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Russia seals off North Ossetia
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Page 1: WoT Operations
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Page 4: Opinion
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Lessons from Beslan
Just my opinion...
Russia lost more people in the Beslan atrocity than were killed in the Bali bombings. They lost another 129 in the Nord Ost Theater attack a couple years ago. They've lost more in the various booms and shootouts within Chechnya and in its neighboring states and provinces. Fox News reports today that Putin as admitted Russia has been too soft on terrorism — there's no telling whether they're actually going to do something, or if he's just beating his breast in self-reproach.

I've made the point here before that Russia's military in the Caucasus hasn't been up to snuff. It's a conglomeration of draftees and elite troops, and it doesn't seem from this distance as though intel is driving operations. The Russians invented the combined arms concept, they tested it, they exeercised it, but they don't do it well. You can't have effective military operations without tight integration of intelligence assets. Otherwise commanders are working blind.

Even with intel integration, they'd still have a foot in a bucket. There are (or used to be) separate chains of command for OMON, Spetsnaz, and line units. That's 1968-era organization. We suffered from the same problems in Vietnam, and they suffered from similar problems — and even solved many of them — in Afghanistan. It looks from here like they've reverted, and I'm guessing that's due to the inertia built into their military structure.

Their other significant problem is the fact that so much of their military is made up of draftees. Putin has said he's going to institute a professional military. He fired Kvanshin a couple months ago, removing an obstacle to military reform. 76th Airborne Division is supposed to be switching from conscripts to professionals and is due in Chechnya sometime this year, as of last report. It's not a process that's racing along, though. If they're going to accomplish anything, they've got to speed it up, and then they've got to tough it out through the shakedown period, when it's going to look like a bad idea. Once the bugs are out, there will be improvement.

The most important thing I'm hoping Putin has learned is that Russia is being warred upon by one man: Shamil Basayev. Maskhadov is window dressing, providing the same "legitimate" face to the Chechens that the religious parties provide to the Pak jihadis or that Sinn Fein provides to the IRA. If Maskhadov was bumped off tomorrow, there would be another "president" of Chechnya. All the "brigades" in Chechnya seem to report to Basayev, not to Maskhadov, and Basayev doesn't report to him. At best, he sometimes consults with him. That also goes for the legions of Arabs flocking to the Caucasus to make their bones. The Arabian money filters through Arab hands, but ends up in Basayev's pocket. It was Basayev who pioneered the peculiarly brutal methods of the Chechen thugs: In 1995 he and a force of about 100 men stormed a hospital in Budennovsk, taking 2000 people hostage. Ryadus Salikhin, the Black Widows, Islamic International Brigade, all lead back to him. He's the kingpin, and even whatever al-Ghamdi is handling the money nowadays gets his marching orders from him.

Why? Basayev's been successful. That 1995 raid led to negotiations, and the negotiations led to Chechnya being cut loose, effectively, from Russia. They couldn't keep it, of course, but that's mainly because they couldn't control their thuggish inclinations. Once they had it, they had to carry jihad to Dagestan and Ingushetia, and they had to send "warnings" to the Russers in the form of exploding apartment buildings.

Basayev is to Putin as Osama bin Laden is to the USA. He's the man they have to catch or kill, and preferably the latter. I made the remark yesterday that the "pinheads" of the world will decry Russian brutality regardless of what Putin does on response to the attack. Some people took exception to that remark. But I stand by it: If he does nothing, he'll be characterized as week, all show and no substance. If he does anything other than nothing, to include continuing the present inept approach, involving being reactive to the daily local outrages of the Basayev's army, he'll be described as over-reacting and brutality. I'm hoping he'll realize this and be properly ruthless in the hunt for Basayev, the while rebuilding Chechnya as they've tried on occasion to do. If it takes out wiping out an entire county to get Shamil, then the county should be wiped out, as long as they're sure they're going to get him. It's a matter of "pay me now or pay me later": carnage to take out the kingpin, or ongoing carnage while he remains alive. The corpse count is going to be lower with the former than with the latter.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 4:41:46 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Basayev's hometown? Make it the new glow-worm of the Russian confederation
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 17:59 Comments || Top||

#2  as I've bleated here so often, until the costs of jihad are brought home to the financial and religious arms (hmmm, Arabia fits that bill) there will be no peace. Mullahs dead, princes dead and moskkks in radioactive ruin will explain the costs to these asshats. I'm not in a "live and let live" mood. Kill them and take the oil if that's what it comes down to
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 18:03 Comments || Top||

#3  Since the Iranians want a nuclear power plant so much, perhaps the Chechens do also. Putin should oblige them. I'm sure blueprints of Chernobyl are still around somewhere in Russia.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 18:08 Comments || Top||

#4  I never thought that one day I'd be rooting for the Red Army. We live in interesting times.
Posted by: Matt || 09/04/2004 18:28 Comments || Top||

#5  Agree with Fred and Matt.

I am coming to the conclusion that there are 2 kinds of muslims: those that abhor and will fight against jihad; and, those that do not. Any and every muslim that do not are the enemy. An enemy that must be fought to the death.

It does not matter why a muslim will not fight against jihad. By proxy, they are aiding and abetting the enemy. An enemy that will eventually kill every "infidel".

I am not an advocate of a scorched earth. But there is coming a day when islam will be faced with cleansing the islamic toilet of the human excrement or the western world will do it for them. And they will not be nearly as surgical.
Posted by: anymouse || 09/04/2004 19:10 Comments || Top||

#6  There is an op-ed piece in the Moscow Times online that talks of the ordinary russian talking about instituting the policies of Gen. Yermolov, who was the Tsarist general who conquered Chenchenya. He held the tribes collectively responsible for the deeds of the tribes members. The Op-ed says it is time that this is discussed in the government or there may be a new government. The Times is usually pretty liberal, but I think that it is now reverting to being russian. Yulia Latinya a real out spoken columnist is now professing herself as an imperialist and saying that Russia should reclaim its old borders. Don't know what she considers 'old'. I think that in the next few months-two years we are going to hear about a really pissed off bear shitting in the woods. Definitely there will be a harder line taking by Putin or it is going be bye-bye Vladimir.
Posted by: Old Fogey || 09/04/2004 22:51 Comments || Top||

#7  I met a 20 yr old Russian from a town about 100 miles from the Chechen border 2 yrs ago. He was a college student on a 6 mo visa in the US and he had no intention of going back. Military service was mandatory in his area for any male after secondary school. A postponement is given for those able to go to college but, after school, its marching time. Bootcamp lasts 8 weeks and then into the fire you go. He said many of his friends had already come back in boxes. If Putin is serious, he needs to send real soldiers instead of 18 yr old kids to fight seasoned veterans. Hopefully this is a wakeup call.
Posted by: BombIranNow || 09/04/2004 23:30 Comments || Top||

#8  What BIN said. The root cause of the Chechen mess is the total incompetence, demoralization and corruption of the Russian military, incl Spetsnaz. Were they halfway professional and organized, the rebellion would have been put down ten years ago.
Posted by: lex || 09/04/2004 23:34 Comments || Top||

#9  Don't know that pointing to the Russian military as the "root cause" is correct--isn't it really IslamoFacisct terrorists that are the root cause?
OBL and his deputies like Basayev militarized and radicalized AQ and its branches starting in the early 1990's.
They'd like a little payback for Russia's invasion of Afghanistan.
And they're more convinced in Russia's case than they were of ours that Russia is a "paper tiger."
Chechnya is another node of the cancer that we now know as Islamist jihad by terror and murder to be added to the others of Kashmir, Kosovo, Iraq, Thailand, Nepal, the Philippines, Basque Spain, Indonesia, etc., etc., etc. and Paleostine (and maybe Tri-borders in South America).
Posted by: GreatestJeneration || 09/07/2004 18:51 Comments || Top||


Arabia
Cole defendant offers mosque alibi
Jamal Al-Badawi, the mastermind suspect of the USS Cole bombing in 2000 listens to the witnesses with three other suspects behind. SANA'A - USS Cole suspect defense lawyer Abdul-Aziz Al-Samawi presented alibi witnesses on Wednesday for Jamal Al-Badawi, who he said had been in Sana'a when the October 2000 attack occurred. Amar Rashed, one witness, said that the defendant had come to Sana'a a few days prior to the explosion, because Rashed was to be appointed as a mosque preacher in Aden and Al-Badawi was a member of the mosque's committee. He said that the two heard about the assault while they were in Sana'a. He also disputed the claim that Al-Badawi had called Fahd Al-Qusai.

A second witness corroborated Rashed's testimony. "I met them both, Jamal and Amar, at the door or of a mosque one Friday prior to the attacks and I do not think Jamal had contacted Fahd Al-Qusai," he said under oath. A third witness, Abdul-Karim Ahmed Sharhan, was barred from testifying because he was the uncle of Al-Badawi. The Court heard additional arguments by the prosecution countering Al-Samawi's evidence. A copy of the controversial transport permit issued by former interior minister, Hussein Arab was submitted to the court. Prosecutors said that the document was issued to "Sheikh Mohammed Omar Al-Harazi", which turned out to be an alias of Abdul-Rahim Al-Nashiri, the alleged mastermind of the attacks currently held by the United States.

During the session, Al-Samawi was fined YR 2,000 for being held in contempt during the proceedings. He was also instructed to bring the original copy of the transport permit and present it to the prosecution. The prosecution was ordered by the court to allow the Cole suspects to see their families and to be moved from their solitary cells to a collective prison. It also assigned journalist Mohammed Faria Al-Shaibai of Al-Ayyam Daily to verify and prepare a report on the possibility of photos being taken of the Cole, from a specific location, with a camera found with the suspects when the Cole bombing took place. The case was adjourned until this Wednesday.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 12:27:48 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Cole defendant offers mosque alibi

Allah was talking inside my head. "Get the infidel ship! Get the infidel ship! Get the infidel ship! I had to obey."

The trial testimony in the article is just flatulance.
Posted by: BigEd || 09/04/2004 0:35 Comments || Top||

#2  Al Capone was in Florida during the St. Valentine's day massacre, too, but he pulled all the strings...
Posted by: PBMcL || 09/04/2004 0:36 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Los Angeles airport partly closed amid security scare
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 09/04/2004 16:06 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Breaking LAX Airport shut down; Security breech and checkpoint incident; developing
Los Angeles International Airport was shut down early Saturday because of a possible security breach and a separate incident at an international terminal security screening station, an airport spokesman said. No information was immediately available on the incident at Tom Bradley International Terminal, airport spokesman Harold Johnson said. Officials also did not explain the possible security breach that shut down terminals 6, 7 and 8. The terminals are connected. Traffic was being diverted from the airport.

Fox News reports two incidents, one involving a boom. More as it develops...
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 12:13 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  breach, not breech... doh!
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 12:13 Comments || Top||

#2  reports of explosion! But not clear whether this was a controlled explosion or not...
Posted by: Lux || 09/04/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#3  Calm down, now; no need to get your broaches in a bunch over a simple misspelling...
Posted by: Dave D. || 09/04/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#4  I LOVE broaches
Posted by: Madeleine Halfbright || 09/04/2004 12:24 Comments || Top||

#5  Explosion caused by torch passing through x-ray machine? Bizarre.
Posted by: Lux || 09/04/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#6  What kind of "small explosion" wounds seven?
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/04/2004 13:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Third attack on LAX?

