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2016-03-28 -Short Attention Span Theater-
Is algebra an unnecessary stumbling block in US schools?
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Posted by Fred 2016-03-28 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11127 views ]  Top

#1 Cuts into time that could be spent on socially trendy subjects, don'cha know..."
Posted by M. Murcek 2016-03-28 00:43||   2016-03-28 00:43|| Front Page Top

#2 Generation Barbie says: "Math is hard!"
Posted by charger 2016-03-28 01:57||   2016-03-28 01:57|| Front Page Top

#3 So the natural progression is the study of algebra will be reserved for those of privilege whose parents can afford to send them to the "right" private academies.

The Chinese and the Germans are laughing their asses off at this one...and licking their chops at the decline in American competition in engineering and science.

Pretty soon we won't be able to make an omelet without a guest worker.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2016-03-28 03:31||   2016-03-28 03:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Pretty soon we won't be able to make an omelet without a guest worker.

And then guest workers will stop coming.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2016-03-28 04:04||   2016-03-28 04:04|| Front Page Top

#5 Almost everyone that I know who learnt it in school and forgotten it as they never used it after high school.



Posted by BernardZ 2016-03-28 05:52||   2016-03-28 05:52|| Front Page Top

#6 True Bernard, but I've never quit looking for square pies.
Posted by Besoeker 2016-03-28 06:02||   2016-03-28 06:02|| Front Page Top

#7 That what is known as the fallacy of the average, BernardZ.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2016-03-28 06:10||   2016-03-28 06:10|| Front Page Top

#8 Beyond the ability to count one's Manillas, what is actually needed ?

[sarc off]
Posted by Besoeker 2016-03-28 06:15||   2016-03-28 06:15|| Front Page Top

#9 If a two I-phone package is $400 for the phones and $200 per month and a single I-phone $275 for the phone and $75 a month, which is the better deal?

Does graphing the total cost over time count as algebra?

Why do you need algebra when the salesman can tell you the best deal?
Posted by Bobby 2016-03-28 07:33||   2016-03-28 07:33|| Front Page Top

#10 “When it came to x and y and graphing, that’s when I started dropping, and it made me feel low,” he said. “But we don’t need to learn what x and y is. When in life are we going to write on paper, ‘X and y needs to be this?’“

No wonder the kid failed.
Posted by Bobby 2016-03-28 07:38||   2016-03-28 07:38|| Front Page Top

#11 Meanwhile students at, I beleave Emory, are severely traumatized by 'Trump 2016' written in chalk on the sidewalk....
Posted by CrazyFool 2016-03-28 08:17||   2016-03-28 08:17|| Front Page Top

#12 Algebra and geometry are the two specific courses that I can honestly say I couldn't have prospered without.

Try being a carpenter figuring out how to frame a complex roof and you'll see what I need. After that I switched careers and became a programmer, need I explain that one?
Posted by AlanC 2016-03-28 08:18||   2016-03-28 08:18|| Front Page Top

#13 Why do you need algebra when the salesman politican can tell you the best deal?

I think we've found the problem. It isn't algebra, (tax) income vs (government) expenditure is basic math.
Posted by Procopius2k 2016-03-28 08:22||   2016-03-28 08:22|| Front Page Top

#14 Shouldn't it be a requirement to have 2 years of calculus before high school graduation and maybe a differential equations course?
Posted by 3dc 2016-03-28 08:22||   2016-03-28 08:22|| Front Page Top

#15  Meanwhile students at, I beleave Emory, are severely traumatized by 'Trump 2016' written in chalk on the sidewalk..

Aha! That explains why the little precious ones got upset over the chalk on the sidewalk, nobody told them math was involved.
Posted by AlmostAnonymous5839 2016-03-28 09:25||   2016-03-28 09:25|| Front Page Top

#16 The way algebra is taught in schools today makes it almost unlearnable.
Posted by Iblis 2016-03-28 10:00||   2016-03-28 10:00|| Front Page Top

#17  “But we don’t need to learn what x and y is. When in life are we going to write on paper, ‘X and y needs to be this?’“

I must confess that was my problem. I wanted to know why and the teachers said "Just do it." It wasn't that math was too hard, it was that pointless memorization of theorems was boring, especially to a kid in high school who had just discovered girls, cars and surfing. I got through it but my grades were, ahem, not A's or B's. How, then, did I end up as a computer programmer?

