Article

2007-06-27 Home Front: Politix

Immigration foes succeed in delaying amendments consideration

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-27 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11138 views ] Top

#1 Roaring off to oblivion...

Posted by crazyhorse 2007-06-27 00:40|| 2007-06-27 00:40|| Front Page Top

#2 On the other side, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., said opponents of amnesty for illegal immigrants are being told they must vote for the bill anyway "because that's the only way we're going to create a legal system of immigration in America."

There is a perfectly legal and save (and supported by most americans) process for immigrating to the United States.

That is if you don't mind George Bush, Kennedy, and Congress pissing in your face every few years to let lawbrakers cut in line ahead of you....

Posted by CrazyFool 2007-06-27 00:46|| 2007-06-27 00:46|| Front Page Top

#3 I would suggest to HorseAss Harry that he better concentrate on 2008 funding legislation, due to the fact that he & his cronies are going out for a week for July 4, then they'll be gone for the August break, 5 weeks, returning after Labor Day. The fiscal year begins anew on Oct.1 and these stooges will have nothing ready for discussion by this time, having frittered their time away on another Bush Folly.

Posted by Woozle Elmeter2970 2007-06-27 00:57|| 2007-06-27 00:57|| Front Page Top

#4 Just build the fricking fence and worry about the rest of the issues after the fence is built.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 00:59|| 2007-06-27 00:59|| Front Page Top

#5
From The Hill
House GOP rebukes Senate bill
By Jackie Kucinich
June 27, 2007
House Republicans yesterday unveiled a resolution expressing their disapproval of the Senate immigration bill. It was offered by Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), and simply read: resolved the House GOP Conference disapproves of the Senate immigration bill.

The move puts the House Republican Conference at odds with President Bush, who has endorsed the Senate bill. Hoekstra said that while he preferred not to break with the president, the language and content of the Senate bill compelled him to vocalize his opposition.
It is the second time this year that members of the House Republican Conference have publicly vocalized opposition to Bush policy. The first came last month when Reps. Ray LaHood (Ill.) and Mark Kirk (Ill.) attracted the ire of White House officials for allegedly speaking to reporters about a meeting on the Iraq war between Bush and centrist Republicans.

Hoekstra said he had not spoken to Bush, but had been in contact with White House staff. The resolution went back to the floor for debate yesterday afternoon and a vote was expected after press time.

The staff indicated that this would not be helpful, Hoekstra said.

I broke with the president on No Child Left Behind I dont like doing it, he said. This isnt the first time and it wont be the last.

The Senate bill is a bad piece of public policy you cant overestimate the amount of frustration there is [with the bill] in the conference, Hoekstra added.

His resolution passed the House Republican Conference by a large margin, despite the fact the Senate bills language has yet to be finalized.

A spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) said he has very serious concerns about the Senate bill.

During the discussion of the measure yesterday morning, LaHood attempted to block the Hoekstra resolution but was defeated soundly by a vote of about 114-23, according to sources familiar with the meeting.

According to a source, the failure of the LaHood motion prompted Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), a supporter of the Senate bill, to say that the Hoekstra resolution demeans the House.

Yet Flake is in the minority in his conference in his support for the measure; 100 Republicans have already joined the House Immigration Reform Caucus, a fervent anti-amnesty group.

Theres growing momentum on the House side to have our voices registered on the Senate immigration bill, Hoekstra said during a press conference yesterday.

Hoekstra said the amnesty provision, no matter how strict the language, was a deal-breaker for most House Republicans.

Thats why the fundamental bill has no credibility, and basically what we are saying today is it is dead on arrival in the
House, we cant have secret deals, this has to go through committee, it has to go in pieces, echoed Rep. Mark Souder (R-Ind.). A comprehensive bill will not pass the House.

The Z visa is unenforceable, Rep. John Campbell (R-Calif) said, referring to a provision of the Senate bill that would put those in the country illegally on the path to citizenship.

During a press conference yesterday, Bush did little to help his cause when he told reporters that the bill included amnesty. White House spokesman Tony Snow issued a press release shortly thereafter stating that the president had misspoken.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 01:07|| 2007-06-27 01:07|| Front Page Top

#6 Or this from TOM RIDGE!

First DHS secretary urges passage of immigration bill

Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge said Friday that Congress needs to deal with the problem of immigration now and not put off the issue any longer.

The reality is, its not going to go away, said Ridge, who expressed optimism that a bipartisan solution can still be found. Doing nothing would just perpetuate the existing problems, Ridge said at a National Press Club event.

Ridge, the former Republican governor of Pennsylvania, is now a consultant for the Discover America Partnership, a coalition of travel industry groups that is pressing Congress to approve legislation improving U.S. entry and visa policies to increase foreign travel to the U.S.

Some of the groups proposals may be incorporated into a Senate immigration bill that is expected to be back on the Senate floor as early as next week following a deal between Senate Democrats and Republicans announced last night.

Ridge offered public support for many of the groups proposals during his presentation, including a $10 visa waiver transaction fee that would be paid by foreign travelers. Proceeds from the fee would be used to fund security improvements to Americas visa and entry system and to fund a sustained national coordinated campaign to promote travel to the U.S. in foreign markets.

