Hajj pilgrims pelted stones at symbols of the devil on Friday, with many saying they were targeting U.S. President George W. Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims.
Last year, 250 people were crushed to death at Mena's Jamarat Bridge, but so far new measures by the Saudi authorities have averted any stampedes.
This year, more than 2.5 million Muslims streamed into the area for the stoning, meant as an act of purification and rejection of temptation.
Many pilgrims said they were thinking of Bush and his allies while they were hurling pebbles at the site where the devil is said to have appeared to the biblical patriarch Abraham.
"Yes, the devil is Bush and that other one from Israel -- (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon. And there's (British Prime Minister) Blair too," said Egyptian Tia'amah Mohammed.
"We throw the stones so we can vent our anger at them."
Many Muslims revile Bush for his perceived bias towards Israel and the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Anger at Sharon also runs deep over Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and Jerusalem, the site of one of Islam's holiest shrines.
"During the stoning I couldn't help thinking of Bush, Blair and Sharon," said British Muslim activist Yvonne Ridley.
Saudi Arabia, facing a storm of criticism, revamped the Jamarat area, expanding the stoning targets and deploying thousands of security forces to control the crowd.
They also replaced the three pillars the pilgrims stone with thick walls providing a larger target to prevent the crush that normally occurs at the site.
Graffiti denouncing Bush had daubed the pillars. The new walls have so far remained clean.
Other pilgrims said politics did not cross their minds. "This is all about God, and that's all I was thinking about when I threw the stones," Yemeni Ali al-Suweiny said.
Pilgrims, in white robes meant to eradicate differences in race and class between Muslims, have poured into the Jamarat area since Thursday, the first day of the stoning ritual and the start of the Eid al-Adha feast.
Most pilgrims will finish by Friday -- the penultimate day of the Hajj -- and then go to Mecca to circle the Kaaba, which symbolizes the house of God, for the final time.
"Thank God, we have not witnessed anything unusual or any accidents or deaths so far during the stoning," Brigadier Mansour al-Turki told reporters. "We hope the improvements will continue to keep the pilgrims safe."
This year's pilgrimage, a once-in-a-lifetime duty for every able-bodied Muslim, has been overshadowed by the Asian tsunami disaster and the threat of al Qaeda-linked violence in the kingdom, which has been battling the group for nearly two years.
On Thursday, a leading Saudi cleric warned Muslims against waging terror attacks in the name of Islam. The Hajj was first performed by Islam's Prophet Mohammad 1,400 years ago.
EFL.Guess they didn't like the speech either. Lay the "Hook 'em Horns!" sign on them, Dubya.
MENA, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) - Haj pilgrims pelted stones at symbols of the devil on Friday, with many saying they were targeting President Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims. Christ, that's like... all of them.
Many pilgrims said they were thinking of Bush and his allies while they were hurling pebbles at the site where the devil is said to have appeared to the biblical patriarch Abraham.
"Yes, the devil is Bush and that other one from Israel -- (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon. And there's (British Prime Minister) Blair too," said Egyptian Tia'amah Mohammed. ...and Chirac for not letting us wear the head thingy's and the Spanish guy for not letting us blow up trains and...
"We throw the stones so we can vent our anger at them." There aren't that many stones on the planet.
Many Muslims revile Bush for his perceived bias toward Israel and the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Anger at Sharon also runs deep over Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and Jerusalem, the site of one of Islam's holiest shrines. Just one?
British journalist Yvonne Ridley, who converted to Islam following her capture by the Taliban in 2001 in the buildup to the Afghan war, said: "During the stoning I couldn't help thinking of Bush, Blair and Sharon." Yvonne, you whackjob bitch! Where have you been?
Syrian Ibrahim Hussein added: "I was throwing stones at the devil because through that we cleanse ourselves of sin. When throwing the stones you shouldn't be thinking of political issues, or Bush and Sharon -- that's for our prayers (against them)." If I was Syrian these days, I'd be praying...a lot. SAFE STONING Read this helpful manual, "So You're Going To Stone The Pillars".When you stone, stone safely.
Saudi Arabia, facing a storm of criticism, revamped the Jamarat area, expanding the stoning targets and deploying thousands of security forces to control the crowd. They also replaced the three pillars the pilgrims stone with thick walls providing a larger target to prevent the crush that normally occurs at the site. Step right up and stone the Pillars! Ten tosses for a buck! Win a swell prize! Smite the infidel! Step right up!
Graffiti denouncing Bush had daubed the pillars. The new walls have so far remained clean. So far. The frat boys from Saudi State will probably sneak in tonight.
"Thank God, we have not witnessed anything unusual or any accidents or deaths so far during the stoning," Brigadier Mansour al-Turki told reporters. "We hope the improvements will continue to keep the pilgrims safe." There goes my stampede bet.
As millions of faithful marked Eid Al-Adha yesterday, Muslims were warned against heeding militant calls to wage terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. The warning came, amid a surge in militant attacks in Muslim countries and beyond, from Sheikh Abdulrahman Al-Sudais, imam of the Grand Mosque in Makkah, while addressing Haj pilgrims in a customary Eid sermon. The imam also advised Islamic scholars to preach moderation to confront this "rotten" phenomenon.
"Islam is the religion of moderation. There is no room for extremism in Islam," he said. He called on Muslims to "protect non-Muslims in the Kingdom and not to attack them in the country or anywhere. Islam is a religion of peace that abhors attack on innocents." Militants were using misguided interpretations of Islam to justify violence, he added.
"Because Muslims have strayed from moderation, we are now suffering from this dangerous phenomenon of branding people infidels and inciting Muslims to rise against their leaders to cause instability," Al-Sudais said. "The reason for this is a delinquent and void interpretation of Islam based on ignorance ... faith does not mean killing Muslims or non-Muslims who live among us, it does not mean shedding blood, terrorizing or sending body parts flying."
Al-Sudais warned that extremism would ruin the Muslim nation, adding: "This phenomenon has expanded so much that scholars must confront it with concrete proof from Islam to protect our youth from its stench and rottenness." He added: "One of the main issues that needs to be tackled in principle is reform". He criticized dissident Saad Al-Faqeeh who is calling to rebel against the government in order to create disunity among the people. He described him as a reckless adventurer who is obsessed with publicity.
As Al-Sudais spoke, Saudi security forces were hunting for three suspected Al-Qaeda militants who tried to blow up a mosque in the Kingdom, Al-Riyadh newspaper reported. The three were spotted before dawn prayers in a mosque on the Riyadh-Taif road but fled before security forces arrived. Al-Riyadh said the men were members of the "deviant group," the term used by authorities to describe members of Al-Qaeda network.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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Interesting but I think this guy has a death wish.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 0:27 Comments ||
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"Al-Sudais warned that extremism would ruin the Muslim nation..."
Ah, a ray of sunshine. Little rays, teeny tiny little rays-- but they're a damn sight better than nothing at all.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 0:33 Comments ||
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#3
this is all about protecting the "royal" family from the "deviants"--killing kufrs is a life long obligation
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
01/21/2005 3:15 Comments ||
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#6
Don't get too excited. As pointed out over at Jihad Watch, there's a condition on all this:
faith does not mean killing Muslims or non-Muslims who live among us
Spencer interprets that to mean the dhimmi, not us run-of-the-mill kaffir.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 10:25 Comments ||
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#7
looks like Pavarotti under a sheet and dish towel. Hope he can sing
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 10:45 Comments ||
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#8
tu3031 wrote Is it just me, or are all these "holy men" as big as friggin houses?
Indeed, it seems that many of them have the unmistakable signs of overindulgence.
Does this mean that practicing Islam makes you more saintly but also more hungry ??
#11
There's no jaw-dropper. I doubt he even said it -- I think they have a 78 rpm record they play once or twice a year, when there's a chance the infidels are listening.
And he is the approximate size and shape of a modestly priced Cape Cod, isn't he? Zakat makes sure no holy men go hungry...
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 15:12 Comments ||
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Some samples for your enjoyment:
The liberal Guardian summed up the concern in a commentary under the headline "Fireworks in Washington, despair around the world." It compared the massive fireworks display used in the inauguration celebration to the ordnance US "occupation forces" would expend in Iraq in 24 hours. Bitter, no? Maybe you shouldn't try to interfere in our internal politics next time, bub.
"The president and his speechwriters have yet to confront the tension between their rhetoric about freedom, which is universally popular, and their practice of projecting US firepower, which is resented in equal measure," it said. "That explains why, on the very day when the president set forward his mission to bring liberty to the world, a poll revealed that a large majority of its inhabitants believe that he will actually make it more dangerous," it said. Blah, blah, blah. Etc, etc, etc
Posted by: Secret Master ||
01/21/2005 11:39:33 AM ||
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OK, Al-Grauniad, tell us whether you support bringing liberty to the world. Or whether your version of "progressive" politics is really nothing more than objectively pro-fascist reaction.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/21/2005 14:09 Comments ||
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British newspapers fret, period.
Wotta buncha maroons.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/21/2005 14:15 Comments ||
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#6
Oops.
Editors, can you delete the second one? Don't know how that happened.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/21/2005 14:16 Comments ||
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#7
"The president and his speechwriters have yet to confront the tension between their rhetoric about freedom, which is universally popular, and their practice of projecting US firepower, which is resented in equal measure," it said.
Still upset we saved them from the Nazis, I see.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 14:16 Comments ||
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An Army captain was arrested Friday on charges of maltreating trainees, the Army said. The 28-year-old company commander, identified by his family name Lee, allegedly forced 192 conscripts to eat human feces as a disciplinary measure because some of the toilets in his boot camp had not been flushed. Lee is in charge of training recruits at the camp in Nonsan, 200 kilometers south of Seoul. On Jan. 10, Lee asked the draftees to pick up and taste feces, and about half of them followed the order, witnesses said. The soldiers were in their fifth week of a six-week training period. The incident was reported 10 days later when one of the conscripts sent a letter to his friends.
Yoon Kwang-ung, minister of national defense, apologized to the people for the case, vowing to conduct thorough investigation of those responsible for the case and look into other military training camps across the country. ``I¡¯m deeply sorry for the intolerable incident and apologize to the people and families of the conscripts for it," Yoon said in a statement. A special investigation team will be set up to inspect 36 boot camps in the country, Army officers said. Meanwhile, the National Human Rights Commission of Korea said it would launch a probe into the case since it infringed on human rights. The commission said it already dispatched three investigators to the Nonsan training camp. ``We will thoroughly investigate not only this case, but also other possible similar cases in boot camps," a spokesman for the commission said.
Posted by: tipper ||
01/21/2005 9:34:45 AM ||
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#6
I wonder what the commander thought about his imaginative punishment when all those who'd followed orders ended up with dysentary and other messy diseases?
#8
I almost instantly knew this was either the Russian or South Korean Army. The SK forces still use corporal punishment as a way to maintain discipline in the ranks. One night on duty I noticed one of the SK troops had dosed off and I shared that info with my fellow GIs. A SK Captain overheard our laughter and saw the troop snoozing away. He beat the snot out of him right in front of us. He was a draftee (all were) and that type of punishment is very common. I think the feces festival was way out of line, but I bet it wasnât the first time it happened. I don't think Soju would do the trick, I think this calls for a combat bottle of OB.
#9
Wipe that shit-eating grin off your face, private!
Posted by: Dar ||
01/21/2005 15:03 Comments ||
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#10
Wow, it would have really hit the fan if these had been captured Mohammedan terrorists rather than conscripts serving their country. Jimmy Carter must be relieved.
#11
The Captain probably just didn't have that many pairs of panties handy. See what kind of shit you can get into when you don't have the right equipment?
THE identity of Australians could be subjected to unprecedented scrutiny under the biggest security protection plan since the failed Australia Card. Federal cabinet will soon see a proposal for a national "document verification service" designed to combat identity-related crimes ranging from welfare fraud to terrorism. It would give federal and state government agencies and key businesses the right to verify the identity of clients by cross-checking birth certificates, drivers' licences and passports through a central data exchange hub. The Attorney-General's Department is finalising the proposal for the online system. Airlines, banks and other businesses vulnerable to welfare fraud or terrorism are keen to be part of the project.
The introduction of new-generation passports - with so-called biometric data including fingerprints or facial features - means the system could have extraordinary reach over the coming years. The scheme has the same identification security goals as the Hawke government's politically unpalatable Australia Card proposal in 1987. But unlike the previous proposal, the Government is opposing a single number to identify every Australian. Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said the Government had misgivings about any national identity regime based on a single identifier and was instead looking at the technical and legal implications of setting up a document verification service.
Mr Ruddock said the Government believed its DVS proposal would be more effective than an Australia Card-like single number identifier. "The initial feasibility work (on the DVS) has been completed and the participating agencies are at the point where further proposals are being developed for government, including a proof-of-concept trial," he said. But Australian Privacy Foundation chairwoman Anna Johnston said while the absence of a single number was welcome, advances in computer technology since 1987 raised serious concerns. Ms Johnston said the public would reject any plan to relax privacy legislation to allow for the identity regime, warning that improvements in computer technology meant legislative protection was more important than ever. She called for an independent privacy impact assessment before any pilot. "When the Privacy Act was first drafted in the eighties, technology was in a very different state," Ms Johnston said. "You can't rely on the inefficiencies of collating data to protect people anymore - you have to rely on privacy law." The verification system proposal is expected to be put to cabinet within months.
Posted by: God Save The World ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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Laws like this should have a little mandatory rider added to them. A modest payment of, say, $50,000 to each and every person whose personal data is stolen from that system, or misused in any way--taken from the *budget* of the system itself.
THE Australian Government had no plans to shackle Mamdouh Habib on his flight home from Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, it said today. However, Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said it was possible in certain circumstances that the captain of any aircraft bringing the former US detainee back to Australia could decide to restrain him for safety reasons. The Washington Post reported US authorities had asked Australian officials to ensure Mr Habib, whose release without charge was announced on January 11, would be shackled to prevent him from leaving the plane during refuelling stops. Mr Habib's Australian lawyer, Stephen Hopper, said the proposal was ridiculous.