I think we need a better approach to teaching math such as first present the students with a problem they might actually encounter in real life and then show them how math can be used to solve it. Teach them a practical application for it before you bore them to death. Teach them how they can use it to get a job and then make it clear to them that the jobs acquired with math skills pay a whole heckuva lot better. I think the real problem is getting the NEA to recognize they have a problem and getting them to change.

Here's what a teacher might tell them: "Now, kids, unless you want to end up teaching school like me you really should try to learn this stuff."
Posted by Abu Uluque 2016-03-28 11:01||   2016-03-28 11:01|| Front Page Top

#18 3dc, Robert Heinlein recommended calculus as a requirement for getting a driver's license.
Posted by Rambler in Viginia 2016-03-28 11:04||   2016-03-28 11:04|| Front Page Top

#19 I'll take it a little further. My experience with high schools in California is that the emphasis is on getting kids into college. Never mind what college does to/for them. So if the college requires a year of algebra and a year or geometry those kids better damn well sit through those classes and do their homework for no other reason than they need it for four more years of sitting in boring classes?

The emphasis should be on job training for those who won't go to college. For those who will go to college, OK, make them learn math. But as I said earlier, learning math should be in the context of what can be done with math instead of math for the sake of math. Try a little elementary engineering or architecture. Teach 'em a little Javascript. Teach them something they might actually use in real life.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2016-03-28 11:13||   2016-03-28 11:13|| Front Page Top

#20 Abu: you say that as if (oh, off the top of my head) the common mechanical drafter, machinist, or welder won't need to know albebra or geometry or precalculus or calculus.
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2016-03-28 11:50||   2016-03-28 11:50|| Front Page Top

#21 Oops. Algebra.
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2016-03-28 11:51||   2016-03-28 11:51|| Front Page Top

#22 TfSM, I think that Abu was saying that as a kid he didn't get it (the need) but now he does AND to combat that problem teaching needs to change some.

He can defend himself better if necessary.

BUT, the key issue with Abu's approach is one I ran into when I became a substitute after retirement.
first present the students with a problem they might actually encounter in real life

OMG!!!! Hit them first with the dreaded word problem!!! Sure fire failure all around.

Unfortunately I agree that is the way to go. Kids need to be taught how to THINK, analyse real problems and develop the proper methodology (sic) needed to solve it.


Given the general quality and ability of the teachers I saw in an upscale public system I'm not holding out much hope.
Posted by AlanC 2016-03-28 12:26||   2016-03-28 12:26|| Front Page Top

#23 #18, If we going RAH, lets go all the way.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2016-03-28 12:34||   2016-03-28 12:34|| Front Page Top

#24 Thing, I never studied drafting or machining. Sorry. It sounds interesting but I was just never even exposed to it. But my bottom line is the emphasis in high school should be jobs and not just going on to college so the high school teachers can brag about how many of their students go on to college.

Some people might find it interesting to sit and work equations just for the sake of working the equations just like some people like to work crossword puzzles. More power to them but I think that most people don't.

If you need math to be a drafter or machinist then by all means learn it. I think it would help if the math was presented as a tool to use on the job instead of an end unto itself. But as AlanC said, the teachers in our public school systems don't offer much hope.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2016-03-28 12:57||   2016-03-28 12:57|| Front Page Top

#25 Here is the algebra logic of today. A sad commentary of today's educators and students.

Find X
Posted by Alaska Paul 2016-03-28 13:12||   2016-03-28 13:12|| Front Page Top

#26 Think of algebra as rite of passage in our culture
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2016-03-28 13:27||   2016-03-28 13:27|| Front Page Top

#27 I flunked my first year of algebra (1960) and passed on my second attempt. I worked on my first computer in 1963 and 44 years retired as a corporate engineer for DEC. During my years in high school, they also taught people to be mechanics, enginemen and machinists. Everyone is not meant for college! Our education system should be like the European one.
Posted by Omoluling Platypus4760 2016-03-28 14:37||   2016-03-28 14:37|| Front Page Top

#28 I am finding myself in serious agreement with Heinlein more and more every day.

