Article

2005-01-21 Europe

EU Constitution Dissent - Send In the 'Rapid Reaction" Jack Boots

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Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11136 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 WTF is "Euroscepticism"? The opposite of Eurocredulousness? Of Eurogullibility?

In my spare moments I've been reading the EU Constitution; at 250+ pages it is, as Rumsfeld once said of our mission in Iraq, a "long, hard slog".

Posted by Dave D. 2005-01-21 12:44:26 AM|| 2005-01-21 12:44:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Didn't Saddam get voted into office with 99.9% of the vote by using this tactic?

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 12:44:54 AM|| 2005-01-21 12:44:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Euroskeptics are those who don't lick the Brussels Boot.

Posted by Dishman 2005-01-21 12:56:45 AM|| 2005-01-21 12:56:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Bussels dictum: Public flogging with continue until moral improves.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 1:38:42 AM|| 2005-01-21 1:38:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 "Euroskeptics are those who don't lick the Brussels Boot"

Nope. "It is those who don't eat the Brusssels sprouts".

Posted by JFM 2005-01-21 1:54:36 AM|| 2005-01-21 1:54:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 This is not from Scrappleface ?!

Posted by Beau 2005-01-21 2:32:01 AM|| 2005-01-21 2:32:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 You will keep voting until you are broke or it passes. That's Brussel's intent in the meaning of demoracy. Demoracy comes from the enlightened top downwards. Do as we say not as we do, shut up, or pay the penalties.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-01-21 4:49:18 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-01-21 4:49:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 "More crushing of dissent in John AshKKKroft's AmeriKKKa . . . er, I mean, . . . uh, . . . Diamond Giscard's Eurosocialist EUtopia? Wassupwitdat?"

Posted by Mike 2005-01-21 7:01:18 AM|| 2005-01-21 7:01:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 All right! EU Thought Police! Surrender or receive dirty looks!

Posted by tu3031 2005-01-21 8:53:12 AM|| 2005-01-21 8:53:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Nope. "It is those who don't eat the Brusssels sprouts".

It fills me with shame to admit something like this in public, but here goes: I... I actually like Brussels sprouts.

There. I did it. That wasn't so bad...

Posted by Dave D. 2005-01-21 9:34:05 AM|| 2005-01-21 9:34:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Jesus, guys. You're just ASKING for trouble in this thread.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-21 9:34:36 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-21 9:34:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 I actually like Brussels sprouts.

Just stay right where you are, Dave. Someone will be by shortly to have a "talk" with you about this

Posted by Steve 2005-01-21 9:46:11 AM|| 2005-01-21 9:46:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Time for a little twelve-step-ism:

"Hi, I'm Dave, and I like Brussels sprouts."

"Hi, Dave."

Posted by Mike 2005-01-21 9:49:21 AM|| 2005-01-21 9:49:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 "Just stay right where you are, Dave."

I'm not going anywhere, just sitting here enjoying my broccoli...

Posted by Dave D. 2005-01-21 10:03:38 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:03:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Mmmmm, Brussels sprouts...I like them, too. Fresh and lightly steamed, drenched in a little melted butter, and gently tossed with fresh-ground pepper, a little crumbled bacon and toasted bread crumbs...

Posted by Sgt. Mom 2005-01-21 10:12:11 AM|| [http://www.sgtstryker.com] 2005-01-21 10:12:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 So does my dad and my MIL. Sometimes w/salt, sometimes w/cheese.

They are just little cabbages.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-21 10:20:34 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:20:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Luckily this thread has gone vegetable. I was afraid all the enlightened "Euro" crap was going to draw in He Who Can't Be Named.

This "Rapid Reaction Force" reminds me of last year when our local school district wanted to build a new high school for $92 million rather than renovate the existing school for a fraction of that. Their plan was ultimately soundly defeated by referendum, but not before the school district bureaucrats spent a ton of public money on advertising to promote their position. For some reason, the bureaucrats felt entitled to spend public money to lobby against obvious public opinion. They should be fired for it.

Same with the Euros: they should spend money to educate the public on what the choice really is, but not to promote one decision over the other.

Oh, and I like Brussels sprouts and broccoli. Greek food too.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-21 10:23:31 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:23:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 The Euros need to check with the DNC on "How To Get Our Message Through The Thick Heads Of Stupid Voters, Who Are Basically Too Dumb To Know What's Good For Them."

