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2006-11-10 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
The Truth about Beslan
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Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 08:32|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 So what I'm reading is that we should focus all of the blame on the authorities who made some mistakes for an action that few in western civilization could have been prepared for, simply because it was, at that time, unimaginable.

Who cares who didn't respond perfectly? Let's keep the focus on where it belongs: Islamic fanatics will do anything, absolutely anything to fight their war. They are the most brutal and ruthless enemies we have ever faced. This was not the fault of those who didn't wave a wand and make magic happen, this is what it was, one of the most cruel, heartless, ruthless actions imaginable and we should expect more of it.
Posted by anon 2006-11-10 09:51||   2006-11-10 09:51|| Front Page Top

#2 Unbe-fucking-lievable!

The day after the storming of the school, on September 4, bulldozers gathered the debris of the building, including children's notebooks and the body parts of the victims, and removed it to a garbage dump on the outskirts of town.

Sounds more like a hasty removal of evidence than any reverential treatment of the dead.

The survivors, however, wanted justice, and they were plunged into emotional turmoil as they listened to the version of events propagated by the Russian authorities, who put the blame entirely on the terrorists, exonerated officials of any wrongdoing (many of them were later promoted), and refused to listen to the survivors' accounts of what they had seen and experienced.

Coverup, pure and simple.

It is now all but certain that the terrorists' attack on the school could have been prevented. According to internal police documents obtained by the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs in Moscow knew four hours in advance that an attack on a school in Beslan was planned for September 1, 2004. The information came from a man named Arsamikov who had been arrested in the city of Shali in Chechnya. The information, however, was not acted upon.

Insane, until you reach this article's conclusion.

The [military launched] explosions, according to Saveliev, caused a catastrophic fire and the collapse of the roof of the school gymnasium, which led to the deaths of the majority of the hostages. The order to put out the fire did not come for two hours. As a result, hostages who could have been saved were burned alive.

More incompetence. Or destruction of evidence.

According to Saveliev, another 106 to 110 hostages died after terrorists moved them from the burning gym to the school's cafeteria, which came under heavy fire from security forces using flamethrowers, rocket launchers, and tanks. His analysis thus supports the view of human rights activists that at least 80 percent of the hostages were killed by indiscriminate Russian fire.

More incompetence.

It is also possible that the ease with which the terrorists took over the school was not solely the result of official incompetence. The Russian authorities may have deliberately allowed the terrorists to take over the school in order to have an excuse to destroy them.

Knowing Putin, this is not out of the question.

The sad reality is that 15 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, the role of the individual in Russia has not changed. He is seen as a means to an end, not an end in himself.

Has it ever been any different thoughout Russia's entire history?

So what I'm reading is that we should focus all of the blame on the authorities who made some mistakes for an action that few in western civilization could have been prepared for, simply because it was, at that time, unimaginable.

Sorry, anon, this goes well beyond "some mistakes". Yes, the terrorists caused this incident but that in no way exculpates the military's incompetence or callous disregard for human life.

Who cares who didn't respond perfectly? Let's keep the focus on where it belongs: Islamic fanatics will do anything, absolutely anything to fight their war. They are the most brutal and ruthless enemies we have ever faced. This was not the fault of those who didn't wave a wand and make magic happen, this is what it was, one of the most cruel, heartless, ruthless actions imaginable and we should expect more of it.

All of us should care. If Russia is going to be just another incarnation of the Soviet Union wolf in capitalist's clothing, we need to take note. Putin's underhanded dealing with respect to Iran are of nearly equal if not greater significance than international terrorism. Are you acquainted with how the Soviet Communists are largely responsible for the ascendancy of Islamic terrorists? Here's some background just in case you are not:

COMMUNIST MACHINATED TERRORIST TRAINING

Although terrorism originated centuries ago, modern international terrorism orchestrated by the Soviet Union arguably began at the Tricontinental Conference conceived by Moscow and conducted in Havana, Cuba during January l966.13 The purpose of the conference was to devise a "global revolutionary strategy to counter the global strategy of American imperialism."14

