The statement of saying that we have/Indians have so much to thank the white man for, I think is possibly a tunnel vision approach and doesn't grasp the full spectrum of the lessons to be learned from each other.Â
Who said that? Are you speaking as a member of a group? Which white men are you referring to? Big and Little Harp? Abraham Lincoln? Horace Greeley? Al Capone? Lief Ericsson? Julio Caesar? Sargon II? Sounds like a pretty general generalization to me...
 I have personally studied with the Indians in a very informal manner.Â
That means you hung out with them, huh? Which Indians? Apaches? Seminoles? Hurons? Sioux? Who, specifically, within those particular tribes?
She has Redskins season tickets and is ecstatic about the return of Joe Gibbs.
I would have liked to have devoted more time and energy to this process, but I am not a success story and I am white.Â
Hadda go back to your job bussing tables, huh? And the reason they didn't like you wasn't because you're white...
What is absolutely wonderful and healing about what I learned from the Indian ways, of which I need to clarify that different tribes have different views with strengths and weakness to the very similiar extent that the different nationalities around the globe present, is that they have a deep respect and admiration for the mother earth. Everyday was a prayer.Â
Another gross generalization. Some Injuns have an ostentatious respect and admiration for Mama Gaia. Others work for a living, get drunk now and then, play cards, go bowling, look at pretty girls, and in general live their lives in a productive manner.
Well, we're still having issues at quarterback. Brunell, Ramsay, and Hasselbeck are all looking less than sharp right now.
They pray in sweat lodges for their people and the earth. They use natural drugs to induce a deeper state of prayer for healing and giving.Â
Like, wow, man! Natural drugs! Like peyote and stuff, huh? Like, try not to break a chromosome...
#6
The statement of saying that we have/Indians have so much to thank the white man for, I think is possibly a tunnel vision approach and doesnât grasp the full spectrum of the lessons to be learned from each other.
North American indians lost their war. I won't demand indians thank the United States for a military victory, I dont even want them to be grateful if white folks did anything for them.
The United States won, the Indians lost and that is the fortunes of war.
#7
badanov: North American indians lost their war. I won't demand indians thank the United States for a military victory, I dont even want them to be grateful if white folks did anything for them.
I find it pretty funny that Indian radicals are always complaining about being conquered. For Pete's sake, they were a Stone Age society. The choice they had was becoming part of the US of A or becoming part of the Spanish empire or Mexico. There are no independent Indian states in the Americas - none. There were too few Indians to fight off the European settlers, and their lack of a strong intellectual tradition prevented them from absorbing the Western sciences necessary to repel the invaders, anyway. And there's nothing unique about European settlers overwhelming the Indian natives - the Chinese (and any number of civilizations) have been crushing and driving out the numerically- and technologically-inferior "barbarians" on their borders for millenia. Moreover, do Indians really think they would be better off under some form of Spanish rule? Are Indios better off in Bolivia or Mexico?
#8
Did honest peace loving native Americans (I know it is a racist term but I have never heard just what the Natives called the major landmasses of the "New World") ever once protest to their chiefs and elders "No blood for buffalo". Face it ladies and gentlemen, the native americans displayed just about every good and bad trait that every other racial/ethnic group on Earth has displayed.
Bingo, Zhang Fei. I managed to find an incredible old book about this guy who walked the length of South America's Andes on foot. He did this on purpose to avoid being regarded as a caballero and therefore end up getting treated like a person of wealth who would never get a chance to mingle with the locals. While talking with a haciendero host one evening, the host mentioned how he wished that South America had been conquered by Northern Europeans because they more frequently left an industrialized base in their wake. Spain has consistently looted their colonies and left repressive, racist regimes as a relic of their domination. Merely examine South America, Mexico or the Philippines, all of them are sterling examples of this.
#14
Honestly, the Indians were damn lucky the Europeans came over to settle as late as they did. Look at how bad they did when the settlers were using match and flintlocks. I think the Indians would have suffered far worse if the Vikings visits here had lead to colonization by Europeans during the Middle/High Ages. Settlers in wool armed with a matchlock are quite easy to kill. Settlers wearing hardened leather/chain/brigandine armor and armed with Medieval weapons are a whole other ball game for people with flint arrows and axes.
#15
I honestly cannot see any Indian walking up to a white man who has put chemicals into the soil and the air and the water and Thanking them for their wonderful gifts that they bring to the people.
That's because of the imbalanced way you phrase your argument, dearie. How about "white men" creating life-saving pharmaceuticals like the polio vaccine, or pain-killing anaesthetics, or any number of other medical miracles that have reduced or eliminated human suffering? Oh, sorry, can't be thankful for those things-white men created them. Bigot.
#16
As a member of the Cherokee nation and an American Indian, I say you are full of crap Dawn Hightree. You are a disgrace to your ancestors and make another mockery of the Indian culture. Your comments are nothing more than a stoned, liberal trying to find some way of realizing that the pitiful thing you call a life may actually has value if you do something else. The whites conquered America. Atrocities were committed on each side. However, if the positions were switched, the Indian would have conquered you just as rapidly and brutally as you did to us. This is the way of the world and it cannot be changed. The only thing to do is to live the best you can and to the best you are able in this wonderful world that not only the whites have created, but the blacks, asians and every other culture and creed that has graced these shores. In short Dawn Hightree, stick it up your stoned ass and leave us the fuck alone.
#17
I think I lost brain cells reading this. I feel so much dumber, you know, dumber than dumb. Or is it dumberer than dumber? I dont know, Im going back to the past of the past and warn myself not to read this.
#20
LOL .com
Actually He Who F*uck Up The Loom is a very
loose translation, like everything else it's a matter of LOL friction management! I never did dacron.
#23
Dawn, I think you've lost your individual war on drugs...
Best crack (pun intended) that I've heard in ages, Fred.
I think I lost brain cells reading this.
Yeah, reading this sort of poppycock does tend to lower your IQ faster than sniffing glue, 2%. I suppose I should make a collective apology for inflicting this on everyone but it's hard to resist sharing work of this depth (as in that which requires hipwaders). Where do loons like Highas-a-kitetree come from and shouldn't there be a no-bag-limit season on them? It'd be pretty easy to draw a bead on one of these comatose vegetative morons.
mmurray821, your appropriate comments remind me very little of those who protest dumping lobsters into boiling water. A Maine lobsterman summed it up perfectly when he mentioned how if the tables were turned, lobsters would chow us down in a New York minute.
#25
Silentbrick: Settlers in wool armed with a matchlock are quite easy to kill.
Actually, there's that little matter of ease-of-use, skill and range. Firearms trumped the compound bow for various reasons. But key among them was the substitution of chemical power for muscle power, meaning that you can use a firearm all day long without getting tired, but can't do the same with a compound bow. The shot from a firearm also transmits a lot more force than an arrow from a compound bow. And then there's the matter of skill. Anyone can shoot a firearm, by just pointing and pulling the trigger. Shooting an arrow requires a significant amount of muscle power, as well as the ability to figure out the trajectory of the arrow. Finally, there's the matter of range and power. Bullets from a firearm will go further than arrows, which means that a guy with a gun can shoot a bow-armed Indian before the latter can hit the former with an arrow. Bullets can go through wood - arrows cannot. These, ultimately, are some of the reasons that firearms replaced the compound bow. Note that the Vikings who reached North America in the 11th century were driven off by the Indians. Ultimately, it was firearms (and railroads) that helped win the west.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 18:53 Comments ||
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#27
"I suppose I should make a collective apology for inflicting this on everyone but it's hard to resist sharing work of this depth"
Nah. This is good shit, right up there on a par with Jane Fonda's "flow of soft, hot, empathic, breathing, authentic, vagina-friendly, relational lava that will encircle patriarchy and smother it." (see Rantburg article from last December 5th, or do a Rantburg search on "relational lava").
Posted by: Dave D. ||
08/16/2004 18:56 Comments ||
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#28
Zhang Fei, you may find this post by Stephen Deb Beste of interest. He maintains that the bow was unequaled as an infantry weapon until the U. S. civil war. For him the big difference was the years of training required to become proficient. Not something a Napoleanic army had time for. So the firearm prevailed.
What I find interesting is that the effective range of the bow SDB cites, 100 yards, is the same the Marines saw as the maximum range of shooting for most riflemen in combat (snipers a special case.). Probably has to do more with the maximum distance at which the human eye can do target acxquisition.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 19:03 Comments ||
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#29
Mrs. Davis, down the hall to your right. Just past the chick with the dreads and Visine. But don't thank me for this information. You see, I am a white man.
#34
Rantburgers, being proficient with many types of weapon, are undoubtedly familiar with the fact that your shoulder muscles get tired very quickly when using a bow. That's got to count against bows vs early firearms.
#39
I don't mean to be contentious, but firing a gun all day isn't exactly pain free. And the Indians didn't seem to have too much trouble firing their bows for long periods of time against the settlers. And given that the bow was used in Europe for warfare for oh, the better part of a thousand years, I'm sure they could have managed just fine. The point is however, that the Indians would have found fighting against men wearing steel armor and using medieval weapons a far nastier proposition.
#41
The Red man should thank the white man for the introduction of the horse and the booze to North America, both of which were readily adapted and enjoyed to this day.
#47
Speaking of Injuns...things are not so different now in America than they were 400 years ago. My ancestors would have worried about Indians the way we worry about terrorists. Most of them are friendly, but it was difficult, if not impossible to tell the good from the bad. And even the best of the good indians were no doubt somewhat sympathetic to the "bad".
The "British-American" was fighing a warrior that was fierce and proud but stuck in a bygone era- unable to compete with the modern tactics and weaponry of his opponent. No amout of bravdo could prevail.
The attacks that we have faced so far have come from foreigners, and we still want to believe that we can distinguish between ordinary American=Muslims and Extremists of the Jihad movement.
Like the Indians, the Extremeists can't win. They are pitting bows, arrows and bravado against steel and modern marvels.
I just fear, that if like the Indians, they start multiple small attacks..here and there..random things...a train blowing up here, a plane there, just like the indian attacks were random and unpredictable.
How will it be any different today than it was yesterda? After a Jamestowne or a series of attacks, what will prevent us from acting in the same way that we did then.
If I was a Muslim American, I'd consider that fact. If they don't help us, if they don't somehow separate themselves so we can tell them apart, what will prevent history from repeating itself?
I'm not advocating that as a response to terrorism, I'm just saying that those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Posted by: B ||
08/16/2004 21:51 Comments ||
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#48
in case we're talking Single Malts I prefer to keep the whiskey :-)
#50
chedderhead: Face it ladies and gentlemen, the native americans displayed just about every good and bad trait that every other racial/ethnic group on Earth has displayed.
