The body of a man, possibly a Westerner, was found Sunday near the National Guard headquarters, Saudi security officials said. The manâs nationality could not be confirmed, and it was not immediately known if he was an American that al-Qaida claimed to have kidnapped in a statement issued Saturday. That statement, signed by "Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula," said the captive would be treated as U.S. troops treated prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib prison â a reference to sexual and other abuses at the Iraqi prison. It also said al-Qaida would release a videotape later with "confessions" by the kidnapped man and the groupâs demands. If the body is that of a Westerner, it would be the fourth killing of a foreigner within a week. It has not hit the news yet. A body was found near Harar Field alongside a pick up truck. Around noon, there were rumors that an Australian and a Philipino were killed in Riyadh. No confirmation yet.
#1
Rooters is reporting Saudi Police saying it wasn't a Westerner. In fact, in classic Saudi style, the question of a body of any variety being found is unclear: "There is no truth to media reports that the body of someone of Western nationality was found in the streets of Riyadh."
-Riyadh Police Chief
#2
So, did they kill this guy, whoever it was, for the publication of this video, or did Amhed just have it in his home tape collection of Friday night hijinks and they just claimed it was a westerner?
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
06/13/2004 13:01 Comments ||
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#3
A4617 - The killing of Robert Jacobs on Tuesday in front of his garage is also rather weird. This is the guy that they "followed home" to kill. I saw no reference in any of the stories regarding whether or not he lived within a compound - and if he did, how did they get in? I knew very very few Westerners who did not live inside a gated compound. I lived out in the shit in 92-93, but that was then - now is definitely different. Jacobs worked for a firm which has many employees and it is possible he had the status to arrange his own living arrangements, but who would choose to live outside - in the shit?
#4
.com,
From what people are saying here, it seems that he was one of those westerners who thought that these people would never turn against him. He thought that just because he went to the Camel races and other local events with them, he would be proctected. Your read right. He made his own living arrangments.
You will not believe this but about 7 drillers have quit so far. I told my husband, if the drillers are quitting, it is time to go!
Riyadh, June 13, SPA-- The Police Director of Riyadh Region has denied news reported by some news agencies and media which said that a body of a western nationality was found in a street in Riyadh city.
The Director stated that this news is incorrect. --SPA 1904 Local Time 1604 GMT
http://www.spa.gov.sa/html/sps_enews.htm
Surprise, surprise. The body will probably re-appear in a more convenient location.
#6
A4617 - When you say drillers - you mean drilling companies who provide crews? Schlumberger, etc? If the drillers go, then the mud men, wireline guys, etc. will go too - no work without the drillers.
No. They were Aramco employees. There is a mini-exodus going on right now. By next week, we are expecting a full blown one. I have the feeling that the Jihadis will pull a major one soon. They now that expats have very short memories and the have to keep the momentum going.
German reportedly found dead in Saudi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Big News Network.com Monday 14th June, 2004
Western diplomats in Saudi Arabia said the body of a Westerner discovered by authorities Sunday was believed to be a German citizen.
They said the body was found in Riyadh, near the headquarters of the head of the Saudi National Guard. There was no immediate official confirmation of the discovery.
Saudi police sources said earlier in the day an American working in the country was reported missing Saturday, and that his car was found abandoned.
That man is believed to have been kidnapped by a militant group calling itself the Fallujah Squadron - the Voice of Jihad of al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula.
#9
A4617 - Gotcha. You're spot-on with the short memories and the jihadis needing to maintain the pressure to succeed - but we both know they will. The money is there, the cannon fodder is there, and the motivation is there. I believe you about the exodus. As soon as the schools let go of their kids, I'll bet many will exit for a month - and then decide what to do. The man, if an Aramcon, will have to come back, go through all of the paperwork crap (which can take quite awhile), pack everything up, etc. Some might just say screw it and leave everything there, not even come back to pack it up. But I believe you're right - August / September will reveal a LOT of available 2-3 BDRM units available in camp. The Saudis on the waiting list will go wild! Lol!
To be honest, I'll bet many people here are having trouble picturing the exact logic that the jihadis are using. How, exactly, will running off the Westerners bring down the Saudis... directly, it doesn't work (see Stratfor article of last week)... But the problem is that we think like Westerners...
I think there are 2 separate goals:
1) Get the infidels out of Muslim Lands
2) Bring down the Royals
And these don't necessarily interconnect / overlap, as most of us would expect from a comprehensive strategy. The attack on the Royals will be pursued separately, yet the Press will never figure that out and keep publishing all kinds of looney speculation about how this attack or that attack achieves the combined goal - when they are actually separate things pursued in parallel.
#10
The company knows it has a huge problem in their hands. Believe or not, they have relaxed their policies to the point that an employee does not even have to give a 30 days notice to quit. Wives can stay out indefinitely and they are talking about monetary incentives. It is tough trying to cover their asses, legally speaking, while trying to keep the people from leaving.
About the saudis going crazy over the new available houses applies to the sunnis. The shi'as are running very, very scared. Moving into camp is the last thing in their minds right now!
I believe you are right when you say that, getting the infidels out of the Land of the Prophet is one of the goals of the Jihadis. But I do believe that they want to bring down just one brach of the Royals: the one headed by Abdullah.
It will be a long time before The Press (may never will) and most westerners understand what is going on in this country. They will either have to move here for a while or devolve to before the age of enlightment.
#11
A4617 - Any Shi'a already in the camp would be relatively old-timers (back when tech competence was more important than hiring 3 Sunni do-nothings, heh) - are they leaving the camp? I'm sure a Shi'a has no chance on the waiting list, assuming they were allowed on it in the last 5 years!
Re: relaxation of the rules - I'll bet you that anyone taking early exit gets seriously penalized. Aramco has always been pissy and shitty about the retirment plan - especially if you opt for full cash out lump sum. Nasty pricks.
Bringing down Abdullah's faction (remember, he's backed by a good number of the other Princes - beneath the Big Seven) without affecting Nayef / Turki will be a touchy thing. I said it yesterday, I think Abdullah needs to execute a Palace coup and take out Nayef. Turki's off in London, right? But that doesn't mean he's safe. Wotta bunch. Even the good ones are, by any reasonable measure, bad: "The Zionists behind everything!" Sigh.
You're right about the Press, too. Funny thing is, even when they interview people who know something, they spin it and run off into AgendaLand to draw their story conclusion.
Nothing will stop the exodus, now. Watch for a large hit - there's some speculation that the individual killings in Riyadh may be a distraction from big hit elsewhere. probably 50-50 whether it's Khobar or Jeddah (Yanbu).
Take great care! You probably already feel like a prisoner. BTW, did you read any of the on-line book I linked for you? There was some violence inside Aramco Camp during 1967 war with Israel - and described in there.
#12
A4617, take great care there. Talk to hubby and remind him that a job can be replaced but a life can't be. Y'all come on home now. Swing by Chicago and I'll buy you and family dinner -- nice seafood place right here in my village, and .com can come too (he's buying the wine but he doesn't know it yet -- ssshhhhh!).
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/13/2004 16:06 Comments ||
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#13
".com can come too (he's buying the wine but he doesn't know it yet -- ssshhhhh!)"
Lol! But is that fair? You see, I don't drink - that was one reason why I tolerated Saudi better than some. I'll pick the food tab!
#14
Deal! I have no aversion to paying the bar tab, especially if you're not drinking. Now if Fred is there, being an ex-paratrooper 'n all, I'm in trouble.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/13/2004 22:19 Comments ||
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#15
Thanks .com and Steve. We might take you up that offer. We are going to be in Lansing (on the other side of the lake) pretty soon.
Yemeni security authorities imposed restrictions yesterday on media coverage of the trial of 14 people charged with terrorism offenses, denying journalists access to the courtroom. Reporters working for local and international media were prevented from attending the hearing and were only briefed after the session by one of the defense lawyers. The lawyer, Muhammad Naji Allaw, said the ban was not imposed by the court, but rather by security authorities. âIt is not the decision of the court. Security authorities are acting beyond the courtâs orders,â he said, adding that such restrictions would âraise doubts on the fairness of the trial procedures.â The defendants face various charges, some of them with involvement in the October 2002 bombing of a French supertanker off the southeastern coast of Yemen.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:37 ||
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The surge in terror attacks in the Kingdom has rattled the nearly nine million expatriates in the country. Worry is particularly strong among Westerners working in the oil sector, banking and other high-level businesses. But with many families going away for the summer holiday, the long-term impact of the attacks might not transpire before fall and may depend on what happens in the meantime, expatriates and diplomats said. Peace and tranquility were among the major reasons for many expatriates to stay in the country. There were thousands of families, both Western and Asian, who preferred to live in the Kingdom rather than in their own country because they felt safe here. But the bloodbath in Alkhobar on May 29-30 has cast one reason for their presence here into doubt.
Many Westerners are not renewing their contracts, and some who said after past attacks that they wanted to stay changed their minds after Alkhobar, said Pam Simmons, a Canadian in her fifties. The taking of hostages at Alkhobar had a tremendous psychological effect, said a French Embassy spokesperson, explaining the missionâs decision to bring forward the summer holiday at the three French schools in the country by two weeks âto enable families who wish to go home earlier to do so.â An official at the International School Group (ISG) said the number of students enrolled in American, British and international schools managed by the group, now standing at some 3,000, had declined and a further decrease was expected in the next academic year.
Lucile Pons-van der Slikke, a French business consultant, said she thought the âturning pointâ was the May 1 shooting spree that left six Westerners dead in the industrial city of Yanbu. Before that, Saudi Arabia had been hit by a wave of suicide bombings, but expatriates saw these attacks as part of global terrorism, she said. Yanbu, followed by Alkhobar, fell in a different category, âwith people having their throats slit and non-Muslims identified and targeted,â she said. Pons-van der Slikke said that while she works with Saudis and had received many expressions of sympathy from local acquaintances, other Westerners felt isolated and the government needed to be more outspoken in terms of making them feel welcome here.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:32 ||
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#1
This is a surprisingly complete recap of a number of other stories from other sources - considering it's ArabNews.
The "opinion management" spin is hollow BS and fails: "Yet while the constant threat of a terrorist attack remains among expatriate communities, the majority still believes that the situation does not warrant a hasty departure. Many believe that the problems will eventually be resolved and the old days of peace and tranquility will return."
This will be an employment boom for Saudis and AOA's (Arabs and Other Asians - an Aramco designation).
#2
.com---Re: the possible employment boom for Saudis and AOAs. Will there be people qualified to take over the high power and technical jobs? It seems to me that the terrorists want to drive out the foreigners to bring down the princes, or is Nayaf in cahoots with the terrorists, and to what level?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 13:42 Comments ||
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#3
AP - "qualified" is a flexible term when you think about it. I posted a fairly long response to Frank G about a week ago about what I thought the fallout of the Westerner exodus would mean. To my surprise (!!!) my take was echoed in the Strafor post last week.
There are qualified people not from the US / UK of course. Will they come? Are they Saudis? To the first: I dunno. To the second: No. There are Saudis who graduated from the petroleum university, KFUPM (King Fahd University of Petroleum & Mining) and seem to be unable to do anything. There are grads who seem "qualified" to supervise - i.e. they get the basics and know the recipe. But hardcore technicals from KFUPM, I would say no. I knew one guy who was a Prof there 15+ yrs and took a job at Aramco - he turned out to be a dud and, when he realized he was waaaay behind the curve technically, he started wearing his thobe and sucking up to the Saudi power structure in the engineering dept we worked for. After about a year, he had made unit supervisor and was in-line for a division-head position.
The tech spots are the rub - and they won't fill them internally. Who will agree to come? Chinese and Russians, probably - Aramco's new-found buddies. Qualified, only maybe.
I think they will stagnate and suffer falling production from fewer upgrades, sloppy maintenance, and general malaise typical of Saudi society. The Stratfor piece hit it spot-on, IMO, so I don't want to repeat everything here. This won't make the Princes fall by itself, IMO.
The only reassurance that foreigners should derive from Saudi claims of action against the militants terrorists is the occurrence of even more mayhem.
The surge in terror attacks in the Kingdom has rattled the nearly nine million expatriates in the country.
Three words in the above sentence say it all:
"Nine million expatriates" signifies a number so large where just the time required to induct that many immigrants alone represents sufficient duration for Saudi Arabia to have trained up a substantial number of their own engineers.
That they have not made it a crucial national priority epitomizes all that is wrong with the House of Saud and why they've essentially abdicated their privilege to make any claim upon what has (for right or wrong) become a vital natural resource to the world.
Similarly, with their bilious and violent doctrine, the Wahhabists have equally renounced their own inheritance of the Arabian oil fields. Such wealth in their febrile hands instantly would be turned against the bulk of humanity with unimaginable brutality.
If the royals cannot bring their own house to order, it must needs be stripped from them before they allow it to dissolve into chaos for all. That they have squandered the future of their nation's people can only amount to a crime against Saudi Arabian humanity. That their clerical body has done the exact same with the souls they are ostensibly dedicated to shepherding only amounts to a crime of similar proportion.
I think we can safely "reassure" them that the attacks will continue, and even escalate.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/13/2004 16:22 Comments ||
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#7
From the Strafor article:
Instead, at security briefings in the U.S. Embassy, government officials are simply warning the expatriates that they "should get the [expletive deleted] out of here."
Isn't it slightly hypocritical (no matter how realistic) for America's government to permit us to remain so dependent on Saudi oil (and petroleum in general) while, at the same time, telling the expats to give up their good jobs with so few similar positions awaiting them at home?
#8
The tech spots are the rub - and they won't fill them internally. Who will agree to come? Chinese and Russians, probably - Aramco's new-found buddies. Qualified, only maybe.
But most important, they'll work cheap. They'll still be there after the coup. Nayaf will tolerate infidels as long as they aren't Western.
Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Asheikh has called a reported Libyan plot to assassinate Crown Prince Abdullah as âa heinous crime and an act of treason against Islam.â Equating the Soddy princes with Islam itself, eh?
âThe Shariah is against assassination because they are criminal acts of treason. Muslims should condemn and distance themselves from such acts that reflect aggression and injustice,â Okaz Arabic daily quoted him as saying. Ummm... If Islam was a nation, assassination would be its national sport...
"It's like men's lacrosse, but without the rules and the honor stuff ..."
The United States was said to be investigating allegations that the Libyan intelligence service plotted to kill the crown prince. The New York Times reported on Thursday that two individuals involved in the conspiracy and now in custody in the US and the Kingdom provided statements outlining the plot. The participants, Abdul Rahman Alamoudi, an American Muslim leader now in jails in the US and Col. Muhammad Ismael, a Libyan intelligence officer in Saudi custody, have given separate statements to American and Saudi officials about the plot. The mufti said it was the duty of Muslim scholars as well as Muslim and Arab organizations to reject such conspiracies and explain to the public the danger they pose. He said the plotters must be brought to justice. Local newspapers, meanwhile, continued commenting on the plot for the second day running. Okaz, which ran a caricature of the Libyan leader with a poem underneath it saying he was âdraped in shame,â said the conspiracy has become a source of unity and solidarity for the Saudi people. âQaddafi is undermining every Arab effort aimed at strengthening the Arab nationâs unity and has committed all kinds of acts that continuously lead it to the brink of danger. His record overflows with plots,â it said.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:24 ||
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#1
Gee, who in SA is most likely to use "stone killers", and has a real hankerin' to see Abdullah take it in the neck?
Crown Prince Abdullah yesterday vowed that terrorists who killed and maimed people and destroyed property in the Kingdom will not escape justice. That's the F4 key on his speechwriter's word processor...
Addressing a group of university teachers, students, publishers and tribal chiefs and other representatives from different parts of the Kingdom, the crown prince reaffirmed the Kingdomâs determination to hunt down the criminals and uproot terrorism. "Make no mistake: the perpetrators will be brought to justice..."
He said âevil handsâ stood behind individuals who were committing such acts and were working against Islam, according to the Saudi Press Agency. Yadda yadda. It was all original this time last year, maybe...
Staff and students of Umm Al-Qura University, led by Rector Dr. Nasser Abdullah Al-Saleh, denounced terrorist acts and pledged their full support for the authorities. âWhat has happened in the Kingdom is more painful because it was the work of our sons who have been seduced by Satan,â the crown prince said. âGod willing I promise you that those individuals will not escape justice with your help and that of all the people of the Kingdom.â The crown prince called on teachers and students to come forward and publicly speak out against these criminal acts. âAs teachers and students you have a great duty to educate and enlighten people. All of you must work to guide your brothers, whether at home or anywhere else, and lead them to the right path,â he said. Those who remained silent were acting as accomplices âand that must never happen,â he told the audience.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:24 ||
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Terrorists Will Be Brought to Justice, Says Abdullah
If they are serious about convincing anyone, they can start by prosecuting Prince Turki al-Faisal.
Turki's link to one of al-Qaeda's top money- launderers, Mohammed Zouaydi, who lived in Saudi Arabia from 1996 to 2001, is also exposed. Zouaydi acted as the accountant for the Faisal branch of the Saudi royal family that includes Turki. Zouaydi, who is now in jail in Spain, is also accused of being al-Qaeda's top European financier. He distributed more than $1 million to al- Qaeda units, including the Hamburg cell of Mohammed Atta which plotted the World Trade Centre attack.
Finally the lawsuit alleges that Turki was 'instrumental' in setting up a meeting between bin Laden and senior Iraqi intelligence agent Faruq al-Hijazi in December 1998. At that meeting it is alleged that bin Laden agreed to avenge recent American bombings of Iraqi targets and in return Iraq offered him a safe haven and gave him blank Yemeni passports.
U.S. and Saudi authorities were searching Sunday for a missing American who al Qaeda militants claim to have kidnapped after killing another U.S. citizen in Riyadh. U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said he had no details about the online claim from a group called Al Falluja Squadron, which identified the man. The department said it learned of the missing man Saturday around 1 p.m. ET when the family contacted the embassy. The missing man was identified as Paul M. Johnson Jr. by his son, Paul Johnson III, of Port Saint Joe, Florida.
Johnson told CNN affiliate WESH-TV that his father was the man pictured on an jihadist Web site and that his father had worked in the Middle East since 1982. He also said neither the State Department nor Lockheed Martin, the missing man's employer, had contacted him about the disappearance. "I'm waiting on the State Department to give me an answer [and] his company," Johnson said. "You know, this should not have happened. This could have been very preventable."