It resulted in the creation of an African, Asian, and Latin American Solidarity Organization based in Havana. The Conference also passed resolutions advocating outside aid for groups fighting for "liberation". During late l966, the Cubans opened a number of training camps for guerrilla fighters in Cuba that were under Soviet supervision. Palestinian groups began sending students to these facilities on the "Isle of Pines" during l966, and upon graduation, those students spawned the terrorist groups that xploded in the Middle East during the l97O's. Castro's terrorism schools were under the supervision of the Direcion General de Intelegencia (DGI). Students were flown into the country from connecting airports, or arrived in Cuban harbors by boat. Upon debarkation in Havana, they were segregated by nationality and moved to their individual training locations. The guerrilla courses lasted from three to six months. Subject material included "tactics, weapons training, bomb making- particularly how to blow up oil pipelines, map reading, cryptography, photography, falsification of documents, and disguise." Illich Ramirez Sanchez, a.k.a. Carlos the Jackal, is reputed to have received instruction at Camp Mantonzas, Cuba, prior to further education in the USSR.15

In addition to operating a series of such camps in Cuba, Castro exported instructors to newly opened sites in Angola and Mozambique. Cuban instructors arrived at locations in the Middle East after the October l973 War. During December of that year, 4O Cuban terrorist instructors arrived in South Yemen. South Yemeni desert training sites were protected by the Soviet and East German secret police, and became the focal point for instructing and sheltering terrorists from nations including Germany, Ireland, Japan, Turkey, Iran, Italy, France, Belgium, and Palestine.16

When the Lebanese Civil War broke out it created an opportunity for terrorist groups to operate from that country. In l978 the Palestine Rejection Front was firmly established at a number of sites there. In March, l978 the first team of Cuban instructors arrived at Tyre, Lebanon. They presented a detailed eight month course of instruction to their first class of perspective Arab terrorists. The curriculum included street and desert fighting, attacking people and buildings, demolitions, and sabotaging oil installations. Graduates of the school were supplied with false passports and work permits, and sent to various Persian Gulf countries that they were familiarized with during training.17


If Putin is returning Russia back to Soviet style political chicanery (something he was trained in as a KGB officer), then we had damn well be ready to begin assessing his actions on a whole different level. Russia's support for Iran smacks of the terrorist facilitation mentioned in the above article and it is a major concern if this is going to become an additional aspect of the War on Terrorism.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-11-10 10:56||   2006-11-10 10:56|| Front Page Top

#3 COMMUNIST MACHINATED TERRORIST TRAINING

Commies INVENTED modern terrorism (by the way, terrorism was invented by french revolutionnaries, as in "terrorize the people into submission through organized political bloodshedding).

See also

INTERVIEW: Dr. Joseph Douglas on Terror-Sponsorship by Non-Islamic Countries

Roots of Islamic Terrorism How Communists Helped Fundamentalists (Long Article)
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 11:31||   2006-11-10 11:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Except that this article doesn't mention some key things that we already know. On the micro level, the sexual abuse of hostages of all ages from baby to adult, for instance, to the point where some were actually raped to death. The random shootings of hostages. Withholding of food and water -- food I can understand, I'm sure the cafeteria was not supplied for a lengthy siege, but water? What odds that the hostage takers would have bargained in good faith, given the opportunity? I have absolutely no doubt that Russians were bribed to look the other way, that the siege and rescue were handled as ham-handedly as could be done, and that there was indeed a cover-up afterward. Russia has never been civilized, and is not yet; it is naive to the point beyond which even I am capable of reaching to think that they would care more for the hostages than for resolving a situation they found an embarrassing. On the macro level, the Russians are mortified by their reduction from rulers of the Soviet Empire, co-equal to the United States, to merely first among equals in a poverty stricken version of the toothless European Union, having to bargain and bully those who used to stand silent before any whose native tongue was Russian.

The facts do not reveal anything new about Putin's Russia, just provide details of yet another example that Russian is far from what we would wish her to be.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-11-10 11:58||   2006-11-10 11:58|| Front Page Top

#5 Except that this article doesn't mention some key things that we already know

I absolutely agree, the blood is ultimately on the hands of the jihadis, this was a monstrous event carried out by thugs and barbarians, no doubt about it.
But I wouldn't qualify the rescue as ham-handed, it was both criminal (saving the hostages was apparently not a priority) and incompetent, like the Nord-ost raid.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 12:18||   2006-11-10 12:18|| Front Page Top

#6 A5089, were you the one who, several weeks ago, posted for the first time about the communist origins of modern Islamic terrorism?
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-11-10 12:33||   2006-11-10 12:33|| Front Page Top

#7 Nope.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 12:40||   2006-11-10 12:40|| Front Page Top

#8 Well, thank you for the links, anyway. I certainly want to thank whoever it was that posted the original article, it was an eye-opener.