Damn straight. Google "Crow Creek Massacre". Heck, at the Cahokia sight near St. Louis a pit filled with decapitated bodies was found -- apparent human sacrifices. Then there are some of the less-publicized cultural practives, like sequestering women when they were "unclean" and, of course, slavery.
I admire what was accomplished in the pre-Columbian Americas, but it was still accomplished by people who were, at best, very lightly civilized.
Silentbrick: The point is however, that the Indians would have found fighting against men wearing steel armor and using medieval weapons a far nastier proposition.
Not necessarily. The Vikings got chased out of the Americas, and de Soto's entrada ran into some serious problems. Also, the Natchez managed to put together a force that blocked de Soto's expedition from heading down the Mississippi.
Black powder was a nice advantage, but if it hadn't been for disease, North America would have been a MUCH harder conquest.
(And for what it's worth, I'm still not convinced there was any intent in bringing disease to North America. Europe couldn't manage to control diseases at home, and even basic epidemiology didn't start until the 1800s.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/16/2004 22:30 Comments ||
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#51
Hah, my bottle of 14 year old Oban has now reached 17 years. Hopefully it will continue to age and taste even better as time goes by.
Unlike wine, liquor does not continue to age appreciably once it has been decanted from the barrel. More often it is damaged by inadequate sealing, exposure to light and temperature fluctuations.
#53
I was just recently able to see a reading/presentation by Sherman Alexie, and it was a wondrous indictment of the attitudes this Biatch holds.
The presentation was quite rousing, and he admittedly uses a lot of scatological humor, and I can't say I favor all of his viewpoints---but his point was that America is a great nation, the only one he'd ever care to live in as an Indian, and his solution to those that hated it was.... Europe.
Saudi Arabia is not a religious state, despite being ruled by Islamic law, and the government is trying to strike a balance between liberals and Islamists in its drive for reform, Prince Talal bin Abdul Aziz, the half-brother of Saudi King Fahd, told an online Arabic newspaper. "Saudi Arabia is not a theocracy despite applying Islamic law," the maverick Saudi prince told Elaph newspaper (www.elaph.com), launched from London, in an interview published Monday. "Islamists should take into consideration that the kingdom is a signatory to international treaties that should be respected," he said, insisting that both the Saudi people and the government wanted reform. "The two parties want reform but we should not forget that there is a struggle between Islamists and liberals. Each party tries to tip the balance to its side," he said. "The ruler tries to maintain a balance between the conflicting sides. Islamists however hold an important card, as the kingdom was established on the basis of Islamic law," added the former finance minister, whose outspoken views on democracy have clashed with other members of the Saudi royal family.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
08/16/2004 10:22:06 AM ||
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#1
it's a family kleptocracy that uses religion as cover
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/16/2004 10:28 Comments ||
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#2
Headline: Prince Talal: Saudi Arabia not a theocracy
We all know that mecca and medina are freaky holy. Pray there and it's like praying X-factor any place else, no? If I were a muslim I'd kill my daughter to get there.
I think the prophet would have trouble with anything other than a total controlling leagle authority over the folks of the realm.
Monday, 16 August, 2004, 13:02 GMT 14:02 UK (BBC) - North Korea has said it will not attend a working meeting ahead of the next round of six-party talks on its controversial nuclear programme. [more at link]
In other news, Pope and bear. Tape at 11:00.
#3
Yes, but the key question still remains, CrazyFool. If the Pope wrestles a bear in the woods and nobody is around to hear them, do they make any sound?
#5
I know that toilet, it's a pre-Gore single flusher, twin turbo, able to move heaven and earth. Got a location on the porcelin .com? Course no one said anything about fighting now brownies....
#6
by Gawd... now that I look closer, it a 917-30 American Standard Twin.... this was outlawed back in '78 or so for it's moveable hydro-dynamik surfaces.
The sun is gonna rise in the east this morning, I just know it.
North Korea is threatening to use terrorism against the South, Seoul's intelligence agency said in a rare public advisory on Monday, and warned South Korean citizens in China and Southeast Asia to be on their guard. The attacks may be in retaliation for the recent airlift of a large group of North Korean refugees, the National Intelligence Service said. South Korea secretly organized the airlift of more than 460 North Korean refugees last month from a country that activists said was Vietnam. "North Korea is threatening our country with terrorism in retaliation," the spy agency said in its statement.
Not an idle threat either based on past experience.
Seoul's warning follows a barrage of verbal attacks by the North accusing the South of premeditated abduction and terrorism against its people. South Korea denied the accusation, saying it was a humanitarian act and that Seoul was bound by law to accept any North Korean seeking asylum. "We are advising heightened vigilance in view of the refugees' arrival and the North's reaction to it," a spokesman at the agency said by telephone.
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Posted by: Steve White ||
08/16/2004 12:39:21 AM ||
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#2
There appears to be a pretty good size infestation of North Korean tools stured up by N.K. agents in the south. Thats mostly what these "protesters" are.
They have had the hoses turned on them and the holy crap knocked out of them. Most Koreans are to busy to have time for this crap. More people played "Warcraft" or "Starcraft" in South Korea today then turned out for this "protest"
#1
Fences are OK unless tehy keep out homicidal bombers, then they are racist. One would think that the Israeli fence would be totally ineffective for the purposes of apartheit because some many Arabs live in Israel proper.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/16/2004 16:55 Comments ||
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#2
Fences are OK unless tehy keep out homicidal bombers
Fences are OK when a country builds them on territory that is actually considered its own. If this "European separation fence" is built, I'm pretty confident that it won't be built on non-EU soil.
#4
Israel itself has not declared the territory of West Bank and Gaza to be its own, so I don't think that Europe is under any obligation to do it on Israel's behalf.
#5
AK - we've been over this before - the fact that Israel does not annex the West Bank does NOT imply that Israel thinks it has no claim over it - rather it acknowledges that its claim is disputed, and that determination of a final boundary must done through negotiations. MEANWHILE Israel has the right (per Israel) to build a fence where security requirements dictate, without prejudicing the final boundary.
To insist on Israels building the wall on or withing the green line would be to state that all territory east of the green line is the territory of a state called Palestine, which the PA does NOT claim, in the same sense that Israel doesnt "claim" the west bank - IE the PA knows that a unilateral declaration of independence would not serve its interests, just as Israel knows a unilateral annexation would not serve ITS interests.
#7
Aris, they objected to the fence/wall wherever it was built. Personally I think the Israelis should be able to wall off the whole thing and expel anyone that acts up. But there is a lot dispute on where the actually border lies between the âoccupied territories.â Since itâs Israelis giving up the land for what certainly is NOT peace, I would allow them certain leeway with regards to security. Facts are is that the fence/wall IS working and the Israelis would be stupid to tear it down.
#8
Liberalhawk> I'd be glad enough to have Israel build a wall on the place it thinks the border *should* be built, and grant voting rights on the people contained in that line. That would atleast give us a hint of what's the maximum portion of West Bank that Israel claims to be its own.
And I'd also be more than glad to support the moral right of Israel to possess the entirety of Jerusalem + area around it + the whole of the Golan heights. And infact any other portion of the West Bank whose inhabitants Israel would be willing to give voting rights.
But doing that would ofcourse mean defacto enforcing one *specific* annexation on *both* sides -- which would be inconvenient if on a later date, Israel decided it wanted to annex some more. And it's ofcourse also inconvenient if one just wants to rule a territory without offering political rights to the people in it.
#9
"Aris, they objected to the fence/wall wherever it was built. "
Not the Europeans. The Europeans only objected to a fence/wall built inside the West Bank to separate Palestinian land from other Palestinian land in order to protect what Europe sees as illegal Israeli settlements that represent a land-grab. The Europeans never objected to a fence/wall meant to protect Israel proper.
Since the Arab states (including the PA) generally object to Israelis *breathing*, there's no point in saying that they *also* object to the fence.
#13
AK - 1. In negotiations you dont state what your final position is (well unless youre Ehud Barak and willing to let the negotiation fail) You go in with a maximal position,listen to the other guys maximal position, and then work out a compromise. Its in principle impossible for Israel to know where that compromise would be, and its absurd to build the wall on the line of a maximal negotiating position - which would probably NOT be a very good strategic position for it, and would NOT be any more acceptable to the EU (other than AK) than the current wall
B. Israel does NOT accept that the wall prejudices the final boundary, and DOES NOT accept that it represents a de facto annexation. It is a security fence and THAT is all.
C. As for the moral rights AK is prepared to concede, that and a dollar gets me on the bus, as we say here in the US. What matters to Israel is what agreement they can eventually reach with the PA. Until they can reach one, indeed until the PA has a leader who is a partner for peace, theres no point in tossing around annexation lines. Theres also no reason to build the fence on the green line, when many Israelis live in places like Maaleh Adumim, that can be economically protected by a modest eastward movement of the fence.
Now if you WANT to make it inconvenient for Israel to protect places like Maaleh Adumim, as punishment for not granting political rights to the small number of Pal West bank inhabitants of lands west of the fence, and want to punish Israel by keeping all Israelis who live in areas where Pals dont have full rights vulnerable to terrorists who murder babies, than it makes sense for you to take that position, but theres no reason for Israel to take it.
#15
What negotiations? Who's dreaming now? There exist no negotiations, there exists a state of war. Build your wall at the "maximal positions", annex the territory within, let the Palestinians outside it wage war upon the bricks instead. If actual negotiations ever take place, *then* that can change.
But I think that most non-Israelis tend to believe that the reason Israel doesn't show its maximal position is that its maximal position is actually the *whole* of the West Bank. And thus a wall enclosing that territory wouldn't be useful in protecting against West Bank Palestinians because it would be a wall on the borders with Jordan.
The ones that ended in 2000 when Arafat refused to even discuss anything but the destruction of Israel.
Who's dreaming now? There exist no negotiations, there exists a state of war.
Yes, because the Palestinians want it that way. At least, their "leaders" do, and there's not a whole lot of evidence that the people want to change leaders.
But I think that most non-Israelis tend to believe that the reason Israel doesn't show its maximal position is that its maximal position is actually the *whole* of the West Bank.
Uh-huh, Aris. Sure. "Most non-Israelis" believe in the "Greater Israel" conspiracy theories the anti-Semites anti-Zionists peddle.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/16/2004 19:32 Comments ||
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#17
I say remove all of the damm Paleos from the west bank and gaza and deport them to Lebanon. Egypt and Jordan as least have the sense to know they will never beat Isreal in a war. Put the wall on those borders. The damm Paleos have no common sense. Their colective actions speak about their willingness to "negotiate."
