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2004-09-08 Home Front: WoT
Ananova: Russian vow 'a threat to everyone'
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Posted by tipper 2004-09-08 21:11|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 This guy may be right but he picked the wrong week to have a public peeing contest with Putin.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-08 9:48:08 PM||   2004-09-08 9:48:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 
Russia's threat to target "terrorists anywhere" is a danger to Britain, Europe and the rest of the world, a top Chechen separatist terrorist based in the UK fifth columnist has warned.

Akhmed Zakayev said the vow meant Russia may try to assassinate Chechens wherever they are, regardless of international boundaries.
Chechen Islamist terrorists, anyway.
And he warned that sent out a "very disturbing signal to all civilised countries sucker countries who give us shelter because they're PC idiots".
I suspect his definition of "civilized" is a lot different from mine.

Wanker.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-09-08 9:48:31 PM||   2004-09-08 9:48:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Well, I'm sorry, but I don't want Russians to shoot a Chechen refugee in my street because Putin just happens to declare him a terrorist.
Btw, same goes for Americans, French or others.
If you break the law of my country, you go to jail.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 9:58:40 PM||   2004-09-08 9:58:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 TGA, this is a strong issue for me. I see few alternatives to sending out wetwork teams to begin snuffing the top echalons of jihadist clerics. Because of Islamism's intentionally decentralized and transnational nature, there are few other choices.

Militarily steamrolling Islamist rogue states on a country-by-country basis is simply too time consuming and ridiculously expensive. Time constraints alone make it imperative that the main moutpieces for terrorism begin dying off in significant numbers.

While I certainly understand your discomfort and even dislike of such a notion, I don't see where there's much choice in the matter. I'd certainly welcome your own analysis of how to go about truncating the proponents of terrorism. I think declaring Wahabbism a political idology and thereby stripping it of all religious status would be an excellent starting point. The same may need to go for Salafists as well.

Again, I'd really enjoy hearing your own opinions on this, TGA.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-08 10:15:35 PM||   2004-09-08 10:15:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 When the Russians take over a school in Chechnya or some third country and start massacring children, then I'll give this article some credibility. In the meantime, keep scurrying, you filthy cockroaches.
Posted by Dar  2004-09-08 10:18:18 PM||   2004-09-08 10:18:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 The Chechen's aren't going to get a lot of sympathy from me after their child killing spree.
Posted by Secret Master 2004-09-08 10:19:49 PM||   2004-09-08 10:19:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I think that this Chechen is incorrect. The Russians aren't just threatening Chechens. They are threatening every recalcitrant from Dan unto Beersheba, as it were. Judging from the look on Putin's face, a stoical ex-KGB officer, I would not be surprised if the bad boys are about to see the Russian equivalent of Jihad. I suspect his response will be as dramatic in Russia as George Bush's response was after 9-11. Or, as a friend once said, "I 'spect there's gonna be a WHOLE lot of homicidin' goin' on."
Posted by Anonymoose 2004-09-08 10:26:15 PM||   2004-09-08 10:26:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Zenster, I will not allow foreign hitmen to kill people in Germany at their discretion, period. This is a country where law is upheld for everyone.
What the Russians do in lawless places is not of my concern.
But here in Germany they better not kill anyone. We are not killing Russian mafia members on the Red Square either.
I certainly have no problem with stripping Wahhabis of their "religious protection". But that doesn't mean that KGB killers can kill them at will in my city.
They better not try that.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 10:28:18 PM||   2004-09-08 10:28:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Agree with TGA. But Germany should deport those with ties to Chechen terrorists.
Posted by lex 2004-09-08 10:35:05 PM||   2004-09-08 10:35:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Agreed
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 10:37:22 PM||   2004-09-08 10:37:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Just as Britain should deport Zakaev. Now. Before some KGB guy does something that he shouldn't.
Posted by Fred  2004-09-08 10:38:25 PM||   2004-09-08 10:38:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 And while they are at it, they should deport the whole Al Mujahiroun scum into the Empty Corner.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 10:42:10 PM||   2004-09-08 10:42:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 You are quite clear, TGA, and I cannot continue my own stance without admitting to the hypocrisy of not wanting such American inspired wetwork going on in my own country. What about German teams going after those in your nation who actively foment violent jihad? Does that notion equally offend you?

Sadly, terrorists pervert the rule of law in open societies so as to further their own murderous agendas. One need only examine abu Hamza in Britain for a sterling example. It is becoming increasingly apparent that many European nations largely refuse to clamp down on jihadist clerics. France is a major offender in this. Their harboring of Khomenei effectively helped spawn Hizbollah.

As I mentioned in my first post, time is running short. If major strides are not made towards immediately jailing or eliminating the Islamists, the price will be a terrorist nuclear attack. Between those two options, snuffing the jihadist clerics becomes much more attractive.

