THE mystery fourth London suicide bomber was yesterday unmasked as a fanatical Jamaican Muslim. Convert Germaine Lindsay blew himself to bits at Kingâs Cross, killing at least 25 Tube travellers. Police yesterday confirmed his identity through DNA records â and released CCTV stills of the 18-year-old accomplice who blew up the No30 bus.
Lindsay, in his 30s, is thought to have rented out the Leeds house the gang used as a bomb factory. Three weeks earlier he had been living with his white English partner Samantha Lewthwaite and their one-year-old son Abdulla in a terraced house in Aylesbury, Bucks â raided by cops on Wednesday night.
Last night Lewthwaite, always seen in Muslim dress, was helping police inquiries at a secret location. The family of the 22-year-old student were in shock last night on learning that she was involved with the fourth suicide bomber. Cousin Tony Lewthwaite said he had not heard from Samantha since she converted to Islam 18 months ago. He added: âShe had a happy childhood and a good upbringing. She showed no inclination to convert to Islam until she did it. It was a bolt from the blue. She studied religious education at school in Aylesbury but that was the only thing she ever had to do with religion.â None of the rest of the Lewthwaite family had ever met Lindsay and knew virtually nothing about him.
Yesterday forensic police officers searched the house and garden of the coupleâs £110,000 Aylesbury house. Washing was still on the line and a childâs toy police car could be seen. The family are believed to have rented the house for around three months.
Stocky 5ft 8in Lindsay converted to Islam several years ago and is thought to have been a regular at Brixton Mosque, where shoe bomber Richard Reid and 9/11 plotter Zacharias Moussaoui attended study circles. Reid, 29, from South London, turned to Islam in prison and tried to blow up a flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001. He was a disciple of self-styled Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal â another Jamaican, convicted of soliciting murder in February2003 after urging followers to kill non-Muslims. Nope. No red flags at all.
Police also released an image of Hasib Hussain, caught by CCTV with a large rucksack on his way to blow up the No30 bus in Tavistock Square. Officers believe he originally planned to detonate his device on a Northern Line train, but changed his target because the service was not working. Instead he set off his bomb 57 minutes after the three others. Yesterday it emerged Hussain and fellow suicide bomber Shehzad Tanweer, 22, went to the same Leeds college. Hussain studied business and Tanweer health and fitness.
All four bombers are thought to have been briefed at the Leeds house and had their devices primed by a foreign al-Qaeda mastermind who has now fled the country. They drove from West Yorkshire to Luton, then caught a 7.20am Thameslink train into the capital.
Yesterday Scotland Yard appealed for information from anyone who may have seen Hussain between the time he arrived at Kingâs Cross and when the bus exploded. Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said: âWe need to establish his movements between 8.26am and 9.47am. Did you see this man at Kingâs Cross? Was he alone or with others? Do you know the route he took from the station? Did you see him get on to a No30 bus? And if you did, where and when was that? âWe are also keen to speak with everyone who was on that No30 bus who may not yet have contacted us. We estimate there were 80 people on the bus when it was blown up.â
ANYONE with information should call the Anti-Terrorist Hotline: 0800 789321.
Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 14:54 ||
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#1
whats the current status of Brixton mosque and its imam?
#3
When deporting imams, the Brits should be sure to confiscate all bank accounts. We wouldn't want the imams to use the mosque's zakat money to support jihadis or an ostentatious lifestyle when he arrives in the Olde Countrie. Let his old madrassah support him and his large family in whatever style they choose to afford.
#4
The British should take this opportunity to deport their non-citizen Imans while the left is in disarray. In a few months their lawyers will be fighting any deportations.
#6
"No Red Flags" - agreed, the jury is still out on whether these young people were true suicidists, or else were just naive, innocent dupes for the malicious schemes of others.
One of the London suicide bombers met in 2003 with a man later arrested for a church bombing in Pakistan, an intelligence official said on Friday.
Pakistani security agencies are investigating possible links between militant groups based in Pakistan and Shehzad Tanweer, a Briton of ethnic-Pakistani origin who was one of four bombers in the July 7 attack that killed at least 54 people.
One of the groups being checked is Jaish-e-Mohammad (Army of Mohammad), linked to al Qaeda and banned by Pakistan in 2002.
The other group is Lashkar-e-Taiba, which like Jaish has a record of fighting in Indian Kashmir, but unlike Jaish has a reputation for tight discipline and is not known to have any operational ties with al Qaeda. WTF? Who writes this stuff?
One Pakistani intelligence source said Tanweer visited Pakistan in 2003 and 2004.
During the first visit, the source said, Tanweer met Osama Nazir, who was arrested last December for the 2002 bombing of a church in Islamabad that killed two Americans among others.
"He met Osama Nazir in a mosque in Faisalabad," an intelligence official said. Tanweer's family comes from Faisalabad, a city in eastern Pakistan.
Nazir was a member of Jaish, and security agents called in Jaish supremo Maulana Azhar Masood on Thursday for questioning.
"So far all leads are heading toward Jaish-e-Mohammad," an intelligence official said.
British-born Islamic militant Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, now under sentence of death for the murder of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002, was also believed to be a member of Jaish.
Another intelligence official said Tanweer, 22, had made a second visit to Pakistan in late 2004 and had stayed in the city of Lahore from December until last February, during which he visited several mosques and madrassahs, or religious schools.
One madrassah was in Muridke, on the outskirts of Lahore and home of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, a hardline Islamic charity organization made up of cadres of Lashkar-e-Taiba.
"We are looking into whether Tanweer had any links with these people," the second intelligence official said.
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf banned both Jaish and Lashkar but they later resurfaced under new names.
On Friday, after promising British Prime Minister Tony Blair Pakistan's "fullest support and assistance" in the investigation into the London bombings, Musharraf ordered police chiefs to launch a new campaign against the radical Islamist groups.
He instructed them to crack down on banned groups collecting donations, displaying arms, holding of gatherings and to confiscate all pamphlets and videos inciting hatred.
"Pakistan ... stands at a crossroads in its history and there is an urgent need to address extremism existing on the fringes of its society," an official statement quoted Musharraf as saying.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 10:07 ||
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#1
Maybe we provide Pakistan with complementary airport thumbprint scanners for arriving passengers - as long as they provide us with the records produced. They are our ally, afterall.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/15/2005 12:27 Comments ||
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#2
WTF? Who writes this stuff?
Pak intelligence writes this stuff. The Reuters reporter is relaying this verbatim from his source.
Nonsense of course but Pak ISI has to keep the LeT functional. The jihad in Kashmir will die without it.
And Kashmir is what it is all about for the Paks.
The Pakistani economist Shahid Javed Burki has written a series of articles on the cost to Pakistan of its Kashmir adventure (starting with the 1965 war and including the jihad launched in 1987-88).
âIf the country had not gotten embroiled in the Kashmir dispute, it would appear that the countryâs long-term growth rate could have been some two to two and half percentage points higher than that actually achieved,â
"From a higher growth rate it naturally follows that over a period of half a century, Pakistanâs GDP could have been three and a half times larger than that in 2003-4â
Lost GDP at US$330 billion
Prior to the Pak military adventures, the Pak economy was a role model for other states.
Incredibly, South Korean delegations would visit to observe Pak industrialization.
They've destroyed their country because they wanted Kashmir (so they could then destroy India).
If they stop the jihad, what do they have?
What was it all for?
Posted by: john ||
07/15/2005 13:05 Comments ||
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At least two men who have connections to last week's London bombings are alive and still at large.
The first is a man, who was seen on surveillance tapes at Luton station, located outside of London, as he bid farewell to the four bombers the morning of the attacks. The other is Magdy El Nashar, an Egyptian chemist, who attended and received training at North Carolina State University.
British police think El Nashar may have helped the London group build their bombs before leaving England two weeks before the attacks. They have since issued a worldwide alert for him.
The picture shows Hasib Hussain, 18, at the Luton train station at 7:20 a.m., one week ago today. Two-and-a-half hours later, his backpack full of explosives was detonated. It killed him and 13 others on a crowded double-decker bus.
Now police are on the search for answers to how such a plot was carried out. "Who supported them? Who financed them?" asked Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of the Anti-Terrorist Branch of the Metropolitan Police. "Who trained them? Who encouraged them?"
Officials tell ABC News the London bombers have been connected to an al Qaeda plot planned two years ago in the Pakistani city of Lahore.
The laptop computer of Naeem Noor Khan, a captured al Qaeda leader, contained plans for a coordinated series of attacks on the London subway system, as well as on financial buildings in both New York and Washington.
"There's absolutely no doubt he was part of an al Qaeda operation aimed at not only the United States but Great Britain," explained Alexis Debat, a former official in the French Defense Ministry who is now a senior terrorism consultant for ABC News.
At the time, authorities thought they had foiled the London subway plot by arresting more than a dozen young Britons of Pakistani descent last August in Luton, a city known for its ties to terrorism.
"For some time, the locus of terrorism in Britain has been around the Luton area and in some of the northern cities," said Michael Clark, professor of defense at King's College in London.
Security officials tell ABC News they have discovered links between the eldest of the London bombers, Mohammed Sadique Khan, 30, and the original group in Luton. Officials also believe it was not a coincidence the subway bombers all met at the Luton train station last week.
"It is very likely this group was activated last year after the other group was arrested," Debat said.
One of Khan's friends informed the BBC today that Khan had undergone training for explosives at terror camps in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. This piece of information only strengthened the London-Pakistani connection.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 09:57 ||
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The British suicide bombers who killed 54 people in London were likely trained by al Qaeda but did not receive direct orders from its top leaders, London's police chief says.
Ian Blair made the statements yesterday after Britain came to a standstill for two minutes of silent tribute to the victims of last week's bombings.
Hours later, police released a chilling picture captured by closed-circuit cameras of British-born Hasib Hussain, 18, on his way to unleash carnage with a 4.5-kilogram bomb inside a backpack strapped to his shoulders.
"Al Qaeda clearly has the ability to provide training, to provide briefing, to provide expertise and that is what I think has occurred here and this is what occurred in Madrid," Blair said, referring to the Spanish attacks that killed 191 people last year.
"But if one is suggesting that people from the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan were directly involved in this, the answer's no," he told journalists, referring to the location where Osama bin Laden and his deputies are believed to be hiding.
Further evidence of an al Qaeda link to the bombing came from reports yesterday by both The Times newspaper and Newsnight, BBC's flagship current affairs program.
Both quoted police sources saying that a man involved with al Qaeda entered the country by ferry a couple of weeks before the attacks and flew out the day before the four suicide bombers â three were British-born â blew up three subway cars and a bus.
He's described as the mastermind of the plot by The Times. But the BBC says it's not known whether he met with the bombers, three of whom lived in Leeds, in northern England, and one in Aylsbury, northwest of London.
The suspect was on a "watch list" but was not put under surveillance once inside Britain because he wasn't high enough on the list, the BBC reported.
If confirmed, the news raises questions about whether police could have foiled the bombings by refusing the suspect entry, or by keeping an eye on him once in the country.
There are also reports that police have found a large quantity of acetone peroxide in one of the raided houses in Leeds. Al Qaeda camps trained recruits on how to handle the volatile explosive, which can be made from chemicals bought at pharmacies.
Convicted British shoe bomber Richard Reid had an explosive mixture of the chemical in his shoe when he tried to blow up a flight to the United States.
The discovery, which has caused hundreds of people to be evacuated in Leeds and a no-fly zone to be imposed over the neighbourhood, raises the possibility that the chemical was used in the attack rather than commercial or military explosives.
The bombers have been identified as Shahzad Tanweer, 22, a cricket-loving sports science graduate; Hasib Hussain, 18; and Mohammed Sidique Khan, the 30-year-old father of an eight-month-old baby. All three were born and raised in Britain.
The fourth bomber has been identified in media reports as Jamaica-born Briton Lindsey Germaine, who rented a house in Aylsbury with his family four months ago.
For the first time, police specifically referred to all four as suicide bombers.
"We are certain that the four people were killed and they were the four people carrying the bombs," Blair said.
"It's important to recognize that these were not suicide bombers in the shape that we have seen in Sri Lanka and in Palestine and Israel. There were no waistcoats full of explosives. These were people carrying bags and they died there."
Said police anti-terrorist chief, Peter Clarke: "We need to establish a number of things ... who supported them, who financed them, who trained them, who encouraged them. This will take many months of intensive detailed investigations."
FBI agents in Raleigh, N.C., joined the search for an Egyptian chemist, Magdi el-Nashar, a 33-year-old former North Carolina State University graduate student, Associated Press reported. He had recently taught at Leeds University and is believed to be connected to the bombings.
The photo of Hussain released by police shows him carrying his deadly load at 7:20 a.m. last Thursday at the Luton station, north of London, where all four bombers met and took the train to the capital.
While three of the bombers blew up subway trains almost simultaneously at 8:50 a.m., Hussain blew up a double-decker bus at 9:47 a.m., killing 13 people.
"Did you see this man at King's Cross?" Clarke asked in a televised appeal. "Was he alone or with others? Do you know the route he took ... Did you see him get on to a No. 30 bus?
The scope of the plot may be wider than yet imagined: "We don't know if there is a fifth man, or a sixth man, a seventh man, or an eighth man," Blair said.
Before Hussain's photo was made public, the city of almost eight million people came to a virtual stop at noon when Big Ben, the House of Commons clock, rang the start of two minutes of silent tribute for the dead.
At the normally heaving intersections around King's Cross, the subway station where at least 26 people were killed, black cabs, red double-decker buses and anything on wheels came to a stop.
Along the sidewalk, people stood in silence under the searing sun, many with their heads bowed, some clutching flowers and crying.
At the station, where bodies are still trapped in the subway, people stood in front of a courtyard that has been transformed into a shrine to the victims.
Flowers are piled high in a circle, with messages proclaiming grief and defiance. "From Muslims everywhere," reads one. "Our hearts are heavy with the horror of these attacks."
At Buckingham Palace, the Queen stood outside the palace gates. At the British Open, Tiger Woods removed his hat and bowed his head at the 14th hole. Oxford Street emptied its stores, and police chiefs investigating the deadliest attack in London since World War II paid tribute in front of Scotland Yard.
"With quiet dignity and respect, we show our deep contempt to those who planted the bombs and those who masterminded them," said George Psaradakis, who was driving the bus that was bombed by Hussain.
"Let us send a message to the terrorists: You will not defeat us and you will not break us," he said before the silence began at a bus depot in east London.
Later, at a vigil in Trafalgar Square, Mayor Ken Livingstone told thousands that London defeated the bombers by continuing to act like "the most tolerant city in the world."
"Those who came here to kill last Thursday had many goals, but one was that we should turn on each other like animals trapped in a cage. And they failed, they failed totally and utterly."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 09:54 ||
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An Egyptian biochemist arrested Friday in Cairo in connection with the London bombings taught at a British university after taking graduate courses in North Carolina.
Magdy el-Nashar, 33, was arrested early Friday, an Egyptian government official said on condition of anonymity because an official announcement of the arrest had not been made. El-Nashar was being interrogated by Egyptian authorities, the official said.
Metropolitan Police in London said a man has been arrested in Cairo, but they would not confirm his name or characterize him as a suspect in the London subway and double-decker bus bombings that killed at least 54 people.
``We're aware of an arrest in Cairo, but we are not prepared to discuss who we may or may not wish to interview in connection with this investigation (into the London bombings,'' Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
``This remains a fast-moving investigation with a number of lines of inquiry, some of which may have an international dimension.''
The British Embassy in Cairo said it had no comment beyond the Metropolitan Police statement.
The Egyptian official did not elaborate on el-Nashar's arrest.
British and FBI officials were looking for el-Nashar, who recently had been teaching chemistry at Leeds University, north of London. The Times of London said el-Nashar was believed to have rented one of the homes police searched in Leeds in a series of raids Tuesday.
The four other men also believed to have been involved in the bombings all had connections to the Leeds area.
Neighbors reported el-Nashar recently left Britain, saying he had a visa problem, the newspaper said.
Leeds University said el-Nashar arrived in October 2000 to do biochemical research, sponsored by the National Research Center in Cairo, Egypt. It said he earned a doctorate on May 6.
FBI agents in Raleigh, N.C., had joined the search for el-Nashar, a former graduate student at North Carolina State University.
University spokesman Keith Nichols said a person named el-Nashar studied at North Carolina State as a graduate student in chemical engineering for a semester beginning in January 2000. Nichols said the school has gathered records in anticipation of being contacted by the FBI.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 09:40 ||
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Severely EFL. Read the whole thing.
THREE years ago Muhammed Yusuf was approached by two strangers who tried to recruit him as a suicide bomber.
Emphasis mineThe 18-year-old has already informed anti-terrorist police about his encounter with the hardliners at a North London mosque. Here he tells MATT ROPER what happened:
THEIR words, spoken with calm and conviction, were powerful and persuasive. But as I realised they wanted me to become a martyr for the cause of Islam I felt sick to the stomach.
"You'll go instantly to heaven," they repeated. "All the problems and pain in your life will go away. You'll be rewarded for all eternity."