The Paleos refuse to renounce violence and swear to drive all the jews into the sea. Screw them. The current borders of the middle east were established by Europe who can only snipe at the Jews a people Europe almost single handedly wiped from the face of the planet. Those borders have no relationship to reality. The wall is to keep these murders out not keep people in.
#20
I'm with you on this one, Aris. The fence would be completely legal and moral if the the Israelis claimed the West Bank and Gaza, or any portion of them, and then put a wall around it. Of course they'd have to drive out all the non-Israeli inhabitants.
But it's only a technicality.
Then the Paleos could start an independence movement, much like we have here with nutcases and kooks in the Republic of Texas.
http://the-republic-of-texas.org/
#21
There exist no negotiations, there exists a state of war. Yes, because the Palestinians want it that way.
Exactly. You utterly failed to get my point, and instead you made it: Claims that Israel doesn't need to define a border for itself because it's currently in a state of negotiations about the issue are utter bull. Glad we are in agreement.
"Most non-Israelis" believe in the "Greater Israel" conspiracy theories the anti-Semites anti-Zionists peddle.
No, it's just that most non-Israelis don't believe that countries build settlements in territory that they don't desire to control -- we're just wacky and paranoid to believe that I guess.
And since Israeli settlements have been built throughout the West Bank, all the way up to the Jordanian border, we are just wacky and paranoid to believe that an Israeli state including *them* will necessarily have to contain the whole of the West Bank.
#22
Flamebait93268, your idea would have worked if Israel had done it within a year or so of the 1967 or 1973 wars when nobody contested that they had the moral high ground. They could have moved the Pals into Sinai and then given the land Sinai back to Egypt and settled the mess. But that did not happen.
Israel won't displace the Pals unless there is another Arab v Israel war involving Arab nations or a nuke. The Arabs lost so many times they know they won't win that one so they won't provide the pretext. So it won't happen unless the doomsday scenerio arises.
#23
Who's dreaming now? There exist no negotiations, there exists a state of war.
Yes, because the Palestinians want it that way. At least, their "leaders" do, and there's not a whole lot of evidence that the people want to change leaders.
Thank you, RC, for cutting to the chase. Until the Palestinians make a concerted effort to peacefully coexist, the fence is a secondary issue at best. No one from Arafat on down through the PA's ranks have yet to demonstrate any sincere intention of resolving the crisis with anything except kassam rockets and bomb vests.
So long as that remains the case, the Palestinians (in a most richly deserved fashion) are screwed, blued and tattooed.
Aris, I honestly think you are mistaken in regarding the fence as a de facto "border." Were the Palestinians to display even a hint of sincere negotiation towards peace, I firmly believe the fence's position would instantly become negotiable.
One need only examine Qorie's demand that all Palestinian prisoners in Israel be released before the crisis can be resolved if you doubt the incredible perfidy of the Palestinians. Arafat and his gang of thugs will do whatever it takes (even against the better interests of the Palestinian people) to obstruct and foil any attempts at peace. For that they should die. The fence is merely a second-best alternative.
You neglect to point out to Aris that he has already admitted that there is a "war" on, so that the question of the location of the fence for self-defense purposes is really meaningless.
Aris,
You have a nasty habit of not thinking through your positions. If there is a "War" on, then Israel could build its fence as it pleases given that the right of self-defense trumps consideration of the "enemy's territorial claims."
Let me put it bluntly...
A) Israel is correct to defend itself in as non-violent a manner as possible, given the PA's vow to never deal with it in good faith.
B) America does not have Star Trek teleportation devices which will allow it to beam forces into Syria and Iran without regard for logistical and political realites.
C) The EU will not act to stop the Islamization of Europe.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/16/2004 21:55 Comments ||
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#25
Ernest Brown> A) Israel is correct to defend itself in as non-violent a manner as possible, given the PA's vow to never deal with it in good faith
Yes, it is indeed correct to defend itself, but it has never defined those Israeli settlements as being part of "itself", has it now? It has never declared them Israeli territory, has it now? It has never actually defined *what* is Israeli territory and what isn't, has it now?
So, what's happening is that Israel's going through a different (occupied) nation's territory to protect settlements that have little more right to be there than illegal Mexicans have to be in the United States.
"America does not have Star Trek teleportation devices which will allow it to beam forces into Syria and Iran without regard for logistical and political realites"
You are now seeking to reopen a different discussion? Very well -- I will just remind you that the logistical and political realities didn't seem to bother the USA at all when it entered the catastrophe that's named "War on Iraq". Atleast the defeat of Syria or Iran would have led to immediate positive results for the wider war on Islamofascism, not ones expected only if a couple decades of democratization end up successful.
A) What "nation?" The PA has no interest in actually moving from kleptocracy and Jew-killing to legitimate sovereignty as long as Israel exists.
The Israeli Supreme Court has placed the burden of justifying the wall's location on the IDF, and, to put it bluntly, they're doing about as well as they can, given the ugly alternatives to stopping the murder bombing. Daniel Gordis has a grim piece on the wall, putting the problem very eloquently.
B) Your whining about our "catastrophe that's named 'War on Iraq'" reminds me of this current Scrappleface article. Where would we have invaded Syria from? Would our good Greek friends have allowed an amphibious invasion to be supported from their territory?
(explosive laughter in background)
Would we have done it from Israel?
No...
Make that-H@LL NO!
Would your fine Turkish friends have helped us?
(cue Aris's involuntary laughter)
Gee, I guess the Saudis would have done us proud by allowing us to take out Syria from our bases in the Kingdom.
(Rantburg shuts down from 500+ people posting LOL! at the same time)
You might want to check the geographic location of Iraq before making any more of these impossible wishes, Aris. In any case, you fail to address my point C for good reason, because it is clearly true and harkens back to B. Point blank, the EU leaders, France and Germany, were not going to help us with an obvious international outlaw like Saddam, let alone Syria or Iran, because it is in their own corrupt interest to kowtow to radical Islamists for short-term "gain" over the long term best interests of the West. You well know this, and "wishing" otherwise is foolish dreaming.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 0:17 Comments ||
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#27
"What "nation?" The PA has no interest in actually moving from kleptocracy and Jew-killing to legitimate sovereignty as long as Israel exists."
Yes, the PA is a dictatorship. How does that make the Palestinians not be a nation, except in the sense that you like to redefine words in order to suit your purpose?
"Where would we have invaded Syria from?"
From Israel.
Or from the sea, if you are so very terrified of openly declaring the alliance between USA and Israel that everyone already knows is there. Use the UK naval bases in Cyprus as staging area.
But ofcourse the UK might prove to be "Old Europe" and not such good allies after all if it came round to the issue of attacking Syria. You might have to do it *gasp* unilaterally.
But do you *really* want your whole argument to boil down to "We had no place to attack Syria from and that's why we let it keep on supporting the same global terrorism that kills Israelis and Americans?"
And I'm uninterested in addressing your unsubstantiated point C, mainly because it's unsubstantiated.
Point blank, the EU leaders, France and Germany, were not going to help us with an obvious international outlaw like Saddam, let alone Syria or Iran, because it is in their own corrupt interest to kowtow to radical Islamists for short-term "gain" over the long term best interests of the West.
And America has likewise often seen its own corrupt interest in kowtowing to dictatorships for short-term "gain" over the long term best interests of global democracy and freedom. In this France and America are quite similar.
As I said you might have had to go it unilateral. Oh, the horror of it.
#28
"How does that make the Palestinians not be a nation"
Not declaring sovereignty is the point at issue.
But do you *really* want your whole argument to boil down to "We had no place to attack Syria from and that's why we let it keep on supporting the same global terrorism that kills Israelis and Americans?"
False dilemma, we first have to have a base to put pressure on Syria and Iran.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 10:13 Comments ||
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#29
Point blank, the EU leaders, France and Germany, were not going to help us with an obvious international outlaw like Saddam, let alone Syria or Iran, because it is in their own corrupt interest to kowtow to radical Islamists for short-term "gain" over the long term best interests of the West.
And America has likewise often seen its own corrupt interest in kowtowing to dictatorships for short-term "gain" over the long term best interests of global democracy and freedom.
-----
Tu quoque is a pathology of reason, Aris, I suggest you dispense with it in the future. Did I say that France's behavior justified bad behavior by the U.S.? No.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 10:16 Comments ||
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#30
Your sudden obsession with randomly revisiting an old debate is just as unexplained as *your* bringing the supposed "EU leaders" (gonna be calling Texas "the US leader" from now on, I guess) when debating which country should have been attacked.
So at this point, I think I'd rather stop this non-sequitur thread of yours, which originated by a comparison between two fences and two situations until you choose to somehow bring back a different issue about Syria and Iraq (probably because you sought an opportunity to bring it up and were too impatient to wait until actually finding a *relevant* thread in order to display your mocking overdramatic theatrics) without even pretending any hint of a connection to the matter being discussed.
And, btw, please do admit it that when you were mocking me about my supposed lack of geographical knowledge, you didn't even know about the UK naval bases in Cyprus, just one short step from Syria.
Did I say that France's behavior justified bad behavior by the U.S.?
And I never said that US stupidity and bad behaviour justified French bad behaviour, but you nonetheless sought fit to bring up the French "kowtowing" to dictators. That's your non-sequitur insanity, not mine.
You said that "the West" should intervene in Syria and Iran. If you're saying that Germany and France no longer count towards that, fine, join the club.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 11:26 Comments ||
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#32
Not only is France's pro-Arabist tilt FULLY DOCUMENTED, it was even predicted in the following position paper presented to de Gaulle in -1945.- It is a virtual playbook of the "French exception" policy post-1967.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 11:36 Comments ||
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#33
Ernest Brown> Yes, I'm saying that the West should intervene in Syria and Iran, and yes Germany and France *do* count as Western, the same way that America counts as Western even though it didn't intervene in Syria or Iran either.
Do you know the meaning of the word "should" as describing not what necessarily actually happened but what would have been good to happen?
#34
Aris, I'm being sarcastic. Of course they SHOULD side with the West and stand against radical Islam. They aren't going to for the near future, not when they can prop up their economies with the neo-colonial exploitation of "guest workers" that started the whole thing in the first place.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/17/2004 19:08 Comments ||
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LOLOL!!
After European representatives launched a campaign against Israel's separation fence, and voted against Israel at the UN general assembly, the EU is planning a separation fence of its own. The EU plans to build a fence to separate its new members - Poland and Hungary - from its new neighbors - Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - to prevent the free movement of migrants seeking to enter the EU. Israeli companies that specialize in the construction of warning fences and security systems will participate in tenders to build hundreds of kilometers of fences along the EU's new eastern border. Sources inform "Globes" that Magal Security Systems is expected to sign a cooperation agreement with a major Western company for building fence and command and control systems in Eastern Europe. Other Israeli companies are also interested in the pending EU project. El-Far Electronics also plans to participate in the tender through a large international partner.
