 2008-08-16 21:08|| Front Page Top

#37 Europeans and Asians are watching Saint Saakashvilli's now infamous tie-eating video. They are also watching Fox's infamous suppression of a 12 year old American girl's reports of her experience under Georgian artillery fire. Then there is CNN's infamous cut-off of Condi's press conference, when a Russian reporter brought up moral equivalence.

Yah, Soros' Open Society really does yield open minds. Gotta preserve those preconceptions.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-16 21:08|| 2008-08-16 21:08|| Front Page Top

#38 ed

what's the point of Russia threatening Europe with "limited nuclear strikes"?

1) Taking out your major business partners
2) Living without Moscow and St. Peter vaporised by the Force de Frappe?

Russia has no point in threatening Europe. Businessmen rule Russia, not Communist apparatchiks

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:12|| 2008-08-16 21:12|| Front Page Top

#39 I'm suspecting McZoid doesn't like the Georgians.

They're not blond and blue eyed, for one thing.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:12|| 2008-08-16 21:12|| Front Page Top

#40 Germans? They - like most of NATO's moral arbitrage factory - refused to answer President Bush's invocation of Article 5 (North Atlantic Treaty) after Taliban/al-Qaeda executed mass murder on US soil.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-16 21:15|| 2008-08-16 21:15|| Front Page Top

#41 "The real reason the Russians are going ape shit is because once the interceptors are operational, their ability to blackmail Europe with limited nuclear strikes is gone."

Oh you mean it's NOT about Iranian missiles?

"Interceptors" btw are classical dual use weapons. Just depends on your intention.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:15|| 2008-08-16 21:15|| Front Page Top

#42 'To be more serious, have you looked on a map 'where the Russian missile fields are located and how the hell an interceptor in Poland is going to destroy an ICBM aim at Omaha?'

yes I know where they are suppose to be..
you know and I know that the polish defence won't stop a missile in BFE USA ..it was never suppose to..

they are upset it seems to me because current Russian doctrine says that any use of our advanced conventional weaponry .. laser guided sh## - night superiority -- stealth-- etc is governed by their use of tactical nukes...

if we use toys they don't have they'll play nuke em'

they don't need a limited strike option when they have a MADD option and a weak NATO

Posted by Zorba Glerong2815 2008-08-16 21:16|| 2008-08-16 21:16|| Front Page Top

#43 Businessmen rule Russia, not Communist apparatchiks

Naive, disingenous claim of the day.

Even Putin's buddy Schroeder had a rather Red Brigade-ish start to his political career as I recall. It's no coincidence that he is now a wealthy director of Gazprom. If you think the 'entrepreneurs' of today's Russia don't have direct links to the FSB you've blinded yourself to a pretty well documented reality.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:16|| 2008-08-16 21:16|| Front Page Top

#44 #40 That's nonsense

All members of NATO, according to chapter 5 of the treaty, responded simultaneously and without delay, standing up in solidarity with the US.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:18|| 2008-08-16 21:18|| Front Page Top

#45 And I am not so naive as to think that Schroeder's influence in Germany ended when he signed on with Russia for a part of the oil/gas take.

BTW - Mr. Lotp's family is German on his mother's side. My insights into German attitudes and politics come first-hand.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:19|| 2008-08-16 21:19|| Front Page Top

#46 Germany's reponse was more tepid than a tea bag in cold water.

Of course, that's in part because your armed forces are intentionally under equipped and trained and over manned -- but unionized.

Germany's charade of participation in Afghanistan is laughable but probably the best you all could manage. Pity.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:21|| 2008-08-16 21:21|| Front Page Top

#47 lotp

No contradiction there... The Soviet Union only died 18 years ago.