Posted by Seafarious 2005-01-21 10:38:22 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:38:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Luckily this thread has gone vegetable."

Gotta write that one down...

Posted by Dave D. 2005-01-21 10:41:31 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:41:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 a "pre-emptive ignore"

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 10:41:49 AM|| 2005-01-21 10:41:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 This pretty unbelievable. In between all their shouts of "Bush is Nazi", do these idiot really not see what they are turning into with stuff like this?

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2005-01-21 10:43:59 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2005-01-21 10:43:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 "do these idiot really not see what they are turning into with stuff like this?"

Yes, we do actually, much better than y'all presume to do.

Filing this whole thread under "and you say that *I* should stop talking about America??"

---

WTF is "Euroscepticism"?

Don't you like the term? On my part, I think it way too complimentary indeed -- on the other it seems that several Eurosceptics themselves don't like it. Probably because skepsis is a concept that offends them even more than gnosis does.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 10:58:57 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 10:58:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Tom: Greek food -- mmmm. It could taste horrible for all I know, but eating Greek food always seemed to entail drinking Retsina, so I felt great about everything. Maybe we should convert this from a vegetable thread to a potent alcohol thread.

Posted by Jonathan 2005-01-21 11:24:23 AM|| [http://www.workaround.blogspot.com] 2005-01-21 11:24:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 No need to think for yourself, the Euros "know" what's good for you.

Let's see, what is the definition of propaganda?

Answer: A specific type of message presention, aimed at serving an agenda. Yep, Chairman Mao would be proud of the Euros.

"Ideological education is the key link to be grasped in uniting the whole Party for great political struggles. Unless this is done, the Party cannot accomplish any of its political tasks."

"On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. III, p. 315.*

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 11:52:14 AM|| 2005-01-21 11:52:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Attention Aris: Rantburg will be sending a delegation over to pay you a visit until your ideological education is complete.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-21 11:55:16 AM|| 2005-01-21 11:55:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Ptah: I figure it slightly higher than 80%, say 85%.

30% Criticism, 20% Correction, 35% Ego Maintenance

Posted by Shipman 2005-01-21 12:08:37 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:08:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Rantburg will be sending a delegation over to pay you a visit until your ideological education is complete.

LOL Cap'n! And you'll be paying their board and lodgings, Aris. You are reminded that the delegates have refined tastes. They will be paying you repeat visits until you acquiesce to their wishes.

Mmm sprouts...

Posted by Bulldog 2005-01-21 12:11:34 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:11:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 The article goes on to say:

"The European Commission has set up a special âcommunications strategy committeeâ and is promoting a website [I think that's this effort - definitely one to bookmark, Aris] to rebut âEuromythsâ spread by the British press in the hope of winning the propaganda battle over the next two years.

Eurosceptic MEPs complain that many of the reaction forceâs âcorrectionsâ will just be pro-constitution opinions dressed as fact. For example, the force will leap to defend the constitution if someone says that it will lead to the creation of an EU president, even though it will indeed lead to the appointment of a new high-profile and powerful president of the European Council for two and a half years.

It will also rebut the accusation that the constitution makes EU law supreme over national law, when national governments have already accepted that fact as necessary to make the EU work.

The constitution will be the first time that any country has signed a treaty making EU law supreme over national law, making it almost impossible for national governments to revoke this principle later."

Gettin' punches in pre-emptively. Superb work by the Times.

Posted by Bulldog 2005-01-21 12:17:17 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:17:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Mike - LOL your #13! My face hurts.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 12:20:37 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:20:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Jonathan, Greek food is wonderful without Retsina, too. Or even the Metaxa afterward. That's why the best cooks in Roman times were all Greeks. Aris, if you live in Athens, is the Parrot pub, where the British expats used to hang out, still there? Bulldog, may I be part of the delegation? Greek hospitality is a wonderful thing.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-21 12:20:57 PM|| 2005-01-21 12:20:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Aris, if you live in Athens, is the Parrot pub, where the British expats used to hang out, still there?

Never heard of it. Athens is a big place, can you give me a bit more specific info on its location? When I find the chance I may check up on it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 1:11:42 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 1:11:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I don't like Retsina. Rut gut.

Maybe we should start a "Bring Aris to America" fund to have him visit.