I'm glad that we both agree on stripping Wahhabism of its religious status. What other measures do you see as being sufficiently constructive in the short term (i.e. ~5 years or less)?
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-08 10:47:07 PM||   2004-09-08 10:47:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Zenster, those who preach jihad do break German law and should go to jail or be deported. And the legal stance is toughening here. The next minister of the interior will probably be the Bavarian Beckstein (conservative CSU), who is the toughest guy in prosecuting islamists of all shades.
I wish U.S. authorities would take an equal tough stance on U.S. Neo Nazis who publish racial hatred filth hosted on U.S. website claiming "free speech".
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 10:57:19 PM||   2004-09-08 10:57:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 
If you break the law of my country, you go to jail.

Unless you're involved in the planning of 9-11. In which case Germany decides the evidence against you is "tainted" because it may have come from "torture".

Nothing personal, TGA. Just an observation.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-09-08 10:59:59 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-09-08 10:59:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Robert Crawford, you are aware of the fact that this was what the DEFENSE LAWYERS wanted, not the prosecution?
But we indeed observe our own laws. This means that evidence must be real evidence. Not a faxed summary of a "he said" from DoJ. Without any ability to question the witness.
Btw it's not about torture. The U.S. confirmed the use of interrogation techniques (for example sleep deprivation etc.) which are illegal in Germany. Sorry, that's the law. Unless it's changed courts have to follow the law.
It's not "Germany" that decides on evidence btw, it's the court. Since we had a Volksgerichtshof we're rather interested in keeping the two apart.
How's that Moussawi case going over there in Alexandria, Va.?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 11:10:35 PM||   2004-09-08 11:10:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Wouldn't it be gratifying to wake up one morning, turn on the TV, and listen to an anchorperson read the overnight news, and have it be a chronology of unfortunate incidents and violent outcomes that have befallen Islamicist adherents around the world.

Every day, it seems to be western nightclubs being bombed, western truck drivers being beheaded, western jetliners being blown from the sky, western schools being attacked, western train stations being rubbled.

It would really be nice to hear the TV announcers talking themselves hoarse just reading the list of overnight "wet work" achievements.

Explode every Islamacist newspaper office and press bureau worldwide. Show some "before" and "after" gun camera footage with the crosshairs on the Al Jazeera studios.

Create a TV audience that grows weary of seeing 10 fresh madrases go up in flames EVERY DAY for three years.

Read about the wonderful job some clever people did by seeding the world with RPG rounds that explode in place when the RPG trigger is pulled.

I want to see a chronicle of pain and suffering that sweeps the Islamic world and makes Palestine look like summer day camp. I want to see it get so bad that I actually start feeling sorry for the Islamic people of the earth - as their population dwindles away under relentless attrition activity.

I want to hear about Iranian, and Syrian, and North Korean, and Saudi diplomats dying like flies all over the world - from ricin poisoning.

I want every radical Imam on earth to be afraid to leave their residence for fear of following in thr hoofprints of Yassin and Rantisi - vaporized.

Cry havoc .............

Posted by Lone Ranger 2004-09-08 11:11:05 PM||   2004-09-08 11:11:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 This is really quite simple. It is either them or us. I vote to kill them where ever, when ever they are found.
Posted by Douglas De Bono  2004-09-08 11:12:01 PM|| [http://www.DouglasDeBono.com]  2004-09-08 11:12:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I think I've been consistent in voting for new Saudi "picnic accidents" in the desert
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-08 11:12:45 PM||   2004-09-08 11:12:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 This has gone beyond any particular nation's laws and slipped into a simpler Natural Law phase. Those who can, will begin killing terrorists wherever they can find them, and it should be so. Blah blah blah about the murderer's rights .. they forfeited them stabbing 18 month old babies and raping school girls in Russia, not mention 9/11. Kill them in Germany or wherever else they can be put in a scope's sights. Jesus Christ, Europe has become such a sanctuary ... time to ring the bells in that church. TGA, you DON'T want these scum living comfortably and feeling snug in your country. Of course, your point does stand or fall on the hitman being caught, so yes, to a degree, I concur that if they get caught a new career path would be good to consider. I suspect they will not get caught, let alone persued.
Posted by Beau 2004-09-08 11:18:15 PM||   2004-09-08 11:18:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 TGA: I wish U.S. authorities would take an equal tough stance on U.S. Neo Nazis who publish racial hatred filth hosted on U.S. website claiming "free speech".

I don't think we're too worried about it unless the adherents start hurting people. Besides, these organizations are well and truly penetrated. (The old joke was that there were more FBI agents than real Nazis in some of the meetings).

Islamists have gone way beyond hurting people. If they don't pay, we will pay. This is why I had no problem with the Mossad settling accounts for the Black September incident, after Germany released the terrorists.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-08 11:22:17 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-08 11:22:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 ZF: This is why I had no problem with the Mossad settling accounts for the Black September incident, after Germany released the terrorists.