But many people believe that Russia is about the same as the Soviet Union. That's a mistake.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:21|| 2008-08-16 21:21|| Front Page Top

#48 Lotp, you're pretty naive if you think that would stop him if Finland were the target of attack.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-16 21:23|| 2008-08-16 21:23|| Front Page Top

#49 '#44 #40 That's nonsense

All members of NATO, according to chapter 5 of the treaty, responded simultaneously and without delay, standing up in solidarity with the US.'

Yes they come waving papers in the air and waving fingers...

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 21:24|| 2008-08-16 21:24|| Front Page Top

#50 Germany's army was designed to withhold a massive Soviet invasion for a couple of days, not to intervene in conflicts 5000 km away.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:25|| 2008-08-16 21:25|| Front Page Top

#51 Germany's current army couldn't stop a pack of teenage shoplifters.

I know several fine, professional German officers. They are in the minority. In the main your army is exactly what you want it to be -- ineffective but maintaining the pretense of holding up your responsibilities.

You are free-riders. You take but do not give. Some of us are tired of enabling that.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:28|| 2008-08-16 21:28|| Front Page Top

#52 Germany's army as far as I see it its not fit to protect it's own borders.

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 21:28|| 2008-08-16 21:28|| Front Page Top

#53 What's worse, Germany demands to be treated as a world leader but wants never to carry the burdens and risks of one.

pfeh

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:29|| 2008-08-16 21:29|| Front Page Top

#54 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1640829.stm

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:31|| 2008-08-16 21:31|| Front Page Top

#55 80% of the top Russian leaders are of KGB background. Further down the pecking order, all businesses and institutions have under employ current or former KGB fixer. They are the real power. The name may have changed, the ideology has not.

Oh you mean it's NOT about Iranian missiles?

Interceptors, by definition, intercept what is aimed at them. Polish interceptors are not a threat against Russian missiles aimed at the US. They are a threat to missiles, Iranian or Russian, aimed at Europe. The question is: Why is Russia threatening nuclear war against neighbors?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 21:32|| 2008-08-16 21:32|| Front Page Top

#56 All members of NATO, according to chapter 5 of the treaty, responded simultaneously and without delay, standing up in solidarity with the US

Chuckle.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 21:37|| 2008-08-16 21:37|| Front Page Top

#57 #54 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1640829.stm
Posted by: Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:31

from the fro mentioned article

Green concerns

However, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's coalition partners, the Greens, may have more difficulty in doing so.

The party has its roots in the peace movement, and many members retain a pacifist stance.

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer is a Green Party member, and supports the military campaign.

But one of the party's national leaders, Claudia Roth, has called for a halt to the bombing, to allow humanitarian supplies to be distributed.

Earlier this year, German plans to send troops to join the Nato-led force in Macedonia became bogged down in conflict, when the Christian Democrats and some Social Democrat backbenchers threatened to oppose the move.

A rebellion was averted only when extra concessions, including more cash for the armed forces, were promised. A number of other countries have also offered military support to the US, including Australia, Turkey and France.

Posted by Jeremiah Snolutle6808 2008-08-16 21:38|| 2008-08-16 21:38|| Front Page Top

#58 Oh, yes, SJ6538. Germany responded quite smartly.

Then it issued rules of engagement that ensured Germans would never get anywhere near the difficult or dangerous work in Afghanistan. In fact, US pilots have had to risk their own lives to bring Germans out whenever anything like danger approached.

Color me unimpressed. In fact, color me contemptuous.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:38|| 2008-08-16 21:38|| Front Page Top

#59 Any US assets in Europe are targeted by Russia as any Russian assets anywhere in the world will be targeted by the U.S.

Missile defense is dual use. A missile can be used to destroy an Iranian missile but nothing prevents it to be fitted with a nuclear warhead and destroy Moscow.

At least this is the Russian point.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:40|| 2008-08-16 21:40|| Front Page Top

#60 And my nail file might be used as a murder weapon in a shopping mall. It's quite sharp and strong and the carotid arteries are vulnerable.

Russia was invited to join the BMD project. They refused. Stop apologizing for their aggression and violent rape of Georgian territory (proper).