Ridge also said his personal opinion is that the visa waiver program should be expanded to include more countries.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 02:04|| 2007-06-27 02:04|| Front Page Top

#7 Ridge also said his personal opinion is that the visa waiver program should be expanded to include more countries.

Lobbyist Ridge needs a particularly sensitive part of his anatomy "expanded".

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-27 06:32|| 2007-06-27 06:32|| Front Page Top

#8 WARNING: read entire post before getting steamed.

A lot of these politicians have realized the truth about American prosperity. The fact is, a society where unskilled and semiskilled labor has the lifestyle and standard of living that we have seen in the last sixty years is without historical context and unsustainable. The only reason it could exist in the brief post-WWII period is that we had the only educated and trained workforce, with an intact infrastructure and physical plant, left on the planet. The reality seeped into the political class twenty or so years ago; the bulk of Americans are going to have to take a lifestyle hit, in order to still have jobs. Additionally, the type of government and union mandated job security that Americans have come to take for granted needs to go away, or we will become as stagnant as Euroland.

This expectation of high level of compensation, combined with pursuit of perfect income security that often reaches the level of theater of the absurd (fear of fear itself) is having disastrous effects on Western society economically as well as socially. And on a purely economic level, our sense of entitlement to a certain material lifestyle leaves us extremely vulnerable to emerging entrepreneurial states like India and China.

In short, the American (and European, as well) workforce needs to be exposed to competition for its services in order to restore sanity to the pay scale of workers worldwide, and to apply incentive for return of valuing things nonmaterial in day to day life to the West. This is occuring with things like offshoring, etc., but not fast enough. So the political class, in response to the business community's legitimate desire to have a labor pay scale and flexibility in labor markets that are reasonable from an historical perspective, has decided on the solution of illegal immigration.

The problem in all this is the level of cowardice that politicians have. Promoting illegal immigration is the wrong way to deal with this issue.

What should have happened was an honest approach to the problem and innovative solutions to mitigating the necessary changes in the domestic labor market. Rather than doing the right thing and having the intestinal fortitude to come out and tell the public (yes, I know, it would be the end of their career in politics, but don't most of them have enough money to live, already?) what needs to occur, they've happened upon a solution (turning a blind eye to illegal immigration) that until now they have believed was a stealth approach to dealing with the problem that would leave their careers intact - and that this illegal immigration that would slowly but inevitably ripple through the job market, effecting the necessary correction in pay scale and expectation of income security.

That is no longer the case. The American public has seen this political laziness and dishonesty for what it is. And the other downside of this solution is the trillions it will cost for social services (federal, state, and local), Medicare, and Social Security that might not be needed if an innovative solution to globalization of world labor markets could be achieved.

Sorry to be long winded - but that's my two cents.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 07:01|| 2007-06-27 07:01|| Front Page Top

#9 The Bush/Kennedy or Big Labor/US Chamber of Commerce "Strange Bedfellows" scenarios should be tip-offs that this sham legislation is a complete boondoggle. But consider this; Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-VT), the self admitted Socialist, has better sense on this issue then does the Republican President.

Posted by DepotGuy 2007-06-27 07:31|| 2007-06-27 07:31|| Front Page Top

#10 nmu,

I agree in principle with what you say BUT there is a much bigger problem that you are missing.

The major reason for the disparity in labor costs is that in too many countries the lower class is seen as a consumable commodity. The consumer class is too.

The pure greed factor makes it possible to buy tainted glycerin from China or slave labor from Chinese Military factories or sweat shops almost anywhere.

What you are asking for is for Americans to do away with all the non-wage costs pertaining to health and safety that are imposed on our economy, as well as lowering wages.

That is the true issue with globalization. Do you really want cheap produce from Mexico if the risk of contracting disease doubles or triples?

There is a lot more to material well being than just the wage rate in the 21st century.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-06-27 08:05|| 2007-06-27 08:05|| Front Page Top

#11 We need term limits, or something to get the political elite class, like Kennedy out of there.

Otherwise there will be blood spilling.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-06-27 08:06|| 2007-06-27 08:06|| Front Page Top

#12 nmu - that is the total and complete destruction of America and the American Dream for the God of Free Trade.

You left out the highly skilled like myself thrown away for H1B visa holding slaves and reams of 2 year wonder tech school grads hire in Chungking for $300 per year. (a lot of good that scheme did fricking Lucent.)

Lets replace all the Senators and Representatives with 3rd world slaves and see how the fuckers like it.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 09:42|| 2007-06-27 09:42|| Front Page Top

#13 Oh, and do wander out to http://www.opensecrets.org/ to see who owns your Congress-critter or Senator.
Isn't it amazing how their ethics make whores look like saints?

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 09:45|| 2007-06-27 09:45|| Front Page Top

#14 STFU, Teddy. Have another drink.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2007-06-27 10:47|| 2007-06-27 10:47|| Front Page Top

#15 We need term limits, or something to get the political elite class, like Kennedy out of there.

