Article

2004-06-13 Home Front: WoT

Prison Conversion May Have Saved Nichols

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2004-06-13 12:04:09 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 ultimately, however, death will be imposed, by an authority higher than us. He'll have a lot to answer to. I still wouldn't mind a "Dahmer" incident though....

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-13 12:09:42 AM|| 2004-06-13 12:09:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Nichols possibly repentant? Now how about OBL(If he still lives), Saddam, Sadr, Zawhari(sp?), Yasser, Zahar, etc. repent? Things less probable have happened before.

Posted by Korora 2004-06-13 12:22:45 AM|| [http://basementburrow.blogspot.com] 2004-06-13 12:22:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The state prosecution, staged in an attempt to secure the death penalty at a cost expected to soar to $10 million, ended with the same sentence Nichols received in federal court six years ago: life.

Which is a hell of a lot more than 161 (one hundred and sixty-one, count them) other people got from Nichols. I hope he is forced to request solitary confinement due to his unforeseen "popularity."

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 1:27:50 AM|| 2004-06-13 1:27:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 As much as I would think this mass murderer deserved a state-given death, I have to grit my teeth and say "Good" to the decision of the court. And that goes to Osama as well. My hope there is that he resists violently... (for which I will ask forgiveness and try to change)

Unlike Kerry, I am not going to be a hypocrit when it comes to Church doctrine. Death judgement of a bound man belongs in God's hands, not in man's imperfect ones.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-13 2:10:30 AM|| 2004-06-13 2:10:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 OldSpook, Nichols voluntarily bound his own hands when he abetted McVeigh in fabricating the truck bomb. No one but himself brought this upon his head and it was entirely by his choice alone. Those who live by the maliciously wielded sword should have every chance to greet it at the end.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 2:19:44 AM|| 2004-06-13 2:19:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 True enough about Nichols binding his own hands. But if he has genuinely repented...

Then there is the whole problem of a government killing an unarmed helpless person in its custody. From a CATHOLIC (not a societal) point of view, its wrong - the government and humans in it make too many errors. The risk of even one innocent human life is too large a price to pay in Church doctrine - its also why we oppose abortion, unjust wars, etc.

re: wars. I am thankful that the opposition to the US efforts in Iraq are *not* official policy - there was not enough evidence to make a ruling on the Iraq war, and my belief is that over time, the Church will come to realizes that it was and is a just war, however imperfectly it might be waged at times. [it saves me from a very serious and hard look at my faith and what I believe in this world].

As for nichols and the death penalty - I'm glad the jury saw fit to not to decide kill him. It saved me a ahrd time with my CHurch as well - not enough to separate me from the Church, but cerainly uncomfortable with my undeniable initial internal satisfaction of that bastard" getting his due, paid in kind". It would have been very hard to honestly repent and get myself back into communion with the Church. Unlike that hypocrit Kerry, I'd have had to deny myself Eucharist until I had that settled between me and God.

Life without parole. Seems fair in the absence of a death penalty. Only problem is that lawyers have taken restitution out of it for a large part.

Hard labor should still be part of the sentence. Making gravel for concrete to rebuild that which he helped destroy. Making money and sending it all, no matter how small to the families of his victims.

There should be restitution, no matter how small, and it should take 100% of Nichol's time and energy to provide it. No slack, just work, eat, sleep, and more work with the fruits of his labor returned to his victims. He should have no joy for the rest of his life, nor any rest other that that which is needed to keep him alive and healthy enough to work.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-13 4:06:34 AM|| 2004-06-13 4:06:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 ."We all agreed that what went on in the jury room would stay in the jury room," he said.

It seems to me that the Jailhouse Conversion defense is speculation on the reporter's part.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-06-13 8:21:01 AM|| 2004-06-13 8:21:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Agree with Frank. Who cares if they kill him or not. He'll never get out and prison will be hell on earth fro him anyway. Sure, a bullet is cheaper, but I like the idea of keeping him around so he can help fill in the details of what REALLY happened later on down the road. History will want to record it and the American people deserve to know.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 9:43:16 AM|| 2004-06-13 9:43:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 If he were repentant and truly remorseful for what he had done, don't you think he would have 1.pleaded guilty and 2.described, in detail, how the plans were hatched, who was involved and exactly what happened? If he is truly answering to his maker and not simply engaging in legal strategy, he should have declared what he believes in his heart -- that he is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

