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2007-12-19 -Lurid Crime Tales-

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Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-19 00:59|| || Front Page|| [7 views ] Top

#1 Were such a raid to be conducted at my house under the wrong circumstances there would be fatalities - I'd likely kill an officer, maybe 2, with my pistol, and they would likely kill me.

The police are just the latest symptom in the Government crushing individual citizens instead of serving them.

Time to stop the war on drugs.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-19 01:08|| 2007-12-19 01:08|| Front Page Top

#2 The Hmong are hill people from Laos who aided the CIA during the Vietnam War by fighting the Viet Cong. Hmong refugees began arriving in Minnesota in the late 1970s, and there are perhaps 60,000 Hmong in Minnesota today.

The Khang family is living with relatives until the house gets cleaned up. The raid left six windows broken and walls and ceilings pocked with pellet and bullet holes.

"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-19 01:10|| 2007-12-19 01:10|| Front Page Top

#3 The ethnic Hmong are a tribal minority (think of them as SE Asian Indians) and were dediated US Allies, staunch anti-communists and expert jungle fighters. After being persecuted by the Vietnamese for centuries, they viewed ALL Vietnamese as "the enemy." The Hmong were, and continue to be highly reverred and respected by US Army Special Forces veterans of that day.

Posted by Besoeker 2007-12-19 01:25|| 2007-12-19 01:25|| Front Page Top

#4 Daily Pundit is using the term swatzis. I think I like it.

Posted by Seafarious 2007-12-19 01:27|| 2007-12-19 01:27|| Front Page Top

#5 I used to live about 10 or so miles from the kind of place you go to be Hmong friends, yuck yuck. Hmongs are indeed clannish, but finer examples of Americans you would be hard pressed to find. Even with all the hand outs Minnesota does their level best to flood minorities with, their Hmongs are still hard working people. No matter how lazy and worthless we try to make them, the just won't submit.

Yeah, they have gangs, but no more than any other minorities in the inner city. And the Hmong gang members seem to do a better job of waking up before they're in prison or dead.

Oh, and I'm with OS, raids based on a confidential informant and confirmed by no other source should be outlawed.

My biggest bitch about the confidential informant in cases like this is that they are insulated from the victims right to face their accuser. The police end up being a proxy and take the informants heat as well as their own.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-12-19 01:54|| 2007-12-19 01:54|| Front Page Top

#6 Yeah, I think higher standards would probably solve the problems of unnecessary deaths. Also, they always seem to go in and end up with their boots on the parents necks in front of the kids. That's how terrorists are born. Isn't there a better way?

Posted by gorb 2007-12-19 02:38|| 2007-12-19 02:38|| Front Page Top

#7 There needs to be a very public apology, in person, to this family. Along with a hefty check for damages, physical and emotional, that comes right out of the Minneapolis tax coffers.

Along with an ad campaign suggesting bluntly that it's time the local voters clean up their police force's act.

And yeah - if this were our house someone would be dead too. Enough of this swatzi crap.

Posted by lotp 2007-12-19 08:36|| 2007-12-19 08:36|| Front Page Top

#8 gotta stop this bs, when people live in fear of the gov in this country, its the government that is broke. clean out the garbage in government.

Posted by Spiny Gl 2511 2007-12-19 09:03|| 2007-12-19 09:03|| Front Page Top

#9 Same here. I've got a few buddies that are cops. They don't like this anymore than we do. Like many on here I own several firearms for hunting & home def. If this event occurred at my residence it's highly probable that I would be dead & so would one or two policemen.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-12-19 09:14|| 2007-12-19 09:14|| Front Page Top

#10 The war on drugs has failed and only managed to create para-military forces in SWAT. SWAT teams used to be fairly rare and only came in for hostage situations or when storming the building would cause too many police casualties. Now, every police team in the US has SWAT and they are used for pretty much everything. While gangs have always wanted deadlier hardware, I feel this has accelerated the process as they are in an arms war with the police more than each other.
Securing the borders with real fencing and shipping inspections would go a long way in culling a huge majority of the drugs coming into this country. While it wouldn't solve the problem (nothing will IMHO), it would at least crack the back of the cartels and gangs as it would rob them of most of their financial support.
If the cops do insist on doing no-knock raids with "secret" informants, then they need to be held to the same standard and liability as everyone else. They can be charged with crimes and the department can get their pants sued off. I would agree there are rare times that it is necessary, but for 90% of the time it isn't worth the risk.
The war on drugs has robbed us of a lot of our liberties and we have let the government do it because of the perceived protection and safety. That perception is now being stripped away and is being seen for what it is. Para-military units entering any house at will and acting like they are above the law.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-19 09:20|| 2007-12-19 09:20|| Front Page Top

#11 "fired a warning shot through his doorway as he heard footsteps coming up the stairs. He let loose with two more blasts. Twenty-two bullets were fired back at him"
Sounds like EVERYBODY needs a trip to the shooting range.