~~Otherwise~~ There will be blood spilling.

Fixed it.

Posted by Natural Law 2007-06-27 11:03|| 2007-06-27 11:03|| Front Page Top

#16 Darth, ABSOLUTELY right. And sign me up for part two.

Posted by jds 2007-06-27 13:02|| 2007-06-27 13:02|| Front Page Top

#17 Alan C:

"The major reason for the disparity in labor costs is that in too many countries the lower class is seen as a consumable commodity."

Wrong. While it is the case that there are some countries which do this, for the most part workers in the rest of the world simply couldn't provide the same value as Western workers. That is changing, and as the supply of laborers to perform any given task goes up, the cost per unit MUST come down. Economics 101.

"The consumer class is too. "

Oh, boy. The one thing which ignored by those who are in denial about fact that we must expose the Western work force to wage competition IS the consumer. In effect, antiglobalists are saying "I want the government to exact laws (tariffs, taxes, regulations) that FORCE consumers to pay a lot more for goods just so that the almighty false god of income stream security can be succored for some segment of the population." That is a false choice and one which ignores other resolutions to the problem.

"The pure greed factor makes it possible to buy tainted glycerin from China or slave labor from Chinese Military factories or sweat shops almost anywhere."

There are already laws here, and a tort system, to deal with this. Enforce those laws.

"What you are asking for is for Americans to do away with all the non-wage costs pertaining to health and safety that are imposed on our economy, as well as lowering wages."

Wrong. At no point in my post did I ever say anything remotely like this, nor do I think it, in any case. Safety and labor laws should exist and be enforced here in the U.S. and all appropriate diplomatic pressure should be brought to bear to have an effect elsewhere. Also, consumers have a say in this (remember the poor ignored consumer?) and purchase goods and services accordingly.

"That is the true issue with globalization. Do you really want cheap produce from Mexico if the risk of contracting disease doubles or triples?"

This is a false choice and a straw man, at the same time. Your presumption of something which cannot be predicted with any level of certainty at all is at best a theoretical argument way out on the fringe of the envelope of this issue.

"There is a lot more to material well being than just the wage rate in the 21st century."

EXACTLY the point of my post. However, it is others (perhaps you?) who are arguing the opposite. They want to GUARANTEE by government mandate a certain income stream AND standard of living and lifestyle for Americans - a move which harms the forgotten factor, the consumer.

And they are ignoring the truly inevitable reality, which is that all workers, but particularly those in semi- and unskilled areas of the labor market, are going to have to learn going forward to get by with less material comfort like widescreen TV's, vacations, mcmansions, etc., and derive more of their satisfaction in life from things like religion, community, family, etc. These latter are the true sources of well-being - not some crazy government tax or regulation which guarantees they can buy more extraneous stuff.

The other reason that the Western work force, no matter what their skill level, needs this foreign competition is to reinstate a more universal work ehtic and respect for the status of being employed. I suspect most of the people who post here at the 'burg, yourself and 3DC included, are the type who work hard because it is in them to do so. You would work hard even if you had bulletproof job securty because that's just how you are. But huge swaths of humanity, regardless of country, are NOT like that. You have to have a system where there is the possibility of losing it all if you are lazy or incompetent to force those individuals to work. The perfect example of that not being the case is the public teacher's unions or AFSCME, where it is essentially impossible to get rid of someone no matter how lazy or incompetent they are, particularly once they have tenure. To a lesser extent, the same malaise of those institutions has infected the West generally since WWII.

By exposing people to the threat of losing their job if they don't work hard and well you raise up society at large. IMO the only way to do this at this point is to expose those who have this bad attitude to the very real possibility of losing their income stream. I wish it weren't so, but that fact is that a huge chunk of the population won't work hard unless it's the only option besides deprivation and starvation. So we have to craft a system which institutionalizes that set of incentives in order to make these people perform. By exposing these folks to global competition for their jobs, the invisible hand will be helped to do its job.

The ugly truth is, the West needs more, not less, worry about their employment status. Right now they're choking to death on too much comfort and job security, and pursuit of same has distorted our societies and laborers in some pretty awful ways. As a society this comfort level destroys work ethic, promotes laziness, inhibits entrepreneurialism, undercuts the family as an institution, and greases the skids for socialism.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 15:27|| 2007-06-27 15:27|| Front Page Top

#18 Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, the lead Democratic negotiator on the bill, called the vote "a major step forward for our national security, for our economy and for our humanity."

Yes, but it would've been nice if a certain Massachusetts senator didn't forget his humanity on a hot summer night in 1969...

Posted by The Ghost of Mary Jo Kopechne 2007-06-27 15:28|| 2007-06-27 15:28|| Front Page Top

#19 no mo uro and AlanC have both raised some very interesting points. I think that greed is pervasive in this country. To a certain extent, as Michael Douglas once said in a movie about Wall Street, "Greed is good." But it should not be allowed to compromise the integrity of our country. Right now, the integrity and the security of our country are being seriously compromised by trade with China and illegal immigration from Mexico. It is almost certainly true, as no mo uro warns, that both of these are strategies being employed by the ruling class against the working class in this country. To be fair, labor in this country has often priced themselves out of the market. The classic example is the auto industry where workers find themselves being laid off because their companies can't compete due to high labor costs. That's what you call a market correction. But it doesn't compromise national security. Besides that GM, Ford and Chrysler might have bargained a little harder instead of just giving the unions what they wanted and raising their prices to cover it. Remember inflation?