The man was reported missing shortly after gunmen killed Kenneth Scroggs, an American working for a British-Saudi company, at his home in Riyadh's upscale Malaz neighborhood. A statement on the Web site identified the man it said it had kidnapped, posting a driver's license, passport, business card and other documents and described him as a system engineering "specialist" for the Apache AH-64 helicopter. "We have our legal right to treat them [hostages] the same way they treat our people," the statement said. "We will publish more details about the man kidnapped and explain the mujahedeen's demands." The group added, "We will continue this determination in the same road toward Jihad and for supporting our brothers in Palestine, Iraq, Cuba and everywhere."
#1
The Sods might be hunting, but not very hard. Besides which, when caught and cornered, Soddie terrorist prey always seems able to give the "hunters" the slip. The hunters are both incompetent and corrupt.
Posted by: Mark ||
06/13/2004 18:50 Comments ||
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In yet another chillingly graphic video obtained by the Northeast Intelligence Network, Al Qaeda shows the assassination of another American citizen at the hands of Islamic militants. The video, released earlier this afternoon, purports to be from Al Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula, the division of Al Qaeda headed by Abu Hagar Al Moqrin. According to a notice on the website announcing the release of the video, the video shows "the murder of the American Jew, Robert Jacob, who was an employee Vinnell spy agency."
The video begins with images of injured and dead Arab children. The scene then changes and shows two men yelling in Arabic, as they chase a man. The man can be heard begging for his life in English in what sounds like an American accent. The victim falls to the ground inside a garage as two men holding guns run towards him, and gun him down. They can then be seen rifling through his pockets. Jacob was confirmed dead under the identical circumstances earlier this week. No further confirmation as to the vericity of the video is available at this time.
From another article: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1542035,00.html
The tape, seen on the website, then shows the two men rush to the body. One appears to be slitting the victim's throat.
The killing takes place in the covered yard of a residential building where a 4x4 vehicle is parked in a garage space...The video described the victim as "American Jew Robert Jacob, who worked for the spy group Vinnell".
Posted by: rex ||
06/13/2004 16:12 Comments ||
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Oh, really? Golly. I wonder why nobody here guessed that...
Officials investigating the devastating North Korean train explosion in April believe the blast was an assassination attempt on the countryâs leader, Kim Jong-il. At the time, the secretive state described the explosion in the border town of Ryongchon as an accident. Electric cables were believed to have ignited a cargo of explosive chemicals and oil. The blast killed more than 160 people and injured 1300. Now, officials close to the investigation believe a mobile phone was used to detonate the trainâs deadly cargo of ammonium nitrate and fuel. The remains of a mobile handset, with adhesive tape attached, have been found at the scene of the blast. Hours before the train exploded, Mr Kim had passed through the town by train on his way back from China. "They still donât know who planted the explosives, if indeed there were any," one official said. "Itâs very difficult to find any sign, as they would have used only a small amount to detonate a huge amount of ammonium nitrate." The official said it was not certain yet that the blast was an assassination attempt, but the theory had become the main thrust of the inquiry.
Ummm... Anybody come up with another reason to intentionally blow up a train?
"A short-circuit might have been responsible, but evidence they [investigators] have is quite convincing that it was not." Mr Kimâs itinerary was frequently altered for security reasons, the official said, which probably saved his life. The owner of the mobile phone found at the scene had been traced and questioned, he said.
Wonder if anybody's claimed the remains yet?
It would not have been the first assassination attempt against Mr Kim, who succeeded his father Kim Il-sung as leader in 1994. At the end of the 1990s, a plan hatched by a number of army generals was uncovered, and the conspirators arrested. After they were interrogated, the generals were executed in Pyongyangâs 150,000-capacity May Day Stadium. Petrol was poured over them and set alight, burning them alive. In light of the Ryongchon evidence, Pyongyang has banned North Koreans from using mobile phones. The decision, made a fortnight ago, dealt a severe blow to the state-owned mobile phone operator, which had just started to make a profit. EMPHASIS ADDED
Banning the use of all mobile phones? What a great way to choke off your entire countryâs productivity! Thatâs sort of like how the Soviet Unionâs massive bureaucracy was terrified of Xerox copiers. I do not envy that chap who is being interrogated about his cell phone.
#5
Barbara, many emerging economies no longer begin with copper wire and migrate directly to cellular communications. The expense of planting poles and stringing cable far outweighs the cost of installing cell systems. As noted in the article, North Korea's mobile service provider was just begining to hit payback, so there is obviously a market ... which Kim has just strangled in the cradle. Add another 1,000 people to the starvation obituaries come wintertime.
#7
The guys with the cell phones won't be the ones working in the fields or building Socialism in One Country in the factories. I'd say to look among the senior officers. Prob'ly time for a good, old-fashioned blood purge.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 22:10 Comments ||
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#8
Lots of wierd shit on this one. Mobile fone as detonator most likely means an on-scene operator to trigger the blast.
So why wait five hours if Kimmie was the target?
And, just for the record, it's far more likely that rocket propellant was the fuel for the major blast. Ammonium Nitrate works best as a FAE, not packed densely in powder cars.
Which brings up the question: Who would like to see the Norks stop selling missiles to Syria?
#9
I'd say to look among the senior officers. Prob'ly time for a good, old-fashioned blood purge
One of the initial BBC reports mentioned one rumor that the blast may have been propogated by NK military leadership, who were angered that "reforms were taking place". I couldn't find that piece two days later, and it wasn't mentioned in later reports. No personal comment as to credibility.
#10
Frank-
In a country like Nork, only the elite would have cellphones..elites like Generals, commissars, ministers...all the people most likely to want Odashee Kim out of the way.
Let 'em ban the cell phones. As Mister Floyd used to say, just another brick in the wall....
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
06/13/2004 22:41 Comments ||
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#11
I'm skeptical of this.
Let me get this straight: the bomb blasted out a massive crater hundreds of meters across, but they think they've found the detonator intact?
Does that sound fishy to anyone else?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
06/13/2004 22:54 Comments ||
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#12
Wait a minute -- somebody tried to take out L'il Kim?
Posted by: Infidel Bob ||
06/13/2004 22:58 Comments ||
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#13
Some people think so, Bob.
With this latest story, though, I'm beginning to wonder if it was an accident of some kind, and some people (who, I don't know) have decided to use the accident to sow as much Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt as possible.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
06/13/2004 23:24 Comments ||
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#14
Let me get this straight: the bomb blasted out a massive crater hundreds of meters across, but they think they've found the detonator intact? Does that sound fishy to anyone else?
Not at all. Remember how they found part of the solid state detonator PCB from the Lockerbie atrocity? A relatively light object like a cell phone's CPU chip would have been lifted quite clear of the main conflagration by the blast's shock wave. Additionally, the lead frame of a cell phone's integrated circuitry would have been rather easy to locate using a conventional metal detector.
If you examine the photo distributed by Chosun Ilbo's online edition, the crater is nowhere near the size of a few football fields (i.e., "100s of meters"). The only surprise is that North Korea had sufficient forensic talent onboard to have located and analysed the evidence.
#15
Kim had just met with the Chinese leadership. Perhaps the meeting didn't go well, and the Chinese were trying to send Kim a message.
Posted by: A Jackson ||
06/13/2004 23:27 Comments ||
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#16
Kim had just met with the Chinese leadership. Perhaps the meeting didn't go well, and the Chinese were trying to send Kim a message.
Some speculations had his train accompanied by a large shipment of aviation fuel as a Chinese gift to Kim. Maybe China was just trying to "pack his bags" for him.
An overseas terrorist cell in Australia is believed to have planned a potentially devastating attack on the Jewish communityâs main building in Melbourne. The plot, partly revealed in telephone intercepts, was interpreted as preparations for an attack on the Beth Weizmann Community Centre in Caulfield. The centre houses several Jewish organisations and is the nerve centre for Jewish political, charitable and administration activities. The plot was uncovered in 2002 and was separate from the attacks planned by the Perth man, Jack Roche, who has been jailed for conspiring with al-Qaeda to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra.
Roche revealed during his trial last month that the kidnapping for ransom or the assassination of Melbourne mining magnate Joseph Gutnick had also been part of the plan by al-Qaeda to attack Jewish and Israeli interests and individuals in Australia. According to the Attorney-Generalâs office, the Australian Jewish community has been the subject of many threats over the years, some of them at a "heightened level" and some "routine." Members of the Jewish community said they were terrified by the 2002 plot and, fearing heavy loss of life, immediately upgraded security. "The whole Jewish community was alerted," said one community leader. Stephen Rothman, QC, president of the NSW Jewish Community Council, told The Age last year that the community had information that al-Qaeda planned attacks on Sydney and Melbourne buildings, but he refused to name them. He said at the time: "Those of us responsible for security are extremely nervous . . . the loss of life would have been significant."
Several prominent members of the Jewish community, who asked not to be named, have now confirmed to The Age that the Weizmann Centre was a target. A community security source said the information from police had been interpreted to mean attacks were planned against Jewish targets across the country and that the headquarters of Sydneyâs Jewish community, the Jewish War Memorial Building in Darlinghurst, was also a target. Mr Rothman last week again declined to name the targeted buildings but said that terrorist cells in Australia had targeted Jewish institutions at least twice, in 2003 and 2002. "The information we have received is from law enforcement agencies and it is very serious," Mr Rothman said. "We have been told regardless of the Roche case, that there have been and are existing terrorist threats, one of the targets for which we suspect is the Jewish community and its institutions." Mr Rothman understood members of the cell had not been arrested. Their plans were fairly well advanced and authorities had intercepts of their telephone calls.
Another Melbourne Jewish leader said the information had come from al-Qaeda detainees, possibly from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where Australians David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib are held. The information had been corroborated elsewhere, he said. Others in the community dismissed the Guantanamo Bay link, saying the community itself had came up with the names of the buildings as the targets when the information was analysed. "It was obvious," said one security expert who works for the Jewish community. The Roche trial revealed the extent to which al-Qaedaâs top commanders in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Jemaah Islamiahâs Hambali - who masterminded the Bali bombing - had been involved in sending Roche for explosives training and in giving him orders to attack American and Israeli interests.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 1:40:58 PM ||
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With his prosthetic hook, one-eyed scowl and vitriolic sermons, Abu Hamza al-Masri, the prayer leader at Londonâs Finsbury Park mosque, became the European poster boy for international jihad and the favorite boogeyman of Britainâs tabloids. Last month, while British authorities were scratching their heads trying to find some legal means of getting rid of the troublesome imam, the U.S. Justice Department solved their problem with an extradition request. Abu Hamza, as he is known to his followers, has never set foot in the U.S., but he has been charged by the Justice Department with trying to set up a terrorist training base in Oregon, abetting a 1998 hostage-taking in Yemen that resulted in the deaths of three Britons and an Australian, and sending one of his acolytes for Al Qaeda training in Afghanistan. U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft personally announced the indictment at a news conference in New York that featured a poster of the Egyptian-born cleric gesturing with his prosthesis. The case will be the first test of a new fast-track extradition treaty between Britain and the United States.
The case also underscores the difficulties that Britain and other European countries with large Muslim minorities face as they try to cope with radical or fundamentalist preachers who hold great sway over legions of alienated young Muslim men, but whose messages often run counter to the basic values of liberal, Western democracies. After spurning Osama bin Ladenâs recent offer of a truce, European governments have been struggling to find a balance between the need to uproot potential terrorist threats and uphold the principles of free speech and religious tolerance. They want to crack down on the preachers without alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are law-abiding.
So toss the preachers, keep the law-abiding Muslims. What's so complicated about that?
Abu Hamza, who sustained his injuries fighting in Afghanistan in the 1980s, has been an irritant to British authorities since the late 1990s, but he did not attract widespread notoriety until the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks when he lionized bin Laden and shrugged off the attacks as a "Jewish conspiracy." After it came to light that French-born Moroccan Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged "20th hijacker," and convicted shoe bomber Richard Reid were among the faithful who attended Abu Hamzaâs sermons at the Finsbury Park mosque, authorities put him under close surveillance. Last year, police padlocked the mosque, and the government began procedures to strip the preacher of his British citizenship, a tactic that alarmed some human-rights activists. "You donât play around with peopleâs citizenship," said Michel Tubiana, a Paris-based human-rights lawyer. "If a person does something wrong, you judge him and you punish him, but you donât take away his nationality."
You don't play around with the lives of millions of your citizens, either, jughead...
After the U.S. indictment was announced, the British government acknowledged that its efforts to bring criminal charges against Abu Hamza were thwarted by the inadmissibility of phone-tap evidence in Britain.
Maybe they need to work on that. There's safeguarding the rights of citizens, and there's committing mass suicide.
Another frustration for the British government is Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed, who lauds the Sept. 11 hijackers as "the magnificent 19" and heads a group called Al-Mohajeroun that calls on British Muslims to expand the boundaries of jihad. "The battlefield must not have any borders or nationality," said a recent news release from the group. Law-enforcement officials say the Syrian-born Mohammed generally stops short of pronouncements that would be criminal violations in Britain, but he has been under closer scrutiny for the past year after two young Britons who attended his lectures were involved in a suicide attack in Tel Aviv that killed three Israelis.
Yeah. I'll bet that lit up the guys at Scotland Yard...
One remedy under consideration by the government is a law that would require all Muslim preachers to pass an English-language and culture test. The idea was put forth by Nizar Ahmed, one of the few Muslim members of the House of Lords. It prompted Mohammedâs organization to accuse Ahmed of apostasy, a transgression punishable by death, according to Koranic law.
There don't appear to be any laws against death threats in Britain, either...
France, enmeshed in a cultural war over a new law that prohibits Muslim head scarves in public schools, has tried to gain a measure of control over what is said inside the countryâs mosques by creating the French Council of the Muslim Faith as a quasi-official regulatory body. To demonstrate the governmentâs resolve, new Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin recently ordered the expulsion of two controversial imams. Midhat Guler, a Turkish national accused of leading an extremist movement "that preaches the use of terrorism and violence," was deported, as was Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian-born prayer leader and father of 16 who asserts that the Koran permitted men to beat unfaithful wives. But a French court last month ruled that the expulsion of Bouziane was illegal, and to the embarrassment of the government, he is back in France. Tubiana, the human-rights lawyer, said both preachers may have violated French law by inciting violence but that de Villepin was wrong in trying to deport them. He drew a parallel to the historic 1905 reforms that established the basis of French secularism. "This resulted in a lot of Catholic priests calling for the overthrow of the republic. At the time, it was a real political struggle, and it was only resolved by prosecuting these priests in the courts," he said.
But they were native-born citizens...
Spain, still reeling from the train bombings that left 191 dead in Madrid three months ago, has adopted an approach similar to Franceâs. Last month, new Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso announced reforms that give the government control over the funding of mosques and allow it to monitor the content of sermons. Mansur Escudero, president of Spainâs Islamic Council, called the measures an attack on religious freedom, but Mustafa el-Mrabet, head of the countryâs Moroccan Immigrant Workers Association, endorsed the idea, saying government funding would loosen the grip of Saudi-sponsored imams whose Wahhabist vision of Islam is at odds with Western norms.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 1:55:13 PM ||
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"If a person does something wrong, you judge him and you punish him, but you donât take away his nationality."
Horsesh!t. When someone is openly advocating violent overthrow of their host nation, you most definitely strip them of their citizenship, nationality, clothes for a deep cavity search ... whatever.
US MILITARY officials are holding a bodyguard of al-Qaeda terror leader Osama bin Laden at the naval base prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the Washington Post reported today. Citing Defence Department memos and sources familiar with base captives, the newspaper said the bodyguard is Moroccan Abdallah Tabarak. It said Tabarak enabled bin Laden to escape from the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 by making calls on his leaderâs personal satellite telephone.
That was after the blabs to the press that we were tracking his satphone. Making political points was much more important than protecting sources and methods.
The information is contained in memos documenting meetings between military personnel and inspectors from the International Committee of the Red Thingy Cross. ICRTC officials, who keep their prison reports confidential, were not allowed to interview Tabarak as recently as February, the Post said. According to the memos, the ICRTC officials expressed concern that US interrogators were keeping detainees in isolation holds for up to a month for refusing to give information; were worried that lengthy interrogation sessions were having a "cumulative effect" on the mental health of the captives; and said the use of open-air cages instead of closed cells constituted inhumane treatment under the international laws of war.
They're right, of course. Better to have just shot him on the spot, like the Geneva Conventions call for...
The memos say the meetings were cordial, even though an October 9, 2003 memo states that "there was no improvement in any of the four major areas of concern," the Post said. According to the documents, new arrivals thought they were going to be executed because they were clothed in reddish full-body jumpsuits, a colour reserved for condemned men in the Arab world. Brightly coloured jumpsuits are commonly used by prisoners in US custody to make them easily identifiable, especially if they escape.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 1:44:50 PM ||
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...lengthy interrogation sessions were having a "cumulative effect" on the mental health of the captives
Well, one can hope I guess. I'd prefer a Colt .45's more rapid effect on terrorist's mental health, but progress is progress.
P.S. Osama died at Tora Bora. Don't tell the Euroweenies though. They'll say it's time for us to stop killing those who have vowed to kill us.
From Guardian Unlimited
The United States government, in conjunction with key allies, is running an âinvisibleâ network of prisons and detention centres into which thousands of suspects have disappeared without trace since the âwar on terrorâ began. In the past three years, thousands of alleged militants have been transferred around the world by American, Arab and Far Eastern security services, often in secret operations that by-pass extradition laws. The astonishing traffic has seen many, including British citizens, sent from the West to countries where they can be tortured to extract information. Anything learnt is passed on to the US and, in some cases, reaches British intelligence. ...
The practice of ârenditionsâ - when suspects are handed directly into the custody of another state without due process - has sparked particular anger. At least 70 such transfers have occurred, according to CIA sources. Many involve men who have been freed by the courts and are thus legally innocent. Renditions are often used when American interrogators believe that harsh treatment - banned in their own country - would produce results.
The Observer has obtained details of two incidents in which men have been detained by the US despite being found innocent by courts in their own country. In one, a British businessman called Wahab al-Rami, an Iraqi living in the UK and a Palestinian seeking asylum were arrested by US and local officers in Gambia in November 2002 as they stepped off a flight from London. Their seizure, which followed a tip-off from the UK security services - came just days after they had been arrested by British police on suspicion of terrorism and then freed by a British court. Two were transported from Gambia to Guantanamo Bay - where they remain today - without any legal process.
