Article

2004-08-16 Europe

Magal to participate in tender for EUROPEAN SEPARATION FENCE

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Posted by Heisenbergmayhavebeenhere. 2004-08-16 1:14:34 PM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Hmmm...just as the US announces it is realigning its defense structure away from Europe...

Posted by Seafarious 2004-08-16 1:58:31 PM|| 2004-08-16 1:58:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 hypocrisy, thy name is EU

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-16 2:26:16 PM|| 2004-08-16 2:26:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 One useful tidbit in this: I now know the approximate cost of a Gaza-style fence, per kilometer, for the US-Mexican border.

Posted by Steve White 2004-08-16 2:32:55 PM|| 2004-08-16 2:32:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Will they be using Palestinian cement companies?

Posted by tu3031 2004-08-16 2:38:47 PM|| 2004-08-16 2:38:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Didn't they keep remnants of the Berlin Wall?

Posted by Capt America 2004-08-16 3:21:03 PM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/] 2004-08-16 3:21:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sure did, Cap. I've got one right here...

Certified Authentic by somebody I never heard of. But I mean, the Germans wouldn't lie about a thing like that, would they?...

Nah...

Posted by mojo 2004-08-16 3:29:26 PM|| 2004-08-16 3:29:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I got two chunks of the Berlin wall. Was one chunk when I first got it but old concrete doesn't hold up as well as I thought it would when dropped. ;^(

Posted by yank 2004-08-16 3:38:52 PM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-08-16 3:38:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I got some chunks, too, but I hacked them out myself :-)

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-16 3:56:00 PM|| 2004-08-16 3:56:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 TGA - Was that you? On TV? :)

Posted by eLarson 2004-08-16 4:17:20 PM|| [http://larsonian.blogspot.com/] 2004-08-16 4:17:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Assuming 5000 K across the US...that's not very much per person ... Some math person help me out...5000K * 2million = 10,000 million. 10,000 million divided by 250 million (us population) = $40.

So it would cost only $40 per person??? ...or is my math way off???

Jeesh...that's cheap. I'll even spring for the $80 to put one up between Canada too!

Posted by B 2004-08-16 4:19:36 PM|| 2004-08-16 4:19:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Let's do the math:

Europe funds Palestinian terrorism.
Europe criticizes Israel's building of a security barrier.
Europe proceeds with building its own exclusionary fence.
Europe can roll up their hypocrisy real tight and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-16 5:14:20 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:14:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Zenster and Frank> When you show me the official Israeli decision that declares West Bank and Gaza to be part of Israel's territory, *then* you might start saying that a wall EU may built on its own territory is comparable to the one that Israel is building.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-16 5:25:23 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:25:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 eLarson, yes that was me :-)

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-16 5:31:42 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:31:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris, this is not about territory, this is about staying alive.

A priority thing.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-16 5:33:06 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:33:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 The real interesting aspect of this story to me is that the Euros seem to be defining a clear limit to the geographical extent of their project. The Ukraine, Russia, Byelorussia, etc. need not apply. Walls speak louder than words.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-08-16 5:33:16 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:33:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 not necessarily... fences can be torn down again... in Eastern Europe and Israel...

even walls can...

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-16 5:35:13 PM|| 2004-08-16 5:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are essentially non-democracies -- I'd be much more worried if EU had said to these countries AS THEY NOW ARE that they are welcome to join.

The border between the EU democracies and the neo-Soviet block (aka the CIS) has existed before now -- on one side the countries moved towards freedom, on the other towards authoritarianism and Russia-puppet status.

It's the new Iron Curtain I think, moved a few thousand kilometers eastwards -- and most countries have already picked sides, with only Georgia still teetering on the brink.

I'm not eager to see Ukraine abandoned to Russia's control but neither could EU make it a member unless its institutions were much stronger than they now are.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-16 6:00:22 PM|| 2004-08-16 6:00:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 TGA and Aris: I have no argument with either of you. Characterize it any way you wish, this sort of barrier represents a "strategic pause" that will last a decade to a generation. Once established, inertia takes over and it will be a while before the wall is removed. It's very necessary. But then so is Israel's for the very reason that Aris stated: the Arabs aren't democracies. Unlike the Euros, the Israelis cannot afford to follow national boundaries. Military necessity dictates the route of the Israelis' wall.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-08-16 6:20:58 PM|| 2004-08-16 6:20:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I say we start taking bids to seperate the Bay Area and LA from the rest of California.

Isreal and the EU may do as they wish. Isreal is going to finish the wall with or without approval from the anti-semite EU. The facts are it has nothing to do with Zionism is pure, well known, long held hate of anything or anyone jewish.

Posted by Flamebait93268 2004-08-16 6:27:28 PM|| 2004-08-16 6:27:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm not eager to see Ukraine abandoned to Russia's control but neither could EU make it a member unless its institutions were much stronger than they now are.

It's really not a big deal. Europe has pretty much left the Ukraine to 'Russia' for almost a century now - what's another generation or two?

Posted by Pappy 2004-08-16 6:31:34 PM|| 2004-08-16 6:31:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Pappy's right, but it goes deeper than that.