(Millenium bomb, LAX shooter, then this)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 09/04/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#8  "torch" [Brit.] == "flashlight" [U.S.]
Earlier Fox had a report that said something like "a flashlight with corroded batteries exploded." That changed to "something that looked like a flashlight." Now (1:47pm est) the Fox report is gone, and all they have up is a considerably less detailed AP dispatch.

It does say two incidents, and quotes the FBI as saying they "appeared to be unrelated," but I wonder...
Posted by: Old Grouch || 09/04/2004 13:50 Comments || Top||

#9  A publicity stunt for the new show LAX? I wonder.
Posted by: Bill Nelson || 09/04/2004 21:23 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Afghan troops beheaded and skinned
Afghanistan's main rights body yesterday said troops were beheaded and skinned during a four-day battle between rival warlords in western province Herat last month, underlining tensions as October polls near. Nader Ahmad Nadery of Afghanistan's Independent Human Rights Commission said the organisation had found several cases of "beheading and skinning" during recent factional fighting in Herat's Shindand district. Clashes raged for four days in mid-August between troops loyal to Amanullah Khan, a militia commander now under house arrest in Kabul, and forces loyal to Herat governor Ismael Khan, close to the region's richest city Herat, the provincial capital. "Four people were beheaded and a commander was skinned by Amanullah's men," Nadery said. Rights workers also found several cases of robbery and intimidation of women by Amanullah's armed men during the battle. "We have seen cases of robbery and some women were beaten," he said. A broader investigation by the rights watchdog and the United Nations was underway, he added.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 09/04/2004 7:51:54 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1 
I don't think that Allan approves skinning captives.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 09/04/2004 22:08 Comments || Top||

#2  Amanulla's a Pashtun. What'd you expect?
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 22:09 Comments || Top||

#3  Mike...I think you are right. Even the satanic allan would reject beheading and skinning other allan-cultists.
Posted by: anymouse || 09/04/2004 22:52 Comments || Top||

#4  Yeah. I can really see the influence of "God".
Posted by: BigEd || 09/04/2004 23:39 Comments || Top||


Two more Wana tribes sign accord against aliens
Two more Ahmadzai Wazir sub-tribes have inked an agreement with the political administration binding them against providing sanctuary to aliens and for supporting the government in its drive to flush out Qaeda and other anti-state elements from the South Waziristan Agency. Both the Khujalkhel and the Ghulamkhel sub-tribes deposited 32 AK-47 rifles with the administration as guarantees to abide by the agreement. Most tribes in the agency have reached similar agreements with the government, raising hopes the situation will get better. However, the Yargulkhel sub-tribe, to which a number of wanted individuals belong, has yet to arrive such an agreement. Tribals Maulvi Sharif, Maulvi Abdul Aziz and Noor Islam are wanted by the government in various terror-related cases. A local community representative said that agreements with the tribes should encourage the government to lift the economic sanctions imposed on the agency.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 11:21:49 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Question: just how many tribes are to sign these accords? I'm running out of fingers and toes, and these reports keep coming. Or are the same tribes signing these on a monthly basis?
Posted by: Steve White || 09/04/2004 14:18 Comments || Top||

#2  I always thought Navies operated subs, not tribes.
Posted by: Brett_the_Quarkian || 09/04/2004 14:45 Comments || Top||

#3  Two more Ahmadzai Wazir sub-tribes have inked an agreement with the political administration binding them against providing sanctuary to aliens..

Looks like Jeff Bridges won't be landing there anytime soon....
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/04/2004 21:06 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Released Truckers Return Home After 42-Day Iraq Ordeal
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 11:12 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Authorities Fail to Seal Off Kufa
Iraqi authorities failed to stop worshippers from entering Kufa on the first Friday after a peace deal between the government and Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr as France waited for news on two of its kidnapped journalists. Worshippers set up a makeshift pulpit on the street outside the Kufa Mosque, streaming into the city on foot and ignoring authorities who tried to block traffic because they apparently feared the sermons might spark unrest.

Iraqi police and national guardsmen set up checkpoints, barring all cars from entering the city and limiting the number of worshippers allowed in for the Friday prayers. But the people went anyway, getting out of their cars and streaming into the city in hopes of hearing a sermon by Sadr. Police and soldiers deployed around the mosque, which shut down last week after militants pulled out of it as part of the peace deal. A banner erected around the structure read "The Kufa Mosque has been closed for maintenance and cleanup."

Though Sadr abandoned plans to preach apparently in fear of exacerbating tensions, about 2,000 of his followers held the prayers on the street in front of the mosque, setting up a pulpit on the median strip. Despite the peace deal in Najaf, many members of Sadr's militia are thought to have returned with their weapons to their Baghdad stronghold of Sadr City and the cleric's representatives and Iraq's interim government have been seeking common ground to end fighting there. Jaber Al-Khafaji delivered Sadr's sermon on his behalf, condemning the kidnapping of the journalists and urging their quick release.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 11:10:31 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


At Least 10 Dead From Iraq Car Bomb Outside Military Academy
At least 10 people are dead after a suicide attacker detonated a car bomb outside a police academy in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. The blast went off as hundreds of trainees and civilians were leaving the academy for the day. A hospital official in Kirkuk put the death toll at 10, but an Iraqi national guard general says dozens have been killed. Ambulances raced to the scene, where seven cars were on fire. Rescue personnel ferried the wounded away on stretchers.

Also in northern Iraq, U.S and Iraqi forces clashed with insurgents in northern Iraq after launching an operation to destroy an alleged militant cell. Hospital officials say at least eight people were killed and 50 injured. The U.S. military says American soldiers killed two insurgents and captured another, while three Iraqi national guardsmen were injured in the fighting.

In Baghdad, meanwhile, several mortar rounds landed near a checkpoint in the Iraqi capital Saturday close to the heavily fortified Green Zone. It's not known if they hit anyone. To the south, saboteurs blew up an oil pipeline in southern Iraq, the latest attack targeting the country's crucial oil industry in a bid to undermine the interim government and reconstruction efforts. A South Oil Company official who didn't want to be identified says technicians were forced to close the pipeline 19 miles north of Basra. Meanwhile, a militant group has reportedly claimed responsibility for the assassination attempt Wednesday on former Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmad Chalabi. He wasn't hurt.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 10:35:05 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Caucasus
Chechen terrorists follow al-Qaida manual
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 09/04/2004 10:45 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
U.S. Changes Arrest Techniques in Iraq
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/04/2004 02:43 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Shit. I was hoping it would be more in the vein of shooting first and then questioning the corpse. I've lost my sense of humor - Apologies.
Posted by: .com || 09/04/2004 9:17 Comments || Top||

#2  I wonder what cabal of theoretical psychologists in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with this, perhaps with the aid of their colleagues down the hall at the voodoo anthropology section?
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 10:05 Comments || Top||

#3  My question - will it make the arrests harder to carry out? If not, then I can support it, or at least accept it.
Posted by: Edward Yee || 09/04/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#4  Have I got this straight, when we go to arrest a terrorist who has just blown up a couple of our guys we should cow tow to their culture and not embarass them in front of their families. Perhaps, we should send them back to the states to apologize to the families of the soldiers they have killed and give them a medal or something?
Posted by: Anonymous6316 || 09/04/2004 14:49 Comments || Top||

#5  This fucking kind of shit is just going to get more of our boys killed. Meet your Nam Kerrys of the next century.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi || 09/04/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#6  I would suggest this cultural sensitivity training: give up and get your face on the ground with your hands behind your back, ready to be arrested, or you'll cause our God-fearing, western civilization soldiers to feel bad after they cap your ignorant ass. You wouldn't want to inflame the GI's sensitivities, now, would we?
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 15:16 Comments || Top||

#7  We're OCCUPYING the country, not being "guests". What has to be done, has to be done, and if more people want to become insurgents as a result, then the solution is to KILL THEM when they make an attempt to ply their new trade.

If there were any reasons why things have been rather slow to be straightened out, this unnecessary inclination toward "sensitivity" would surely be one of them.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/04/2004 20:59 Comments || Top||

#8  You're forgetting that this only applies to arresting terrorists....not emptying the belt from the SAW into them and then beating the dead corpse with your E-tool.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 09/04/2004 21:06 Comments || Top||


Clashes Kill 11 in Iraq, U.S. Copter Forced to Land
Heavy fighting erupted near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul between U.S.-led forces and insurgents on Saturday and at least 11 people were killed and 52 wounded, the U.S. military and hospital officials said. As fighting raged, a U.S. military helicopter was forced to land near the town of Tallafar, near Mosul, and the two crew members aboard the helicopter were injured, the U.S. military said. It was not clear what forced it to land.

Explosions and machinegun fire could be heard in Tallafar, a town west of Mosul, about 390 km (242 miles) north of Baghdad, a Reuters witness at Tallafar hospital said. He said many of the wounded included women and children. U.S. helicopters flew overhead and columns of smoke rose into the air. Doctors said nine civilians had been killed. "Civilians are being brought in into the hospital. We expect the number of casualties to increase," a doctor said.

The U.S. military said the fighting began when soldiers from the 3rd Brigade, 2nd U.S. Infantry Division, entered Tallafar, which the Americans say is a haven for suspected militants crossing into Iraq from Syria. A U.S. vehicle sent to seal off the site where the helicopter landed came under rocket-propelled grenade fire, prompting U.S. troops to fire back, killing two insurgents. No U.S. casualties were reported. Amid the fighting, U.S. ground troops called in air support, dropping a bomb in an area near Tallafar. No casualties were reported, the U.S. military said in a statement.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 7:57:29 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Area familiarity: (spellings vary) there are three main roads entering from Syria in the northern sector of the Syrian border. Tall 'Afar is on the most southern route. About 35 miles from the border is Sinjar, another 35 is Tall 'Afar, then another 40 is Mosul. The middle route has the town of Al Huqnah, then it intersects with the southern route in the approach to Mosul. There are two cities on the northern route, Zakho and Dihok. We should expect to hear more about these cities in the future. There are only three other cities on the major southern sector of the Syrian border: Al Qaim, leading to Al Haqlaniyah; and Akashat.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 09/04/2004 9:57 Comments || Top||

#2  Why is it that the hospitals always report mostly women and children as being injured or killed? Are there never any men around when all this fighting starts, on the iraqi side that is?

Posted by: smokeysinse || 09/04/2004 17:48 Comments || Top||

#3  that's all they can muster in Allan's name?
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 17:53 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
Website statement blames Chechen rebels
Toll rises beyond 300, Putin visits town
More than 340 people were killed in a southern Russian school that had been seized by militants, a prosecutor said Saturday, and President Vladimir Putin accused the attackers of trying to spark an ethnic conflict that would engulf Russia's troubled Caucasus Mountains region. Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky told reporters that 322 victims, including 155 children, had been killed during the crisis in Beslan, and that all 26 attackers had been eliminated. That raised the death toll well beyond the 250 officials had previously cited.