In the other incident, two Turks, a Saudi, a Kenyan and a Sudanese man were arrested in Malawi in June 2003 on suspicion of funding terrorist networks. Though freed by local courts, the men were handed over to the CIA and held for several months. Campaigners say these incidents are âthe tip of an icebergâ. Few escape the ghost network of detention facilities, which range from massive prison camps such as that at Guantanamo Bay to naval vessels in the Indian Ocean, so accounts of life inside the new gulag are rare. ....
The ghost prison network stretches around the globe. The biggest American-run facilities are at the Bagram airbase, north of Kabul in Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, where around 400 men are held, and in Iraq, where tens of thousands of detainees are held. Saddam Hussein and dozens of top Baath party officials are held in a prison at Baghdad airport.
However, Washington is relying heavily on allies. In Morocco, scores of detainees once held by the Americans are believed to be held at the al-Tamara interrogation centre sited in a forest five miles outside the capital, Rabat. Many of the detainees were originally captured by the Pakistani authorities, who passed them on to the Americans. ....
In Syria, detainees sent by Washington are held at âthe Palestine wingâ of the main intelligence headquarters and a series of jails in Damascus and other cities. Egypt has also received a steady flow of militants from American installations. Many other militants have been sent to Egypt by other countries through transfers assisted by the Americans, often using planes run by the CIA. In Cairo, prisoners are kept in the interrogation centre in the general intelligence directorate in Lazoughli and in Mulhaq al-Mazra prison, according to Montasser al-Zayat, an Islamist lawyer in Cairo and former spokesman for outlawed militant groups.
Terrorists have also been sent to facilities in Baku, Azerbaijan, and to unidentified locations in Thailand. Scores more are thought to be at a US airbase in the Gulf state of Qatar, and a large number are believed to have been sent to Saudi Arabia, where CIA agents are allowed to sit in on some of the interrogations. Elsewhere, security officials merely provide the Americans with summaries. ....
The exact number of prisoners held by the Americans or their allies is unknown, but US officials claim that more than 3,000 al-Qaeda militants have been arrested since 11 September. Only around 350 are held in Guantanamo Bay. Very few have been released. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
06/13/2004 12:50:50 PM ||
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I meant to put this on page 1.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
06/13/2004 12:51 Comments ||
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#2
Al Guardian, in its classic fuck-America style, implies much that the facts do not bear out. Example: Detainees sent to Syria. Syria cannot be called a key ally - by any stretch of imagination. How these people are treated, where detained, etc. is certainly not under the control of the US and if, as implied, these "have disappeared without trace" - precisely what does the US have to do with it? AlG should bash the Syrians (and all other Arab regimes, in fact) for the total lack of press freedoms and accuracy.
Pfeh. In many ways this is a pure hit piece.
If they stuck to the simple facts, eliminated the obvious crap and spin and vitriol, they might have some credibility. Including such tripe as Syria and implying the US is somehow culpable for how Syria handles terrorists is typical Al Guardian Bullshit. Can you say Agenda? How, pray-tell, can anyone believe any of the rest after finding such obvious insanity? *flush*
#3
The famous Black Helicopter Detachment is assigned to the invisible prison located next to the Tri-Lateral Commission Headquarters at an undisclosed location. Coincidently (?) this is the same undisclosed location where CHAINY has been hiding. I swear, mucky told me all of this.
#4
Sounds like someone made some good decisions on how to treat the many piles of crap that we are picking up in the WOT. I wonder how I can volunteer to fly the black helocopters to the secret prisons? Wait they are flying over head now to pick me up.....See you L8tr.
#6
"according to CIA sources"
"and a large number are believed to have been sent to Saudi Arabia, where CIA agents are allowed to sit in on some of the interrogations."
Written in a pub in Soho.
#7
you know i just felt a tear start...so what..they are not american and entitled to any protection of the constitution...and plus..this is a fact totally ignored by the media and our lovely sen. biden - al queda (to the best of my knowledge) has never signed the geneva convention....so how does it apply? it does not...
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 16:20 Comments ||
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#8
"Allahu Akbar! The foolish infidels have detained me next to the alien bodies from Roswell! I shall be the most famous jihadi of them all. Hey wait-- this one looks Jewish."
Posted by: Matt ||
06/13/2004 17:06 Comments ||
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#9
Jeepers, this is awful! I bet they didn't even read them their Miranda Rights!
#10
The US has been using GITMO as a shiny object to focus all scrutiny on, and it's worked marvelously. Right after the ball got rolling, some CIA agent let slip that one of the other prisons is knicknamed "The Hotel California", not because of its location, but through some cryptic and icky references to the lyrics of that song.
A "friend" speculated that they should have a "Rat" program. A "Stainless Steel Rat" is loaded with internal tracking devices. A "Cannibal Rat" has been reprogrammed to kill his buddies when he gets back home--seek and destroy. A "Blam Rat" is filled with very advanced explosives and doesn't know it--lethal to anyone within 30 feet when he is detonated. He suggested another half dozen "Rat" types.
So let me pose a question to the assembled: is the US using its really horrific X-Files tech on these bad boys? Psychotropic drugs, chip implants, brainwashing, etc. And if not, then *why* not?
Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols may have been spared the death penalty for a second time because a jailhouse conversion to Christianity gained him sympathy from the jury, lawyers in the case said Saturday. The state prosecution, staged in an attempt to secure the death penalty at a cost expected to soar to $10 million, ended with the same sentence Nichols received in federal court six years ago: life. Juror Daniel Cochran said as many as eight of the 12 jurors agreed to impose a death sentence, but declined to disclose further details of their deliberations."We all agreed that what went on in the jury room would stay in the jury room," he said.
More at the link.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/13/2004 12:04:09 AM ||
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ultimately, however, death will be imposed, by an authority higher than us. He'll have a lot to answer to. I still wouldn't mind a "Dahmer" incident though....
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 0:09 Comments ||
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#2
Nichols possibly repentant? Now how about OBL(If he still lives), Saddam, Sadr, Zawhari(sp?), Yasser, Zahar, etc. repent? Things less probable have happened before.
#3
The state prosecution, staged in an attempt to secure the death penalty at a cost expected to soar to $10 million, ended with the same sentence Nichols received in federal court six years ago: life.
Which is a hell of a lot more than 161 (one hundred and sixty-one, count them) other people got from Nichols. I hope he is forced to request solitary confinement due to his unforeseen "popularity."
#4
As much as I would think this mass murderer deserved a state-given death, I have to grit my teeth and say "Good" to the decision of the court. And that goes to Osama as well. My hope there is that he resists violently... (for which I will ask forgiveness and try to change)
Unlike Kerry, I am not going to be a hypocrit when it comes to Church doctrine. Death judgement of a bound man belongs in God's hands, not in man's imperfect ones.
#5
OldSpook, Nichols voluntarily bound his own hands when he abetted McVeigh in fabricating the truck bomb. No one but himself brought this upon his head and it was entirely by his choice alone. Those who live by the maliciously wielded sword should have every chance to greet it at the end.
#6
True enough about Nichols binding his own hands. But if he has genuinely repented...
Then there is the whole problem of a government killing an unarmed helpless person in its custody. From a CATHOLIC (not a societal) point of view, its wrong - the government and humans in it make too many errors. The risk of even one innocent human life is too large a price to pay in Church doctrine - its also why we oppose abortion, unjust wars, etc.
re: wars. I am thankful that the opposition to the US efforts in Iraq are *not* official policy - there was not enough evidence to make a ruling on the Iraq war, and my belief is that over time, the Church will come to realizes that it was and is a just war, however imperfectly it might be waged at times. [it saves me from a very serious and hard look at my faith and what I believe in this world].
As for nichols and the death penalty - I'm glad the jury saw fit to not to decide kill him. It saved me a ahrd time with my CHurch as well - not enough to separate me from the Church, but cerainly uncomfortable with my undeniable initial internal satisfaction of that bastard" getting his due, paid in kind". It would have been very hard to honestly repent and get myself back into communion with the Church. Unlike that hypocrit Kerry, I'd have had to deny myself Eucharist until I had that settled between me and God.
Life without parole. Seems fair in the absence of a death penalty. Only problem is that lawyers have taken restitution out of it for a large part.
Hard labor should still be part of the sentence. Making gravel for concrete to rebuild that which he helped destroy. Making money and sending it all, no matter how small to the families of his victims.
There should be restitution, no matter how small, and it should take 100% of Nichol's time and energy to provide it. No slack, just work, eat, sleep, and more work with the fruits of his labor returned to his victims. He should have no joy for the rest of his life, nor any rest other that that which is needed to keep him alive and healthy enough to work.
#8
Agree with Frank. Who cares if they kill him or not. He'll never get out and prison will be hell on earth fro him anyway. Sure, a bullet is cheaper, but I like the idea of keeping him around so he can help fill in the details of what REALLY happened later on down the road. History will want to record it and the American people deserve to know.
#9
If he were repentant and truly remorseful for what he had done, don't you think he would have 1.pleaded guilty and 2.described, in detail, how the plans were hatched, who was involved and exactly what happened? If he is truly answering to his maker and not simply engaging in legal strategy, he should have declared what he believes in his heart -- that he is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.
#10
that's true PlanetDan - very true. But why not give him as much time as possible to get to that point? Once he's dead...the information dies with him. Nothing lost by waiting and hoping that he'll give it up one day...or that we'll have non-torture methods of sucking it out his brain.
#11
There should be restitution, no matter how small, and it should take 100% of Nichol's time and energy to provide it. No slack, just work, eat, sleep, and more work with the fruits of his labor returned to his victims. He should have no joy for the rest of his life, nor any rest other that that which is needed to keep him alive and healthy enough to work.
#12
As a Catholic as well, OldSPook, I have no issues with the death penalty. Name one innocent man put to death, especially since the advent of DNA testing. Catholic catechism does not preclude a society from putting to death those elements that would destroy innocent life. Bound and harmless? Apparently you don't remember California's former Chief Justice Rose Bird who's court overturned ALL death penalty sentences based on ideology. Who can say some of those aren't already scheduled for parole under a repeated judicial disaster?
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 11:04 Comments ||
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#13
First and foremost, OldSpook, your forthrightness is both deeply appreciated and also quite refreshing at this board. You took the time to consciously spell out a large part of the reasoning that surrounds your own decision, something not everyone is either willing or (sometimes) even capable of doing here abouts.
While I do not concur with some of what you put forth, I cannot dispute your right to such an opinion, especially when it is obvious that you have given it so much honorable thought.
Instead, I can only point to what has been said so well here and by others:
#9 If he were repentant and truly remorseful for what he had done, don't you think he would have 1.pleaded guilty and 2.described, in detail, how the plans were hatched, who was involved and exactly what happened? If he is truly answering to his maker and not simply engaging in legal strategy, he should have declared what he believes in his heart -- that he is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.
PlanetDan, gets to the core of why I find Nichols' position wanting. Any measure of Nichols' true faith is between him and his God, but it is up to us, we the living, to estimate the worth of his ostensible conversion.
The only reason Nichols is "bound and harmless" is because there was a body of valid evidence pointing directly to his complicity in America's worst domestic terror attack. Nichols' participation in that atrocity was voluntary and without coercion of any sort. Our nation has not bound him and neither was he helpless, save due to his willing participation in an monstrous crime against humanity. Through such intentional mass murder Nichols rendered himself vulnerable to whatever the law rightfully may impose upon him.
I am obliged to paraphrase Dennis Miller:
"No one ever finds Christ on prom night. Too often it seems that people find Jesus only after they have they have painted themselves into a moral and ethical corner and made a wreck of their own life and, too often, that of many others around them."
While anyone is entitled to obtain faith at any moment of their lives, Nichols' jailhouse conversion smacks of less-than-sincere piety in light of his incomplete confession. Were he to properly follow the Golden Rule, PlanetDan's point would have been unnecessary.
OldSpook, I will repeat how refreshing your candor is and also readily agree how Nichols should enjoy aught but hard labor for his remaining days on earth. Such would only be fitting at the very least. Even though we disagree, I can only admire the openness and courage of your convictions.
That's pretty self-evident Zenster. It's kind of like saying no one becomes interested in AA during their first bender.
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 13:09 Comments ||
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Nichols should burn regardless of his conversion and "repentance." He didn't apologize, he didn't say he's sorry; all he said was that now he's Xtian and he's sure to go to heaven.
It's also not assured that he was spared due to his conversion, but if he was--I'm sorry, but then irrational Xtian sentimentality cost us the last hope for real justice against Nichols.
p.s. just to get my position straight--I think he should have burned gladly if he was sincerely repentant.
#16
Nichols better watch his six and/or be put up separately in prison, or someone will put a shiv into him and that will be the end of that issue.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 14:01 Comments ||
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#17
That's pretty self-evident Zenster. It's kind of like saying no one becomes interested in AA during their first bender.
I find it rather conspicuous that so many "born again" people I've met extoll Christ's virtues yet somehow never connected with them in the midst of beauty and plenty. Instead, they could only manage to see Jesus' worth once they destroyed themselves and the lives of so many others.
To ignore the miraculously beneficent universe we live in only to piss upon it until your life is such a trainwreck that you must surrender up your soul to external hands strikes me as less than inspired. While Christ may have walked amongst the outcasts, far too many people seem to vigorously cast themselves down before finally finding Jesus. That's not much of a recommendation nor does it summon up a lot of pity within me.
The spectacle of Nichols kissing the hem of Christ's robe while still presenting his unrepetent posterior for the devil's delight doesn't cut any ice with me.
#18
Kinda missing the message if you ask me. The chairs at AA are full of alcoholics and the churches are full of self-professed sinners - people seeking grace to save them.
I guess your point is why Christ said it was harder for the rich man to find grace than the poor man. Somehow we've twisted the message of Christianity to the point where Christians are supposed to be the models of piety, rather than self-professed sinners seeking assistance. But..isn't that's like saying that the chairs at AA should be full of people rarely tempted by a drink.
We digress.
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 14:39 Comments ||
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#19
But...that being said, I conceed your point that if McVeigh doesn't truly confess - his conversion is a meaningless sham.
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 14:45 Comments ||
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#20
But...that being said, I conceed your point that if McVeigh doesn't truly confess - his conversion is a meaningless sham.
So why should he granted the least forgiveness, not just by his victims, but by even by Christ? There is no sincerity in such obvious self-serving and pious posturing. I think therien said it best by noting how Nichols should have offered himself up for execution as the only appropriate atonement for his crimes. I surely would have and it is naught but cowardice that Nichols does not, just as with how he withholds the details surrounding his complicity.
I still find it less than impressive that so many people are unable to find inspiration save at the end of a spiritual gun. It does not say a lot about their sort of faith and consecration of spirit. Their own or even that which may be eternal.
B, your own statements about "self-professed sinners" comes perilously close to the notion of original sin. It is an idea I find revolting in the extreme. I realize that this is neither the appropriate time nor place to debate about it, but I am still compelled to clarify.
I will freely grant that Christ's own words about the difficulty a rich man might have in finding grace are absolutely fitting. That so many squander their wealth in profligate fashion before taking the time to absorb what wisdom there is in Christ's teachings constitutes a searing indictment of their reasons for adopting religion.
#21
I'll join the others in voicing my respect for OldSpook's position. I especially salute him as a fellow pro-lifer dedicated to preserving innocent human life.
HOWEVER, McVeigh was, to the best of the court's ability, determined to be GUILTY of MURDER. If he was innocent, then holding him in prison is an outrage that shouldn't stand.
If somebody burned my house down, do they recompense me based on the value of the house BEFORE it burned down, or its value AFTER it burned down? Before, of course. Yet, murder is the only crime where the value of that which is taken is computed on the value AFTER the life was taken. How valuable were the 161 people who died? Zip, as far as the anti-death-penalty people are concerned, NOW that they are dead.
McVeigh can now strut about, declaring, quite justly, that he is worth more than 161 people. If the anti-death-penalty people vigorously deny that, then why are they not acting as if the opposite is true?
#22
Zen, not really familiar with concepts of original sin - so afraid I'll have to pass anyway. I agree with much of what you say, though. But as for McVeigh, if he can truly find it, better late than never, if you ask me. If he can find it, surely there's some hope for me :-)
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 15:40 Comments ||
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#23
How valuable were the 161 people who died? Zip, as far as the anti-death-penalty people are concerned, NOW that they are dead.
Wow. So the people who died are "recompensated" not by being resurrected and restored their lives, but by removing the lives of the people who killed them?
Let me guess -- if you somebody burned your house down, you would feel recompensated not if you were actually given back the value of your house, but if they burned the arsonist's house down instead?
Which of the two comes closest to someone realizing the value of one's house -- or one's life?
Vengeance might make you feel good ofcourse, but you'd still be homeless. It'd not be recompensation. In the case of murder or rape recompensation is simply not possible.
#24
B, I believe we were discussing Terry Nichols. Timmothy McVeigh is currently maintaining a valiant struggle to remain dead.
Aris, it is not so much a matter of recompense or revenge. By their own acts, some criminals nullify their right to continued existence. The threat they represent to society and the cost of housing them for life at public expense is in no way justified.
Abetting the murder of 161 innocent people in a single vicious crime is one of those acts.
#25
It is generally not a well man that seeks a physician.
Likewise, I had to go through some pretty wrenching self examination before I truly allowed God in to my life. There is not a commandment that I have not violated, excepting how you translate "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
If you treat it literally, then I have violated - in terms of the products of my work (which certainly caused others to die), and also directly with a rifle, and with weapon under my direction during war, and also via an explosive device in a "non-war" combat circumstance.
If you translate that in the original sense of the word, to "murder", then thats the only one that I havent broken.
But be that as it may, I've reached my peace... The great thing about Christianity is that God not only forgives, he completely absolves. God can do the one thing I cannot: forget my sins.
#26
No disrespect EVER meant to OldSpook, I just wanted to convey that there's others who believe AND support the Death Penalty, and the Church isn't calling them out...
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 19:07 Comments ||
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#27
Old Spook, your life of service in the military and elsewhere is in the clear with me. I am just sorry I couldn't be there to help you.
#28
It's amazing how nobody has problems with temporal and causal connections when it comes to lost value of property. compensation there is not a problem. But murder someone, and suddenly, how do people act when it comes to the value of human life? AS IF its nothing. Say all you want about how much you VALUE people, aris, it is what you do in response to when they're gone, AND how they went, that determines their REAL value.
Besides, THAT state of affairs would please you quite well, if you thought it necessary to murder someone, no?
Oh, and the Hebrew is quite exact, despite mistranslations.