The Australian citizen has been held in detention for more than three years without charge, on suspicion he knew about the September 11 terrorist attacks and trained with al-Qaeda. Mr Ruddock said he was unaware of the American demands and did not have any plans to have Mr Habib restrained on the return journey. "We have no plans for him to be restrained," Mr Ruddock said. "But I simply say any decision of that sort would be made involving the captain of an aircraft and would depend upon the circumstance. I can't dismiss the possibility that in certain circumstances there may be a need for restraint, but that is not part of our planning."
Mr Ruddock said US authorities routinely used restraints when transporting "people of concern" to protect the safety of the aircraft. He said Australia had agreed not to use US airspace to transport Mr Habib. "We can't (transport Mr Habib) through the United States," he said. "That is a demand that they have made so we have to make appropriate arrangements for his return to Australia." Mr Ruddock said Mr Habib would be returned within weeks, not months, on a non-commercial flight. He said a commercial flight presented a number of risks.
Posted by: God Save The World ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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THE Howard Government was under pressure last night to fast-track moving our Iraq embassy away from being a terrorist target into the relative safety of Baghdad's Green Zone. Just a day after al-Qaeda terrorists exploded a huge car bomb outside the embassy gates, injuring two Australian soldiers, the Government admitted it proposed two years ago to move the mission but nothing has happened. Concern is growing in the Government and Opposition that the embassy's location is placing our troops and diplomats at risk of further attacks. Wednesday's bomb blast was the second in recent months and killed two Iraqis.
Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq yesterday boasted that Australians there were now targets for their terror strikes. The Daily Telegraph can reveal that in Wednesday's explosion, Warrant Officer David Thompson was one of two Australian soldiers who suffered minor shrapnel wounds to his face and neck. WO Thompson had been in Iraq just a few weeks when terrorists rammed a truck packed with explosives into the soldiers' barracks he now calls home, directly across from the Australian Embassy. Like more than 100 other Australian soldiers at the barracks, WO Thompson was preparing to start the day when the truck detonated just after 7am on Wednesday, shattering windows at the nearby embassy and filling the sky with shrapnel. WO Thompson, 35, told his superiors he had no intention of returning home and vowed to stay and do his job, protecting embassy staff from future terrorist attacks. He then called home in Australia, telling his wife, Vanessa, he was safe and eager to resume his post.
The Government admitted yesterday that Iraq's dire security situation had delayed the embassy being moved several kilometres to the secure precinct known as the Green Zone. Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said the Government decided in May 2003 to move the embassy from its location in a busy Baghdad shopping precinct to the Green Zone. Opposition defence spokesman Robert McClelland said the Government must fast-track the relocation of the embassy and give details of any threats to other embassies around the world. "Quite clearly if we can get the embassy to a safer location and those protective troops stationed around the embassy, clearly we're going to reduce the risk of further attacks," he said. "The Government should be moving the Australian Embassy in a matter of weeks, not months." But Mr Ruddock said the Government was working as fast as possible to relocate the mission, but poor infrastructure and security concerns were hampering its efforts. "We are trying to get it in place as soon as possible," Mr Ruddock said. "It should be completed during the course of this year. But the security environment and relevant infrastructure, of course, make undertaking work of that sort quite challenging for those who are engaged." The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade said it hoped the move would take place sometime this year. Mr Ruddock said it was important diplomatic staff remained in Iraq in the lead-up to the elections on January 30.
Posted by: God Save The World ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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A Danish army intelligence officer and four military police sergeants have been charged with mistreating Iraqi prisoners in southern Iraq last year. Captain Annemette Hommel was charged with four counts of negligence while on duty in March, April and June 2004. All five are accused of verbal abuse of detainees, denying them food and water, and forcing them to kneel in discomfort during interrogation.
Oh, be still my bleeding heart!
Denmark has about 500 troops in southern Iraq, near Basra. No date has been set for a trial. The defendants could face a year in jail if found guilty. Capt Hommel, 37, who was ordered to return home from Iraq before her tour of duty ended, said she had done nothing wrong. Last year, she said the allegations stemmed from a misunderstanding with the Palestinian translators working at the camp, who had objected to her interrogation techniques.
Being a infidel woman and all
Jesper Helsoe, commander of the Danish armed forces, told Danish radio on Friday: "I will be the first person to apologise if the military has made mistakes, but the trial now has to take place. No one has been convicted yet." Correspondents say the scandal shocked many in Denmark, where most people support their government's backing of the US-led coalition in Iraq.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/21/2005 9:15:21 AM ||
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Article: Last year, she said the allegations stemmed from a misunderstanding with the Palestinian translators working at the camp, who had objected to her interrogation techniques.
These guys are using enemy civilians to help them interrogate people. You gotta love Euro-style political correctness. Meanwhile, the military wing of these enemy civilians kill "collaborators" by torturing them to death and dumping their bodies on trash heaps.
THE European Parliament is to establish a "rapid reaction force" to address what it considers to be unfair criticism of the European constitution in any EU member state.
They can't mount a Rapid Reaction Force to combat terrorism, however.
The move has angered opponents of the proposed constitition, who say that the rapid reaction force is made up entirely of MEPs who support the constitition but is funded by taxpayers' money. One leading Eurosceptic MEP said that the move was reminiscent of totalitarianism. Jens Peter Bonde, a Danish Eurosceptic MEP, said: "It is a good idea to have a rapid reaction force, but you must have both sides to clear up real misunderstandings. You can't have a rapid reaction force with taxpayers' money and represent only one view — it's a totalitarian tendency."
As part of a campaign by Brussels, to combat Euroscepticism in the Union in time for a wave of referendums on the constitution, the Parliament has told its representative office in each country to monitor the press and note unfair criticism. MEPs will then be asked to write letters to the newspapers to put the record straight. The European Parliament is also sending delegations consisting of only pro-constitution MEPs to parliaments in London and Paris, and last week spent â¬375,000 (£260,000) on a pro-constitution rally in Strasbourg.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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WTF is "Euroscepticism"? The opposite of Eurocredulousness? Of Eurogullibility?
In my spare moments I've been reading the EU Constitution; at 250+ pages it is, as Rumsfeld once said of our mission in Iraq, a "long, hard slog".
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 0:44 Comments ||
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#2
Didn't Saddam get voted into office with 99.9% of the vote by using this tactic?
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 0:44 Comments ||
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#3
Euroskeptics are those who don't lick the Brussels Boot.
#7
You will keep voting until you are broke or it passes. That's Brussel's intent in the meaning of demoracy. Demoracy comes from the enlightened top downwards. Do as we say not as we do, shut up, or pay the penalties.
#10
Nope. "It is those who don't eat the Brusssels sprouts".
It fills me with shame to admit something like this in public, but here goes: I... I actually like Brussels sprouts.
There. I did it. That wasn't so bad...
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 9:34 Comments ||
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#11
Jesus, guys. You're just ASKING for trouble in this thread.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 9:34 Comments ||
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#12
I actually like Brussels sprouts.
Just stay right where you are, Dave. Someone will be by shortly to have a "talk" with you about this
Posted by: Steve ||
01/21/2005 9:46 Comments ||
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#13
Time for a little twelve-step-ism:
"Hi, I'm Dave, and I like Brussels sprouts."
"Hi, Dave."
Posted by: Mike ||
01/21/2005 9:49 Comments ||
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#14
"Just stay right where you are, Dave."
I'm not going anywhere, just sitting here enjoying my broccoli...
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 10:03 Comments ||
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#15
Mmmmm, Brussels sprouts...I like them, too. Fresh and lightly steamed, drenched in a little melted butter, and gently tossed with fresh-ground pepper, a little crumbled bacon and toasted bread crumbs...
#17
Luckily this thread has gone vegetable. I was afraid all the enlightened "Euro" crap was going to draw in He Who Can't Be Named.
This "Rapid Reaction Force" reminds me of last year when our local school district wanted to build a new high school for $92 million rather than renovate the existing school for a fraction of that. Their plan was ultimately soundly defeated by referendum, but not before the school district bureaucrats spent a ton of public money on advertising to promote their position. For some reason, the bureaucrats felt entitled to spend public money to lobby against obvious public opinion. They should be fired for it.
Same with the Euros: they should spend money to educate the public on what the choice really is, but not to promote one decision over the other.
Oh, and I like Brussels sprouts and broccoli. Greek food too.
Posted by: Tom ||
01/21/2005 10:23 Comments ||
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#18
The Euros need to check with the DNC on "How To Get Our Message Through The Thick Heads Of Stupid Voters, Who Are Basically Too Dumb To Know What's Good For Them."
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 10:41 Comments ||
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#20
a "pre-emptive ignore"
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 10:41 Comments ||
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#21
This pretty unbelievable. In between all their shouts of "Bush is Nazi", do these idiot really not see what they are turning into with stuff like this?
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
01/21/2005 10:43 Comments ||
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#22
"do these idiot really not see what they are turning into with stuff like this?"
Yes, we do actually, much better than y'all presume to do.
Filing this whole thread under "and you say that *I* should stop talking about America??"
---
WTF is "Euroscepticism"?
Don't you like the term? On my part, I think it way too complimentary indeed -- on the other it seems that several Eurosceptics themselves don't like it. Probably because skepsis is a concept that offends them even more than gnosis does.
#23
Tom: Greek food -- mmmm. It could taste horrible for all I know, but eating Greek food always seemed to entail drinking Retsina, so I felt great about everything. Maybe we should convert this from a vegetable thread to a potent alcohol thread.
Posted by: Jonathan ||
01/21/2005 11:24 Comments ||
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#24
No need to think for yourself, the Euros "know" what's good for you.
Let's see, what is the definition of propaganda?
Answer: A specific type of message presention, aimed at serving an agenda. Yep, Chairman Mao would be proud of the Euros.
"Ideological education is the key link to be grasped in uniting the whole Party for great political struggles. Unless this is done, the Party cannot accomplish any of its political tasks."
"On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. III, p. 315.*
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 11:52 Comments ||
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#25
Attention Aris: Rantburg will be sending a delegation over to pay you a visit until your ideological education is complete.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 11:55 Comments ||
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#26
Ptah: I figure it slightly higher than 80%, say 85%.
#27
Rantburg will be sending a delegation over to pay you a visit until your ideological education is complete.
LOL Cap'n! And you'll be paying their board and lodgings, Aris. You are reminded that the delegates have refined tastes. They will be paying you repeat visits until you acquiesce to their wishes.
"The European Commission has set up a special âcommunications strategy committeeâ and is promoting a website [I think that's this effort - definitely one to bookmark, Aris] to rebut âEuromythsâ spread by the British press in the hope of winning the propaganda battle over the next two years.
Eurosceptic MEPs complain that many of the reaction forceâs âcorrectionsâ will just be pro-constitution opinions dressed as fact. For example, the force will leap to defend the constitution if someone says that it will lead to the creation of an EU president, even though it will indeed lead to the appointment of a new high-profile and powerful president of the European Council for two and a half years.
It will also rebut the accusation that the constitution makes EU law supreme over national law, when national governments have already accepted that fact as necessary to make the EU work.
The constitution will be the first time that any country has signed a treaty making EU law supreme over national law, making it almost impossible for national governments to revoke this principle later."
Gettin' punches in pre-emptively. Superb work by the Times.
#30
Jonathan, Greek food is wonderful without Retsina, too. Or even the Metaxa afterward. That's why the best cooks in Roman times were all Greeks. Aris, if you live in Athens, is the Parrot pub, where the British expats used to hang out, still there? Bulldog, may I be part of the delegation? Greek hospitality is a wonderful thing.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 13:35 Comments ||
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#35
Filing this whole thread under "and you say that *I* should stop talking about America??"
Well, yeah, Aris, I think you should until you come on over and see the place for yourself. What's stopping you from coming over? It sure can't be the exchange rate vs. the Euro.
For what, a vacation? Lack of interest, primarily.
Even if I decided to spend my money on transcontinental voyages, my first choice would be Japan where I have actual friends I'd like to visit. And a culture to see which is slightly different from the EuroAmerican variation.
#38
Amazing. He still doesn't grasp that there's different culture over here than there is over there.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 15:25 Comments ||
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#39
Oh yes...I remember when I was 17 and thought Europe and America had the same culture, too.
The difference is, I wasn't too scared to get my butt on the plane and check out if I was actually correct....
Admit it, Aris, you are just too afraid to find out that you might be the slightest bit wrong.
Posted by: George Kay ||
01/21/2005 15:57 Comments ||
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#41
and thought Europe and America had the same culture, too.
Don't make hasty assumptions.
I've stated before that North America and continental Europe are different variations of the "Western civilization". But the fact remains that Japan remains a more different culture than either.
And just yesterday I said that Europe is bluer in culture than the blue states. That means I acknowledge the differences between Europe and America.
When someone (was it you?) accused me yesterday of thinking that Northern states were just like Europe, you ignored that I was doing two things:
1. Referring back to .com's claims that they are "Europeans".
2. Using "Europe" as a direction in a political/cultural spectrum, same as you could have done with "liberal". Except that liberal would have been inappropriate in the context, as I was talking about a culture in its whole, not for the politics of the moment.
Admit it, Aris, you are just too afraid to find out that you might be the slightest bit wrong.
You know I don't know any other phrase better suited to stop civil discussion dead in its tracks than the word "Admit it". Except perhaps claims of cowardice.
I still do believe that Europe is closer in politics/culture to Canada than to the USA. Do you agree?
I still believe Canada is closer to the "blue states" (North) of the USA rather than to the "red states" (South). Do you agree?
I still believe that all of these, Europe, Canada, Northern USA, Southern USA represent aspects of the same civilization. Do you agree?