Medical officials said more than 542 people including 336 children had been hospitalised as a result of the crisis, which ended in a wave of violence Friday. Commandos stormed the school and battled militants as crying children, some naked and covered with blood, managed to flee through explosions and gunfire after three days during which the hostage takers herded them into the gym, denied them food and water and threatened to kill them. Putin flew to Beslan before dawn on Saturday, as smoke was still rising from the shattered school. "Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children," he said during a meeting with regional officials, which was broadcast on Russian television.
Posted by: tipper || 09/04/2004 06:37 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  How transparent -- as memories of 911 raise apprehension in the US, Zionists stage an incident in Russia to create a stigma of global magnitude that will spur the Americans on to continue their crusade against 'militant' Islam. This time the plan included children in order to raise the hatred of Moslems to a new level.
Posted by: UFO || 09/04/2004 8:23 Comments || Top||

#2  ooohh please , get back on yer UFO and fook off back to your home , planet retard.



Posted by: MacNails || 09/04/2004 8:35 Comments || Top||

#3  Oh, spaced brother!
Posted by: Zarathustra || 09/04/2004 8:38 Comments || Top||

#4  oooh and btw , take your poorly constructed , ill educated , badly laid out and designed website with ya when u do go .. Its flippin ghastly
Posted by: MacNails || 09/04/2004 8:40 Comments || Top||

#5  If, as I suspect, UFO's "thought" patterns resemble those of the average ME muslim, then I don't see much reason to leave any of them alive. At all.
Posted by: Slumming || 09/04/2004 8:56 Comments || Top||

#6  Must.....not....feed.....trolls.

Oh, to hell with it. The chetnik deserter and mohammedan spy posted this himself so why not:

Did you ever get around to feeding those hungry Americans at that ptomaine palace of yours? Have any of them recovered yet?
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 9:09 Comments || Top||

#7  Take your racist comments elsewhere.
Posted by: RussSchultz || 09/04/2004 9:11 Comments || Top||

#8  Yo, UFOOL? What are you gonna do when the Zionists take over Burger King and you're out of a job?
Posted by: tu3031 || 09/04/2004 9:33 Comments || Top||

#9  UFO: Rantburg welcomes all expressions of opinion in the pursuit of civil, well-reasoned discourse.

I'd point out to you that most people who post here form their opinions based on facts. If additional facts become available, opinions often change.

Trolling consists of posting stoopid opinions that aren't based on available facts. There is no indication that "Zionists" are remotely involved in Chechnya and in the events in North Ossetia. There is every indication that Chechens, Arabs, and Muslims in general are. Until you have verifiable facts to the contrary, shut up and learn something. Otherwise, don't come back.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 10:02 Comments || Top||

#10  aah Fred , you always say things in such an eloquent manner I can only dream of . I am taking notes hehe!
Posted by: MacNails || 09/04/2004 10:06 Comments || Top||

#11  I was served a Croissant with Egg at Burger King by a nice Jewish girl once. I didn't realize her extended family owned the whole thing!
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 10:20 Comments || Top||

#12  Not so fast UFO, not only Americans but also a large part of the Europeans have had it with militant islam. In Europe islam has already won their demographic revolution, are you now going to say this is some sort of Zionist fertility experiment? Better fly back to your planet.....
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 09/04/2004 10:35 Comments || Top||

#13  I think Ufool is really Agent AL Chappeau reporting back to us in code.
Posted by: Shipman || 09/04/2004 12:33 Comments || Top||

#14  "...Rantburg welcomes...."

Fred, you are a bold liar, you filter URLs of all sources of controverting evidence, reducing a poster's ability to present an argument based on own beliefs. As Ronny said to Gorbachev, tear down that filter of truth Mr. Pruitt!
Posted by: UFO || 09/04/2004 13:11 Comments || Top||

#15  Hi, Boris.
Posted by: Fred || 09/04/2004 13:16 Comments || Top||

#16  Dude, I thought you were just being sarcastic, but I guess you really are an #$$hole. Welcome to the jungle.
Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/04/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#17  Hi, Boris.

Hey!!
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#18  OK, I'll play. The Russians must be cooperating with the Zionists, right? Falsely blaming Chechens, etc ? What's the motivation?
Posted by: Crikey || 09/04/2004 13:44 Comments || Top||

#19  Badanov - I think Fred is just letting UFO that he is anything but 'Unidentified'.

Think 'whois'...
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 09/04/2004 13:48 Comments || Top||

#20  Boris's new site's sitemeter kinda gives it away. Only 645 hits since last Sunday? Too much yappin', not enough Google-bombin'.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/04/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#21  Nice picture, Boris. Do you folks always do the dishes in your Y-fronts? And is that a bow or a BK paper hat?
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/04/2004 13:57 Comments || Top||

#22  Crikey: "OK, I'll play. The Russians must be cooperating with the Zionists, right? Falsely blaming Chechens, etc ? What's the motivation?"

Come now, do you think that Russians are less naive than Americans? Just tell me who is the sole beneficiary of retaliation when Israel trunmpets world-wide that Moslems are determined to destroy her.

Fred, sorry about forgetting to restore text size in my previous post.
Posted by: UFO || 09/04/2004 14:08 Comments || Top||


Russia: Al-Qaida involved in school attack; 250 said dead
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 09/04/2004 05:57 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Basayev primer
EFL from the original document dating back to the late 1990s and while it's still long its also very informative concerning Basayev and the possible strategy he's attempting to duplicate with respect to Breslan.
Like most controversial figures, there are a number of widely different assessments of this Chechen leader. For many Russians, he embodies the ruthless, criminal characteristics of a terrorist. His name became well known during the bloody events in June 1995, when Basayev and a handful of Chechen combatants, held some 1,500 Russian civilians hostage within the Budennovsk city hospital. Among his countrymen, however, Basayev is a great hero; a composite mix of Robin Hood, George Washington and his 19th Century namesake, Shamil. On more than one occasion, when Russian forces were on the threshold of destroying the remnants of Chechen resistance, Basayev managed to strengthen Chechen resolve and strike the Russians where it hurt.

Other than his birthplace, there is nothing in Shamil Basayev's early biography which would indicate his future martial prowess. He was born in 1965 in the small Chechen village of Vedeno. This village is adjacent to the fortress where a century earlier the great Chechen leader Shamil surrendered to Russian forces. For a young Chechen, the exploits of this distant ancestor must have been a source of pride and inspiration. Like many of the other ethnic groups which inhabit the Caucasus, the Chechens value highly the attributes of personal courage, clan loyalty, and expertise in warfare and weaponry. There could be no better role model for a young Chechen than the brave Shamil.

Basayev spent his childhood in Vedeno, completing secondary education there in 1982. Upon graduation, he spent two years in the Soviet military. Little is known of his Soviet military record, other than he served as a "fireman". He intended to become a policeman but could not get into law school and so worked in agriculture. By the time he finished school (1990), the first cracks were beginning to appear within the Soviet Union. The Berlin Wall had fallen and the national republics of the USSR were beginning to clamor for a greater degree of independence. Glasnost permitted the publication of many of the previously repressed histories. Non-Russians were at last permitted to read uncensored accounts of how they lived before being subjugated by Russian and Soviet power. Ethnic and nationalist symbols of pride were rediscovered. Freedom was in the air, and its scent invigorated these formerly repressed peoples and ethnic groups.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 2:50:08 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You wrote: "...expressed by an American officer in Vietnam: 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it.' That expression was not made by an American officer, but by anti-American protesters.

Posted by: Anonymous6313 || 09/04/2004 4:58 Comments || Top||

#2  A6313: You wrote: "...expressed by an American officer in Vietnam: 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it.' That expression was not made by an American officer, but by anti-American protesters.

Technically, it was said by an American officer. That American officer was John Kerry.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/04/2004 5:10 Comments || Top||

#3  Whoops - what I wrote above was wrong. Mona Charen pins down the source, Peter Arnett, who made it up from whole cloth:

This is hardly Arnett's first slip. As it happens, Arnett makes an appearance in my book "Useful Idiots" for his reporting from Vietnam. Remember the phrase, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"? It has become totemic. Arnett was the originator of the phrase. The trouble is, as first B.G. Burkett and then I discovered after a little investigation, the report was wrong. It wasn't the United States that destroyed Ben Tre (a town, not a village), but the Vietcong. And the soldier Arnett was most likely quoting remembers saying, "It was a shame the town was destroyed," not the fatuity Arnett made famous.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/04/2004 5:20 Comments || Top||

#4  You wrote: "...expressed by an American officer in Vietnam: 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it.' That expression was not made by an American officer, but by anti-American protesters. Technically, it was said by an American officer. That American officer was John Kerry.

One of the truly stupid things Kerry said when he lied to the Fulbright committee in 1971 is one of the most annoying, was his use of the term harassment and interdiction fire.

I played military games against some artillery officers neat Fort Sill, and I learned that H&I fire is a time honored means of breaking an enemy's static defenses down; to break an enemy's will to fight by bringing under artillery fire points on a map the enemy uses to resupply, redeploy and maintain force coherence. Targets such as depots, supply points, supply routes, switchlines, headquarters and the like.

All of these are legitimate targets for artillerymen in war, but Kerry used the term quite glibly, trying his damnedest to make it sound as if US forces directed such fire against non-military targets, or to make it sound like gunfire was being used for the sole purpiose or harassment, presumably against non-military targets.

This needs to be addressed because when Kerry loses this election, Kerry's serial lies, will be used by domestic opponents of the military to try to alter the things our forces do to protect themselves and to hurt the enemy.

Heck, I may even try a page at my little site to 'Fisk' his spoutings on the subject at rkka.org

Anyways, hadda vent. But I consider this subject important.
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 10:25 Comments || Top||

#5  All hail Rantburg U! I learn so much here not otherwise available to me in my sheltered little life. And I truly appreciate the gift of learning from you all, instead of the hard way.

Most sincerely, thank you.
Posted by: trailing wife || 09/04/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#6  "H&I fire"

I'm not familiar with this term, badanov. Harrassment and Interdiction, maybe?
Posted by: SteveS || 09/04/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||


Anecdotes on the Breslan seige
Pulled together from this article in the Age ...
On Friday, commandos stormed the building and battled militants as crying children, some naked and covered with blood, managed to flee through explosions and gunfire. They had endured more than two days during which the hostage takers herded them into the school gym, denied them food and water and threatened to kill them. Other children lay dead on stretchers lined up outside. During a hospital visit, a sombre Putin saw several of the victims, stopping to stroke the head of one injured child.

Russian authorities said the bloody end to the standoff came after explosions apparently set off by the militants - possibly by accident - as emergency workers were entering the school to collect the bodies of slain hostages. As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces - along with town residents who had brought their own weapons - opened covering fire to help the hostages escape. Commandos stormed into the building and secured it, then chased fleeing militants in the town, with shooting lasting for 10 hours.

An explosives expert told NTV television that the hostage takers, themselves strapped with explosives, hung bombs from basketball hoops in the gym and set other explosive devices in the building. Bomb experts are examining the building. The Federal Security Service chief in North Ossetia, Valery Andreyev, said that 10 militants killed in gunfights with security forces were from Arab countries, and Putin's adviser on Chechnya, Aslanbek Aslakhanov, said nine were "Arab mercenaries."
I still haven't seen it stated in English that one of the deaders was black...

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 2:37:22 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Friggen Bastards,What you have to say about this,Gentle.ROPMA!