#29
I must weigh in and say that while I have no personal desire to see Nichols continue to live, the notion of death being at the hands of humans is too dangerous a position for me to endorse.
Name one innocent man put to death, especially since the advent of DNA testing.
Remember, the Titanic was unsinkable too. I know it's cliche, but one must always remember that no matter how much we feel that we have somehow technically overcome human imperfection, it is usually proven to be arrogant and incorrect.
I hope Nichols suffers hard and long and I hope some good can come from him (information, restitution etc). I also agree that his "conversion" doesn't stand up in light of his "unrepentance" (My Christian theology has always linked the two)
Posted by: gp ||
06/13/2004 19:41 Comments ||
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#30
OldSpook, just a note from a born American to thank you for all the onerous tasks you have performed in our nation's name. You, and all other veterans have my deepest gratitude. May your soul find the lasting peace it so richly deserves.
#31
OldSpook, just a note from a born American to thank you for all the onerous tasks you have performed in our nation's name. You, and all other veterans have my deepest gratitude. May your soul find the lasting peace it so richly deserves
It can't be said often enough and loudly enough.
We are indebted to you for your bravery and your service to our country, and to the cause of freedom. You did the work of the angels, and for that I am grateful.
#32
OS...I agree that "thou shalt not kill" has some translation issues. Look at it this way, you could take it as far as you can't kill to eat meat or even "kill" a blade of wheat! Any way you look at it, we ALL have to kill and consume life (plant or animal) in order to live ....and God watched over many a war and warrior in the Bible after he issued that commandment.
Just like forgive your "debts" really translates into "trespasses" rather than "not necessay to pay me back"....I just think there are some translation issues where you have to fill common sense into the gap. The best you can do is go with what you believe is right.
Zen, right you are.
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 20:17 Comments ||
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#33
Say all you want about how much you VALUE people, aris, it is what you do in response to when they're gone, AND how they went, that determines their REAL value.
And to your mind people's real value is determined by whether we shall send more deaths to follow after them? How does that determine anything? You balance lives with lives in your view, and for all I know they could mean equally much or equally *little*.
You are *so* amazed that people see a qualitative difference between material property that can be replaced and human lives that can not, that I'm quite convinced that it's you who don't understant the value of human life.
Most people don't react "as if" human life is without value. They react as if human life is priceless. It's a subtle difference.
#34
While America is a predominantly Christian nation, we do indeed have a separation of Church and State.
(Ironically, our death penalty is based on Judeo-Christian theology itself.)
I think we're looking at a jury nullification problem here.
I'd venture the guess that Nichols' lawyer stuffed the jury with touchy feely Liberal Christians who "feel" (Liberals' only concern) very "bad" about the death penalty.
President Bush, as Texas Governor, was faced with an almost identical problem in the case of Carla Faye Tucker.
Carla, a vicious murderess who said she had an "orgasm" when she murdered people, asked to be spared by Gov. Bush because of her prison conversion.
Then Gov. Bush, upheld the rule of law of the state of Texas.
Carla met her Maker and Judge after lethal injection.
The death penalty isn't on trial here: Terry Nichols is.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 20:42 Comments ||
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#35
Ah. I see the problem now.
Indeed, people are priceless, and I hold that they are that way from conception, and that no other person has the right to unilaterally alter that value in any way. however, I hold that a person's value must be maintained by that person himself. That that person's value can be enhanced or diminished by that person's own acts is a CONSEQUENCE. Liberalism is, at its base, a denial and flight from consequences. You're willing to demand compensation up to a certain point, but when it gets too expensive, you start demanding mercy and clemency as a way to get out of paying for your deeds.
I am not a utilitarian, in that EVERYTHING that a person does affects their value: The President of a nation is more IMPORTANT, but that does not affect their VALUE as a human being. However, I believe it to be a safe bet that what a person does to people DOES affect their value as a person. Mother Teresa had more value than I do, not because my value is less, but that her actions to enhance priceless human lives has increased her intrinsic value. Conversely, those who destroy the priceless lives of others devalue their own lives. They are not worth keeping alive, by virtue of their own actions. I'm sure this calculus makes you uncomfortable, because it's a demand that we all are ACCOUNTABLE, that our actions have CONSEQUENCES, that those consequences must be endured. It's human nature to try to escape those consequences, so I suppose your attempt to carve out a loophole for others in the event you need it yourself in the future is understandable. But not excusable. Justice is the exercise of making sure people benefit from, or suffer from, the consequences of their actions.
It hit me today how silly people are who cite "Thou shalt not Kill" as an anti-death-penalty argument, when that very statement comes from a corpus of law that authorized stoning for adultery and blasphemy in addition to murder, gave specific instructions on how a siege was to be conducted, and directed the genocide of specific nations in a specific geographic area. I don't think God was contradictory, but that perhaps that commandment was directed to individuals as private citizens, and not to the corporate body or its officers, which had broader rights commensurate with broader responsibilities. King David made war numerous times, and was penalized only by not being permitted to build the first Temple. He sends Uriah to his death to take his wife, and he's confronted by the prophet and nearly loses everything as a consequence.
#36
Get ready for a new pan-Arab "fatwa" issuing Islamic clemency for all jihadis in Western prisons who use the "conversion" tactic in order to save their necks.
Philippine National Police (PNP) operatives apprehended an Israeli suspected to be a member of the al-Qaeda terror network in in Baguio City on June 7. Arrested was Mera Doutvsky.
That'd make Mera the worst kind of traitor...
Reports reaching the PNP headquarters in Camp Crame, Quezon City, disclosed that Mera was nabbed at about 2 p.m., by joint elements of the Criminal Investigation and Detection Unit and the Bureau of Immigration at the vicinity of the Department of Social Welfare Development in Baguio City. Authorities also said that Doutvsky was also found to be an undocumented and overstaying alien. Police said the information they received from the Bureau of Immigration revealed that Doutvsky is asuspected member of the al-Qaeda terrorist cell, an information still unconfirmed by other intelligence agencies. Doutvsky was turned over to the office of Alipio Fernandez Jr., BI commissioner, in Manila for proper disposition.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 1:33:42 PM ||
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#1
let the Mossad have him...he'll wish for head-panties
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 18:04 Comments ||
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#2
Authorities also said that Doutvsky was also found to be an undocumented and overstaying alien.
Don't these dipsticks ever learn? Every time they snag one of these f&%kwits, they've usually drawn attention to themselves with some sort of glaring violation of immigration or local law. If ever deportation amounted to a death sentence ...
Gunmen killed a Buddhist former policeman and fired three grenades into an army outpost in two separate incidents in Thailandâs restive Muslim south, police said on Sunday.
via J Post - Reg Reqâd
Jun. 13, 2004 19:10
In October, the foreign ministers of the United Kingdom, France, and Germany (known as the EU-3) went to Teheran and came back with a deal: Iran gives up its nuclear ambitions in exchange for better trade relations with the West. The mullahs were given six months to comply.
Eight months later, the jury is in. On June 1, International Atomic Energy Agency Director-General Mohamed El-Baradei issued a report that was full of smoking guns. In diplomatic language, it caught Iran in lie after lie.
Iran was supposed to declare all its enrichment facilities, yet it neglected to mention it had P-2 centrifuges â a particularly sophisticated type used only for weapons-grade enrichment. Inspectors discovered laser enrichment equipment; which again, reasonably points only to a weapons program. Finally, the IAEA found plutonium-separation experiments, and enriched uranium that the Iranians incredibly brush off as contamination from imported material.
The report, issued in advance for the IAEA Board of Governors meeting this week, notes that Iran was given time to clear up all these "omissions" and "outstanding questions." None of them was. Iran, if anything, is becoming more brazen.
On Saturday, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi openly declared Iranâs right to become "a member of the nuclear club." He also rejected US and European demands that it give up its assorted uranium enrichment programs. Finally, he confirmed that Iran had tried to buy 4,000 magnets for uranium enrichment purposes, but said this issue had been "unnecessarily" hyped.
We have gotten to the point at which, in the words of reporter James Traub in yesterdayâs New York Times Magazine, "What is nonnegotiable to the Iranians is unacceptable to the Bush administration, the EU-3, and Baradei himself."
This should not be a surprise. The last eight months have been spent pretending either that Iranâs nuclear ambitions were in question, or would be given up in response on the vague waving of carrots and sticks.
Whether it says so in so many words, the IAEA has succeeded in proving that Iran is bent on enriching nuclear fuel in a way that points in only one direction: nuclear weapons. This has put the international watchdog agency in a bind â if it is not forthright and aggressive, it will be duped as it was before the first war in Iraq, in which it gave a clean bill of health to facilities that were later proven to be the heart of Saddamâs nuclear weapons program. But if it declares Iran to be in outright violation, the IAEA fears that Iran will follow North Koreaâs lead and simply withdraw from the treaty, which would end inspections and remove the IAEA from the ball game.
Such institutional dilemmas should not be allowed to drive the international agenda. Iranâs intentions are crystal clear. The time has come for a simple question: Does Europe want Iran to go nuclear?
The long, sad story of sanctions against Iraq shows that economic pressure alone does not always produce cooperation. Yet if sanctions are not enough, than surely cajoling short of sanctions is a waste of precious time. Further, the more relevant precedent may not be the failure of sanctions in Iraq, but their success in Libya.
Faced with a united Security Council that imposed draconian sanctions in response to the downing of an American and a French airliner, having been caught red-handed smuggling nuclear equipment, and seeing Saddam Hussein having his teeth examined by a US Army medic, Muammar Gaddafi said that he had enough. He revealed a nuclear program the West did not even know he had and, pending verification, has gotten out of the terrorism business.
Iran is arguably more susceptible to such sanctions than was Libya. The Iranian economy is considerably larger, more advanced, and more dependent on the West than is Libyaâs. In Europe, Iranian diplomats are not used to being treated as pariahs. The Iranian people, while it may support the quest for the bomb, is likely to blame a government that it hates for any further hardships imposed by the international community.
To some, standing up to Iranâs brazen nuclear bid will be seen as starting another war. It is the opposite. It is not too late to attempt, by economic means alone, forcing Iran to go the way of Libya and getting out of the nuclear and terrorism business. The longer Europe and the US wait to act, the more the options will become limited to living with Iran as a terrorist base with a nuclear umbrella, or taking military action. The Mad Mullahs is an accurate moniker. Reason is not a component in their machinations and reason cannot be applied when assessing their actions. They are not reasonable, so donât waste any more time trying various carrots and sticks based upon reason. Mullahs with Nukes. Nope, doesnât work for me.
#1
Decisive action will have to be done. If the IAEA is worried that a negative report would result in them becoming irrelavant by Iran's withdrawl shows that the IAEA seems to have forgotten its main mission. For once, the IAEA has shown that Iran has been caught in lie after lie and they are Nuke bound. The IAEA has done its work, and now the situation enters its next phase.
The slapping on of sanctions will serve to deligitimize the Mad Mullahs and will begin the first step in the process of taking them down.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 14:16 Comments ||
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#2
Ok, what's the general thoughts on what's going on in the minds of planners with respect to the Mullahs?
Are we on for another Osirak-type strike from Israel? I'm assuming that there's no way the US is going to get involved explicitly (but that all possible help will be provided - advanced bunker-busters, intel etc.) as it's an election-year and it's more important to get Bush re-elected, as there *should* be time to take out the Mullahs even if they declare they've got nukes.
I suppose the question is this, if Bush knows that the Mullahs are about to get nukes before the election, will he order a US-strike (which surely has more chance of success than in Israeli lead strike) and possibly put his election chances at risk (the LLL all baying for 'incontrovertible evidence' of the nukes etc) or will he try and ride it out for November?
Thoughts?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
06/13/2004 14:26 Comments ||
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#3
Such institutional dilemmas should not be allowed to drive the international agenda. Iranâs intentions are crystal clear. The time has come for a simple question: Does Europe want Iran to go nuclear?
Europe had better face up to this vital question d@mn soon. The clock is ticking down with disturbing rapidity.
The longer Europe and the US wait to act, the more the options will become limited to living with Iran as a terrorist base with a nuclear umbrella, or taking military action.
This must not be allowed to pass. North Korea is the poster child for what will become of the Middle East should this occur.
Sanctions are now not even a BandAid solution, they are a day late and a dollar short. Iran must begin immediate dismantling of their nuclear program or face prompt military retaliation. No other sane options exist.
As I have asked before; What single benefit comes (save for the mullas) of Iran successfully fabricating nuclear weapons?
More than anything, it is incumbent upon Europe (for a change) to take action of their own accord. Along with Israel, they are the among first to be centered in Iran's nuclear crosshairs and must act accordingly. Should they refuse to do so and thereby place global security at risk, Europe will have finally and forever demonstrated their definitive incompetence to all and sundry.
#4
Are we on for another Osirak-type strike from Israel?
Maybe but if so it's going to be a *lot* less effective this time. Iran has literally dozens of facilities that we know about and a double-digit number of operating indigenous uranium mines. Couple that with the fact that IAEA inspectors returned to places where they'd found processing facilities to find only fresh gardens and open fields this time around and you have a genie that's loose from its bottle. An airstrike (or two, or ten) isn't going to cripple the program.
Europe had better face up to this vital question d@mn soon.
The French government is on record as saying that, "... the world had better just get used to nuclear proliferation because it can't be stopped." That's about all we need to know about international opinion IMHO.
What single benefit comes (save for the mullas) of Iran successfully fabricating nuclear weapons?
There aren't any, because if the Islamofascists start to get hold of these weapons then the horrific logic of the 'The Three Conjectures' starts to assert itself. The West will then eventually annihilate the Muslim world. Or, if the West doesn't then the Russians or Chinese will.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
06/13/2004 15:34 Comments ||
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#6
The mad mullahs cannot be allowed to go nukular. We must draw the lind in their sand. Or, why bother reproducing. Our doom will be sealed.
#7
An airstrike (or two, or ten) isn't going to cripple the program.
If so, then we need to seriously consider a massive decapitating strike against the Guardian Council while it is in full session. That a leadership body should recklessly pursue such a costly nuclear weapons program while their population starves warrants all of them a first class ticket to hell and nothing else.
The French government is on record as saying that, "... the world had better just get used to nuclear proliferation because it can't be stopped."
I'd love to see a cite for that. Even though I dislike name calling in political debate, such a stance would cement the French appellation of "surrender monkeys."
Good points about Europe.
Thank you, Tony. Britain is one of the few European powers displaying a remote sense of responsibility in the war on terror. Sadly, such twaddle as "Muslim friendly workplaces" and the desire to sell China advanced weapon systems compromises their position rather dreadfully.
I am also obliged to thank you very much for the Belmont link. It succinctly summarizes all the conclusions I have reached on my own.
It is supremely ironic that the survival of the Islamic world should hinge on an American victory in the War on Terror, the last chance to prevent that terrible day in which all the decisions will have already been made for us. That effort really consists of two separate aspects: a campaign to destroy the locus of militant Islam and prevent their acquisition of WMDs; and an attempt to awaken the world to the urgency of the threat. While American arms have proven irresistible, much of Europe, as well as moderates in the Islamic world, remain blind to the danger and indeed increase it.
Although I anticipate a slightly higher threashold, it will take a very few terrorist nuclear attacks to precipitate the obliteration of all Islamic nations.
How sad it is that moderate Muslims do not fully realize the ominous threat militant Islamists present to their entire population and collective faith itself. A very few have placed Islam's collective neck on the nuclear chopping block.
Iran is chief among those who risk everything for all and it would be well advised for every Islamic leader to read the Belmont article. Their very lives depend upon it.
#9
mhw - Agreed. We need to support and help foment the nascent revolution that has already started in Iran, before the mullahs have a chance to achieve their doomsday scenario.
Or the decent people of Iran will die along with the extremists.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/13/2004 16:41 Comments ||
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#10
Have sanctions ever worked? How about fomenting rebellion like group (ala contra's in nicaragua)
#11
We need to support and help foment the nascent revolution that has already started in Iran, before the mullahs have a chance to achieve their doomsday scenario.
mhw, thank you for the blog link. I do not think there is time to wait for regime change, unless it is through a decapitating strike against the Guardian Council (see below).
Barbara, I do not think we have the luxury of waiting for internal Iranian change. The threat is too dire and we have no idea of exactly how near or far the Iranians are to fabricating a weapon. Their unending tissue of lies and deceit demand making worst case assumptions regarding any existing danger. Even a single nuclear device in the mullahs' hands could drastically alter the balance of power in the Middle East. As an American, I have not an iota of reassurance that Iran would not deliver that weapon into the hands of those who would use it against us. However more likely it would be that Iran would retain their first weapon as a deterrent, there is no reason to assume any logical reasoning process upon their part.
If you have not done so already, I urge you to read "The Three Conjectures." It rather lucidly spells out how even a single Islamist nuclear attack against America could trigger the destruction of all Muslims. Only the most hateful of people see that as something to be desired. I am not there yet and would prefer to see Iran's weapons production facilities or government power structure destroyed first.
The Iranian people do not deserve to be exposed to the radiological fallout resulting from destruction of their bomb making facilities. However, the remaining world deserves the consequences of a nuclear armed Iran even less.
#15
I think of 'em more as the moles in those whack-a-mole arcade games. Every time one raises his head to pop off about the Great Satan et al., it would behoove said Great Satan to take a whack.
#16
Agree we don't have much time, Zenster. But I think the Iranian people - particularly the younger ones, which make up more than half the population - are up for a mullah-smashing revolution if they have the right help and, when it starts, we follow through to the mullahs' end.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/13/2004 22:33 Comments ||
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#17
Barbara, permit me to briefly mention just how much I routinely enjoy your posts here at Rantburg. That said, I truly hope you are right about us having the latitude to utilize internal Iranian elements towards bringing about regime change there.
If one transposes the North Korean imbroglio onto the Middle East template, there is simply too much at stake not to warrant immediate and forceful intervention. If we can somehow manage a decapitating strike, I'm all for it. If the only functional solution is bombing their entire nuclear program straight to hell, then I am obliged to support that instead.
I desperately want Iran's people out from under the mullahs' collective thumbs. That nation's institutionalized abuse of women alone makes it a priority. Iran's nuclear program makes it critical.
I heartily concur with you how if we back an insurgency there, we must not drop the ball as we did in with the Shiites in Iraq so long ago.
#18
When the role of various intelligence agencies, have devolved to that of hearsay, and gossip agencies. While stark ineptitude of the political classes leaves the only alternative to be found in regurgitation of the failed policies of the past. It is with little surprise to watch the headlong rush to the ultimate confrontation of third world war. Einstein once remarked; âI cannot envisage how, when, and where the third world war is going to be fought, but I am certain fourth world war will be fought with sticks and stones!â.