Posted by Darrell 2007-12-19 10:36|| 2007-12-19 10:36|| Front Page Top

#12 One simple solution: disband local SWAT teams. If the local police have a situation that truly requires a SWAT team (e.g., hostage situation), they call the state police, and the state brings in its team. By making SWAT teams less numerous they'd be used more sparingly.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-12-19 10:37|| 2007-12-19 10:37|| Front Page Top

#13 Yeah, man! We should disband ALL police forces! The police are nothing but jackbooted thugs! Anarchy baby! Yeah! If the police make a single mistake then they should be totally dismantled! Yeah man. Pass the bong.

Ugh. I think my IQ just dropped a few points from the kneejerking. Is this fark? Did I take a wrong turn on the information superhighway

Posted by ... 2007-12-19 10:44|| 2007-12-19 10:44|| Front Page Top

#14 No. You obviously are reading more into the comments than is there. Scaling back SWAT and uncalled for no-knock raids is the only thing here, and holding police accountable for stupidity.

If you still see otherwise, please go drink bleach and die. Thank you.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-19 10:50|| 2007-12-19 10:50|| Front Page Top

#15 A kinder, gentler version of Darth's message to 3-dot:

SWAT teams were originally formed to handle situations that ordinary police officers weren't trained to do, such as the rescue of hostages. The War on Drugs gave SWAT teams a new mission: bust down doors and apprehend drug dealers. The SWAT teams got the job because drug dealers, being who they are, had the disturbing propensity to shoot back at ordinary police officers who knocked on the door.

Problem is, the SWAT teams don't always get the right information, so they end up breaking down doors of innocent people in their homes. And that, given the right all of us have to own firearms and protect our homes, leads to tragedy.

So a solution is to restrict the use of SWAT teams: yes, some drug dealers may get away, but fewer innocents will be put at risk. That's a principle our legal system already endorses, since we have a judicial system that provides that better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man goes to prison.

Now, if you don't understand that, go drink bleach and die.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-12-19 10:56|| 2007-12-19 10:56|| Front Page Top

#16 "Drink bleach and die" has now been added to the list of things I am going to be saying a lot in the new year.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-12-19 11:45|| 2007-12-19 11:45|| Front Page Top

#17 SWAT teams were originally formed to handle situations that ordinary police officers weren't trained to do, such as the rescue of hostages.

Someone, on some blog, once pointed out that since there aren't a lot of hostage-takings, or snipers in bell towers, SWAT teams get highly trained and then don't really have much to do. So they give them jobs that maybe really don't call for a SWAT team, just to keep them sharp.

You guys have heard of Cory Maye, right? He was convicted and sentenced to death for killing a cop in just this sort of circumstance. The death penalty was overturned last year, but he's still locked up.

Oh, and the drug dealer in the other half of the duplex, the one who was such a big badass that they had to bust in on him in the middle of the night? Never charged with anything.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2007-12-19 11:58|| 2007-12-19 11:58|| Front Page Top

#18 If an informant gives the wrong info and someone gets killed the informant should be up on charges. Perhaps second degree, perhaps first.

Fact is the SWAT team should be doing a bit of due-dilligence anyway. Check the house, check the records, you could tell a lot about an address before busting in guns blazing. For their own safety they should be doing this. This is pathetic.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-12-19 12:25|| 2007-12-19 12:25|| Front Page Top

#19 I trust the pain-in-the-ass ACLU will weigh in on this and make life miserable for the jerks in control. The one thing I fear is police, normal average police taking orders from some egomaniacal politician, or worse yet, a prosecuutor with ambition, like Elliot Spitzer.

Posted by wxjames 2007-12-19 13:48|| 2007-12-19 13:48|| Front Page Top

#20 I blame the tv show SWAT which enouraged every little burg to get their own SWAT teams with a big black UPS van and cool theme song to handle crisis.

Too bad the movie version sucked.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-12-19 14:21|| 2007-12-19 14:21|| Front Page Top

#21 Ah, 'drink bleach and die'. That confirms it, I am on fark. Next time some nut job goes on a shooting rampage in a mall or University, I'll think about all you slack-jawed mouth breathers calling for the end of SWAT teams. For that matter we should dispose of the National Guard, after all some of them shot at some innocent people in New Orleans. Why stop there, I am sure there have been some unfortunate, innocent people caught up in the FBI terrorist sweeps, let's get rid of them too. And while we're at it, I guarantee some poor Iraqi's have been wrongfully imprisoned by our good for nothing, jackbooted soldiers, get rid of the Army, by God. That'll learn 'em. I've found myself either on fark or the dailykos. Yikes. Good call.