That should have read Munich Olympics massacre, not Black September (which had to do with the Jordanian crushing of a Palestinian uprising).
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-08 11:24:11 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-08 11:24:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Russia will just put their assassins in the police force of western countries, like Saudi does.
Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-09-08 11:26:30 PM||   2004-09-08 11:26:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Beau, there is a lot of things I don't want or tolerate.
But no foreign head of state tells me that he can and will decide to kill people in my country. He will not decide who is a terrorist and who is not. WE will.
Next thing I hear is Fidel Castro declaring Cuban refugees "terrorists" and feels free to assassinate them in Germany.
Sorry, no way.
We all know that the CIA occasionally "removes human problems from our premises"... and we often look the other way.
But don't start bragging about it. And don't get caught red handed.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 11:27:52 PM||   2004-09-08 11:27:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I wonder if they are afraid that the Russians will start targeting the Mainstream Media - after all they are knowing allies of the islamist terrorists.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-08 11:29:48 PM||   2004-09-08 11:29:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Zhang Fei, the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi site IS hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death.
The Wahhabi preacher kills no one except with his words, too.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 11:31:19 PM||   2004-09-08 11:31:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 I wish U.S. authorities would take an equal tough stance on U.S. Neo Nazis who publish racial hatred filth hosted on U.S. website claiming "free speech".

I could not agree with you more, TGA. The continued bleating from these cretins is nothing more than hate speech and needs to be curtailed. Certain forms of "free" speech are correctly and legally constrained. Nazi propaganda surely should fall into that category.

I think I've been consistent in voting for new Saudi "picnic accidents" in the desert.

To your credit, Frank G, yes you have. You very clearly have kept the finger (which one, I leave for you to choose) pointed at Riyadh.

I don't think we're too worried about it unless the adherents start hurting people.

I disagree, Zhang Fei. American neo-Nazis effectively provide moral support to their counterparts in Germany. We need to smash Nazis wherever they are. We do not need to see them abetting the terrorists and there's speculation that this is already happening. You know, that Jewish hatred thing.

As you can see, TGA, the admittedly biased sentiment shown here isn't exactly in your favor. Germany is already behind the eight ball because of the Hamburg cell. It is incumbent upon your country to make a much more vigorous showing in terms of clipping the terrorists' wings. I can, will and do ask that more gets done about it. Europe comes across as a virtual haven for terrorism. Until there is a sharp departure from this perception, my vote is on the wetwork teams. They can begin in Saudi Arabia, but sooner or later all countries harboring terrorists must get a visit.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-08 11:37:20 PM||   2004-09-08 11:37:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 We all know that the CIA occasionally "removes human problems from our premises"... and we often look the other way.

This is largely what I want, just more pointedly directed at jihadist clerics.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-08 11:40:01 PM||   2004-09-08 11:40:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Zenster, I will just say that:

There was a time in 1946, when the Narodnyi Komissariat Vnutrennikh Del (or NKVD) decided who was a "terrorist" in Germany and who was not.

Never again.

And Zenster, the "Hamburg Cell" was secretly plotting in Germany. It was openly learning to fly planes without the landing part in Florida. And Mr Atta got a U.S. visa six months after he flew his plane into the WTC.

I hope you never find out that the next attack on America was planned and executed by a group in Detroit. Then we'll talk again about vigorous efforts.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-08 11:44:19 PM||   2004-09-08 11:44:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Zhang Fei, the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi site IS hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death. The Wahhabi preacher kills no one except with his words, too.

German Nazis who read English language material? OK. I will not abridge our right to read whatever we want just to prevent some neo-Nazi from getting ideas. The proper response is to kill the people who commit these kinds of acts. Unfortunately, Germany doesn't have the death penalty. We're not going to help Germany make up for its lack of judgment by banning inflammatory materials. Sorry - that's why we're Americans and you're German.

Nazism is a spent force. Not so with Islam, which not only preaches violence, but funds it across the globe. This is why it deserves to be treated with a mailed fist, not kid gloves.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-08 11:53:08 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-08 11:53:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I agree with TGA, and point out that his stance is the US stance as well: anyone who does a hit on someone in the US will be prosecuted for murder. The US won't stage hits in other countries that have a government and legal system, instead we'll work with those governments to have terrorists arrested and tried (or extradited). But we're free to hunt down terrorists in lawless lands (e.g., Somalia, Afghanistan).
Posted by Steve White  2004-09-08 11:57:09 PM||   2004-09-08 11:57:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Nope, nope sorry TGA, we are keeping our free speech...what you suggest is like saying if you outlaw guns, then that will keep criminals from having guns...when really the criminals still have guns, and the law abiding citizens are left with no way to protect themselves from those criminals.
Look at Islam for example, the jihadis and islamists will still spew and blow shit up, and the law abiding folks will be powerless to speak out because they will be scared to criticise Islam for fear of being arrested for 'hate-speech'.
And that is exactly what is happening in Australia and some European countries.
So you will eventually end up with a frustrated society who will seek to go underground to criticise Islam, then you will have some people who want to radicalise these groups because, hell youre faced with a jihad against you, and you cant even say anything about it, some will decide to take matters into their own hands.
Criminalising free speech is a damn good way to make a bad problem worse in the situation we are facing.
Plus, if someone is a terrorist, or a nazi, or a KKK person, etc., then I hope they feel free to let us all know that about themselves. Then we know who to keep an eye on. ;)
Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-09-09 12:02:02 AM||   2004-09-09 12:02:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 I agree Steve... I doubt a German hit sqad would find much sympathies in the U.S. either.