The current propaganda offensive on Iran, under the pretext of nuclear weapons development etc, somehow discounts the Poland scenario of the 2nd world war. Those whose optimism knows no bounds, believing the military might of US able to prevail perhaps have forgotten the old catch phrase of the civil defence movies âduck and take coverâ!
There again the Christian fundamentalists, and Zionists Zealots have conflated dreams of Armageddon and Ertz Israel, while the greed of others have dulled their senses of proportion. While it is patently apparent that the plebeians too have come to accept the inevitable; destruction of the whole of the civilisation as we know it!
The dangerous policies of confrontation will only yield annihilation of the human civilisation, with that in mind if any of the posters have the luxury of time to start constructing their nuclear biological chemical shelters, funds permitting, then do so at once! Creative destruction could mean your destruction too!
The many others whom have little funds in the way of allocation for such eventuality best start waking up to the fact that, the only alternative remaining is a regime change in the Whitehouse, and reclaiming of the conservative values from the evil corruption of the neo conservatives whose questionable loyalties, and pandering to the greed of the delusional political classes have so far cost a great many lives and Dollars.
via Wash Times - EFL
By Ali Akbar Dareini
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Iran wonât accept any new internationally imposed obligations regarding its nuclear program and the world must recognize the country as a nuclear-capable nation, the foreign minister said yesterday. The comments suggested a toughening of Iranâs position two days before a meeting of the 35-nation board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to discuss Iranâs nuclear program. "We wonât accept any new obligations," Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi told reporters. "Iran has a high technical capability and has to be recognized by the international community as a member of the nuclear club," he said. "This is an irreversible path." ...more...
So there you have it. Theyâre stud muffins cuz they said so. Let this pass into reality, which it is not now despite the smug bluffing, and expect to see it repeated elsewhere. Tick... Tock...
Posted by: .com ||
06/13/2004 4:22:18 AM ||
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Sometimes, when it seems like we're spinning our wheels, it's good to look back a year or two to see what was going on in the Wonderful World of Terror. I've added two links up top on the main page to do that, and on September 11th I'll add a Three Years Ago link.
Last year at this time U.S. troops in Afghanistan were duking it out with Badshah Khan Zadran's hard boyz. He's since retired from the tough guy game, though he's not dead, so he could return any time. The Soddies were rounding up suspects after the May 12th bombings in Riyadh. Tony Blair was in political trouble, Chuck Taylor was still in power in Liberia, and the Frenchies were shooting it out with cannibals in the DRC. The U.S. and the Norks were talking about having discussions that might lead to talks. The Pak coppers arrested five Bad Boyz in Karachi and the ayatollahs' hard boyz were thumping students in Teheran. 3rd ID had sealed off Fallujah and Rantissi had just rejected a cease-fire offer that he may have later, briefly, wished he'd taken.
Two years ago Karzai was elected as leader of all the Afghans, you betcha. The U.S. and the Norks were talking about having discussions that might lead to talks. The U.S. had closed its embassy and consulates in Pakland and al-Qanoon had taken credit for the attack on our consulate in Karachi. Amr Moussa, head of the Arab League, warned the U.S. that the War on Terror wasn't the most important thing in the world; Paleostine was. Gen. Abdel Razak Yehiyeh, the newly appointed Paleostinian security chief, wanted to put an end to militias. That worked well, didn't it? And Abu Sabaya (remember him?) had escaped again in the Philippines. He's now The Late, so I guess we have made some progress, in those areas where it's not the same old thing, over and over again...
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 8:43:25 PM ||
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#1
Oh, I'm so confused!
Lol - Fred that sounds like a GREAT idea! Maybe even make a game of it: Who's still breathing?
#2
Here is as good a place as any, so I'll take this opportunity to say;
Thank you, Fred, for providing a forum where participants are encouraged to take the threat of terrorism seriously. The number of people I encounter who soft-pedal the atrocities of international terror and Islamic theocracies simply goes beyond belief. The ammunition that this board provides on a regular basis has allowed me to make sure they STFU whenever they start spouting their claptrap. For that I am truly grateful.
#3
Are you surrounded? Then you've got 'em right where you want 'em - just look up Nathan Bedford Forrest's tactics in the Civil War, particularly Brice's Crossroads. You just need one ally on-site to cover your back.
#4
thank you fred for this blog. im come here evrytime i can get news on war on teror. im not see any blog beter than this one for that subject. ima have a donation coming up tuesday to you. im po boy but need feel im can contribute. :)
just wondering you rantburgers. im trying get two hippies and two freepers start posting my blog starting july on political race. im find one hippie already and am looking for other. still need two good debating freepers to post things they are feel relevant. as for me im still post my animal stories there and think ive found another to also contribute animal news from janeaner garafolo blog. if any intrest e-mail muck4doo@yahoo.com
#5
O great! Just what I need to prove I haven't got any smarter...... my ex-wife put you up to this?
;-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 21:29 Comments ||
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#6
Fred, I hope it doesn't crash on Feb 29ths. ;)
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
06/13/2004 21:41 Comments ||
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#7
I already checked out the new linky-links. The most interesting part for me is just how many posters/commentators are still here after two years, posting and debating. I found my way to Rantburg a couple of months after 9/11/01 and still haven't found the exit ramp back onto the information superhighway. Thank you Fred, and all my skeptical and funny as hell friends here in the 'Burg. God bless everyone out fighting the good fight tonight, the keyboard warriors included.
#9
Great. Now I get to see my dumb-ass comments from years ago! Frank G, you're not the only one :)
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/13/2004 22:53 Comments ||
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#10
Thanks for allowing me, unworthy though I am, to participate in Rantburg U.
All the world's a soap opera and it's lines like this....Rantissi had just rejected a cease-fire offer that he may have later, briefly, wished he'd taken LOL!
that make this site the best on the net for getting the latest updates and understanding what they mean!
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 23:09 Comments ||
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From Fridayâs paper; EFL
Despite recent announcements from Iraqâs interim prime minister that militias would be absorbed into the national defense forces, the largest private army in Iraq will remain intact and under Kurdish command when the country takes its first steps to sovereignty this summer. The two major Kurdish parties will keep roughly half of their current peshmerga fighters, but reassign them to an internal security service that would maintain most of the same command structure as the current defense forces. Also, some news on the interim constitution...
Qubad Talabany, the son of PUK leader Jalal Talabany, also said the transitional administrative law passed this spring has a provision that allows for internal security services to be controlled by the regional governments that share power in northern Iraqâs Kurdistan. The U.N. resolution passed this week makes no mention of the interim constitution. But in the last two days Iraqâs interim prime minister, Iyad Allawi, and its president, Ghazi al-Yawar, said the new law would at least apply to the government between July 1 and January 2005, when Iraqis are to take part in elections for a national assembly. âThe Transitional Administrative Law is a piece of work we are really proud of,â Mr. al-Yawar told reporters in Washington yesterday. âIt is our road map toward a democratic society.â "Sistani doesnât own me."
Mr. Bremerâs national security adviser, David Gompert, originally wanted all the peshmerga absorbed into the future national Iraqi army and other national institutions. The Kurds wanted Iraq to adopt a National Guard system under which their fighters would take orders from the regional Kurdish governors where they served. As a compromise, 30,000 peshmerga taken from the two major parties will either retire, be absorbed into the army, or given new job training, Mr.Talabany said. The remaining 30,000 peshmerga will be reassigned to a regional internal security service, where they will be mounted rangers, counterterrorism commandos, or part of a rapid reaction force. This regional army setup canât last, but itâs important leverage for the Kurds while the new constitution is being hammered out.
#2
This regional army setup canât last, All Western armies developed in this way and it was militarily very effective as well as ensuring the regions maintained an effective voice in relation to the central government. We still see the remnants of it in the UK regimental system for example.
#4
I agree - we ought to free Saddam. Among the Marsh Arabs. With no weapons (for him, anyway). Right in the middle of the water he cut off from them that has now been restored.
Heh.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/13/2004 21:19 Comments ||
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#5
They'd sell him to the highest bidder... Mebbe the despised dreaded Kuwaitis, Lol! Now that would be his ass!
#6
Y'know what? That might be something really worth consideration - they'd prolly take Saddam in exchange for the HUGE reparations they're demanding of Iraq from Gulf War I... There are many people still missing from very prominent Kuwaiti families. One of the few overlapping concepts which we share with Arabs: Payback. It just lasts for centuries in Arabia.
Pakistani authorities have arrested 10 suspected al Qaeda members, including a nephew of detained terror mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and eight Central Asians believed responsible for a recent assassination attempt against a senior military official, the interior minister said Sunday. The men were arrested over the weekend in separate raids in the southern port city of Karachi, Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat said at a news conference. Among them was Masrab Arochi, a nephew of former al Qaeda No. 3 Mohammed, who was detained in March 2003 in a city near the Pakistani capital. Arochi had a $1 million bounty on his head, Hayat said, and is believed to have been behind several attacks in Pakistan.
Cue "Family Affair" theme music...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 1:30:29 PM ||
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Algeriaâs leading Islamic militant group, which has ties to al Qaeda, has declared war on foreign people and companies in the oil-rich north African country, an Islamic website said on Sunday. The "foreigners war statement" appeared shortly after the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) claimed responsibility for killing more than a dozen soldiers in an apparent escalation of violence in the strife-torn country. "The Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat decides...to declare war on everything that is foreign and atheistic within Algeriaâs borders, whether against individuals, interests or installations," GSPC leader Nabil Sahraoui said in a statement.
"Let xenophobia reign supreme! Let the foreigners depart and the national economy tank!"
Analysts said it was too early to say whether the threat was serious but noted that it coincided with an increase in deadly attacks on Westerners in the Middle East, particularly in Saudi Arabia. More than 300 people have died in violence this year, about 40 of them in June, according to newspaper reports.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 2:14:34 PM ||
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From The New York Times
.... In November, a 16-year-old from Nablus blew himself up near Israeli soldiers in the West Bank, killing no one else. Another 16-year-old carried out a nearly identical action in January, with the same result. In March, Hussam Abdo, 16, was captured on videotape when he was confronted and arrested by Israeli troops at a checkpoint with a bomb belt cinched under his red sweater. In early May, Israel arrested two Nablus residents, ages 18 and 19, who are accused of planning a bombing. Not all the cases are directly linked, but Israel says that it also has arrested a teenager it accuses of recruiting several youths in Nablus to become bombers. He is Nasser Awartani.
Nasser, 15, a good student with no previous record of trouble, is one of four youths from the same 10th-grade class who are in Israeli custody, suspected of links to attacks emanating from Nablus. "In his interrogation, Nasser admitted recruiting and attempting to recruit suicide bombers," says a report of his questioning, conducted by Israelâs Shin Bet security service. The report was made available in response to a request from The New York Times. Nasserâs family members say they do not believe the accusations. ....
Some Palestinian leaders have condemned the use of teenagers, and opposition to the practice is widespread among ordinary Palestinians, but it is not clear that the practice has stopped. Palestinian factions say that women and youths are more able than men to slip past Israeli security checks. The number of young bombers coming out of Nablus has raised questions about their recruitment. Israel says Nasserâs case shows that the factions have used teenagers to lure other teenagers. ...
According to the Shin Bet report, Nasser joined Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades last year. He also had links to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the report said. Initially, Nasserâs role was limited to such activities as putting up the "martyr posters" that are produced when Palestinians are killed. But last October, two students in Nasserâs class at the Abdel Hamid Assayeh school asked him if he wanted to be a suicide bomber, the report said. Nasser refused, but he agreed to recruit potential bombers, the report said, adding that his first choice was his friend and relative Sabih Abu Saud, a 16-year-old who lived nearby. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
06/13/2004 9:02:31 AM ||
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#1
"C'mon... all the cool kids are doing it. And did I mention sex, sex, sex? But ya gotta blow up first. After that it's all sex all the time. Whaddaya say?"
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
06/13/2004 00:53 ||
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#1
...Georgian allegations that Russia sent a military convoy of 160 trucks carrying
materiel and some 120 troops into the breakaway Republic of South Ossetia the previous day to repulse an anticipated Georgian military incursion...
*sarcasm* Oh, no, Russia will NEVER be aggressive towards its neighbours under Putin. Under Zhirinofsky perhaps but NEVER EVER under Putin, not in a hundred years. There's only some *influence* towards the former Soviet Union countries, not naked imperialistic aggression. */sarcasm*
Russia encourages separatism in three or four neighbouring countries even as it murders its own separatists by the hundred thousands.
Reminds me of Milosevic's Yugoslavia. In that case ofcourse it was in the neighbouring countries that the Serb separatists were murdering, and in Yugoslavia itself that the genocide against the Kosovars hadn't yet occured.
Now it's the opposite, where the genocide happened inside the borders of the Russian federation, but outside it it hasn't reached that point yet.
#3
In one sense, Aris is right: Just because the Russians are no longer motivated by Communism doesn't mean they ceased to be nationalistic. Regardless of who's at the helm, They'd love to sieze control of the Bosporus and get a perpetual warm water port closer to Mother Russia.
#4
the europeans will have to deal with a resurgent bear within the decade...and it will be def a euro problem especially with the contemp the US has been treated by the euros they will be own thier own....
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 15:58 Comments ||
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The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, has distributed 100,000 dollars on owners of demolished and damaged houses in the Zaitun suburb in Gaza city during the Zionist incursion last month. The Movement, in a ceremony organized at the Salahuddin Al-Ayubi mosque in Gaza city in the presence of Hamas leaders and scores of Zaitun inhabitants, distributed compensations ranging between 3,000 to 10,000 dollars according to the bulk of the destruction. Dr. Mahmoud Abu Duf delivered a statement on behalf of Hamas saluting the Zaitun inhabitants for their resoluteness and resistance of the occupation forces during the incursion. He emphasized that the money was not equal to a drop of blood of a martyr, the suffering of a captive or the screams of the wounded but they were only meant as a sign of loyalty to the steadfast people and in implementation of Islamic teachings. Abu Duf said that the road to dignity was filled with tragedies and sufferings. He said that Hamas extended a helping hand out of duty to boost the steadfastness of the Palestinian people.
Samir Kurdiyya delivered a statement in the name of the victims hailing the Hamas efforts and its charitable societies for standing alongside the Palestinian people at times of crisis. He affirmed that the Palestinian people would stand fast and would not be terrorized by the Zionist war machine. Kurdiyya urged all Palestinian and Arab official and popular institutions to support the Palestinian people's steadfastness.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:47 ||
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#1
"distributed compensations ranging between 3,000 to 10,000 dollars according to the bulk of the destruction."
so at most 33 "victims" and at least 10 received some compensation? Woo Hoo! What about the rest of the Paleos who became the "effect" from the Paleo "Cause"? Arafat's billions off limits for compensation or even discussion on HamasOnline? BTW Fred - isn't that a lovely site? KCNA without the flowery language
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 10:56 Comments ||
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Osama Hamdan, Hamas Movement representative in Lebanon, has warned that the Palestinians' main objective at present was searching for means of protecting the Palestine cause in face of Zionist premier Ariel Sharon's liquidation schemes. Hamdan warned against the involvement of regional forces (apparently referring to Egypt) in helping Sharon to carry out his goals and to take his place in quelling resistance. "Hamas has previously welcomed the Zionist withdrawal from Gaza as a coronation of the heroic Palestinian resistance's sacrifices," he pointed out. Hamdan, however, noted that the situation was currently different as Sharon changed his plan completely "and we did not hear any significant answer from Egypt so far". Hamas representative stressed that his Movement was keen on holding a dialogue with the brothers in Egypt to explain its viewpoint towards the new conditions.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:45 ||
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#1
I don't think Hamas wants to get into a fight with Egypt's forces. Egypt won't have the restraint shown by the "Zionists"
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 10:59 Comments ||
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#2
I think I'm figuring this out: Israel has made a deal with the Egyptians and Jordanians to take over, respectively, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as "Protectorates." But when the E's and the J's move in, they will kick seven bells out of Hamas and Fatah, and set up their own puppet Palestinian regimes.
Then they will probably start "re-patriating" Palestinians to their new "countries" whether they like it or not. And they won't. And any Palestinian who cuts up rough will find himself on the end of a bayonet.
Ironically, this solves a myriad of problems all at once, and might be the best thing that has ever happened to the Palestinians.
#3
Anonymoose, your assessment works on so many levels! I can only hope you're right.
"Hamas has previously welcomed the Zionist withdrawal from Gaza as a coronation of the heroic Palestinian resistance's sacrifices," he pointed out.
As usual, this "coronation" is accompanied by increased misery for the Palestinians as the Erez industrial zone closes down, thus eliminating some 5,000 Palestinian jobs. Way to go, you "heroic freedom fighters."
#4
Beirut - Osama Hamdan, Hamas Movement representative in Lebanon, has warned that the Palestinians' main objective at present was searching for means of protecting the Palestine cause in face of Zionist premier Ariel Sharon's liquidation schemes. Hamdan warned against the involvement of regional forces (apparently referring to Egypt) in helping Sharon to carry out his goals and to take his place in quelling resistance. "Hamas has previously welcomed the Zionist withdrawal from Gaza as a coronation of the heroic Palestinian resistance's sacrifices," he pointed out. Hamdan, however, noted that the situation was currently different as Sharon changed his plan completely "and we did not hear any significant answer from Egypt so far". Hamas representative stressed that his Movement was keen on holding a dialogue with the brothers in Egypt to explain its viewpoint towards the new conditions.
Arabic thought processes are obviously not Western. This is gobbledygook devoid of information. It is totally nonreferential, as if it were commentary on a non-existent text. However, I think that, in the main, Anonymoose has broken the code. Thanks.
Zionist occupation forces arrested 21 Palestinians in two West Bank areas overnight Thursday including a bridegroom during his wedding ceremony.
"... in holy matrimony, let them speak now or forever hold their peace!"
"We object!"
"Who're youse?"
"We're the Zionist army, that's who! Stick 'em up, Mr. Bridegroom! And you, too, Mr. Best Man!"
The Zionist terrorist troops arrested a Palestinian in Deir Kaddis village to the west of Ramallah city on charges of affiliation with the Hamas Movement. Another army unit arrested six Palestinians in Kherbat Al-Misbah also to the west Ramallah city, including five children, on charges of throwing stones at patrols and settlers' vehicles.
"Stick 'em up, y'little brats! And drop them rocks!"