Posted by PlanetDan 2004-06-13 9:46:49 AM|| 2004-06-13 9:46:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 that's true PlanetDan - very true. But why not give him as much time as possible to get to that point? Once he's dead...the information dies with him. Nothing lost by waiting and hoping that he'll give it up one day...or that we'll have non-torture methods of sucking it out his brain.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 9:54:22 AM|| 2004-06-13 9:54:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 There should be restitution, no matter how small, and it should take 100% of Nichol's time and energy to provide it. No slack, just work, eat, sleep, and more work with the fruits of his labor returned to his victims. He should have no joy for the rest of his life, nor any rest other that that which is needed to keep him alive and healthy enough to work.

Well put, Old Spook, and Amen to that.

Posted by badanov 2004-06-13 10:17:31 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-06-13 10:17:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 As a Catholic as well, OldSPook, I have no issues with the death penalty. Name one innocent man put to death, especially since the advent of DNA testing. Catholic catechism does not preclude a society from putting to death those elements that would destroy innocent life. Bound and harmless? Apparently you don't remember California's former Chief Justice Rose Bird who's court overturned ALL death penalty sentences based on ideology. Who can say some of those aren't already scheduled for parole under a repeated judicial disaster?

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-13 11:04:53 AM|| 2004-06-13 11:04:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 First and foremost, OldSpook, your forthrightness is both deeply appreciated and also quite refreshing at this board. You took the time to consciously spell out a large part of the reasoning that surrounds your own decision, something not everyone is either willing or (sometimes) even capable of doing here abouts.

While I do not concur with some of what you put forth, I cannot dispute your right to such an opinion, especially when it is obvious that you have given it so much honorable thought.

Instead, I can only point to what has been said so well here and by others:

#9 If he were repentant and truly remorseful for what he had done, don't you think he would have 1.pleaded guilty and 2.described, in detail, how the plans were hatched, who was involved and exactly what happened? If he is truly answering to his maker and not simply engaging in legal strategy, he should have declared what he believes in his heart -- that he is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

PlanetDan, gets to the core of why I find Nichols' position wanting. Any measure of Nichols' true faith is between him and his God, but it is up to us, we the living, to estimate the worth of his ostensible conversion.

The only reason Nichols is "bound and harmless" is because there was a body of valid evidence pointing directly to his complicity in America's worst domestic terror attack. Nichols' participation in that atrocity was voluntary and without coercion of any sort. Our nation has not bound him and neither was he helpless, save due to his willing participation in an monstrous crime against humanity. Through such intentional mass murder Nichols rendered himself vulnerable to whatever the law rightfully may impose upon him.

I am obliged to paraphrase Dennis Miller:

"No one ever finds Christ on prom night. Too often it seems that people find Jesus only after they have they have painted themselves into a moral and ethical corner and made a wreck of their own life and, too often, that of many others around them."

While anyone is entitled to obtain faith at any moment of their lives, Nichols' jailhouse conversion smacks of less-than-sincere piety in light of his incomplete confession. Were he to properly follow the Golden Rule, PlanetDan's point would have been unnecessary.

OldSpook, I will repeat how refreshing your candor is and also readily agree how Nichols should enjoy aught but hard labor for his remaining days on earth. Such would only be fitting at the very least. Even though we disagree, I can only admire the openness and courage of your convictions.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 12:30:46 PM|| 2004-06-13 12:30:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "No one ever finds Christ on prom night.

That's pretty self-evident Zenster. It's kind of like saying no one becomes interested in AA during their first bender.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 1:09:08 PM|| 2004-06-13 1:09:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Nichols should burn regardless of his conversion and "repentance." He didn't apologize, he didn't say he's sorry; all he said was that now he's Xtian and he's sure to go to heaven.
It's also not assured that he was spared due to his conversion, but if he was--I'm sorry, but then irrational Xtian sentimentality cost us the last hope for real justice against Nichols.

p.s. just to get my position straight--I think he should have burned gladly if he was sincerely repentant.

Posted by therien 2004-06-13 1:45:58 PM|| 2004-06-13 1:45:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Nichols better watch his six and/or be put up separately in prison, or someone will put a shiv into him and that will be the end of that issue.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-06-13 2:01:53 PM|| 2004-06-13 2:01:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 That's pretty self-evident Zenster. It's kind of like saying no one becomes interested in AA during their first bender.