Zhang Fei, that's an interesting double standard you profess here. Btw those sites publish in English AND German.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:04:27 AM||   2004-09-09 12:04:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 I have a bone to pick with your argument TGA. Every day multiple women are brutally raped and murdered. Every day, multiple women and children disappear, never to be seen again. Yet I can go to my local Blockbuster and rent any number of movies that graphically depict, if not glorify brutal actions against women.

Are you upset about that? By your arguments you should be. But...woosh..what's that silence I hear from you about that?

I don't see you complaining about the stuff posted on the internet or produced in studios and mega-marketed that gives men their does of hate that inspires them before they go rape, beat and murder a young girl.

Yet, you try to put forth the argument that the stuff posted on the internet from a handful of neo-nazi juvenile misfits is responsible for all of your problems in Germany.
Give me a break.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 12:05:24 AM||   2004-09-09 12:05:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Free Speech? You must be kidding! Inciting people to slaughter Jews has nothing to do with free speech.

Shouting "FIRE" in a theater doesn't qualify either.
You think "Free Speech" would be respected if the local Arabs got together in Lower Manhattan in two days to praise the "Magnificent 19" of 9/11.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:11:13 AM||   2004-09-09 12:11:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 but apparently inciting people to rape, torture and murder women is different. I guess I'm just wondering how you justify that into your argument TGA.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 12:25:19 AM||   2004-09-09 12:25:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 B you are comparing apples and pears here. Movies are works of fiction, and they are clearly understood as that by most viewers (although some might misunderstand them).
No movie tells you: When you've finished watching, go out and rape or kill a woman. A movie that really GLORIFIES murder and rape of women in unmistakable ways should actually be banned.
And many are, btw. Don't tell me your local Blockbuster stocks graphic rape porn glorifying the whole thing? In all nude, bloody graphic details? Does it?

By your free speech definition, Der Stürmer should be legal and readily available. His publisher was hanged in 1946. He killed nobody with his hands, yet he was a mass murderer.

And those Nazi sites are not the works of a few "juvenile misfits". They are the work of affluent people and organizations with a dedicated agenda.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:29:39 AM||   2004-09-09 12:29:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 B thanks for giving me a few minutes to formulate my answer.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:31:25 AM||   2004-09-09 12:31:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 I hope you never find out that the next attack on America was planned and executed by a group in Detroit. Then we'll talk again about vigorous efforts.

Which is why I already posted this:

"You are quite clear, TGA, and I cannot continue my own stance without admitting to the hypocrisy of not wanting such American inspired wetwork going on in my own country."

On the matter of neo-Nazi websites and the like; There exist certain types of speech that are rightfully curtailed by law. Just like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater that isn't burning is illegal, so is making death threats against a person or openly advocating the violent overthrown of America's government.

Neo-Nazis overtly glorify their desire for continued genocide against the Jews. This is clearly defined hate-speech and needs to be legally proscribed. Contrary to recent European "sensitivity standards," calling Islam a "dirty religion" or labeling Islamists as "fanatics" is not hate-speech. Those are opinions which every person is free to express. How such countries reconcile allowing jihad to be taught in mosques while supressing opposition views to such obviously violent religious doctrine is beyond me.

You think "Free Speech" would be respected if the local Arabs got together in Lower Manhattan in two days to praise the "Magnificent 19" of 9/11.

While vigilante crowds might see that such a gathering was closed down out of hand, any event like that which praises terrorist activity should be legally estopped. This is the exact same sort of hate speech as the Nazis, no difference.

B, I think you are conflating gratuitous movie violence with patently clear advocacy of genocide. There is a huge distinction that I think you might concede if you reconsider. Re-enacting violence against a woman is a far cry from calling for the extermination of an entire culture.
Posted by Anonymous6166 2004-09-09 12:31:33 AM||   2004-09-09 12:31:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Zenster, "sensitivity standards" of free speech may vary.

Tell a woman that she has a gorgeous butt.