But that pistachio ice cream on Poros....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

And the Greek Wedding Cookies on Hydra(?) memory's failing, was a long time ago.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-21 1:12:33 PM|| 2005-01-21 1:12:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 I love brussel sprouts! Steamed, then sauted with olive oil, lemon pepper and Aunt Jane's Crazy Salt.

Posted by Remoteman 2005-01-21 1:19:33 PM|| 2005-01-21 1:19:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 You can't say I didn't warn you.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-21 1:35:55 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-21 1:35:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Filing this whole thread under "and you say that *I* should stop talking about America??"

Well, yeah, Aris, I think you should until you come on over and see the place for yourself. What's stopping you from coming over? It sure can't be the exchange rate vs. the Euro.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 2:37:18 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-01-21 2:37:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 What's stopping you from coming over?

For what, a vacation? Lack of interest, primarily.

Even if I decided to spend my money on transcontinental voyages, my first choice would be Japan where I have actual friends I'd like to visit. And a culture to see which is slightly different from the EuroAmerican variation.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 3:15:00 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 3:15:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 "Lack of interest"

Piece of advice: For the sake of consistency, stick to it in the commentary, as well.

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-21 3:23:39 PM|| 2005-01-21 3:23:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Amazing. He still doesn't grasp that there's different culture over here than there is over there.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-21 3:25:08 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-21 3:25:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Oh yes...I remember when I was 17 and thought Europe and America had the same culture, too.
The difference is, I wasn't too scared to get my butt on the plane and check out if I was actually correct....
Admit it, Aris, you are just too afraid to find out that you might be the slightest bit wrong.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 3:33:46 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-01-21 3:33:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Getting close corporal blondie.

Posted by George Kay 2005-01-21 3:57:27 PM|| 2005-01-21 3:57:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 and thought Europe and America had the same culture, too.

Don't make hasty assumptions.

I've stated before that North America and continental Europe are different variations of the "Western civilization". But the fact remains that Japan remains a more different culture than either.

And just yesterday I said that Europe is bluer in culture than the blue states. That means I acknowledge the differences between Europe and America.

When someone (was it you?) accused me yesterday of thinking that Northern states were just like Europe, you ignored that I was doing two things:

1. Referring back to .com's claims that they are "Europeans".
2. Using "Europe" as a direction in a political/cultural spectrum, same as you could have done with "liberal". Except that liberal would have been inappropriate in the context, as I was talking about a culture in its whole, not for the politics of the moment.

Admit it, Aris, you are just too afraid to find out that you might be the slightest bit wrong.

You know I don't know any other phrase better suited to stop civil discussion dead in its tracks than the word "Admit it". Except perhaps claims of cowardice.

I still do believe that Europe is closer in politics/culture to Canada than to the USA. Do you agree?

I still believe Canada is closer to the "blue states" (North) of the USA rather than to the "red states" (South). Do you agree?

I still believe that all of these, Europe, Canada, Northern USA, Southern USA represent aspects of the same civilization. Do you agree?

As such Japan still interests me as a different culture more than the USA does. I've heard it before that among "First World" nations it's as different as you can go.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 4:45:51 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 4:45:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 THE European Parliament is to establish a ârapid reaction forceâ to address what it considers to be unfair criticism of the European constitution in any EU member state.

Looks like the EU figured something important out-that negative public opinion can be a very powerful force which can actually tip the balance of a venture from success to failure.

Sometimes that tip costs lives. Wonder what might have happened, if all that negative opinion about US motives in the Iraq War and the impossibility of something good coming out of military invention had not been the only PC opinion to hold on that continent...

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-21 4:53:11 PM|| 2005-01-21 4:53:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 "He still doesn't grasp that there's different culture over here than there is over there."

And with your "still", you mean since yesterday, when you first got the wrong idea that I believe the two cultures are identical?

That's like accusing me of thinking that there exist no Christian denominations because I may have once used the term "Christianity".

Or accusing people of not understanding the Sunni/Shia division because they have used terms like "Muslims".

When the very point of my posts in that thread yesterday was to acknowledge cultural differences even *within* nations (like USA), why the hell do you think I will be stupid enough to think that there will be no differences between Europe and America?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 4:56:46 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 4:56:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 As soon as I saw this thread had 40+ comments, I just knew Aris was involved.