As such Japan still interests me as a different culture more than the USA does. I've heard it before that among "First World" nations it's as different as you can go.
#42
THE European Parliament is to establish a ârapid reaction forceâ to address what it considers to be unfair criticism of the European constitution in any EU member state.
Looks like the EU figured something important out-that negative public opinion can be a very powerful force which can actually tip the balance of a venture from success to failure.
Sometimes that tip costs lives. Wonder what might have happened, if all that negative opinion about US motives in the Iraq War and the impossibility of something good coming out of military invention had not been the only PC opinion to hold on that continent...
#43
"He still doesn't grasp that there's different culture over here than there is over there."
And with your "still", you mean since yesterday, when you first got the wrong idea that I believe the two cultures are identical?
That's like accusing me of thinking that there exist no Christian denominations because I may have once used the term "Christianity".
Or accusing people of not understanding the Sunni/Shia division because they have used terms like "Muslims".
When the very point of my posts in that thread yesterday was to acknowledge cultural differences even *within* nations (like USA), why the hell do you think I will be stupid enough to think that there will be no differences between Europe and America?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/21/2005 17:29 Comments ||
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#48
Aris, I never claimed that you were a coward. I just implied that you are holding onto views with a death grip for whatever reason known only to you....to hell with evidence to the contrary. But hey, you have the right to believe Hollywood's version of what America is like, if you choose to do so.
All I'm saying is, that instead of watching Fellini movies and assuming that all of Italy was like that, I went over to check it out. Read into that what you will.
And, no, Canada is not like the blue states, unless you take Canada to be solely Ontario and/or Quebec, with parts of British Columbia thrown in. Go to Alberta, and it's a different story. It's pretty red up there.
Once upon a time, I thought we all had the same civilization. I don't believe that any more. I believe that we have our roots in common, but not the civilization. There are things that are accepted in Europe as a matter of course that to an American, quite frankly, are borderline intolerable. (Your rates of taxation, for example. Ok, yeah, I've heard the arguments as what they're good for....socialized medicine, a bigger welfare safety net, etc....but I'm still not convinced, and would resent the hell out of it if they were imposed on me. I prefer to take care of myself, thank you very much. That isn't a popular view in Europe, but it is here. Same with the much more prevalent anti-Semitism in Europe. That scares the hell out of a lot us, even the overwhelming majority here who aren't Jewish.)
Culture isn't just food, dancing and music, Aris...it is also a viewpoint on life. The best definition I have ever heard of the difference between America and Europe is that Europe values equality of outcome, while we value equality of opportunity. They are not the same.
One other thing, Aris...please see comment #36. Care to translate what "EuroAmerican" means? I and others took it to mean precisely what Robert Crawford did....that you still see that we are the same culture, furthermore that our culture is strictly dependent on that of Europe (all of our immigrants from other cultures -- Asian, Latin American, African -- had no effect on America? Give me a break, pal!). If not, why the hell did you use that word???
#50
See "EuroAmerican" as similar to the word "Judeochristian" when grouping together Judaism and Christianity. Or "Western Christianity" when grouping together Roman Catholics and Protestants. Or "Protestants" when grouping together Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelists, and so forth.
A generalization. A group of similar but not identical things. You don't have to think that the Greek Orthodox is the same thing as the Mormons to label both under "Christianity". You don't have to think that the Albanians are the same as the Moroccans to call them both "Muslims".
I still think that European and American culture are closer together than other cultures. This makes grouping them a useful thing in occasion, *when* I want to refer to their common differences with a third yet item -- such as was in this case Japanese culture.
Do Americans shake hands or bow when you meet someone? Do American use fork-knife-and-occasionally-hands or chopsticks instead? Do you walk barefoot indoors? Do young men often dye their hair in America?
You talk about antisemetism and yet that's something I don't share. You talk about the level of taxes and yet we do have libertarians here as well.
And yet I bet that we share things like commonly using a fork, like *not* going barefoot indoors, and like not having young men commonly dye their hair.
#51
we share things like...*not* going barefoot indoors...
Depends on the folks. In my house, shoes are to come off immediately after entering the house. It's more comfortable, less formal and less messy for the homemaker (me). :)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/21/2005 17:51 Comments ||
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#53
You know, and yet you permit it?
We know what we're turning into, it simply doesn't happen to have any relation to what *you* think we're turning into.
Here's one element where I feel that Continental European culture differs from Anglo-American culture (oops - here's another generalization, putting together Brits, Canadians and Americans).
Pretty much all the rest of the continent has living memory of *real* fascist and totalitarian regimes, rather than cinematic depictions thereof. So I think that continental Europeans occasionally can better discern what truly leads to fascism and tyranny and what doesn't.
For example: Allowing your secret services to torture people that haven't been convicted, in places that are unknown, letting nobody outside the inner circle know about it -- dangerous.
Having the parliament vote to advertise the benefits of a law or treaty which it believes has so far been misrepresented -- not so dangerous.
Maybe I should see Europe while it's still possible for me to do so without being arrested.
That's what many Europeans are thinking about America-under-Bush. Not that I agree with them.
#54
Aris, some times, well....words fail.
Not that it matters...but yeah, sometimes I'm barefoot indoors, especially in summer, and lots of guys dyed and bleached their hair in high school. If I'm having sushi or Chinese food, I use chopsticks. (Had to learn how to use them in Hong Kong, or else I would have starved....) Anyone who uses a knife and fork to eat barbecue or corn on the cob is an idiot.
None of the above makes me anything other than American. Please find some better examples.....
I never said you were antisemitic. I just took a look at what has been happening in Jewish cemetaries and the reaction to Holocaust education, and implied it from there. That kind of crap, quite frankly, would not be tolerated here. Yet the French do nothing when it happens there (the worst offenders in this regard are the French....but some of the others are trying to catch up.)
And yes, there are libertarians there regarding taxes. But the fact remains, the taxes are there. They are not here.
#55
Aris - Since you've seen fit to use or refer to my comment from yesterday 2 or 3 times in the last 24 hours, perhaps you can now favor us with your understanding of what it meant.
Obviously you understood it intimately, else you would not bandy it about, as if you were the author. If you failed to actually grasp it, then a fair chunk of what you've posted since and hung upon this hook is now a pile poop on the RB living room floor.
#56
but yeah, sometimes I'm barefoot indoors, especially in summer,
Are you barefoot indoors when you are *visiting*. Or when you have guests? By barefoot btw I meant without shoes -- socks are still allowed.
You are talking about exception, when I talk about the rules. That you're doing as the Asians do when having Asian food, is not a point against my argument.
As for the dyed hair, I'm likewise guessing it wasn't entirely a mainstream thing. I'm even guessing that the people doing it were doing it exactly because they didn't see it as mainstream. Tell me if I'm stereotyping here.
#57
.com, your comment was, and I quote: "The Blue Staters are Europeans who, unfortunately for both sides, happen to be here."
To that comment I had responded: "The Blue Staters' home seems to be (by definition) in the blue states."
My interpretation:
-You denied that blue states' culture had a place in the United States, and said that it belonged to Europe instead.
-I, on the other hand, claimed that the blue staters belonged to the blue states (aka America), regardless of whatever similarities they may have in culture with Europe.
But everyone can go and judge by himself: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&ID=54130
#60
cuz you're a tar baby, hard to resist I guess. go ahead, google tar baby, apparatchik
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 18:52 Comments ||
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#61
The only tar baby I know are the ones found in the Deadly Rooms of Death (see here) and I think I'll ignore the urge to google up references which might be more relevant.
#62
oh, c'mon! y'all are so up on Merkin culture, I figured you'd know that reference. Uncle Remus? Songs of the South? Briar Patch?
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 18:59 Comments ||
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#63
I retract my earlier statement where I said that Aris provides insight into another side of an arguement . Yes he is a total fuckwit .. Here is an interesting read .
#64
I didn't need a cite, but fine. My point is more that you've transmuted it into a neutral observation, when it was meant as anything BUT neutral, lol!
It was a snarky description of Coulter's sarcastic commentaries that the insanity (commonly referred to as LLL - not a nice polite term) concentrated in the Blue States is aping the European phenomenon of resurrecting socialist, fascist, tranzi OWG - and decidedly not a native American political view. You elevate it to "culture" and ignore the massive negative baggage associated, lol - Coulter would never aggrandize insanity that way, believe me. You are a bit loose with it, dropping the assertion that Coulter (and I) consider the phenomenon to be an insane mish-mash of dangerous and utterly failed ideologies.
To summarize, it is not Neutral, much less Good, it is a form of Insanity that denies the reality of failed ideologies by mindless followers.
#68
Frank, if you use "y'all" even as the singular of "you", then you'll need to need "all y'all" as the plural of "y'all" and that's just *ugh*.
So, I think I'll keep on using "y'all" as an American friend of mine tends to do, when I occasionally want to differentiate between the singular and plural forms of the word. A Southern thing, I reckon, or perhaps just a Georgian thing -- not sure.
Alternative is to use "youse" the way some "Philistines up north" do, as I've been told. But that sounds even worse IMO.
.com> the insanity (commonly referred to as LLL - not a nice polite term) concentrated in the Blue States is aping the European phenomenon of resurrecting socialist, fascist, tranzi OWG - and decidedly not a native American political view. You elevate it to "culture" and ignore the massive negative baggage associated, lol
Yeah, I do think I chose to "ignore the massive negative baggage associated". That you meant European to be an insult is not my concern. That (as many extreme right-wingers do) you tend to insultingly compare socialdemocracy (even at its freeest and most democratic) with fascism is not my concern either.
But as for elevating it to "culture"? That's what *you* did when you combined politics with regional tendencies, using words like "Blue Staters" and "European" -- such a connection between region and politics means one thing: the political culture.
So you're now saying I don't have the free speech right to mean what I mean, I must mean what you want it to mean and you are free to change it at will - yet you denigrate me for it at the same time, lol!
#72
Is it a red-state thing, an American thing, or just a MacNails thing, that you think you can win a discussion through insults and screams of "shut up"?
#73
Aris, just as an FYI, those who, like your Georgian "friend" might say "y'all" as a verbal greeting do not use it as a written greeting unless as an affectation. You would know something about that, IMNSHO
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 19:21 Comments ||
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Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 19:27 Comments ||
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#76
Aris, just as an FYI, those who, like your Georgian "friend" might say "y'all" as a verbal greeting do not use it as a written greeting unless as an affectation. You would know something about that, IMNSHO
*You* might use it as an affectation, but I use it to distinguish between plural and singular forms of the word, and so does she.
#79
Single Aris ? Made a family yet Aris ? I think you havent ( hence your bullshit rhetoric), because in the big picture of life , you really havent a clue . Debate is debate , until you can actually manage yourself usefully i refer to the link STFU .
#80
Geeze, this thread is getting so long it is starting to have a vanishing point. That's my perspective. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/21/2005 19:32 Comments ||
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#81
Sorry, J.T., a reasonably carefree and happy childhood.
But rather obnoxious of you to ask. You'd have felt bad if the answer had been "yes" -- kinda like asking a woman "were you raped recently" just because she annoys you.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 19:40 Comments ||
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#88
Look, everybody, he knows more about America, American politics, American regional speech, well hell, about everything, period, than anyone else on the planet. Isn't it obvious?
It's really about the extreme insecurity that presents in Little Man Syndrome. Commonly seen in those who, by fate or choice, are irrelevant. Utterly. Yet desperate to be important. How they deal with the cold hard reality is what differentiates the insignificant flaming asshole from the merely insignificant.
A kid who's never been anywhere, done anything, carried his own water, served his country, faced anything more threatening than someone dissin' him on the Internet, or even held a professional job - makes perfect sense to me that he would turn out this way when combined with LMS.
And I didn't mention what a pluperfect leech he is.
#89
"Annoys" doesn't enter into it, Aris; you don't annoy me at all, actually. But behavior such as yours is usually indicative of something seriously wrong upstairs, and I was just curious.
Glad to hear your childhood was fine and dandy. Carry on.
#92
Actually, .com, for all your continuous claims that "I claim to know everything about everything" I remember I was recently attacked here for refusing to partake in a European taxation debate (I should have supposedly attacked the eeeeviiil Brussels that are crushing the tiny nations underfoot with their taxation harmonization schemes or something) because I clearly admitted I knew little-to-nothing about economics, the same reason I never talk about currencies, about whether the Euro has been for economy or not, and so forth and so forth.
I've never been elsewhere *outside Europe*. That still lives United Kingdom, France, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic that I've travelled to. Europe's a large place.
I've never "served my country" in the sense that most people here leave it for after they finish their studies, and I've just finished them.
And as for "professional jobs", it's difficult to squeeze a full-time "professional" position in the three months or so between when you finish your academic studies and the time they call you to the army, so I'm satisfying myself with this-and-that paying programming projects.
So that's the current euphemism for jacking off in public, who'da thunk it. I'll offer that you watch it very very carefully, popping up every time a molecule of water evaporates - and popping off on the RB carpet.
Your incredible arrogance and utter lack of humility exceed, nay - drown out, all other aspects of your online presence. You are LMS personified.
Your day is coming, sonny, heh heh.
Nighty-night, little one. I leave when I say I'm leaving - so you can bluster and pretend to be my better some more, now. Toodles.
#94
My question--- just who is this "rapid reaction force" going to blame when the Parliament building mysteriously burns down immediately after the Constitution is rejected?
Is it too cliche to blame the Jews? Can't blame the Commies for obvious reasons... will it be the Anglos that take the fall? Rapacious capitalists?
And as a sidenote it vaguely creeps me out when people use "better" as a noun. People are better or worse in this or that aspect, they are not "betters" in their entire beings.
Frank had mentioned something a while ago about the way I deal with "my betters", and it was as if he'd come straight from the "evil Aristocrat cliche" handbook. Or "Evil Slavemaster cliche" perhaps.