Defense industry sources estimate the potential business at several hundred million dollars. Based on the experience of building Israel's separation fence, each kilometer of fence costs $1 million to build. Bases, sophisticated transit points, and observation and command and control systems cost $2 million per kilometer. Magal, the main contractor for most of the 140-km separation fence around Samaria, also provides the IDF with war rooms, command and control systems for the buffer area, and the Fortis integrated command and control systems for settlements and secure facilities. Magal declined to comment on the report
#7
I got two chunks of the Berlin wall. Was one chunk when I first got it but old concrete doesn't hold up as well as I thought it would when dropped. ;^(
#10
Assuming 5000 K across the US...that's not very much per person ... Some math person help me out...5000K * 2million = 10,000 million. 10,000 million divided by 250 million (us population) = $40.
So it would cost only $40 per person??? ...or is my math way off???
Jeesh...that's cheap. I'll even spring for the $80 to put one up between Canada too!
Posted by: B ||
08/16/2004 16:19 Comments ||
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#11
Let's do the math:
Europe funds Palestinian terrorism.
Europe criticizes Israel's building of a security barrier.
Europe proceeds with building its own exclusionary fence.
Europe can roll up their hypocrisy real tight and stick it where the sun don't shine.
#12
Zenster and Frank> When you show me the official Israeli decision that declares West Bank and Gaza to be part of Israel's territory, *then* you might start saying that a wall EU may built on its own territory is comparable to the one that Israel is building.
#15
The real interesting aspect of this story to me is that the Euros seem to be defining a clear limit to the geographical extent of their project. The Ukraine, Russia, Byelorussia, etc. need not apply. Walls speak louder than words.
#17
Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are essentially non-democracies -- I'd be much more worried if EU had said to these countries AS THEY NOW ARE that they are welcome to join.
The border between the EU democracies and the neo-Soviet block (aka the CIS) has existed before now -- on one side the countries moved towards freedom, on the other towards authoritarianism and Russia-puppet status.
It's the new Iron Curtain I think, moved a few thousand kilometers eastwards -- and most countries have already picked sides, with only Georgia still teetering on the brink.
I'm not eager to see Ukraine abandoned to Russia's control but neither could EU make it a member unless its institutions were much stronger than they now are.
#18
TGA and Aris: I have no argument with either of you. Characterize it any way you wish, this sort of barrier represents a "strategic pause" that will last a decade to a generation. Once established, inertia takes over and it will be a while before the wall is removed. It's very necessary. But then so is Israel's for the very reason that Aris stated: the Arabs aren't democracies. Unlike the Euros, the Israelis cannot afford to follow national boundaries. Military necessity dictates the route of the Israelis' wall.
#19
I say we start taking bids to seperate the Bay Area and LA from the rest of California.
Isreal and the EU may do as they wish. Isreal is going to finish the wall with or without approval from the anti-semite EU. The facts are it has nothing to do with Zionism is pure, well known, long held hate of anything or anyone jewish.
#20
I'm not eager to see Ukraine abandoned to Russia's control but neither could EU make it a member unless its institutions were much stronger than they now are.
It's really not a big deal. Europe has pretty much left the Ukraine to 'Russia' for almost a century now - what's another generation or two?
I'm 1/2 Ukrainian. There really are two layers of Ukrainian culture, plus the soviet Russian overlay as well.
The earliest layer of 'modern' Ukraine was Kievian Russ. Aleksandr Nevsky battling the invading Teutonic Knights on the ice. Russ was a thriving trade center with many nationalities invited to establish trade posts, but some of the Germanic tribes kept getting pushy.
The second layer of Ukrainian culture comes from the period under Moscovy influence. As Moscow emerged as a tax collecting arm of the Mongols, and then later as a center in its own right, the south-eastern steppe was always beyond its direct reach. The Tsars, seeking a couhterbalance to the major noble families, offered huge estates to the horsemen of the Volga and other steppe regions, in exchange for patrolling that area.
That's how my ancestors on my father's side became large landowners in the frontier ('Ukraine' means 'frontier') in the late 17th century. As recently as my great-grandfather, my family were breeding cavalry-trained horses and patrolling the steppes. The peace they maintained allowed that area to become the breadbasket of all of Russia (and much of the Balkans as well).
Finally, there were the Soviets (sigh), who deported Ukrainians elsewhere in large numbers, starved many of them under Stalin and left behind a bunch of hugely corrupt communist aparatchniks.
Wish it weren't so .... but it is. Just keep in mind that Ukraine as it stands is less than half Ukrainian in makeup ...
#23
Between walls and fences, there are those that keep people out, and those that keep people in. Therefore I'm very reluctant to see a close correlation between these fences and walls and the Iron Curtain. I also don't think it matters much whether there is a democracy on the "business" side of the wall---it's the intent of the people trying to cross it that matters. The intent may be motivated or formed by a particular political beast of social climate, but it's what the people are going to do inside the wall that really matters.
In America, we have a rough approximation of a border on our northern boundary, and something that's coming close to being a wall on our southern boundary. Even with the great damage done by dope coming down from Canuckistan, the long term economic damage from illegal immigration from the south is greater.
In re: the southern wall, the argument: "But you're stealing American jobs from the Mexican illegals!" doesn't hold, even if they eventually want to become citizens. There's a way to go about such things, namely work visas and other legitimate channels. Just like Israel has. The nation granting the visas and residency has every right to refrain from granting them, or make getting work all the harder.
I can't speak for Mexico, but it's well nigh impossible for an American to get work in Canada. But $400G will get you landed-immigrant status... :)
OK then, on to territory. La Raza wants a big chunk of So Cal, Arizona, and maybe even Texas. Their claim to the territory "seized" by American colonialism is probably stronger than the Paleo's claim to Gaza, or the West Bank, or the entirety of Israel. But without the American, or Jewish, state, the jobs, infrastructure, and entitlement they seek simply wouldn't exist. To the victor the spoils, and to the capitalist the capital---sometimes might is right, and a fence is completely moral when the anklebiters are carrying C4.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 20:00 Comments ||
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#27
Mrs Davis...LOL... there were hundreds of "wall hackers" on that day... dunno who has the footage.
We didn't bring our camcorders on that day. I did give Dan Rather an interview but I don't know whatever happened to it. I think Germans with "heavier accents" were preferred.
Two cousins of the former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein have reportedly been granted asylum in Sweden and were hiding in an unnamed town. According to the Swedish tabloid Expressen, the two cousins had fled Iraq to Jordan two months ago and made their way to Sweden. The paper quoted an anonymous Iraqi intelligence agent, who said that the two were both former generals in the Iraqi army and feared capture by the US troops, reported the online news service of Radio Sweden.
#3
I wonder if the Swedes will care at all if the Iraqi federal prosecutors office produces reams of documents implicating these birds in horrific crimes. They will probably retain their "asylum" status *and* Iraq will be turned down because it has a death penalty.
Muslim extremists have threatened an "Islamic earthquake" and "nights of bloodshed" in the Netherlands unless Dutch troops are withdrawn from Iraq. The warning came a day after a Dutch soldier was shot dead in southern Iraq. "We address this message to all crusader countries plotting against the Muslims, and which are sending forces to Iraq and Afghanistan, especially Italy and the Netherlands," organisation al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad said on an website on Sunday. Al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad is said to be group connected to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the reputed leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq. "Expect a hell that will turn your nights into bloodbaths," warned the statement posted on an Islamic website and addressed "to the European countries.... to the Dutch government and people." The group warned the Netherlands that the statement was "a final message that we are sending to you, and it is a simple message, namely the pullout of Dutch forces from Iraq. Or else, your fate will be similar to the fate of Italy and other states," which have been the target of deadly terror attacks. "You will be surprised by the Islamic earthquake that will shake your country. You did not learn from the lesson of Spain and other countries. You only understand the language of blood and car bombs," the statement warned.
The authenticity of the statement has not yet been verified. A spokesperson for the Dutch foreign ministry said it took every threat seriously and the matter is under investigation. The government issued a terror alert on 9 July and security was tightened at key installations in the west of the country. It was later confirmed the arrest of a Muslim youth, 17, was one of the main reasons for the alert that is still in force. Arrested for questioning about an armed robbery, police allegedly found plans of buildings and installations in his home.
#2
Same in UK - deportation/repatriation's the only option to stop this bullshit.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/16/2004 7:30 Comments ||
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#3
Vacant-eyed subhuman Muslim automatons doped to the gills with visions of virgins will find that the Dutch have considerable backbone and wont be ordered around.
#7
Howard, hubby asks me to ask, do you have a link?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 9:56 Comments ||
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#8
The problem with deportations is they could move to another EU country to avoid deportation couldn't they? If the EU doesn't stand together I don't think they can do anything about it.
The EU should have a policy of stopping all new Visa's (student/work/tourist) to Islamoids. They should also stop treating refugees and other Islamoids better than their own citizens.
#15
I just looked at your post in the sinktrap, Pete. The basis of this website is civil, well-reasoned discourse. Your post was neither. Please mind your manners while you're here.
#17
I take umbrage at that remark, H. Peter. I am not muslim, and I showered this morning, as no doubt did most of your readers. "Muslim filth" tends not to stop by here.
And this website is the property of the idiots who run it, so their decision is final. Don't like it? Go elsewhere.
#18
And Ellian really was a remarkable little boy.
Not sure, but did Marshal Reno have a private meeting, with the remarkable little boy before deporting his sorry little ass. All that while AQ plotted. Not sure who was the worst member of Clinton's crew , so many choices. But that blank slab of deformned woman like thing...
#20
Yo, Pete, I'm the one putting your comments into the sink trap.
I've been reading your comments for quite a while. As noted by another moderator, Rantburg is about civil discourse. We can be and are snarky, we do rant, but there are boundaries, and you've consistently exceeded them.
Your posts are just plain offensive to average, good folks, and you generally speak the language of the gutter. I read a few of your comments and I feel like spraying my monitor with Windex.
Fred's the main man and he'll judge this. In the meantime, if you can't clean up your act a little, I'll put everything you write into the sink trap. Think about it.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/16/2004 14:26 Comments ||
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#22
It's still okay to be mean-spirited and vicious tho right? I'm still trying to out what happened to poor Mr. ^D^ I hope he's not leading a Stephen King like existence.
#25
Italy held tough, but I don't have a good take on the Dutch. If we start hearing the self-blaming claptrap from the international media ("it is because of what we are doing that these attacks are happening; you have to understand why the terrorists are doing this; we have to be more sensitive, blah blah blah") and an attack on the Dutch happens, won't the Dutch be tempted to join with Frenchmen, Spaniards, etc, and denounce the West's presence in Iraq?