For two weeks two men had befriended and groomed me. I was just 14, naive yet idealistic, and I had no idea why they were so interested in me. But after days of observing me, the moment had arrived to finally come clean.
They wanted me to avenge the deaths of my Muslim brothers and sisters around the world.
They said: "If you commit suicide for your own reasons you'll bring shame on your family and go straight to hell, Jahanam. But if you end your life fighting for the cause of Islam, you'll be rewarded for all eternity. And you'll see your [recently deceased] dad again really soon."
Emphasis mine again.For a moment what they said made sense. I am a deeply committed Muslim, prepared to give my life for my faith. What happens to me in eternity is far more important than this mortal, transient life.
#2
What happens to me in eternity is far more important than this mortal, transient life.
I think that's why he didn't sign on. Near the end of the article, he says:
But as I remembered my father's life of prayer and peace, and the teachings I had grown up with, I knew these men had nothing to do with Islam. Killing innocent people to prove a point wasn't going to change the world, and certainly wasn't a passport to heaven.
Posted by: Mike ||
07/15/2005 10:15 Comments ||
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#3
In the afterlife are you expected to cough up a virgin or two to the guy who recruits you or does Allan take care of the recruiter on his own like the commission for a travel agent?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/15/2005 13:08 Comments ||
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#4
and he still believes in Islam
and he still believes the propaganda in the jihad videos
EFL
Plans by an alliance of rightwing extremists and football hooligans to exact "revenge" on Muslims after last week's bomb attacks are being monitored by police. The Guardian has learned that extremists are keen to cause widespread fear and injury with attacks on mosques and high-profile "anti-Muslim" events in the capital.
Football hooligans communicating over the internet have spoken of the need to put aside partisan support for teams and unite against Muslims. Hooligans from West Ham, Millwall, Crystal Palace and Arsenal are among those seeking to establish common cause.
The synergy between rightwing extremists and football hooligans is not new. Throughout the 1980s, some of the biggest clubs in Britain were plagued by notoriously violent and racist followers. FYI: Muslim's do not constitute a race. Arabs do. So therefore, your application of the term racist may in this case be misdirected. Or biased.
#3
Football hooligans communicating over the internet have spoken of the need to put aside partisan support for teams and unite against Muslims. Hooligans from West Ham, Millwall, Crystal Palace and Arsenal are among those seeking to establish common cause.
#8
Yeah, Ship, quietly? And note that the football guyz and far righties are the extremeists, not those that would blow up others and themselves to get 72 raisins.
Posted by: BA ||
07/15/2005 14:32 Comments ||
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#9
"Throughout the 1980s, some of the biggest clubs in Britain were plagued by notoriously violent and racist followers.
FYI: Muslim's do not constitute a race. Arabs do. So therefore, your application of the term racist may in this case be misdirected. Or biased."
where did he say that football hooligans were ANTIMUSLIM and thus racist. He simply indicated that they are racist. Which could well be true. Ive never heard that football hooligans are particularly fond of Hindus, Christian west indians, etc. Have you?
#13
NOT GOOD.......EXCELLENT!! Kill every mooselimb you see. Blow up every goddamn mosque outside the middle east. mosques are nothing more than toilets...full of shitballs. mooselimbs are shiteatin' fools. I'm anxiously awaiting my chance to kill one of 'em. It's like steppin' on a cockroach.
Posted by: Tom Dooley ||
07/15/2005 19:29 Comments ||
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#14
My goodness, Mr. Dooley. You sound just like the jihadis. Would you kill all the little Muslim children you see, too?
#15
#14 mrs. trailing wife..... You know all those little bitty cockroaches.......they're cockroaches too.
Maybe, just maybe....if those cockroaches saw all their little cockroaches being exterminated it would make them question the wisdom of their actions. Their whole reason to exist, according to the queeran, is to kill NON-mooselimbs. They're going to kill you, mrs. trailing wife,....and your sweet, cuddly little child/grandchild.
Think of steppin' on those little cockroaches, as postnatal abortion.
Posted by: Tom Dooley ||
07/15/2005 20:45 Comments ||
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#16
Trailing wife, the cycle repeats if you spare the male children.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 20:50 Comments ||
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#17
Think of steppin' on those little cockroaches, as postnatal abortion.
The RULES of Warfare have developed over tens of centuries, and are largely uniform the world over. The Rules of Warfare are what the jihadi islamofascists are violating in spades, and why (under the Rules of Warfare) they can be exterminated wherever they can be found. We cannot, must not, and will not violate the Rules of Warfare.
The islamofascist jihadis are counting on us, and our populations to retaliate in a fashion that violates the Rules of Warfare so that they can provoke and inflame the entire Muslim world and start a World War over religion -- which they believe they will win. They cannot win without starting a World War. They cannot start a World War so long as we do not violate the Rules of War.
There, a logical explanation, Tom Dooley, for why you shouldnât be a sick f8c!.
#18
if these people are really bent on exacting revenge on Muslims let them not choose Muslims at random as many of them are law abiding people. let them instead target the clerics of hatred who are inciting with their lies vulnerable and illiterate young people
#19
Well, mr./mrs./or both, #17.....What in the hell is an f8c! ????. I don't know whether or not to be offended.
RULES OF WAR?? Among nations perhaps, with UNIFORMED soldiers, on a battlefield, but not faceless cockroaches who WORM their way into our lives and blow up our children. I only know one way to fight....and that is, fight to WIN! When you fight you give everything you've got to defeat the enemy who wants to destroy your family and property. My family and property are worth more to me than all the little cockroaches. Your family and property must not mean that much to you.
Would you trade the life of your child for the life of a little mooselimb cockroach? You're gonna....
Posted by: Tom Dooley ||
07/15/2005 21:16 Comments ||
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#20
Rule #1 is to win.
Rule #2 is to minimize losses on our side, preferably by fighting on their turf.
We did not win WWII by sparing the women and children in places like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden...
The enemy must conclude that we will annihilate them, and they will only conclude that if we have the means and demonstrate the will.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 21:26 Comments ||
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#21
I'd like to see the unemployed youths of seething islamics tangle with the tougher seething football fans. Might remind them what humiliation really is, and why assimilation or getting the fu*k out are the two best options.
My motto: Nothing says "I strongly disagree" like a fractured skull
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 21:33 Comments ||
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#22
#20, EXACTLY!! And like Fonzi told Richie Cunningham, once upon a time. This is paraphrased, "You can have all the means you want, for kicking somebody's ass. But, if you've never actually kicked somebody's ass......."
Posted by: Tom Dooley ||
07/15/2005 21:39 Comments ||
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#23
One has to go after the leaders, imams, and instigators. Be it the law or be it like a group like Arsenal. Take off the head and the body of the beast will hopefully go away. How it will be done will depend upon the will of the government and of the people. That is the task at hand. Destroying kids is a last resort, and that is where total war comes in. I certainly hope that we do not get to that point. It will depend upon how governments deal with the problem of terrorists in our midsts. I am not optimistic, but I can still hope.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/15/2005 21:53 Comments ||
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#24
The VDH thread from today has great bearing on this:
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?HC=4&ID=124143&D=2005-07-15
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 21:56 Comments ||
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#2
Let's see. The British are being roundly punished for signing onto the Kyoto accord, and now they're being punished for signing onto the ICC. Haw-haw.
Now what dumbasses in the US supported both agreements? Hmmm?
#3
Goes to show that even the Brits have elements within their society whom have no prob of Brit warriors - men or women - fighting a War, only with them winning the War!? Good ole Lefty-Socie SECULAR MORALISM strikes again, the Thetics of Anti-Theticism, the anti-Politics of Politics, where PC has a PC all its own.
Britain's heir to the throne Prince Charles has called on all Muslims to help "root out" those in their community who preach hatred.
Good idea. I was suggesting it just yesterday. I don't think they'll do it, though...
It is the "duty of every true Muslim" to condemn last week's suicide bombings in London which killed at least 52 people, Charles said in Thursday's edition of the Daily Mirror newspaper. According to newspapers, the four bombers, three of whom have been named, were British Muslims of Pakistani origin.
To no one's surprise except maybe the Mirror's...
Muslims in the country must "root out those among them who preach and practise such hatred and bitterness", wrote Charles. A "deeply evil influence" must have been brought to bear on the "impressionable young minds" of the bombers, the prince wrote. However, he stressed that Islam was not the cause of the terrorism and that most Muslims had condemned the attacks. "Some may think this cause is Islam. It is anything but. It is a perversion of traditional Islam," he said. He added: "Those who claim to have murdered in the name of Islam have no care for the lives they have so brutally destroyed. Offended by the good relations between faiths and cultures, the extremists seek to break up the communities that make up our modern, multi-cultural society."
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
Further proof than aristocratic inbreeding can cause severe neurological abnormalities, if any was needed.
#5
Heh, JFM - George W (the other W, lol!) is / was a true treasure. Amazing and incomparable. Words fail to describe how lucky we are for the confluence of people, events, factors - everything that came together. And W was the unerring hub.
#8
Charles man be a bit dense but this ultimately could come out well.
1. he has taken some tentative steps to champion the cause of Islamic apostates - the cause being that they shouldn't be murdered by faithful moslems
2. he has drunk heavily of the RoP cup; so much so that he has taken public positions that Islam really is a RoP -- if he notices that the hate speech of the british Imans isn't stopping he may actually say 'the hate speech of the british Imans isn't stopping' --- this would be a big step in the awakening (or more likely the end of the self delusion) of the non islamic elite
Posted by: Darth VAda ||
07/15/2005 19:03 Comments ||
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#10
Good catch, DV - I didn't really look beyond Gen Howe who, "critics agree" (lol!) that:
On August 26th, when General Lee retreated to Brooklyn Heights after his defeat on Long Island, if Howe had attacked the Patriots again at this point, the British would have destroyed the Patriot army and (likely) won the war.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, well, we'd all need to go to the Dentist...
THE country's most radical Islamic cleric said yesterday he doubted whether the London bombers were Muslim, saying their actions were un-Islamic. Melbourne's Sheik Mohammed Omran said he would reserve judgment about the religious identity of the London bombers until more evidence emerged about them.
Sheik Omran said earlier this week that September 11 was not committed by Muslims and Osama bin Laden had no involvement, comments that John Howard branded yesterday "extraordinary and irresponsible". While he described the London bombings as evil, Sheik Omran doubted they were carried out by true Muslims, since millions of Londoners marched against the Blair Government's involvement in the war in Iraq. He said it was more likely the attacks were orchestrated by the US to justify its war on Islam. "That is absolutely what I believe it is," he said. "It could be (to initiate a war) against Islam, it could be against Muslim countries, just to give them a free hand to do whatever they want."
Sheik Omran said that while Australian imams should, and do, teach their congregation against committing such attacks, they could not be held responsible if a similar attack occurred here. "Imams are teachers, we are teachers, but you have in your class hundreds of people and how can you know what they are all thinking?" he said at his Islamic centre in Melbourne's Brunswick yesterday. He said if a member of his controversial prayer hall, which follows a fundamental strand of Islam, wanted to become a suicide bomber, "I would tell them you are a foolish person".
The leader of the Sydney arm of Sheik Omran's group also condemned the attacks as unacceptable. Sheik Abdul Salam Zoud said all members of the Australian community needed to play roles in preventing attacks in future. He said some younger Australian Muslims might think that becoming suicide bombers was a last-resort attempt to correct the many injustices against fellow Muslims around the world. But this was incorrect and he discouraged such thinking.
Sheiks Zoud and Omran, both from the Al Sunna Wal Jamah organisation, have attracted controversy in recent years after several followers were charged with terrorism offences. ASIO closely monitors their Sydney and Melbourne prayer halls and services. Sheik Omran has also been linked in court documents to Spanish al-Qaeda leader Abu Dahdah.
#1
Anyone else notice how much these apologists sound like the Dhimmidonk "leadership"? An utter disdain for the truth, immediately taking their trademark instant "out" whenever cornered (Jooos and Rove), concerned only with their own image and game - never with the consequences of the behavior of those they're disingenuously disavowing, the whole routine of reality denial. Never a fess-up. Hallmarks of those who have no shame and, thus, are incorrigibly corrupt and beyond rehab or redemption.
#2
I'd offer that removing these mooks from the "breathing" status is a communal good - a little bleach in the gene pool
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 0:50 Comments ||
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#3
Yep, couldn't have been mooslims 'cause mooslims is peaceful folk. Jeez, the stuff that passes for logic in the islamic world!
Seems to me that if Western leaders were so morally bankrupt that they would bomb their own citizens, there would be nothing stopping them from nuking Mecca and blaming it on the Joos. Not that I'm advocating a coordinated time-on-target TLAM/Nighthawk strike as an object lesson in who not to mess with or anything.
#4
Lol, SteveS! Careful now, someone might construe your last statement to be something other than the peaceful loving bon mot most of us know it to be... There be some touched touchy folks 'round these parts.
#5
He does look the part. Scary thing is that there are surely fellow idiots who follow this scum's words and facny him an intelligent leader. Most segments of society can call their ugly nasty freaks for what they are and act accordinly but a very large number of muslims can't or won't. Why would that be so?
#6
"Yep, couldn't have been mooslims 'cause mooslims is peaceful folk" Exactly and since Christians don't have a problem being buried in pigfat we should just bury all suicide bombers in pigfat. There should be no complaints from the Muslim community since they aren't real Muslims, or not good Muslims or whatever.
Italy will not allow the United States or any other country to bring its own security personnel to guard athletes during next February's Winter Olympics, the government official in charge of the Games said on Thursday.
"Italy is perfectly able to guarantee security," Mario Pescante, Undersecretary and Extraordinary Commissioner for the Turin Olympics, told a news conference.
"I exclude categorically that the U.S. team or any other team will be able to bring people for their own security..." Why do I suspect that several teams will suddenly triple the size of their "training staff", and recieve "diplomatic pouches" in big steel boxes from their embassies?
#4
So an extra assualt carrier parks near Northern Italy and Aviano gets an expanded "security force" following a "terrorist threat".
Seriously,I doubt even Islamic terrorists are stupid enough to attack the Olympics. Maybe Rome or somewhere else during them,but not the Olympics.
Posted by: Stephen ||
07/15/2005 19:39 Comments ||
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#5
fine - Italy is held totally responsible for the safety of our athletes and staff . They just added 45,000 needed agents on THEIR budget
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 21:45 Comments ||
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#6
I can see Italy's problem. Where do you draw the line? If you let the U.S. come armed, how about the U.K.? Turkey? Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Better that everyone check their weapons at the door.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 21:50 Comments ||
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#7
Just like Jackson Hole. Wherever liquor's served you'll find pegs by the door. Hnag 'em up and c'mon in.
- childhood memories working on a Dude Ranch
#8
The countries bribing competing for oleo-lympic venues have no concept of the bottom line. They are in it for the prestige. Their taxpayers are held captive while the promotors raid the treasury to cover cost explosions. Just like Greece....heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/15/2005 22:07 Comments ||
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PARIS (AFP) -- Violence that spilled over from France's Bastille Day celebrations saw about 200 cars set on fire, dozens detained and clashes between youths and security forces, police said.
Most of the incidents happened in the greater Paris region Wednesday night as the French began festivities for the country's July 14 national holiday. Clashes between youths and police in the suburbs of Paris saw police use shoulder-held grenade launchers. One police officer was injured and taken to hospital.
The door of a synagogue in Stains, a suburb north of Paris, was damaged by a Molotov cocktail.
Police called to deal with a car fire in Etampes in the Essone region south of Paris were met by stone-throwers. A policeman was slightly hurt in the same region after a youth threw a firecracker into a patrol car.
#6
There are about officially 1000 "zones de non-droit" in France : "unlawful zone, ie places where the police, firefighters, EMT,... cannot go anymore except in commando-style raids or with excessive show of force, where the State authority's been largely remplaced by semi-organized crime's, and where islamization is rampant.
This is a terrible loss of sovereignty, and all that's opposed to it is appeasement, appeasement, appeasement,... both from local (just one example, recently there was riots after a police intervention in one suburb, and the french mayor wrote a letter to muslim org apologizing for the intervention and blaming on the prefect) and from national authorities (multiculturalism and affirmative action being the new trends : build more mosque, give more visas,...).
There is a low-level intifada going on in France with a high level of insecurity, most of it coming from the muslim population (that's not a racist comment, that's a fact recently acknowledged by one MSM newsmag "Le Point" citing official stats, 75% of all processed through the justice system are muslim/non-european born).
This translates in *ten of thousands* of torched cars every year, *systematical* riots after arrests, ambushes of police, stoning of firefighters or EMT, vandalism of churches, graveyards, of schools, not to mention numerous assault agaisnt persons, including gangrapes, murders, beatings,... All this with a relative impunity, the justice is way too laxist, and the police is uneffective, underfunded and paralyzed by PC and the gvt.