It is a damned lie when George Bush says we need immigrants to "do the work that American's won't do". In California and Arizona developers hire illegal immigrants. Just listen to the ranchero music on the radio when you drive past a construction site. I looked under a tile on my roof once to try to figure out why it was leaking and I found a Tijuana newspaper. It used to be that all the construction workers were legal Americans but no more. They've been displaced. Besides, in California we don't really need any more massive housing tracts, thank you very much. We're choking on the ones we already have.

Walk into a restaurant in California and you'll see that all the busboys and dishwashers are Mexicans. All of them. Most of the cooks too. Walk into a fast food restaurant like Jack-in-the-Box and you won't even be able to find anyone who speaks English. I went to a restaurant in Missourri last week and it felt kinda weird. Everybody there, even the kitchen help and the busboys, were white. The maids at the hotel where I stayed were white. Is that cognitive dissonance or is Bush lying? I did this kind of work myself when I was young so I know for a fact that Americans will do it. The fact is that Americans citizens in California need not apply. They've been displaced.

Think all the farmers need Mexicans to pick lettuce? I'd sacrifice lettuce for a secure border. Think about it: if the border was secured what would happen to all the cocaine? If Americans want lettuce bad enough, they'll pick it themselves and they'll pay whatever it costs. If they don't then they'll find something else to eat.

The immigrants compete not only for jobs but for housing. In Escondido, California the city council passed a law that required apartment owners to verify that their tenants were in the country legally and to evict them if they weren't. The ACLU jumped into that real quick. Lacking the resources for a protracted legal battle with the ACLU, the city council rescinded the law. Immigrant families have been known to double up or even triple up in one or two-bedroom apartments. That drives up the rents and puts American families at a disadvantage. Drive through Escondido some time and check out all the Mexican flags.

It's all a lie. Bush needs to be impeached.

After all, what did we do before all these people came here to "save us" from doing the work we didn't want to do? Years ago I had an uncle in the midwest who has since passed on who used to work for a meat packer. On a recent trip back there another uncle said a meat packer told him he didn't know what he'd do without the Mexicans. He didn't know if he'd be able to keep the business going. This is the midwest, mind you, not Calfiornia. This is a problem that is spreading to the heartland. I asked what they did before the Mexicans came. My uncle, a grizzled old veteran replied, "Well, back in the Depression and after the war, a guy was glad just to have a job. They didn't have all these give away programs."

That's what I'm talking about. Old fashioned hard work, guts, integrity. If you don't like your job you go to school and learn better. But you work and you get seriously pissed when the unions, the corporations and their pet politicians sell themselves like two-bit whores to Mexico and China.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2007-06-27 17:13|| 2007-06-27 17:13|| Front Page Top

#20 no mo uro
So you won't mind if when we run into each other some day and I discover that your theories are the ones that destroyed my family and its future.
I beat the living shit out of you and yours.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 18:21|| 2007-06-27 18:21|| Front Page Top

#21 no mo uro - I am an engineer over 50. I was one of the major drivers in much of modern cellular.
Before that my word processing/network software was used by the nation's largest law firm, a lot of fortune 500s and rumored another nation's embassy's.

If I am outsourced and replaced by H1Bs and Wage Slaves what chance to my kids have?

Riddle me that!

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 18:41|| 2007-06-27 18:41|| Front Page Top

#22 Drive through Escondido some time and check out all the Mexican flags.

These people are squatters. When they get enough people in certain areas, they are going to say this is Mexico now, you get out.

I know this because I've heard from a number of illegals. They are not shy about saying it either. Of course it helps if you can speak the language.

This is well and truly an invasion, and if this demented Amnesty Bill goes all the way, there will be a massive surge. Bush knows this, the other supporters know this. Scoff if you will, but Bush and the powers that be are determined to see the SPP implemented.

SPP READ IT!

Posted by Uninens Panda2867 2007-06-27 19:09|| 2007-06-27 19:09|| Front Page Top

#23 If I am outsourced and replaced by H1Bs and Wage Slaves what chance to my kids have?

It isn't intended that they have a chance. Sad but true. And I am not saying this to provoke you, it just the conclusion I have reached. Greed and the lust for power are ascendant.

Posted by Uninens Panda2867 2007-06-27 19:21|| 2007-06-27 19:21|| Front Page Top

#24 nmu,

You just don't get it. The pricing out of American labor has only a little to do with wage rates. It has a lot to do with the regulations regarding health & safty including health insurance.

There is no OSHA in China or Mexico. There is no FDA there either.

Greed is endemic in the human species. The reason that the cheap labor is available is due to the greed of the foreign potentates be they Politburo or Capitalist.

If you can negotiate trade laws that inforce all of the health and safty standards of the US for all our world wide trading partners than globalization is great.