#31
It's time for "open season" on all things islamic. Destroy anything and everything muslim. All muslims must die. They're filthy fucking animals who are a cancer on the body of humankind.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
08/16/2004 11:26 Comments ||
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#32
Do the idiots who run this website even know what the word "RANT" means?
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
08/16/2004 12:27 Comments ||
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#33
Oh.....By all means, let's be civil to muslim filth.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
08/16/2004 12:38 Comments ||
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#34
#17, Then my dear, I wasn't talking to/about you. WAS I?? If you're not a filthy muslim animal, then you're just buttin' in. What was that Bob Dylan said?..... "Just like a woman."
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
08/16/2004 13:37 Comments ||
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#35
Well, I'll tell you what stevey boy..... FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
08/16/2004 15:01 Comments ||
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A tabloid newspaper in Britain claimed yesterday to have exposed major security breaches at the Athens Olympics, after one of its reporters got a job at the main stadium without a thorough security check. So "shambolic" was security that a Sunday Mirror reporter at one point was able to enter the stadium with passes bearing the names "Robert bin Laden" and "Michael Mouse", it said. The paper said its reporter enjoyed virtually free access to the venue right up to Friday's opening ceremonies, and that a security sweep had failed to find three mock bombs that he had planted 10 days ago. "While working undercover, our reporter also discovered (that) many workers were not vetted before getting their jobs, vehicles and bags were allowed onto the site without being searched, (and) bomb detectors and scanners were not working," it said.
Greek authorities have promised ultra-tight security for the Olympiad, the first since the September 11 attacks in the US in 2001 carried out by Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network. The Sunday Mirror said its reporter got a $18 (BD7) an hour job as a fork lift driver at the main stadium within days of arriving in Athens on July 6. "There was no interview and no references were asked," it said, despite his passport being "crammed with border entry stamps from countries known to harbour Al Qaeda sympathisers such as Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon".
It added that during a "security lockdown" on August 5, intended to fully sweep Olympic venues, security agents failed to find three mock bombs which the reporter had placed in a locker, a cardboard box in an area where opening-night performers prepared, and a sandwich box in the main Olympic stadium, it said. On opening night, the Sunday Mirror continued, the reporter entered the stadium without going through metal scanners, which had been put out of order due to power failures.
Posted by: tipper ||
08/16/2004 12:20:50 AM ||
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#1
Michael Mouse got in? The bloody nerve! He owes me a hundred bucks! Stop that montebank! Listen to me! He is a liar and a cheat, fire him!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/16/2004 2:48 Comments ||
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#2
And of course, all of this is authenticated by what photographic evidence, which notary public or particular professional witness?
Anyone may claim what is printed above, but without some sort of verifiable chronological record it means little more than used Ouzo.
#3
The Mirror certainly has something of a 'credibility problem' after the fake soldier abuse pics it chose to publish, but I don't doubt these claims. British tabloids love this sort of infiltration expose; they're common and trustworthy. I can't recall one turning out to have been faked... Howard, Shep, Tony?
#5
his passport being "crammed with border entry stamps from countries known to harbour Al Qaeda sympathisers such as Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon".
I think that if he's going to accuse the security of the Olympics for not using enough profiling, he should also have made a note that he is a blonde, middle-aged, chubby, and clean-shaved person with Northern European looks.
So really at that point one has to wonder whether it was too little or too *much* profiling that allowed him to get in. (always assuming his story is true)
#7
No, they're always pretty close to the mark - infiltration plots like this are the oxygen of British tabloids - very unlikely to have been faked IMHO. I await the first boom with trepidation. May I say, having travelled across Greece by rail, they seem to have sorted themselves out and done a damn good job thus far.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/16/2004 8:58 Comments ||
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#8
Bulldog> "Is he? As far as I can see, he's simply accusing the security of being incompetent"
I think the "crammed with border entry stamps from countries known to harbour Al Qaeda sympathisers such as Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon" implied that he has a background of travels that fits a terrorist's profile -- but as I said he's not mentioning the elements that don't so fit it.
#9
I can just imagine that after all this fuss they've got the usual lard-ass Greek cop with his ass falling out the back of his trousers threatening foreigners with a stick if they don't let him get his 40.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/16/2004 9:15 Comments ||
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#10
What you seem to be implying, Aris, is that only swarthy men with heavy accents need raise the suspicions of the Olympic security. Just a wee bit racist on your part, no?
Doesn't the fact that he walked round with imitation bombs worry you in the slightest? Besides, how did your non-existent supposed 'profiling' miss a man named "bin Laden"?
#11
Bulldog> "What you seem to be implying, Aris, is that only swarthy men with heavy accents need raise the suspicions of the Olympic security."
No, I think I'm saying that you can't have it both ways: you can't both use his travels from the Middle-east as argument in favour of him being a high risk, *and* not accept that his actually being a Nordic middle-aged overweight clean-shaved chap is an argument against that.
Choose and pick. Should such profiling occur or shouldn't it? Should every person be treated as an equal risk, or should such things as origins be taken into account to put people into low- and high-risk categories? Choose! CHOOSE!
Besides, how did your non-existent supposed 'profiling' miss a man named "bin Laden"?
A name which he says he pencilled in on his pass. Not the name that he actually *provided* to anyone. He may have gotten a "haha! nice joke!" by anyone who saw the name pencilled on his pass, but I'd doubt he'd have mentioned that.
Besides that, I have no clue whether Greek security is efficient or not. I'm only saying that *his* arguments are hole-filled.
And btw, some bits like the metal scanners being out of order have been categorically denied -- and even though my distrust towards the greek government is exceedingly great, my distrust towards the reporters of British tabloids is even greater.
#12
Nothing better than the Press (a) messing with and adding to the problems of an already overstretched security apperatus. (b) Telling Al Queda where the week spots. are.
From a certain cynical point of view this looks like a terrorist dry run done right before our eyes.
#13
What about stories of give away tickets? Is this really being porly attended?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 9:53 Comments ||
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#14
Sure, Aris. Any excuse rather than face up to the fact that a man was allowed to wander around Olympic sites carrying and planting imitation bombs, who doctored his pass and had a history of visiting terrorist states. Oh no, you'd rather blame the British journalist than the embarassingly poor quality of Greek security. You also think terrorists (and all Muslims, presumably) are easily identifiable by sight alone. Very healthy attitude you have there... Sounds like you'd do as good a job at organising security as whoever's alread in charge.
Yank - you don't believe that pointing out how inadequate the (very expensive and, by some, vaunted) Olympic security arrangements are is a good thing? Better to protect the underperforming hosts from embarrassment rather than raise awareness amongst the public as to how their protection has been neglected?
#15
At least the Greeks are now aware of the surname 'Bin Laden'.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/16/2004 10:04 Comments ||
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#16
Bulldog, I think doing such a thing could be a great public service if the information were provided to security before published to the world. It would be best if it was published after the Olympics had completed to prevent fear from screwing with the already screwed attendance.
As is all the report serves is to spread fear and provide the Greeks with someone to blame for the empty seats.
#17
Yank, I've got friends at the Olympics now. I'd rather they knew what they were getting themselves involved with. Would you trust the Greek authorities, with their blame-the-messenger attitude, to sort things out if told of the lapses in private? Could they? The Mirror's done us all a favour in bringing the shocking information to light. Hopefully future organisers will be more on the ball.
"You also think terrorists (and all Muslims, presumably) are easily identifiable by sight alone."
John Walker Lindh being a prime example of one that couldn't.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/16/2004 11:31 Comments ||
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#19
Ernest - and shoebomber Richard Reid (if only he'd shaved, lost those insane stary eyes, showered, stopped muttering like a lunatic. But I'm glad you see my point. Besides, it's not just alQ who might want to poop the party. Greece has its share of domestic terrorists.
#20
Besides, it's not just alQ who might want to poop the party. Greece has its share of domestic terrorists.
True, but you constantly miss my point that I'm referring to one *specific* argument of Graham -- namely (the way I understood it) that his having visited from the Middle-east should have put him on a high-risk grouping --- even though his profile is otherwise the *opposite* of a Middle-eastern terrorist.
John Walker Lindh
Lindh had a typically Taliban long beard and was young, he wasn't a middle-aged clean-shaved chubby fellow. Does Al Qaeda often recruit Northern European grandparents?
Hasn't the typically conservative Rantburger argument in favour of profiling been that Swedish grandmothers don't pose as much danger as young Arab men?
#21
Bulldog, you make a good point, but would this info cause your friends to ditch the Olympics? Or do you hope that the embarrassment will cause the Greeks to take it more seriously thus preventing an attack?
#22
Aris, you seem to miss the point that most Rantburgers (including myself) support profiling as part of security procedures to help identify terrorists. In situations where everyone is under scrutiny, it makes sense to include anyone who has something about them that may fit a terrorist's profile (e.g. places visited, and/or religion, and/or criminal record) for special attention. That does not mean you ignore the rest. The places visited aspect of the Mirror reporter's passport stamps should have raised a flag somewhere, sure, irrespective of his nationality or ethnicity. But that's not really the point. It seems his profile wasn't properly checked at all, and this insufficiently-vetted individual was subsequently allowed do conduct activities that would give a genuine terrorist wet dreams.
Lindh had a typically Taliban long beard and was young, he wasn't a middle-aged clean-shaved chubby fellow.
Shave Lindh, fatten him up and wait a few years... Why is that impossible? Do you really think it's impossible that a terrorist organisation would include older, fatter members? November 17's members are getting on a bit now, if I recall correctly.
Bulldog, you make a good point, but would this info cause your friends to ditch the Olympics?
No, but they may consider going to the beach rather than watching extra events. They might also be more vigilant. I expect there are a few more vigilant people out there after the Mirror story... And the Mirror's expose related to construction security failings. Too late for a terrorist organisation to use the information now.
Or do you hope that the embarrassment will cause the Greeks to take it more seriously thus preventing an attack?
Possibly, though I wouldn't expect it. But highlighting security failings not only shames the culprits - it ought to also encourage the next hosts to do a better job. And that should make life harder for the terrorists. Doesn't always work that way though. It seems every year one tabloid or another manages to smuggle a weapon and/or a gun onto an aircraft at one of the UK's major airports ;) .
#25
"You have one last chance! Reject the works of heretics, confess to the ... TWO last chances! Reject the works of heretics, confess to the Pope and renew your faith ... THREE last chances ... You have THREE last chances." [/MP]
#26
#13 - Pretty poor attendance such that I've actually bother to watch. Women's beach volleyball seemed to have a fair turn out, though -- imagine that. LOML said that there weren't many people watching girls' gymnastics last night.