The word intifada is not exaggerated, this is really a continous, low-key revolt against symbols of authorities and "frenchness", driven by what can be called "arab-muslim" nationalism, with strong racist undertones (a real taboo, somewhat weakened by the march assault on a student demonstration, where the sons and daughters of the PC crowd were beaten up because they were "whitey" and "unable to fight back because they're french") and fueled by the official "anti-zionist" french policy (not realizing this will backfires in a big way, it already does, as the muslim suburbs identify themselves with paleos) and by a still revolutionnary (if very fashionable) far-left that has found a new proletariat.
I live in a secure rural area, but you should ask JFM (who's a parisian I reckon, and anyway more knowledgeable and well-read) for more infos.
This insecurity saps the Republic at the bottom, while EU transnationalism and the subversion of muslim orgs saps it at the top. Perhaps there is no conspiracy, but it is still very "effective".
Hard times for France in the coming decades (years?), as there is a dramatic shift in population, and money runs out...
If you speak french, I really recommand you to check the http://www.france-echos.com/index.php site, which has some very good analysis of this situation (very large archives).
So, um, I guess you're saying it's too late for the Big Hug thingy?
IIRC, one of Sarkozy's selling points to the French electorate (besides the veil coup, lol) was that he muttered he would clean up Francostan - do I have that right?
#8
Sarkozy appeals to the National Front voters by looking tough on crime, BUT he also appeals to muslim voters by being muslim-friendly... ie he's playing both sides of the cards.
Not only has he set up the CFCM (official representative council of the "french" muslim, which is a farce democracy-wise and is remote-controlled by Algeria, Morocco or the Gulf, and in which the main force is the UOIF, the french muslim brotherhood), which was a legacy from his predecessors, it's true, but he also promotes affirmative action, promotes multiculturalism, has offed the "double peine" law (the expellation of foreign criminals), plans on softening regulations regarding illegal aliens, want to *increase* legal immigration through his quotas proposal,...
When when it comes to acts, so far he's all talk and no show, his first stint as interior minister didn't bring anything except statistical tinkering and appeasement, and as a finance minister he was interventionnist. He talks tough and decisive, and play the media very well, but there is little substance. To me, he's a young Chirac.
Sarko is *very* ambitious, he definitively wants to be president and will do anything to see that happen; only thing I like about him, except that he's Chirac current archnemesis, is that he's more free market and atlantist than most of the so-called "conservative". So far, he's the only credible alternative on the right.
Sarko's definitively part and parcel of the stablishment, you shouldn't expect much from him. One hint : after the Perpignan race riots (muslim vs gypsies), he went there to do his "sarkoshow"; as one angry onlooker told him "the problem is having too much muslims in the first place", he elegantly responded "Piss off!"...
I much prefer Philippe de Villiers, a catholic conservative with a great sense of humor, and much clearer views on islam (at least when he's talking on conservative Radio-Courtoisie...); perhaps JFM will think otherwise, I don't know. Anyway, I'm so disillusionned, I haven't voted for years except for the EU constitution, french pols disgust me.
For material on Sarko, see this dissident UMP site (in french) http://www.union-republicaine-populaire.com/main.html
#9
A5089 - I know a place where you'd be very welcome. We have many of the same problems, of course, and leaders who sound just like Sarko, lol, but they're out of power - and very likely to stay out of power at the rate they're going. Just a thought, lol!
Thx for the detail - again, excellent!
What's your take on Sabine Herold - or any other non-idiotarian politician? I assume she fits in that category, it's damned hard to tell over here from mere press reports of extremely biased and questionable veracity, lol!
#11
It's not the french who are revolting, it's a low-key, low budget civil war in the begining, started by unassimilated muslims.
So far this is manageable and pretty much covered up by the media, which hide it in plain sight, but in the coming years it may evolve into something else. Future's not looking bright.
#12
I have always thought Paris was just another Detriot, without a championship NBA team.
Posted by: David Stern ||
07/15/2005 12:11 Comments ||
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#13
OBL: "Is Paris Burning?"
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 12:17 Comments ||
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#14
A5089, your response is definitely articulate, and very informative, from a different perpective than JFM. And while True German Ally is correct that someone needs to stay on your side of the pond to fight the good fight, do please let us know when you are ready to move over here -- you'll find a very long list of sponsors. :-)
#15
I know some of you are going to tell me I'm crazy but I have serious hopes for France's ability to handle the Muzzy infection. My reason for optimism is that France, since WWII, hasn't seemed to give a damn for anyone else's opinion about anything and has always operated in what she perceived to be her own best interest. When it becomes clear to the enarques who run France that it's either expel the 'Slims or go under, I think there will be boatloads of immigrant and beur Muslims headed for the Maghreb with one-way tickets. The French in 1962 Algeria faced a choice between the suitcase or the coffin. I suspect France's Muslims will have to make the same choice sometime in the next decade.
Posted by: mac ||
07/15/2005 22:59 Comments ||
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From Compass Direct
A Protestant pastor in the Turkish industrial city of Izmit woke up yesterday morning to find a huge red swastika painted on his apartment door, with a handwritten hate letter shoved underneath. In high-school-level Turkish, the writer threatened the safety of Wolfgang Hade and his family unless they left the country within a month. A German citizen, Hade is married to a Turkish national of Christian background. The hate letter questioned whether Hade was really serving Christianity or being âusedâ to attack Turkish values. ....
Together with his wife and small daughter, Hade has lived for the past three and one-half years in Izmit, near the epicenter of Turkeyâs disastrous 1999 earthquake in western Turkey. Their small congregation of 15 to 20 Turkish Protestants worship in a two-story building purchased through the foundation of their parent church in Istanbul. The Izmit Protestant Church was targeted in a violent attack the night after Christmas last year, when someone started a fire next to the outside wall of the building. ....
The string of Izmit attacks are not isolated cases. Over the past six months, vigilante groups in at least four other Turkish cities have also threatened Protestant church workers and attacked their places of worship. Simultaneously, the Turkish media has fanned intense criticism of Christian missionary activity. Even government ministers have spoken out, claiming that foreign missionaries had political motives aimed at âdamaging the social peace and unity of Turkey.â ....
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
As we open our arms and wallets to Muslim vermin, Christians (and Hindus and Buddhists, etc) are being ethnically cleansed from the Muslim tyrannies. What do you suggest?
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/15/2005 1:30 Comments ||
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#2
Okay, don't numerous Western books andor Muslim Activists like to make the point that as long as non-Muslims pay certain fees to the local Muslim authorities/govts., the non-Muslims will be left alone, with limited acts of proselytizing tolerated or allowed!?
#4
No proselytizing allowed, Joseph. And the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) have to pay extra taxes, are legally inferior to Muslims, and orphaned children are to be taken to be reared as Muslims. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case in Turkey, but it certainly still is in Jordan, where a couple of recent cases have been reported here at Rantburg.
#5
Care for some "sassier" muslim turks (don't have many from other faiths in stock at the moment ... wonder why that is) seething with traditional religious hate with your EU anybody?
#6
Inflicting $10,000 in damages, the Molotov cocktails heaved into the church could have burned the entire church down if one of the fire bombs had not run out of fuel, said officials who described the attack as âamateurish.â
"Yes, yes, true mooselimbs know how to throw and fuel their Molotov Cocktails. These amateur jihadis are to in no way reflect the fine acts of murder by real jihadis" the officials added.
Posted by: BA ||
07/15/2005 14:06 Comments ||
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#7
Pappy:
Re. double posts: I have only been clicking once on the Submit button. This happened when I borrowed an Apple computer (AKA: piece of junk). Sorry for the annoyance.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/15/2005 21:40 Comments ||
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#8
Mike Sylwester never proposes answers, only critiques otehrs and throws rhetorical questions. Nothing to add, never has, never will.
My answer is that if Turkey wants to stay in NATO, have a whisper of hope in joining the EU or whatever, they need to crack down on this shit. Otherwise - they can recede back to the 7th century
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 22:30 Comments ||
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Muslims in Austria are hopeful the government would remain tolerant in dealing with the minority after the London terrorist attacks, as a new security report warned against the danger of "Islamic terror" to national security. "I hope the government remains tolerant towards Muslims," Egyptian-born Osama Ikram told IslamOnline.net Thursday, July 14.
I'll bet you do...
He ruled out a policy shift after the bloody London bombings which killed at least 52 people and wounded more than 700 others. "Islam has been recognized by the state for long time and it would be difficult for the government to change a long-established policy over an occasional incident," Ikram opined.
Yeah. Don't worry about the occasional slaughter of 50 or so people...
He hoped the Muslim minority would not face reprisal attacks over the London bombings. No sooner had the London blasts taken place than racist attacks against mosques in Britain, the US and New Zealand were reported.
Could have been because people were angry. You know how those Brits seethe...
Austrian President Heinz Fischer said Sunday, July 10, that Islam is not an enemy of the West, warning European governments against responding to terror by taking blind steps governed by hatred and anger against Muslim minorities across Europe.
I hate warm milk. Gives me gas. Maybe I'm becoming intolerant?
Turkish-born Fateh Dorson also excluded a possible policy shift over the London blasts. "There will be no policy change because the country needs manpower, the majority of whom are Muslims." He said anti-terror laws and security measures would not help uproot the problem of religious extremism. "You can find extremism in all faiths, not only in Islam."
You just have to look harder in the other ones.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
"You can find extremism in all faiths, not only in Islam."
Yep, those extremist Quakers are making life hell in my area.
#5
Keep the meters analog, Fred. Digital is no fun. It doesn't have the look or feel of a good quivering pointer as it heads for the stratosphere of BS. You need the retard feature for BS spikes like a pointer on refrigeration gauges, so it does not blow up on surges.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/15/2005 1:31 Comments ||
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#1
Bio of our "moderate" muslim friend: Zaki Badawi is renowned for his interest in Islamic theology and law and as a representative and advocate of Muslims in Britain. He is currently the principal of the Muslim College in Britain, a postgraduate seminary responsible for the training of imams and Muslim leaders in the West which he founded in 1986, and frequently publishes and broadcasts on Islamic affairs. Dr Badawi was educated at Al-Azhar University and the University of London where he obtained his Doctorate in the area of modern Muslim thought. His teaching posts have taken him to universities in Malaysia, Singapore, Nigeria and the United Kingdom.
Previously, Dr Badawi was Director of the Islamic Cultural Centre and the Chief Imam of London Central Mosque in Regentâs Park. He was also instrumental in establishing the Sharia Council as a facility to reconcile conflicts between Islamic law and the British civil code and was instrumental in in negotiating with the Bank of England in establishing the first licensed Islamic financial institution in the UK. In 1984, Dr Badawi was elected chair of the Imams and Mosques Council of the United Kingdom which he continues to hold until this day.
In addition to publishing numerous articles, Dr Badawi co-edits Encounter Magazine with the Archbishop of York and the Chief Rabbi and is also chairman of The Arabic Forum, the Islamic Religious Council and the National Council for the Welfare of Muslim Prisoners. He is co-founder of the Three Faiths Forum, vice chairman of the World Congress of Faiths and director and trustee of the Forum Against Islamophobia and Racism (FAIR).
Posted by: Steve ||
07/15/2005 10:57 Comments ||
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#2
Define moderate.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/15/2005 13:05 Comments ||
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#3
Yeah, Steve, none of that quoted material is proof of this particular Badawi being a fake "moderate". Find me some juicy "infidels must die or pay the dhimmi tax" rhetoric, or at least a collection of bad associations - place him on the same stage as Qaradawi, forinstance, or smiling and nodding at somebody frothing about the Jooos in public. Or, even better, actually frothing in public about the Jooos.
Not that I really think he's clean - the US entry denial is definitely a warning sign - but what you just threw at us is more in the way of confirming the "moderate" claim than not. I mean, co-founder of the Three Faiths Forum? That sounds pretty damned ecumenical. You seem to have made the circumstantial case that he's the Islamic equivalent of a World Council of Churches squish.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
07/15/2005 16:04 Comments ||
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From IntelWire, an article by J. M. Berger
For the first time, Terry Nichols has gone on the record to accuse a third conspirator of taking part in the Oklahoma City bombing, a Florida gun dealer who sold weapons in close proximity to an early al Qaeda sleeper cell in Fort Lauderdale during the early 1990s. Terry Nichols claimed in a letter that Roger E. Moore, aka Bob Miller, helped provide explosive material to be used in the bombing, according to the L.A. Times. .... Moore denied the allegation ....
Moore, who also used the alias Bob Miller, worked the gun show circuit and ran an ammunition business called The American Assault Co., sometimes referred to as "The Candy Store." Moore also owned a home and a boat-repair business in Fort Lauderdale, where he purportedly first met Timothy McVeigh. Moore claimed he was robbed at gunpoint in November 1994, a crime which state and federal prosecutors sought to pin on Nichols. ....
At the end of December 1992, Timothy McVeigh abruptly quit his last known job as a security guard in Lockport, NY, according to numerous sources. He paid off a large gambling debt and drove directly to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where he took part in a gun show in early January, according to trial testimony and related documents. Foreign terrorists used the gun show, which was held at the Fort Lauderdale Armory, to buy weapons on at least one occasion. ....
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Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
The Feds wrapped up the investigation too tight. The loose ends should be tied up by a federal commission study. I don't know a single person who believes that we have the whole truth.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/15/2005 1:34 Comments ||
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#2
From the headline I thought Michael Moore was involved. You know, Michigan connection and willingness to drum up a story and all.
#4
"He [McViegh] paid off a large gambling debt" Hmm. Where did he get the money for that?
I still can't get past the fact that the source for the explosives recently found in Nichols' basement was Gregory Scarpa, Jr. I wonder if Nichols isn't trying to protect his son. After all, Edwin Angeles ended up dead after he opened his mouth.
#1
But Sen. Charles E. Schumer, New York Democrat, said the amendments would sap funds from local law enforcement. "That's the problem here. It's not in strengthening the borders. It's in taking away money from the people every day who defend us and, since 9/11, have new duties," he said.
That's right, Chuck! Don't try to stop 'em at the border; let 'em spread out, so Barney Fife can catch them!
#4
Why does she have to divert time away from preparing hearings on nasty modifications to videogames to to have to think about border security?! How the priorities are skewed from time to time is beyond me.
The Senate voted yesterday against fulfilling its pledge from last year to hire 2,000 more Border Patrol agents and fund 8,000 new detention beds for illegal aliens in fiscal 2006, as some potential presidential candidates weighed in on border security and illegal immigration.
The intelligence overhaul bill that Congress passed and President Bush signed into law in December called for 2,000 new agents and 8,000 new detention beds every year for the next five years in order to meet a threat posed by illegal aliens.
Yesterday's votes were on amendments to the Department of Homeland Security spending bill, which funds only 1,000 more agents and 2,240 more detention beds in fiscal 2006.
Sen. John Ensign, Nevada Republican, had called for another 1,000 agents, and Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican, called for 5,760 more beds in order to meet the goals set by last year's bill, with both increases being paid for by reducing grants to state and local governments.
"Anybody who comes into the United States of America across our southern border today and is from a country other than Mexico, 95 percent chance they will continue their journey to wherever they want to go," Mr. McCain said. "We don't have enough detention facilities. We don't have enough beds."
But Sen. Charles E. Schumer, New York Democrat, said the amendments would sap funds from local law enforcement.
"That's the problem here. It's not in strengthening the borders. It's in taking away money from the people every day who defend us and, since 9/11, have new duties," he said. Both amendments failed -- Mr. Ensign's by a 60-38 vote, and Mr. McCain's 56-42. Later in the evening, the overall Homeland Security bill passed 96-1, with Sen. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma Republican, voting against it.
The Senate debate came as Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff testified to both chambers of Congress that better homeland security requires a broad immigration policy change.
Meanwhile, potential presidential candidates weighed in on yesterday's amendments and immigration policy, with Majority Leader Bill Frist, Tennessee Republican, voting for both amendments.
"Immigrants have enhanced our history, and they will enhance our future, but we must make sure they come to America legally," Mr. Frist said. "It's a matter of security in a time of war. It's also a matter of morality for a caring nation and a nation of laws." Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, New York Democrat, who had made a splash recently with comments about cracking down on illegal immigration, voted against both amendments, as did Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, the 2004 Democratic nominee, and Democratic Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, who has said he plans to run.
Mrs. Clinton's office didn't return a call for comment, but other prominent Democrats who are considered presidential candidates said they didn't want to vote for cuts in first-responder grants to localities.
"Homeland security isn't served when we steal from firefighters, police officers and other first responders to hire Border Patrol agents," said David Wade, a spokesman for Mr. Kerry. "If the Republicans who run Congress had drafted a bill that actually meets our needs, none of these votes would be necessary."
Norm Kurz, a spokesman for Mr. Biden, said the Delaware senator introduced his own bill earlier this year calling for an increase in agents and voted for the intelligence bill last year.
"He just doesn't support doing these things at the expense of police, fire and EMTs," Mr. Kurz said.
Mr. Kurz said Mr. Biden's bill called for 1,500 agents, although the text only shows 800 agents and 300 investigators.
Sen. Rick Santorum, Pennsylvania Republican, and Sen. Evan Bayh, Indiana Democrat, voted against the Border Patrol increase but for the detention bed increase.