I'm basically a Free Market Libertarian type but even I can see that slave labor is not conducive to fair competition with a free and independent work force.

See the posts on China today and in the past about everything from Tooth Paste to bolts. How much more expensive do you think all those goodies would be if they had to follow the same rules we do irrespective of wages?

When the AFL/CIO and the Teamsters are going concerns in China then you might have a reasonable argument. But it is neither moral or fair or good long term economics to drive the American workforce down to the level of the slaves and peasants overseas.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-06-27 19:21|| 2007-06-27 19:21|| Front Page Top

#25 "nmu - that is the total and complete destruction of America and the American Dream for the God of Free Trade."

Only if your definition of the American Dream is "It is the responsibility of the government, through regulations, to make sure that anyone with some training/education who shows up to work 40-50 hours a week deserves to live comfortably and never have to spend an iota of mental energy worrying about losing their job, no matter what".

In your world, the government should still be passing tariffs and regulations to guarantee income of buggy whip manufacturers.

Free trade is imperfect, is not a god (certainly not mine), but it is an infinitely nobler concept than government intervention in the market to protect income streams, and it will be, forever. Your way just isn't as good or ethical.

Your "dream" sounds a lot more like the Soviet one than anything American. America is not about equality of outcomes, it is about equality of opportunity only. To see what happens in a society bent on the guarantee of outcomes you cravenly crave, please see dying Euroland and what the socialist, hyperregulatory, protectionist state that you seem to want does to individuals, civilizations, and nations.

Since you have an emotional, inaccurate, and dysfunctional view of what the American dream, I feel it's useful to educate you. Take the time to read the Federalist Paper on unequal incomes, markets, and entrepreneurship - I believe it's #15, but I'm not sure. I'm absolutely confident that Messrs. Jay, Hamilton, and Madison would look at your interpretation of the American Dream and find it wanting.

The American Dream will survive global competition from just fine, but certain types like yourself may not.

"You left out the highly skilled like myself thrown away for H1B visa holding slaves and reams of 2 year wonder tech school grads hire in Chungking for $300 per year. (a lot of good that scheme did fricking Lucent.) I am an engineer over 50. I was one of the major drivers in much of modern cellular. Before that my word processing/network software was used by the nation's largest law firm, a lot of fortune 500s and rumored another nation's embassy's.
"

Anecdotalization, straw man argument, and false choices - congrats, 3DC, you've hit the trifecta.

Let's first look at your assertion of being "highly skilled".

In the latter half of the 19th century, there were a few men who could repair and maintain the machines of the industrial revolution. The machines were complex, individualized, and by the standards of the era, the men who fixed them were "highly skilled." These men were called mechanics. Most cities in the northeast and upper midwest had a street call "Mechanics Street", and if you go there today you can see that they were built up with comfortable family homes.

However, over time, machines became more standardized, and easier and more streamlined to fix, and more guys got into the field. At some point, mechanics were no longer "highly skilled", but semiskilled at best. That's just how it happens. I'm not saying that mechanics nowadays don't perform a useful task, but very few could be called "highly skilled".

This is what is happening in the tech field, today. Much of what could be called "highly skilled" even 7-10 years ago isn't any more. You'll just have to deal with the fact that like the mechanics of yore, much of your field is not what it used to be.

For you to go to the government and say, "pass laws and regulations which force every American to buy my goods/services at five or ten times more than they could get it in a globally competitive market because I'm insecure about my income stream and I'm too lazy to change fields" is thuggish, criminal, and, frankly, very unmanly. You'd never tolerate any other group doing this. Do you like what the teacher's unions or AFSCME have done with the education and civil service industries? Then why is it OK for you to do essentially the same thing?

As far as the Lucent anecdote goes, it in no way represents all forays into offshoring, and their results. But hey, when you have to argue from the absolute fringe of the envelope and cherry pick a small subset of the facts to make your argument look right, well, all bets are off.

"So you won't mind if when we run into each other some day and I discover that your theories are the ones that destroyed my family and its future."

It's not possible for my theories to destroy your family or any other for that matter. The only thing that can do that is your pursuit of income security and protectionism to the point where it all comes crashing down, coupled with your inability to change with markets.

What will your children do? The answer? SOMETHING ELSE. And no, it isn't my responsibility, or the government's, or a union's, do determine what that "something else" might be. That responsibility is theirs, and theirs alone. No more medieval guild mentality, please.

I can tell you that if my children required massive government regulation and protectionism in order to have a chance to succeed in life I'd be so ashamed of them that I'd consider disowning them. If your kids need that in order to "have a chance" then perhaps they deserve to fail.

But before you start foaming at the mouth and getting spittle on your monitor, I'm willing to bet that your kids will NOT fail. Unlike their "father", they will be obliged, in a competitive field, to take their game up another notch, innovate, be entrepreneurs. Or live a lesser standard of living.

"Lets replace all the Senators and Representatives with 3rd world slaves and see how the fuckers like it."

While I would like to see many of them replaced for various reasons, vengeful maniacal anger like this isn't good for you. Seek counseling.