In the U.S.: A lawsuit for sexual harrassment
In Europe: A stern look or a smile (depending on whether you look handsome or not)
In Latin America: A BIG Smile
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:36:32 AM||   2004-09-09 12:36:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 I think I am suffering from a disconnect. I don't find anything at the link, but my understanding of Putin's statement is that it is very simular to what GW said after 9/11: terrorist camps are fair game in countries that sponsor islamo-butchers. The journalist/pundit has written that Putin really meant that he was loosing hit-squads throughout Western nations. It appears to me that he has created the same type of strawman that the leftists in our country create when the wish to attack the Patriot Act.
Posted by Super Hose 2004-09-09 12:37:48 AM||   2004-09-09 12:37:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Post #39 was mine.

And those Nazi sites are not the works of a few "juvenile misfits". They are the work of affluent people and organizations with a dedicated agenda.

And I would like to see a thorough federal investigation that not only sought to close down such hatemongers but also traced their funding back to those "affluent people and organizations with a dedicated agenda" for further prosecution on felony charges.

TGA, who do you reckon these "affluent people" are and what is their real motivation, besides racial hatred, for sponsoring such un-American drivel (and just plain trash in general)? It is phenomenal to consider that in an age of compulsory education people still carry such blind and ignorant hatreds.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 12:39:56 AM||   2004-09-09 12:39:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 maybe they are in Germany. But here they are a bunch of bedraggled juvenile misfits. Last time I heard of a neo-nazi actually killing someone was ....a good while back. And even then those crimes are few and far between here in the US.

My point stands. Compared to the violence against women portrayed on the very media we are using - right now - incitement against women is a far greater problem - it's not all fiction. If they only picked Jewish women, would it then qualify as a hate crime?

Your complaint that a few juvenile misfits in the US, posting hate speech are somehow responsible for all of Germany's woes is just ridiculous and seems especially weak since you are unwilling to condem a far more prevalent type of hate crimes.

I guess women just don't count.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 12:43:46 AM||   2004-09-09 12:43:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 Zenster, "sensitivity standards" of free speech may vary.

Yes, but this new crap in Britain about not being able to openly criticize other religions is restraint of free speech. That was my point. Plus, if denying people the chance to make sexual comments upon another's physique is the price for eliminating violence against women, I'll have to vote for it. Abuse of women is a GLOBAL problem and one that must be brought under control post haste.

PS: Good point, Super Hose.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 12:46:59 AM||   2004-09-09 12:46:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 B First I have never made that point about those people being responsible for Germany's problems.

I will condemn any hate crime, why do you think I would not? Btw I can do without quite a few bloody U.S. movies, thank you. But they show FICTION.

And Zenster, I think you just spoke out against cherished free speech. You're willing to ban a (mostly) innocent compliment because this compliment leads to the sexual abuse of women? Might lead?
But a website spewing hate and lies against "niggers" and Jews is free speech? What kind of double standard is that?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 12:58:44 AM||   2004-09-09 12:58:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 B, I think you are severely underestimating the makeup of American neo-Nazi groups. Aryan Nation is not a "bunch of bedraggled juvenile misfits." They are responsible for "murder, counterfeiting, bank robberies and armored car hold-ups." This is no small potatoes.

The predominant White prison gang, the Aryan Brotherhood (AB), got its start in San Quentin in the mid-1960s. Despite the fact that some members sport swastika tattoos and other Nazi symbols, its leaders are primarily interested in drug trafficking, protection rackets, prostitution and extortion inside and outside prison. This gang is tightly controlled from within the prison system, despite repeated attempts by law enforcement to break it up.

Please reconsider your position regarding this hyperviolent gang of genocidal thugs.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 1:12:48 AM||   2004-09-09 1:12:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 Zhang Fei, the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi site IS hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death.

Pleeeease TGA - it stretches all bounds of your credibility to think that you could not find multiple internet sites promoting real violence against women, much less actual photos. I feel certain are more of those online than there are neo-nazi sites.

All calls for hate speech are bad. No one is disagreeing with you on that. What is being disagreed is the line between speech, stating an opinion that all jews or fags are bad v/s specific calls for killing (illegal).

Just like I am arguing the line between stories inciting violence against women (legal) v/s real photos or calls for it (illegal).

It's a fine line in both areas - but we allow the opinions and do not allow calls for real action.

seems like you've made my point better than your own.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 1:15:39 AM||   2004-09-09 1:15:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 perhaps I should Zenster. But I bet you can't find me a recent article about them killing a jew or a black person - and I could probably find you twenty crimes against women - from today alone...and yesterday...and the day before.

But that's not my real point. The point I am making is in post #47.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 1:18:23 AM||   2004-09-09 1:18:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 Zenster, I think you just spoke out against cherished free speech.

How so, TGA? Inappropriate sexual comments between non-consenting adults quite often constitutes nothing more than simple abuse. That's nothing I cherish. Shrugging off such behavior with an explanation of "boys-will-be-boys" has served to perpetuate the ugly tradition of degrading women in general. Please clarify what you mean. I'm also curious about where B stands on this issue.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 1:24:36 AM||   2004-09-09 1:24:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 Shrugging off such behavior with an explanation of "boys-will-be-boys" has served to perpetuate the ugly tradition of degrading women in general.