#3
We still get to keep the AFRC hotel in Garmish, right? Please?
Posted by: Steve ||
08/16/2004 15:48 Comments ||
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#4
Evidently, some person from the Clinton Administration named Holebroke (sp) is claiming that it will be too expensive to bring our troops and their families back from overseas deployment. Does he think that we are truly not smart enough to see through an accounting fiction?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/16/2004 17:03 Comments ||
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#5
SH - Richard Holbrook - Clintoon Bosnia negotiator and Skeery Foreign Policy asshat consultant. Regularly shows up on Fox to be Skeery nay-sayer and apologist regards anything in Bush Doctrine.
#6
I saw Richard Holbrook in Winchester Va about 12 years or so ago... in a holiday inn... very strange, one of his chilliuns was being Apple Queened, I wanted to ask him for a few insights on negotiations but I was shy and having a tough time getting back to my table, the damn lounge was crawing with the scaly types and the floor was slick with dead carters.
#7
[Holbrook] is claiming that it will be too expensive to bring our troops and their families back from overseas deployment.Does he think that we are truly not smart enough to see through an accounting fiction?
Maybe just the ones who think it's going to happen all at once. It's planned for 10 year period.
#8
What they are all snivelin' about is the fact that there fellow travelers (socialist international members) are going to lose $US to help prop up their cradle to grave welfare system in the EU.
The EU leadership hates the US. They are fully training their population to hate the US, even in the U.K. Screw them get our troops out now. Don't wait 10 years. When the Russian wolf starts growling in their direction screw them again. Some ass hat on Fox from the Kommie Kerry Edwards Camp was going on about how our troops are "closer". Well being close is worthless if NATO refuses to act or if they don't allow us to use their airspace. Get US out now lock stock and barrel don't even leave one rusty nail behind. Fact Germany can not defend it's self. It can't afford to. We are being used as their protection at our own expense. Screw them.
#9
Flamebait, you are talking nonsense. Germany certainly hasn't denied the U.S. the use of airspace. Instead German soldiers stood guard to protect U.S. military installations so U.S. troops stationed in Germany could go to Iraq without worrying (free of charge btw). Just about every wounded soldier gets his first treatment in Germany.
Germany spends more than a billion euro a year on American military presence here.
U.S. troops are not in Germany to protect us from some bear growling, but because it's logistically and strategically convenient.
If the Pentagon thinks that their new strategy is better, so be it. Whether it's cheaper or not, I don't know. The restaurants and nightclubs of Würzburg and Wiesbaden will have harder times but that's about it. The reduction of GERMAN troops has been far more painful for the cities involved.
German can defend herself against current dangers. Should there be major terror attacks in Germany, there is nothing that a strong U.S. presence could change.
Fact is, the Middle East will be the major battlefield in the next 5 years. From what I hear the two heavy armored divisions in Germany will be replaced with one brigade, a unit roughly one-third the size of a division's 15,000 or so troops. Instead of tanks, the replacement unit will be outfitted with new Stryker vehicles, the smaller, lighter and faster armored vehicles that are a key part of the Army's future strategy. That makes sense, because it's no longer the Soviet troops we're facing. It's likely that America will have to be present on several smaller battlegrounds (the massive involvement in Iraq is rather the exception to the rule).
The different European armies will have similar choices to make if they want to be relevant. Lean, mean, fast... this is the ticket for the future.
#10
TGA, what do you think that the German Government will do with the land as it's made available? It looks like the pullout will be slow to allow for an orderly transfer. With the fencing and such already installed, I would think that research type industrial use would be a good fit for some of the land.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/16/2004 20:34 Comments ||
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#11
TGA: âGermany certainly hasn't denied the U.S. the use of airspace. Instead German soldiers stood guard to protect U.S. military installations so U.S. troops stationed in Germany could go to Iraq without worrying (free of charge btw). Just about every wounded soldier gets his first treatment in Germany.â
FlameBait isnât talking nonsense. While the US hasnât been denied use of airspace by Germany to date, other EU nations have denied airspace, rail travel, and port rights to US armed forces. Given the current German political wind, removing US troops makes good sense.
Werenât there news reports that Germans wanted to charge the US for providing German guards to protect US military installations? Presumably from demonstrations by Germans. Hereâs a related article:
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1187965_1_A,00.html
Didnât a German doctor refuse to treat US soldiers?
Isnât FlameBait correct that the German leaders and the German media are teaching the German populace to hate Americans?
âGerman can defend herself against current dangers. Should there be major terror attacks in Germany, there is nothing that a strong U.S. presence could change.â
#13
Anonymous 5032 (its nicer to talk to a person btw).
If I remember well the major obstructionist was Turkey, not an EU member.
The cost free protection has been going on for 3 years now. Not that anybody in the U.S. seems to notice this. Has nothing to do with demonstrations. Those are taken care of by German police.
The doctor? If I remember well there was a doctor in Hanover who'd said such a thing. Needless to say that he was hundreds of miles away from the nearest U.S. soldier and he got rapped badly by the local medical association.
The government and "the" media teaching Germans to hate Americans? That's nonsense. Some SPD guys have said hostile things about Bush but nobody is in the business of hate teaching. Our media is as multifacetious as it can be, so you'll find just about anything... from sense to nonsense.
And those current "political winds" will change even before the first troops move back to the U.S.
This has little to do with Germany. U.S. and German military have a perfect working relationship.
From 1989 to now U.S. presence in Germany has been reduced from 250000 to 75000, yet nobody took this as a sign of worsened relations between the two countries.
The focus has shifted, that's all. I don't miss the Soviets, thank you.
If you think you're better off in Romania or Uzbekistan, so be it. But I bet the locals won't be invited to guard your installations.
#14
TGA I am glad you were able to inform me. All I have seen in EU news here is Cafes that said they would not serve people from the US and anti US protests (typical anarco nut jobs) I just get the feeling from reading the press of Europe that we are hated in Europe. Europe expects us to behave as they wish blaming us for everything wrong in the world. I am not getting that from the US press but the Eu press.
I don't want to put any US troops in any other counrty than the US. I am for protecting our own border (with Mexico.)
#15
Clearly the Kerry camp is afraid the votes of servicemen will actually be COUNTED this time if they come home to the states they are registered. (CF. Florida, Gore, denial of absentee ballots from servicemen oversees.)
We get millions of U.S. tourists every year. I haven't heard of a case that they got refused service. There may be isolated cases. Of course those will be the ones you read about.
Germans are more willing to talk politics with foreigners, so that may cause conflicts sometimes. I never start those with strangers. An American abroad (or a German for that matter) will always be in an odd position when he has to talk about politics at home.
I reserve this for good friends, who know who you are.
#17
TGA - the only time I've ever gotten bad service and snobbery over there is when I was in France and spoke English.
Funny thing is, I went back to that same place a few months later (on business) and spoke German (I have a fairly lazy Bayerischer accent) with my wife and the Frenche treated us German speking people VERY nicely - at least to our faces.
You Germans sure have trained the French. Shame your leadership will not remind them of the same.
Lebanese officials and the country's media have responded strongly to France's recent measure banning the Lebanese Hizbullah's Al Manar satellite television network from broadcasting in the country. In a letter to the French Foreign Ministry which was disclosed on August 13, the Lebanese Foreign Ministry announced its support of Hizbullah's Al Manar network and condemned the legal proceedings that have been brought against it, arguing that the station's programming was anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.
"There's a diffo, y'see? It's... ummm..."
The letter from the Lebanese ministry argued that Al Manar was mistakenly accused of anti-Semitism, while the station actually condemned "the Zionist ideology and practices at the core of the Arab-Israeli conflict and at the source of suffering by the Palestinian people."
"Yeah! That's it!"
"Danger lies in the Israeli government's attempt to portray every opposing policy as an attack on the Jewish people," it said. Meanwhile, Lebanese President Emile Lahud also criticized the action and called on France to reflect further on the principles of freedom. It is thought that France made the decision to ban Al Manar broadcasts in order to improve its ties with the Zionist regime. Disagreements arose between France and the Zionist regime after Israel began encouraging French Jews to immigrate to Israel and to settle in the occupied territories of Palestine.
Since the Frenchies seem to be reverting to old habits of... ummm... anti-Zionism.
The dispute led to verbal clashes between French and Israeli officials. In addition, the Zionist regime's accusations that European governments have not taken effective steps to combat anti-Semitism in Europe have increased tension between the two sides and strained Europe-Israel relations. Israel is creating this commotion in order to pressure European countries and force them to comply with Zionist demands.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/16/2004 12:21:58 AM ||
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Iran warned the Iraqi government on Monday that it was taking "very seriously" the matter of an Iranian diplomat held hostage in Iraq and threatened with "punishment" by his captors. "Iran is holding the interim government solely responsible" for the safety of Fereydun Jahani, abducted on August 4, government spokesman Abdollah Ramezanzadeh told reporters. "We are following this matter, which we are taking very seriously," he added.
"An' youse guyz are gonna get it!"
A group calling itself The Islamic Army of Iraq has said it will "punish" Jahani if Iran does not release 500 Iraqis allegedly held since the Iran-Iraq war of 1980-88. Ramezanzadeh repeated that Iran had freed all its prisoners of war, adding, "this file is closed, Iran has said this many, many times and it has been confirmed by international organisations." The only problem, he said, was of soldiers who had been reported missing. The spokesman said Tehran also hoped to clear up the question of the arrest last week in Baghdad of the Iraq bureau chief of Iran's state news agency IRNA and two of his Iraqi staff.
He again denied allegations by Iraqi officials that Iran was interfering in Iraq's internal affairs, saying, "We want security, stability, calm and progress for Iraq because we consider that is also in our national interest and our aim is to help the Iraqi people."
And then his lips fell off.
Ramezanzadeh said the accusations came from former members of Iraq's ruling Baath party, toppled by US-led invading forces in April last year, and not from true representatives of the Iraqi people. Other Iraqi officials spoke a different language in their dealings with Tehran, he added. Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi distanced himself from the allegations spearheaded by Defence Minister Hazem al-Shaalan at the weekend in an interview with IRNA, saying he looked forward to constructive relations between the former foes. "We do not accuse the Iranian government of interference in Iraq's domestic affairs at the present time," the premier said. Shalaan has called Iran Iraq's "number one enemy", saying it was trying to "kill democracy" in his country by fomenting unrest and arming the rebel militiamen of radical Shiite leader Moqtada Sadr.
Let's keep an eye on his Shalaan guy, he could be a suitable PM if Allawi falters.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/16/2004 1:57:28 PM ||
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#1
Maybe some Iraqi "students" should invade the Iranian embassy and hold their diplomats hostage for say... 444 days? Think the black turbans would appreciate the irony?