"I beat the living shit out of you and yours."

It's been my experience at the 'burg that while debates get heated, threats of physical violence are off limits. Threats of physical violence to a commenter's wife and kids are even more odious. I'm hoping that the moderators take note of your threats, 3DC, and take the appropriate action. But I will say that such threats coming from someone like you, who goes ballistic at the faintest inkling that he may lose his job if put into a TRULY competitive market, will not cause any sleep loss on this end.

Such threats are easy enought to make for a guy with a small mentality and an even smaller weenie doing so anonymously.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 20:29|| 2007-06-27 20:29|| Front Page Top

#26 "If you can negotiate trade laws that inforce all of the health and safty standards of the US for all our world wide trading partners than globalization is great."

That's all I'm saying.

Look, I don't have all the answers to this globalization thing. But I do know that global labor competition is inevitable, will ultimately be a good thing, and fighting it in the emotional, thuggish way of 3DC is not the answer.

I also think that promoting illegal immigration is the WRONG way to get through the period of globalization.

Okay?

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 20:33|| 2007-06-27 20:33|| Front Page Top

#27 Sometimes I wonder what situation could possibly push our country into an uprising. If this amnesty joke passes some people will get violent.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-06-27 20:43|| 2007-06-27 20:43|| Front Page Top

#28 Also, ALanC, I would point out to you that the jist of poster 3DC is, in fact, about income and job security - he essentially wants the government to force you and me to pay many times more for the tech stuff he does so that he and his kids will have income security in perpetuity. Nothing there about job conditions, safety, health, etc.

Money that you and I could be spending on OUR families.

And something tells me that if we were to try to return the favor and demand that the government make him spend more of his disposable income in our own industries, he would fight it tooth and nail, and far less fairly and politely, than I have.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 20:45|| 2007-06-27 20:45|| Front Page Top

#29 "It's not possible for my theories to destroy your family or any other for that matter. The only thing that can do that is your pursuit of income security and protectionism to the point where it all comes crashing down, coupled with your inability to change with markets."

No, elite oblivion to the real economic threat to our friends and family is what could cause everything to come crashing down.

You are right that globalization is coming. But I wonder-when you and those you know are caught in it, will your attitude be so blase? I don't think it's going to be as pretty as you think.

The day when theory disconnects us from a real appreciation of what is about to happen to thousands of fellow Americans is the day when our culture is lost. I cannot cheer the hearty and pampered who sit well cushioned from disaster and tell those who are very exposed to just buck up. I know people who this immigration bill will impact very negatively and know which side of the argument I want to be on.

Posted by Jules 2007-06-27 21:02|| 2007-06-27 21:02|| Front Page Top

#30 All my cars are US made.
I buy American when I can.
(Its kind of hard to tell these days!)

Esp. with Major corporations playing spin the bottle.

Now as to income and job security.
WHAT INCOME AND JOB SECURITY MOFO!

Mine got taken away in the huge Motorola Layoffs
When laid off with 6500 others in my building at Arlington Height the HR Fucker informed me that they would replace me with 5 Indian Engineers and 2 from Singapore!

Now I am too experienced for hiring - translated that means we want H-1B slaves so I eak out a living working contract jobs when I can find them.
I suppose it would help if I was an illegal alien or a H1B visa holder.

And my patents mean nothing because the company owns them.

And the kids college expenses -- they are in loans I might never be able to pay off. Esp. since US kids are not making too much either when they graduated these days.

Now if I was a favorite of BUSH and Kennedy - YOU KNOW AN ILLEGAL ALIEN all their schooling would be free and I would have no sword hanging over me.

My last contract was helping some firms and a college develop stuff to kill AQ snipers. What have you done?

Shove it and shut up!

Oh and the last contract it got hammered when Pelosi and Reid cut money for the war.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 21:04|| 2007-06-27 21:04|| Front Page Top

#31 Oh and what disposable income?

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 21:06|| 2007-06-27 21:06|| Front Page Top

#32 oh and to die hard free traders like nu mo uro tell me one field that a child can be educated in that will not be ripped out of his hands just as he earns the degree and given to a trained 3rd world slave?

Just one!

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 21:19|| 2007-06-27 21:19|| Front Page Top

#33 I'll go 3dc one better no mo uro I won't just punch you and I am not anonymous.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2007-06-27 21:34|| 2007-06-27 21:34|| Front Page Top

#34 Ok, you myopic little man............

Medicine.

Dentistry.

Nursing.

Dental hygiene.

Physical/occupational therapy.

Chef training.

Plumbing.

Electrician.

Mortician.

Law.

Finance.

Trucking.

Artist.

Etc., etc., etc. Those are the ones I could think of in 30 seconds.

Oh and to you commenters who recklessly fling words like "comfortable" and "elite" at me, and who accuse me of being insulated from some of the negative throes of globalization - you're so far wrong in your prejudiced assumptions that you'd be funny if you didn't sound so much like brownshirts.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 21:41|| 2007-06-27 21:41|| Front Page Top

#35 ok so you are really young.