I find it rather conspicuous that so many "born again" people I've met extoll Christ's virtues yet somehow never connected with them in the midst of beauty and plenty. Instead, they could only manage to see Jesus' worth once they destroyed themselves and the lives of so many others.

To ignore the miraculously beneficent universe we live in only to piss upon it until your life is such a trainwreck that you must surrender up your soul to external hands strikes me as less than inspired. While Christ may have walked amongst the outcasts, far too many people seem to vigorously cast themselves down before finally finding Jesus. That's not much of a recommendation nor does it summon up a lot of pity within me.

The spectacle of Nichols kissing the hem of Christ's robe while still presenting his unrepetent posterior for the devil's delight doesn't cut any ice with me.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 2:04:51 PM|| 2004-06-13 2:04:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Kinda missing the message if you ask me. The chairs at AA are full of alcoholics and the churches are full of self-professed sinners - people seeking grace to save them.

I guess your point is why Christ said it was harder for the rich man to find grace than the poor man. Somehow we've twisted the message of Christianity to the point where Christians are supposed to be the models of piety, rather than self-professed sinners seeking assistance. But..isn't that's like saying that the chairs at AA should be full of people rarely tempted by a drink.

We digress.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 2:39:27 PM|| 2004-06-13 2:39:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 But...that being said, I conceed your point that if McVeigh doesn't truly confess - his conversion is a meaningless sham.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 2:45:33 PM|| 2004-06-13 2:45:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 But...that being said, I conceed your point that if McVeigh doesn't truly confess - his conversion is a meaningless sham.

So why should he granted the least forgiveness, not just by his victims, but by even by Christ? There is no sincerity in such obvious self-serving and pious posturing. I think therien said it best by noting how Nichols should have offered himself up for execution as the only appropriate atonement for his crimes. I surely would have and it is naught but cowardice that Nichols does not, just as with how he withholds the details surrounding his complicity.

I still find it less than impressive that so many people are unable to find inspiration save at the end of a spiritual gun. It does not say a lot about their sort of faith and consecration of spirit. Their own or even that which may be eternal.

B, your own statements about "self-professed sinners" comes perilously close to the notion of original sin. It is an idea I find revolting in the extreme. I realize that this is neither the appropriate time nor place to debate about it, but I am still compelled to clarify.

I will freely grant that Christ's own words about the difficulty a rich man might have in finding grace are absolutely fitting. That so many squander their wealth in profligate fashion before taking the time to absorb what wisdom there is in Christ's teachings constitutes a searing indictment of their reasons for adopting religion.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 3:20:10 PM|| 2004-06-13 3:20:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I'll join the others in voicing my respect for OldSpook's position. I especially salute him as a fellow pro-lifer dedicated to preserving innocent human life.

HOWEVER, McVeigh was, to the best of the court's ability, determined to be GUILTY of MURDER. If he was innocent, then holding him in prison is an outrage that shouldn't stand.

If somebody burned my house down, do they recompense me based on the value of the house BEFORE it burned down, or its value AFTER it burned down? Before, of course. Yet, murder is the only crime where the value of that which is taken is computed on the value AFTER the life was taken. How valuable were the 161 people who died? Zip, as far as the anti-death-penalty people are concerned, NOW that they are dead.

McVeigh can now strut about, declaring, quite justly, that he is worth more than 161 people. If the anti-death-penalty people vigorously deny that, then why are they not acting as if the opposite is true?

Posted by Ptah 2004-06-13 3:36:24 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-06-13 3:36:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Zen, not really familiar with concepts of original sin - so afraid I'll have to pass anyway. I agree with much of what you say, though. But as for McVeigh, if he can truly find it, better late than never, if you ask me. If he can find it, surely there's some hope for me :-)

Posted by B 2004-06-13 3:40:39 PM|| 2004-06-13 3:40:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 How valuable were the 161 people who died? Zip, as far as the anti-death-penalty people are concerned, NOW that they are dead.

Wow. So the people who died are "recompensated" not by being resurrected and restored their lives, but by removing the lives of the people who killed them?

Let me guess -- if you somebody burned your house down, you would feel recompensated not if you were actually given back the value of your house, but if they burned the arsonist's house down instead?

Which of the two comes closest to someone realizing the value of one's house -- or one's life?