Guess I'm psychic, huh? ;-p

Hey, Aris - will you be raising a toast with us to Rantburg and President Bush at 2 pm EST tomorrow? Just wondering. :-D

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2005-01-21 5:02:12 PM|| 2005-01-21 5:02:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Barbara> As soon as I saw this thread had 40+ comments, I just knew Aris was involved.

I imagine it's a case of selective reporting. Peggy Noonan thread has 50+ and I'm not involved. ;P

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 5:15:06 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 5:15:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 why the hell do you think I will be stupid enough to think that there will be no differences between Europe and America?

Don't answer that, Frank. ;o)

Posted by badanov 2005-01-21 5:23:07 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-01-21 5:23:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 So, Aris - are you drinking with us?

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2005-01-21 5:29:39 PM|| 2005-01-21 5:29:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Aris, I never claimed that you were a coward. I just implied that you are holding onto views with a death grip for whatever reason known only to you....to hell with evidence to the contrary. But hey, you have the right to believe Hollywood's version of what America is like, if you choose to do so.

All I'm saying is, that instead of watching Fellini movies and assuming that all of Italy was like that, I went over to check it out. Read into that what you will.

And, no, Canada is not like the blue states, unless you take Canada to be solely Ontario and/or Quebec, with parts of British Columbia thrown in. Go to Alberta, and it's a different story. It's pretty red up there.

Once upon a time, I thought we all had the same civilization. I don't believe that any more. I believe that we have our roots in common, but not the civilization. There are things that are accepted in Europe as a matter of course that to an American, quite frankly, are borderline intolerable. (Your rates of taxation, for example. Ok, yeah, I've heard the arguments as what they're good for....socialized medicine, a bigger welfare safety net, etc....but I'm still not convinced, and would resent the hell out of it if they were imposed on me. I prefer to take care of myself, thank you very much. That isn't a popular view in Europe, but it is here. Same with the much more prevalent anti-Semitism in Europe. That scares the hell out of a lot us, even the overwhelming majority here who aren't Jewish.)

Culture isn't just food, dancing and music, Aris...it is also a viewpoint on life. The best definition I have ever heard of the difference between America and Europe is that Europe values equality of outcome, while we value equality of opportunity. They are not the same.

One other thing, Aris...please see comment #36. Care to translate what "EuroAmerican" means? I and others took it to mean precisely what Robert Crawford did....that you still see that we are the same culture, furthermore that our culture is strictly dependent on that of Europe (all of our immigrants from other cultures -- Asian, Latin American, African -- had no effect on America? Give me a break, pal!). If not, why the hell did you use that word???

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 5:34:05 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-01-21 5:34:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 #22 "do these idiot really not see what they are turning into with stuff like this?"

Yes, we do actually, much better than y'all presume to do.

You know, and yet you permit it?

Maybe I should see Europe while it's still possible for me to do so without being arrested.

Posted by Dishman 2005-01-21 5:43:51 PM|| 2005-01-21 5:43:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 See "EuroAmerican" as similar to the word "Judeochristian" when grouping together Judaism and Christianity. Or "Western Christianity" when grouping together Roman Catholics and Protestants. Or "Protestants" when grouping together Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelists, and so forth.

A generalization. A group of similar but not identical things. You don't have to think that the Greek Orthodox is the same thing as the Mormons to label both under "Christianity". You don't have to think that the Albanians are the same as the Moroccans to call them both "Muslims".

I still think that European and American culture are closer together than other cultures. This makes grouping them a useful thing in occasion, *when* I want to refer to their common differences with a third yet item -- such as was in this case Japanese culture.

Do Americans shake hands or bow when you meet someone? Do American use fork-knife-and-occasionally-hands or chopsticks instead? Do you walk barefoot indoors? Do young men often dye their hair in America?

You talk about antisemetism and yet that's something I don't share. You talk about the level of taxes and yet we do have libertarians here as well.

And yet I bet that we share things like commonly using a fork, like *not* going barefoot indoors, and like not having young men commonly dye their hair.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 5:47:35 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 5:47:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 we share things like...*not* going barefoot indoors...

Depends on the folks. In my house, shoes are to come off immediately after entering the house. It's more comfortable, less formal and less messy for the homemaker (me). :)

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-21 5:50:15 PM|| 2005-01-21 5:50:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#52

like not having young men commonly dye their hair

Haven't been to San Francisco, Aris? ;-p

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2005-01-21 5:51:08 PM|| 2005-01-21 5:51:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 You know, and yet you permit it?