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 21:46|| 2007-06-27 21:46|| Front Page Top

#36 "I'll go 3dc one better no mo uro I won't just punch you and I am not anonymous."

Is this what it's come to?

Death threats to myself, my children, my family, because I hold a point of view with which you disagree?

You don't even know me!

Brownshirts, indeed. If the moderators of this website approve of this sort commenting, then what was once the best news aggregator site of the WoT with good commenters (including, at least from my perspective, YOU, SPoD) has truly descended into depths from which it cannot return.

I wonder what our ideological enemies at Kos and DU would make of the threats of violence on this thread?

Have you folks lost your minds? Death threats to a stranger's children, because that stranger holds a different POV than you on global competition in labor markets?

As I said above, seek help.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 21:51|| 2007-06-27 21:51|| Front Page Top

#37 I'd feel remiss if I didn't say something:

3dc, while I agree w/you in the principles of your argument w/NMU - I disagree w/any tone of violence toward another 'Rantburger and definitely toward their kids. I'm not real familiar w/NMU but he's not a Troll that I know of.

Anyways, for my $.02 - the Fair Tax is the way to go (HR 25) - write your congresscritters.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-06-27 22:04|| 2007-06-27 22:04|| Front Page Top

#38 Threats against family are a strong no-go on the Burg.

I understand people are pissed over the immigration bill. Eating our own isn't the way to solve the problem.

Debate and civil discourse, particularly between regulars, is a real must on the Burg. Thank you. AoS.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-06-27 22:16|| 2007-06-27 22:16|| Front Page Top

#39 Thanks, Steve.

Look, I'm as opposed to the bill as much as anyone here, albeit for slightly different reasons, apparently.

As you say, we're all on the same team. VDH would say that our differences, if civil, might be our biggest strength. If uncivil, not.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 22:22|| 2007-06-27 22:22|| Front Page Top

#40 Um, guys? Stick it back in your shorts, 'mkay?

Everybody knows you've got one, and nobody much cares.

Thatisall.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2007-06-27 22:28|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2007-06-27 22:28|| Front Page Top

#41 Part of the challenge, from immigration and technological innovation both, is how fast and how deep the changes are coming to our economy and workforce.

I've personally experienced both sides of this issue. no mo uro, I agree with you in principle. I've reinvented my career a couple times, thanks in part to being married to someone whose income was stable, in part to my working really really hard and in part to sheer luck.

But I think maybe you underestimate the issues for workers whose jobs go away when they're in their 40s and 50s who have house, kids, dependent spouses to support. When others depend on you, or if you've worked in an industry which was regulated for a long while or dominated by very large firms (like telecomms was and is), there are structural forces that tend to keep you in a job until the bitter end - at which point it is pretty hard or maybe financially impossible to reinvent yourself. There were a whole lot of implicit and sometimes explicit promises made to white collar professionals and blue collar workers both by big corporations in the 70s and 80s. A lot of them got broken by the 90s.

Even if the economy as a whole does fine, on balance, real people can be and are hurt badly along the way.

Posted by lotp 2007-06-27 22:41|| 2007-06-27 22:41|| Front Page Top

#42 lotp, thank you for some civil feedback.

Truth of the matter is, I do NOT underestimate the things you talk about. The world is not a perfect place. I acknowledge that some bad things will occur. Changes in workforce geography and payscale can be highly disruptive to some families. And it is not easy to retrain mid-life for everybody. My uncle had to do it several times, without a stable spouse, and he had to work his tail off.

I acknowledge that these things will occur, which is why, three hundred or so comments above, I said that I thought this whole immigration amnesty thing is a cheap way for politicians to move along towards introducing global competition in labor markets without being honest with the American public about what needs to happen and what can ultimately be expected - geographical relocations, retraining, and diminished standard of living are INEVITABLE for some people. (Although watching the response to doing this here on this thread, I'm beginning to understand their reticence to discuss these things openly.)

The pols have shown cowardice and a lack of imagination stunning even for those in their profession. What is needed is major innovation and creativity. Dealing with the inevitable exposure of the Western work force to competition from the entire planet, and the consequences that will result, in a way that won't be catastrophic will require constant work and attention in order to minimize the hurt. Congress and W have opted for the lazy way. The amnesty bill is not the answer.

I'm absolutely certain, though, that protectionism, and the hurt it puts on consumers combined with the corrosive effects it has on the work ethic and the role of the family, is not the answer, either.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-06-27 23:01|| 2007-06-27 23:01|| Front Page Top

#43 First - I made no death threats - I did say I might punch him... I'm getting older so that likely wouldn't even hurt.

but...

The way I calculate it is we are 300 million and rich compared to the rest of the world. Really rich. Consider $300/yr in Chungking china is okay for a tech worker (not engineer or scientist.)

Therefore, we will all be outsourced and the powers that be will be surprised as hell when nobody can buy anything they produce.

Henry Ford's genius was understanding if he and others paid their workers enough to actually buy the products then it was WIN WIN.

The way this games out to me is a complete reversal in all but name of the Civil War. We will all be the true wage slaves the TRANZIS want us to be and shortly replaced by indentured servants (1HB visas and the like) and real slaves in China's gulags. It may make the paki-kids chained to rug looms look free.