#96
No Aris, in English the formal "you" does not necessarily distinguish between plural and singular. It's like the royal "we," or the German "Sie." "y'all" is perfectly correct in terms of linguistic usage when applied in the formal singular. On the other hand, "you people" is somewhat frowned upon in certain regional usages.
#102
Ok, I'm just dying to be #100.....so here goes, Aris.....
I go barefoot (read, no socks) in my house. It is also customary to kick off your flip-flop sandals in Hawaii at the door and walk around barefoot. I have also done that at my friends' homes, but never a stranger's. I don't want to walk around with socks on....ewww....that just makes 'em dirty and I hate using bleach. It may be different up north, and older people probably don't kick their shoes off at their friends. But my neighbor in her 80's does the same thing.
As for the hair color thing....it was a middle class high school. Some guys did it, by no means all. Most stopped once they had to get a real job. Just try getting a responsible position with metallic blue streaks in your hair.....and, the "is it mainstream" thing is relative. For teenagers, it's no big deal. Walk around with pink hair @ age 50, and quite frankly, you're a freak.
One other thing....Frank G might have pissed you off with his comment about "y'all"...I don't care what your friend from Georgia may have told you, anybody but a genuine southerner really can't use the word without it sounding, well, wrong. It's like if I try to use black slang or call my friends "vatos locos". Even if I know grammatically how to use it, it just sounds awful. Use it with your friend to your heart's content, but please, not here on Rantburg.
#103
an apt phrase Aris (inserted rimshot)>>
'laboured to refine our language to grammatical purity, and to clear it from colloquial barbarisms, licentious idioms, and irregular combinations...'
#106
Indeed you are , but you still fail to realise the significance . :-)
Anyway , I have been summoned to bed , its warm and welcoming . Unlike the attention at 7am approx . ~(when one of my contributions to life wake up .) sleep well Aris . dont get tennis elbow m8 ...
#108
The whole "re-vote until they get it right" thing that bothers me. There are so many ways that the EU requires the loss of sovereignty... right down to the cruet.
... striving to submerge identity into "the greater good"...
(2005-01-21) -- As critics began their dissection of President George Bush's second inaugural address, the White House today released a "more direct" version of the speech, stripped of the soaring poetic highlights of the original, "so that the average public school graduate, journalist and pundit can understand what the president means."
An excerpt of the so-called "Cliffs Notes" version of the speech, portrays U.S. foreign policy in these terms:
"We want freedom everywhere, not because we're crazy dreamers, but because governments held accountable to their people don't launch wars against each other. In the good old days, we could sit back and watch as tyrants tortured the helpless and fortified their arsenals. A rifle in the Middle East, or Asia, was no threat to our shores. Today, a man carrying a briefcase could wipe out millions of Americans in a single afternoon. We can't eliminate the sinful urges of crazed men, but we can help oppressed people to dump their dictators. Kill the snake by cutting off its head."
While veiled in the rhetorical flourishes of his official address, the speech also contains a message to the United Nations which seems more clear in the simplified version.
"The United Nations charter says the organization exists to...
-- 'take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace' and
-- ''to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small' and
-- 'to develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.'
"Well, that's all good. Now, let's start doing some of that stuff. Right now, the United Nations is united only in shared office space in New York. We have nothing in common with non-democratic regimes. Their presence in the U.N. gives aid and comfort to an enemy. People always talk about the legitimacy that the U.N. can bring. That's true. The U.N. brings legitimacy to dictators as they crush the hopes of millions. Negotiating with tyrants is a waste of time that only lets them gear up for eventual armed conflict, either with their own freedom-starved people or with other nations that recognize the threat too late. All I'm saying is, why wait?"
"We hear a lot about the so-called tensions between us and Europe. But think about it -- no matter how testy things get, there will never be a shooting war between us and France as long as we both remain democracies. We hold these truths to be self-evident."
While critics complained that the president devoted little attention to domestic issues, the summary text attempts to address their concerns.
"I could talk all day about Social Security reform, tort reform, public school reform, welfare reform or a hundred other domestic issues. But a single dirty bomb, or reservoir poisoning, or falling skyscraper would put all of those issues on the back burner in a flash. I've laid out my vision for many domestic issues, but freedom is the foundation on which they all stand. You want to know what we should do to improve the economy? Here it is: foster freedom around the world to reduce the number of people who are willing to die in order to end our way of life. It's supply and demand. We want to cut off the supply of those who demand the destruction of America and western civilization."
Finally, the new manuscript addresses concerns many have raised about Mr. Bush's frequent invocation of "God."
"While a lot of folks get offended that I talk about God, I don't think God gets offended."
A White House spokesman said the revised version will soon be available in French, German, Russian, Farsi, Korean, Mandarin and Arabic.
Posted by: Korora ||
01/21/2005 10:01:51 AM ||
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#1
Excellent. I hope the White House sees this and posts it on www.whitehouse.gov alongside the original. Both this and the original should be translated into Arabic, Farsi, Spanish (Cuba and Venezuela), Korean and whatever languages they speak in Zimbabwe, Burma, Vietnam, etc.
Posted by: Tibor ||
01/21/2005 12:54 Comments ||
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#2
Wow - Scott's dropped the mask. He just cut a swath through the entire crop of memes held dear by assholes and their apologists and enablers world-wide.
Phreakin' awesome.
Email the link to everyone you know.
And Dubya, baby, hire Ott as Special Advisor and Poet Laureate. If anyone on the planet besides you and your speechwriter "gets it", Ott does. In spades.
Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:
All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.
What was he thinking???
it's one thing to recognize what is needed to be done..
its another to encourage ALL oppressed people to rise up with the belief that the really big dog will be at their side.
What the hell are we going to do if people all over the world jump up and shout "Damn right! FREEDOM NOW!"
they'll be slaughtered
Democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know: America sees you for who you are: the future leaders of your free country.
The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
The leaders of governments with long habits of control need to know: To serve your people you must learn to trust them. Start on this journey of progress and justice, and America will walk at your side.
And all the allies of the United States can know: we honor your friendship, we rely on your counsel, and we depend on your help. Division among free nations is a primary goal of freedom's enemies. The concerted effort of free nations to promote democracy is a prelude to our enemies' defeat. So.. am I the only one that winced when he read the speech?
Posted by: Dcreeper ||
01/21/2005 4:34:10 AM ||
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#1
Decreeper - listen to yourself!
stay oppressed fools! How dare you intrude upon my conscience.
#2
So.. am I the only one that winced when he read the speech?
I'm sure more than a few turbans had a case of the vapors..
Posted by: Steve ||
01/21/2005 8:22 Comments ||
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#3
Dcreeper, Agree. See Peggy Noonan's comments also.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/21/2005 8:30 Comments ||
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#4
What the hell are we going to do if people all over the world jump up and shout "Damn right! FREEDOM NOW!"
In actual fact its most unlikely they will all do so everywhere at the same time. Its not all that easy getting something like that put together. In any case he promised to be at their side, NOT to send in the Marines. Of course in most cases, when you get a widespread uprising like that, you dont NEED to send in the Marines. The history of people power revolutions, from the Phillipines, to South Korea, to East Germany and Czechoslovakia, to Romania, to Georgia and Ukraine, is how reluctant security forces are to fire on their own people when they people rise in sufficient numbers against a govt that is discredited, and have international support. When the security forces DO fight back, as in Romania, they quickly find themselves divided.
Their are of course tragic failures, as in China - there the students got out ahead of the rest of the society, and even at that the forces of reaction only barely won.
Steve is right - theres got to be concern in Iran and Syria - and also in North Korea and Burma - and ALSO in Egypt and KSA and Uzbekistan - as there should be - think about it - most ordinary Iranians love the USA, while most ordinary Egyptians hate us -is the Koran somehow more antiinfidel in Cairo than in Teheran? Are the Egyptians really more concerned about the Pals than the Iranians are? I dont think so. The difference is that Iranians see us has opposing their tyranny, while Egyptians see us as supporting theirs.
And another thing - we have to think not only of ourselves, but of our children and grandchildren. in 50, or maybe 70 years, we are likely NOT to be the only superpower. China and India will likely be our equals - IF we do relatively well. Otherwise they will pass our power. IF we reach that era with a China that is still a paranoid dictatorship, and, when we look for allies, are seen as a nation whose only goal had been our own security, we will face a return to world where life is "nasty, brutish, and short". We will have lost the promise of the American Century. If our legacy is a democratic world, and a US at the center of democratic alliances, we will have assured a better world, even as our dominant power recedes.
#10
I am beting if we gave some aid and support to Iranian dissenters, they would be able to topple the mullahs all by themselves. I haven't lived there but there are few countries that don't experience 'buyers remorse' once they lived a few years under tyranny (Islam or otherwise). Look what happend in Romainia, Poland, East Germany, and most of Central/South America. once the ball got rolling.
#11
I admire Noonan and have read her books. But she is dead wrong, and, in large measure, conflicted.
Peggy is and has been one of the most vocal people about waging the battle of ideas in the war on terror.
Try this one out Peg:
You have a unnamed country ran by a despotic tyrant who oppresses his people. Here are the two alternatives for the oppressed:
1. Jump on the Jihad bandwagon, as espoused by Bin Laden et al, or
2. Take a stand for freedom and liberty, knowing that the US (and presumably other democratic countries) will stand with you. For example, the Orange Revolution.
So, why this and why now? Because we are engaged in a global war, whether we want to recognize it or not. Terrorism has come to our shores.
This is where the battle line is drawn. President Bush knows how the Euros react, he presented much the same concepts when the G8 met last summer.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 13:07 Comments ||
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#12
Long past time we framed this conflict in terms of a larger democratic struggle against the forces of fascism. This is clearly the nature of Phase II of the Iraq War, which is now underway: Iraqi democrats of all confessions/ethnicities vs Iraqi and Syrian, Saudi, Jordianian, Egyptian etc fascists. We need to link any EU3 discussions with Iran -- I won't say "progress" because they've yielded nothing substantive so far and show no signs of doing so if continued in this vein-- to real democratiuc reform in that country.
#15
Barbara and LH - good speculation. We do not want to invade Iran, by any means, and would depend on an internal overthrow with our well placed missiles aid....
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 19:36 Comments ||
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#16
hey! I got 15 comments on my first post! *puffs up proudly*
it made for an inspirational speech and I hope it made various mullahs twitch.. but I was watching the news a bit nervously today :-p
agree with you mostly LH, though you make the assumption that freedom-seeking groups that could have risen up don't already exist in these nations.. I think that's a bit hasty.. though it's a bit of a moot point now since nothing happened :-p
though I think maybe I did not word myself well enough (2b), I LIKE promoting freedom.. I just think he could have worded that a little better..a little less "we will stand with you" and a little more "fight for your freedom"...
something like "You are not alone in your desire for freedom.." then maybe bring up past success stories..
it could have been a disaster.. wasn't.. but could have been... so I winced in pain when I read that :-p
#17
Umm, I dunno. Liberalhawk, I was reading the Times' scoop on the Orange Revolution, and the revelation:
"Freedom wasn't attained by the desire of the people and international support -- it was by the men with the guns deciding to side against the oppressors."
The opposite happening in China was why the Tiananmen Square crackdown happened ...
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
01/21/2005 22:54 Comments ||
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The brother of a U.S. Marine who deserted the military twice says his latest disappearance has scuttled a potentially million-dollar book deal.
Darn. Gosh. Shucks.
Mohamed Hassoun, the brother of Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun, said the two were in negotiations for a book and film deal before Wassef disappeared during the holidays, the Salt Lake City Deseret Morning News reported. "There are no current negotiations right now," Mohamad Hassoun said Thursday from his home in West Jordan.
There's always a movie of the week deal with al-Jaz
Wassef went missing from his U.S. military base in Fallujah last June, only to appear blindfolded in an alleged terrorist video saying he had been kidnapped. He later presented himself to U.S. embassy officials in Lebanon, and returned to the United States. He spent several months being re-acclimated and debriefed. The Marine Corps investigated his disappearance and determined it to be desertion. He was to face charges this month, but disappeared again in December when he was allowed to leave Camp LeJeune on holiday leave.
They traced his bank card usage to Lebanon, and then he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth
Posted by: Steve ||
01/21/2005 1:08:30 PM ||
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This is too interesting. If nothing else, the Italians might make it into a lame Roberto Benigni comedy.
#6
While tuning up the world's tiniest violin, he noticed that the sympathy meter was pegged at "off scale--low."
Posted by: Mike ||
01/21/2005 13:49 Comments ||
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#7
yeah...we'll see.
If there was a book deal, it would mean that the publishers knew where he was weren't telling - which would cause problems for all. I'm guessing it's either just on hold right now, or it will just appear in theaters near you, one day soon.
WARY Bostonians went about their business today as a murky threat of a "dirty bomb" attack hung over the city and the FBI, while playing down the threat, hunted for four Chinese nationals possibly linked to the plot.
A day after federal agencies released names and photos of four Chinese nationals sought for questioning about an unconfirmed security threat, Boston newspapers reported that authorities were also seeking two Iraqis said to be planning to blow up a crude radiological device in Boston.
The reports of a possible plot emerged as Americans were celebrating the inauguration of George W. Bush for his second term as US president.
The Boston Globe, citing unnamed officials, said the four Chinese nationals were chemists. A spokeswoman for the Boston bureau of the FBI declined to comment on whether police were also seeking two Iraqis.
Spokeswoman Gail Marcinkiewicz, who has said uncorroborated information was at the root of the probe, said: "There is no real immediate threat to the community."
Two federal law enforcement officials expressed surprise that the information had received such attention.
"The law enforcement community routinely receives these kinds of reports," said one Homeland Security official.
Although not confirmed, the information was serious enough to prompt Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney to cut short a visit to Washington where he had planned to attend the inauguration.
Authorities first learned of the potential threat from an anonymous tip, Boston Mayor Tom Menino said.