A Palestinian was arrested in Shuka village, Ramallah district, on charges of affiliation with the Hamas Movement while three others were captured in Beitlello village to the west of Ramallah and two others to the east of the city. Army soldiers stormed the village of Kufr Malek to the northeast of Ramallah and arrested three Palestinians. Meanwhile, sources in Ramallah city said that a Zionist army unit arrested three Palestinians in a wedding ceremony in Ramallah city including the bridegroom Ramzi Brashi, 26. The occupation forces claimed that Ramzi had planned the shooting in February 2002 that killed a Zionist settler in the industrial area Atarot. Palestinian sources said that two other Palestinians were arrested in the West Bank city of Al-Khalil.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:44 ||
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The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, last night organized a rally at the Zaitun suburb in Gaza city to honor relatives of the martyrs who fought the Zionist incursion into the suburb more than a month ago. Dr. Ahmed Bahar delivered a statement on behalf of the Hamas Movement affirming that the tens of thousands, who arrived to the rally, voiced insistence on steadfastness and patience in defense of national lands and holy shrines. He vowed that the Movement would do whatever it could alongside Palestinian philanthropists to assist in rebuilding what the Zionist terrorist forces had destroyed. The Zionist army wanted to break the Palestinian people's determination through its invasion of the Zaitun suburb but the Qassam Brigades (Hamas military wing) were at the forefront, led by commander deader martyr Wael Nassar and the deader martyr commander Mohammed Sarsor, to fight them back, he elaborated.
Bahar recalled that Hamas Mujahideen blasted the Zionist armored personnel carrier that killed six soldiers. The Hamas leader urged all Palestinian factions to unite in the trench of resistance, adding that any strike against the enemy would add to the accomplishments of Jihad and resistance. Bahar described the Zionist premier Ariel Sharon's withdrawal plan from the Strip as a 'big deception' meant to drag Palestinian and Arab parties into the trap of aborting the intifada, wiping out resistance, stabilizing occupation and shifting the struggle into the Palestinian arena. Sharon's evacuation plan was a security project that did not take into consideration the Palestinian people's rights of return, self-determination, independence and sovereignty, he explained. He noted that Zionist redeployment scheme stipulated retaining Zionist control on crossings and ports in addition to allowing the Zionist forces to violate sovereignty of Gaza via land, air or sea whenever it wished. He advocated the formation of a unified national leadership to face such challenges grouping all national and Islamic factions on the Palestinian arena.
Under... ahem... Hamas leadership, of course.
Bahar underlined that the withdrawal should not be in return for any political Palestinian or Arab price or at the expense of Palestinian national rights. He affirmed that the Palestinian people refused the return to the bitter experience of prosecuting, chasing, arresting or disarming Mujahideen.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:43 ||
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#1
"Bahar described the Zionist premier Ariel Sharon's withdrawal plan from the Strip as a big deception meant to drag Palestinian and Arab parties into the trap of aborting the intifada, wiping out resistance, stabilizing occupation and shifting the struggle into the Palestinian arena"
Ya mean we have to govern? We can't just blow up Joooos? Where's the fun in that?
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 10:53 Comments ||
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#2
He advocated the formation of a unified national leadership to face such challenges grouping all national and Islamic factions on the Palestinian arena.
Sounds like the terrorists are desperately attempting to assemble their rapidly dwindling ranks so as to still form the minimum quorum required for a proper set of pallbearers.
Bahar underlined that the withdrawal should not be in return for any political Palestinian or Arab price or at the expense of Palestinian national rights.
No quid pro quo! What a great way to ensure bilateral agreement on anything. As always, these screwballs are like labor union negotiators who refuse to make even the least worker concessions which suddenly result in the mill getting shut down.
He affirmed that the Palestinian people refused the return to the bitter experience of prosecuting, chasing, arresting or disarming Mujahideen.
Perish the f&%king thought that you might begin to those weed out those who brought so much misery upon yourselves. It is the only explanation for why Arafat continues to consume their limited oxygen supply.
#3
Zenster---Arafish is irrelavant. Unless he gets really involved in booming, he is the Truk Island fortress of Paleostine. The Israelis will just let him rot. He is getting all the props pulled out from underneath him.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 14:08 Comments ||
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#4
I wonder if the uniform of the day for the new national government unified around Hamas will include bulls-eye pattern robes? These guys are like American civil rights leaders. Their time has come and gone and all they can do is stir up trouble to try to prove they are still relevant. The "right of return" is the last bloody shirt they can wave to try and distract people from the actual prospect of an end to the troubles.
Posted by: Random thoughts ||
06/13/2004 17:33 Comments ||
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#5
RT - well said.
Posted by: B ||
06/13/2004 20:33 Comments ||
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#6
Dr. Ahmed Bahar
Another doctor. What the hell is it with the Arabs in general and the Paleos in particular that their doctors run around advocating mass murder, while doctors in the rest of the world concentrate on healing?
No wonder they have a "shame" culture - I'd be ashamed of that too.
What a bunch of sick losers.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/13/2004 22:40 Comments ||
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The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, is insisting that the resistance against the Zionist-Nazis regime will continue until Gaza is free from the last Zionist occupation soldier. Mahmoud al Zahhar, the current star of the targeting list one of Hamas's prominent leaders, told the Qatari satellite TV, al Jazeera, Saturday, that the resistance against the Zionist occupiers would continue until occupation was no more. "Why should we terminate the resistance. Is Gaza free from the Zionists? Have the settlements been dismantled?," he asked.
"Just because they said they were gonna doesn't mean they're gonna..."
Zahhar advised the Egyptian government against believing Zionist lies. He said any Egyptian intervention in Gaza should be for the collective good of the Palestinian people and should in no way and by no means serve Zionist interests or alienate any Palestinian faction. Earlier, Ismael Haniyyeh, currently awaiting his turn at the top of the targeting list another Hamas' leader, made similar remarks. He said Egypt should not exert any pressure on the Palestinian factions, arguing that such a pressure would only serve Zionist goals.
"Nobody don't tell us what to do! We don't need no standards of behavior!"
In a related development, PA premier Ahmed Qurei was due to arrive in Gaza Saturday for talks with the leaders of the resistance factions. Palestinian sources said Qrei would discuss with the leaders of Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other groups security arrangements in Gaza following the planned unilateral Zionist withdrawal from the Strip.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:42 ||
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#1
The Hamas website should contact the North Koreans to learn how to punch up their propaganda. This stuff is just boring - about a 1.5 out of 10 on the spittle spraying scale.
Stone-throwing supporters of an Afghan regional leader have prevented a new governor appointed by President Hamid Karzai from taking office in a northern province, residents said yesterday. In the latest challenge to Karzaiâs efforts to expand his influence in the restive provinces, dozens of people hurled rocks at the convoy of the new governor of Sari Pul, Abdul Haq Shafaq, when he arrived on Friday to take up his position. Despite the protection of 100 armed policemen sent from Kabul, Shafaq was forced to return to Mazar-e-Sharif, the key city in northern Afghanistan, when one of his escort was wounded, witnesses and police said. The stone-throwers were mostly supporters of Abdul Rashid Dostum, they said. The crowd was protesting against Shafaq being appointed in place of Taj Mohammad Kohi, an ally of Dostum.
Dostum denied any link with the protest, which he described as a spontaneous show of support. âWhat is going on is the anger of people toward Kabul,â he said. Mazar-e-Sharifâs police chief, Akram Khakreezwal, said Shafaq had been advised to stay in Mazar-e-Sharif with his escort and wait for orders from Kabul.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:40 ||
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#1
Hell of a way to achieve consensus....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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Dostum denied any link with the protest, which he described as a spontaneous show of support.
Spontaneous in that it took three days to organise. 'Planned' in Afghanistan takes three months.
Pakistani troops backed by helicopter gunships and fighter jets carried out a hunt for militants and faced little resistance as they converged on a cluster of suspected Al-Qaeda hide-outs and a training facility in a remote tribal region near Afghanistan, officials said yesterday
That'd mean they've beat it...
A US military official said American forces in Afghanistan were closely following the action, and ready to move against any militants who attempted to flee across the border The offensive focused on three Al-Qaeda-linked compounds â a training facility, a safe house, and the home of an alleged terror financier â near the town of Shakai, about 25 kilometers west of Wana, the largest town in South Waziristan. The operation continued yesterday after Pakistani forces used artillery and helicopter gunships the day before against rebels near Shakai. Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan told The Associated Press that troops looking for rebels searched mountain hide-outs near Shakai yesterday, aided by helicopters and fighter jets. No arrests were reported. Sultan said Pakistani troops and the militants exchanged sporadic gunfire throughout the day yesterday. There was no word on either side of fresh casualties
Contact with the rear guard, while the important guys make it to North Waziristan...
Rehmatullah Yargulkhel, a tribal elder living in Wana, told AP by telephone that he saw planes and helicopters flying toward Shakai and heard artillery coming from the area. But it was quiet by evening. In Kabul, the Afghan capital, US military spokesman Lt. Col. Tucker Mansager said American forces were in âvery close contactâ with their Pakistani counterparts and sharing information.
I'd guess that's where the targeting data. Inter-Services Intelligence isn't very good at actual intelligence...
âWe maintain a very robust presence on that portion of the border in anticipation that any anti-coalition militants that might try to escape the Pakistani Army across the border,â Mansager told reporters. He said American forces had seen âno particular increase so farâ in the movement of suspected militants across the border since the Pakistani operation began. âBut weâre more than ready for it if it comes.â
I doubt they'll head to Afghanistan. More likely they're just relocating a few miles north, sheltering with some other tribe that loves them just as deeply as the Akhmedzai...
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:40 ||
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Palestinian fighters accused Jordan yesterday of sending officers to scout the West Bank without the knowledge of President Yasser Arafat, raising fears Amman could set terms in a territory Palestinians want for a state.
Like the Egyptians are gonna do in Gaza...
Jordan, which with Egypt has offered to train Palestinian security forces to take over areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip where Israel plans to end its occupation, denied the report that Jordanian Army officers had secretly toured Jenin.
"No, no! Certainly not!"
Palestinian Authority officials said they asked Jordan for clarification. Israeli officials did not immediately comment. In the 1980s Israel held short-lived talks with Amman on restoring Jordanâs civil administration over the territory. According to the Jenin head of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed group in Arafatâs Fatah faction, five Jordanian high-level officers visited the West Bank city on Friday as civilians. âFirst they told me they were here to make a film, but then they told me they were touring the West Bank and other parts of the Arab world,â Zakaria Al-Zubaidi told Reuters. âThey met with junior Palestinian security officials and were interviewing people after Friday prayers.â Zubaidi said he asked the officers to leave Jenin after discovering that their visit had not been coordinated with Arafat, whom Israel has tried to sideline by confining him to the rubble of his headquarters in Ramallah. âI told them we welcome the Arab presence to retrain our security forces, which Israel destroyed, but with conditions,â he said. âFirst they have to talk to our president, Yasser Arafat... and we are against retraining security forces that will work on aborting the intifada,â Zubaidi added.
"We ain't gonna put up with nobody imposing public order, y'know..."
The Foreign Ministry in Amman, which on Thursday rejected rumors of a joint military patrol with Israel of the West Bankâs Jordan Valley, yesterday reiterated this denial. âThere is no presence of Jordanian personnel in the West Bank,â a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. Uncertainty has flooded Palestinian streets since Israelâs government approved in principle a plan by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to remove all settlements from all of Gaza but only four in the West Bank â all of them in the vicinity of Jenin. Sharon casts his âdisengagement planâ as a bid to break the Middle East deadlock, but many Palestinians fear it is a ploy to cement Israelâs hold on much of the West Bank and deny them a viable independent statehood.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 08:38 ||
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#1
heh..heh..watch out what you wish for. Palestinians, killed the goose that laid the Golden eggs.
#2
Sharon casts his âdisengagement planâ as a bid to break the Middle East deadlock, but many Palestinians fear it is a ploy to cement Israelâs hold on much of the West Bank and deny them a viable independent statehood.
This is funny as hell - Israel wants to pull its citizens and forces out to points largely outside Palestinian territory, and the Paleos think the move would "cement" Israel's "hold on much of the West Bank". News flash: if Israeli forces aren't going to be in your territory, then they don't have a hold on it.
#3
âI told them we welcome the Arab presence to retrain our security forces, which Israel destroyed, but with conditions,â he said. âFirst they have to talk to our president, Yasser Arafat... and we are against retraining security forces that will work on aborting the intifada,â
The Palestinians obviously inhabit an alternate reality. The only thing that will bring peace to the region is for the rest of the world to quit paying attention to anything they do or say AND to quit providing the money, food, and protection that allows their charade to continue. Give the land back to Jordan and Egypt and tell them to deal with the problem. Shoot anyone who tries to cross the border into Israel without a visa from Israel.
via Bost Glob
By Thanassis Cambanis | June 13, 2004
In quiet courtyards like this one, at the little-known shrine of Sayyed Idârees, the most influential leaders of Shiâite Iraq are biding their time. Haji Abbas Rida al-Zubaydi tells his working-class followers thereâs no rush to join a militia, fight the Americans, or condemn Iraqâs interim government of exiles and technocrats: Shiâite power is just within reach, he says, if people have the patience to wait another six months. In places like Sadr City and Kufa, militiamen loyal to Moqtada al-Sadr are still staging nightly ambushes from alleys and cemeteries, seemingly determined to kill as many American soldiers as they can. Yet almost two weeks after an interim government was announced, mainstream Shiâite leaders have spread a message of patience and inevitable victory: Wait for elections, and then weâll take power, they are telling Iraqâs Shiâites, who account for 60 to 70 percent of the countryâs 26 million people.
Their counsel might provide short-term comfort to officials from the United States, the United Nations, and the interim Iraqi government whose success depends on improving security and staging peaceful national elections by January. In the long term, many Shiâites cling to the belief that a theocratic government, run by turbaned clerics, will ultimately prevail once Iraqis are free to vote, which could someday put them at odds with many other Iraqis, as well as US policy makers, who want a secular state here. They differ with Sadr and his followers because they find his quest for power unseemly, hurried, and prematurely violent. But they donât disagree with his vision of a Shiâite-controlled, religiously ruled Iraq. "God willing, we will have our Shiâite president through elections," said Zubaydi, 62, the keeper of the Shrine of Idârees. "We are the majority. The United States has proven it does not want religious men, so we are waiting for the free elections, which we hope will get the clerics into the government." A mild-mannered man who boasts that in 30 years of marriage "I have never once beaten my wife," Zubaydi takes moderate-sounding positions on todayâs political situation in Iraq, which echo last weekâs pronouncement by Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. ...more... Learning the game.
Posted by: .com ||
06/13/2004 4:36:27 AM ||
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many Shiâites cling to the belief that a theocratic government, run by turbaned clerics, will ultimately prevail once Iraqis are free to vote
The turbaned clerics have to be elected first. And then re-elected to maintain power. Keep that in mind, Mr. Zubaydi.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/13/2004 9:42 Comments ||
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#2
A mild-mannered man who boasts that in 30 years of marriage "I have never once beaten my wife,"
There you have it, the 'gold' standard for the Arab husband.
#3
All the more reason to ensure installation of a solidly pluralistic legislature weighted with women and Kurds. The prospect of newly-liberated Iraqis being delivered up to the tender mercies of Shiite theocracy is an outright desecration of so many American lives lost in freeing their nation.
A senior official at Iraqâs ministry of education has been shot dead outside his home in west Baghdad. Director of cultural relations Kamal al-Jarrah was gunned down as he left for work in the Ghazaliya district. The incident comes a day after interim deputy foreign minister Bassam Qubba was killed by gunmen in the capital. A few days earlier, deputy health minister Ammar Safar escaped an attempt on his life in the same district while he was on his way to the ministry. The BBCâs Barnaby Phillips in Baghdad says the message from the gunmen to anyone involved in the interim government is clear and chilling - that they are all targets and their lives are in danger.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
06/13/2004 4:32:13 AM ||
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Less than three months after The Hindu broke the news of the detention of a top Lashkar-e-Taiba commander in Iraq, information is emerging that the Pakistan-based terrorist organisation may have set up a full-blown unit for suicide squad operations against Western forces. Up to 2,000 men, mainly between the ages of 18 and 25, are believed to have signed up for the Lashkar-e-Taibaâs armed operations in Iraq. Most come from towns in the Pakistani province of Punjab, where the Lashkar-e-Taibaâs overground political patron organisation, the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, wields considerable influence. Most Lashkar suicide squad volunteers come from the ranks of seminary students at Muridke, the Jamaat-ud-Dawaâs main centre. However, some have also been raised from the Binori Town seminary in Karachi, which used to be run by the fundamentalist cleric, Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, until he was assassinated. At a recent meeting, the Lashkar-e-Taibaâs overall head, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, told followers that "Islam is in grave danger, and the Mujahideen are fighting to keep its glory. They are fighting the forces of evil in Iraq in extremely difficult circumstances. We should send Mujahideen from Pakistan to help them." Dr. Saeedâs comments were made at a private meeting in the Jamia al-Qudsia mosque in Lahore late last month. Sources close to him told The Hindu that the Lashkar hoped to be able to send at least some suicide squad members to Iraq overland through the porous Iran-Pakistan border.
In April, this newspaper reported that a key Lashkar commander, Danish Ahmad, had been held by allied troops in Iraq. Mr. Ahmad played a central role in the organisationâs operations in Jammu and Kashmir from at least 1999, operating under the nom de guerre of Abdul Rehman al-Dakhil. Mr. Ahmad was first held by British forces in the southern city of Basra, and has since been interrogated by Central Intelligence Agency personnel. Western intelligence experts initially dismissed Mr. Ahmadâs initiative in Iraq as a one-off enterprise, but the new information emanating from Pakistan may force a re-think. Interestingly, Mr. Ahmad may have trained many of the men now being prepared for combat in Iraq. Islam-ud-Din, a Lashkar operative arrested in 1999, told Indian intelligence that Mr. Ahmad had trained hundreds of cadre at the Lashkarâs Maskar Abu Bashir camp in the use of arms and explosives.
