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2005-01-21 Home Front: Politix

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Posted by Dcreeper 2005-01-21 4:34:10 AM|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Decreeper - listen to yourself!

stay oppressed fools! How dare you intrude upon my conscience.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-21 8:02:35 AM|| 2005-01-21 8:02:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 So.. am I the only one that winced when he read the speech?

I'm sure more than a few turbans had a case of the vapors..

Posted by Steve 2005-01-21 8:22:30 AM|| 2005-01-21 8:22:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Dcreeper, Agree. See Peggy Noonan's comments also.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-21 8:30:54 AM|| 2005-01-21 8:30:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 What the hell are we going to do if people all over the world jump up and shout "Damn right! FREEDOM NOW!"

In actual fact its most unlikely they will all do so everywhere at the same time. Its not all that easy getting something like that put together. In any case he promised to be at their side, NOT to send in the Marines. Of course in most cases, when you get a widespread uprising like that, you dont NEED to send in the Marines. The history of people power revolutions, from the Phillipines, to South Korea, to East Germany and Czechoslovakia, to Romania, to Georgia and Ukraine, is how reluctant security forces are to fire on their own people when they people rise in sufficient numbers against a govt that is discredited, and have international support. When the security forces DO fight back, as in Romania, they quickly find themselves divided.

Their are of course tragic failures, as in China - there the students got out ahead of the rest of the society, and even at that the forces of reaction only barely won.

Steve is right - theres got to be concern in Iran and Syria - and also in North Korea and Burma - and ALSO in Egypt and KSA and Uzbekistan - as there should be - think about it - most ordinary Iranians love the USA, while most ordinary Egyptians hate us -is the Koran somehow more antiinfidel in Cairo than in Teheran? Are the Egyptians really more concerned about the Pals than the Iranians are? I dont think so. The difference is that Iranians see us has opposing their tyranny, while Egyptians see us as supporting theirs.

And another thing - we have to think not only of ourselves, but of our children and grandchildren. in 50, or maybe 70 years, we are likely NOT to be the only superpower. China and India will likely be our equals - IF we do relatively well. Otherwise they will pass our power. IF we reach that era with a China that is still a paranoid dictatorship, and, when we look for allies, are seen as a nation whose only goal had been our own security, we will face a return to world where life is "nasty, brutish, and short". We will have lost the promise of the American Century. If our legacy is a democratic world, and a US at the center of democratic alliances, we will have assured a better world, even as our dominant power recedes.

We must not fail. Hail Dubya!

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-21 9:27:36 AM|| 2005-01-21 9:27:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 What LH said. Bravo.

Posted by lex 2005-01-21 9:40:09 AM|| 2005-01-21 9:40:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm saving that one for future clueing in moonbats.

Thank you.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-21 10:02:31 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:02:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 And frankly, w/some of the smaller countries, we don't even need the marines. They might just need some weapons and guidance.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-21 10:06:07 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:06:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Faster, please.

Posted by lex 2005-01-21 12:27:45 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:27:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Amen, Lh.

I am astonished by some of the commentary. And honestly sincerely saddened.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 12:39:12 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:39:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I am beting if we gave some aid and support to Iranian dissenters, they would be able to topple the mullahs all by themselves. I haven't lived there but there are few countries that don't experience 'buyers remorse' once they lived a few years under tyranny (Islam or otherwise). Look what happend in Romainia, Poland, East Germany, and most of Central/South America. once the ball got rolling.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-01-21 1:04:31 PM|| 2005-01-21 1:04:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I admire Noonan and have read her books. But she is dead wrong, and, in large measure, conflicted.

Peggy is and has been one of the most vocal people about waging the battle of ideas in the war on terror.

Try this one out Peg:

You have a unnamed country ran by a despotic tyrant who oppresses his people. Here are the two alternatives for the oppressed:

1. Jump on the Jihad bandwagon, as espoused by Bin Laden et al, or

2. Take a stand for freedom and liberty, knowing that the US (and presumably other democratic countries) will stand with you. For example, the Orange Revolution.

So, why this and why now? Because we are engaged in a global war, whether we want to recognize it or not. Terrorism has come to our shores.

This is where the battle line is drawn. President Bush knows how the Euros react, he presented much the same concepts when the G8 met last summer.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 1:07:54 PM|| 2005-01-21 1:07:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Long past time we framed this conflict in terms of a larger democratic struggle against the forces of fascism. This is clearly the nature of Phase II of the Iraq War, which is now underway: Iraqi democrats of all confessions/ethnicities vs Iraqi and Syrian, Saudi, Jordianian, Egyptian etc fascists. We need to link any EU3 discussions with Iran -- I won't say "progress" because they've yielded nothing substantive so far and show no signs of doing so if continued in this vein-- to real democratiuc reform in that country.

Posted by lex 2005-01-21 1:12:37 PM|| 2005-01-21 1:12:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Damn straight, LH!

I can't help but wonder if Bush's message was first and foremost directed at the Iranian people.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2005-01-21 6:48:11 PM|| 2005-01-21 6:48:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "The acme of skill is not to win a hundred victories in a hundred battles, but to win a hundred victories without fighting."
- Sun Tzu, Bing Fa

Posted by Dishman 2005-01-21 7:33:14 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Barbara and LH - good speculation. We do not want to invade Iran, by any means, and would depend on an internal overthrow with our ~~well placed missiles~~ aid....

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:36:46 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:36:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 hey! I got 15 comments on my first post! *puffs up proudly*
it made for an inspirational speech and I hope it made various mullahs twitch.. but I was watching the news a bit nervously today :-p
agree with you mostly LH, though you make the assumption that freedom-seeking groups that could have risen up don't already exist in these nations.. I think that's a bit hasty.. though it's a bit of a moot point now since nothing happened :-p

though I think maybe I did not word myself well enough (2b), I LIKE promoting freedom.. I just think he could have worded that a little better..a little less "we will stand with you" and a little more "fight for your freedom"...

something like "You are not alone in your desire for freedom.." then maybe bring up past success stories..

it could have been a disaster.. wasn't.. but could have been... so I winced in pain when I read that :-p

Posted by Dcreeper 2005-01-21 8:50:19 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:50:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Umm, I dunno. Liberalhawk, I was reading the Times' scoop on the Orange Revolution, and the revelation:

"Freedom wasn't attained by the desire of the people and international support -- it was by the men with the guns deciding to side against the oppressors."

The opposite happening in China was why the Tiananmen Square crackdown happened ...

Posted by Edward Yee 2005-01-21 10:54:41 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2005-01-21 10:54:41 PM|| Front Page Top

23:51 Dishman
23:51 Zhang Fei
23:48 .com
23:46 CrazyFool
23:45 Sobiesky
23:44 .com
23:33 Cyber Sarge
23:31 Alaska Paul
23:30 Ptah
23:30 eLarson
23:30 .com
23:27 Captain America
23:21 Desert Blondie
23:18 Atomic Conspiracy
23:14 Grunter
23:11 Alaska Paul
23:06 Dishman
23:06 Hupereger Clish6229 aka Jarhead
23:04 Dishman
23:02 Mike
22:54 Edward Yee
22:45 Hupereger Clish6229 aka Jarhead
22:45 lex
22:43 Alaska Paul