We know what we're turning into, it simply doesn't happen to have any relation to what *you* think we're turning into.

Here's one element where I feel that Continental European culture differs from Anglo-American culture (oops - here's another generalization, putting together Brits, Canadians and Americans).

Pretty much all the rest of the continent has living memory of *real* fascist and totalitarian regimes, rather than cinematic depictions thereof. So I think that continental Europeans occasionally can better discern what truly leads to fascism and tyranny and what doesn't.

For example: Allowing your secret services to torture people that haven't been convicted, in places that are unknown, letting nobody outside the inner circle know about it -- dangerous.

Having the parliament vote to advertise the benefits of a law or treaty which it believes has so far been misrepresented -- not so dangerous.

Maybe I should see Europe while it's still possible for me to do so without being arrested.

That's what many Europeans are thinking about America-under-Bush. Not that I agree with them.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 5:54:52 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 5:54:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Aris, some times, well....words fail.
Not that it matters...but yeah, sometimes I'm barefoot indoors, especially in summer, and lots of guys dyed and bleached their hair in high school. If I'm having sushi or Chinese food, I use chopsticks. (Had to learn how to use them in Hong Kong, or else I would have starved....) Anyone who uses a knife and fork to eat barbecue or corn on the cob is an idiot.
None of the above makes me anything other than American. Please find some better examples.....
I never said you were antisemitic. I just took a look at what has been happening in Jewish cemetaries and the reaction to Holocaust education, and implied it from there. That kind of crap, quite frankly, would not be tolerated here. Yet the French do nothing when it happens there (the worst offenders in this regard are the French....but some of the others are trying to catch up.)
And yes, there are libertarians there regarding taxes. But the fact remains, the taxes are there. They are not here.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 5:57:31 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-01-21 5:57:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Aris - Since you've seen fit to use or refer to my comment from yesterday 2 or 3 times in the last 24 hours, perhaps you can now favor us with your understanding of what it meant.

Obviously you understood it intimately, else you would not bandy it about, as if you were the author. If you failed to actually grasp it, then a fair chunk of what you've posted since and hung upon this hook is now a pile poop on the RB living room floor.

So let's hear it.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 6:22:14 PM|| 2005-01-21 6:22:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 but yeah, sometimes I'm barefoot indoors, especially in summer,

Are you barefoot indoors when you are *visiting*. Or when you have guests? By barefoot btw I meant without shoes -- socks are still allowed.

You are talking about exception, when I talk about the rules. That you're doing as the Asians do when having Asian food, is not a point against my argument.

As for the dyed hair, I'm likewise guessing it wasn't entirely a mainstream thing. I'm even guessing that the people doing it were doing it exactly because they didn't see it as mainstream. Tell me if I'm stereotyping here.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 6:24:37 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 6:24:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 .com, your comment was, and I quote: "The Blue Staters are Europeans who, unfortunately for both sides, happen to be here."

To that comment I had responded: "The Blue Staters' home seems to be (by definition) in the blue states."

My interpretation:

-You denied that blue states' culture had a place in the United States, and said that it belonged to Europe instead.
-I, on the other hand, claimed that the blue staters belonged to the blue states (aka America), regardless of whatever similarities they may have in culture with Europe.

But everyone can go and judge by himself: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&ID=54130

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 6:32:22 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 6:32:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 ignore his ignorance - he'll never get over it, and I frankly don't care

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 6:45:59 PM|| 2005-01-21 6:45:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 You preemptively ignored me at #20 already, Frank.

Why are your "ignores" so impotent?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 6:48:50 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 6:48:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 cuz you're a tar baby, hard to resist I guess. go ahead, google tar baby, apparatchik

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 6:52:30 PM|| 2005-01-21 6:52:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 The only tar baby I know are the ones found in the Deadly Rooms of Death (see here) and I think I'll ignore the urge to google up references which might be more relevant.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 6:55:41 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 6:55:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 oh, c'mon! y'all are so up on Merkin culture, I figured you'd know that reference. Uncle Remus? Songs of the South? Briar Patch?

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 6:59:53 PM|| 2005-01-21 6:59:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 I retract my earlier statement where I said that Aris provides insight into another side of an arguement . Yes he is a total fuckwit .. Here is an interesting read .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:00:13 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:00:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 I didn't need a cite, but fine. My point is more that you've transmuted it into a neutral observation, when it was meant as anything BUT neutral, lol!