The math problems I review on eldest's school work is not only poor in math theory, they are also poor in English composition. Some are damn near unreadable. Common Dunce is frustrating to all but the natural mathematician and reading students. So I find myself supplementing the school education.

As the CC program is, they have them learning basic algebra before having their basic +-X/ tables memorized.

It is my theory that math, especially algebra and geometry, is like riding a bike. It takes some longer than others, but once you get it, your world is suddenly much larger.

How I got Algebra:
I have $10. A candy bar and soda cost $1.25. How many candy+sodas can I buy this week?

How I got Geometry:
Hey, this can help my billiards game!

Yes, drudgery in learning proofs, but side-angle-side etc. paid off just as well as +-X/ tables.

I actually really enjoyed Calculus after I got it.

Algebra and Geometry
Posted by swksvolFF 2016-03-28 15:02||   2016-03-28 15:02|| Front Page Top

#29 I notice that some people breeze through algebra and have problems with (classical proof-based) geometry, others have it the other way round. (some of us found both subjects fun) I'm not sure why there should be a difference, but... different branches of math, different approaches.
Posted by james  2016-03-28 15:40|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com  2016-03-28 15:40|| Front Page Top

#30 Their real problem with Algebra isn't that it's hard. But that it reflects reality as opposed to the flights of fantasy reflected in most Government forecasts.

Its difficult to convince someone that

A + B > A + C

where B < C

when they have a basic understanding of Algebra.
Posted by CrazyFool 2016-03-28 15:42||   2016-03-28 15:42|| Front Page Top

#31 re #27: Omoluling Platypus4760
44 years retired as a corporate engineer for DEC.

Where and when at DEC? I spent 14 yrs mostly in Software Services, in and around Maynard. Were you at the Mill, Spitbrook, Nashua?? Those were interesting times, no?

I Took the second buyout and went to SAP.
Posted by AlanC 2016-03-28 15:55||   2016-03-28 15:55|| Front Page Top

#32  Kids need to be taught how to THINK, analyse real problems and develop the proper methodology (sic) needed to solve it.

Bingo.
Posted by Pappy 2016-03-28 16:02||   2016-03-28 16:02|| Front Page Top

#33 The only thing I learned in high school that proved useful in the real world was basic statistics and probability. I was in a program that omitted trigonometry to teach it. Trig to this day baffles me.
Posted by phil_b 2016-03-28 16:56||   2016-03-28 16:56|| Front Page Top

#34 Yes, drudgery in learning proofs, but side-angle-side etc. paid off just as well as +-X/ tables.

That's what I call a practical application. If only I'd had a pool table.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2016-03-28 17:17||   2016-03-28 17:17|| Front Page Top

#35 Sometimes my walk home from school would be past a bowling alley with a game room. Planted get a job seeds as well, because losing was expensive.

Suddenly bowling pens were not a random flurry, carom shots in mini golf made sense. I didn't get it easily, had to work at it, but see the classic 3-4-5 triangle and know 30/60/90 - which years later fortuitously helped me learn drafting which landed me my first real job in high school and afford to take dates to the bowling alley and really lose some money.
Posted by swksvolFF 2016-03-28 18:30||   2016-03-28 18:30|| Front Page Top

#36 Just say it's an arab origin word and they're islamophobic for not teaching it.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2016-03-28 19:09||   2016-03-28 19:09|| Front Page Top

#37 Now I understand why Bernie Sanders was a crappy carpenter.
Posted by Deacon Blues 2016-03-28 20:00||   2016-03-28 20:00|| Front Page Top

#38 Bernie is a Fraggle.
Posted by swksvolFF 2016-03-28 20:23||   2016-03-28 20:23|| Front Page Top

#39 #38 Bernie is a Fraggle.

Dat's rayciss
Posted by charger 2016-03-28 20:38||   2016-03-28 20:38|| Front Page Top

#40 If they are factoring higher order polynomials, the courses may be too advanced for high school. Better to hammer home the basics and save something for the advanced placement courses.
Posted by KBK 2016-03-28 22:55||   2016-03-28 22:55|| Front Page Top

23:59 gorb
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