Mr. Bayh's spokesman, Dan Pfeiffer, said the Homeland Security Department has said it can only train 1,200 to 1,500 agents a year right now anyway. He said Mr. Bayh voted for the detention beds because 90 percent of aliens who aren't detained never show up at their deportation hearings.
Robert Traynham, a spokesman for Mr. Santorum, agreed, saying the detention beds money could be spent this year.
"The senator is for border security, but he would like for us to spend it in a responsible and approriate way," Mr. Traynham said.
Sen. Ken Salazar of Colorado was the only Democrat to vote for both amendments.
All the congress-critters are complaining that additional border security will come at the expense of firemen, EMTs, police, etc. All those positions they claim are "at risk" should be funded LOCALLY anyway. The Feds NEVER had any reason to tax away our local money just so that they can give it back again (under their control and priorities.)
The priority of Congress should be National Defense (not local services.) Drop all the support for local services and SECURE OUR BORDERS!
#4
It's not that our Senators are opposed to making sure the Federal government does its job in protecting us. As long as it doesn't interfere with the really important business of mutual backscratching and contributor payoffs, of course. Most of the time it seems like the main difference between the parties is what they're distracted by, not how much of the time is spent keeping their eyes on the ball.
I'd love to see us get serious about border security and China instead of doing only as much as the Mexicans and the Chinese are comfortable with. Given the way we're still playing footsie with the Saudis, I don't expect to.
Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony. The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.
Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story. The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said. Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.
Novak's column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's undercover identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle. Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media but he could not recall which reporter had told him about it first, the person said. When Novak inquired about Wilson's wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source's recounting of the grand jury testimony.
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Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 05:32 ||
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#1
I will be deeply, profoundly relieved when this whole Plame/Wilson/Rove nonsense passes into history, so I no longer have to hold my nose while Democrats pretend they give a damn-- or have ever given a damn-- about the safety and security of covert CIA agents.
Or about any other aspect of national security, for that matter. I was a Democrat for 31 years, until this war started; but I will never, ever vote for another one of those lying, destructive bastards so long as I live.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
07/15/2005 6:20 Comments ||
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#2
actually the longer this goes on the more dems will be hurt by having themselves tied to Joe 'the self important moron' Wilson
BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.
What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you.
WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.
So there's no crime. No one was outed. Wilson continuing to say Novak "blew her identity" is bure political BS, just like everything else he's ever said.
Anyone following the PlameNameBlameGame should read Just One Minute; Tom has it all up, on-line, organized and mastered.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
What they both were actually were heavy donors to the DNC and I think VP herself actually used her "CIA job" in connection to get others to donate as well. I could be wrong in how I recall that last bit. But they were DNC supporters and opend their wallets in a very generous way.
#2
Welcome to the shut-down. Miller goes to jail, Fitzgerald and the grand jury are closing in, and Wilson decides it's time to pull the rug out from under the investigation by removing any possibility that what the grand jury is investigating was actually a crime. Neat trick if they've not expanded their scope to something beyond merely who allegedly leaked Plame's identity.
#3
[span class=moonbat]
The traitor! He sold us out! HOW MUCH DID KKKARL ROVE PAY YOU TO ROLL OVER FOR HIM, MR. WILSON?
[/span]
Posted by: Mike ||
07/15/2005 6:43 Comments ||
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#4
I think that what Wilson meant here was that she was not covert after (not while) Novak blew her identity.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 8:34 Comments ||
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#5
It is "wll known" that a lot of peopel in CIA that are holdovers from Clinton's political era were very hostile and partisan - and used their jobs to help thier politics along. THis is why the nw director was needed to clean out the CIA, and why the new DNI was needed: the CIA was too rife with politicization of its work to be trusted as the primary source of intelligence for the NSC and the President.
#7
It makes no difference if Plame was covert the day Novak's article came out - outing her would be a crime if she HAD BEEN covert during the preceding five (I think) years. That is, assuming all the other conditions were met, among others, the source knew she was covert, and the CIA was still trying to preserve her covert identity.
As far as I can tell, it is not clear ANY of those conditions were met, never mind all three.
#9
You mean that wasn't a covert picture of you and your wife in Vanity Fair? I'm shocked!
Posted by: Dar ||
07/15/2005 10:13 Comments ||
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#10
Mikey, your assertion in #4 is just precious... and specious. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you merely have an amazing capacity for self-delusion -- it would be too unkind to say it is simply 100% USDA apologist dementia. You carry more water for the defunct and corrupt UN, aka The League of Thieves, and for the State Dept's private agenda segment, aka The Saudi Retirement Plan Wannabees (I'll bet your boyz already miss Princey Bandar, lol), than anyone else I've encountered. You're consistent, though I attach no credit to that attribute since you're consistently alone and embattled by the facts and, thus, reduced to spinning and hair-splitting and picking of ze nits - as #4 clearly shows. The Tranzi Moonbat Don Quixote of our time.
Rather than re-play this, I think that you need to tie this to the Judith Miller thread at the bottom of page 1.
Plame was not covert after 1997 so the statute didn't apply. The interesting thread is that Miller blew an investigation into a Muzzie group in Texas and that may be what she's covering up.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 13:43 Comments ||
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#13
My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.
MS, who are we supposed to believe here, you or Wilson? Wilson says she wasn't THE DAY, you say 'probably meant the day after'. So it's a choice between a liar and a apologist. Tough choice.
Posted by: Charles ||
07/15/2005 14:27 Comments ||
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#14
Why is MS always running interference for Annan and Wilson?
Posted late on 7/14 (21:02); moved to today (7/15) as it's one we'll be talking about. I preserved the comments. Moderator's perogative ...
From National Review On Line, an article by John Podhoretz
.... Karl Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, tells Byron that Time's Matt Cooper called Rove to talk about something else and that only secondarily did the subject of Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame come up. This is important, because it suggests Rove wasn't "retailing" the information about Wilson and Plame -- wasn't reporter-shopping to drop a dirty dime on those involved -- but was rather a passive source, answering a phone call at the reporter's behest and presumably changing topics to the sexier one at issue at the reporter's behest as well. ....
It means that clearly information was circulating around Washington about the identity of Wilson's CIA operative wife Valerie Plame. The presumption has thus far been in most quarters that the only people who could have known about this were administration officials. But what if that's not right? What if the original source for the "Wilson got the job from his CIA wife" was, in fact, a reporter? After all, we know that the vice president's chief of staff, Lewis Libby, has testified he learned of Plame's identity from a journalist.
Wilson had gotten very cozy with a couple of them -- Walter Pincus of the Washington Post and Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times among them. What if he spilled the beans to enhance his own standing in the story somehow, to bolster his supposed findings?
What if -- and here's where it gets really interesting -- what if the real object of interest where [special prosecutor Patrick] Fitzgerald's investigation is concerned is now none other than the jailed Judith Miller of the New York Times? What if she let it all slip and in the giant game of telephone around the nation's capital, Miller was the original source of the "Plame's in the CIA" info? What if Fitzgerald needs her notes to discern whether Miller knew or didn't know of Plame's supposedly covert status?
Fitzgerald already has a major bone to pick with Miller. He believes she materially and dangerously impeded his investigation into a terrorist-financing scheme run by the Holy Land Foundation. When Miller found out that Fitzgerald was on the verge of indicting Holy Land, she called the Foundation for comment -- and right after her call Fitzgerald believes the Foundation may have commenced a shredding party that ensured prosecutors would find little paperwork to go on when they raided the Holy Land offices.
As the Washington Post put it, "On Dec. 3, 2001, Times reporter Judith Miller telephoned officials with the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, a Texas-based charity accused of being a front for Palestinian terrorists, and asked for a comment about what she said was the government's probable crackdown on the group. U.S. officials said this conversation and Miller's article on the subject in the Times on Dec. 4 increased the likelihood that the foundation destroyed or hid records before a hastily organized raid by agents that day."
Fitzgerald sought her phone records on that occasion to uncover the source of a potential leak in his own office and was blocked by a liberal New York judge named Robert Sweet. Miller didn't get so lucky this time. Fitzgerald thinks Miller has a loose tongue, and for good reason. It's possible he's trying to figure out what other mischief her loose tongue might have caused.
[elsewhere on page:]
At the time, Wilson was trying to prove that his vaunted memo on Iraq and Niger and uranium had been read at the highest levels of the government. In fact, he said without qualification that he "knew" it had been read at the highest levels of government. This is important, because it was at the heart of the case being made at the time. The case was that Dick Cheney knew from Joe Wilson's memo that there was no Iraqi nuclear program but Cheney said so anyway and therefore the administration lied its way to war.
Wilson was retailing this story to various reporters, and Miller might have been one of them. A logical question to ask would be: "How do you know Cheney read it?" And the logical answer would be: "I know because my wife told me. She works for the CIA on WMD questions. But this is super top secret." So the scenario continues: .... In calling various people in the administration to check on Wilson's story, she let slip that Wilson's wife was CIA. ....
Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA operative came not from White House sources eager to out her, but from those eager to bolster Wilson's case against the White House (like, say, Wilson himself). ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
BTW -- Wilson admitted to Wolf Blitzed that his Plame was NOT covert at the time of the Novak story.
Rove broke no laws. The story here is, once more, a press more interested in marching to the Democrat's orders than in getting to the truth.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/14/2005 22:32 Comments ||
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1) Judith Miller can't be sent to jail because she refuses to hand over notes that incriminate herself.
2) If I understand well there were TWO senior WH officials who are alleged to have revealed Plame's idenity to reporters.
3) If you really want to assume that Wilson revealed that his wife was CIA, would he also reveal that she was working under her maiden name? Btw Wilson could just have said that someone high up at the CIA told him that Cheney had indeed read the report. That's plausible because the CIA sent Wilson, so why wouldn't they tell Wilson: Hey your report was sent to Cheney (who had requested it from the CIA).
4) Why was Plame considered "fair game"? What had she done to deserve this? Even if she "suggested" her husband, Wilson was not an absurd choice. He was ambassador in Iraq and in West African states, he was (then) highly respected by the previous Bush administration and BEFORE the Plame outing broke he seemed not to have been hostile to the WH. His Niger travels might not have been very successful but if I remember well he did expose some yellowcake documents as forgeries.
I'm sorry, it's a very muddy affair but just watching Scott McClellan tells me that something is not right. And Rove did say that he was not involved in this at all. Now he apparently is, even if this might not meet the criminal requirements.
I also don't believe that Miller would go to jail over Wilson.
I also don't believe that a CIA desk analyst can send her husband on missions.
And if someone at the CIA works on WMD proliferation I would go the extra mile to make sure that talking about her is ok. Even if I heard about her from a journalist first. There was no reason to dismiss Wilson's report by outing his wife. If Wilson did a poor job, this was not because his wife suggested him.
Oh and I definitely want to hear more about Novak and why he isn't in jail. This can only mean that he did in fact reveal his sources.
And yes I really would love to hear Old Spook's opinion on this.
#4
TGA - You must be hearing your info from some seriously slanted sources. This is merely the latest Dhimmidonk game to personally wound Bush. There is no there there. The law wasn't broken, Rove had issued a blanket waiver, Wilson and Plame were the worst kept "secret" on the Washington "B" list - jokes about her being a secret agent abounded, she had become an analyst in 1997 - in from the field. drove her own car registered in her name with a spiffy CIA parking decal to work at Langley every day, Wilson lied through his ass about Cheney, about Niger, about his wifey suggesting him for the trip, about everything, in fact.
There is another article today about the 10 worst Joe Wilson lies or similar. Check it out - it's the truth. This MSM / Dhimmi attack is pure politics.
#5
That's a bad typo in the headline. I read it as "Judith Miller Revealed [the late Olaf] Palme's CIA Position".
Posted by: Eric Jablow ||
07/14/2005 23:33 Comments ||
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#6
.com, you know that I'm not an easy victim of slanted press coverage.
Yes I have serious doubts about Wilson's integrity. And yes, it's possible that the law was not broken when Plame's identity was leaked.
But it should not have been leaked. A WH official should not have talked about this. Even if Rove first heard about Wilson's wife being CIA he should have stayed mum on that. Journalists often don't feel responsibility, an important WH member must think about everything he says.
Rove said he wasn't involved in the Plame affair at all. If he wasn't, a short statement that he didn't talk about Wilson's wife being CIA to reporters would be all that's needed. He doesn't do that.
And sorry, Scott McClellan would rather brief the Martians right now than the WH press corps.
You know my position on most things. But something simply smells here.
#7
If I understand well there were TWO senior WH officials who are alleged to have revealed Plame's idenity to reporters.
One has made it clear he got her name from a reporter.
If you really want to assume that Wilson revealed that his wife was CIA, would he also reveal that she was working under her maiden name?
His entry in "Who's Who" listed his wife's name, as Valerie Plame. Anyone knowing that "Wilson's wife works at CIA" and looking into this book -- available in most libraries -- would have her name.
Why was Plame considered "fair game"?
I don't know that she was. Remember that it turned out -- despite Wilson's protests to the contrary -- that she did, in fact, arrange for him to make the trip to Niger.
His Niger travels might not have been very successful but if I remember well he did expose some yellowcake documents as forgeries.
That's what he claimed to the press. The Senate Select Intelligence Committee debunked it, stating that during his testimony Wilson said he "misspoke" when making that claim.
Contrast this with Sandy Berger -- he stole and destroyed classified documents. The press couldn't drop that story fast enough, despite there being a real and obvious crime. Or the illegal release of Linda Tripp's personnel file -- again, dropped and ignored. This is purely partisan.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/14/2005 23:41 Comments ||
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#8
and .com, if Plame's CIA identity was common knowledge in Washington, why is there an investigation at all. Why did the CIA request it. And why are reporters sent to jail over laws not broken?
Why would Novak need two senior WH officials to confirm Plame's CIA activity if she was the joke of the town?
Was it really "cocktail party knowledge" that Wilson's wife one worked NOC under her maiden name?
(OK the last point is somewhat fishy because who would work NOC under a real maiden name?)
I'll wait for the findings. If you're right, the better.
You might find out about a maiden name in a library but NOT that this person used her maiden name when working covertly.
Getting the name from a reporter is irrelevant. Reporters can feed you rumors, but you don't comment on them. I understand the legal technicalities but you DONT CONFIRM things you hear about CIA people from reporters without thinking hard and checking back with the CIA.
#10
The CIA is rife with political partisans. Scheurer ring a bell? Bet your bottom dollar that it was a few of these who thought Wilson would make a great "envoy" to check out Niger.
What about all of his proven lies?
The law is clear - she was no longer NOC because she had been back stateside since 1997 (5 yrs in-country is the key) and had become an desk-bound analyst.
Bush appointed the Special Prosecutor because anything less would have really caused a stink. The guy has full subpeona power, too - why hasn't he jumped Rove? Because Rove has been above-board with him from Day One. Rove merely cautioned the Time reporter not to buy into Wilson's BS pronouncements. Just his claim that Cheney had been somehow involved in selecting him was more than enough for Rove to say to the reporter - careful, don't buy into Wilson's statements as we know some are lies.
#11
I am pretty sure there is a leaker and it's not Rove. From what I have read Rove only verified information a reporter already had. He didn't give her up and may in reality not known she worked at the CIA "undercover."
I am wondering if Rove has or even has need of a top secret clearance? He is a political operative and really has little need of such a clearance.
One thing is for sure, if a certain male senator from New York is denouncing Rove, there is no there, there. It's pure political bullshit the Dems and their fellow Marxists in the MSM are trying to pull.
#12
TGA: one issue is that the Special Counsel can't nail Miller at a grand jury for what she might have done / said, as she can always invoke her right against self-incrimination (5th Amendment). What he can nail her for (now) is refusing to cooperate and invoking an invalid press privilege.
If it were an issue of incriminating herself, she'd be at home tonight, at least until the grand jury issued an indictment.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/14/2005 23:59 Comments ||
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#13
I'll say it again: there is no way, no way, a New York Times reporter goes to jail to protect Karl Rove. It doesn't happen in this universe.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/15/2005 0:08 Comments ||
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#14
OK, it's a complicated matter, so let's see.
If Plame did not fall under the protection of the law applied here there would be no investigation. No law broken, no Counsel. I don't think Fitzgerald needed a year to find that out.
Obviously Plame did enjoy the protection of that law. She might not work covertly anymore, but she did in the past. Even ten years later an outing might endanger people she once had contact with abroad. If she worked on WMD proliferation issues, that is serious. Let's say she met people in a dictatorial state and now her name's splashed all over, that can't be good for the contacts she once entertained.
I would expect from anyone working in the White House to be deadly silent on any CIA operative. Even more on someone concerned with WMD
There was no need to bring her into play. Whether Plame had anything to to with Wilson being sent to Niger is irrelevant to the quality of Wilson's finding. Wilson didn't lack the qualifications and after all he wasn't sent on a pleasure trip to Paris to question the girls at the Moulin Rouge.
Whether Rove was the source or someone else, I don't know. But the real source should not work in the White House anymore.