It was a snarky description of Coulter's sarcastic commentaries that the insanity (commonly referred to as LLL - not a nice polite term) concentrated in the Blue States is aping the European phenomenon of resurrecting socialist, fascist, tranzi OWG - and decidedly not a native American political view. You elevate it to "culture" and ignore the massive negative baggage associated, lol - Coulter would never aggrandize insanity that way, believe me. You are a bit loose with it, dropping the assertion that Coulter (and I) consider the phenomenon to be an insane mish-mash of dangerous and utterly failed ideologies.

To summarize, it is not Neutral, much less Good, it is a form of Insanity that denies the reality of failed ideologies by mindless followers.

But other than that, you've got it.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:00:30 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:00:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Mac - Thanx! Stolen!

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:02:39 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:02:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 LOL - thx too - did same

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:04:39 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:04:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Pleasure - Am sure good 'ol' Aris is feverishly typing away again , in between moping his brow and wiping the foam from his dehydrated soul .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:13:02 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:13:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Frank, if you use "y'all" even as the singular of "you", then you'll need to need "all y'all" as the plural of "y'all" and that's just *ugh*.

So, I think I'll keep on using "y'all" as an American friend of mine tends to do, when I occasionally want to differentiate between the singular and plural forms of the word. A Southern thing, I reckon, or perhaps just a Georgian thing -- not sure.

Alternative is to use "youse" the way some "Philistines up north" do, as I've been told. But that sounds even worse IMO.

.com> the insanity (commonly referred to as LLL - not a nice polite term) concentrated in the Blue States is aping the European phenomenon of resurrecting socialist, fascist, tranzi OWG - and decidedly not a native American political view. You elevate it to "culture" and ignore the massive negative baggage associated, lol

Yeah, I do think I chose to "ignore the massive negative baggage associated". That you meant European to be an insult is not my concern. That (as many extreme right-wingers do) you tend to insultingly compare socialdemocracy (even at its freeest and most democratic) with fascism is not my concern either.

But as for elevating it to "culture"? That's what *you* did when you combined politics with regional tendencies, using words like "Blue Staters" and "European" -- such a connection between region and politics means one thing: the political culture.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:14:16 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:14:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 He can outlast most sane people, I agree.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:14:18 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:14:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 case rested ..

you are a tosser , Aris .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:18:36 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:18:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 What??!!!?

So you're now saying I don't have the free speech right to mean what I mean, I must mean what you want it to mean and you are free to change it at will - yet you denigrate me for it at the same time, lol!

How, um, fascist of you, lol!

Aris The Grate. There can only be One. ROFL!!!

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:20:32 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:20:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Is it a red-state thing, an American thing, or just a MacNails thing, that you think you can win a discussion through insults and screams of "shut up"?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:21:18 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:21:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Aris, just as an FYI, those who, like your Georgian "friend" might say "y'all" as a verbal greeting do not use it as a written greeting unless as an affectation. You would know something about that, IMNSHO

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:21:37 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:21:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Mac - in recompense, heh.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:26:19 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:26:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 mmmmmm

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:27:46 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:27:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Aris, just as an FYI, those who, like your Georgian "friend" might say "y'all" as a verbal greeting do not use it as a written greeting unless as an affectation. You would know something about that, IMNSHO

*You* might use it as an affectation, but I use it to distinguish between plural and singular forms of the word, and so does she.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:29:48 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:29:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 An alternative campaign towards the same, uh, end, heh.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:30:12 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:30:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Aris, were you by any chance abused as a child?

Posted by J.T. Sorenson 2005-01-21 7:30:23 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:30:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Single Aris ? Made a family yet Aris ? I think you havent ( hence your bullshit rhetoric), because in the big picture of life , you really havent a clue . Debate is debate , until you can actually manage yourself usefully i refer to the link STFU .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:32:03 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:32:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Geeze, this thread is getting so long it is starting to have a vanishing point. That's my perspective. Heh heh.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2005-01-21 7:32:13 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:32:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Sorry, J.T., a reasonably carefree and happy childhood.

But rather obnoxious of you to ask. You'd have felt bad if the answer had been "yes" -- kinda like asking a woman "were you raped recently" just because she annoys you.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:33:32 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:33:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 thnx .com . What a fine young clued up lady too !