What about you,Antiwar,these were not"Zionists" that were slaughtered,They were Russian children(probably Russian Orthodox Christians).Don't you think that everyone of these bastards and everyone associated with them should be huntted down and Drawn and Quartered?
Posted by: Raptor || 09/04/2004 8:50 Comments || Top||

#2  May favorite excerpt:

"As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces - along with town residents who had brought their own weapons - opened covering fire to help the hostages escape." (I don't think the LLL "anti-guns no-matter-what Michael Moore types" would get much of an audience over there.)

I hope there is an outpouring of support from here (and hopefully around the world), to rebuild the school. It would be a wonderful gesture from America, and in that part of the world, building a terrific and beautiful and inspiring modern school ( 3 links) could be built for less than half the cost of one here. It would be a thoughtful gift from America. If two in about every ten people in the US gave $1, it would be way more than enough to get the job done. Just a thought.

(Of course, adequate security would be a BIG issue. Another thing I really hate about Isamofacists--they don't want to build a good. productive life, and they don't want anyone else to either.)





Posted by: cingold || 09/04/2004 11:50 Comments || Top||

#3  Last post was from me, ex-lib, although I'm sure cingold would agree with me 100+ %.

(On second thought, I guess I oughta ask before I make such a claim--you know how those blood-sucking attorneys can be . . . )
Posted by: ex-lib || 09/04/2004 11:59 Comments || Top||

#4  Good idea ex-lib, a new school would be a nice touch.
Posted by: Shipman || 09/04/2004 12:36 Comments || Top||


Russia seals off North Ossetia
I saw the statement. He's pissed.
Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered security forces to seal off a southern region amid fears some Chechen hostage-takers may have escaped the storming of a siege school which killed at least 250 people. The storming of the school by Russian forces plunged the small town of Beslan into pandemonium. Troops and armed civilians advanced on the red brick building after explosions inside, as pupils, parents and teachers, many drenched in blood, were carried out on stretchers or in the arms of local men.
A scene of utmost barbarism...
The carnage was the latest of a series of calamities linked with savages Chechen separatists to strike Russia in the past week. "I have ordered Beslan to be sealed off, Ossetia's borders to be closed and checks to be carried out to find all people linked to the terrorist act," television showed Putin saying on a visit to the small town in the province of North Ossetia.
I'd be in favor of summary public execution, and I don't even live there...
The Interfax news agency quoted local health officials as saying at least 250 people were killed. Hundreds remained in hospital, 92 in serious condition. Officials said 27 hostage-takers had been killed and three taken alive. "I saw about 25 corpses in the schoolyard, which were not there yesterday," a Reuters witness said. "About 18 were in body bags lying in two rows. Six or seven were just outside a school window without body bags, all men without shirts." Some reports said some of the gunmen may have escaped.
We can only hope that's a temporary condition...

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 2:13:10 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1 
the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."
It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

Fucking assholes. FOAD.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 09/04/2004 2:35 Comments || Top||

#2  "Putin pledged a crackdown on anyone supporting the gunmen. "

They need to check the security personnel at checkpoints. The terrorists had to bribe their way through, no other way. Once the bribed are found, they need to be locked up for a long time. Exemplarily.
Posted by: Zarathustra || 09/04/2004 2:40 Comments || Top||

#3  "Anyone who will feels sympathetic toward such provocations will be viewed as accomplices of terrorists and terrorism."

I am going to add. Anyone meeting the above critera are my sworn foe from this date forward. If I have it in my power I will personally snuff out their evil worthless life. This is not a political or spritual difference. These evil cowards are a threat to all human kind and must be run to ground and killed.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/04/2004 2:41 Comments || Top||

#4  the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."

What asshole, what insensitive group of pigs, could put out such a piece of unmitigated shit at such a time. Or any time.

Whoever wrote this should be turned over to the people who lost their families to the barbarians.

They'll know what to do.
Posted by: RMcLeod || 09/04/2004 3:16 Comments || Top||

#5  Seal it off on one end, put infantry on the flanks, and drive every tank they have through every town they have, and blow up and flatten every Mosque there. And leave the body of the local Clerics on a hanging from gibbet made from the doorway in the middle of the rubble, with a ham in his mouth that was used to asphyxiate him before he was hung.

Yes I am that righteously angry.
Posted by: OldSpook || 09/04/2004 3:20 Comments || Top||

#6  skip righteous anger for a moment and look at it as stimulus and response. Currently, they perform an action (terrorism, blackmail, negotiation) and they get a response that usually benefits them.

If you want to discourage these guys, you react in such a way as to go against their goals.

The logical response is to round up all local moslems and either export them or execute them. Reduce the area under their control permanantly every time they act in an undesirable way.

It will take a few bloody examples, but it would solve the problem, unlike current methods.
Posted by: flash91 || 09/04/2004 3:50 Comments || Top||

#7  I sense a certain hardening of attitudes here.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 4:30 Comments || Top||

#8  Man O man, we need to get a lid on Iraq as of yesterday! By hook or by crook we need to bring down Iran AND Syria ASAP!

The EU is obviously ran by ignorant ass clowns! Their opinion means less than nothing!

Finish things in Iraq.

Re-elect W.

Get this crap over with!!!
Posted by: RJB in JC MO || 09/04/2004 7:38 Comments || Top||

#9  the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."
It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

Fucking assholes. FOAD.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut


Couldnt agree more Barbara . I'd like to add that they sap my will and strength to live in UK too :(
Posted by: MacNails || 09/04/2004 7:52 Comments || Top||

#10  I'll tell you how it could happen.Because the EU is run by a bunch of wimpy-ass,cowardly,Islamo-ass-kissing punks.What you want to bet this happens in France next?
Take the gloves off,seal off Chechneya and capture or kill every Moslem fanatic carrying a weapon,blow-up every building used to store weapons and material,deport everyone and they're extended familys suspected of suporting terrorists.Drop enough high-exploisive ordance to collapse the Pankisi Gorge,then bounce the rubble.
How in the Hell are you going to"nuance"this J."Friggin"Kerry,you POS?
Posted by: Raptor || 09/04/2004 9:10 Comments || Top||

#11  It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

America doesn't exactly have the high ground in accusations of appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists, you know. Not in the past, and not in the modern day either.

Talking about Wahabbism connections, your ally the USA-sucked-up and USA-appeased dictator of Saudi Arabia has done his own share of promotimg.

I'm afraid that using excuses of EU appeasement, can only plausibly work with Palestinian-related massacres.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 9:18 Comments || Top||

#12  Raptor> "Take the gloves off,"?

Oh, yeah -- and your belief that gloves had stayed on earlier is derived from what exactly?

Everything you suggest has ALREADY HAPPENED, AFAIK, AND MUCH MORE BESIDES -- except perhaps "deport everyone and their extended families suspected of supporting terrorists" since you don't seem to know that you have to have somewhere to deport people *to*, before you can deport them anywhere. Stalin used Siberia I believe, but that's not called "deporting" that's "relocating".

I'm tired of these cliches of the "the gloves must come off". The gloves were never worn in Chechenya people -- hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in indiscriminate bombing. What ever made you think that wasn't the case?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 9:26 Comments || Top||

#13  "hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in indiscriminate bombing"

Got a source for that, Aris? Or is this the same kind of accusation left-tools made against us in Vietnam, holy wisdom to Euros but a fucking lie to eyewitnesses, myself included. The population of Chechnya was less than a million in 1994 and the country is still inhabited at last report. How do you establish that bombing is "indiscriminate"? What standards and information are used in making this accusation of a war crime?

This business of sucking up to dictators is another moth-eaten lefty canard. Every country in the world must have some kind of contact with various regimes that it does not control. Only after the fact is this cherry-picked and selectively characterized with the useful Stalinist ambuity "support."

Ask 10 leftists who the dictator of Chile is.
Few will give a name but 9 of them will be sure there is one and that he is an American tool.

Castro has preached this shit since 1961, get a new line.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#14  Got a source for that, Aris?

Yeah, he's got a source for that. It's from kavkaz.org, a pro Chechen site, which got its info from a Russian human rights organization, which got its information from a pair of leftists writers who pull the numbers out their ass.

The truth is no one really knows how large or small the number of dead and displaced are in Chechnya. Those who claim they do usualy have a pro-Chechen ( or pro-murder ) point of view to press home.
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 9:52 Comments || Top||

#15  The Pankisi Gorge has not been collapsed btw, but such a thing is not impossible.

There are more practical measures that can be taken as well, involving action outside the immediate theater of operations. These were not possible earlier, but may be in the near future.

It is true that the chief instigators of Chechen Islamic terrorism have been under US protection. There is a strong probability that this will change, though we may never hear anything definite about it.

Putin's dealings with the Iranian mullahs give him quite a bit of leverage in this respect. It is conceivable, though not likely, that this was a significant reason for the Iranian nuclear deals in the first place----to provide a big bargaining chip when the time came.

I am ready to deal but the White House won't be until after November 3, and may never be if the election results are not favorable.

Your dismissal of the possibility of additional measures, Aris, lies not in facts, but in a politically induced failure of imagination.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 9:59 Comments || Top||

#16  Ignore Aris, he's a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual European intellectual. However, the Russian approach to Chechnya *has* been indiscriminate. They leveled Grosny with massed artillery, without evacuations, without mercy. It wasn't wrong because it was violent - it was wrong because it was unhelpful. The assholes retreated to the Pankisi and the hinterlands, and the people died.

Look, news like this leaves me sympathetic to genocides like Stalin or Milosovic, but it can't be the answer, if we want to remain ourselves. The clear answer would seem to be an American occupation of the Pankisi. A Russian invasion would cause a regional war; we already have a training cadre in Tbilisi, and we're on very good terms with the Georgian government.

OCSE claims that the Pankisi is empty, but I suspect that the Russians aren't in the mood to take them at their word. The real problem is that we don't really have mountain troops to spare, with the demands of Afghanistan in particular.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/04/2004 10:20 Comments || Top||

#17  Damn, I want to think up a response useful t o this conversation, but I'm to angry right now! I can only pray that the Russians hunt down every one of these "seperatists" and dump them in a pig pen before executing them.
Posted by: Charles || 09/04/2004 10:27 Comments || Top||

#18  I know how many dead there are in Chechnia, not enough. I expect that situation to be rectified in the near future.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 10:28 Comments || Top||

#19  "The population of Chechnya was less than a million in 1994 and the country is still inhabited at last report."

By about a half million now, I hear. http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/d79a17448cfa4a9e85256989005bba72?OpenDocument

One quarter or so left, the other quarter killed.

I have numerous sources giving a 200.000 civilian casualties figure (or more) (most of them due to bombing and missile campaign) but I'm not at all sure you'll accept them. Since the Russian government itself never acknowledges a single civilian casualty as collateral damage, most sources have to hypothesize based on either uncertain population data or on Chechen sources sympathetic to the separatism.

Ask 10 leftists who the dictator of Chile is. Few will give a name but 9 of them will be sure there is one and that he is an American tool.

Pinochet may no longer be in charge of Chile, but do you deny he was one of the dictators that had been supported by the USA?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 10:36 Comments || Top||

#20  AK: Pinochet may no longer be in charge of Chile, but do you deny he was one of the dictators that had been supported by the USA?