#2
Ramezanzadeh repeated that Iran had freed all its prisoners of war, adding, "They are free from this mortal coil. We free them very soon after they were captured."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/16/2004 16:57 Comments ||
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Minister of Oil: The ministry intends to dig 2000 new oil wells through next year
Minister of oil Thamer Abbas Al-Ghdban declared that the ministry intends to dig 2000 oil wells [it isn't unusual to get 5,000 to 10,000 barrels/day out of a new well in this geological area; assuming only half the wells hit--- wow!]
and execute lines extensions of gas pipes of 3000 kilometers long inside Iraq, and he added that the development of standing oil fields and execution of these projects are within the ministry plan of year 2005.
The minister said that they have now 42 projects including extension of gas pipes are ready for investmentment....
Just keep the French, Russians and Chinese away from these and things should go smoothly. I think BP, Shell, and Mobil have plenty of expertise.
Saddam Hussein periodically removed guards on the Syrian border and replaced them with his own intelligence agents who supervised the movement of banned materials between the two countries, U.S. investigators have discovered. The recent discovery by the Bush administration's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) is fueling speculation, but is not proof, that the Iraqi dictator moved prohibited weapons of mass destruction (WMD) into Syria before the March 2003 invasion by a U.S.-led coalition.
Two defense sources told The Washington Times that the ISG has interviewed Iraqis who told of Saddam's system of dispatching his trusted Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) to the border, where they would send border inspectors away. The shift was followed by the movement of trucks in and out of Syria suspected of carrying materials banned by U.N. sanctions. Once the shipments were made, the agents would leave and the regular border guards would resume their posts. "If you leave it to border guards, then the border guards could stop the trucks and extract their 10 percent, just like the mob would do," said a Pentagon official who asked not to be named. "Saddam's family was controlling the black market, and it was a good opportunity for them to make money." Sources said Saddam and his family grew rich from this black market and personally dispatched his dreaded intelligence service to the border to make sure the shipments got through.
The ISG is a 1,400-member team organized by the Pentagon and CIA to hunt for Saddam's suspected stockpiles of WMD, such as chemical and biological agents. So far, the search has failed to find such stockpiles, which were the main reason for President Bush ordering the invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam.
But there is evidence of unusually heavy truck traffic into Syria in the days before the attack, and with it, speculation that some of the trucks contained the banned weapons. "Of course, it's always suspicious," the Pentagon official said. The source said the ISG has confirmed the practice of IIS agents going to the border. Investigators also have heard from Iraqi sources that this maneuver was done days before the war at a time of brisk cross-border movements. That particular part of the disclosures has not been positively confirmed, the officials said, although it dovetails with Saddam's system of switching guards at a time when contraband was shipped.
The United States spotted the heavy truck traffic via satellite imagery before the war. But spy cameras cannot look through truck canopies, and the ISG has not been able to determine whether any weapons were sent to Syria for hiding.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve ||
08/16/2004 11:51:07 AM ||
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A former aide to the Moroccan royal family who had been in a long-running feud with King Mohammed VI has been shot dead in Spain, possibly the victim of a professional hit.
When you care enough to hire the very best...
Spanish police announced at the weekend that the body of a man discovered in a private car park between Fuengirola and Mijas on the Costa del Sol was that of Hicham Mandari. He had been shot in the head. Mandari's death will not be much mourned in Rabat. He was considered a fraudster and a fantasist but was also close to the previous king, Hassan II, and there will be concern at what information any Spanish police investigation may uncover.
Yeah, right
In 1999, Mandari left Morocco after allegedly stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the royal family as King Hassan II lay dying. He then took out an advert in the Washington Post to warn the king: "For my defence, and the defence of those close to me, I have prepared a dossier of information which would be damaging to your reputation around the world."
The old "If I'm killed, the dossier will be released" ploy. That worked well, didn't it?
Since then Mandari had faced a string of fraud-related accusations but consistently managed to avoid conviction. In his last interview, Mandari again threatened the Moroccan royal family with damaging disclosures. He also claimed to be the illegitimate son of the current king's father and a palace aide, Farida Cherkaoui.
Farida, a sultry wench concubine aide, a comfort to the ailing king.
It is thought that Ms Cherkaoui facilitated Mandari's entry into palace circles and when it became clear that the king was dying, he conspired to make as much as he could while his influence remained. He found not just cash, but, he claimed, personal material that would have embarrassed the royal family. After the succession of King Hassan's son, Mohammed VI, rumours of Mandari's dossier surfaced regularly.
Perhaps Mohammed got tired of being threatened, or he found out who was holding the dossier and made him a offer.
In 2003, while possessing a handgun after two attempts on his life, he was arrested for attempting to blackmail Othman Benjelloun, the president of the Moroccan Bank of Foreign Commerce. He was released last July and gave his last interview to the Journal. Again he threatened the Moroccan king with damaging disclosures. And he talked of further scandal in France. "I know all the French ministers," he said. "I know Chirac very well. I called [the interior minister] Dominique de Villepin, but he had been told not to talk to me. I know lots of things about other politicians too."
Perhaps you should have kept your mouth shut about that.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/16/2004 11:35:35 AM ||
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CAMP KOREAN VILLAGE, Iraq(Aug. 16, 2004) -- Steering themselves from nearly two miles high to within less than 200 meters of their target, the Marine Corps' two newest skydivers made their first combat zone landing Aug. 9, 2004, near here.
The jumpers, however, are machines. Smart machines.
Programmed with the drop zone's coordinates, guided by the Global Positioning System, and maneuvered by motor-tugged lines, the Sherpa units each sat atop a pallet of rations for Marines here, riding them to Earth and ushering in the future of cargo delivery by air.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Tom ||
08/16/2004 13:21 Comments ||
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#6
Dropping Michael Moore would result in a similar ending as the attempts to airdrop tanks. At best, you could palletize him, and slide him off the ass end of a C-5A like they do the Sheriden.
EFL...
30 minutes ago [near as I can figure it this would be about 700am EDT today], Hussain Al-Sadr, a moderate cleric and at the same time Muqtada's cousin [I think 3rd cousin] attended the Iraqi National Conference after he news that he visited Najaf yesterday. The conference is having large coverage by Iraqi and Arab media (except poor Al Jazeera as they have no reporter on the ground)
In his words, Hussain stressed that there's no place for armed militias in the new Iraq but there's always a chance for everyone to participate in the political process.
He called Muqtada and his men to drop their weapons, leave the holy shrine and disband the Mehdi Army adding that guarantees can be provided by the government that there will be no consequences or penalties waiting for them after they evacuate the shrine.
He called the attendants to send a delegation of at least a hundred members to head to Najaf and tell Muqtada about this proposal and escort him out of the shrine.
There was immediately a vote and the majority agreed on this initiative, so it's expected that the following steps will take steps in a short time, probably later today.
the writer goes on to predict that Sadr will refuse to leave Najaf and a final battle will have to be waged anyway
Posted by: mhw ||
08/16/2004 8:32:30 AM ||
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#1
Tater would rather 'rule in hell' then 'serve in heaven'.......
#6
All this negotiating is just a big joke. There's no reason to treat a shrine or place of worship as out of bounds if the enemy is willing to use it to their advantage. At some point in time, if Sadr still wants to play his games, someone in the Iraqi gov't is going to have to send in the commandos to take Sadr and his henchmen out. Do anything less, and every Achmed, Saed, and Abdullah with a similar lust for power/influence will employ similar tactics, complicating matters more.
Hershel Shimonicher
Hometown: Brooklyn, NY Title: Hunger Strike BBQ
Comment: So the thing to do now, is in [a] few days, when the terrorists are good and hungry, get as close to the prisons as possible and cook hotdogs and steaks over charcoal. Let the smells waft into their cells and drive them crazy.
My kinda guy.
Posted by: Zenster ||
08/16/2004 4:51:04 AM ||
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#2
"As far as I'm concerned they can strike for a day, a month, until death. We will ward off this strike and it will be as if it never happened," Security Minister Tzahi Hanegbi said.
My kind of guy. To bad their won't be any pork ribs.
#3
They should at least crack a couple of beers to disgust these freaks in their moment of piety.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/16/2004 5:43 Comments ||
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#4
"To bad their won't be any pork ribs."
Yeah, but you can bet there'll be plenty of BBQ'd lamb. Devilishly tasty (at least in my opinion), and it stinks to high heaven.
It'll drive the Paleos stark, raving bugshit.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
08/16/2004 8:09 Comments ||
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#5
They're actually gonna do it! Pass the popcorn.
"Among the various methods we plan to employ is holding barbecues outside the walls of the affected prisons," a Prisons Service spokesman said, without giving a timetable.
#6
Go all the way, have the Pizza for the IDF guys open up a Kababs for the Prisoners site and then invite the top four teams in the Women's Volleyball playoffs to come back for a rematch outside the fences. It could be televised on Al-Jizz and probably make more than Athens.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/16/2004 10:51 Comments ||
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#7
Mrs. Davis, you're almost as wicked as your husband :-)
BBQ, beer, and babes playing volleyball: the prisoners will think they're already in Paradise. An AMERICAN Paradise!
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/16/2004 11:25 Comments ||
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#8
The hunger strike was praised by Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, who has for months cast himself as a virtual prisoner of Israel, confined to his West Bank compound. "The president ... hailed our heroes in Israeli jails for being steadfast," said a Palestinian government statement
Chairman Arafat was in a dinner meeting with his cabinet and unavailable for further comment
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/16/2004 11:52 Comments ||
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#9
I think I'm missing a fundamental part of this. They want these asshats to eat... why?
#10
Lets have them put some swine into adjacent cells and post a sign for all the prisoners to see. "Those who die emaciated shall be burried with the pigs." See how long this hunger strike continues.
BH and 2%, both of you may be unclear on the concept here. People merely want the Palestinian prisoners to suffer a bit more acutely from their self-induced hunger pangs. If these murderous thugs are going to pretend at having such high and mighty principles, then by all means hold them to it on the most grueling of terms. It's not as if they've ever shown any mercy to their victims.
And, yes David D., most definitely roast some whole spitted lambs, preferrably using a seasalt, cracked pepper, zatar and rosemary dry rub with a lemon juice, red wine, garlic and herb basting sauce. Use fans to waft the aroma of roasting meat directly into the prison yard and make sure these self-righteous b@stards get a good whiff of it around the clock.
Here's an excerpt to keep things in perspective:
The prisoners, who are expected to start the protest by August 18 at Nafha prison, are demanding public telephones in their cell blocks, the removal of glass separating them from visiting relatives, and an end to what they call "intrusive" body searches.