Dr. Saeedâs tone on events in Iraq has intrigued observers, given his historically comfortable relationship with the military and intelligence establishments in Pakistan. "The U.S. and Britain are raping our mothers and sisters," the Jamaat-ud-Dawa leader said. "In this situation jihad becomes mandatory against them. The Mujahideen are our last hope. If they are not supported today, then tomorrow, Islam will be erased from the map of the world." Referring to possible Pakistani troop commitments in Iraq, Dr. Saeed said that he would support President Pervez Musharraf "if he sends troops to Iraq to fight against the U.S. and Britain. If he sends them to support the U.S., then we will spearhead a countrywide campaign against him." Despite its venomous polemic against General Musharraf, and its presence on a Pakistani Government terrorism watch-list, the Jamaat-ud-Dawa has enjoyed considerable freedom to raise funds and recruit cadre in recent months. The Lashkar-e-Taiba claims to have orchestrated around 200 suicide attacks between 1999 and 2002. Although India has been pushing for greater restrictions on the activities of Jihadi groups, Pakistan has been reluctant to go beyond curbing cross-border infiltration, for fear of provoking a backlash from the Islamist Right.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
06/13/2004 4:30:44 AM ||
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India's new Foreign Minister, Natwar Singh, says his government has yet to decide whether to send troops to Iraq. Speaking after talks in Washington with US Secretary of State Colin Powell, Mr Singh said the issue would have to be discussed within the government. "It is premature for me to say aye or nay," said Mr Singh on the subject of sending troops to Iraq as part of a multinational force.
Some softening in their position? UN resolution may have changed their minds.
When in opposition, Congress fiercely criticised the BJP for considering the American request for troops. As the first politician from the new government to visit the US for talks, Natwar Singh was keen to emphasise the ties between the two countries. "Both our countries have clear commonalities in shaping a democratic and pluralistic world order, free of terrorism," he said. Echoing his remarks, Mr Powell said the "US and India have a strong relationship right now and we intend to not only keep it strong but to build on that relationship, to move forward." Mr Powell also thanked India for backing the latest UN resolution on Iraq and brushed aside the notion that Washington had pinned its hopes on a BJP victory in last month's polls. "We don't place bets on elections," he said. "I learned that long ago. We will support and work with the government which the Indian people have decided upon."
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/13/2004 12:06:35 AM ||
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#1
Hmm.
This might really PO the Muj. If there is anythign they like even less than "Joooos", its "Hindoooos". Look at the slaugher they perpetrated there over their history - thats where some of the harshest doctrine for bigoted abuse of non-believers was founded.
Hindus. That would really mess with them.
Even better: make sure India sends over the Sikh units. Talk about fierce - they are a warrior culture from day one. Only ones any tougher are the Ghurkas.
#2
Muslims, particularly al Qaeda, have a tremendous amount of respect for Hindus.
Fortunately, the reverse is also true. (/s)
If Indian troops do get stationed in Iraq amidst the terrorists, I believe they could be very effective at whacking black hats. They'd relish the chance.
#4
...to get Pakistan to move its butt and get a division shipped in there.
Call me cynical, #3, but why would we want the Pakistanis in Iraq? Aren't these the same guys who always give Al Queda operatives multiple advance warnings to surrender and then ultimately let them escape?
Except for the fat hairy guy,[and maybe special ops gave the Pakis credit for his capture], what Al Queda have the Pakis nailed as of late? Could our GI's trust Pakistani soldiers to fight on the same side as them in Iraq? Just wondering...
Posted by: rex ||
06/13/2004 15:04 Comments ||
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#5
A couple tribal lashkars is the last thing we need running around Iraq. And the Pak army wouldn't be much of an improvement.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/13/2004 23:00 Comments ||
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Air strikes against the hideouts of foreign militants and their local protectors continued for the second day on Saturday amid fears that an unspecified number of Army commandos have either been held hostage or lost their lives in the troubled Shakai area of South Waziristan agency. ISPR officials did not confirm the loss of lives to the commando force, which was dropped in the mountainous Mandata area, some 7 kms north of Shakai on Friday after heavily bombarding the bases of the militants. No details of casualties on the militantsâ side were available due to the restriction imposed by law-enforcement agencies on entry to the area. The security personnel at a check-post detained four local journalists for two hours outside Shakai and all their belongings, including cameras and notebooks were snatched. However, the cameras were later returned to them but cassettes were seized, one of the detainees said.
Local tribesmen, who got out of Mandata and Shakai, told journalists in Wana that a number of Army commandos were trapped in the area and efforts were on to rescue them. About the siege by militants or hostage taking of the commandos, the locals said elders from Khojalkhel, Khunyakhel and Sperkai sub-tribes of Ahmadzai Wazir have been approached to negotiate with the militants for a safe return of the trapped personnel. It was also disclosed by the tribesmen that food and drinking water was in short supply in Mandata, Shakai and the surrounding villages for the last two days and local population has appealed to both sides to stop fighting to enable them shift to safer places.
The fighting on Saturday was not intense, local residents said. It was mainly due to the fact that the authorities had started negotiations with the militants through the local tribal elders. Fighter jets and gunship helicopters pounded the hideouts of militants. The bombing was so intense that it shook houses in Tiyarza and Khaisora, some 15 kilometres from Shakai, witnesses said. The militants targeted Army and paramilitary check-posts and bases with rockets in Zireynoor, Wana, Azam Warsak and Zaley areas on the night between Friday and Saturday. However no report of casualties has been received so far. Dozens of houses have been razed in Mandata Raghzai, Wayee and Shakai during the fighting, the locals said. It was also reported that a suicide bomber tried to attack a military convoy in Tiyarza the previous night, but the personnel of the security force pre-empted his bid and killed four foreign nationals. Two soldiers of the armed forces and three Jawans of the Frontier Corps were also killed in the cross-fire, the locals said. A captain of the Army was injured in the attack. Local Wazir tribesmen are leaving the troubled areas and majority of those moving out are women and children. The Ahmadzai Wazirs have been ordered not to come out of their houses after dusk. The authorities have also banned pillion riding. The random bombing and fire from heavy guns, locals said, has sent waves of terror among the tribesmen and even those supporting the government have expressed concern over the indiscriminate firing.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
06/13/2004 12:15:24 AM ||
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At least twice a month, bands of haggard Chechen guerrillas hunker down at the edge of this dusty farming hamlet and rendezvous with young quartermasters like the doe-eyed cop from nearby Shali. If the fighters want beef, the Shali cop persuades a local farmer to give up one of his cows. If a militant needs a wounded leg treated or even amputated, the cop arranges it. If they need grenade launchers, he can get his hands on some. "God willing, as long as we are alive, we will help them," the cop says softly, ringed by several friends who nod in agreement. He asked for anonymity to safeguard himself and his family. "Russians killed eight people in my family, including my father. As long as Russia is here in Chechnya, we will fight the Russians."
In recent years the separatist insurgency has been buoyed by Arab and Central Asian Muslim mercenaries and by millions of dollars in funding from Islamic fundamentalist organizations. Just as important, however, have been young Chechens like the Shali cop. Adrift in the misery of war and often driven by the urge to avenge a loved oneâs death, they help feed and clothe rebels, and in many cases join up. Further derailing the Kremlinâs efforts to stabilize Chechnya have been the scores of reports of torture, abductions and extrajudicial executions allegedly committed by Russian and pro-Moscow Chechen forces against Chechen civilians. Rarely investigated, such atrocities have stoked resentment among Chechens and, in some cases, stirred Chechen youth to help the rebel cause, said Imran Ezhiev, an activist with the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society, a human-rights group in the Caucasus region.
However, in recent years, separatist forces have grown far less cohesive. Many remain allied with Aslan Maskhadov, Chechnyaâs president during its de facto independence between 1996 and 1999. Others follow Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, who embraced Islamic fundamentalism in the late 1990s and claims responsibility for organizing many of the suicide bombing attacks that have terrorized Moscow and southern Russia in the past two years. A Chechen interviewed in a secluded farmhouse just outside Chechnya who asked for anonymity said he began fighting alongside separatists in 1999, the beginning of Russiaâs second attempt to quell the rebellion. The wiry Chechen explained that he answers "only to our president, Aslan Maskhadov." Now 23, the Chechen was 14 when Russian troops stormed into his familyâs house in the village of Noviye Atagi and took away his father. The fatherâs body was found in the village a week later. Too young to fight, the 14-year-old helped rebels get food and clothes for two years before becoming a fighter in 1999. Since then, he has fought alongside seven other guerrillas--none of them over 30--in a gang that moves between mountain villages and the dense woods at the foot of the Caucasus range. Occasionally, as they did two weeks ago, they engage in a firefight with Russian troops. "We were going through the forest, and then they saw us and we saw them," the guerrilla said. "We both opened fire at each other. We donât know how many Russians we killed. We were the first to leave . . . because there was only eight of us and many Russians."
For many fighters, the tour of duty is much briefer. They join, leave, then rejoin. Another 23-year-old Chechen spent two uneventful weeks with guerrillas in 2001 before his parents appeared at the rebel base and persuaded him to leave. In an interview in his native Serzhen-Yurt, the Chechen said his only brush with danger came when, working sentry duty, he nearly fired at a group of fellow Arab, Tajik and Afghan fighters who did not know the password. A week later, Russian troops arrested him and kept him in a pit for four days, he said. "I was beaten the whole time, and at the end of the fourth day, they told me, `This is the last day of your life.â" He said Russian authorities released him after his family paid an $1,800 ransom. Now a construction worker in Serzhen-Yurt, the Chechen called it a "great shame for me" that his family paid the ransom. "I am just waiting for the day that the majority of Chechens begins fighting the Russians. When they do, I will join them."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
I was talking to a Russian emigre the other day at work and he said that Chechens basically live to kill others they feel have slighted them.
He cited his own brother-in-law who is Chechen, lives here in the US, and works to and dreams of going back someday to kill some idiot there that he feels done his family wrong somehow.
My Russian friend's English isn't great but he definitely thinks Chechnya is an insane asylum.
God help us all if the Isamo-nazis take over. They'll have an endless supply of suicide bombers to attack the West.
Posted by: Evert V. in NL ||
06/13/2004 10:49 Comments ||
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#5
Evert> People here don't seem to care whether the Chechens in questions are right or wrong, or whether there are some Chechens that are good and some that are bad. They care only about the fact that they are Muslims.
That boy mentioned in the article, did he say anything about wanting to drive the infidels from Chechenya or impose Sharia law or follow the law of the prophet or anything Islamofascistic like that?
No, he said he wants vengeance against the tyrannical government that burst into his house and murdered his father. Quite reasonable IMO.
So, no, I don't find the parallel uncalled for at all.
#6
I would feel sympathy for the Chechens if they hadn't been joined by the Islamofascist movement. As long as they intend to set up another mini-Saudi/Iran terrorist state, I say Fuck em
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 11:19 Comments ||
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#7
agreed, fuck all muslims.
and when they wise up and get tame, don't be fooled, it's just a hudna, keep up the killing
#8
Frank> That's a bit like someone saying "I'd feel sympathy for Americans at 9/11 were it not that evil Americans also have sympathy for them" or perhaps "I'd feel bad for the murders of innocent Jews were it not that imperialistic Jews also feel bad about it"
It's the genocidal logic. Kill them all as it will also hurt the bad apples among them.
Evert> Do you still think it was uncalled for, after Dcreeper's comments? Heil mein fuhrer. Chechens, the Jews of today, their lives mattering less than other people's because of their faith.
#9
their lives mattering less than other people's because of their faith.
Perhaps because their faith explicitly specifies that non-muslims are to be killed nobody is willing to cut them any slack.
There's plenty of similar stuff buried in the Torah and the Bible as well, but it's not the main stream subject of sermons these days, unlike the state / hook-waving-mullah controlled mosques throughout the world.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
06/13/2004 12:58 Comments ||
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#10
straw man, Aris - If they intend to set up a state that uses terror against their neighbors and ultimately against my country I do not weep at the Cherchen Jihadis dying - hopefully slowly and painfully. Like the US, I can be a good friend....like the US, you wouldn't want me as an enemy
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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#11
Frank> I won't weep for the Chechen islamofascists either.
I will weep for the Chechen secular democrats however -- the ones who btw, supported the US in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
#12
I read Robert Pelton Young's book, with one section devoted to Chechnya. It is an exceedingly dangerous place, especially for freelancers. Muslim extremists keep the pot boiling, ambushing Russian troops, many of whom are low motivation draftees. When the Russians get boomed, they hit back with a heavy hand. Precision strikes and munitions are not part of the vocabulary. The just plain joes and jane Chechens seem to try to stay out of the way, so there is not alot of cooperation in IDing terrorists that come ones way. I see no hope in Chechnya until the source of funding that keeps the Chechnya pot a-boiling is dried up.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/13/2004 13:54 Comments ||
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#13
Aris, I'm no fan of what the Russians have done in Chechnya (if for no other reason than that it's ineffective, as can be seen from the fact that the war is still ongoing), but I think you have to concede at the absolute least that a sizeable chunk of the Chechen "rebels" (i.e. those led by Basayev) have definitely drank their Islamist Kool Aid. Read the interview with Amir Ramzan - they want to set up their own little empire in the Caucasus, which is precisely why Basayev and Khattab invaded Dagestan in 1999 and started this damned war to begin with. Since then, they and the various thugs under their command have fought with no concern whatsoever for human life. Remember all those bombings in Grozny that were killing 50-100 civilians a pop? Who do you think those civilians were? Fellow Chechens in many case.
You once asked why we Western warhawks like Putin so much, at least on this issue. The answer is because the difference between the Chechen Killer Korps under Basayev and al-Qaeda under Binny is basically one of semantics. That's why there were Chechen at Mazar-e-Sharif or Kunduz and why they're now hanging out in northern Pakistan. Similarly, it's the same reason why the late Abu Walid was kin to 3 of the 9/11 hijackers. Nor is this a problem just for Americans, either - it's Basayev's jackboots who are now supervising the training of the next generation of al-Qaeda's Euromob contingent and as soon as they get through larval stage they will come back to Europe to perpetrate terrorist attacks - just as the French, Spanish, and Italian governments have apparently discovered.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 14:11 Comments ||
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#14
Dan> Basayev's an Islamofascist terrorist, yes.
But he's not the end-all-be-all of the Chechen side of the war.
#15
I agree. The question then becomes just how separated the only other major rebel leader Maskhadov is from Basayev. For a long time, I was more than willing to buy into the notion that Maskhadov represented the sane Chechen side in the struggle, but when he declared (unless he's since retracted?) that he was setting up his little Supreme Islamic Emirate in the Caucasus he's not an individual that I'm too terribly inclined to trust. Kadyrov (the late Elder and the Younger) are both basically gangsters, Zakayev is likewise a nut, so where exactly does that leave us as far as Chechen leaders are concerned? I guess that's part of my problem on this one.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 14:42 Comments ||
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#16
aris - instead of wasting energy badgering us simple americans about chechnya and russia you should be convincing your euro brothers to get some balls and stand up to the bear...in the long run this will be a european problem...20 years from now the world will be based around three poles of power and if the euros do not stand up that european pole will originate in moscow..
the EU needs to get it's collective head out of it's ass.. we will not rush to save them again...so they had better stop whinning about kyoto and american unitlaterlism and do something for thier own security.. they have killed nato and the un..you will be own your own.
but you are right we have no sympathy for muslims and i really do not think this will change.
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 16:07 Comments ||
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#17
Unfortunately, I think Dan is right: even a President Kerry (PTUI!) would not rush in to save Europe if somehow Europe were to be threatened in the near future. NATO won't work, the UN won't matter, and Euro defense forces, individually and collectively, are in a sad state.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/13/2004 16:28 Comments ||
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#18
Why else do you think I'd been so furious at UK when it vetoed all plans for a common defense pact in the European constitution, even one that wouldn't be binding towards UK at all?
Because NATO won't work, and the UN won't matter, and currently the Euro defense forces, individually and collectively, are in a sad state.
But back then, I was the only one ranting here with my anger towards the UK for that "red line" of its -- those that replied to me atleast were seeing a European defense pact only as a threat against the USA and NATO, not as something that would actually help DEFEND Europe.
#19
Dan Darling> "that he was setting up his Supreme Islamic Emirate in the Caucasus"
I hadn't heard that -- the constitution in the Chechen government's site atleast still describes a secular democratic government with separation between state and religion. And the word Islam isn't mentioned once.
#20
Why else do you think I'd been so furious at UK when it vetoed all plans for a common defense pact in the European constitution, even one that wouldn't be binding towards UK at all?
Yeah, it's the UK's fault!
They spend more per capita on defense than any other nation in Europe, but it's their fault Europe doesn't have a defense policy or defense forces.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
06/13/2004 17:04 Comments ||
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#21
I don't care how ignorant you are. Once again I'm offering a plain fact: Most EU countries wanted a defense policy, Denmark didn't want one and thus chose to opt out but not hinder the other nations, UK didn't want one AND THUS FORBID THE OTHER NATIONS FROM GOING AHEAD WITH IT.
Because it would interfere with NATO or some such crap.
Look it up you idiot.
They spend more per capita on defense than any other nation in Europe
I was about to say that *Greece* spends more per capita on defense than any other nation in Europe, but this page:
#22
Sometimes, Aris, you're dumb as shit. You're furious at the UK (that'd be continental furious I take it - all bark, no bite - a joke) because the UK actually takes its defence seriously, and doesn't want to get tied to an attempt by our European neighbours to spend even less on defence, and at the same time distance themselves further from the only power that can protect them at all - the US. Moronic anti-Americanism and its compliment, fantasy pan-Europeanism, are the reason NATO, as you say, won't work.
#25
Bulldog> Oh, I see: Europe must deal with its own defense because NATO won't work, and NATO won't work because Europe wants to deal with its own defense.
You know you lie when you say it's about UK not wanting to get "tied" to a defense pact. It wouldn't have been tied, the same way that Denmark wouldn't be tied. THEY COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO OPT OUT. Britain could have chosen to deal with it same as it dealt with the EURO, meaning NOT GET INVOLVED BUT NOT STOP THE OTHER NATIONS EITHER.
So stop with your deceptions, you can't have it both ways. Before World War II, France and UK made a pact to defend Poland. Nowadays UK PREVENTS France and all the rest of the nations to make a pact to defend each other in the case of military aggression.
Why? My own guess is that UK is acting like a traitorous backstabbing saboteur that WANTS the Europe Union to be powerless to defend its member states in the face of military aggression. It's the simplest theory that fits all the known FACTS.
Really? How so? The simple article in the constitution that'd say that countries could sign onto an agreement to defend each other in the case of military agression -- how would it interfere with NATO? Unless it was a NATO member state itself that was doing the agressing?
I mean, if NATO-member Turkey invaded EU-member Greece or Cyprus, yeah that'd *definitely* interfere with NATO. And it'd be a good thing too. But how would it interfere with NATO otherwise? Put it plainly for me.