Do you also deny that Mao Zedong was one of the dictators supported by Europe, which established trading and diplomatic relations with Communist China decades before the US did? How about Communist Vietnam, which also received Europe's approbation way before the US?
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/04/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#21  When I was in *grade school* Aris! Hell, *your country* was run by a US-supported junta about the same time. You want to bring up Cyprus while you're talking about ancient history? How about the siege of Rhodes while we're at it? Maybe the Latin sack of Constantinople?

The question is what we need to do to keep the Russians from invading Georgia *right now*, and what we need to do to suppress the Chechnyan terrorists.

Russian military ineffectuality is a major problem. They've got the firepower to slaughter civilians and wreck countries, but they don't have the ability to secure their southern provinces, or detect and destroy small assault groups.

Russia needs a small, volunteer, professionalized army. With all the oil money they're raking in, you'd think they'd have the werewithal.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/04/2004 10:48 Comments || Top||

#22  That report is four years old. How is that a representation of what is going on in Chechnya?

And there are no, as in ZERO sources cited for any numbers that are presented, other than 'estimates'.

The PDFs say they counted 780,000 people but it also said that around 15 percent of the total population (150,000), MAY not have registered. That is not an insignifigant number. That accounts for a huge portion of the 200,000 you claim are dead.

So even if we assume innocently your claims of 200,00 dead are correct, where are the graves?

Aris, try again. This relief web site of yours also gets its numbers from an Islamic relief organization, not exactly a hallmark of humanitarianism. There is a genuine agenda at work and you are helping the agenda, being a part of the problem, and not being part of the solution.
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 10:55 Comments || Top||

#23  Ignore Aris, he's a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual European intellectual.

As opposed to you being a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual American *anti*-intellectual, you mean?

You've said exactly what I said, that the Russian approach was indiscriminate. That the gloves can't be "taken off" because they were never *on* in the first place. But when *I* mentioned that same fact I am a "pissy, ineffectual European intellectual" according to you.

Keep on playing in the kindergarten, Mitch. The only reason you saw fit to insult me for claiming exactly what you claimed, is that you didn't want to be seen *gasp* supporting my post.

Yeah, Mrs. Davis -- the Russians will need to hold hostage some Chechen schools in order to even the scales, quite clearly. Better yet they can turn them to concentration camps. Haha, mass murder is *so* funny.

And badanov, you've already established your contempt for human rights organizations since ofcourse they are always biased against genocidal extermination. No need to repeat it.

I thank you for kavkaz.org -- I didn't know about it, and sites about Caucasus are always useful.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 10:58 Comments || Top||

#24  No humor intended Aris. Sometimes that's how probelms get resolved. I suspect this is one of them.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/04/2004 11:04 Comments || Top||

#25  When I was in *grade school* Aris! Hell, *your country* was run by a US-supported junta about the same time

Pinochet lasted until the late 1980s if I remember correctly. And yeah, most Greeks haven't forgiven the US for what happened 30 years ago either -- but it wasn't me who brought Pinochet up in this thread, it was other people that talked about Chilean dictators.

And Zhang Fei, "trading and diplomatic relationships" with dictators are dime and dozen today and elsewhen (do you deny that USA has trading and diplomatic relationships *now* with China?).

Actual support, aka propping them up, or helping overthrow the earlier democratic regime, is a different thing.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 11:06 Comments || Top||

#26  I brought up Pinochet because he is a favorite club with which lefty propagandists and Hate America bigots attempt to beat us. What did our "support" of Pinochet consist of, Aris? Do you have any idea?
We had to choose between leaving Pinochet in power, after he had gained it, and recognizing his government, or openly intervening to remove him, probably in favor of a second Castro. How would that have played out in the lefty media?

The Left itself supported the previous dictator, Salvador Allende. Though democratically elected (by an electoral minority) Allende had thrown the rule of law and the Chilean Constitution in the garbage in favor of a street revolution by the communist mobs who supported him. This of course, is unknown to communist sympathizers and ignored by their shills.

Most of the time when lefties demonize our "support" for dictators, they mean our recognition of another country's sovereignty when the left would prefer that we disregard it, or our failure to actively support communist revolutionaries who offered the only alternative.

In any case, Pinochet was hardly in the same league as any number of leftist dictators we definitely did not support and most pointedly, not with Saddam Hussein, whom the Euro left defends with fanatical devotion, and who would still be in power if Euro-left positions were taken seriously at all in the US.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#27  "What did our "support" of Pinochet consist of, Aris? "

Here you go Atomic Conspiracy -- CIA acknowledged: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/

"openly intervening to remove him, probably in favor of a second Castro."

Had Allende outlawed multiparty democracy? Oops, no, it was Pinochet that did that!! Nice!
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:14 Comments || Top||

#28  changing topic is Aris's favorite way of deflecting his guilt
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 12:20 Comments || Top||

#29  Most of the time when lefties demonize our "support" for dictators, they mean our recognition of another country's sovereignty when the left would prefer that we disregard it, or our failure to actively support communist revolutionaries who offered the only alternative.

You'd like that, wouldn't you? But no it's not mere neutrality towards a regime that most "lefties" I know of are labelling as US support for a dictatorship.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:21 Comments || Top||

#30  Aris uses morality like a sock-puppet, not feeling himself bound by any particular code that would call for REAL consistency: He bitches and moans about us when we supported Saddam, ignoring the fact that the EU Countries and Russia sold him more arms than the United States did, and he bitches and moans when we take him out and leaving Russia and France holding IOUs. He's probably pissed that France will cover the gap by hitting up the EU, which means he'll get hit with the expenses.

*yawns* How many bet that, when the ChiComs let down the hammer on their populace and we have to go to war with them, he'll bitch THEN about why we didn't give a peace and trade policy a chance, and totally ignore that he's just condemned a peace and trade policy we're pursuing with them NOW.

Seems that his policy of making the moral dead-weight of past mistakes invalidate any attempt to correct them applies only to Americans, and never to a Now-I'm-an-EU/Now-I'm-a-Greek citizen.
Posted by: Ptah || 09/04/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#31  Unlike asshole bastards such as yourself Frank (remember the whole "cunt" stalking of yours and Crawford?) when the topic changes in threads I participate in it's because the thread has already gone there by others, or because people choose to attack me over non-related topics.

By the way Atomic Conspiracy, here's from CIA itself: http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/#19
"After Allende’s election and before his inauguration, the CIA, under 40 Committee direction, made an effort—in coordination with the Embassy in Santiago—to encourage Chilean businesses to carry out a program of economic disruption."

"In May and June 1975, elements within the CIA recommended establishing a paid relationship with Contreras to obtain intelligence based on his unique position and access to Pinochet. This proposal was overruled, citing the US Government policy on clandestine relations with the head of an intelligence service notorious for human rights abuses. However, given miscommunications in the timing of this exchange, a one-time payment was given to Contreras. "

"Nevertheless, some clandestine contacts of the CIA were involved in human rights abuses. The CIA, at the direction of and with the full concurrence of senior US policymakers, maintained official contacts with various security services. At the same time, the CIA maintained clandestine contacts with selected members of the Chilean military, intelligence and security forces, both to collect intelligence and carry out the covert actions described above. There is no doubt that some CIA contacts were actively engaged in committing and covering up serious human rights abuses."
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#32  Aris thinks we're all "pissy, ineffectual American anti-intellectuals," unless we agree with him. And he sure does change the topic when he feels the heat.

"Aris uses morality like a sock-puppet, not feeling himself bound by any particular code that would call for REAL consistency . . ." Quite true. As an avowed "secularist" (which, from what I've read in his particular posts, is a very narrowly-scoped position) he has no higher plane of morality to guide him--so he adhere's to whatever is, at the time, most expedient in an achieving his vision of a world-wide "Secular State." Interestingly, his posts are consistently anti-American, which is funny since America is one of the few countries which would support his right to his fringe views. Too bad he's can't do that for the "non-seculars" he so despises.
Posted by: ex-lib || 09/04/2004 12:37 Comments || Top||

#33  "He bitches and moans about us when we supported Saddam, ignoring the fact that the EU Countries and Russia sold him more arms than the United States did,"

I don't remember ever bitching about USA supporting Saddam, and I certainly never excluded Russia or the rest of the West from any blame. Is this another one of your lies about me Ptah? You've repeatedly LIED about me, so I think this is just one more case of that -- unless it's a case where you are just suffering from delusions. But feel free to provide the posts where I ever said the US had more of a blame in supporting Saddam than France or Russia did. I doubt you'll ever find one, you LIAR.

As for your wild guesses about what I will do in the future, they are just as insane as you are. When you show yourself a liar about what I've done in the past, don't even try to condemn me about what you think I'll do in the future -- you are listening too much to the echoes of your own head to have ever heard a single word I ever said about *any* issue.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:38 Comments || Top||

#34  Of course American influence on Greek affairs last century was, on balance, negative. Without the US they'd be living happily within a Turkish, Nazi or Communist paradise today, and would never have had to endure those unforgivably hellish years of Greek military dictatorship. Why on earth shouldn't Greeks regard America with righteous anger? It's not as though they owe Americans anything.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/04/2004 12:40 Comments || Top||

#35  And as a sidenote Ptah, that I'm both a citizen of both EU and Greece is a statement of fact, not a statement of either opinion, belief or political inclinations. My ID card states Greek citizenship, by treaty that means I'm also a EU citizen as seen by the passport I carry. But I'm not surprised you see a problem with that -- you probably don't understand how Bush can be both Texan and American either.

Aris thinks we're all "pissy, ineffectual American anti-intellectuals," unless we agree with him.

Not at all. I think that only people that whine about "pissy ineffectual European intellectuals" are "pissy ineffectual American anti-intellectuals".

As an avowed "secularist" (which, from what I've read in his particular posts, is a very narrowly-scoped position) he has no higher plane of morality to guide him

Not at all. I'm a moral absolutist, far more so than most Christians I've ever seen, most of whom seem to think that "right" is whatever will get them into heaven and "wrong" is whatever will get them into hell.

And my guiding principles can be summarized in one sentence -- right is whatever promotes the well-being of sentient life.

"Interestingly, his posts are consistently anti-American,

No, my posts are consistently pro-human. People who think that only American or only Christian lives matter, or people who are willing to support Latin American dictatorships, or people who are willing to support torturing innocents, are ofcourse sure to find error with them.

That despite the fact that I've repeatedly mentioned how USA has been a generally positive factor in world affairs. The only reason you call me anti-American is that I also repeatedly failed to grant your nation absolute sainthood or to forget its past crimes.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#36  Oh, by the way - congrats on getting through the Olympics without any major incidents. I didn't think the Greeks would pull it off. I was wrong.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/04/2004 12:52 Comments || Top||

#37  Bulldog> And without the French, America may never have gone independent.

But either way I never called the Anti-americanism of most Greeks "righteous". Had it been "righteous" for reasons of junta-support, that anger would have also been directed to the Greek Orthodox establishment that likewise supported the junta -- had it been righteous for reasons of imperialism or support of dictatorships, it would have also been directed to Serb and other fellow Orthodox fascists.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 12:58 Comments || Top||

#38  I hate to unsettle a running battle, Aris, but this thread is about Russia, not Chile. I don't care who started it.
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 13:13 Comments || Top||

#39  Seriously Aris, you really have problem of grabbing the wheel and driving the debate into the ditch. We are talking about Russia. If you want to discuss the merits of ineffectual Europeans (pissy or not), I suggest you start another thread.
Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/04/2004 13:25 Comments || Top||

#40  Your quotes are incomplete and contextually misleading, Aris, as we might expect.