I just think that there's more to the story than we know. It may very well be a conflict between parts of the CIA and Cheney's intelligence team that has turned ugly.
How important is Plame? What exactly did she do in 2002? Of course we'll probably never know.
And yes I really would love to hear Old Spook's opinion on this.
Well, this is what he wrote earlier today; I'm guessing he won't mind if I copy-and-paste his comments from here:
Let me rephrase - that is a redacted version - Joe Wilson implies (as you can see) that Cheney sent him - and his public comments subsequent to the NYT article show him making those claims: Cheney sent him to the CIA, the CIA wanted him there, etc etc.
This stuff is OLD, and Joe Wilson has been outed on every bit of that article as being a liar. Check the report for the Senate investigation.
The facts are out there if you check into them. And they support Wilsom being a liar, and his wife just being a desk bound agent after Alrich Ames blew her cover back in *1997*. She was NOT a covert. This is the Old-Boy network at the CIA at work: trying to cast the blame for the results of of poor management and fieldcraft on someone else - in this case trying to blame a "leaker" for sooomethign that was not a leak to begin with.
It can hardly be a leak if the info was not classified to begin with.
Its akin to trying to prosecute someone for leaking a US Army Field Manual that they bought off ebay which turned out to be UNCLASSIFIED.
The special counsel is trying his damnest to dig up something to justify his office's continued existence, in hopes of becoming a special prosecutor, not just a counsel.
Sadly for him, and for the left, there simply is no "there" there for them.
The ONLY reason this is a headline event is that the openly partisan press has decided to help thier side by trying to make something of nothing, in order to try to weaken the Republicans before the supreme court noiminations come up.
They are that desperate - and that out of touch, and that bought in by a pack of lies. Just look back to the Dan Rather forged memo if you want to see the truth of thier inability to handle the truth when it doesnt fit their warped views.
Its sad - the "4th branch" of the US has become corrupt and partisan.
Its pretty sad how the more Democrat/left the press has become, the further it leaves behind facts, reason, honesty and fairness, and how much more it relies on lies, rumors, innuendo, smearing, and sensationalism.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
07/15/2005 0:49 Comments ||
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#16
The story here is that not only is the Old Grey Lady's slip is showing, she's been caught with the left with her panties on her ankles.
Judith Miller knew that Plame was CIA and she apparently used herself as a 'source.' Miller, it appears was one of the two 'sources.'
#17
Obviously Plame did enjoy the protection of that law. She might not work covertly anymore, but she did in the past. Even ten years later an outing might endanger people she once had contact with abroad.
I believe the law covers up to five years after an out-of-country covert assignment.
#18
Some interesting thoughts from Old Spook, thanks Phil, I missed that posting somehow.
If I understand it right it is just a speculation that Ames blew Plame's cover. Even if it were so that doesn't mean that it became "common knowledge" in DC. It simply means that Plame couldn't work undercover anymore. Ames' "unmasking" would still have to rate as classified info.
I also remember to have read that Wilson did not claim that Cheney sent him, only that Cheney requested the CIA to send someone, which turned out to be him, whether as a "suggestion" of his wife or not. But if Plame was just another blonde desk clerk, her contribution would have been rather irrelevant. Her "suggestion" does not disqualify Wilson's finding, so why bring it up? And wasn't that just a speculation anyway?
When and why did Wilson turn into such a big liar? He used to be a very respected man by the former Bush administration. He also can't have been a friend of Saddam, given his history. Why would he start such a crusade against the White House. Wilson could not confirm the yellowcake story in Niger (which doesn't mean it was untrue). So why did he make such a big deal about it?
Also, which role did Judith Miller play? She did in fact write a lot about Iraq's WMDs. She did buy into a lot of things Chalabi said that were unsubstantiated. Why would she "protect" Wilson, who, if he was on a anti-WMD crusade, must have hated Miller? It may not be Rove she's protecting, but who is worth months in jail?
I continue to believe that it was uncalled for any WH official, if there was one, to bring up Plame, even if only to confirm things heard from journalists, if we chose to believe that.
Rove told Chris Matthews that Ambassador Wilsonâs wife and her undercover status were âfair game.â
Indeed, Pappy's right, the law covers an agent for 5 years - or if still covert. It was crafted very narrowly with the Phillip Agee book in mind. The press is amply protected - agents are somewhat protected. The instant she began working at Langley - she was "blown".
As for Wilson's duplicity - do we have to prove he's a raving Moonbat, or will his actions suffice?
Read the link given above. In Wilson's own words he puts to rest almost everything you've brought up. He's a bona-fide liar and BDS sufferer - along with his wifey thingy. I think they BOTH deserve to end up in jail for their shenanigans. Unfortunately, just being a seditious asshole who lies through his teeth isn't sufficient. People of that persuasion run the Dhimmidonk Party, today.
#20
OK I'm just reading the NYT story, which goes:
Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.
After hearing Mr. Novak's account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: "I heard that, too."
The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said.
That DOES change things. So who really was Novak's source? He obviously did tell the Counsel who it was or he'd be in jail like Miller.
Whoever was the original leaker, this could get interesting.
#21
Where did the "fair game" statement come from?
(See y'all tomorrow, TGA; it's 1am here).
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
07/15/2005 1:51 Comments ||
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#22
TGA you should let go of it. You obviously haven't been following the story and are raising issues that have already been settled.
Wilson is a liar. He repeatedly lied about his being on a mission for Cheney, he lied about his not having been selected by his wife, and he lied in the NYT about the yellow-cake connection with Iraq. Rove merely told Cooper that he should not believe Wilson's lies. Plame was fair game because she was helping Wilson spread his lies.
There is no there, there. Nada. Just leftist BS. Miller is in jail because she is most likely covering up for the only person who's known to have been lying and leaking confidential information in this silly affair: Wilson, the Kerry man who announced that he would do *anything* to destroy the Bush administration, and lied in public about a confidential CIA report.
#23
Let's see....Rathergate....could it be Millergate?
No wonder the NY Slimes is covering this up. Judith got her hmm boob in a ringer over her pre-war articles in the lead up to the Iraq invasion. She was chastized by the Slimes for her pro-war WMD publications.
Posted by: Captain America ||
07/15/2005 2:02 Comments ||
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#24
Let's ask it another way: Who would Judith Miller be willing to do time for to protect? It damn sure isn't Rove and I find it unlikely to be anyone else in the WH.
#26
Kalle, an awful lot of assumptions you make...
It seems that Wilson became disgruntled with the administration because he went to Niger, believed to have found nothing that confirmed the yellowcake story and then had to learn that his report was either not read or discarded, and the President went about to mention the uranium story (which seemed to have been worded very vaguely).
When, in fact, no active nuclear program was found in Iraq, Wilson felt his time had come to "stick it to them".
That wouldn't be so unusual. Wilson did become a partisan hack after the State of the Union address. But was he when he went to Niger?
I think there is a good reason why Miller is in jail. And it's not because she's protecting Wilson.
I think it's a conflict between anti WMD intel people with the CIA and pro WMD intel people with the Pentagon/Cheney teams. And some people did get caught in the middle.
There is no evidence that Plame worked against the WH as you claim, that's pure speculation. And the mere fact that she might have suggested her husband to check out lovely Niger would only disqualify Wilson if he weren't qualified for the job. I can't say whether he failed his job or not, but his resume would qualify him. How many people could the CIA have chosen from to send to Niger. How many did have connections and expertise?
#27
The law was written in that CIA-bashing era, after the Church Committee had eviscerated the agency, and it was open season. It should be more protective, but it is what it is and the time it was written is the why.
The reason why this is such a Big Deal is that this is one of the fundamental Moonbat memes. The 16 words of the SOTU Address, the WMD's, "Bush Lied" - all of it wrapped up in this game - and Wilson was literally a God to the Lefties for this act of seditious conspiracy in league with his BDS Wifey and her BDS CIA Kool Aid co-conspirators.
All I can add that hasn't been covered by others is Go, Goss, Go!
#29
I think you all are missing the nasty turn this story just took for the Democrats, or at least for Judith Miller. No wonder they have been in full-blown damage control and no wonder the watchers have been on this story like flies on a watermellon. It's starting to make sense to me now. And don't forget - the dems didn't understand the power they lost to the blogs when they started this mess.
Here's what we should all be focusing on - reread it and weep.... As the Washington Post put it, "On Dec. 3, 2001, Times reporter Judith Miller telephoned officials with the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, a Texas-based charity accused of being a front for Palestinian terrorists, and asked for a comment about what she said was the government's probable crackdown on the group. U.S. officials said this conversation and Miller's article on the subject in the Times on Dec. 4 increased the likelihood that the foundation destroyed or hid records before a hastily organized raid by agents that day."
Fitzgerald sought her phone records on that occasion to uncover the source of a potential leak in his own office and was blocked by a liberal New York judge named Robert Sweet. Miller didn't get so lucky this time. Fitzgerald thinks Miller has a loose tongue, and for good reason. It's possible he's trying to figure out what other mischief her loose tongue might have caused.
This story is just barely about Plame - it's about Judith Miller and it could be very big indeed!
Ask yourself this - if Judith Miller called the Holy Land Foundation and warned them - WHY? WHY would she do that??? And why would the Dem's give her a full blown damage control parade?
I think we just got a quick peep into Pandora's box.
#30
TGA, you're usually interesting but in this case you're becoming a bore.
It is absolutely false to state that: "[Wilson] went to Niger, believed to have found nothing that confirmed the yellowcake story... It has been firmly ESTABLISHED that Wilson did receive evidence while in Niger of Iraqi contacts to buy nuclear material. He LIED when he claimed that he had found not such evidence.
You're engaging in hypotheticals all based on Wilson's lies.
#31
2b, you are right that the central problem is Miller. She's covering for someone and has already demonstrated that she is willing to help the enemy.
In view of all the evidence, Miss Marple would say that Plame's husband is the one who leaked all over DC. I can't see any other logical explanation. Miller was not informed by Rove, and the MSM are doing everything they can to hide who was the "mastermind" of the Wilson affair... ergo...
#32
this whole Plame thing seems like shiney keys to me, by all accounts, she's not even covert and apparently had a Langley sticker on her car.
So if it is shiney keys - what are they distracting us from. Maybe, I'm over reacting, but I've got a feeling this goes deeper than Judith Miller and Plame is only a back door entry to get Miller's notes.
#33
I have a strong suspicion that the administration knows who leaked this, and they know this is going to blow up right in the Democrats/MSM's faces. The whole way they are handling it seems, to me, in a manner to say as very little as possible to give the league of moonbats enough rope to seriously hang themselves.
And they are blindly desperate enough, as they have proven so many times now, to step right into Rove's snare.
Time will tell...
Posted by: Mac Suirtain ||
07/15/2005 3:03 Comments ||
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#34
Yet another supremely devious Rovian Plot... Is there no end to his eeeeviiiil genius? Lol!
#35
This is a fun piece - check the date... "Who didn't know?", Lol!
Hat Tip to RC & Dr Steve - RC posted another article on this topic which is being ignored since all the fireworks are here, at the moment. Go read it. Good stuff.
#36
Kalle, let's not call others a bore just because they do not always coincide with your opinion. I'm always willing to learn.
If I recall it right the "yellowcake story" was never "debunked" by Wilson, it was just felt that evidence was not strong enough to get the story included in the State of the Union address.
There is no evidence that Wilson, in 2002, withheld evidence and/or lied.
"Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq -- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."
According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998."
The WaPo misreads the Senate report here which states Iran, not Iraq.
That is not exactly what I would qualify as "clear evidence".
Wilson seems to have started to "lie" only later, after the State of the Union address.
I don't want to go to much into it but I have still found no reason why his wife should have been "outed" or, if you prefer, have her CIA id confirmed by WH officials.
But indeed, that may be a smokescreen for something bigger and may involve Judith Miller, her contacts, Chalabi....
#37
This story is just barely about Plame - it's about Judith Miller and it could be very big indeed!
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! The only remaining question is whether we're near the end of this mess (if Miller is covering for Plame/Wilson) or if we're about to see it take off in whole new directions.
It's entirely possible that the grand jury is now investigating Miller's role in tipping off the Holy Land Foundation to Fitzgerald's forthcoming raid in preparation for bringing criminal charges against her. Or perhaps the administration is stringing it along because she'll be sprung from club fed as soon as the grand jury investigation ends and they just think she needs to spend a little time behind bars.
What I find interesting is that Miller goes to jail and almost immediately we have Wilson dropping the line that Plame wasn't a covert agent. This is a slam-dunk red flag signal that the investigation is getting close to something that some folks would prefer remain buried because the surest way to end the investigation (or at least politically discredit it) is to take any possibility of a crime having been committed off the table. If Plame isn't covert and hasn't been one for many years there is no possibility of a crime thus the grand jury should be disbanded and Fitzgerald be sent home.
If I were a betting man I'd wager a *lot* that Wilson and/or Plame are the original source(s) that "outed" Plame to the media. It makes perfect sense that Wilson would have exploited his wifeâs status to shore up his credentials with the press while making his case against the administration. And it makes no sense at all that the administration would have outed Plame, as there was no political gain whatsoever to be had by doing so.
This was nothing more than a pure political game from the get-go, the left kicked it off and, per usual, vastly overplayed their hand. Now they are trying desperately to bring it to a close before we find out how deep the rabbit hole really goes.
#39
.com
what would be interesting to know is when did Wilson become partisan. Is there anything from him BEFORE he went on the Niger trip?
Remember, he went in February 2002. The Iraq debate did only heat up later.
#40
Heh, I'm looking... so far it seems while he was employed, he kept his mouth shut. He was a "diplomat" until 1998, according to his absurdly self-aggrandizing website. When Bush won in 2000 - he was definitely unemployed. Motive enough? Hmmm... What if he had a guaranteed gig offered by the "Gore Administration" and, well, shit just didn't go his way? Lol!
I'll keep looking for something in that 1998 - 2002 time period and will post if I locate anything partisan or giving motive.
#41
Hey, Dotcom and TGA, all you need to know about Wilson is that he was our last ambassador to Iraq before OIF (1991).
It was his boss--some woman whose name I forget, Wendy ?--who said the wrong thing to Saddam and the next thing everyone knew, Saddam was invading Kuwait because this woman had indicated that it might be OK with the U.S.!
When she got recalled for that, Joey Boy was stuck in Baghdad while we were bombing and kicking Saddam's ass.
I swear the man's been bitter about Presidents named Bush every since.
#42
TGA,
Here are Joe Wilson's political contributions: 2000 Elections
It is skewed to the Dems ($4500 vs. $1500), where he gave $3000 to Gore and $1000 to Bush. The other Repub. is Ed Royce, Representative from California.
2002 and 2004 Elections
Here the political contributions are split $3750 ($2000 to Kerry) to Dems and $1000 to Repubs. Ed Royce (0 to Bush).
Valerie Wilson gave $1000 to Gore for the 2000 election. For the 2004 election, Valerie gave $372 to America Coming Together, the hard left umbrella organization funded by MoveOn, George Soros, Peter Lewis, Steve Bing.
So I would say both Joe and Valerie Wilson have been partisan all along, except to Ed Royce (friend?), though he did contribute to both presidential campaigns in 2000. It becomes stark when taken together with his comment "It Will Be A Cold Day In Hell Before I Vote For A Republican, Even For Dog Catcher."
Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 7:10 Comments ||
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Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 7:13 Comments ||
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#44
Jennie,
You are referring to April Glaspie.
Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 7:16 Comments ||
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#45
I see no benefit to Wilson/Plame outing Plame. At the very least it exposes themselves to nepotism charges when Plame recommended Wilson, political manipulation charges if one were more conspiratorial.
Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 7:24 Comments ||
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#46
It is threads like this one that make Rantburg great. I thought I already had all the dots connected, but this thread turned many of those dots into solid lines. Thank you, everyone, for contributing to my education.
BTW, does anyone else have a problem with the "preview" button?
Posted by: Whiskey Mike ||
07/15/2005 7:52 Comments ||
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#47
I see no benefit to Wilson/Plame outing Plame.
He didn't intend to. Hypothetical: Wilson's talking to a reporter, supposedly on background, reporter asks him, "Why would the CIA send you?" Wilson responds, "Well, I have experience in the area, and my wife is at the CIA as part of their WMD team." Wilson assumes that since it's "background", it'll never see the light of day.
Then Wilson writes his article, gets it published. His name's in public. Reporter he spoke to on background figures that once a source exposes itself, there's no need to maintain anonymity for them.
Bingo.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 8:02 Comments ||
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#48
WM - If you have pop-ups blocked - that can stop the Preview Window - just permit pop-ups for rantburg.com and it will work correctly. Fred switched over to opening a new window / tab for the Preview awhile back. Also, if there is one already open, it is just refreshed with the new content when you click Preview - so you may not notice one is already there. Got lots of browser windows / tabs going? Heh.
#49
Another trail is that Plame is a source for MIller on WMD issues. Miller has to tell editors including Kristof who her source is to get unattributed material into the paper. Somebody is chating up Scooter Libby and slips up, mentioning something he thought Libby knew. I vote that the leak will end up being something related to that kind of momentary stupidity but that it has opened a pandoras box about something much nastier about which Judith Miller know much and we nothing.