Boston-area residents expressed confusion over the degree of threat, noting that federal officials appeared to have downplayed the reports when they first emerged yesterday afternoon - only to then turn around and release names and photographs later in the day.
Authorities said none of the four individuals had previously appeared on any kind of watch list.
"My question is why do they have pictures of these people if they aren't on a watch list? There must be some reason why the government has these pictures on file," Marisol Lopez, 34, told a reporter in a Boston bagel shop.
Mary Ellen Blythe, 37, said she fretted about a possible attack that might coincide with the inauguration.
"Sure, it's scary, I don't know if it's true but I'm concerned," she told a reporter on a downtown Boston street. "I'm not going to barricade myself though, but I'm worried."
Others expressed little concern, saying they had grown weary of all the seemingly false warnings issued after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
"I'm sceptical about this, it's not the first warning since 9/11. Maybe it's just hype, I think it's been done before," said Brian Hayes, 28.
Donna Martelli, 53, said Boston's wintry streets were the real immediate threat.
"I'm more concerned about slipping on the snow right now," she said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/21/2005 11:01:52 AM ||
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"Iâm more concerned about slipping on the snow right now," she said.
Just wait 'til tomorrow night - 1'+ is being forecast. Good split pea soup weather.
This is on the Jihadwatch for Jan 20. If this turns out to be true, even the MsM dhimmis may not be able to suppress it (although I'm sure they will try)
----------------------
"... Hossam Armanious, is the source of this information, which comes to you exclusively from Jihad Watch:
The Armanious family had inspired several Muslims to convert to Christianity — or thought they had. These converts were actually practicing taqiyya, or religious deception [see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya for a somewhat apologetic description and http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html for a description by Moslems and a more intellectually honest description at: http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp] , pretending to be friends of these Christians in order to strengthen themselves against them, as in Qur'an 3:28: "Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful -- he that does this has nothing to hope for from Allah -- except in self-defense."
It was these "converts" who knocked on the door of the Armanious home. Of course, the family, not suspecting the deception, was happy to see the "converted" men and willingly let them in to their home. That's why there was no sign of forced entry. Then the "converted" Muslims did their grisly work...."
I posted this late yesterday but too late for most people to see it so I'm reposting it today.
Posted by: mhw ||
01/21/2005 8:13:48 AM ||
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Muslims never cease to amaze me. They have this ability to turn their most vile acts into an opportunity to claim how they are being victimized. Unreal!
#5
Now,Now there everyone. Don't jump to conclusions - the solution here is educating christians about muslim sensitivities. I blame the chirstians for not considering the muslims sensitivities and culture. First lets step back and form a committee to figure out what the christians did wrong to offend the peaceloving muslims. Then we must try to change our values, attitude, and culture so it won't offend the muslims again like this. Allan knows that feeling offended is truely one of the worst things a person can experience.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/21/2005 10:07 Comments ||
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Former President Jimmy Carter was a target of the clandestine lobby campaign launched by an Iraqi-American businessman who admitted he was paid millions of dollars to undermine U.S. policy toward Iraq, it was revealed yesterday.
Virginia-based oilman Samir Vincent earlier this week became the first person to plead guilty in the U.N. oil-for-food scandal. He had several contacts with the former Democratic president in a bid to weaken and eventually repeal sanctions against Saddam Hussein's regime, investigators said.
Contacts with Vincent dated back to 1999, when Carter and his wife, Rosalynn, hosted a delegation of Iraqi religious leaders at their home in Plains, Ga. The Iraqis were in the country to lobby American religious leaders — including the Rev. Billy Graham — against U.N. sanctions on Iraq, imposed after Saddam's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Vincent organized the trip.
Later that year, Carter disclosed that he was trying to send his son, Chip, as well as Billy Graham's son, Franklin, to Iraq to "give publicity to the plight of the people in Iraq who are suffering."
Carter, who was in Washington to attend President Bush's inauguration yesterday, could not be reached for comment.
Vincent testified in federal court in Manhattan on Tuesday that he was paid millions of dollars by Saddam's regime for lobbying.
Among Vincent's American contacts was former GOP vice-presidential nominee and ex-New York Rep. Jack Kemp, who acknowledged working with him on a proposal to ease the economic sanctions if Iraq would readmit U.N. weapons inspectors.
In 1999, Kemp took those proposals to then-Defense Secretary William Cohen — and again in 2001, to Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell, said Washington lawyer Lanny Davis, who was speaking for Kemp. In his discussions with Powell and Cheney, Kemp said he wanted to go to Baghdad to pitch his plan with the younger Graham, who is an associate of Carter, Davis said. Kemp was rebuffed.
#1
In 1999, Kemp took those proposals to then-Defense Secretary William Cohen â and again in 2001, to Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell, said Washington lawyer Lanny Davis, who was speaking for Kemp. In his discussions with Powell and Cheney, Kemp said he wanted to go to Baghdad to pitch his plan with the younger Graham, who is an associate of Carter, Davis said. Kemp was rebuffed.
jeesh. How much were they paid? Raises my opinion of Clinton just a bit.
The U.S. Congress has determined that Iraqi oil revenues supervised by the United Nations were diverted to fund suicide Palestinian operations against Israel. Congressional investigators have found evidence that then-President Saddam Hussein used money from the UN oil-for-food program to pay families of Palestinian suicide bombers in 2001 and 2002. The investigators said Saddam paid up to $25,000 to the family of any Palestinian who died in a successful suicide operation. A successful suicide attack was deemed as one in which Israelis were killed. "According to the information provided to this committee, Saddam paid $25,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers through the Iraqi ambassador to Jordan out of accounts in the Rafidain bank in Amman, which held kickback money Saddam demanded from suppliers to his regime," House International Relations Committee chairman Rep. Henry Hyde said during a hearing on Wednesday. "Evidence also points to Saddam extending the Arab League boycott against Israel, requiring companies dealing in the program to sign letters conforming to the boycott." Rafidain was identified as a government-owned bank based in Baghdad with branches in Jordan.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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And after all this, plus possibly more in the works, some people will STILL insist that the UN is worth something. (it's not, but...)
Secretary-General Kofi Annan decided not to reappoint the head of the UN relief agency for Palestinians because of a long campaign against him by Israel and the United States, UN officials said on Wednesday. Peter Hansen, a Dane, has led the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) since February 1996 and had signaled he was willing to serve a fourth three-year term at its helm. But the United States, the program's biggest single donor and one of 10 countries on its advisory board, argued against the reappointment on grounds he had served long enough and the agency needed new blood, the officials said.
The Bush administration made clear it would be hard to keep up the $120 million annual US contribution to the agency if Hansen were reappointed due to unhappiness over him in Congress, the officials said. "It was clear that he wasn't renewed because of US and Israeli calls for his head," said one official familiar with the deliberations, speaking on condition of anonymity. The United States was the only member of the advisory board opposing Hansen's reappointment, the official said, adding that European Union and Arab nations backed him for a new term.
Some UN sources said Hansen's departure had been in the works for some time as Israeli unhappiness with him built up over the years. Israel has repeatedly called for his resignation. Annan told reporters on Monday Hansen was among a number of UN officials who would be leaving their posts. Hansen was often stopped by the Israeli military from going in and out of Gaza and this was "not doing any good to the agency," said one UN official. He has often sparred with the Israelis over the agency's work. The Jewish state accuses UNRWA of turning a blind eye to the use of its vehicles and facilities by militants waging a four-year-old uprising. Hansen in turn has accused Israel of wanton destruction of Palestinian homes, which Israel denies.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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THE al-Qaeda linked terror group, Jemaah Islamiya, has standing plans to launch terror activities in key urban centers in Mindanao, military intelligence reports said Friday.
The report said that the foreign Jemaah Islamiyah bomb experts have supervised and started the training of new recruits in the island.
But Lt. Col. Buenaventura Pascual, Armed Forces Public Information chief, said he has no personal knowledge of the report on the activities of the Jemaah Islamiya.
"I don't know about the report. I have not seen any such document if there are," Pascual said in a telephone interview Friday.
The report said most of the Jemaah Islamiya trainees are members the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF). However, it was not clear if the MILF recruits are regular fighters of the MILF.
"JI bomb experts supervise the training of new recruits in the conduct of guerrilla opeÂrations and mass production of homemade bombs," part of the report said.
It added that the training was conducted by three Indonesians assisted by an unidentified MILF fighter.
The report also said that the Jemaah Islamiya are being protected by members of the MILF-Special Operations Group (SOG) and the bandit Abu Sayyaf while in Mindanao.
The report added that the Jemaah Islamiya are using local contacts for funds and logistical support as well as manpower while in Mindanao.
These contacts supposedly include 15 members of the MILF-SOG and a separate elite force trained in demolition techniques.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/21/2005 11:07:50 AM ||
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General Pershing had an interesting means of cooling Moros. He had a bunch of them shot, leaving a few of them alive to see their comrades unceremoniously dumped into a pit and buried with several dead pigs. Then he let the survivors go.
The Indonesian Government says it wants to begin peace talks with separatist rebels in Aceh by the end of the month but members of the Indonesian army do not appear to be as willing to negotiate. The chief of the Indonesian army, Ryamizard Ryacudu, claims to have killed 120 separatist fighters in the past fortnight. He says the separatists were stealing relief supplies. The army's chief has threatened to crush the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) if it does not surrender to Indonesian forces.
Asked about the planned resumption of peace talks between the Government and GAM by the end of this month, he answered, ''For me, if GAM doesn't give up, just beat them. I don't want to think difficult things.'' Mr Ryacudu said some 40,000 Indonesian soldiers are currently in Aceh. He said half of them are carrying out humanitarian activities in the province, including cleaning up cities and towns and escorting convoys of vehicles bringing assistance from the neighbouring province of North Sumatra. Another 20,000 soldiers are still involved with the military crackdown on the rebels, who have been seeking independence from Indonesia since 1976. Today, the Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono will travel to tsunami-affected Banda Aceh on Indonesia's western tip to mark the Muslim day of sacrifice with the local people.
Posted by: God Save The World ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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What the tsumani did not kill in Aceh, the Indonesian government will kill - with our "Tsumani Aid Dollars".
Syria was said to have launched a campaign to intimidate the regime's opposition abroad. Syrian opposition sources said agents of President Bashar Assad have been sending threats to opponents in Europe and the United States. They said the messages include e-mails that threatened to kill the children and relatives of opposition members. "The Syrian Ba'ath party secret agents are on the prowl against Syrian opposition outside Syria," the Washington-based Reform Party of Syria said. "In what seems to be a deliberate policy, RPS members are getting threatening e-mails from Syrian agents. The e-mails are threatening to kill them, their children, and members of their immediate families." On Nov. 6, Germany arrested a Syrian embassy staffer and charged him with espionage and issuing threats against the Syrian opposition in Europe. The staffer was said to be one of scores of Syrian nationals who work for the Assad regime and ordered to locate and intimidate opposition members.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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" On Nov. 6, Germany arrested a Syrian embassy staffer and charged him with espionage and issuing threats against the Syrian opposition in Europe."
Hand the coward over to the people he's threatened and let them do what they want with him.
#2
Has Bashir run out of Fatwas that he has to use threatening e-mails ??? How unislamic of him.
Or has the Syrian FATWAnator Mark IV gone bad because of lack of Soviet spare parts (hand made in Chechnia by learned Mullahs from premium Islamic materials)
Israel's military has drafted plans for an air attack on Syria. Military sources said the plan would retaliate for increasing attacks by Hizbullah against northern Israel. The sources said Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon has urged the Cabinet to launch an air attack on a major Syrian military target in an attempt to force Damascus to restrain Hizbullah. "Right now, nobody is stopping Hizbullah," a military source said. "They feel they have a green light to escalate." The last Israeli air attack on Syria was in October 2003. At the time, Israeli F-16 multi-role fighters bombed a training base used by Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian insurgency groups.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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invade with a u.s pincer movement on the eastern border--return the government back to the byzantines and the culture to the nestorians
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
01/21/2005 3:32 Comments ||
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#2
How does Assad's chicken neck actually support his head? Perhaps he has some flesh colored rings the Karen women of Burma use.
#3
I suspect that the leadership of Syria is in a much more chaotic state than supposed. The upsurge by Hizbullah is probably more driven by Iran flooding weapons and support through both Syria and Lebanon, while the Syrians have their minds on other things. Their typical response is to ignore what is happening in front of them, be it ex-Baathists from Iraq or Iranians and Paleos cutting up rough. Because if they ignore, for even a moment, their own infighting, they will lose their head. If the US does covertly enter Syria to whack some of these bad boys starting next month, odds are if they keep it discreet, the Syrian army will ignore them, too.
Iran has launched a rapid deployment military force. Officials said the military has organized the rapid deployment force over the last year. They said the unit participated in the Payrovan-i Vilayat exercise in southwestern Iran on Dec. 8. The rapid deployment force was meant to respond within hours to any military emergency in or outside Iran. Officials said the force was the size of a brigade and contained C-130 aircraft for rapid transport as well as armored vehicles, anti-tank missiles and artillery. Officials said the first appearance of the rapid deployment force was at Payrovan-i Vilayat, deemed the largest military exercise ever in Iran. They said the force would be a major element in Iran's defense against any attack by the United States.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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The Iranians are determined not to be 'caught' with their 'pants' down; either the psy-ops programs are working or they are jittery as Mexican Jumping beans!
#11
Iran has launched a rapid deployment military force.
Hezbollah moves to slow, eh?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/21/2005 9:37 Comments ||
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the bilateral cooperation, particularly in the field of space exploration and the development of satellites. In addition to UFO-related contracts Russia and Iran are working on the details of the agreement to launch the Zohreh satellite.