"In January 1974 CIA issued a directive to all CIA staff to collect clandestine information on torture in Chile; this message directed CIA staff to work through all available agents and channels of influence to induce the Chilean Government to modify repressive measures, particularly to eliminate torture. CIA actively used its contacts, especially with members of services notorious for human rights abuses, to emphasize that human rights abuses were detrimental to the government’s credibility within their own country, damaging to their international reputation, and unacceptable to the US Government. In some cases, such contacts enabled the CIA to obtain intelligence on human rights abuses that would not have otherwise been available." (same link as yours)


The last sentence refers in particular to "Operation Condor" a multinational cooperative effort by several South American dictatorships to suppress dissent. The CIA, according to this report, got most of its information about this from the same Manuel Contreras mentioned in your second quote. It is obvious from context that Contreras was a spy, spying on the Pinochet regime for the CIA, and that his involvement in human rights abuses was in spite of, rather because of, his relationship with the CIA:
"From the start, the CIA made it clear to Contreras was that it would not support any of his activities or activities of his service which might be construed as “internal political repression.” In its contacts with Contreras, the CIA urged him to adhere to a 17 January 1974 circular, issued by the Chilean Ministry of Defense, spelling out guidelines for handling prisoners in a manner consistent with the 1949 Geneva Convention."

"The relationship, while correct, was not cordial and smooth, particularly as evidence of Contreras’ role in human rights abuses emerged. In December 1974, the CIA concluded that Contreras was not going to improve his human rights performance. However, Contreras’ assistance in the first quarter of 1975 in gaining the release of some PDC members who had been arrested and mistreated by another Chilean security service offered small hope that he would use his influence to end abuses. In retrospect, however, Contreras’ role in this effort probably reflected interservice rivalry and Contreras’ personal efforts to control the entire Chilean intelligence apparatus."


On the whole, the report strongly refutes allegations of US participation in, control over, or even approval of, serious human rights abuses.

Contreras was not a nice man. So what? Spies are not usually nice people. This very case, incidentally, was a significant factor in the institution of stringent vetting standards for CIA contacts, spies that is, that have made it so difficult for us to recruit such spies in recent years. How do you recruit a source inside a terrorist gang, for example, if the source is not, himself, a terrorist?
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 13:26 Comments || Top||

#41  On another note ya'll did put on a nice show last month during the Olympics.
Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/04/2004 13:26 Comments || Top||

#42  Speaking of Russia, I will cheerfully admit that we supported their worst dictator, Joseph Stalin, to the tune of 14 billion dollars during the Second World War, and that much of this consisted of actual weapons and other bad stuff.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 13:31 Comments || Top||

#43  Atomic Conspiracy> You supported Stalin in the war against Hitler, you didn't support his dictatorship itself, you didn't intentionally create the conditions that would cause him to come into power.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#44  Putin, I think, does have to recognize that he is part of a global effort if he is to get a grip on this. The nuclear deals with Iran are an important stumbling block, but not the only one. There is also the lingering bitterness in Russia over the NATO attack on Serbia in 1999. This is actually harder to deal with since it is not Putin's attitude that counts, but that of the Russian people.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 13:44 Comments || Top||

#45  Nevertheless, our aid did benefit Stalin's dictatorship and prevent its overthrow, because the alternative was far worse.
It was a strategic move in a war against totalitarianism, as was our involvment in Chile.
Closer to home (yours I mean), the US also supported another communist dictator, Tito, during the 1950s and it is very likely that we did create the conditions for his accession to power. For the very same reasons.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||

#46  From what I know Allende wasn't totalitarian or atleast haven't *proven* himself such at all -- and you nonetheless intentionally helped cause his overthrow. The CIA link I gave you above says how much USA was involved in attempting his overthrow (no care about sovereignty then) -- but once the Pinochet dictatorship came along everything was suddenly all about Chilean "sovereignty". What bull.

The Allende democracy was worse than the Pinochet dictatorship? Why?

USA may have generally supported democracy in Europe (with some notable exceptions) but in Latin America it was totalitarianism that the USA was defending.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 14:14 Comments || Top||

#47  Good post AC. Aris, sometimes yes, we have to choose between two evils. The idea being knock off the greater first, then work on the second. Why do you have a problem with that shit-head?
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi || 09/04/2004 14:32 Comments || Top||

#48  An actual majority of Chileans had voted against Allende and clearly disapproved of his policies of confiscation and mob rule.
Criticizing us for not overthrowing Pinochet is bull. Why would we do the communists' work for them? That is typical of lefty activists, though, all action by every government must serve their objectives or it is somehow illegal, immoral or otherwise illegitimate.
Pinochet's state was a long way from "totalitarian", in stark contrast to the Cuban-style worker's paradise Allende obviously intended to establish once he finished dismantling the rule of law. Pinochet set up a free economy; unlike communists, he did not demand that all forms of expression support state goals, he did not regiment the lives of the people, and he did not foment revolution in neighboring countries.
"but in Latin America it was totalitarianism that the USA was defending."
Fidel Castro has the only totalitarian state in Latin America. This did not happen by accident.

Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 14:32 Comments || Top||

#49  Aris is correct in noting that our government gave Pinochet and his generals active support in their revolution against Allende. That's pretty well documented.

We did it because we didn't like what we were seeing -- Allende was in the process of killing the democratic process in Chile so as to substitute a dictatorship of the proletariat. There was increasing lawlessness, moves by the local communists to take over, and subversion and murder of the opposition, all approved by Allende. The Left today likes to make Allende look like a hapless saint, kind of a bumbling do-gooder, when the truth is, he knew exacly what he was doing and on what horse he was riding.

So, Aris, we took the lesser of two evils. The good thing about Pinochet was that he listened to enlightened economists (e.g., Milton Friedman) and worked to build a thriving Chilean economy. That in turn led to a restoration of democracy. The bad thing about Pinochet was that he had no qualms about engaging in some murder and torture, and we looked the other way.

That's international power politics for you.
Posted by: Steve White || 09/04/2004 14:33 Comments || Top||

#50  In fact Aris, that last statement shows you to be a vicious totalitarian liar on the same level as Joseph Goebbels. I have responded to your slander as politely as possible, but I am finished now. Take your communist inspired propaganda and murder-inciting Castro bullshit and shove it.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 14:35 Comments || Top||

#51  "An actual majority of Chileans had voted against Allende"

You, supporter of Bush, are gonna use *that* argument? Allende had the majority of the votes. He didn't have the *absolute* majority, meaning that if you grouped together the second and the third party then *together* they'd get more votes than the first party. He was nonetheless democratically elected according to the constitution of Chile. The legality is not in dispute.

Atomic Conspiracy, your failure to acknowledge the FACT that during the Cold War the USA did indeed more often supported fascism in Latin America than democracy, also shows you for the revisionist fascist that you are.

Steve, I'd like references for those murder by Allende that you mentioned also.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 15:21 Comments || Top||

#52  Unlike asshole bastards such as yourself Frank (remember the whole "cunt" stalking of yours and Crawford?) when the topic changes in threads I participate in it's because the thread has already gone there by others, or because people choose to attack me over non-related topics

Aris, from the protection provided by America and Nato over the last century, snipes at the heels of Amerikkka like the chihuahua he is ...you divert threads to divert attention from the fact Greece hasn't done anything to protect interests not their own in how long? Your choosing of Pinochet etc. in a post on Ossetia is proof. You love dictatorships of the left, and the EU will be a fitting place for your demise as a cuntry (oooooohhhh!). In the words of Sgt. Hulka: Lighten up, Francis!
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 15:30 Comments || Top||

#53  Aris, I consider myself myself pretty liberal on most issues. But you, my non-friend, are emberrasing the fuck out of the rest of us. get your head out of your ass and go read some history books for gods sakes. And no, I'm not talking about Zeus.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi || 09/04/2004 15:41 Comments || Top||

#54  When communists, I'm sorry, comments are so far off topic as to be a platform for Aris Katsaris forums TM, I recommend that he, and Zen, not only be deleted, but banned as well.

Kripsaris, you are one sanctimonious, pea brained tape recorder; we have all heard this, time and time again, from our own Marxist, narcissistic, overpaid, Hollyweird, Leftist citizenry.

So tell me, you filthy aparatchek, why is Marxism, (oh sorry, its now only permitted to refer to it as "transprogressive unnaturalism" now) , in decline in this hemisphere, and on the march in your hemisphere ? Hmmm?

Give my regards to the other Bot. Don't forget to get some fresh batteries, you miserable machine.

P.S. I'd watch my back if I were you, not mention your cake hole, and your cornhole: Paranoia has been known to scientifically influence reality negatively on those with a tragic devotion to it.

So long Sucker(s)!
Posted by: Annie War || 09/04/2004 15:48 Comments || Top||

#55  Fuck you, Frank. If your disregard for truth wasn't such, you would have known that it wasn't me who chose to mention Chile's dictator.

Lil Dhimmi, if you support Pinochet or the dictators of Brazil or the dictators of Nicaragua or *any* of the dictators of Cuba (either left-wing or right-wing), then I'm not "one of you". So you can feel relief at no longer needing to feel embarrassed of me. I quite easily disassosiate myself from those supporters of dictators that overthrew *democracies* -- unlike how some people want to present it.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 15:53 Comments || Top||

#56  P.S. I'd watch my back if I were you, not mention your cake hole, and your cornhole

Why? Are you drooling over them? I don't give a rats ass what you say about Aris, but leave Zen out of this. Zen has made more than his fair contribution here, without having to hear the dog shit coming out of your mouth.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi || 09/04/2004 15:55 Comments || Top||

#57  Hmmm. Maybe I just have to get to know you better Aris.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi || 09/04/2004 15:57 Comments || Top||

#58  ty very much Aris
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 15:59 Comments || Top||

#59  So tell me, you filthy aparatchek, why is Marxism, (oh sorry, its now only permitted to refer to it as "transprogressive unnaturalism" now), in decline in this hemisphere, and on the march in your hemisphere? Hmmm?

You've got it backwards. It's in decline in *this* hemisphere (all of East Europe abandoned it), and on the march in yours (Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil possibly -- with extremely left-wing Castro-sympathizers in command).

As for why: Carmic justice. East Europe was forced to try communist totalitarianism and didn't like it and has now rejected it. Latin America was forced to try right-wing fascism and didn't like it much either, and so now the whole of Latin America has inevitably gone antiAmerican: which benefits left-wing fascisms a great deal. Not having the Soviet Union anymore is an obstacle to full-out dictatorships ofcourse.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 15:59 Comments || Top||

#60  here's the Aris thread exit ramp:

America doesn't exactly have the high ground in accusations of appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists, you know. Not in the past, and not in the modern day either.

Talking about Wahabbism connections, your ally the USA-sucked-up and USA-appeased dictator of Saudi Arabia has done his own share of promotimg.