TGA, you're never a bore, though some here are boors at times.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/15/2005 8:40 Comments ||
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#50
Jennie - I didn't know he was there when the light show kicked off - lol! That's funny as hell!
ed - There's definitely some fire in his belly with those contributions - thx! I'll bet serious money he expected a Knighthood from Gore somewhere in the State Dept.
All I found, before I conked out, was more and more detailed summations of his lies and, of course, the Kos Kiddie-type sites with bulging eyeballs screeching BDS hate. He is truly a pivotal figure for the Moonbats. To see him go down in flames, utterly defamed and outted as a lying asshole, well, no wonder the BS level is so high in Moonbatia. Fug 'em.
2) the law protects covert agents overseas for 5 years.
3) Somone let Plames identity as a CIA agent be known to a newspaper columnist, Robert Novak, who published the identity.
This is why there was a Special Counsel (NOT a Special Prosecutor - there is a BIG difference and peopel need to stop using the wrong terms) appointed by President Bush: there was a need to see if in fact the laws were broken by people in his administration.
Now here is the part people are not getting:
a) Plame's employement by the CIA was widely known - she was no longer in an overseas assignment, openly drove to and from the facility, and had a parking sticker on her car for the facility. De Facto: she was not and had not been a "covert" agent for some time.
b) Her husband openly talked about his wife working for the CIA. "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity", as well as many references made to her.
c) She was pulled back in 1997 due to the concern for her safety after being compromised by Aldrich Ames. (i.e. The CIA feared she was already "blown" in 1997, and treated her as such).
d) The Judith Miller angle on this case amounts to a possible "blood feud" by the Special Counsel for her blowing a federal investigation by tipping off the people being investigated before the FBI coudl seize them - and being protected by a (liberal) judge from having evidence against her gathered.
e) The emails in question say that cheney *confirms* informally that Wilson's wife "apparently" worked for the CIA: "Apparently" = no *knowledge*, and that he is hazarding a guess - its a very legalistic word parsing that means Cheney did not *know* that she was a CIA operative. Furthermore, he did not mention her name, married or maiden.
f) The law requires that the agent be "covert" (not the same as "covered" - they are diffeerent terms of art in the esponage business), that the person "outing" the agent know this, and that the outing was deliberate. And it had to occur within the 5 year timespan. You have to pass all 3 for a crime to be comitted.
You put all these factors together, there is simply no crime here, at least not by Karl Rove.
The only reason the partisan press is focused on Rove is that he has made the Democrats angry and the biased ones want to do anything they can to weaken Bush before the supreme court nomination battle to come.
The only possible criminal charges are probably aimed at Judith Miller (see *d* above), and those are only at the fringes of the law. Its highly unlikely there is enough to convict Miller or her source, except on very technical matters - ones that would likely not stand a "reasonable doubt" test in court.
As I said before, there is no "there" there. Nothing of substance from the *facts* that we have at hand. The only reason this is a news item is that the partisan political peopel in the press have made it so.
President Bush has done a good job with his "No Comments" line of action. Much like the whole "Rathergate" thing, he is giving the press enough rope to hang themselves, which they are surely doing right now:
The mask is off and much of the press is revealing itself to be not reporters of fact, but an operative wing of liberal politics. Their self evisceration (which is happening now) will help Bush when the nomination fight comes, because the general public will disregard anything these partisan hacks have to say.
#52
Re: #47 (Robert Crawford: He didn't intend to. Hypothetical: Wilson's talking to a reporter, supposedly on background, reporter asks him, "Why would the CIA send you?"
I think the main question was rather, "How do you know that Cheney received your Niger report before President Bush's State of the Union Address?"
Wilson then answered that he, Wilson, knew because his own wife was in a position to know, because of her position as a WMD expert in the CIA.
The issue that Wilson had raised in his NYT article was that the Niger item should not have been in the State of the Union Address, because Cheney should have received Wilson's Niger report before the State of the Union Address was given.
Then the issue was that Cheney responded that he had never heard of Wilson or of his report. So, then Wilson and Plame told Miller that Cheney must have known, because Plame's position qualified her to authoritatively say so.
So then Miller started asking lots of administration officials about this, and so then a lot of such officials knew about it and a couple confirmed it to Novak and Cooper. But at that time the issue was: did Cheney know about Wilson's Niger report before the State of the Union Address?
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 8:51 Comments ||
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#53
The problem with your issues Mikey is that the report - as seen by the Senate Comittee that reviewd this - did not indicate nor support a complete denial of the yellow cake for sale to Iraq angle. It was inconclusive at best.
Do some research on it. Joe Wilson publicly mischaracterized (lied about) what he put in that report, and you are going into this based on a lie by Wilson. You might want to reconsider.
Want proof? Right from the horse's mouth: CIA Director George Tenet.
âBecause this report, in our view, did not resolve whether Iraq was or was not seeking Uranium from abroad, it was given a normal and wide distribution, but we did not brief it to the President, Vice-President or other Senior Administration Officials.â (Central Intelligence Agency, âStatement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence,â Press Release, 7/11/03, emphasis added by me)
And referencing the question of the state of the union speech, you're wrong again as well, as the British investigation shows.
âWe conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Governmentâs dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bushâs State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that: âThe British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.â was well-founded.â (The Rt. Hon. The Lord Butler Of Brockwell, âReview Of Intelligence, On Weapons Of Mass Destruction,â 7/14/04)
#54
How come this doesn't get brought up in the discussion more often? Anybody know more about Brewster Jennings? Is it the area where the real problem lies?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/15/2005 9:14 Comments ||
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#55
Correction for 2 posts back:
e) The emails in question say that cheney Rove ...
#57
I've been waiting for someone to come out and say these things... and they finally did. This is way I was hinting about when we first discusees this - remember I said somethign about CIA ass covering? That was what the rumors were "inside" the walls.
Now its confirmed! (Thanks to powerline)
A former CIA covert agent who supervised Mrs. Plame early in her career yesterday took issue with her identification as an "undercover agent," saying that she worked for more than five years at the agency's headquarters in Langley and that most of her neighbors and friends knew that she was a CIA employee. "She made no bones about the fact that she was an agency employee and her husband was a diplomat," Fred Rustmann, a covert agent from 1966 to 1990, told The Washington Times.
"Her neighbors knew this, her friends knew this, his friends knew this. A lot of blame could be put on to central cover staff and the agency because they weren't minding the store here. ... The agency never changed her cover status."
AHA!
I told you guys so. Someone in CIA, when asked by the president's office if Plame was undercover, foudn the mistake, but rather than correct it, lied to the president's people about the ACTUAL status and gave them the "book" status. Trying to cover their ass that they forgot to change her status as required by agency regulations. And the CIA clammed up after this to avoid embarassement of having (once again) misinformed the President.
THIS is the "red meat" the press should be going after. Were the Whitehouse Press Corps doing their jobs as reporters of fact instead of political axe-grinding, *this* info would be in the headlines.
And I get to say "I told you so!".
I can hardly wait to see those partisan reporters (Moran the Moron especially) when this turns on them and really emphasizes that the reporters are not reporters anymore, and ALL of them deserve to be fired not only for bias, but for INCOMPETENCE.
The New York Times now has a source within the grand jury proceedings in the Robert Fitzgerald investigation into the alleged leak of Valerie Plame's status as a CIA operative. The new article for tomorrow's edition by David Johnston and Richard Stevenson reveals that Karl Rove spoke with Robert Novak before he released his column -- but that Novak told Rove about Plame, including her name, and not the other way around:
Karl Rove, the White House senior adviser, spoke with the columnist Robert D. Novak as he was preparing an article in July 2003 that identified a C.I.A. officer who was undercover, someone who has been officially briefed on the matter said.
Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.
After hearing Mr. Novak's account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: "I heard that, too."
The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/15/2005 9:43 Comments ||
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#60
Re #53 (Old Spook)
Please explain what any of that has to do with anything I have written.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 9:48 Comments ||
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#61
It fits with other things we've heard that Novak would have told Rove.
As for her neighbors knowing - if we are talking 1997 - then her security clearances should show what her neighbors/friends knew or didn't know about her. Of course, a reporter worth their salt, could easily get that same information.
#62
The only thing I wrote yesterday is that it's not true that Wilson ever said or implied that he was sent to Niger by Cheney.
What I wrote here today is essentially only that the original issue was that Wilson did imply that Cheney should have had Wilson's Niger report before Bush mentioned Niger in his State of the Union Address. And that the events then evolved from that particular issue of what Cheney knew and when he knew it.
What you write about, Old Spook, has nothing at all to do with what I wrote about.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 9:54 Comments ||
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#63
whatever Mike...the discussion has moved beyond your natttering.
The agency never changed her cover status."
Doesn't the CIA do their own security clearances. Seems to me that it would be fairly easy to see if they screwed up by not changing her status. It's been more than 5 years since 1997 - so they would have had to do one in that time. And if the CIA failed to pick up that neighbor/friends/co-workers knew - they are equally screwed. And it's not like the CIA can go back and change anything, unless they want to eliminate the sources.
Either friends/co-workers/neighbors knew or they didn't know. All's anyone has to do is ask. But if friends/neighbors/co-workers did know in the last 5 years and the CIA didn't change her status, no amount of "clamming up" will change that fact.
#65
This whole story is so incredibly STUPID that I can't believe that it's up to #62 already.
Sending Wilson to Niger was a shot in the dark at best. All he could do is question untrustworthy sources and maybe, just maybe, raise a new lead or two.
His wife is neither James Bond nor P. Galore. Her identity would be no secret unattainable by a good reporter. Unfortunately, there may be no more good reporters in Washington, D.C. They all think they work for the tabloids now. Maybe they do.
Karl Rove is the clear media target here and I haven't seen ONE FACT that suggests that he should even get a slap on the wrist.
The President and his Press Secretary are refusing to join this sorry game and I'm glad of it.
The CIA clearly screwed up. Joe Wilson clearly screwed up. Joe Wilson's wife clearly screwed up. And any reporter that would go to jail rather that tell the truth to a grand jury clearly screwed up and can rot in jail for all I care.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 10:12 Comments ||
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#66
NT - the best part of this (as by others better than I) is that this whole thing might blow up again in the Donk's face, particularly Sen Scumbag Schumer
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 10:27 Comments ||
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#67
Clearance is not the same as cover status.
My point is that she would have had a clearance done since 1997 - by the CIA (I believe). The clearance would have turned up if it was common knowledge where she worked. If the CIA does their own clearances then they have no excuse for mislabeling her COVER STATUS.
#69
I think we need two quote clarifications here. First, some people STILL insist Wilson is talking about the infamous "16 words." And I think that Wilson thinks he is too. But the last word of those 16 was "Africa," not "Niger." The whole thing was stoopid from the get-go, but the administartion never really bothered to say, "Fine, not from Niger. But here's the evidence is was from elsewhere on the dark continent."
Second, that quote from CNN the other night by Wilson: "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity." This is being misinterpreted by nearly everyone. All he is saying here is that his wife was clandestine, until Novak outed her. He's not confessing she was not covert; he's saying Novak outed her.
#70
he's saying Novak outed her. I agree, though I also believe it is possible that it was a carefully crafted comment - but who knows.
but that's kind of my point. It's very easy to see if that is a lie or not. All that a reporter has to do is go knock on the neighbors/friends/coworkers doors. Either they knew or they didn't. And the written proof will be in her security clearances as to whether they knew or not.
#71
And in the link Dr Steve provided in his inline comment in the other story on this topic, there is an embedded link to an NRO piece from Sept 2003 that utterly ridicules the notion that Novak outted her. I provided this embedded link in #35.
#72
I agree it's clear that Novak didn't out her, but I do agree that the comment made by Wilson can be read either way you want it to read. I think it was intended to imply that Novak outed her, without actually saying it, cause he knows it's not true. More I think about it, I think it was a carefully crafted comment.
#73
I think you've zoomed in on it, 2b. Werdz are his "bidness", but he jumped the shark, i.e. outright lied, on so many other points that his craftiness on this point is lost in the noise. I'm sure, being the darling of the Moonbats and so precious to their cause, he will find succor on the idiot circuit for awhile, yet.
#74
I know everyone is probably getting ticked at my wasting bandwidth on this - but I think my point should not be overlooked. If we had a respectable media - all they would have to do is make a few phone calls to see who knew and when. Friends/neighbors/coworkers knew or they didn't know and they can tell you the answer to that question. Yes, I knew Valerie worked for the CIA. The CIA already knows the answer because they did her clearance in the last 5 years. It's written record, so people can't lie and tell a new tale.
#75
More importantly Mike, did he believe it? Or maybe, assuming he did see it, he read the whole report, and made a subjective judgement? Maybe he didn't slice-and-dice the "true meaning" to suit his own agenda?
Or, you could be right.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/15/2005 11:41 Comments ||
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#76
As another reminder, Tom Maguire continues to be on this story like a tick on a dog.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/15/2005 12:28 Comments ||
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#77
Re: #75 (Bobby):
My speculation is that 1) Cheney never heard of Wilson or his report until after Wilson published his article in the NYT and 2) then Cheney inquired about Wilson and his report, and 3) that inquiry revealed to Cheney that Wilson's trip had been recommended by Plame. The latter information was then thrown into the stew that eventually sloshed all over the place, making this mess.
I'm sure that Cheney was then informed formally about Wilson's report. Whatever Cheney thought of it at that time is beyond my own speculation.
I do think, though, that later events showed that the Niger matter should not have been mentioned in the State of the Union Address. Bush and Tenet themselves have admitted that much.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/15/2005 12:46 Comments ||
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#78
The following is lifted from The Note, ABC News's snarky daily political thingee:
Raise your hand if you are surprised that Bob Novak talked to Karl Rove about Valerie Plame before he wrote his original column.
(Note that neither 41 nor 42 are raising their hands.)
That shocking revelation behind us, ask yourself:
1. Who was the source for the New York Times and AP stories breaking the Novak/Rove news? (Seems pretty obvious to us, but we are too polite to say it aloud. . .)
2. What was the source's motivation for revealing the information now?
3. What would Ken Mehlman do without the "angry left"?
4. Who was the target audience for yesterday's Bush-Rove walk-and-talk photo op?
5. Did it work?
6. Will the Republican National Committee circulate today's breathtakingly fair Washington Post editorial on Joe Wilson's flawed record and the White House's past statements about Rove's potential involvement? (Or perhaps they will circulate only the parts of it they don't want us to miss?) LINK
7. Does the reporter who allegedly first told Karl Rove about Valerie Plame know who he or she is?
8. How does Karl Rove feel these days about Harry Reid's level of partisanship, as compared to how he felt about Tom Daschle's?
9. How much of today's blockbuster-if-it-weren't-in-a-tabloid New York Daily News must read story is accurate? LINK (Note the DeFrank gold standard co-byline. . .)
10. Who wrote (and edited) the latest very awesome Republican talking points defending Rove that address the Novak situation and much more?
So, when might the White House have an opportunity to address the latest news on Karl Rove's conversation with Novak?
The White House schedule doesn't include a gaggle or briefing, but it didn't yesterday either and McClellan gaggled on the plane. . . so stay tuned.
#79
Latest speculation from David May is that Wilson is the leaker, based on the first mention in the press that Plame may have been covert. Seems like a good case, and if Wilson did the same verbal game with Miller, it would explain why she went to jail to protect him.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 13:44 Comments ||
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#80
Side long BS it's all Aruba. Who was on the Gassy Knoll?
Posted by: ed ||
07/15/2005 06:12 ||
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#1
A spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Santa Clara, said: ''It is troubling to see a governmental organisation that is dedicated to security, promoting religiously insensitive ideas." Does your Council have a stated position on the London bombings, by the way?
The tour came after peace groups and a senator raised questions about the unit, set up to oversee a range of anti-terrorism projects in the state. And you Peace Groups and (which?) Senator - you believe if we leave the hive alone, the bees won't bother us?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/15/2005 7:24 Comments ||
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#2
Blood is so messy... Just smear lard all over the bullets... pig is pig... Don't waste a pack of expensive loin roast... Juat a rectangular package of good old Manteca!
They still think they are going to the firey regions, whichh they are, but the mind game is the same whether it is fat or blood...
#5
Muslim leaders and peace activists, who saw the poster during a tour of guard -headquarters, said the message raised concerns about the soldiers' attitudes to Islam.
They're giving tours to these assholes? What is this bullshit!
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/15/2005 00:52 ||
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#1
It could be that they understand that any moron who stands up in the aisle and makes a move for the cockpit or a flight attendant (or both) will be the guests of honor at a sock party.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The number of people from countries other than Mexico arrested trying to cross the U.S. southern border has almost doubled this year, the head of the U.S. border patrol told the U.S. Congress on Tuesday.
In all, the border patrol has detained 919,000 illegal immigrants so far this year, of whom 119,000 were non-Mexicans. The largest single number -- over 12,000 -- came from Brazil. U.S. officials believe the increase stems from non-Mexican illegal immigrants knowing they will be released even if they are caught crossing the border.