Vengeance might make you feel good ofcourse, but you'd still be homeless. It'd not be recompensation. In the case of murder or rape recompensation is simply not possible.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-13 5:02:04 PM|| 2004-06-13 5:02:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 B, I believe we were discussing Terry Nichols. Timmothy McVeigh is currently maintaining a valiant struggle to remain dead.

Aris, it is not so much a matter of recompense or revenge. By their own acts, some criminals nullify their right to continued existence. The threat they represent to society and the cost of housing them for life at public expense is in no way justified.

Abetting the murder of 161 innocent people in a single vicious crime is one of those acts.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 5:50:00 PM|| 2004-06-13 5:50:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 It is generally not a well man that seeks a physician.

Likewise, I had to go through some pretty wrenching self examination before I truly allowed God in to my life. There is not a commandment that I have not violated, excepting how you translate "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

If you treat it literally, then I have violated - in terms of the products of my work (which certainly caused others to die), and also directly with a rifle, and with weapon under my direction during war, and also via an explosive device in a "non-war" combat circumstance.

If you translate that in the original sense of the word, to "murder", then thats the only one that I havent broken.

But be that as it may, I've reached my peace... The great thing about Christianity is that God not only forgives, he completely absolves. God can do the one thing I cannot: forget my sins.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-13 6:43:37 PM|| 2004-06-13 6:43:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 No disrespect EVER meant to OldSpook, I just wanted to convey that there's others who believe AND support the Death Penalty, and the Church isn't calling them out...

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-13 7:07:29 PM|| 2004-06-13 7:07:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Old Spook, your life of service in the military and elsewhere is in the clear with me. I am just sorry I couldn't be there to help you.

Posted by badanov 2004-06-13 7:11:24 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-06-13 7:11:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 It's amazing how nobody has problems with temporal and causal connections when it comes to lost value of property. compensation there is not a problem. But murder someone, and suddenly, how do people act when it comes to the value of human life? AS IF its nothing. Say all you want about how much you VALUE people, aris, it is what you do in response to when they're gone, AND how they went, that determines their REAL value.

Besides, THAT state of affairs would please you quite well, if you thought it necessary to murder someone, no?

Oh, and the Hebrew is quite exact, despite mistranslations.

Posted by Ptah 2004-06-13 7:40:34 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-06-13 7:40:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I must weigh in and say that while I have no personal desire to see Nichols continue to live, the notion of death being at the hands of humans is too dangerous a position for me to endorse.

Name one innocent man put to death, especially since the advent of DNA testing.

Remember, the Titanic was unsinkable too. I know it's cliche, but one must always remember that no matter how much we feel that we have somehow technically overcome human imperfection, it is usually proven to be arrogant and incorrect.

I hope Nichols suffers hard and long and I hope some good can come from him (information, restitution etc). I also agree that his "conversion" doesn't stand up in light of his "unrepentance" (My Christian theology has always linked the two)

Posted by gp 2004-06-13 7:41:49 PM|| 2004-06-13 7:41:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 OldSpook, just a note from a born American to thank you for all the onerous tasks you have performed in our nation's name. You, and all other veterans have my deepest gratitude. May your soul find the lasting peace it so richly deserves.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-13 7:48:22 PM|| 2004-06-13 7:48:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 OldSpook, just a note from a born American to thank you for all the onerous tasks you have performed in our nation's name. You, and all other veterans have my deepest gratitude. May your soul find the lasting peace it so richly deserves

It can't be said often enough and loudly enough.

We are indebted to you for your bravery and your service to our country, and to the cause of freedom. You did the work of the angels, and for that I am grateful.

Posted by badanov 2004-06-13 8:14:38 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-06-13 8:14:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 OS...I agree that "thou shalt not kill" has some translation issues. Look at it this way, you could take it as far as you can't kill to eat meat or even "kill" a blade of wheat! Any way you look at it, we ALL have to kill and consume life (plant or animal) in order to live ....and God watched over many a war and warrior in the Bible after he issued that commandment.

Just like forgive your "debts" really translates into "trespasses" rather than "not necessay to pay me back"....I just think there are some translation issues where you have to fill common sense into the gap. The best you can do is go with what you believe is right.

Zen, right you are.