"I reject outright all the terrorists' requests," Hanegbi said Friday, claiming that the strike was being organized by Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. He was speaking during a press conference at the Public Security Ministry in Jerusalem after a meeting with national police chief Moshe Karadi and Prisons Service director Ya'akov Ganot to discuss possible scenarios ahead of the hunger strike, which is set to take place in 20 prisons across Israel.
Security sources and the Prisons Service intelligence service say the real motivation for the strike has nothing to do with the prisoners' demands. They argue that the prisoners are losing ground in the public consciousness of Palestinians, which is also manifested by significantly lower stipends being given to their families. What is certain is that the prisoners are threatening to extend their hunger strike in a dramatic fashion, some even hinting that they would be willing to in fact die of hunger, imitating inmates in Turkey and Northern Ireland.
It is still unclear whether the hunger strike will include female security prisoners, and it is certain that none of the teenage prisoners will be allowed to participate. In talks between prisoner representatives and prison officials, the Prisons Service's inclination has been to meet some of the prisoners' demands, such as limiting the number of prisoners who are not allowed to receive visitors. However, these do not include the main demands of the prisoners, which have been rejected due to security considerations.
The Prisons Service says that there is a great deal of coordination among the prisoners in the various prisons, including the preparation of terrorist attacks. "We have often found [during body searches] maps of the prisons or routes of buses carrying prisoners to court. The aim is clear: carry out a terrorist attack," officers at Shikma prison say. Officers also reject the prisoners' demand for telephones. They do not want the telephones to say hello to their families. "They intend to give orders for terrorist attacks," says the superintendent of the Shikma prison, Yosef Mikdash.
EMPHASIS ADDED
My oh my, donor fatigue seems to be setting in on all fronts and nobody gives a royal sh!t, not even their own families. Poor little turds picked the wrong time to get any sympathy. Prolonged malnutrition can have serious health consequences too. Depressed immune function, bone loss and impaired musclular reaction times all result from reduced nutrient uptake. I hope each and every one of these maggots shortens their respective lifespan by doing this. The sooner they are slingshot shuffle off this mortal coil, the better off our world will be.
#19
TGA, this Mystery Meat sure had a difference: it was utterly bland (probably a consequence of which parts of the salmon it was made from), a faintly orangish gray in color, and it jiggled. And it had... things in it.
It was truly revolting.
Regarding Economy Class, I remember the airline food they used to serve many years ago (1967 or thereabouts), when ticket prices here in the USA were still regulated and the airlines didn't have to cut corners because of cutthroat price competition. Back then, the food was excellent.
I don't fly anymore. I drive. My last vacation trip was 9,100 miles, and I loved every minute of it.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
08/16/2004 17:12 Comments ||
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#20
"Mystery Meat?" From your description, Dave, it sounds as though you're talking about sending Michael Moore to these prisons.... which might not be an entirely bad idea, now that I consider it.
#22
The strike is being organised by the three main Palestinian factions - Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah.
Memo to hunger strikers: When people who normally encourage murderers to kill themselves along with their victims are organizing your hunger strike, you may want to reconsider what sort of final outcome is intended for you.
One of the most well-known participants is Marwan Barghouti, who is currently serving five consecutive life sentences for murder.
As well as outdoor grills and the baking of extra bread and cakes in prison kitchens, the Israeli authorities have banned all family visits and restricted sales of sweets and cigarettes to prisoners.
EMPHASIS ADDED
Ahhh, the smell of baking bread has to be one of the most irresistable aromas there is. Those diabolically clever Israelis!
#24
"Hmmmm Dave, if you only saved some of that "meat" we could put it to good use now."
That was back in 1968, TGA. It was pretty rank back then when it was [allegedly] fresh, I hate to think what it would be like after 36 years in my refrigerator.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
08/16/2004 19:41 Comments ||
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#25
Expect a UNSC meeting about this tomorrow
But of course, TGA. They'll bat the idea around for hours over a 12 course haute cuisine dinner, and then agree upon a resolution that condemns the Israelis for cruel and inhuman punishment without making even a single passing reference to terrorism. Any questions?
I hate to think what it would be like after 36 years in my refrigerator.
#34
Rendezvous barbecue sauce--from the Memphis BBQ establishment of the same name--on chicken and beef.
Slow cooking over hickory charcoal.
Dutch apple pie.
Cinnamon donuts.
Ummm. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to....
This South Beach Diet does strange things to my head.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey ||
08/16/2004 22:55 Comments ||
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#35
Rendezvous barbecue sauce--from the Memphis BBQ establishment of the same name--on chicken and beef
If you have eaten Charlie Vergo's barbecue, you have had a taste of the hereafter. It was the first sampling of truly fine barbecue I ever had and serves as a gold standard by which to measure all others. My own dry rub pork ribs get rave reviews and are modeled closely upon Vergo's recipe and preparation methods.
[sound of hand slapping forehead] Cheez, why didn't I think of that?
Posted by: Fred ||
08/16/2004 00:28 ||
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#1
F*O*A*D
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
08/16/2004 3:13 Comments ||
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#2
Where is the incentive for Israel not to let them go to hell for the act of sucide without killing Kafir?
No 72 raisins. Empty Jails. It looks like win win win for Israel to let them sucide.....
Since hunger strikers usually have water and juices... Israel should only allow diet Tang as a juice. (Nothing but good clean chemicals... No food value.)
#13
It's getting to the point that whenever some stupid sh!t in the Palestinian Authority gets a wild hair up his or her @ss and makes some inane pronouncement like this, Israel should go in and tear up a mile or two worth of roadbed in one of the "refugee" camps.
This sort of ridiculous waste of everybody's time needs to come with a price tag attached. The rest of the Arab world uses resolution of Palestine's conflict with Israel as an excuse not to put their own houses in order and Palestine merely issues idiotic and unworkable demands to prolong the agony.
If it's agony they want, then it's agony they should get in the form of some visible cost for patently impedeing any real progress towards a working settlement of the crisis. Go ahead, make a bullheaded demand and watch some part of your people's world come crashing down around their heads.
Before anyone starts whingeing about "collective punishment" ... [crickets chirping] ... let me make note of how a majority of Palestinians support Hamas terror activities. Since Palestine as a collective whole wants the terror attacks to continue, they can also enjoy the results of their sh!theaded "leaders" obstructing all progress towards a peaceful settlement.
After enough roads and infrastructure got torn up don't you think the Palestinians would nail and glue a cork in the mouth of any f&%kwit stupid enough to demand some sort or another of their usual impossible bullsh!t?
#14
Zenster, You assume Qorei or Arafish (or Hamas) give a rats ass what happens to the Palistinian people. I think that is a false assumption.
I haven't seen any indication that any of the the alledged 'leaders' give a fat flying f*ck for the people on the ground except as cannon fodder and splosydopes.
#15
S'okay, CrazyFool. Let these "leaders" keep mouthing off at direct cost to the Palestinian people's welfare and see how long it takes for them to start flaying alive anyone who spouts off some sort of drivel like this. Plow up the roads, clog the sewers, whatever it takes to serve up these rectal cavities a tall cool foamy refreshing glass of STFU.
After a while, these unrealistic demands constitute nothing more than a slap in the face for all thinking people. I say, slap back.
#16
Zenster, I think CrazyFool is right, but you have a point too (hey, maybe I could be John Kerry #2 - nevermind...)
I've heard that a lot of the Palestinian bigwhigs have nice mansions out there - built on the back of large 'contracts'.
How's about this - the next time the Israelis have to start up a D9, just point it at one of *those* houses, instead of those PoS hovels we see them demolishing.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
08/16/2004 18:12 Comments ||
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#17
How's about this - the next time the Israelis have to start up a D9, just point it at one of *those* houses, instead of those PoS hovels we see them demolishing.
The shadow of evil is looming over Najaf as U.S. forces backed by the interim government resumed their attack on the city on Sunday and repeatedly desecrated the holy shrine of Imam Ali (AS), the first Imam of Shiite Muslims. It is surprising that these attacks have been approved and supported by the Iraqi interim government. A brief look at recent developments in Iraq shows that the U.S. animosity towards Shiites becomes more evident day by day.
Not toward Shiites. Toward Tater.
You mean they're not one and the same?
Such cruelties against Shiites were committed under Saddam Hussein, the toppled Iraqi dictator. The U.S. and its lackey within the interim government should know that the sentiments of Shiites are like gunpowder that, if torched, will burn everything.
Oh, the seething will commence, just you wait.
Mortar and tank blasts, punctuated by machine-gun fire, reverberated across Najaf's historic heart just a day after the interim government vowed to return to the offensive against the militiamen of leader Moqtada Sadr. Truce talks broke down between the Iraqi government and the militia, provoking an outcry at a national conference held in Baghdad. Smoke rose from the direction of the city's vast cemetery, north of the holy shrine of Imam Ali (AS), which has been a militia stronghold since a spring uprising against foreign troops. An AFP correspondent saw U.S. tanks parked 200 meters (yards) from the shrine with armed U.S. marines heading towards the Old City. Earlier, the police chief ordered journalists to leave Najaf while militia commanders vowed to resist any new U.S.-led onslaught. "I received orders from the interior minister who demands that all local, Arab and foreign journalists leave the hotel and city within two hours," General Ghaleb al-Jazairi told reporters at 10:00 am.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/16/2004 12:19:08 AM ||
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#3
the sentiments of Shiites are like gunpowder that, if torched, will burn everything
I'm sure this was meant as a form of bravado, to show how valiant and dangerous Tater's gang can be. But this just shows how stupid they really are: burn everything rather than rebuild your country. Nice mentality.
Posted by: Rafael ||
08/16/2004 2:01 Comments ||
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#9
The U.S. and its lackey within the interim government should know that the sentiments of Shiites are like gunpowder that, if torched, will burn everything.
Fire can be put out two ways: dousing it with enough water, or depriving it of oxygen. Which method do you choose for your fires to be extinguished? Either way isn't going to be pleasant.
Vision One: With explosions outside rattling the windows, some 1,300 Iraqi delegates gathered Sunday in a Baghdad convention center for a three-day conference intended to resume the nation's fitful march toward a secular democracy. Vision Two: At the same time, some 85 miles to the south, Shiite militiamen in Najaf fought to defend cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who envisions a nation run similarly to the theocracy of neighboring Iran.
Consultation of crystal balls, tea leaves, goat entrails to be:
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
08/16/2004 12:09:00 AM ||
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#1
But few outside observers consider this a representative gathering of the Iraqi people. Key players such as Mr. Sadr and the Muslim Clerics Association, an influential grouping of Sunni religious leaders, have boycotted the conference.
Gosh...good reporting! Mr. Sadar has 'BOYCOTTED' the conference.....
MM has so trashed their reputation that their spin is becoming funnier than their funny papers!
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
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