I'm 1/2 Ukrainian. There really are two layers of Ukrainian culture, plus the soviet Russian overlay as well.

The earliest layer of 'modern' Ukraine was Kievian Russ. Aleksandr Nevsky battling the invading Teutonic Knights on the ice. Russ was a thriving trade center with many nationalities invited to establish trade posts, but some of the Germanic tribes kept getting pushy.

The second layer of Ukrainian culture comes from the period under Moscovy influence. As Moscow emerged as a tax collecting arm of the Mongols, and then later as a center in its own right, the south-eastern steppe was always beyond its direct reach. The Tsars, seeking a couhterbalance to the major noble families, offered huge estates to the horsemen of the Volga and other steppe regions, in exchange for patrolling that area.

That's how my ancestors on my father's side became large landowners in the frontier ('Ukraine' means 'frontier') in the late 17th century. As recently as my great-grandfather, my family were breeding cavalry-trained horses and patrolling the steppes. The peace they maintained allowed that area to become the breadbasket of all of Russia (and much of the Balkans as well).

Finally, there were the Soviets (sigh), who deported Ukrainians elsewhere in large numbers, starved many of them under Stalin and left behind a bunch of hugely corrupt communist aparatchniks.

Wish it weren't so .... but it is. Just keep in mind that Ukraine as it stands is less than half Ukrainian in makeup ...

Posted by rkb 2004-08-16 7:05:55 PM|| 2004-08-16 7:05:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Sorry, that should be "south western steppe". Heh. Guess I'm thoroughly Americanized, if I think of the Ukraine as to the east.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-16 7:07:11 PM|| 2004-08-16 7:07:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Between walls and fences, there are those that keep people out, and those that keep people in. Therefore I'm very reluctant to see a close correlation between these fences and walls and the Iron Curtain. I also don't think it matters much whether there is a democracy on the "business" side of the wall---it's the intent of the people trying to cross it that matters. The intent may be motivated or formed by a particular political beast of social climate, but it's what the people are going to do inside the wall that really matters.
In America, we have a rough approximation of a border on our northern boundary, and something that's coming close to being a wall on our southern boundary. Even with the great damage done by dope coming down from Canuckistan, the long term economic damage from illegal immigration from the south is greater.
In re: the southern wall, the argument: "But you're stealing American jobs from the Mexican illegals!" doesn't hold, even if they eventually want to become citizens. There's a way to go about such things, namely work visas and other legitimate channels. Just like Israel has. The nation granting the visas and residency has every right to refrain from granting them, or make getting work all the harder.
I can't speak for Mexico, but it's well nigh impossible for an American to get work in Canada. But $400G will get you landed-immigrant status... :)
OK then, on to territory. La Raza wants a big chunk of So Cal, Arizona, and maybe even Texas. Their claim to the territory "seized" by American colonialism is probably stronger than the Paleo's claim to Gaza, or the West Bank, or the entirety of Israel. But without the American, or Jewish, state, the jobs, infrastructure, and entitlement they seek simply wouldn't exist. To the victor the spoils, and to the capitalist the capital---sometimes might is right, and a fence is completely moral when the anklebiters are carrying C4.

Posted by Asedwich 2004-08-16 7:45:14 PM|| 2004-08-16 7:45:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Asedwich - But without the American, or Jewish, state, the jobs, infrastructure, and entitlement they seek simply wouldn't exist

Unfortunately, the Arabs mammas' never read Aesops to them. If so, they missed the one about the Goose with the Golden Eggs http://www.classicbookshelf.com/library/aesop/aesop_s_fables/56/

I'm not sure how Aris missed out...being a Greek and all that.

Posted by B 2004-08-16 7:54:35 PM|| 2004-08-16 7:54:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 LOL B, what can I say. Atlas Shrugged.

Posted by Asedwich 2004-08-16 7:58:12 PM|| 2004-08-16 7:58:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 TGA, where can we see the video?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-08-16 8:00:57 PM|| 2004-08-16 8:00:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Mrs Davis...LOL... there were hundreds of "wall hackers" on that day... dunno who has the footage.

We didn't bring our camcorders on that day. I did give Dan Rather an interview but I don't know whatever happened to it. I think Germans with "heavier accents" were preferred.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-16 8:07:00 PM|| 2004-08-16 8:07:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 TGA: You didn't ask him what the frequency was, did you?

Posted by tu3031 2004-08-16 9:29:51 PM|| 2004-08-16 9:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

18:00 Halfass Pete
17:02 Halfass Pete
15:01 Halfass Pete
17:23 Halfass Pete
17:15 Halfass Pete
14:10 Halfass Pete
13:37 Halfass Pete
12:38 Halfass Pete
12:27 Halfass Pete
11:26 Halfass Pete
10:11 Bulldog
10:11 Bulldog
19:08 Ernest Brown
17:36 Aris Katsaris
11:36 Ernest Brown
11:26 Ernest Brown
11:11 Aris Katsaris
10:16 Ernest Brown
10:13 Ernest Brown
08:42 Howard UK
07:12 Shipman
04:51 Bryan
01:43 Asedwich
01:29 Zenster