A hardline Iranian religious group threatened on Wednesday to carry out suicide attacks on a UK-based Iranian exile TV presenter, saying his broadcasts were inflammatory and insulted Islamic values. Mojtaba Bigdeli, the spokesman of Iran's Hizbollah group, said the British government must ban the satellite channel run by Iranian exiles within 30 days or face the consequences. "After one month, our commandos will carry out suicide attacks in London against the shameless presenter of the channel," Bigdeli told Reuters by telephone.
I'd call this significant. Here's an Iranian government-sponsored band of fascisti threatening a government. Now, to me, it would seem that Iran would be held accountable for the actions of the Sturmabteilung...
He said his group was independent of Lebanon's Hizbollah, which analysts say receives training and financing from Iran.
But they do receive their training and financing from the Iranian government. They're the thugs who're used to suppress the students when they try and break out of their straightjackets...
Farsi language Ma-TV presenter Manouchehr Fouladvand's comments, mocking the Prophet Muhammad and Islam's holy book the Koran, have spurred several hardline commentators in Iran to demand his death. "He has crossed our red lines by insulting our prophet and Islamic values," Bigdeli said. British embassy officials in Tehran were not immediately available for comment. Previously they had criticised Fouladvand's views while defending his right to free speech.
Yesterday it was Rushdie, today Fouladvand, tomorrow who? Murder is their business.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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If this ain't a Casus Beli for the Brits then I've never seen one in my life.
It's high time somebody cuts the hand that writes those Fatwas.
Personally I wouldn't mind if the British invade Lebanon, at least the logistics look much better than they were for the Falkland Islands :)
But then again, Blair is not Thatcher, is he ??
#5
I think you've put your finger on the sensitive spot, EoZ.
Now we find out if Blair and his Band of Libs believe in true Liberal Freedom - or are the usual paper (mache) tigers -or worse. His actions in Iraq gave him immense status here in the US. The pasting he took at home told us that they are under the thumb of deluded dhimmitude. Can he wake them up, educate them that their claimed ideology demands support for the Persian people against their oppressors, or will he continue the ineffective pathetic appeasement of the E3 - being Chirac's lap poodle, as it were. Our RB UK Cousins could certainly use some support.
Bush has just put Blair and all of the razorblade riders on the spot.
#6
Blair will quite rightly tell these thugs where they can shove their fatwas, I'm sure. These incompetent morons tried the same shit with Rushdie and proved themselves to be all mouth, no trousers.
But he'll still try to ingratiate himself with Chirac and Schroeder, as he feels is his duty as a good EUrophile.
#7
Bulldog,
You're so wrong about Rushdie, mate !
Rushdie is still hiding, and I believe that he is still alive only because the police and secret services hid him away.
The mere fact that he cannot freely and openly walk the streets of London is a tremendous insult to the British people who so generously and naively accepted millions of Moslems into their country with no questions asked.
What is needed is an iron hand with internal Islamics as well as with al the nitwit Mullahs who issue such Fatwas.
The British should start using strict countermeasures by officially Harassing and deporting Islamic warmongers among them and by unequivocal active punitive measures against countries who harbour Fatwa initiators.
If the Iraq war divided Europe, the continent is united in calling for continued negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program after US President George W. Bush refused to rule out possible military action. "In the view of the German government, there is no alternative to these discussions," chief government spokesman Bela Anda told reporters in Berlin, a view echoed by officials in Paris.
There's always the option of clobbering them, of course...
"These talks are being held with our German and British partners, in perfect consultation with the United States and our other European partners," said a spokeswoman for the French foreign ministry. The European Union's "big three" — Britain, France and Germany — are in the midst of crucial talks with Iran aimed at finding a long-term solution that would assuage international fears about Tehran's controversial nuclear program. Their efforts have led to the temporary suspension of Iran's uranium enrichment program.
Also to some pretty wild-eyed, spittle-spewing rhetoric. Now, the question becomes: are the Medes and Persians merely making faces and jumping up and down to scare us off, or are they seriously thinking that they're going to continue being Bad Guyz? I think they're Bad Guyz at heart, and that we're going to have to smash the ayatollahs, one way or the other.
Iran vehemently denies it is developing nuclear weapons, insisting that its activities are merely directed at generating electricity, but Washington claims that the program is instead a cover for the development of the atomic bomb. "The fact that the Americans are not excluding the use of military force is not new in principle, but doesn't necessarily indicate that there are concrete attack plans," said Karsten Voigt, Germany's point man for German-US relations.
If war is diplomacy by other means, then diplomacy might be military action by other means. A place for everything, and everything in its place...
Analysts and diplomats even suggested that Europe and the United States could be working together to keep up pressure on the Islamic republic.
If they're not, they're doing it wrong...
"The United States has a hard line but I think its ultimate line is to have the European efforts succeed. It is a good cop-bad cop approach," said an Asian diplomat close to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). "I would say that dangling a stick can be an effective diplomatic tool when used in conjunction with a few carrots," said another diplomat close to the Vienna-based UN nuclear watchdog.
Thank you for today's statement of the obvious...
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, referring to the different EU and US tactics, told the Financial Times: "Those who said we'd be split apart by the Iranians are wrong. Those who said we could not build up a degree of trust with the Iranians — at the same time as building up a strong consensus with the US and the non-aligned countries — are wrong."
"Really. We're having it both ways..."
US President George W. Bush said on Monday he could not rule out a resort to military action if the United States failed to persuade Iran to abandon a nuclear energy program it charges is a cover for developing the atomic bomb. "I hope we can solve it diplomatically, but I won't ever take any option off the table," Bush said. Then, US Secretary of State-designate Condoleezza Rice called for world action to keep Iran from building nuclear weapons, and repeated a threat to haul Tehran before the UN Security Council for possible sanctions.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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"I think they're Bad Guyz at heart, and that we're going to have to smash the ayatollahs, one way or the other."
It's either them, or us. The Black Hats let us know, 25 years ago, that there would be no compromise with them, not ever. A showdown is coming, and I suspect it will be soon.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/21/2005 0:26 Comments ||
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And who does the EU-3 expect to provide the carrots to Iran? Yep, the good ole USA.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 0:39 Comments ||
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#4
As long as the US doesn't start any of that 'nation building' proposal crap like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq; the country could be 'technologically destroyed' back to 20 years without a sweat! Pause, monitor the reaction retaliation levels, and if total commitment is observed, then use over whelming force to crush the nation back to 100 years ago. Let the mullahs decide the level of annihilation, like the Emperor of Japan had to do!
#5
âIn the view of the German government, there is no alternative to these discussions,"
If there is no alternative to discussions,then discussions will not acomplish anything,and are pointless.
#6
Iran's mullahs aren't looking for "carrots"; these kleptocrats have already stuffed their pockets to their satisfaction and have no interest in improving the welfare of their people.
It's the host countries of Renault and Siemens that are being bribed here, not Iran.
#7
The shearing of Britain from the U. S. is an immense victory for the French and Iranians. Perhaps the low point of the coming war will be when the forces of evil have conquered all but us and the island nation of Australia.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/21/2005 8:29 Comments ||
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#8
Be charitable. There are always alternatives. For example, in this case, there are several alternatives. The mullahs could be hung from light poles. Or, they could be herded into a warehouse that is then set on fire. Or, they could be buried alive in a deep pit. Or...
#11
Mrs D is dead right - and fundamental to the equation of what comes next. Bush sure put Blair on the spot, IMHO. We shall see, but the dynamics changed yesterday, methinks.
#12
Thanks, EoZ. I certainly hope so as you would be a valued partner. India too, but I'm not sure how many more there will be when the dark night ends.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/21/2005 13:33 Comments ||
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Mrs. D,
The number does'nt count, it's the quality....
Also I would not give up on the Brit's
remember who came to power after Chamberlain.
The British have this encouraging trait of character
that when push comes to shove and the look the truth in the eye, they come to their senses very quickly.
Additionally, once they see who their true enemy is, woe be to that enemy.
#14
The Euro-fascist elite will always bow to totalitarian evil for bucks. Iraq taught us that.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
01/21/2005 16:35 Comments ||
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Did Bush put Blair on the spot. I know Im "different" here, but to me the 2nd Inaugural Address sounded pretty Blairish to me (though Tony wouldnt have mentioned G-d quite so much). The challenge is only IF its read as a threat of war with Iran. Which I didnt see in it quite frankly. I saw more outreach to the Iranian dissidents, which is quite another thing than war. More along the lines of the strategy supported by Ledeen, I think.
#17
The IRAN situation in particular can make or break the unilateral credibility of the fledging EU - France per se has already staked/risked its national prestige, and by extens that of the pan-continental EU, by committing milfors to quell violence in Africa. France = EU > they can not and must not fail in their state-specific or EU-specific ventures, nor be seen as kowtowing or requiring US power, or even the Russians, to prevail, whether in Africa and espec against IRAN or other nuclearizing ME or world rogues. The EU must be seen as proactive, pro-development, pro-democracy, and benevolent to all sides.
Somali militiamen, allied with Islamic clerics who rule by sharia law, have dug up hundreds of skeletons from an Italian colonial-era cemetery and thrown them in the trash, sparking anger in the Italian and Somali capitals. The motive for the mass exhumation by gunmen allied with the clerics who rule northern Mogadishu remained unclear on Friday. Witnesses said hundreds of corpses were dug up over the past five days and thrown away at a dump near Mogadishu's airport, which drew a strongly worded protest from Rome. "The profanation of a silent and historical place, sacred to all civilisations, is a vile and particularly hateful act which can have no justification whatsoever," the Italian government said in a statement.
Gunmen told residents near the cemetery in south Mogadishu that the courts ordered them to clear the site of non-Islamic elements, witnesses said. But a number of high-ranking court clerics have denied that, and residents and other Muslim religious leaders condemned the exhumations as out of keeping with their faith.
There is also speculation in Italy and Somalia that the grave destruction is simply a land grab by local businessmen. A number of wealthy businessmen from the capital have regularly financed the Islamic courts and their militias. Ahmed Alore, a guard at the cemetery for more than 30 years, said most of the 3,000 people buried there are soldiers, traders and missionaries from Italy. Italy, which controlled parts of Somalia from 1889 until independence in 1960, urged "that those responsible for this barbarous act will soon be identified and brought to justice." But how that could happen in the lawless capital remains in question.
The new transitional government has yet to return from Kenya, where it has remained because of security fears at home since its formation in Nairobi over the past five months. Dozens of fractious militias have been the de facto rulers of Somalia since 1991, when a militia coalition ousted military dictator Mohammed Siad Barre and ushered in an era of anarchy.
Iraq's interim defense minister said on Friday the government would arrest Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmad Chalabi after the Eid al-Adha holiday on suspicion of maligning the defense ministry. "We will arrest him and hand him over to Interpol. We will arrest him based on facts that he wanted to malign the reputation of the defense ministry and defense minister," Hazim al-Shaalan told Al Jazeera television. The satellite channel quoted Shaalan as saying Chalabi would be handed to Interpol over his conviction in absentia by a Jordanian court in 1992 of embezzling millions from Petra Bank, whose 1989 collapse shook Jordan's political and financial system.
"Our measures will start after Eid," Shalaan said. The Muslim feast began on Jan. 20 and ends on Sunday in most Arab states. Shaalan told London-based newspaper Asharq al-Awsat in remarks published on Friday he would order the arrest after Chalabi accused the defense minister in an interview of stealing $500 million from the ministry and posted documents on a Web site accusing Shaalan of links to Saddam Hussein's government. Chalabi, a Shi'ite Muslim politician who is a contender to become Iraq's prime minister after Jan. 30 elections, was not immediately available for comment.
#1
I'd just (wednesday?) seen a report he was running in the elections and thought WTF??? This guy has more intrigue around him than Beria
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 18:54 Comments ||
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#2
Announcing arrests to be made in the future strikes me as soooo Arab. He prolly has time to repent and be forgiven before they're supposed to even show up. Saves wear and tear, wasted motion, I guess.
#4
who the hell is this Chalabi (other than his press bio bits) and what are his real motivations? I was partially convinced he was a DOD guy, then an Iranian mole, then WTF?
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/21/2005 19:23 Comments ||
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An overwhelming majority of Iraqis continue to say they intend to vote on Jan. 30 even as insurgents press attacks aimed at rendering the elections a failure, according to a new public opinion survey.
The poll, conducted in late December and early January for the International Republican Institute, found 80 percent of respondents saying they were likely to vote, a rate that has held roughly steady for months.
The 64 percent who said they were "very likely" to vote represented a dip of about 7 percentage points from a November survey, while those "somewhat likely" to vote increased 5 points.
Western specialists involved with election preparations said they were struck by the determination and resilience of ordinary Iraqis as they anticipate their country's first free election in half a century.
"Despite the efforts of the terrorists, Iraqis remain committed to casting their vote on election day," IRI President Lorne Craner said in a statement. The organization, which is funded by Congress through the National Endowment for Democracy and the U.S. Agency for International Development, commissioned the poll, which surveyed 1,900 Iraqis in all but two of the country's 18 provinces. Poor security made two in the far north, Nineveh and Dohuk, inaccessible. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.
"I think people will be shocked," said an official of another international organization deeply involved in preparing Iraq's nascent political class for the ballot. The official, who insisted that neither he nor his organization could be identified because of security concerns, said most Iraqis remained intent on exercising their right to elect a government after decades of dictatorships.
"I think the real story of this election is what's gone on beneath the radar," the official said. "They may not know what they're voting for. But I think they recognize it's something called democracy."
The new survey was released on a relatively quiet day in Iraq, the start of a four-day religious holiday marking the end of the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Streets were largely empty, and attacks appeared to be down sharply from Wednesday, when insurgents mounted more than 100 across the country, including 10 car bombings.
In the southern city of Basra, however, an explosion at the entrance to a British military base injured several people, including British soldiers, according to a statement by the British military. A group led by Abu Musab Zarqawi posted an Internet message saying the attack was "in response to the harm inflicted by British occupation forces on our brothers in prison."