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:34:00 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:34:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 keep foaming Aris , and when you go to bed , sleep well .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:35:58 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:35:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 MacNails> Yes, indeed single, or I'd have far better things to do with my time than waste it with you tossers.

Actually, I *already* have better things to do with my time than waste it in this thread with you tossers.

Like watching paint dry. I'll get right on it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:36:09 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:36:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 Aris, ain't it terrible when you have to sleep in the wet spot - and you're alone ;-)

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:38:29 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:38:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 cya , wouldnt wanna be ya ... etc ..

Thread burnout anyone ?

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:39:04 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:39:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 uh huh

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-21 7:40:37 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:40:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 Look, everybody, he knows more about America, American politics, American regional speech, well hell, about everything, period, than anyone else on the planet. Isn't it obvious?

It's really about the extreme insecurity that presents in Little Man Syndrome. Commonly seen in those who, by fate or choice, are irrelevant. Utterly. Yet desperate to be important. How they deal with the cold hard reality is what differentiates the insignificant flaming asshole from the merely insignificant.

A kid who's never been anywhere, done anything, carried his own water, served his country, faced anything more threatening than someone dissin' him on the Internet, or even held a professional job - makes perfect sense to me that he would turn out this way when combined with LMS.

And I didn't mention what a pluperfect leech he is.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:41:52 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:41:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 "Annoys" doesn't enter into it, Aris; you don't annoy me at all, actually. But behavior such as yours is usually indicative of something seriously wrong upstairs, and I was just curious.

Glad to hear your childhood was fine and dandy. Carry on.

Posted by J.T. Sorenson 2005-01-21 7:44:38 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:44:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 .com , seeing as I'm feeling 'spot-on' , you get 'intuitive bastard award 2005' - meant in the best possible taste m8 :)

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 7:47:09 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:47:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Musta been that second graphic that put me over the top, lol!

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 7:48:41 PM|| 2005-01-21 7:48:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 Actually, .com, for all your continuous claims that "I claim to know everything about everything" I remember I was recently attacked here for refusing to partake in a European taxation debate (I should have supposedly attacked the eeeeviiil Brussels that are crushing the tiny nations underfoot with their taxation harmonization schemes or something) because I clearly admitted I knew little-to-nothing about economics, the same reason I never talk about currencies, about whether the Euro has been for economy or not, and so forth and so forth.

I've never been elsewhere *outside Europe*. That still lives United Kingdom, France, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic that I've travelled to. Europe's a large place.

I've never "served my country" in the sense that most people here leave it for after they finish their studies, and I've just finished them.

And as for "professional jobs", it's difficult to squeeze a full-time "professional" position in the three months or so between when you finish your academic studies and the time they call you to the army, so I'm satisfying myself with this-and-that paying programming projects.

Back to watching paint dry.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 7:57:04 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 7:57:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 "Back to watching paint dry."

So that's the current euphemism for jacking off in public, who'da thunk it. I'll offer that you watch it very very carefully, popping up every time a molecule of water evaporates - and popping off on the RB carpet.

Your incredible arrogance and utter lack of humility exceed, nay - drown out, all other aspects of your online presence. You are LMS personified.

Your day is coming, sonny, heh heh.

Nighty-night, little one. I leave when I say I'm leaving - so you can bluster and pretend to be my better some more, now. Toodles.

Posted by .com 2005-01-21 8:06:02 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:06:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 My question--- just who is this "rapid reaction force" going to blame when the Parliament building mysteriously burns down immediately after the Constitution is rejected?
Is it too cliche to blame the Jews? Can't blame the Commies for obvious reasons... will it be the Anglos that take the fall? Rapacious capitalists?

Posted by Asedwich 2005-01-21 8:08:20 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:08:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 "my better"

And as a sidenote it vaguely creeps me out when people use "better" as a noun. People are better or worse in this or that aspect, they are not "betters" in their entire beings.

Frank had mentioned something a while ago about the way I deal with "my betters", and it was as if he'd come straight from the "evil Aristocrat cliche" handbook. Or "Evil Slavemaster cliche" perhaps.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 8:13:16 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 8:13:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 No Aris, in English the formal "you" does not necessarily distinguish between plural and singular. It's like the royal "we," or the German "Sie." "y'all" is perfectly correct in terms of linguistic usage when applied in the formal singular. On the other hand, "you people" is somewhat frowned upon in certain regional usages.