Posted by ... 2007-12-19 15:47|| 2007-12-19 15:47|| Front Page Top

#22 Why don't we get rid of all humans since they are just a blight on the earth anyway, Mr. GeeIlovedailyKos. And personally, I ain't gonna wait for SWAT when some idiot goes on a shooting rampage near me. I'll just shoot the fucker.

Apparently you still don't get what we are arguing for. Not the abolishment of everything, but the reining in of some their power and use.

So, listen to what we are saying instead of spouting your liberal bullshit, or drink bleach and die. Please. Your god Gaia will thank you for it.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-19 16:02|| 2007-12-19 16:02|| Front Page Top

#23 Next time some nut job goes on a shooting rampage in a mall or University,

Where was the SWAT team at the Texas Tower?
A Ranger did the deed.

Where was the SWAT team at Columbine? It was getting ready to get started to get tactical. Cops are cops, army is army.

Come to think of it... what it the great SWAT team fight? Seriously is there one to point out?

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-12-19 16:58|| 2007-12-19 16:58|| Front Page Top

#24 First, if I was on this SWAT mission I would be pissed that I was sent into an unknown situation on bad information - it is my life on the line and I would expect more from the chain of command.

Second, I and many others would be rightfully so be defending home and family and if my door was kicked down without warning I would be ready to defend, in my ready position.

Why, after the warning shot, did the SWAT group not proclaim themselves as the Police? Everyone involved is lucky the only patching to be done is to the drywall and ,judging only by this transcript, the Police screwed up top to bottom.

There is a need for SWAT IMO - tripple duht, innocents get killed in gang fights perhaps you would like to go and disband them while we are at it. When the 'Special' turns into 'Totalitarian' there are problems (did they really need to send in SWAT for Elion Gonzales?). Stake the place out for a day forgawdsakes, maybe catch the perp without having to storm a castle (or in this case find out that maybe the intel is wrong). Looking sexy and keeping sharp are not good enough reasons to carry out an operation while skipping good basic police work.

Posted by swksvolFF 2007-12-19 17:28|| 2007-12-19 17:28|| Front Page Top

#25 Where was the SWAT team at the Texas Tower?

Non-existent. It was that incident (among others) which prompted the calls for what became SWAT teams.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2007-12-19 21:06|| 2007-12-19 21:06|| Front Page Top

#26 Let's also remember 92-year-old Kathryn Johnson, shot to death by an Atlanta SWAT team during a similar no-knock raid in 2006. The police then lied to claim excuses for themselves. Two of those policemen have pled guilty to manslaughter.

Posted by Eric Jablow">Eric Jablow 2007-12-19 21:40|| 2007-12-19 21:40|| Front Page Top

#27 My take:

Seems to me that if you have a SWAT team, you have to justify its existance. I don't mind training up a team to take care of tactical stuff even if it isn't used. Management needs to understand my point of view and maybe they would feel more comfortable not using them. Of course, the voters would need to understand this too for this to work.

And why can't a SWAT team be trained to deal with a situation at several levels, all the way from police up through two or three levels to almost military? Just because I have an automatic assault rifle doesn't mean I have to use it in full auto all the time. Sometimes single shot, sometimes burst, sometimes let-'em-have-it.

Perhaps this need to prove the SWAT team's value is what clouded management's judgment.

And ..., you are intentionally misreading intentions so you have something to base your accusations on. It probably makes you feel better about yourself or superior or something. Quit it or your points will go unheard in this part of the world, and this part of the world's points will be wasted on you. If you go head to head with some of these guys they'll eat you alive. You'd be shocked if you knew who hangs out here.

Nobody wants to disband all the police units. The intent is play with ideas that would reduce occurances like this, and what effects those ideas would have. The intent is to figure out how this $hit is happening. Also, there are a lot of folks here who understand each other better than you understand them, so just hide and watch for a while and you'll see the forces balance each other fairly well. Usually.

Or if you want to chime in then just say "I'm a newby" and they'll communicate in a way that normal folks will understand them and see the logic isn't half bad after all. When taken in context.

Posted by gorb 2007-12-19 21:49|| 2007-12-19 21:49|| Front Page Top

#28 Individual liberties are being destroyed by a government that has become too big.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-12-19 22:12|| 2007-12-19 22:12|| Front Page Top

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