Three British soldiers are accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners in a scandal that recalls the Abu Ghraib case, including photos of naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex.
Another guerrilla group, the Ansar al-Sunna Army, asserted responsibility for an attack on two cars carrying a Western security detail near Baiji, an oil town in the north, on Wednesday. A British man and an Iraqi driver were killed in the attack, and a Brazilian man is missing. The group claimed to be holding a Briton and a Swede.
Mohammed Mutar, a laborer who said he witnessed the attack, said the attackers pretended to be waiting in a long line at a gas station before attacking the two-car convoy. Lt. Col. Safa Majoun, who heads the security detail at the Baiji power plant, said two men were kidnapped, including the head of the company that runs the plant. Nazar Jabbar, a driver, said he and the company's other drivers immediately resigned.
In Anbar province, a vast and predominantly Sunni stretch of western Iraq that includes Fallujah and Ramadi, Zarqawi's group this week distributed fliers warning that anyone seen in public from Jan. 27 on would be regarded as "a military target."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/21/2005 10:36:27 AM ||
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The deployment of an international force to southern Sudan could be delayed by a dispute over which countries send peacekeeping troops. The southern rebel group is unhappy that too many Muslim countries have been asked, a senior UN source says.
I can see their point, it's the classic "Fox-Henhouse" situation
The United Nations is hoping to deploy some 10,000 troops to monitor the peace deal between the Islamic government and Christian and Animist rebels. The deal ended 21 years of war which left some 1.5m people dead. A key member of the rebel SPLM, Deng Alour Deng, said they had not been consulted over which countries would make up the new peace mission to southern Sudan and that they had reservations about the whole list. The BBC's Jonah Fisher in the southern capital, Rumbek, says that several countries are thought to have been approached, including Pakistan, Bangladesh and Malaysia.
The Samoans must be washing their hair that day
A Security Council vote on the UN mission is not due until early February but in order to begin arriving in March participating countries need to be planning ahead now, our correspondent says. On Thursday, the first diplomatic mission was opened in Rumbek, 900km south of the capital, Khartoum, to represent Dutch and British interests. Speaking on his first visit to Rumbek, UN envoy Jan Pronk said this week that the challenge to secure peace and develop the south was huge. Rumbek has no paved roads or multi-storey buildings and hardly any running water or electricity.
"No four star hotels? How do expect us to do anything without a decent resturant?"
Posted by: Steve ||
01/21/2005 9:05:07 AM ||
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Ram Vilas Paswan seems to have dug out the ultimate weapon to woo Muslim voters of Bihar — an Osama bin Laden look-alike, who is tagging him to election meetings. This bin Laden clone is one Maulana Meraj Khalid Noor, with whose endorsement Paswan is hoping to fell the reigning champion of Muslims in Bihar — his bete noire Lalu Prasad. TOI caught up with Paswan on Wednesday and asked if it was proper to try and attract minority voters by lionising the symbol of international terror. Paswan seemed to have been taken by surprise, but gathering his wits, he asked: "What can you do if your face looks like Saddam Hussain or Osama bin Laden?" He claimed the man who looked like Osama — Meraj Khalid Noor — was the son of a close friend of his. "His father and I have known each other for a very long time. We had together joined the old socialist party."
Paswan was at pains to stress that he didn't mean to uphold terrorism, especially a terror icon like bin Laden. But he admitted that Osama did have some following among the Muslim youth, although the vast majority of Muslims think that he has harmed Islam and the community. Underplaying the whole episode, Paswan insisted it "did not mean anything" just because "somebody who looked like Osama" has campaigned for him. But other political parties, and perhaps the Election Commission too, might hold a different view. Party sources said that Khalid Noor is a young man from Narpat Ganj in Bihar. He had sought an election ticket from Paswan only on the ground that he looked like Osama, but Paswan had turned it down. However, he decided to make use of him for campaigning. The youth himself likes to be called "Laden", saying that no one will remember his real name.
Posted by: tipper ||
01/21/2005 1:16:30 AM ||
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#1
Noor's agent, of "Despot and Tyrant Doubles" said, "It's a tough gig for Noor and the Sadaam doubles. Why, just last year, they were earing upwards of 6 figures. Now, eh...we were lucky to get him this clown gig."
Anna Comnena has been busy Altaf Hussain seems to be playing a complex game but at the end of the day is likely to remain within the government rather than opting out
As the crisis in Balochistan continues, the one party that seems to be trying to draw political mileage out of it is the ethnic Mutahidda Qaumi Movement. Recently, its exiled leader Altaf Hussain announced that he would consider walking out of the government if the army launched an operation in Balochistan. But while the announcement has gone down well with the Baloch, it hasn't amused Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, president of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League-Q who shot back saying the government wouldn't fall even if the MQM were to quit. To make his threat credible, Altaf Hussain personally contacted Nawab Akbar Bugti, chief of the Jamhoori Watan Party and assured him of his support, besides reiterating that the MQM would quit the present government both at the Centre and in Sindh in case of a military operation in Balochistan. Baloch leaders like Bugti and Attaullah Mengal have lauded the MQM announcement for being "timely" and the first of such a nature by any major politico-nationalist party. However, observers question the motives behind Altaf Hussain's announcement. "It is all part of a game to gain popular support and credibility," says an analyst. "He is getting too much out of this coalition to want to throw it away."
From the way it looks, Altaf Hussain is playing a more complex game than simply holding out a threat that he says he intends to carry out. The MQM has been at the short end of the military's stick since the 1992 army operation in Sindh and it is only in the past three years that it has made its peace with the army. It has the lion's share of ministries in the Sindh government and is spoiling to contest this year's municipal polls. The party had boycotted the first election under the new plan and has since had to bear the consequences of what it later described as an ill-thought decision. But the red rag for the MQM bull would be any move that could bring the PPP close to the army. For a number of reasons that could become the only viable course for Islamabad were Hussain to actually carry out his threat. The likelihood is that he knows Islamabad is showing force in Balochistan rather than actually intending to use it. Given this it makes sense for him to play his cards in a way that he can sidle up to the Baloch nationalists.
In fact, as one analyst told TFT, Altaf Hussain seems to have made a smarter move compared to the Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal which has remained taciturn on the Baloch issue. "It almost seems like they are fine with a military operation in Balochistan," says this analyst. It is possible that the MMA sees the present standoff as being to its advantage especially if it pits the army against the nationalists and by doing that weaken both the sides. Altaf knows that he holds a key position in Sindh — it has 42 seats in the Sindh assembly and 18 in the NA — and the provincial chief minister, Arbab Ghulam Rahim, depends heavily on the MQM legislators. However, if the push came to a shove, the government could always co-opt the PPPP. Of course, that would also change the entire hue of the political game.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
01/21/2005 12:15:18 AM ||
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...But even as it took Europe many more centuries to finally compete with the Muslims in the military sphere, the quality of intellect within the Muslim world had begun to decline. The rejection of reason coupled with schools of fiqh led to an intellectual stalemate from which the Muslims have failed to recover so far.
Until you accept the utility of reason, your thought processes remain... ummm... unreasonable. All else follows from that...
By the 19th century most Muslim countries had been subjugated.
Cause -> Effect...
The movements for revival, instead of understanding the real reasons for the decline of the Muslims, took the easy route and ascribed the regression to lack of faith among the faithful. Faith was to be the magic wand, even in the absence of everything else, which would somehow raise the fallen and make them outrun everyone else. Small wonder then that even after 200 years this has not happened. If anything, Muslims are today worse off civilisationally than they were even during the heyday of classical Western imperialism when some of them tried to go back to reason, Syed Ahmed Khan being a prime example in the subcontinent.
More shariah doesn't cut it, huh?
It is therefore heart-rending to see that Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, the imam of Kaaba, had nothing significant or visionary to offer the over two million people who had congregated in Mecca for Haj this year. He resorted to the same platitudes about the Muslims not being good Muslims. He still wants Muslim women to remain confined to their homes because that is supposed to be their highest calling; he wants an Islamic economic system when there is no such thing in the global capitalist environment; he wants Muslims to stay away from the Western civilisation because of its 'nefarious' influence on Muslim youth; he refuted the Western charge that Islamic preachers preach violence and so on. Well, he is wrong on almost all counts.
Wrong as wrong can be. Spectacularly wrong. Probably intentionally wrong. But he's the one who gets to share his opinion with a couple million of the faithful, having them hang on his words as though they made sense...
It is easy to talk about all Muslims getting together. But how does one do it? Pan-Islamists have never told us that magic formula which, when applied, would bring all the Muslim states together in every conceivably significant way. Of course, in their present state, if they did, it would only add to their collective darkness rather than bring any light to the Islamic world. The Islamists do not even believe in the nation-state.
... unless you consider the caliphate to be a glorified nation state.
No one suggests that to get to that kind of grand alliance, we will first have to improve the performance of the nation-states themselves. Not only has this never happened in Islamic history before, some cases of external military support notwithstanding, but today there is not one Muslim state that can fulfil the conditions of a core state that is so important for any such alliance to come into existence. The Islamic economic system is another spent argument that the imam chose to dwell upon. But let us face the truth. Even within Islam, there is not much agreement on some of the fundamentals of the system, including zakat. Moreover, even if one were to move in that direction, it would, at the minimum, call for ijtihad in light of today's complex financial dealings and systems. But if the issue of riba, as decided by the courts in Pakistan, is anything to go by, ijtihad does not come easy to us. Instead, we are inclined to sail in the boat of existing fiqh and deduce from it rather than apply inductive logic. Empirical evidence shows how poorly most notions of Islamic banking and finance have fared. In Pakistan, we have seen mudarbas and musharakas fail miserably. The story is the same wherever else states have tried to institute the Islamic economic system that has not risen beyond its medieval roots.
That could be because it's just as artificial as the Soviet system was. Maybe more artificial, come to think of it...
The imam's logic on women's empowerment (more appropriately women's disempowerment) is again a known factor among the Muslim clergy. They just want to lock them up and claim that Islam has the best solution to the problem of the sexes. Even as the West has come out of the Biblical depiction of Eve being born from Adam's ribs and enticing him into disobeying God, Muslims seem to have swallowed the logic of woman's inferiority and her nefarious charms, hook, line and sinker. The irony is that this goes completely against Quranic teaching.
He's got a point there. Mohammad's wives seem to have had more personality than the current Islamic woman is allowed.
Finally, the imam wants Muslims to stay away from Western civilisation. Presumably, for the imam, as for many Muslims, Western civilisation is about obscenity and degeneration. Well, nothing could be further from truth. Western civilisation, as Samuel Huntington correctly wrote in his controversial work on Clash of Civilisations, is not about Magna Mac, it's essentially about Magna Carta. And the memory of Magna Carta evokes more pain because it should remind us of one of bitter facts we have not been able to develop a political theory and a succession principle. Today, not one Muslim country can boast of internal stability and a mechanism that aggregates the interests of its citizens. The darkness in the West that the imam has implied actually exists within us, which is why most Muslims would much rather be Western citizens and have rights than enjoy the "light" in their own states.
It's built into the religion. You're not allowed to stop being a Moose limb and become something else. By extension, you're not allowed to have your own opinions. You're not allowed to be responsible for your own actions. You're obliged to sacrifice yourself in jihad. You're nothing but a resource to be disposed of as others see fit. With no individual liberties you're just cattle.
It's time to wake up. It's time to let go of the platitudes. It's time to look within and see what has gone wrong with us. It's time to put things in a perspective. It's time to get out of our fatalism and take responsibility for our actions. It's time to realise that it is not a lack of Islam but a surfeit of literalism that has chained us to our medieval roots.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 9:54:31 PM ||
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#1
i'm stunned at this brilliant realistic analysis--does this guy still have his head
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
01/21/2005 3:45 Comments ||
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#2
well the editoral gets it half right
half of the reason for the Islamic decline is the decline of reason
the other half is the decline of non Muslims; it turns out that during the heyday of Islamic civilization, most of the scientists and intellectuals were either non Muslim or non believing muslims --- as Islam strangled the Christian and Jewish communities the air went out of the science and intellectual side of the civilization.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has lifted a ban on contacts with new Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas imposed last week after six Israelis were killed in a Gaza border ambush, officials said. Israeli Army Radio said the decision taken at a meeting of Sharon's inner cabinet meant that senior Israeli and Palestinian security officials would meet on Wednesday evening.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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Bashir Nafe, commander of the PA special forces, have declared that his forces would disarm all activists in line with a plan to ward off armed attacks on occupation. Nafe, who might be entrusted with security command in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said that the PA leadership had adopted a decision to halt all anti-occupation raids. The PA police forces have already started implementing the decision but the Zionist army was hampering such efforts, he elaborated. "Our instructions are clear: to collect all illegal weapons. Any arms other than that of the PA will be collected," he affirmed. Nafe's statement followed orders by PA president Mahmoud Abbas to his forces to end "violence" with all means in order to resume peace talks with the Zionist regime.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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#1
"And then we all wear scotish tartans and speak swedish."
#2
We, of the "Zionist Regime" wish to draw your attention to the fact that Bashir's Last name "Nafe"
is suspiciously phonetically similar to the Arabic word "Nafas" (also know as "Hashish" a cousin of the Marihuana Family).
This may in fact shed some light on his later comment : the Zionist army was hampering such efforts
Jordan has quietly bolstered its security forces to prepare for an insurgency imported from Iraq. Jordanian officials said they were concerned by the departure of Islamic volunteers from Iraq to such neighboring countries as Jordan and Syria. The officials said they could not rule out that the Islamic operatives were being directed to subvert the Hashemite kingdom after receiving training and combat experience in Iraq. Jordanian Prime Minister Faisal Al Fayez has acknowledged that Jordan was preparing for the prospect that the Iraqi insurgency would spill into the kingdom. Al Fayez said Amman has drafted security plans to quell any attempt to introduce the insurgency in Jordan. Al Fayez did not elaborate. "We have plans to contain any effort to destabilize Jordan's security, border security and economic security," Al Fayez said.