I'm afraid that using excuses of EU appeasement, can only plausibly work with Palestinian-related massacres.


moral equivalence in a terrorist thread? I let the jury decide
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 16:02 Comments || Top||

#61  Carmic justice. East Europe was forced to try communist totalitarianism and didn't like it and has now rejected it. Latin America was forced to try right-wing fascism and didn't like it much either, and so now the whole of Latin America has inevitably gone antiAmerican: which benefits left-wing fascisms a great deal.

Ahhh our greek now has the insight of all of South America. Incorrectly. Again
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 16:04 Comments || Top||

#62  The European Union has demanded an explanation from Russia on how the “tragedy” in Beslan could have happened

From the same EU that claims Aris as a member. What intellectuals!
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 16:07 Comments || Top||

#63  Ahhh our greek now has the insight of all of South America. Incorrectly.

I hear Panama likes you. Ofcourse it's one of the extremely few places in the Latin America where the last US intervention was in favour of democracy.

Other than that I've heard it again and again, including in Rantburg but elsewhere as well -- that Latin American hostility for the US is second only to that of the Arabs.

And Frank, that post of mine was in direct response to Barbara ofcourse. As for what the "EU" has demanded, that was the rotating Dutch presidency, not one of the EU's permanent instruments, if that makes any difference to you.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 16:14 Comments || Top||

#64  Well, given that the search function of Rantburg doesn't encompass comments, and given the propensity of Aris to drive topics off topic, I suppose he'd be safe in his accusation that I'm lying about him, since nothing he says is worth me keeping an independent database to keep track of when, where, and what he said. "Striving after wind" is how the Scriptures would describe THAT value-free project.

Then again, he MAY be right: He sounds so much like a troll, and we DID have a lot of trolls about at that time, that I may have conflated his continual opportunistic sniping at Bush's diplomatic attempts to "Legitimize" the War with their ravings. They all DO tend to sound alike, don't they?

My reference to now-Greek/Now EU stems from times when he plays the greek patriot injured by America when it was advantageous to him, only to transform to the Model EU citizen totally untouchable by the follibles of his natal country if it meant losing face or an argument. It's a "play in the small" of the way the member nations of the EU "play in the large".

The day that Greece in the EU can be compared to Texas in the United States will be the day the EU will have a REAL constitution that doesn't need to kill a tree to print, in which Greece gives up its UN Seat to a single EU seat, and France turns its Security Council seat over to an EU rep. Even then, the question of whether Greeks will feel about 3/11 happening in Madrid in the same way Texans (And Georgians) felt when 9/11 befell New Yorkers, much less ACT like them, remains to be seen. Heck, by then, the EU Army just might be able to stand up to the Texas Rangers, National Guard, and General Militia longer than 48 hours.

My conjecture on how Aris would jump in the event of a Sino-American war was a poffered bet that had nothing at all to do with his beliefs on how China should be handled, but was based on observations of his knee-jerk prejudices combined with the unique attitude apparently held by Progressive Europeans that they don't have any, leading to the reasonably safe bet that by the time things DO go boom over there (after 2014, I hazard), he wouldn't have shaken any of them.
Posted by: Ptah || 09/04/2004 17:07 Comments || Top||

#65  Darn. I forgot to add "...after they stop laughing." after "48 hours"

Preview is my friend...
Posted by: Ptah || 09/04/2004 17:10 Comments || Top||

#66  Here is the 'unofficial' Aris thread exit ramp...

Ready?

*Ahem*

How 'bout them Sooners?
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 17:16 Comments || Top||

#67  channeling Aris: obviously the OK sooners displaced Indians who were living in environmental harmony with a land they....

Channeling Frank: they're running up the middle on a soft UCLA front and LB corps...
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 17:21 Comments || Top||

#68  Mr Aris, I'm not impressed with the pieties you display as to the minutia of "who got done wrong" and I'm not fooled by your attempts to use it as cover for what amounts to a complete void, when it comes to the character you lack in the fight for justice: Allende had to go, forcefully, as did Castro, (but see what half measures have availed the United States (This Hemisphere) vis a vis our Cuban brothers?), ditto LuLu, Chavez.
When Marxists come to power, elections start disappearing, or the fix is in, as in Venusuela's recall of Chavez. Thats what Chile was about. That's what Hungary 1956 was about. And so on.

The origins of your sickness is akin to that of the muslim extremeist: you rack up a list of the sins of others; but you can't see through the beam in your own eye. Do you literally have to go to (an) America(n blog) in order to proseletize? Or is proseletizing still ok in Eurabia as long as it praises the name of the sacred EU?

And don't get me started on France where it is illegal.

P.S. Ditto Florida 2000. Where the only votes not counted were those of American Military Service Personnel: those at sea or at foreign posts or who were otherwise stationed in Florida; invalidated by one of your leftist hack judges. This pivotal election, decided by 537 Islamic voters, who, ironically, as it turned out, voted for Algore precisely and only because his running mate is a Jew. And yet, to this very day, we still listen as you and your kind slander our president, claiming he "stole" an election. When, since the inception of this nation, the Democrat Party has cheated in elections since Aaron Burr, Tammany Hall, The St Louis machine, Richard Dalys Chicago, Lyndon Johnsons Johnson County, Algore et al, you still drone on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country, and how forming pyramids is frightening the children, and Taray Molinas, Taray Molinas, Tax cuts for the Rich, Tax Cuts for the Rich, Bush carved, people starved, Selected not elected.? You make me sick, we've no time for this petty score keeping.

If you think we are not, or shouldn't be angry at the organized crime (with massive PR) that is the Left (Marxism) in this world, then you've got another goddamn thing coming.

Your days of electing your leaders is numbered, if not gone already. We saved your asses in two world wars, and you still don't get it. Your dark continent fights world wars, world wars, not for democracy and individual human rights, but to destroy them. (I recognize and express my gratitude to The Greek Nation that fought Na So Germany so valiantly, but afterwards....) You fought these wars to decide only what kind of socialism, and in whose name it would be. And afterwards, when you were free and chose it, we protected you from the Soviet Union.

If you set the bar so high, and expect to see perfection in Mankind, and not in God, then there is where your problem originates.

Germany concluded after they lost their National Socialist War, that it is wrong to fight. And now that Europe's nations have no armies (protected by the U.S. and NATO), You have decided that it must be wrong to actually stand ready and be prepared to fight evil.

No, we will not protect your mainland this time, but we will destroy the cancer that threatens to invade, that has seeped into your continent

No thanks is necessary; didn't expect it anyway
Posted by: Annie War || 09/04/2004 17:52 Comments || Top||

#69  now THAT'S a rant LOL
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 17:56 Comments || Top||

#70  Ptah, if I'm not significant enough to remember what I actually said, then I beg you to let me be *in*significant enough to not *mis*remember what I've actually said either.

But right now it seems I'm occupying the worst of both worlds for you -- I'm important enough to you to attack me for what you think I've said in the past, but I'm not important enough to be attacked for what I've *actually* said myself rather than the stuff that you think I've said.

In short: Please don't ever again claim I've said something, unless you can provide a link. Because you've never *ever* gotten it right.

Annie> "When Marxists come to power, elections start disappearing, or the fix is in, as in Venusuela's recall of Chavez." Rrright. And so your solution against the mere *possibility* of future lack of elections is to install dictatorships that will make said future lack of elections a complete certainty.

"Thats what Chile was about. That's what Hungary 1956 was about"

Indeed -- in both cases a certain superpower crushed a certain democracy. You can add Czechoslovakia (USSR) and Brazil (USA) to that list.

"And yet, to this very day, we still listen as you and your kind slander our president, claiming he "stole" an election."

Yeah, well I'm quite sure that I've never said Bush stole the election either. So here's more slander against me on your part.

"you still drone on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country, "

Um, who is Mr. Smith? Dude, I don't even know what you are talking about. You've just gone about as wacko as ex-lib did yesterday about gay right.

"If you set the bar so high, and expect to see perfection in Mankind, and not in God, then there is where your problem originates."

Um, what? Who ever expected to see perfection in Mankind?

"And now that Europe's nations have no armies (protected by the U.S. and NATO), You have decided that it must be wrong to actually stand ready and be prepared to fight evil."

Yeah, that's why I'll have to go myself to the army next year, because Europe's nations have no armies. Another brilliant guess on your part.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 18:25 Comments || Top||

#71  BTW, since at least 10 of the Chechen "rebel separatist" were in fact Saudi, what are the chances that Russia unilaterally, or with a mutilateral combination, vivisections Saudi Arabia in a similar way these "militant insurgient freedom fighters" did to women, children, men and babies in Beslan? Since Russia might be inclined to decide the involvment of Saudi constitutes an act of war?

Also, when three or more participants in an election fails to win a majority in an election, a run-off election is called for. This flaw in American Federal elections resulted in Bill Clintons only receiving a plurality, not a majority in two elections. A run-off election might have prevented this lack of majority mandate, that resulted in Billy Dale, Waco, FBI files, Elian, etc.

As for Allende, a majority did not elect him president. So a run-off was called for.
Posted by: an dalusian dog || 09/04/2004 18:29 Comments || Top||

#72  well Aris, I congratulate you on your committment (without sarcasm) and hope reality intrudes (w/ Sarcasm).
Posted by: Frank G || 09/04/2004 18:31 Comments || Top||

#73  I wish this super power had come to the aid of Hungary in 1956; after all, they were ruthlessly crushed only for their right to hold elections

Soviet Union signed the warsaw pact with garauntees that nations of eastern Europe were free to hold elections.

If the U.S. had come to the Aid of Hungary in 1956, the useful idiots of the western left would have screamed !Bloody Murder!that it was in fact we who were violating the Warsaw Pact Borders. They didn't want to see an end to the Soviet Union . How Sad ...How very, very Sad...*Sniff* But I certainly wish that we had. Then maybe no Czechloslovakia 1968,

but so much for the word of Communists. North Vietnam signed a treaty in 1973, revoked it in 1975 when they invaded South Vietnam; When a commie gives his word, its only to buy time, and wait for the weakness to set in. The Democrat controlled American Congress stood by and voted down any assistance and did nothing to enforce the by then, worthless document signed by the North Vietnamese communists. And the march of two communist regimes, in Cambodia, and South Vietnam lead to another 3 or 4 million more dead. By the most common form of Comunist evil execution: worked and starved to death.

that brings the total to somewhere around 150-200 million or so, killed in the name of Atheistic regimes.

No greater killer in non-muslim civilization than Atheistic regimes. And no greater killer of Muslims than Islam itself.
Posted by: Annie War || 09/04/2004 19:03 Comments || Top||

#74  Annie War Partially hit the nail on the head regarding Aris' attitude toward humanity. He proclaims his arguments are "pro-human", and he IS right that he does not expect to see perfection in Mankind, but it sure seems to me that the demand for perfection and flawless execution in foreign affairs and military execution is being placed on SOME of mankind: I.e. America and her allies. Seems to be the tenor of most of the objectionable comments, in one form or another. He IS telling the truth, if one takes his (implied) denial as a statement that he expects it from ALL of mankind.