I completely agree, Zenster. However, there is plenty of room for grey when drawing that line. Fat jokes, bald jokes, short jokes, and even blonde jokes, are also abusive.

I think with speech, it's best to draw the line at calls for action.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 1:30:15 AM||   2004-09-09 1:30:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#51 B please don't change the subject. You were talking about the videos of your local Blockbuster Store (I wouldn't know what they stock).

On the internet you just find about anything... and sites that promote and glorify violence and abuse against women are as vile as those promoting hate crimes against Jews or Blacks. Both would be illegal in Germany and German hosters will shut them down rather fast (or are required by law to do so).
Obviously we differ about what is "appropriate" and what is not. That is true for different parts of the world as well. Listen to a discussion between a Brazilian, a German and an U.S. woman and you'd find very different views about what is "degrading" and what is not.

B I agree that there is a fine line, often blurred. No real solution there.

But asking the Saudis to stop their Wahhabis preaching hate in the madrassa AND defending the same thing as "free speech" in the U.S. stretches the argument every so slightly.

Condemning "sexually degrading" comments as leading to sexual abuse AND at the same time defending "racially degrading" comments as free speech does as well.

As they say: Your Mileage May Vary.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 1:43:44 AM||   2004-09-09 1:43:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 FYI: B

White Supremacist Found Guilty in Tacoma Murder

Jury Deciding in White Supremacist Murder Case

White Supremacist Guilty of Brutal Las Vegas Stabbing Murder
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 1:50:32 AM||   2004-09-09 1:50:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#53 I think with speech, it's best to draw the line at calls for action.

And the American neo-Nazis openly call for genocide. That is why they should be shut down.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-09 1:58:00 AM||   2004-09-09 1:58:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#54 B please don't change the subject. You were talking about the videos of your local Blockbuster Store (I wouldn't know what they stock).

um...excuse me..but I've never changed the subject. I'm sinking my teeth into the fact that you said,

"the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi site IS hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death"

and I'm not letting go.

BTW..TGA...things that a call for action against women or jews are also illegal here.

You are up on a mighty high horse there, TGA. And your comments about what a woman in Brazil v/s a German or US woman are extemely offensive.

your word, "degrading", is nothing short of a slap to face of all women... considering the type of material that we both know is readily available.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 2:04:31 AM||   2004-09-09 2:04:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#55 Zenster, you openly call for the slaughter of Muslims here every day, many times a day--some would and do call that "hate speech" and a "call for genocide."
Want RB shut down?
Neo-Nazis are a miniscule group of fringe crazies in this country and as you yourself pointed out with the links about murder trials, those White Supremacists acted and committed murder; it wasn't just "talk."
As the Liberals keep reminding us, we do have the First Amendment and to restrict its freedoms should be very difficult.
Charity begins at home: You are quite the misogynist ("Woman hater" for those in Rio Linda), as I've found out.
Clean up your own act before you go after others you think are egregious before you start agitating for new laws.
(And you're pretty intolerant of Christians, too--Do you think Americans practicing their faith should be censored or jailed, too?)
Thank God President Bush is in the White House and Clarence Thomas, Scalia and Rehnquist are in the Supreme Court and not you and your "tolerant, Liberal" friends!
Liberals these days are anything but tolerant or liberal!
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-09 2:08:46 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-09 2:08:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#56 Zen, ok, you win....I'll reconsider. But it's still a far cry from what I could produce if I put it up against crimes against women.

I'm not saying you disagree.... just hammering my point home harder than I probably need to.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 2:08:47 AM||   2004-09-09 2:08:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#57 TGA- Euro and Aussie hate speech laws are now protecting the fascists more than they are hindering them.
When you live in a politically correct culture, hate speech laws mean that people who write books about the threat of Islam get prosecuted under those laws, while wahabbi mosques keep going up everyday.

And plotting a crime is different than incitement. Ive heard incitement plenty, Im not burning down a mosque. It comes down to responsibility. And the person who DECIDES after reading the neo nazi website to go burn a synagogue is responsible, not the website he read.
And when someone yells fire in a movie theater, it is a crime, not incitement...the people he yelled to in the theater who may hurt one another did not DECIDE to hurt one another, neither did they decide to run or stay and get burned to death.
Anyway, I think you will see that hate speech laws will not only not work, they will make matters worse.
Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-09-09 2:15:15 AM||   2004-09-09 2:15:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#58 B What on earth is "degrading" about the thing that women in the U.S., Germany and Brazil differ in their opinion about what kind of compliments they find "sexually degrading" and which not? In the U.S. even a casual remark about a nice haircut can land you in legal trouble.

Extremely offensive???

Sorry B, I have never been "offensive" to women, this is simply ridiculous. I never make a compliment to a woman that this woman might find offensive. But I been to Brazil, and NO woman I have made a compliment about her body to (after getting to know her a bit) has EVER complained about it, but has given me a broad smile and a "muito obrigado". I would not even try this in the U.S.