Posted by Asedwich 2005-01-21 8:18:19 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:18:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 I wasn't being formal. It's simply a distinction worth making sometimes, and though "y'all" isn't accepted practice, it can still work.

Even though some use it even for the singular.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 8:20:53 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 8:20:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 An arguement is and an arguement , but flogging a dead horse is a different issue ? Or are we as a 'collective' splitting hairs Aris ?

lighter for blue torch paper anyone ( holy shit did i say blue >> please dissect Aris , you irrelavent twat )

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 8:25:46 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:25:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 Sorry, but my l33t linguistic skillz fail to parse that at all.

Repeat in English, if you like. Or better yet, don't.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 8:40:56 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 8:40:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 ignore, I can say no more

Posted by Tom 2005-01-21 8:52:28 PM|| 2005-01-21 8:52:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#101 #99 Sorry, but my l33t linguistic skillz fail to parse that at all . Indeed they did .

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 9:01:33 PM|| 2005-01-21 9:01:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#102 Ok, I'm just dying to be #100.....so here goes, Aris.....
I go barefoot (read, no socks) in my house. It is also customary to kick off your flip-flop sandals in Hawaii at the door and walk around barefoot. I have also done that at my friends' homes, but never a stranger's. I don't want to walk around with socks on....ewww....that just makes 'em dirty and I hate using bleach. It may be different up north, and older people probably don't kick their shoes off at their friends. But my neighbor in her 80's does the same thing.

As for the hair color thing....it was a middle class high school. Some guys did it, by no means all. Most stopped once they had to get a real job. Just try getting a responsible position with metallic blue streaks in your hair.....and, the "is it mainstream" thing is relative. For teenagers, it's no big deal. Walk around with pink hair @ age 50, and quite frankly, you're a freak.

One other thing....Frank G might have pissed you off with his comment about "y'all"...I don't care what your friend from Georgia may have told you, anybody but a genuine southerner really can't use the word without it sounding, well, wrong. It's like if I try to use black slang or call my friends "vatos locos". Even if I know grammatically how to use it, it just sounds awful. Use it with your friend to your heart's content, but please, not here on Rantburg.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 9:11:26 PM|| 2005-01-21 9:11:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#103 an apt phrase Aris (inserted rimshot)>>
'laboured to refine our language to grammatical purity, and to clear it from colloquial barbarisms, licentious idioms, and irregular combinations...'

Eduaction does what ..... again ?

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 9:32:24 PM|| 2005-01-21 9:32:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#104 Desert Blondie> You linguistic conformist, you. ;-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 9:46:33 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 9:46:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#105 And as a sidenote I'm all in favour of colloquial barbarisms, licentious idioms and irregular combinations. :-D

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-21 9:49:34 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-21 9:49:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#106 Indeed you are , but you still fail to realise the significance . :-)

Anyway , I have been summoned to bed , its warm and welcoming . Unlike the attention at 7am approx . ~(when one of my contributions to life wake up .) sleep well Aris . dont get tennis elbow m8 ...

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-21 10:09:17 PM|| 2005-01-21 10:09:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#107 Aris -- Now you REALLY offended me! ;)
Good night, y'all!

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-21 11:21:30 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-01-21 11:21:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#108 The whole "re-vote until they get it right" thing that bothers me. There are so many ways that the EU requires the loss of sovereignty... right down to the cruet.
... striving to submerge identity into "the greater good"...

Posted by Dishman 2005-01-21 11:51:44 PM|| 2005-01-21 11:51:44 PM|| Front Page Top

23:51 Dishman
23:51 Zhang Fei
23:48 .com
23:46 CrazyFool
23:45 Sobiesky
23:44 .com
23:33 Cyber Sarge
23:31 Alaska Paul
23:30 Ptah
23:30 eLarson
23:30 .com
23:27 Captain America
23:21 Desert Blondie
23:18 Atomic Conspiracy
23:14 Grunter
23:11 Alaska Paul
23:06 Dishman
23:06 Hupereger Clish6229 aka Jarhead
23:04 Dishman
23:02 Mike
22:54 Edward Yee
22:45 Hupereger Clish6229 aka Jarhead
22:45 lex
22:43 Alaska Paul