If Russia is merely devolving back into a reincarnation of the Soviet Union, we had better be ready for some real shit to start flying. From all indications, this is exactly what is happening.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-11-10 12:53||   2006-11-10 12:53|| Front Page Top

#9 Well, thank you for the links, anyway. I certainly want to thank whoever it was that posted the original article, it was an eye-opener

My problem is that I read much, but retain very little; still, this issue of soviet/islamo-terrorism is a pet subject of mine, I had discovered the two articles above at the Global Politician website (very interesting, different pov, with semi-conspiracy undertones) a couple of years ago, I might even have posted them here under one of my non-fixed nicks then, can't remember. I think it was reading an article by Ion Pacepa which opened my eyes.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 12:58||   2006-11-10 12:58|| Front Page Top

#10 From all indications, this is exactly what is happening.

Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-11-10 13:04||   2006-11-10 13:04|| Front Page Top

#11 WTF do you think the outcome was going to be if the Russians had done nothing. Arrests? Warrents? CSI:Beslan finding out who the perps were?

The central issue here is that Muslims who care nothing about anything but Allah staged this attack full with the intent of murdering children, to produce terror, the only thing islam can ever create.

Yes, the Russians were incomptetant, and yes Russians have moles and yes the Russians probably knew about the attack beforehand, but do you really think the Russians wanted this outcome?

This article is an anti-Rissian smear.
Posted by badanov 2006-11-10 13:10|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org]  2006-11-10 13:10|| Front Page Top

#12 do you really think the Russians wanted this outcome?

Yes.
Posted by Mr. Flamethrower">Mr. Flamethrower  2006-11-10 13:25||   2006-11-10 13:25|| Front Page Top

#13 TW and Bad make good points. Think...you gonna sit around and negotiate while toddlers are being raped, shot and dumped thrown out windows? The Russian response was poor because their training is poor...regard for citizenry is low...but the full weight of responsibility for Beslan lies with the terrorists. This article is mostly crap.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2006-11-10 13:56||   2006-11-10 13:56|| Front Page Top

#14 I believe that we face a perfect storm: revanchist Russia, ambitious China, envious EU, lunatic Norks and Islamists and feckless and self-loathing elites.

It may not be all bad that we withdraw from Iraq since we clearly were not prepared to do what it takes to win. We need to look to our own.
Posted by SR-71 2006-11-10 14:39||   2006-11-10 14:39|| Front Page Top

#15 9/11 has also been blamed on the U.S. government. It's also been noted that it could have been prevented. Further, it's been charged that the U.S. government welcomed it as a pretext for invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

Some things to consider when we read these articles and we judge the Russian response.
Posted by DoDo 2006-11-10 17:58||   2006-11-10 17:58|| Front Page Top

#16 Some things to consider when we read these articles and we judge the Russian response.

Nice try, DoDo. America isn't facilitating the acquisition of nuclear arms by one of the world's first and foremost sponsors of international terrorism. Your argument, intentionally or not, smacks of moral equivalency.

Further, it's been charged that the U.S. government welcomed it as a pretext for invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

This reeks of wilfull complacency or outright conspiracy in the 9-11 WTC attacks. Understand one thing, WE NEEDED NO "PRETEXT" TO INVADE AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-11-10 19:46||   2006-11-10 19:46|| Front Page Top

#17 So instead of knuckling under to eminently reasonable Islamic "negotiators", the Russians decide to just randomly bombard the school with tank cannons and explosive flame throwers.

This article smells like a steaming pile! Explosive flamethrowers? WTF? The gymnasium was blown up by Ruskie tank fire and rocket launchers? No mention of the Chechen's own suicide bombs placed among the hostages.

I think y'all need to take this article with a grain of salt... grain of salt about the size of a basketball!
Posted by Scooter McGruder 2006-11-10 20:18||   2006-11-10 20:18|| Front Page Top

#18 troubled, but I doubt there was a peaceful resolutionif th toddler-rape stories and deprivations stories are true (and I have no reason to say they weren't). Seems like major league corruption/incompetence in Russia. That's not news. People are expendable, the power of the Putin State is all
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-11-10 22:10||   2006-11-10 22:10|| Front Page Top

#19 People are expendable, the power of the Putin State is all

End of story. Terrorists are evil, Putin is just as evil. Period.

Ask yourself this same question again when Iran goes nuclear with Russia's help.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-11-10 22:22||   2006-11-10 22:22|| Front Page Top

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