I can just see China harvesting these folks for organs when they complain too. Hell they are already doing it with "dissidents" and what is an upset worker? How better to get rid of him?

In my industry we were one of the early hi-tech dominoes to fall. This was in spite of good advice from a whole bunch of us moron engineers. The financial folks just loved selling big iron. A rollout of cellular in a city the size of say Kobe was about 2.5 billion. We had designs using different infra-structure that could have done it for maybe 20 million but there was no massive profit in that so folks shut up or were laid off.

Then Great Wall China corp designed a piece of crap cellular switch (gov subsidized) and sold it for 1/100th the cost. Motorola would buy them and relabel as Mot. They were junk but hi-profit junk. They reduced roll out costs to a Kobe size city to 1/10th (250 mil) and China was happy to keep quiet. Mot said the hell with quality, fired most of its infra-structure engineering and support staff and then lost most of its customers on low quality.

Now the gov played a part. A big greedy part. The gov didn't want the technology changed as it was based on tariffed T1/E1 etc.. lines. These earned huge monthly taxes for government.

The solution us engineers had come up with was to turn COMCAST into a cellular company and put neighborhood cells in their distribution amps and home size cells in the cable modems. Then you could seamlessly roam from the house to the neighborhood and onto highways provisioned as you pleased. Roll outs would have been very cheap. Sprint and ATT would have died in cellular. The gov would have made NOTHING in TARIFFS.

SO everybody hated us!

Same sort of problems with the great working fuel cells the engineers and scientists came up with . Panasonic made a sweetheart deal with Galvin to kill them. (I have seen Nextel phones running for weeks on an ounce of windshield washer fluid. In the same RMTR Chris Galvin complained to me that the gadgets we were inventing were weighing his belt down to mucn and causing his pants to fall off. I saw about 10 on his belt. I showed him the one on mine and said -- why are you wearing them all? He was too dumb to see what it really sounded like - a whine that we were bankrupting him)

Oh well

Posted by 3dc 2007-06-27 23:10|| 2007-06-27 23:10|| Front Page Top

#44 People but threats against their kids and family in others mouths when no such thing was said. It was very personal.

Sorry I'll be 55 in July and I know the reality no matter how much you reinvent yourself or retrain you are going to be stuck doing a crap dead end low skill job if you can find one.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2007-06-27 23:17|| 2007-06-27 23:17|| Front Page Top

#45 Medicine.

That would account for about less than 5% of the U.S. employable population.

Dentistry.

That would be substantially lesser still, with negative growth in domestic ancillary support services.

Nursing.

The death industry is predicted to continue to hold on to its domestic market share, as doddling baby-boomers refuse to emigrate, and die in place.

Dental hygiene.

Another area of explosive domestic employment growth, with tens of millions of hygienists holding together the ageing mouths of hundreds of millions of immortal boomers.

Physical/occupational therapy.

After a good denture scrub, the boomers waddle off to some muscle therapy, so that their smiles might appear genuine.

Chef training.

Here in Dubuque, most kitchens are staffed by illegals, so this training might not be the best investment.

Plumbing.

Good work for now, so long as local licensing exists.

Electrician.

Same as above. Accounts for less than 2% of job opportunities.

Mortician.

Another outstanding death industry opportunity.

Law.

Largely a parasitic class of employment. Adds no value to the economy and subsists off of other people's earnings. There is already a vast oversupply of lawyers, which explains much of the mischief in our legal system.

Finance.

Capital markets and lending reserves have shifted overseas. Trade deficits brought about by the transference of domestic production to foreign states has moved hundreds of billions of dollars to overseas lenders, some of which are extremely hostile to American security interests and which now impose disabling constraints on our foreign and economic policy. Most employment growth in supposedly domestic financial services is in offshore satellite offices, displacing degreed American employees, and servicing retired American citizens.

Trucking.

Best not to dwell on the past. 60k a year for a long haul driver is just too much to pay, and planners have requested that Mexican drivers be permitted to drive the trucks that Americans will not drive for 18k a year.

Artist.

Now that is an occupation of high value. How did we miss it?

Don't see anything listed here about mechanical or electrical engineers, or machinists, or production specialists, or manufacturers, or craftsmen, or farmers. Quite a few opportunities for serving the dead and dying, though.

Posted by Idols 2007-06-27 23:39|| 2007-06-27 23:39|| Front Page Top

23:39 Idols
23:28 Broadhead6
23:17 anymouse
23:17 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:14 ryuge
23:10 3dc
23:01 no mo uro
22:41 lotp
22:32 Super Hose
22:28 Barbara Skolaut
22:27 Bright Pebbles
22:26 Bright Pebbles
22:22 no mo uro
22:18 Super Hose
22:17 lotp
22:16 Steve White
22:16 Super Hose
22:07 Broadhead6
22:05 Abdominal Snowman
22:04 Broadhead6
22:03 Abdominal Snowman
21:57 DarthVader
21:51 no mo uro
21:46 3dc