As for the U.S. Nazi sites: German authorities routinely ask U.S. providers to shut down a Nazi hate site because court proceedings showed that German Neo-Nazis used them to organize hate crimes. It doesn't happen every day but it does happen.

Call for action? Does any Blockbuster movie call for action against women?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 2:20:52 AM||   2004-09-09 2:20:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#59 time to put down the drink, TGA and actually read the comments.

I have a point that goes beyond "compliments". If you get sober enough to grasp it, we'll talk.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 2:25:16 AM||   2004-09-09 2:25:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#60 TGA, sounds eerily like the Taliban or any other form of the Islamic religious police, doesn't it?
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-09 2:25:39 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-09 2:25:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#61 good post, vice girl.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 2:30:12 AM||   2004-09-09 2:30:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#62 Sorry B, it's you who is constantly distorting my points and changing the subject.
It's 8.30 am here and all I had was a coffee.
Let's leave it there. The discussion doesn't go anywhere.

My point is: If sexually degrading speech is condemned, then racially degrading speech must be condemned, too. You can't have the cake and eat it.

What's good for the Wahhabi is good for the Nazi.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 2:42:22 AM||   2004-09-09 2:42:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#63 My apologies, apparently it wasn't too much drink, but too little coffee. Go back and READ my posts. If you think I'm talking about compliments, it's clear you need to wipe the sleep from your eyes.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 2:45:05 AM||   2004-09-09 2:45:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#64 I have condemned Nazi hate sites
I have cindemned Jihadi sites
I have condemned sites that degrade women

So what part of the condemnation don't you understand, B?

You brought up the women subject. And you blamed me for "silence" before I even had a chance to reply. The whole argument started when Zenster wanted Germany to take a harder stance regarding people who give Jihad speeches, and I replied, yes, fine, but what about the harder stances to Nazi speeches in the U.S.? (And they merge when it comes to Antisemitism).

Then you B come in and blame me for not condemning movies that degrade women. Which I did in latter posts.

So? Your point? What on earth is degrading or offensive about my comments now?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 3:00:53 AM||   2004-09-09 3:00:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#65 "the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi site IS hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death"
How hard is this really, TGA.

These are your words, no? How hard is it to see that you are blaming America because some misfits in our huge country make some ridiculous statements.

I haven't changed the subject. These are your words.

I'm tired. It's not early here. You are quick to condemn "words" that inspire hatred against jews or blacks, but you wiggle when it comes to words that condemn women.

You clearly didn't read my posts. It annoys me.

Reread my posts if you want to pursue this further. Your complaints that I'm talking about "compliments" shows you didn't bother to respect what I said.

I took the time to put a thought out. If you don't want to read it, why should I bother.

Good night.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 3:22:28 AM||   2004-09-09 3:22:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#66 Yes these are my words. And they are right out of actual German court proceedings. About 90 percent of all Nazi hate sites are hosted in the U.S. because they are protected by "free speech" there. And German court have demonstrated the influence of these websites on actual hate crimes in Germany. You belittled them as the work of some juvenile misfits which they are clearly not.

And dammit, I did condemn words that degrade women. What I said is that in the USA some words are seen as "degrading" which in other countries are seen as welcome compliments. This is a fact that any traveller can attest too. Since I have been in Germany, USA and Brazil, I can make that statement.

Jeez.

But frankly I'm getting tired of this, too. So good night.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 3:40:11 AM||   2004-09-09 3:40:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#67 My point is valid and I'm sticking to it.

1. Internet sites that actually call for specific acts against jews or blacks ARE ILLEGAL here too, compadre. They can be shut down.
2. Internet sites that call for specific acts or post real pictures of real violence against women are also illegal.

So what we are talking about is the "free speech" stuff that is allowed to, as you say, incite - otherwise, they are just as illegal here as they are in Germany.

The problem caused by skinheads pales so greatly in comparison to the crimes against women, that complaining of neo-nazi crimes is like demanding immediate treatement for a hangnail on a bloody battlefield. I'm not saying you condone the violence against women - but "degrade" is not a word I would use to describe the brutal rapes, torture and murders that occur daily.

Secondly - I live in this country and I've lived in many different parts of it. Neonazis are NOT prevalent here. While they may be organized in much the same way that Hells Angels are organized to sell drugs and generate income from hate, they ARE NOT, I repeat, NOT a big part of our landscape. Your saying otherwise, doesn't make it so. This is a HUGE country. There ARE NOT daily news reports of neonazi's beating jews, blacks and gays. At least not any more so than than your average punk getting drunk and looking for someone to pound. Yet brutal rapes and murders occur, possibly by the thousands, worldwide. Perhaps your outrage would be better spent on much more serious problem than the occassional crime committed by neo-nazis.