What goes round comes round, eh?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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#4
does this make sense strategically? At this point the jihadis are throwing their utmost into stopping the Iraqi elections. Why divert forces to Jordan?
More likely
1. Its the usual need to keep a plan in the drawer for any eventuality
2. Its an excuse to crack down domestically
3. Its a dig at the new Iraqi democracy
#5
Oy, the joy. Instead of a democratic domino, an islamofascist domino.
Bravo!
Aris,
be careful with expressing your joys.
besides for the joys being indicative of the man,
you may find a couple of guys from the notorious
Jordanian secret service knocking on your door tommorow :)
#6
Aris, lemme explain...
Domino has 2 relevant sides. The other 4 are just an expression of depth. Paint one side islamofascist, paint the other democracy. Knock the first one so that democracy is on top and islamofascist side down. Dominoes fall, turning the democracy side up.
Simplification, I know. But since you live, apparently, in Flatland, I had to.
#7
The Jordanians will treat the Baathists just like they did the Palestinians and Black September. There will be fewer cockroaches to scuttle back to Syria if this comes to pass.
UN inspectors investigating undeclared nuclear activity in Egypt that could be related to atomic weapons development are checking out a reprocessing lab for making plutonium, diplomats said. The lab, apparently put together in the 1980s but never used, raises questions about an Egyptian nuclear program which is peaceful but may also be carefully structured to be able to move toward weapons development if Cairo decided to take this step, diplomats said in recent comments. "It's not empty, the Egyptian story," a diplomat close to the UN's nuclear watchdog International Atomic Energy Agency told AFP, commenting on the ongoing investigation and hinting there are more undeclared activities than inspectors of the Vienna-based IAEA had originally thought. But the diplomat, who asked not to be named, said Egypt's undeclared work was small scale and not even comparable to South Korea, a non-atomic-weapons state which has admitted to carrying out small-scale rogue nuclear experiments. A second diplomat said the main question with Egypt is not what it is hiding but the range of its nuclear activities, in a country that is a regional power concerned about alleged nuclear weapons programs in Israel and Iran.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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Dr Condoleezza Rice has indicated that the United States is prepared to deal with Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into extremist hands. Questioned by Senator John Kerry during her confirmation hearing for secretary of state about the possibility of extremists taking control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons if President General Pervez Musharraf were toppled, she said the US was "prepared to try to deal with it".
Kerry said, "If you were to have a successful coup in Pakistan, you could have, conceivably, nuclear weapons in the hands of a radical Islamic state automatically, overnight. And to the best of my knowledge, in all of the inquiries that I've made in the course of the last years, there is now no failsafe procedure in place to guarantee against that weaponry falling into the wrong hands." Rice responded, "We have noted this problem and we are prepared to try to deal with it. I would prefer not in open session to talk about this particular issue," she said. Pressed on the point, Rice said: "We're very aware of the problem, senator, and we have had some discussions. But I really would prefer not to discuss that."
Kerry is a breath-takingly stoopid man. I really don't like him, and this merely reinforces my opinion...
Remind me how lucky we were yesterday at the Inaguration ...
Rice also said Pakistan had come back from the "brink of extremism" over the last five years thanks to Musharraf's policies in favour of moderate Islam. "And that has given rise to very promising developments, if you think about it, in South Asia, as India and Pakistan start feeling toward a better future. I think in part that's been fuelled by Pakistan's unwillingness to be associated with extremism." Asked by Kerry about the AQ Khan affair, Rice said what Washington was concerned with was that "we are able to get the information that we need to break up the network".
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 AM ||
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#1
This is clearly a grandstanding gesture by an incompetent part-time senator with grand ambitions but little substance.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/21/2005 0:23 Comments ||
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#2
âIf you were to have a successful coup in Pakistan, you could have, conceivably, nuclear weapons in the hands of a radical Islamic state automatically, overnight."
As distinct from having nuclear weapons in the hands of ...?
#4
... there is now no failsafe procedure in place to guarantee against that weaponry falling into the wrong hands.
Failsafe??? There's no such thing anywhere on earth, you self-absorbed POS! Of course, maybe if he had actually attended to some of his duties as a Senator (no thanks to me) he might know the answer to this question. I know, I know: this wasn't a legitimate request for information - just a lame attempt at gotcha
To think how close this guy came to being CinC just freezes my blood.
#5
Condi should have told Kerry that she does not discuss such matters with people (Kerry, Ter-ray-sa, and the 'Tides foundation') who support the Terrorsts.
BARA: Mufti Munir Shakir, a renowned religious scholar, has declared the trade of opium "halal," legitimate, in the light of Islamic teachings during his routine sermon on an unlicensed FM radio station operating in Bara tehsil of Khyber Agency the other day. The Mufti is a popular religious scholar in Khyber Agency and adjacent areas of Afghanistan where a large number of people very regularly listen to his sermons on the FM radio station set up in Malakdin Khel area of Bara for the last six months.
Poppy cultivation has increased several times in the tribal belt over last four years. Not only have the governments of Pakistan and Afghanistan banned the business and cultivation of opium but almost all religious scholars in both the countries have declared the trade and cultivation of poppy prohibited in Islam. Answering a question, Munir Shakir declared the cultivation and trade of opium legitimate on the grounds that it was mostly used in about 98 percent medication. He said the use of anything that had the potential of having a positive impact and benifit on human beings could not be declared illegitimate and prohibited in Islam.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/21/2005 00:00:00 ||
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#1
The Koran and the scholars always find a way.
Looks like it'll be a happy, and profitable, Eid for Munir.
#3
I think we need to start fertilizing poppy fields with napalm about three or four times a year. Maybe the local residents that survive will get the message.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/21/2005 14:55 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
As millions of faithful marked Eid Al-Adha yesterday, Muslims were warned against heeding militant calls to wage terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. The warning came, amid a surge in militant attacks in Muslim countries and beyond, from Sheikh 
concern in a commentary under the headline "Fireworks in Washington, despair around the world." It compared the massive fireworks display used in the inauguration celebration to the ordnance US "occupation forces" would expend in Iraq in 24 hours. 
THE identity of Australians could be subjected to unprecedented scrutiny under the biggest security protection plan since the failed Australia Card. Federal cabinet will soon see a proposal for a national "document verification service" designed to combat identity-related crimes ranging from welfare fraud to terrorism. It would give federal and state government agencies and key businesses the right to verify the identity of clients by cross-checking birth certificates, drivers' licences and passports through a central data exchange hub. The Attorney-General's Department is finalising the proposal for the online system. Airlines, banks and other businesses vulnerable to welfare fraud or terrorism are keen to be part of the project. 
THE Australian Government had no plans to shackle 
Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq yesterday boasted that Australians there were now targets for their terror strikes. The Daily Telegraph can reveal that in Wednesday's explosion, Warrant Officer David Thompson was one of two Australian soldiers who suffered minor shrapnel wounds to his face and neck. WO Thompson had been in Iraq just a few weeks when terrorists rammed a truck packed with explosives into the soldiers' barracks he now calls home, directly across from the Australian Embassy. Like more than 100 other Australian soldiers at the barracks, WO Thompson was preparing to start the day when the truck detonated just after 7am on Wednesday, shattering windows at the nearby embassy and filling the sky with shrapnel. WO Thompson, 35, told his superiors he had no intention of returning home and vowed to stay and do his job, protecting embassy staff from future terrorist attacks. He then called home in Australia, telling his wife, Vanessa, he was safe and eager to resume his post. 
THE European Parliament is to establish a "rapid reaction force" to address what it considers to be unfair criticism of the European constitution in any EU member state. 
The brother of a U.S. Marine who deserted the military twice says his latest disappearance has scuttled a potentially million-dollar book deal. 
The U.S. Congress has determined that Iraqi oil revenues supervised by the United Nations were diverted to fund suicide Palestinian operations against Israel. Congressional investigators have found evidence that then-President Saddam Hussein used money from the UN oil-for-food program to pay families of Palestinian suicide bombers in 2001 and 2002. The investigators said Saddam paid up to $25,000 to the family of any Palestinian who died in a successful suicide operation. A successful suicide attack was deemed as one in which Israelis were killed. "According to the information provided to this committee, Saddam paid $25,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers through the Iraqi ambassador to Jordan out of accounts in the 
Secretary-General Kofi Annan decided not to reappoint the head of the UN relief agency for Palestinians because of a long campaign against him by Israel and the United States, UN officials said on Wednesday. Peter Hansen, a Dane, has led the 
The Indonesian Government says it wants to begin peace talks with separatist rebels in Aceh by the end of the month but members of the Indonesian army do not appear to be as willing to negotiate. The chief of the Indonesian army, Ryamizard Ryacudu, claims to have killed 120 separatist fighters in the past fortnight. He says the separatists were stealing relief supplies. The army's chief has threatened to crush the 
Syria was said to have launched a campaign to intimidate the regime's opposition abroad. Syrian opposition sources said agents of President Bashar Assad have been sending threats to opponents in Europe and the United States. They said the messages include e-mails that threatened to kill the children and relatives of opposition members. "The Syrian Ba'ath party secret agents are on the prowl against Syrian opposition outside Syria," the Washington-based Reform Party of Syria said. "In what seems to be a deliberate policy, RPS members are getting threatening e-mails from Syrian agents. The e-mails are threatening to kill them, their children, and members of their immediate families." On Nov. 6, Germany arrested a Syrian embassy staffer and charged him with espionage and issuing threats against the Syrian opposition in Europe. The staffer was said to be one of scores of Syrian nationals who work for the Assad regime and ordered to locate and intimidate opposition members.
Israel's military has drafted plans for an air attack on Syria. Military sources said the plan would retaliate for increasing attacks by Hizbullah against northern Israel. The sources said Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon has urged the Cabinet to launch an air attack on a major Syrian military target in an attempt to force Damascus to restrain Hizbullah. "Right now, nobody is stopping Hizbullah," a military source said. "They feel they have a green light to escalate." The last Israeli air attack on Syria was in October 2003. At the time, Israeli F-16 multi-role fighters bombed a training base used by Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian insurgency groups.
A hardline Iranian religious group threatened on Wednesday to carry out suicide attacks on a UK-based Iranian exile TV presenter, saying his broadcasts were inflammatory and insulted Islamic values. 
If the Iraq war divided Europe, the continent is united in calling for continued negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program after US President George W. Bush refused to rule out possible military action. "In the view of the German government, there is no alternative to these discussions," chief government spokesman Bela Anda told reporters in Berlin, a view echoed by officials in Paris.
Iraq's interim defense minister said on Friday the government would arrest 
The deployment of an international force to southern Sudan could be delayed by a dispute over which countries send peacekeeping troops. The southern rebel group is unhappy that too many Muslim countries have been asked, a senior UN source says. 
Ram Vilas Paswan seems to have dug out the ultimate weapon to woo Muslim voters of Bihar — an Osama bin Laden look-alike, who is tagging him to election meetings. This bin Laden clone is one Maulana Meraj Khalid Noor, with whose endorsement Paswan is hoping to fell the reigning champion of Muslims in Bihar — his bete noire Lalu Prasad. TOI caught up with Paswan on Wednesday and asked if it was proper to try and attract minority voters by lionising the symbol of international terror. Paswan seemed to have been taken by surprise, but gathering his wits, he asked: "What can you do if your face looks like Saddam Hussain or Osama bin Laden?" He claimed the man who looked like Osama — Meraj Khalid Noor — was the son of a close friend of his. "His father and I have known each other for a very long time. We had together joined the old socialist party."
...But even as it took Europe many more centuries to finally compete with the Muslims in the military sphere, the quality of intellect within the Muslim world had begun to decline. The rejection of reason coupled with schools of fiqh led to an intellectual stalemate from which the Muslims have failed to recover so far. 
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has lifted a ban on contacts with new Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas imposed last week after six Israelis were killed in a Gaza border ambush, officials said. Israeli Army Radio said the decision taken at a meeting of Sharon's inner cabinet meant that senior Israeli and Palestinian security officials would meet on Wednesday evening.
Jordan has quietly bolstered its security forces to prepare for an insurgency imported from Iraq. Jordanian officials said they were concerned by the departure of Islamic volunteers from Iraq to such neighboring countries as Jordan and Syria. The officials said they could not rule out that the Islamic operatives were being directed to subvert the Hashemite kingdom after receiving training and combat experience in Iraq. Jordanian Prime Minister Faisal Al Fayez has acknowledged that Jordan was preparing for the prospect that the Iraqi insurgency would spill into the kingdom. Al Fayez said Amman has drafted security plans to quell any attempt to introduce the insurgency in Jordan. Al Fayez did not elaborate. "We have plans to contain any effort to destabilize Jordan's security, border security and economic security," Al Fayez said. 
UN inspectors investigating undeclared nuclear activity in Egypt that could be related to atomic weapons development are checking out a reprocessing lab for making plutonium, diplomats said. The lab, apparently put together in the 1980s but never used, raises questions about an Egyptian nuclear program which is peaceful but may also be carefully structured to be able to move toward weapons development if Cairo decided to take this step, diplomats said in recent comments. "It's not empty, the Egyptian story," a diplomat close to the UN's nuclear watchdog International Atomic Energy Agency told AFP, commenting on the ongoing investigation and hinting there are more undeclared activities than inspectors of the Vienna-based IAEA had originally thought. But the diplomat, who asked not to be named, said Egypt's undeclared work was small scale and not even comparable to South Korea, a non-atomic-weapons state which has admitted to carrying out small-scale rogue nuclear experiments. A second diplomat said the main question with Egypt is not what it is hiding but the range of its nuclear activities, in a country that is a regional power concerned about alleged nuclear weapons programs in Israel and Iran.
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