Mexicans caught by U.S. border patrols trying to enter the country illegally are usually immediately returned to their native land... But Mexico accepts only Mexicans, so any non-Mexicans are checked against government watch lists as a potential security or criminal threat. If their names do not appear, they are normally released on their own recognizance and told to appear at a deportation hearing often months in the future. Some 85 percent fail to show up for the hearing and are never seen again.
[Chief of the Border Patrol] Aguilar said that last year the border patrol detained 644 people from "countries of concern" and had stopped some 500 this year. They were subjected to intense interrogation and investigation.
Immigration bills being submitted to Congress seek to increase the detention space at the border, which currently stands at just under 20,000 beds. Aguilar said the best way to deter people from crossing the border illegally was to increase the number of those detained.
Leonard Kovensky, acting director of detention and removal operations at the Department of Homeland Security, told the subcommittee his department deported 85,000 illegal aliens with criminal records last year and had already removed over 45,000 in the first four months of this year.
At a separate subcommittee hearing on alien smuggling across the Mexican border, Indiana Republican Rep. Mark Souder criticized the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency for only devoting 7 percent of its investigative hours last year to the problem.
#1
any [of the 119,000 thus far this year who were] non-Mexicans are checked against government watch lists as a potential security or criminal threat. If their names do not appear, they are normally released on their own recognizance and told to appear at a deportation hearing often months in the future. Some 85 percent fail to show up for the hearing and are never seen again.
[Homeland Security] deported 85,000 illegal aliens with criminal records last year and had already removed over 45,000 in the first four months of this year.
Does this process seem counter-productive to you, too?
#2
I don't know about you guys but I'm shocked, simply shocked, that someone arrested for illegally sneaking into the US would further compound their crimes by not voluntarily showing up for their deportation hearing.
#5
Detain them for a year while we sort out who they are and who they paid to help them cross. They can live in a tent city jail like the one in Arizona.
Once word gets back that these guys are not only not getting paychecks but not going home for a year the flood will slow to a trickle.
#6
"Aguilar said that last year the border patrol detained 644 people from "countries of concern" and had stopped some 500 this year." Embrace Diversity!
UNITED NATIONS â The man who abruptly retired as Kofi Annan's cabinet chief after shredding papers related to the Oil-for-Food program has been shredding still more documents at the United Nations, an eyewitness told FOX News. Iqbal Riza, who has been working on a $1-a-year salary as a special advisor to Annan, has been shredding large quantities of unknown documents in his new 10th-floor U.N. office across the street from the U.N. Secretariat building, the source said.
According to the eyewitness, a U.N. staffer who works on the same floor as Riza, the retired cabinet chief arrived within days of leaving his old job, loaded down with many cartons of papers and files. Riza was not in his new office daily, but every day he appeared, he would put large numbers of material through an office shredder located in a public area. "It became the office joke," said the eyewitness, who did not wish to be identified for fear of falling down an elevator shaft reprisals from superiors. No one knew what the documents were, the eyewitness said.
Annan's office would neither confirm nor deny the fresh round of destruction. A spokesman for the secretary-general told FOX News that Riza was now working as a special adviser on a newly launched project to foster dialogue between the Islamic and Western worlds. "As part of his work on the Alliance of Civilizations ... he may have had to routinely destroy documents related to that project," the spokesman said. The spokesman said that all material previously in Riza's possession related to Oil-for-Food remained in Annan's office. Riza has not returned calls to FOX News for comment. A U.N. spokesman said he was out of the country.
Before becoming Annan's top aide, Riza was a Pakistani diplomat who had worked at the United Nations for more than 25 years. On Dec. 22, Annan announced that Riza would be retiring from his position effective Jan. 15. Annan said he agreed to Riza's departure "with very mixed emotions," saying "he ... has always provided me with wise and trusted counsel." One fact undisclosed at the time of Annan's announcement was that it came on the same day Riza admitted to investigators with the Independent Inquiry Committee into the Oil-for-Food program that he had destroyed documents related to the program.
Two days before, when first interviewed by investigators for IIC Chairman Paul Volcker, he did not tell them that he approved the destruction of three years worth of documents. But when he did admit to shredding documents, he described them as being duplicates â a point the IIC would eventually dispute in a March 29 report. "The committee does not find persuasive Mr. Riza's suggestion that his 'chron' files [chronological records] were only duplicates of files maintained elsewhere at the United Nations," the IIC report states.
Volcker's panel was commissioned by Annan to provide cover investigate the multi-billion-dollar program, which aimed to relieve Iraqi civilians from some effects of the sanctions imposed on Iraq after Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. Saddam allegedly gave former government officials, activists, journalists and U.N. officials vouchers for Iraqi oil that could be resold. Investigators claim the former Iraqi regime may have illegally made more than $21 billion by cheating the program and through other sanctions-busting schemes.
Among those accused of asking Saddam's regime for vouchers worth millions is Benon Sevan, hand-picked by Annan to run the entire Oil-for-Food program. Oh, Mike!
Posted by: Steve ||
07/15/2005 13:36 ||
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Geez, if you gotta keep walking back and forth across the street with boxes of documents to be shredded, that probably increases your chances of being hit by a bus. I'd think about that, Iqbal. I'd think about that a lot...
#2
Sorry, Kofi, but Mikey never hangs around after the shredding begins. He has an important Joe Wilson job to do before Joe starts shredding too.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/15/2005 14:56 Comments ||
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"The committee does not find persuasive Mr. Riza's suggestion that his 'chron' files [chronological records] were only duplicates of files maintained elsewhere at the United Nations," the IIC report states.
Odd. It worked for Berger.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 15:49 Comments ||
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Iqbal Riza, who has been working on a $1-a-year salary as a special advisor to Annan
Gotta love this, too. You wanna bet that token salary is just enough to maintain his diplomatic immunity?
Time to start declaring UN staff PNG, I think. Hell, PNG the whole rotten institution.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/15/2005 15:50 Comments ||
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Better watch your comments Neutron Tom they could come back and haunt you haunt you haunt you haunt you in a thread about the loss of Latvian Biomass.
A leading Iranian cleric says the British Government could have orchestrated last week's bombings in London to stir up flagging enthusiasm for British military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Four British-born Muslims blew themselves up in separate attacks on three underground trains and a bus during the morning rush hour, killing 54 and injuring hundreds.
Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, who heads Iran's top legislative watchdog the Guardian Council, says the British have themselves to blame.
"One possible set of culprits is Al Qaeda. But Al Qaeda is [US President George W] Bush and [Tony] Blair," he told worshippers at Friday prayers in Tehran, blaming the leaders for the growth of Islamic militancy.
"Who launched Al Qaeda? You must be tried, you who are the mothers of Al Qaeda."
He added: "The other likelihood is that the British regime may have carried out the attack itself ... because it benefits most... They want to justify their presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"They tell people, 'If we don't fight terrorism, this will happen to you'."
Ayatollah Jannati's remarks echoed editorials in Iran's hardline press that argued the attacks smacked of a plot by the British Government to justify anti-Muslim reprisals and military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Most Iranian conspiracy theories centre on Britain, which is labelled as "the old fox".
The suspicion has its roots in 19th Century Persia, where Russian and British agents jostled for control of routes to India in a series of military encounters and diplomatic intrigues known as "The Great Game."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 10:21 ||
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Brigadier General Esmail Ahmadi Moqaddam and deputy armed forces chief General Firouz Abadi attended a ceremony in Tehran yesterday. Moqaddam was appointed in this ceremony as the new national police chief of Iran. The new police chief promised an ethical and modern police force which would respect people's privacy, countering fears he may roll back fragile social freedoms in the Islamic state.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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The United States has launched a search for assets of Syrian arms suppliers to the former Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq. The Bush administration has designated two Syrian nationals and a Syrian company as supporters of the Saddam regime. Officials said the Syrians served as fronts for arms sales registered for other countries but diverted to Baghdad. The Treasury Department identified SES International Corp., Gen. Zuhayr Shalish and Asif Shalish as supporters of the former Iraqi regime. The department said it would block the flow of money and assets to these Syrians and the Damascus-based firm. "Zuhayr and Asif used SES as a vehicle to put military goods into the hands of Saddam Hussein and his regime, all while evading UN sanctions," Treasury Undersecretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence Stuart Levey said.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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TEL AVIV - Close buddies? Top terrorist Zakaria Zubeidi made a ââ¬Åguest appearanceââ¬? in a video prepared by the staff of Reuters news agency in Israel and the Palestinian Authority as a ââ¬Ågoing awayââ¬? gift for a colleague, Ynetnews has learned.
Zubeidi, who heads Fatahââ¬â¢s al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Jenin, has been named by security officials as a key figure in organizing terror attacks on Israeli civilians.
Zubeidiââ¬â¢s al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades have claimed responsibility for more than 300 terror acts in the last five years.
A Reuters spokeswoman confirmed the videoââ¬â¢s existence, but said the London-based news organization is ââ¬Ånot associated with any group or faction in any conflict.ââ¬?
The screening, which occurred in a Jerusalem restaurant last March, involved the showing of a video during a private party.
"The video's theme was what Israel would be like in 10 years," said an Israeli government official who attended the party and viewed the video.
"All of a sudden, at the end, there is Zakaria Zubeidi, playing the head of Reuters. Zubeidi was sitting in Reuters' Jenin office, saying he was Reutersââ¬â¢ chief,ââ¬? the official said.
'They thought video was hilarious'
The party included guests from the BBC, ITN, the Independent newspaper, and French journalists.
"They all thought the video was hilarious," the official said. He added that only a few individuals did not seem amused during the screening.
"They were laughing; they thought it was very funny, he said.â�
Reuters spokeswoman Susan Allsopp said in a statement to Ynetnews that the film ââ¬Åwas a spoof video put together for a departing member of staff by a few of his colleagues in Israel and the Palestinian territories. It was shown at a private farewell party and was meant to be humorous.
ââ¬ÅAs soon as editorial management in Jerusalem became aware of the video they told the staff involved that Reuters found it to be inappropriate and in poor taste,ââ¬? the statement said. ââ¬ÅThe member of staff for whom the party had been held has never met Mr. Zubeidi. Reuters would like to make it clear that it is not associated with any group or faction in any conflict.ââ¬?
Riiiight
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/15/2005 21:00 ||
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SPORTING black turbans or skull caps, the young men squat on a carpet in a crowded classroom and listen in silence to a lecture given by a thickly bearded, middle-aged cleric.
The students are at the final stage of their religious education at Darul Uloom Haqqania, one of Pakistanâs leading institutions of Islamic learning. Situated in the town of Akora Khatak, near Peshawar, the radical seminary is often described as the âUniversity of Jihadâ.
At least two of the London suicide bombers attended such a school.
The seminary, which was established in 1947, has been the cradle of the Taleban militia that ruled Afghanistan for more than five years before being ousted by the American-led coalition forces in 2001. Many of the Taleban leaders had graduated from the school.
The seminary has also been a recruiting centre for militant Pakistani groups fighting Indian forces in the disputed region of Kashmir. Many of its 2,500 students come from Afghanistan. But the number of foreign students has fallen after government pressure.
âThe bomb attacks in London are the reaction against the British Governmentâs support for Americaâs war against Muslims,â said Maulana Samiul Haq, a fiery, black-turbaned cleric who is head of the seminary. He is also an MP in Pakistan. âThe loss of innocent lives is regrettable, but the British Government should think why it all happened. It is time to review its policy on Iraq and Afghanistan.â
The school teaches the concept of jihad to prepare students to fight for the cause of Islam. âJihad is an essential part of Islam,â said Mr Haq.
The proliferation of jihadi organisations in Pakistan over the past two decades has been the result of the militant culture espoused by radical madrassas, the hardline religious schools, like Darul Uloom Haqqania. They pose a threat to Pakistanâs internal security as well as abroad. Madrassas were once considered centres for basic religious learning, mostly attached to local mosques. The more formal ones were used for training clergy. The evolution of simple religious schools into training centres for Kalashnikov-toting religious warriors is directly linked with the rise of militant Islam.
Most of the pupils come from the poorest section of society and receive free religious education, lodgings and meals. Most of the madrassas have been isolated from the outside world for centuries. Students are brainwashed and the textbooks provide a one-dimensional world view that restricts their thought process.
Conditions in the schools are regularly condemned by human rights groups as crowded and inhuman. The day begins at dawn with morning prayer. A simple breakfast of bread and tea is served, followed by lessons, which continue until evening.
The students are subjected to a regime as harsh as any jail and physical abuse is commonplace. In many schools students are put in chains and heavy iron fetters for the slightest violation of rules. There are almost no extracurricular activities. Television and radio are banned. Teaching is very rudimentary and students are taught religion from a highly traditional perspective.
At the primary stage, pupils learn how to read, memorise and recite the Koran. Though the focus is on religious learning, some institutions also teach elementary mathematics, science and English.
The most dangerous consequence of the schools is that students emerge ill-prepared for any work except guiding the faithful in rituals that do not require great expertise. Job opportunities for graduates are few and far between. They can only work in mosques, madrassas or religious parties and their business affiliates.
The education imparted by traditional madrassas spawns factional, religious and cultural conflicts. It creates barriers to modern knowledge and breeds bigotry, laying the foundation on which fundamentalism is based. Divided along sectarian lines, these institutions are driven by the zeal to outnumber and dominate rival sects.
The rise of a jihad culture since the 1980s has given them a new sense of purpose. The number of madrassas multiplied and clergy emerged as a powerful political and social force. At independence in 1947 there were only 137 madrassas in Pakistan. Government sources put todayâs figure at 13,000 with total enrolment close to 1.7 million.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 10:35 ||
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Pakistan Fails Terror Test
"In the past couple of decades, owing almost entirely to Saudi money and influence, the emphasis in Pakistan's madrassa curriculum shifted from the standard pillars of faith, such as prayer, charity and pilgrimage, to the violent jihad. The madrassas now teach young students that the world is divided into believers and unbelievers. Jews, Hindus and Christians are routinely portrayed as evil usurpers. "
This is all quite deliberate. The madrassa expansions followed defeats in wars with India.
Given how much radical islam and jihad is ingrained in the Pakistani view of self, can they shut down the jihad factories?
Jinnah himself threatened Jihad against the British if they did not partition India.
Posted by: john ||
07/15/2005 11:20 Comments ||
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The contact an connection between bin-Laden and Saddahm ceased on January 20, 2001, when Clinton left office. They had an agreement! And the MSM just reported the "facts"
Apart from the Pakistani link, the report now suggests that Shehzad Tanweer was one of the four bombers who struck London on July 7. Shehzad Tanweer was taught terror tactics in Osama bin Laden's house, it was revealed yesterday. Tanweer, from Leeds, spent time at Markaz-e-Dawa, a notorious religious school in north Pakistan. Fellow bombers Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, and Hasib Hussain, 18, are also thought to have visited religious schools in Pakistan.
Aldgate bomber Tanweer paid his visit during a three-month stay ending in February. Pakistani authorities have quizzed his father's relatives in Faisalabad to trace his movements.
Bomber Hussain has also been to Pakistan last year. It is not known if he met Tanweer. A file on their movements will be passed to London and is seen as important in the hunt for any other militants planning possible suicide bomb attacks in Britain.
Tanweer arrived in Pakistan last December and stayed in Lahore, a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism. He went to Markaz-e-Dawa, the religious school, or madrassa, co-founded by Al-Qaeda leader bin Laden and built on a 190-acre site at Muridke, 30 miles from Lahore. It contains a mosque, an iron foundry, a garment factory, a woodworking centre, three residences for recruits, and 30 schools. It is also said to house a computer centre. It turns out religious fanatics and preaches a message of hate against the West.
Bin Laden had a house there until he went on the run in the early 1990s. Intelligence experts believe in addition to teaching the Quran, the school runs a 21-day course covering assassinations and bomb-making training.
Major General Afsir Karim, writing in the Asian Journal on International Terrorism, said of Markaz-e-Dawa: "Thousands of people assemble there during recruitment rallies. The importance of jihad is drummed in and emotional speeches and rhetoric move people to tears and frenzied chanting.
"He alleges some students get specialised instruction in sabotage. It is reported in Pakistan that most of the world's terrorist leaders visit the school. Among those to stay was Ramzi Yousef who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. Guards blocked the entrance road yesterday and turned away all strangers. Tanweer also visited Jamia Manzoorul Islamia, a madrassa in Lahore. It was also heavily guarded yesterday. Bearded men carrying AK-47s checked every person entering the school's mosque. One said 1,200 students studied religion at the school.
A nearby shopkeeper said dozens were "foreigners". A source confirmed: "It appears Tanweer spent some time at Markaz-e-Dawa and at another militant seminary in the city. "It is speculated in Pakistan that he may have fallen into the clutches of Jaish-i-Muhammad, or Army of Muslims, radical Islamists behind dozens of suicide attacks. It is banned in Pakistan, but sources said yesterday it operates under the cover of a madrassa.