Posted by B 2004-06-13 8:17:35 PM|| 2004-06-13 8:17:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Say all you want about how much you VALUE people, aris, it is what you do in response to when they're gone, AND how they went, that determines their REAL value.

And to your mind people's real value is determined by whether we shall send more deaths to follow after them? How does that determine anything? You balance lives with lives in your view, and for all I know they could mean equally much or equally *little*.

You are *so* amazed that people see a qualitative difference between material property that can be replaced and human lives that can not, that I'm quite convinced that it's you who don't understant the value of human life.

Most people don't react "as if" human life is without value. They react as if human life is priceless. It's a subtle difference.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-13 8:29:10 PM|| 2004-06-13 8:29:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 While America is a predominantly Christian nation, we do indeed have a separation of Church and State.
(Ironically, our death penalty is based on Judeo-Christian theology itself.)
I think we're looking at a jury nullification problem here.
I'd venture the guess that Nichols' lawyer stuffed the jury with touchy feely Liberal Christians who "feel" (Liberals' only concern) very "bad" about the death penalty.
President Bush, as Texas Governor, was faced with an almost identical problem in the case of Carla Faye Tucker.
Carla, a vicious murderess who said she had an "orgasm" when she murdered people, asked to be spared by Gov. Bush because of her prison conversion.
Then Gov. Bush, upheld the rule of law of the state of Texas.
Carla met her Maker and Judge after lethal injection.
The death penalty isn't on trial here: Terry Nichols is.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-13 8:42:54 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-13 8:42:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Ah. I see the problem now.

Indeed, people are priceless, and I hold that they are that way from conception, and that no other person has the right to unilaterally alter that value in any way. however, I hold that a person's value must be maintained by that person himself. That that person's value can be enhanced or diminished by that person's own acts is a CONSEQUENCE. Liberalism is, at its base, a denial and flight from consequences. You're willing to demand compensation up to a certain point, but when it gets too expensive, you start demanding mercy and clemency as a way to get out of paying for your deeds.

I am not a utilitarian, in that EVERYTHING that a person does affects their value: The President of a nation is more IMPORTANT, but that does not affect their VALUE as a human being. However, I believe it to be a safe bet that what a person does to people DOES affect their value as a person. Mother Teresa had more value than I do, not because my value is less, but that her actions to enhance priceless human lives has increased her intrinsic value. Conversely, those who destroy the priceless lives of others devalue their own lives. They are not worth keeping alive, by virtue of their own actions. I'm sure this calculus makes you uncomfortable, because it's a demand that we all are ACCOUNTABLE, that our actions have CONSEQUENCES, that those consequences must be endured. It's human nature to try to escape those consequences, so I suppose your attempt to carve out a loophole for others in the event you need it yourself in the future is understandable. But not excusable. Justice is the exercise of making sure people benefit from, or suffer from, the consequences of their actions.

It hit me today how silly people are who cite "Thou shalt not Kill" as an anti-death-penalty argument, when that very statement comes from a corpus of law that authorized stoning for adultery and blasphemy in addition to murder, gave specific instructions on how a siege was to be conducted, and directed the genocide of specific nations in a specific geographic area. I don't think God was contradictory, but that perhaps that commandment was directed to individuals as private citizens, and not to the corporate body or its officers, which had broader rights commensurate with broader responsibilities. King David made war numerous times, and was penalized only by not being permitted to build the first Temple. He sends Uriah to his death to take his wife, and he's confronted by the prophet and nearly loses everything as a consequence.

Posted by Ptah 2004-06-14 12:13:05 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-06-14 12:13:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Get ready for a new pan-Arab "fatwa" issuing Islamic clemency for all jihadis in Western prisons who use the "conversion" tactic in order to save their necks.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-14 12:41:48 PM|| 2004-06-14 12:41:48 PM|| Front Page Top

18:07 Anonymous5892
18:15 Bulldog
12:41 ex-lib
12:40 Anonymous4617
12:13 Ptah
08:49 Aris Katsaris
06:29 Howard UK
05:38 Bulldog
05:22 Howard UK
05:20 Bulldog
05:19 Bulldog
05:19 Howard UK
03:56 Bulldog
00:17 GK
00:16 Zenster
23:51 Zenster
23:39 Zenster
23:27 A Jackson
23:26 Zenster
23:24 Phil Fraering
23:12 Phil Fraering
23:09 B
23:09 jackal
23:03 Fred