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:42|| 2008-08-16 21:42|| Front Page Top

#61 Different guidance systems for one.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 21:42|| 2008-08-16 21:42|| Front Page Top

#62 German troops have died in Afghanistan. Feel free to contempt them.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:42|| 2008-08-16 21:42|| Front Page Top

#63 It might be a miss understanding on my part but the missiles in Poland cant reach Moskova can they..

Posted by Rupert Pheatch8373 2008-08-16 21:45|| 2008-08-16 21:45|| Front Page Top

#64 If not they'd be quite useless unless Iran chooses a (rather pointless) path of its missiles via North-East Poland.

OK if they really want to nuke Copenhagen.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:49|| 2008-08-16 21:49|| Front Page Top

#65 Georgian troops have died in Iraq. Feel free to contempt them.

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 21:49|| 2008-08-16 21:49|| Front Page Top

#66 Yes, German troops have died in Afghanistan. But that was despite your government's best attempts to avoid having them anywhere near actual fighting.

I honor them. I do not honor what has become an all too convenient habit of Germany with regard to international obligations.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:50|| 2008-08-16 21:50|| Front Page Top

#67 Why should I?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 21:51|| 2008-08-16 21:51|| Front Page Top

#68 Herr Linker: Thank you and your country for your sacrifice and support of the the Global War on Terror.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-16 21:56|| 2008-08-16 21:56|| Front Page Top

#69 It might be a miss understanding on my part but the missiles in Poland cant reach Moskova can they.

GMD missiles are quite large, about IRBM size. They are designed to get out of the atmosphere very fast under radar guidance and release an antimissile kill vehicle.

While a missile that large could easily reach Moscow, it has neither the payload or flight profile for a nuclear warhead delivery vehicle. It would be much better to use something like the smaller Pershing II, a missile that really did scare the Soviets.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 22:12|| 2008-08-16 22:12|| Front Page Top

#70
Besoeker,
Danke

Posted by linker 2008-08-16 22:14|| 2008-08-16 22:14|| Front Page Top

#71 Looking at German Afghanistan casualty reports I see 3 WIA from a firefight. The rest from suicide or IED ambushes. Of course, KSK casualties, while listed, may not list the true cause. How's that for conspiratorial fodder?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 22:19|| 2008-08-16 22:19|| Front Page Top

#72 McCain has a temper and a short fuse. He needs to be on the front lines on a Sherman tank, not the Oval Office.

As a republican colleague said in 2000, "Keep this guy as far away from the trigger as possible."

Posted by Barak YoMama 2008-08-16 22:27|| 2008-08-16 22:27|| Front Page Top

#73 1. Re McCain - Obama is taking the same general position, if expressing it differently. When I decide whom to vote for I will consider Iraq, Iran, domestic policies, even Israel - Georgia will not be a differentiator

2. Re S Ossetian genocide - if the Russians care about genocide, why have they helped block attempts to take action on Darfur?

3. Re who started it - my impression is that in the weeks leeding up to the Georgian attack, it was largely Ossetian provocations that were happening not Georgian ones. Im sure there are those who contest that, just as Saak claims that he didnt launch his attack till the Russians were on the march

4. WRT Germany - at this point Im looking less for German troops, than for Germany to support the eastern members of NATO verbally very loudly, and to show they will take whatever economic retaliation Putin has in mind. That would go far to changing mindsets.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-16 22:48|| 2008-08-16 22:48|| Front Page Top

#74 McCain has a temper and a short fuse. He needs to be on the front lines on a Sherman tank, not the Oval Office.

As a republican colleague said in 2000, "Keep this guy as far away from the trigger as possible."

I dunno, I figure we might get the most deterrent value for our buck with a crazy "Keep that guy away from me!" president.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-16 23:40|| 2008-08-16 23:40|| Front Page Top

23:40 Abdominal Snowman
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