Remember -- we are not talking about parallel command structures or whatever. We are talking about a simple article of mutual support that the UK nonetheless opposed even when it wouldn't be binding to it.
#27
My mistake; I was confused by the UK having the only European military worth spit. I should have realized that piss-ant nations can spend a lot of cash, in proportion, without getting much more than a glorified police force.
Nowadays UK PREVENTS France and all the rest of the nations to make a pact to defend each other in the case of military aggression.
Yeah. Sure. It's those damned Brits.
That EU sure looks like a good idea, doesn't it?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
06/13/2004 17:32 Comments ||
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#28
And the simplest explanation for your conclusion? Paranoia. Paranoid Anglophobia?
You know as well as I do a European defence force would require the UK's membership to be of any significance. Britain doesn't think a European defence for would be in any way superior to NATO, that's why we object to it.
#30
"Greece is first in military expenditures in the EU, when counted as a percentage of GDP."
Too bad the GDP of Greece is only $27.57, leaving the armed forces $12.84.
Gee, for someone who was *"never going to post on RB again"*, Akris Catshit, you sure are prolific and back to arguing unsuccessfully with good, honest RBers over nothing again, too, which is supposedly why you left the other 2-3 times.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 17:40 Comments ||
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#31
Bulldog> Try and dance around the issue, kiddo, but you keep on trying to ignore the simple fact -- the simple statement of the possibility of a mutual support in the case of attack and UK OPPOSED IT.
No need for a parallel structure.
No need for a single defense force.
No need for UK itself to be bound at all. Nothing that would affect UK itself.
And UK opposed it. Because it knew it wouldn't have itself any use for such a treaty, because no country could militarily attack UK unless it first passed through the entirety of Europe. It would only help to make the border nations feel more secure. Countries like Poland, the Baltics, Greece, Cyprus. Such a pact would deal with the threat of a reemerging Russia or a backsliding Turkey.
And UK opposed it. UK opposed it even though it didn't even need to be a part of it.
#33
Yeah, civilised people don't shoot British officers stationed in Greece when furious at the UK, if that's what you mean. And I'm a civilised person.
And WTF is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to present the actions of Greek murderers as evidence that Greeks can have 'bite'? Scum sucks - it does't bite.
How exactly would you have wanted my fury's "bite" to be expressed? My bark is all I have morally available.
Try not to take things so personally. That'd be a start. Spouting off about your fury at the big, bad, United Kingdom because it pissed on your parade comes across as a bit pathetic.
What the fuck was the "all bark no bite" supposed to mean? I saw it as you only seeing strength in feelings when accompanied by violence and murder. Or did it have no meaning at all?
"Spouting off about your fury"
Oh, so it was all about choosing the expression "furious" rather than the expression "mightily pissed off by golly" that got you annoyed? It was merely a lexical dispute?
#35
I didn't dodge the issue, Aris - such treaties outwith NATO were/are at best redundant. They only serve to diminish the defensive capabilities of Europe by marginalising the US. The US is, to all intents and purposes, Europe's defence guarantor. Got it?
Because it knew it wouldn't have itself any use for such a treaty, because no country could militarily attack UK unless it first passed through the entirety of Europe.
#36
I can't see countries like Poland, with a relatively minuscule defense budget, being a part of both NATO and a European defense force. They would have to choose between the US as an ally, and Europe. Considering the substantial anti-American sentiment in Poland, for example, perhaps the latter choice would be better for them.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/13/2004 17:58 Comments ||
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#37
Bulldog, Thank the Lord that the "special relationship" is better and closer than ever!
I still get goosebumps and cry when I hear Baroness Thatcher's eulogy to President Reagan.
And it was such an honor to us and Reagan that she, the Blairs and Prince Charles came to Reagan's funeral.
Baroness Thatcher may be out of power, but her legacy, like Reagan's, will live forever, and like that other larger-than-life PM in wartime Winston Churchill, she is a colussus in the Free world.
What makes Britain great? God's will and his blessings like Margaret Thatcher (and I suspect the Queen is a pretty great lady, too).
God Save the Queen and the British PM!
And your squaddies are doing a great job in Iraq, too.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 17:59 Comments ||
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#38
Poland is anti-American? Didn't realise that, are you sure about that Rafael?
I suppose if Poland had to choose between NATO and an EU force they'd have to weigh up how both alliances have worked in the past.
Let's see the report cards;
NATO; Kept the peace in Europe for nearly 50 years, resisted the expansion efforts of a highly-militaristic, totalitarian, nuclear-armed foe. Over these 40+ years, vast numbers of American soldiers were stationed at forward bases in Europe to deliberately act as a 'tripwire' that would trigger US intervention in any future war. The US also put it's own cities at risk of nuclear annihilation to protect the cities in Western Europe.
European efforts. Bosnia, Let's stop there shall we?
Cue Aris with the well worn mantra that there's no EU force because the UK won't let the Europeans have one.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
06/13/2004 18:12 Comments ||
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#39
Aris - you blame the US and UK for the failure of EU common defense force - what a load of crap. The US has every right to block the EU defense force as it stands. Due to the fact that it would take away from NATO (which as it stands today is still an organization). We are obligated to contribute a certain percantage as are the European members. If the euros were really serious they would either totally disolve NATO (Which the pussie's will not - it is the only institution which keeps America committed to Europe. And they know they need us more than we need them) or put up the monies for NATO and a common EU defense force. But that would entail guns over butter and with the current welfare state of most european countries, politically this is impossible. Not too mention the national/culture instincts which will not allow this (just look at the franco-german brigade). Europe is trully in a sorry state - culturally, politically and militarily. So stop blamming others and take a hard look at your own expendintures (especially Greece - who doens't even want to pay what's needed on the olympics). In this regard your no better than a third world country.
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 18:14 Comments ||
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#40
The US is, to all intents and purposes, Europe's defence guarantor. Got it?
Let me quote what some other people have said in this thread:
the EU needs to get it's collective head out of it's ass.. we will not rush to save them again...so they had better stop whinning about kyoto and american unitlaterlism and do something for their own security..
"even a President Kerry (PTUI!) would not rush in to save Europe if somehow Europe were to be threatened in the near future."
So, what is it Bulldog? Can we depend on the USA to save us, in which case I can urge my fellow Greeks to simply abolish our army, we have no need of it? Or can't we so depend on it?
NATO can be ended at a mere word by a US president. He can say the word and NATO's gone. I'd rather not put all my eggs in such a fragile basket. I'd rather put my eggs in several baskets one of which is knit with economical, political and diplomatic ties and whose survival many more people desire and want than the survival of NATO.
Falklands?
Ah, yes, forgot about that. But quite unlikely to occur again.
Rafael> The defense force is a *different* though related issue to the one we're discussing of the simple mutual defense pact, which wouldn't need Poland to offer forces except in the case of an actual attack on a member state.
#41
Tony, Dan> You STILL fail to understand the difference between a simple mutual defense article that says "we will rush to your aid if you are attacked" and a standing defense force that wouldn't actually remove any forces from anywhere.
You STILL fail to understand the difference between a simple mutual defense article that says "we will rush to your aid if you are attacked" that wouldn't actually remove any forces from anywhere, and a standing defense force.
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 18:21 Comments ||
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#44
Krapsaris, you have *got* to stop drinking a bottle of ouzo and then going out in the midday Greek sun!
NATO is not going to be ended at the "mere word" of an American president!
No American president would speak this "word."
NATO is our baby.
I don't know if the U.S. would defend Greece (I personally wouldn't count on it), but I'd put my money on America way before I would anyone else.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 18:21 Comments ||
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#45
oops! Tongue-in-cheek! :-)~ lol
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/13/2004 18:22 Comments ||
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#46
Jen - I think the special relationship is still very much in tact, despite all the popular nonsense that's happened in relation to Iraq. Long may it last! Of course it's an honour to be a such close friend and ally of the US, but it's also frustrating to see so much ignorance and hostility towards the US from other countries, particularly European ones, which have no excuse for such sentiment.
Aris, perhaps your semantics let you down months ago when you wrote something along the lines of: 'I hate, hate, hate the UK.' You meant 'I have occasional cause to feel somewhat upset by, have occasional cause to feel somewhat upset by, have occasional cause to feel somewhat upset by the UK', I suppose?. You've expressed your hatred for the UK enough times now for people to appreciate that your choice of words is fully intentional. Ironic for someone who claims to reject 'nationalism' regarding his own country, don't you think? If you demand I find the link to that quote, I'll do it tomorrow - I'm off now...
Posted by: Evert V. in NL ||
06/13/2004 18:26 Comments ||
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#48
Falklands?
Ah, yes, forgot about that. But quite unlikely to occur again.
BINGO!!!
There's a difference between words and deeds. Teeth, and gums. Myriad treaties, and troopships. All the agreements in Brussels couldn't save Europe's butt from a mosquito bite.
#49
Poland is anti-American? Didn't realise that, are you sure about that Rafael?
Same situation as in Spain, roughly. About 50% want Polish troops out of Iraq. The current government appears to be unpopular, though perhaps in the same way that Blair is unpopular in the UK: domestic issues play the major role, but Iraq is not far behind.
Poland is also virulently anti-semitic. And of course, that automatically means they are anti-American (by association).
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/13/2004 18:32 Comments ||
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#50
"perhaps your semantics let you down months ago when you wrote something along the lines of: 'I hate, hate, hate the UK.'"
Well, I pretty much totally despise the role UK's playing in European politics, yeah. The way many people here despise France, except France didn't actually *manage* to prevent USA from doing anything it wanted to do, so the rest of you are hating France on principle, while I'm hating UK on specifics: the UK has managed to prevent lots and lots of things that the rest of the EU has wanted to do.
So I see myself as much more justified.
USA is doing more good in the world than evil, but I'm not at all certain I could say the same about the UK. Not when it wants to let all the smaller eastern nations fully and completely dependant on NATO for their defense.
All the agreements in Brussels couldn't save Europe's butt from a mosquito bite.
All of NATO didn't manage to prevent Cyprus from being divided. But it entered the EU and it also became reunified again.
And had it had some security insurances from UN (which Russia vetoed) or from a EU defense pact (which as I said, UK prevents them to existing) the reunification might have succeeded.
#52
There's no dealing with you, Krapsaris, because you're a pro-Turk Greek.
In fact, you take the contrarian position on every issue.
NO U.N. anything could guarantee shit as you should know only too well by now.
They are irrelevant, as President Bush said in October of 2002.
Once again, you've hijacked another Rb thread and about issues that have nothing to do with the subject of the news story.
Congratulations.
Rafael, I wouldn't count Poland out yet--some of them haven't forgotten about being Soviet (and before that Nazi) slaves.
I happened to have seen Lech Welesa paying his respects to President Reagan and there is a stronger element in Poland that is pro-U.S. and pro-Freedom than there is anti-war and certainly larger than the anti-Semites.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 18:53 Comments ||
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#53
Aris - i do understand what a mutual defense pact is. the US does and will committ to it's agreements (as long as they are active- which i do not give NATO more than 10 years)..we have defended europe for 50 years (remember that soviet bear?? or those Greek commies Truman helped you with...short memory??)..the EU needs to understand what it means, thier response after 9-11 invoking article V was pathetic and all showboating. what have they done? they did not go to afganistan until the talibs were gone and still have been pussie's in thier actions there..bickering and holding up mutual action..The Euro's want the cake and the ice-cream. American politics (especially if we are attacked on our homeland again and a continued pathetic EU response) will not tolerate this one-way relationship for decades to come.
Aris you did not read my post - the EU does not have the will to create a true defense force. like i said put up the monies...which is not happening and will not. either dissolve NATO or put up the money for NATO obligations and a true EU defense force with all the capabilities of an army with global reach (so you do not have to depend on us stupid Americans). Which would mean cutting social programs at home - back to the point of political will.
Jen - I would not be so confident about a US and NATO. NATO is on it's last breath....The euro's have effectively killed it..20 years from now there will be no NATO. Unless the EU changes drastically and actually stands side by side with us agaisnt our common enemies. If NATO is soley for European defense it is dead from an American perspective. It will just take a few years for this to sink into our collective concience.
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 18:57 Comments ||
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#54
the EU does not have the will to create a true defense force. like i said put up the monies...
Dan, you silly. The EU has far more important priorities, such as implimenting Kyoto, so it can wreck their industrial base before they can spend money on militar...
Oh wait...
That won't work, will it?
With an industrial based wrecked by Kyoto, Eurostan won't be able to make its own military hardware. They will be defenseless. Sorta like what Isamists want.
Sooo, the idea is to blame the UK for the lack of a modern military force, and not the priorities that are actually killing the concept of mutual defense of Eurostan, right, Aris?
Is that when I spoke about the threat that a backsliding Turkey would pose to Greece and Cyprus? Or when I said that Turkey is not yet ready for the EU?
#56
Badanov, you have admitted yourself a troll. Why should I allow you to bait me again? There's no federal taxation in the Eurozone -- UK opposes it even if wouldn't affect UK itself. There's no defense pact -- UK opposes it even if it wouldn't affect UK itself.
Those are facts. Your claims that EU wouldn't have the political will to honour such a pact are just your self-serving non-disprovable hypotheses -- but I've offered you facts instead. Blair's UK has opposed these things.
So the one thing we know for certain is that Blair's *UK* doesn't have the will for such a pact.
#57
Dan, agreed on NATO.
We've just spent a week lookling back on the fall of the USSR as effected by Reagan, the Great Liberator, which NATO was designed to protect Europe from, so now that the Iron Curtain has fallen, we need to reformulate our European forces and alliances.
And we're redeploying our forces in Germany, so we should deal with NATO.
A new pan-Europe defense force based on the "New Europe" would be more appropriate to the 21st Century.
I imagine we're waiting to see how these EU elections and that EU constitution work out (or don't work out, as will be the case).
"Pro-truth Greek," Krapsaris? You wouldn't know the truth if if bit what I susect is your large, swarthy and pimply Greek ass.
(Ewwwwww. Just grossed myself out!)
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 19:17 Comments ||
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#58
Aris Crapulous, badanov is anything but a troll.
And the UK doesn't want to surrender their many sovereign rights to the EU (Union of Soviet Socialist European Slaves)!
Britain has nothing to gain and eveything to lose by submitting to full enslavement under the EU.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/13/2004 19:21 Comments ||
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#59
Jen> Britain has nothing to gain and eveything to lose by submitting to full enslavement under the EU.
I don't want them to submit to anything. I want them to leave the EU and so escape the "enslavement" we want to impose them, etc, etc.
#60
just what does britian have to gain? besides trade? i would love to hear from our UK friends who post here? comming from a greek it does not hold water for me....
Bandov - now that is funny but true. i am for one am glad we never signed on to kyoto....our economy will never be dictated by a UN gonverning council - at least as long as i can vote!
Posted by: Dan ||
06/13/2004 19:50 Comments ||
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#61
Aris:
In case you're curious, here is the article in question that describes Maskhadov and his shift from secular democrat to Islamonut. More on that here and here.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
06/13/2004 19:52 Comments ||
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#62
So I see myself as much more justified.
Hypocrite.
See? I knew your hypocrisy would rear its ugly head soon enough.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
06/13/2004 19:59 Comments ||
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#63
Robert> I wonder if we have different definitions for what "hypocrisy" is. I thought that hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another, or attacking other people for doing the things you do yourself.
What's *your* definition? Because I've yet to make it fit with anything I did.
Dan Darling> Thanks for the links. Those were before I had discovered Rantburg, and so I hadn't seen those newsitems.
Does sound strange to me. I knew that Maskhadov tolerated Basayev, but I saw it as a marriage of convenience (and desparation) given how all the press releases I've seen coming from his (rebel) government seemed to cultivate a secular democratic profile, which among other things supported the USA against Iraq: http://www.chechnya-mfa.info/more_press.php
As a very minor sidepoint the last link you offered about "using martyrs" doesn't seem necessarily advocation of Islamic terrorism however -- the Japanese Kamikazi pilots weren't terrorists either. It's the target that matters (civilian or military) in determining whether an action is terrorist or not, not whether the attacker booms himself.
#64
Dan,
Apart from a mountain of regulations from Brussels, not much.
Oh, some people have bought cheap houses in France and Spain.
The UK Independance party has made major strides in the EU elections that we've just had. The UKIP wants us out of the EU and got 18% of the vote (9/11 regions declared). The Tories got 28% of the vote, and they're not too keen on Europe either. That's 46% of the people in this country wanting either nothing to do with Europe or a lot less to do with Europe. You may well get your wish Aris, and it's my fondest desire to give it to you. Then you can fund your ineffectual EU defence force - but you'll need to get rid of the social charter and the 35 hour week (Ok, France will have to do that) and a whole host of other things that bleed the Eurocoffers dry.
We'll just take back our 17.5% VAT (Eurotax) back, get rid of 250,000 EU-inspired regulations and start to motor ahead again. And we'll *still* sell loads of things to Europe, because under WTO rules, the EU won't be able to stop us.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
06/13/2004 20:18 Comments ||
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#65
Tony> You keep on speaking about defense forces, when I'm talking about defense pacts.
#66
No, not intentional. The fact remains though, that a defence pact that doesn't include NATO (a tried and tested alliance) would be superfluous.
Rather than create a new defence pact, why not spend more money on countries existing defence forces (and hence the existing pact, ie NATO) and work to change the NATO charter to allow more leeway in how the force is used to address European issues?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
06/13/2004 20:53 Comments ||
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#67
Ah, here we go: Greece is first in military expenditures in the EU, when counted as a percentage of GDP...United Kingdom is even further down in this listing.
That's a bit misleading, Aris. According to World Bank:
Germany 1,984,095 million
United Kingdom 1,566,283 million
France 1,431,278 million
Greece 132,284 million
According to the www.nationmaster.com site you referred to, the United Kingdom spent about 2.3 percent of its GDP on defence, or 31.7 billion, Greece spent about 4.4 percent, or 6.12 billion.
The UK's spending is still five times greater than that of Greece. I didn't look up Germany and France's percentage due to time constraints.
#68
Pappy> It's not misleading, hopefully everyone knows that UK and France have each more than 5 times the population of Greece. And Germany has more than 8 times the population of Greece.
Per Capita and as percentage of GDP I said, per capita and as percentage of GDP I meant. Using *those* criteria, more is being spent on military by Greece than by the UK, unlike what Robert Crawford claimed who simply guessed (wrongly) UK to be spending more per capita.
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