Futhermore ...what got me started on all of this was your accusation that the Neo-Nazi stuff in your country is a by product from ours. That's just so freaking laughable its not even funny. Dusting off one case where some freaks from our HUGE country connected with some freaks from yours and drawing the conclusion that the neo nazi movement moves from west is so absurd as to be beneath you.
Posted by B 2004-09-09 10:20:11 AM||   2004-09-09 10:20:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#68 should have said "moves from west to east"
Posted by B 2004-09-09 10:22:14 AM||   2004-09-09 10:22:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#69 TGA...B

Gosh, I feel like I've been in a 10 round fight!

Let's kiss and make up...huh!
Posted by RN  2004-09-09 10:49:47 AM||   2004-09-09 10:49:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#70 RN.. sorry, couldn't help myself. I guess I did beat it to death. I better watch out.. might get accused of a hate crime. :-)
Posted by B 2004-09-09 10:53:17 AM||   2004-09-09 10:53:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#71 Not to take this to round 11, just a quick reply and lets be done with.

No argument with point 1 and 2.
Belitteling the Nazi problem because women are subject to so much more violence is not my idea of it.
I never used "degrade" to "describe the brutal rapes, torture and murders that occur daily". I used it for the (fictional) movies. Please don't quote me wrong all the time. I said women in different parts of the world have different ideas about what kind of comments about their body they find degrading. Rape, torture and murder don't fall into that category, they are universally condemned, that goes without saying. Btw you are not clear in your arguments whether you think that fictional movies lead men to rape, torture and murder.

There is not "your Neonazis" and "our Neonazis" argument. These organizations are international, they are financed by people all over the world, and they simply use the countries for their propaganda that make it easiest for them. Liberal free speech laws allow them to post a lot of things on U.S. servers or printed material (sent from the U.S. to Germany per mail) that are not allowed in Germany.

Replace Nazis by Jihadis, and we'll talk again. When it comes to Islamist propaganda, many American suddenly seem very cool about the ideal of free speech.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-09-09 3:19:06 PM||   2004-09-09 3:19:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 I have never argued against your point that it is difficult for Germany to shut down access to this filth, due to worldwide access from the Internet.

And like you asked me to substitute "Islamic" to see it from a different perspective, I asked you to substitute "graphic violence against women" to see a broader point of view.

I limited my discussion from Hollywood to the Internet, because you'd have to be crazy not to admit that the Internet is a useful tool in promoting child porn, facilitating the sale and transport of women and children for sexual purposes and in providing an outlet for sicko's to trade their true-live stories about rape and murder. That ain't fiction, TGA. And the resulting problem is far greater than your Nazi problem.

The reason I brought up the women, was not to belittle the Nazi issue, but to expose what I knew would be a double standard on your part regarding the tolerance of ideas that sit right smack in middle - between individual freedom -and the common-good's need for monitor and control.

We allow vile speech, (be it neo-nazi; violence against women; or Islamic claims of superiority) as free speech. We value this freedom because it allows people to vet their ideas, no matter how offensive. But we do as good as a job as your country in prohibiting speech that steps out of that very big grey area, and into the black, once it is stated as a call to "action".

This thread has many twist and turns, so rather than go on, I'll just make my central point. You were just engaging in EU, knee-jerk, blame America for everything, when you claimed that, "the stuff posted on U.S. Nazi sites are hurting and killing people in Germany. That's where the local Neo-Nazis here get their dosis of hate from before they go out and torch an asylum shelter or hunt a black foreigner to death"

While stuff posted elsewhere in the world might make it harder for Germany to kill their Nazi beast - the US is hardly responsible for your overall problem.

Futhermore, the idea that the US is a country that "make it easiest for them" as you said when this got started, is absurd. I can't think of any other country where the Neo-nazi movement is more effectively infiltrated by the FBI, than our own. And internet sites calling for specific violence are illegal. So I don't get why you are claiming the US is the "Easiest" place for them to operate - as opposed to any other place, worldwide, with an internet connection.

Nazi stuff moves from East to West, not the other way around TGA. Blaming America for the Nazi problem, is absurd.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 5:31:02 AM||   2004-09-10 5:31:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#73 I'll modify my last sentence - it moves both ways. I'll conceed that perhaps it is more funded and organized than I am I aware, but that's because, other than on the internet, or occassional graphitti, the entire movement is next to inivisible here.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 8:46:05 AM||   2004-09-10 8:46:05 AM|| Front Page Top

13:11 UFO
14:07 Steve from Relto
14:07 Steve from Relto
09:58 UFO
08:46 B
05:31 B
15:19 True German Ally
10:53 B
10:49 RN
10:22 B
10:20 B
06:05 Bulldog
05:53 Bulldog
04:09 Super Hose
04:05 trailing wife
03:40 True German Ally
03:22 B
03:00 True German Ally
02:45 B
02:42 True German Ally
02:30 B
02:25 GreatestJeneration
02:25 B
02:20 True German Ally









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