The group also runs military training camps in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bosnia and was responsible for kidnapping British UN worker Annetta Flanigan at gunpoint in Kabul last October. She and two other UN workers were repeatedly threatened with beheading before being released unharmed after 27 days. Pakistan is likely to come under renewed pressure to crack down on seminaries, but such moves are sensitive, as previous attempts to curb their activities have sparked huge protests by religious zealots.
Meanwhile, an acquaintance of Edgware Road bomber, Khan yesterday claimed the former teacher had visited Afghanistan and Pakistan for military-style training. The man, who refused to be identified, told the BBC he regarded Khan as a "fruitcake" who often voiced anger over the effects of Western foreign policy in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. Unaware of his death, he contacted police last weekend to tell them he believed Khan may be indoctrinating younger people.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 10:17 ||
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ISLAMABAD - One of the London suicide bombers met in 2003 with a man later arrested for a church bombing in Pakistan, an intelligence official said on Friday. Pakistani security agencies are investigating possible links between militant groups based in Pakistan and Shehzad Tanweer, a Briton of ethnic-Pakistani origin who was one of four bombers in the July 7 attack that killed at least 54 people. One of the groups being checked is Jaish-e-Mohammad (Army of Mohammad), linked to Al Qaeda and banned by Pakistan in 2002. The other group is Lashkar-e-Taiba, which like Jaish has a record of fighting in Indian Kashmir, but unlike Jaish has a reputation for tight discipline and is not known to have any operational ties with Al Qaeda.
They're just close friends
Bullshit meter's pegging here...
One Pakistani intelligence source said Tanweer visited Pakistan in 2003 and 2004. During the first visit, the source said, Tanweer met Osama Nazir, who was arrested last December for the 2002 bombing of a church in Islamabad that killed two Americans among others. âHe met Osama Nazir in a mosque in Faisalabad,â an intelligence official said. Tanweerâs family comes from Faisalabad, a city in eastern Pakistan. Nazir was a member of Jaish, and security agents called in Jaish supremo Maulana Azhar Masood on Thursday for questioning. âSo far all leads are heading towards Jaish-e-Mohammad,â an intelligence official said. British-born Islamic militant Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, now under sentence of death for the murder of US reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002, was also believed to be a member of Jaish.
I've come to the conclusion Omar's an independent operator, with his own pickup team for the Pearl killing. His minions came from a half dozen different groups.
Another intelligence official said Tanweer, 22, had made a second visit to Pakistan in late 2004 and had stayed in the city of Lahore from December until last February, during which he visited several mosques and madrassahs, or religious schools. One madrassah was in Muridke, on the outskirts of Lahore and home of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, a hardline Islamic charity organisation made up of cadres of Lashkar-e-Taiba. âWe are looking into whether Tanweer had any links with these people,â the second intelligence official said. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf banned both Jaish and Lashkar but they later resurfaced under new names.
Lashkar remains the ISI's jihadi "strategic reserve."
On Friday, after promising British Prime Minister Tony Blair Pakistanâs âfullest support and assistanceâ in the investigation into the London bombings, Musharraf ordered police chiefs to launch a new campaign against the radical groups. He instructed them to crack down on banned groups collecting donations, displaying arms, holding of gatherings and to confiscate all pamphlets and videos inciting hatred. âPakistan ... stands at a crossroads in its history and there is an urgent need to address extremism existing on the fringes of its society,â an official statement quoted Musharraf as saying.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/15/2005 10:12 ||
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Osama bin Laden's standing has dropped significantly in some pivotal Muslim countries, while support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence has "declined dramatically," according to a new survey released yesterday.
Predominantly Muslim populations in a sampling of six North African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries share to a "considerable degree" Western concerns about Islamic extremism, according to the poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, conducted by the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan and nonprofit organization.
"Most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries, and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam," the poll concluded.
The one exception is attitudes toward suicide bombings of U.S and Western targets in Iraq, a subject on which Muslims were divided. Roughly half of Muslims in Lebanon, Jordan and Morocco said such attacks are justifiable, while sizable majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia disagreed. Yet, support for suicide bombings in Iraq still declined by as much as 20 percent compared with a poll taken last year.
The results, which also reveal widespread support for democracy, show how profoundly opinions have changed in parts of the Muslim world since Pew took similar surveys in recent years. The poll attributed the difference in attitudes toward extremism to both the terrorist attacks in Muslim nations and the passage of time since the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Might also be that they're seeing the U.S. do exactly what it promised in Iraq: help the Iraqi people take control of their own country and establish a free society--instead of doing the "realist" thing, setting up a "friendly" thugocracy and leaving.
. . . The survey, conducted from April through mid-June, before the London bombings, polled 17,000 people in the six Muslim-dominated countries and in 11 major Western and Asian nations, including the United States. They were asked about their attitudes toward Islam, Muslim nations and extremist violence. More than 6,200 interviews in Muslim countries were conducted in person, while interviews in the West and in Asia were done by telephone and in person.
The new poll also found that growing majorities or pluralities of Muslims now say that democracy can work in their countries and is not just a Western ideology. Support for democracy was in the 80 percent range in Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and Morocco. It was selected by 43 percent in Pakistan and 48 percent in Turkey -- the largest blocks of respondents in both countries because significant numbers were unsure.
"They are not just paying lip service. They are saying they specifically want a fair judiciary, freedom of expression and more than one party in elections. It wasn't just a vague concept," Kohut said. "U.S. and Western ideas about democracy have been globalized and are in the Muslim world."
At the same time, most Muslims surveyed said they think Islam is playing an increasing role in their politics, a development they view as a positive shift in response to economic problems, growing immorality and concern about Western influence. Jordan was the only exception.
The survey results indicate that growing numbers of Muslims differentiate between what they consider the peaceful influence of Islamic values in politics and the use of religion to justify attacks. "The people who see Islam playing an important role in political life are the ones most worried about extremism," Kohut said. . . .
. . . The decline in support for suicide bombings was largest in Indonesia, which has witnessed deadly bombings at a Marriott hotel in Jakarta and at a Bali tourist hotel -- attacks that seriously affected tourism and foreign investment. Jordan was the only country where the majority surveyed -- 57 percent -- still support terrorist acts in defense of Islam, possibly because the majority Palestinian population is emotionally invested in tied to the conflict with Israel, Kohut said.
Wonder if that would hold if the bombs were exploding in Amman?
Posted by: Mike ||
07/15/2005 10:02 ||
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Seeing OBL's popularity wane in the Muslim world is a good sign but he still averages 30% in the countries listed. That would equate to something like 400,000,000 folks in the Muslim world who'd "trust bin Laden to the the right thing regarding world affairs." Faster please.
#2
I am sure that the people being polled are lying through their teeth. Bin Laden is undoubtedly still a hero in the Muslim world. But the very fact that it is no longer respectable to openly express for bin Laden is, in itself, telling.
#3
Maybe this is a case of the "who have you killed for us, lately" attitude.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/15/2005 12:23 Comments ||
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Doesn't mean all too much does it. There is a whole septic tank cleaner truck full of em to choose from for righteous leadership. All variations on the same sickening sour flavor.
#7
The January Iraqi Elections are responsible for the surge of support for democracy in the middle east. W was and is right, freedom will spread. In 50 years from now I see a democratic and free middle east, God willing.
Islamic militant groups with links to Al Qaeda appear to have growing ties to the Kashmiri militants, and overlap with Pakistan's ISI.
Bruce Hoffman, the chairman of the RAND Corporation,told the Los Angeles Times, "There is tremendous overlap, and that is the problem, between bin Laden and Al Qaeda, the Pakistani authorities and the Kashmiri groups."
One of the analysts who works with him at the RAND Corporation, Rollie Lau says, "it's a relationship that's been evolving over time."
"While the Kashmir conflict is more than five decades old," Ms. Lau says "some of the ties can be traced back to the Cold War, when the U.S. supported efforts to train fighters for the Soviet war next door in Afghanistan." She said " the relationship, I'd say, is not particularly new.To a large extent, these groups have been working together definitely, since 9-11 but prior to that, in different ways."
The Kashmir conflict and Al Qaeda's base along the Afghan-Pakistan border is separated by hundreds of miles of rugged terrain. Despite the geographic division, U.S. analysts feel that that the groups share common goals of training, and more. She said that these groups share an intrinsic philosophical and ideological perspective.
"They can share training, they can share information but beyond that, what you're seeing is a shared ideological perspective, that they fundamentally believe in things like a fundamentalist Islamic state or the overthrow of some of these regimes that they believe are apostate," Lau says.
The key to Mr. Hoffman's analysis is the question of overlap between Pakistan's ISI and the Islamic militants, with ties to Al Qaeda and to the Kashmir conflict. The RAND Corporation's Rollie Lau believes the ISI ties are likely to be informal.
But, she cautions, while there are definitely people within Pakistan's ISI who sympathize with Islamic militants, this does not mean that it is an official policy of President Musharraf's government.
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has repeatedly promised that his government is pursuing al Qaeda, that the U.S. must not violate Pakistan's sovereignty to pursue Osama bin Laden and that he is cracking down on terrorist training camps.
Senior U.S. counter-terrorism officials have claimed that Pakistan military and intelligence are well-aligned with the radical fundamentalists and that President Musharraf is in a pickle, he's trying to play it at both ends.
But, Rollie Lau feels this strategy isn't working, that politically, President Musharraf is failing to satisfy both the Islamic militants, who want an nation based purely on their vision of Islamic law and the secularists.
She feels that President Musharraf is angering many, and ignoring the vast middle of Pakistan, while personally religious, has a secular slant on politics. She's not convinced he can continue to isolate the secularists while failing to please the Islamic fundamentalists.
Even U.S. officials have recognized, Pakistan's ISI continues to work closely with the Kashimir groups and maintains ties to the al-Qaeda related groups to protect the countries interests next door in Afghanistan. They aren't surprised that President Musharraf has not cracked down on the training camps, but Rollie Lau isn't convinced that he has the political capital and resources to actually do that.
Washington analysts feel, this failure to crack down on terrorist training camps is beginning to chip away at the Washington-Islamabad alliance.
And, the most recent example of how terrorism is being exported is the recent train and bus bombings in London. While the bombers were British citizens, they were of Pakistani descent. Its their ties to their homeland that have suspecting that terrorism is being exported to Western backyards.
As British officials continue their investigation, their search has come to U.S. shores. The FBI is looking into an Egyptian born chemist, who taught at Leeds University, but did graduate work at North Carolina State University.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/15/2005 10:03 ||
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Give everyone 30 days to move out of the disputed region then make it ground zero for some Bikini Island tests - dispute over. 16 years of parenthood has probably warped my judgement with respect to the resolution of petty bickering.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/15/2005 12:41 Comments ||
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Three brothers were killed and their 12-year-old sister was critically injured when a hand grenade they were playing with exploded in Jhal Magsi, an official said on Thursday. The three brothers â a five-year-old and twins aged eight â died instantly in the blast late on Wednesday in Jhal Magsi, a small town 375 kilometres southeast of Quetta, said Aslam Raisani, a government administrator. Their 12-year-old sister was critically injured and remained in hospital, he added.
The children had found the grenade in a field used for farming and believed it was a toy. They were playing with the explosive device back at their home when it blew up, Raisani said. Scattered hand grenades and other unexploded ordinance are a legacy of ongoing feudal disputes in Balochistan.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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The Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) pledged to introduce "Taliban-style of governance" in Pakistan, states a document obtained by Daily Times on Thursday. The document dated September 22, 2002, and issued after a meeting of the six components of the religious alliance in Islamabad states that every effort should be made to introduce "Taliban-style of governance" in Pakistan. This pledge was made a month before the October 2002 general elections.
The MMA could not win the poll to form government in the centre, but returned with an absolute majority to the NWFP Assembly where it is currently passing a controversial law that the opposition and federal government equates with 'Talibanisation'. The document, unpublished until now, was signed by Maulana Fazlur Rehman, the late Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani, Prof Sajid Mir, Allama Sajid Ali Naqvi and Qazi Hussain Ahmed.
They bought it, now let them enjoy it.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer sharply rebuked the Palestinian leadership on Thursday, telling the prime minister the Palestinians will never have an independent state until "violence and terrorism" end.
Joschka said that? Fair takes my breath away...
Fischer's unusually strong comments came two days after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed five Israelis in an attack in the coastal city of Netanya. "Terrorism will have no positive results, and there will be no chance to establish an independent Palestinian state as long as violence and terrorism continue," Fischer said after meeting Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia.
Israel and the United States have long demanded that Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas rein in and disarm militants, a move he has so far been reluctant to take. After the bombing, Israel said Abbas' refusal to confront the militants allowed them to continue waging attacks. But Fischer assured the Palestinians that Israel's withdrawal next month from the Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements would not be the end of international efforts to bring peace to the region. "Our policy is not fixated on Gaza, but seeks an independent, peaceful and democratic Palestinian state. This is the objective of the 'road map,'" Fischer said referring to an internationally backed peace plan.
Qureia said the Palestinians would help ensure the Gaza withdrawal passes quietly, and told Fischer Palestinian security forces were "ready to impose law and order after the withdrawal." Abbas said he was going to Gaza later Thursday to help plan the upcoming pullout. There are fears Palestinians could loot the abandoned Jewish property. "We are preparing for the day after the withdrawal," Abbas said, reiterating his desire that the withdrawal lead to the implementation of the U.S.-backed road map peace plan, which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#3
raptor, I believe the Paleostinians have already said they will raze any dwellings and build new ones. They won't live in a house once occupied by "dirty joos". A totally hopless people.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
07/15/2005 10:50 Comments ||
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#4
that's what they said in English. What did they say in Arabic? "Ooooohhh look! A toilet! How does it work?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/15/2005 23:05 Comments ||
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A group of Sunni Muslim clerics and politicians urged fellow Sunnis on Thursday to take part in the coming elections, saying it is in their interest if they want to play a bigger political role in the future. Many Sunnis boycotted the January ballot. The call came after a meeting by the General Conference of Sunnis that discussed plans for the Dec. 15 general elections, the drafting of the country's new constitution and reports of detentions and killings of Sunnis by Shiite-led security forces.
The clerical Association of Muslim Scholars did not participate in the conference although some of its members were present. The group opposes participating in the elections as long as there is no timetable for the withdrawal of multinational forces from Iraq. Still the association said it would not try to prevent Sunnis from voting or running for office. The Iraqi Islamic Party, the country's largest Sunni political group, participated in Thursday's meeting. "We see that it is in our interest to prepare for participating in the coming elections," the Sunni clerics said after the Thursday meeting. "We urge Iraqis to register their names at elections centers."
Most members of the minority Sunni Arab community, which forms the core of the anti-American insurgency, boycotted the country's landmark Jan. 30 elections, either fearing insurgent attacks or heeding boycott calls by rebels and hard-line clerics. That helped Shiites and Kurds win control of the new government. "The future of the Sunnis hinges on the coming elections and if we don't exert our efforts to urge Sunnis to take part in the vote we will never stand on our feet again," said Sheik Ibrahim al-Niaama of the northern city of Mosul.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/15/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
I guess, for some of the Sunnis, anyway, the massive "F**kin Duh" moment has now passed.
#2
Are the Sunni finally waking up a getting a clue? Sitting out the last election was an big mistake. It put a big target on them. Lots of these tribes can't mover fast enough to put distance between them and the "insurgents" now.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Britain's heir to the throne 
THE country's most radical Islamic cleric said yesterday he doubted whether the London bombers were Muslim, saying their actions were un-Islamic. Melbourne's 
Muslims in Austria are hopeful the government would remain tolerant in dealing with the minority after the London terrorist attacks, as a new security report warned against the danger of "Islamic terror" to national security. "I hope the government remains tolerant towards Muslims," Egyptian-born Osama Ikram told IslamOnline.net Thursday, July 14.
Brigadier General Esmail Ahmadi Moqaddam and deputy armed forces chief General Firouz Abadi attended a ceremony in Tehran yesterday. Moqaddam was appointed in this ceremony as the new national police chief of Iran. The new police chief promised an ethical and modern police force which would respect people's privacy, countering fears he may roll back fragile social freedoms in the Islamic state.
Three brothers were killed and their 12-year-old sister was critically injured when a hand grenade they were playing with exploded in Jhal Magsi, an official said on Thursday. The three brothers â a five-year-old and twins aged eight â died instantly in the blast late on Wednesday in Jhal Magsi, a small town 375 kilometres southeast of Quetta, said Aslam Raisani, a government administrator. Their 12-year-old sister was critically injured and remained in hospital, he added.
The 
German Foreign Minister 
Israel and the United States have long demanded that Palestinian leader 
A group of Sunni Muslim clerics and politicians urged fellow Sunnis on Thursday to take part in the coming elections, saying it is in their interest if they want to play a bigger political role in the future. Many Sunnis boycotted the January ballot. The call came after a meeting by the General Conference of Sunnis that discussed plans for the Dec. 15 general elections, the drafting of the country's new constitution and reports of detentions and killings of Sunnis by Shiite-led security forces.