I AM, however, kicking myself in not preserving the link to his comment that he was leaving Rantburg and never coming back. However, it seems the "still small voice" I heard telling me to not delete his poison pen letter of May 24, was spot on as usual, since it helped me locate the relevant post with the only comment he made worth remembering (#14).
Posted by: Ptah || 09/04/2004 19:14 Comments || Top||

#75  I could have given that link to you if you'd asked. This has been mentioned before: I changed my mind and came back: Oh, the horror of it.

By "pen letter" you mean e-mail I assume? First time I heard it referred as such.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 20:26 Comments || Top||

#76  Equivalency: Brazil=Communist Hungary
What a joke.
Ari, my point in citing Allende's lack of a majority was not to dispute the legality of his election, but to emphasize that his party's extra-legal "street revolution" afterward was not in any sense a popular or democratic action as he and his foreign apologists claimed. This, not his election, was the cause of the coup.
It was Steve, not I, who linked Allende directly to murder. I don't know about this except that the "Plan Z" documents attributed to him were determined to be a hoax. There were many deaths during the chaos he instigated before the coup and he was reasonably culpable for these, however.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/04/2004 20:34 Comments || Top||

#77  I hope you do know I was talking about the dictatorship of Brazil that overthrew Goulart, not Brazil in general.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/04/2004 21:13 Comments || Top||

#78  Uhmm...

How 'bout them 'pokes?
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 21:29 Comments || Top||


More on Chechen ties to al-Qaeda
THE links between Chechen rebels and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda go back to the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist-training camps of Afghanistan. For the Chechen rebels, this was more a marriage of convenience than a meeting of religious soulmates. After Russian troops poured into Chechnya in 1994 to crush the anarchic republic, Chechen fighters put up a furious resistance in the streets of Grozny, killing hundreds of Russian troops in vicious house-to-house fighting.

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 1:46:44 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I don't by this I think AQ supports and fights with the Chechen Islamists. AQ uses Chechen attacks in their recruting videos. Who the hell were the "10 Arabs" at the intfantcide and where did they come from? Santa didn't drop them off.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/04/2004 2:11 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Several Taliban killed in failed Khost attack
Several Taliban fighters were killed in a firefight with Afghan security forces in Khost, the US military said on Friday. "Several anti-coalition militants were killed and two members of the Khost provincial forces were injured in a firefight last night in Khost province," US military said. An Afghan security officer said three Taliban were killed and one captured while two of his own men had been wounded in the fighting in Gurboz district. A Taliban spokesman said five troops were killed and three Taliban fighters were wounded.

In a separate attack, rockets were fired in the eastern city of Jalalabad on Friday and an Afghan woman and child were slightly wounded. One of the rockets hit the premises of a Swedish aid organisation but no aid workers were hurt, a security coordinator for aid groups said.

Also, at least one man was killed and four wounded late on Friday when a bomb exploded in Kandahar. US forces hunting Taliban and al-Qaeda have a large base at Kandahar's airport, but the explosion happened in a crowded central part of the city, which was once a Taliban stronghold. General Salim Khan, the deputy police chief, said a Russian-made jeep packed with explosives went off as the taxi was passing on a street in the Jaikhoja area of the city. The taxi driver was killed and his two passengers were hurt. Separately, a US patrol in the same province was fired on by Taliban travelling in a pickup truck, and an American 'copter fired back, destroying the truck and killing one militant.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 1:39:40 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Caucasus
Breslan corpse count now at 250
The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials said the toll was at least 250. Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said. Sixty-two hours after the hostage drama began during a celebration marking the first day of the school year, the Russian government said resistance had ended. Bomb experts and rescuers looking for victims resumed their search of the building Saturday after a break overnight.

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling || 09/04/2004 1:30:04 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Islam's Newest Victims - Babies!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 09/04/2004 00:01 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Ain't new, unfortunately. Just ask the Israelis.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 09/04/2004 0:25 Comments || Top||

#2  God is TRULY great
Virgins guaranteed!
Posted by: BigEd || 09/04/2004 0:27 Comments || Top||

#3  Come now, this had to be a Zionist plot where Moslems were used as willing actors, for no one but Israel could be the beneficiary of such publicity.
Posted by: UFO || 09/04/2004 0:36 Comments || Top||

#4  Barb, you are fully correct. I know Israel more than any other nation on Earth has been confronting & greatly suffering at the blood stained hands of the Islamic death cultists.

News reports indicate imported al-Qa'ida trained Arabs were among some of the killed hostage taking killers at the school in southern Russia, which sets up a new & barbaric method of targeting children & schools since the cowards could never beat an army in the field of battle.

The closer this September 11th approches the more sickeningly desperate the jihadits will display themselves for the whole world to view.

We hope the sight of reality might even wake up a few in the Kerry camp.....
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 09/04/2004 0:43 Comments || Top||

#5 
ITAR-Tass said Basayev received funding for the attack from an alleged al-Qaida operative, Abu Omar as-Saif.
.
This might be Nasser Osama Mustafa, the Egyptian imam of the Via Quaranta mosque in Milan.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 09/04/2004 0:52 Comments || Top||

#6  Mark Espinola:
News reports indicate imported al-Qa'ida trained Arabs were among some of the killed hostage taking killers
Yes, I had read that. Quelle surprise.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 09/04/2004 1:02 Comments || Top||

#7 
God, please allow us strike these evil ones down. Amen
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/04/2004 2:24 Comments || Top||

#8  #3 Come now, this had to be a Zionist plot where Moslems were used as willing actors, for no one but Israel could be the beneficiary of such publicity.
Posted by: UFO


I am going to be as unabusive and unprofane as I can UFO. If I could lay my hands on your worthless ass I would take an electric drill and bore another hole in your head. Coat your brain with honey and splay you out next to an ant hill. FOAD you stupid asshole.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/04/2004 2:30 Comments || Top||

#9  Where is the Muylsim Outrage at this act?

Until I see local Muslims apologize and start to ACT against their violent bretheren, and cease to send them money and support (moral and vocal), I will NOT be civil to them.

I know a few, and they will all be getting hard looks from me. Evil glare- the kind I gave to recruit at boot camp. I'll be daring them to speak or fight.

This kid is the size of a little girl I see oiften, and pick her up and see her smile. And looking at this makes me furious.

As uncharictaristic and un-Christian as it is from me, at this moment, were I to have my hand on the trigger, I would happily detonate a nuclear warhead over each and every "holy" Moslem site, a conventional 2000lb bomb on each and every Mosque in the world, and eradicate that foul cancer masquerading as a religion from this planet.

The only good Mullah is one with a bullet in his skull - unless he is working actively to reform his "religion" and actively root out the evil that it contains.

And I have seen damned few of those.

Moqtada Al Sadr shoudl be shot on sight. And so should any Mullah who praises this action.
Posted by: OldSpook || 09/04/2004 2:52 Comments || Top||

#10  OldSpook--You will never see Muslims apologize or try to stop these atrocities, UNLESS they feel it is in the interest of Islam. Look how they all spoke loudly and clearly for the release of the French journalists, yet didn't have the motivation to speak out for these children who were hostage at the same time.
SO Muslims haveta think to themselves, if I condemn the killing of hundreds of babies and children in Russia, will it further Islam?
That's the criteria they go by.
Sick, aint it?
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 09/04/2004 4:31 Comments || Top||

#11  Well said OldSpook.
I will also refuse to be civil to leftist apologists for this beastial behavior. I have already heard from someone I would dearly like to punch in his fucking mouth that the Russians had this coming over Grozny.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 09/04/2004 10:10 Comments || Top||

#12  Old Spook:

I said it before and I'll say it again.

Ya'll do what you have to do. You're in the clear with me, and many, many others here in Rantburg. I will help where I can, provide support when I can and cover anyway I can.
Posted by: badanov || 09/04/2004 10:31 Comments || Top||

#13  Last night I watched ABC news and Peter Jennings all-but-stated that the deaths were a fault of the russians. That the Russians rushed the school without provication. As everyone else on Rantburg knows the muslim terrorists were trying to escape and/or blow up the school and had started executing the hostages. Yet Peter Jennings couldn't even state that they were muslims.

And dont get me that 'perhaps they didn't know the truth' bullshit. Hell I knew it 8 hours before their broadcast.

This morning I've heard that the arab league denounces the incident in principal. Now how whimpy is that?
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/04/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#14  I am sure the Gentle-men will be on soon to explain this to us infidels.
Posted by: Shipman || 09/04/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#15  From the link, I had a look at the related story: 'School siege prompts self-criticism in Arab media' and nearly fell off my chair. Could it be that Arab Muslims are actually waking up to how the world sees them?

The problem was, of course, that they could only take the self-criticism up to a point. The article stated that by terrorist actions, Muslims are doing more harm to themselves than their enemies could do to them. There's a peculiar kind of blindness here: they don't understand that they wouldn't HAVE enemies in the first place if they didn't behave like animals.

Speaking of animals, male lions are in the habit of taking over the pride of older males by defeating them in a fight and then killing the cubs of the older males so that their genes will not prevail.

This primordial urge to commit genocide, particularly of the young, so that the genes of one's own race will prevail was demonstrated by Hitler and it's now beyond doubt that Muslims have taken the baton from him.

Well, this is all doom and gloom, but there was a lighter side to the article which I encountered once I'd finished reading:

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

PRINT THIS ARTICLE EMAIL THIS ARTICLE







Posted by: Bryan || 09/04/2004 13:07 Comments || Top||

#16  Sock Puppet: at first I thought UFO was being outrageous and sarcastic. I mean who in their right mind would ever believe that Israel/Zionists/Jews would/could do such a thing. Then I looked at UFO's link. It's that sort of ignorance and blind hatred that characterizes the entire arab world and the lefties who act as their useful idiots

Vice Girl: I have believed, from 9/ll on, that the ONLY way to stop this obscene lunacy is for the muslim community to reform from the inside out. And after seeing the french muslim outrage FINALLY when they themselves were threatened with a backlash, I see that the only way to get them to do so is under threat in either their home or adopted countries.

Finally, they will NEVER be able to reform if they say attacks are evil in russia but encouraged in Israel. They're not smart enough for nuance, even if it were true (which it's not).
Posted by: PlanetDan || 09/04/2004 14:05 Comments || Top||



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Two weeks of WOT
Sat 2004-09-04
  Russia seals off North Ossetia
Fri 2004-09-03
  Hostage school stormed by Russian forces
Thu 2004-09-02
  16 dead so far in North Ossetia stand-off
Wed 2004-09-01
  200 kiddies hostage in Beslan
Tue 2004-08-31
  Booms in Moscow, Jerusalem
Mon 2004-08-30
  Chechen boom babes were roommates
Sun 2004-08-29
  Boom Kills 9 Children, 1 Adult in Afghan School
Sat 2004-08-28
  437 arrested in Islamabad crackdown
Fri 2004-08-27
  Former Yemeni interior minister helped Cole mastermind
Thu 2004-08-26
  Smell of Burned Flesh, Blood Smeared on Najaf Streets
Wed 2004-08-25
  Hamas op nabbed taping Maryland bridge
Tue 2004-08-24
  Two Russ planes boomed
Mon 2004-08-23
  Former Pak MP denies role in terrorist plot
Sun 2004-08-22
  Fatah splinter calls for bumping off Yasser
Sat 2004-08-21
  Tater wants to hand over mosque. Really.

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