Article

2010-09-08 Fifth Column

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Anon1 2010-09-08 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views ] Top

#1 Yeah, there were a bunch of religious leaders meeting in D.C. today, headed up by one Ingrid Mattson, a Canadian Muslim convert professor and activist and the current president of the Islamic Society of North America. You should look her up; she has quite the background on JihadWatch. It was all on CSpan...they said they didn't discuss the GZ mosque...only the Koran burning issue. All, of course, were simply outraged. It was quite the production, considering all of this was started by just a few dozen wackos in Florida.

They should save their matches, though. I vote to line up a bunch of jars, place a Koran in each one and then piss in them.

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 00:27|| 2010-09-08 00:27|| Front Page Top

#2 This Crayon burning exercise IS idiotic and dangerous. It serves no beneficial purpose. It very well could swing some marginally wacko Muslims all the way to the dark side (yes, there are Muslims who are rational, so far) and lead to the death of innocent people. Furthermore, it is a very un-Christian thing to do - the whole 'Do unto others' idea... Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

Posted by Glenmore 2010-09-08 00:28|| 2010-09-08 00:28|| Front Page Top

#3 Yeah. Musn't provoke them. Lest they turn the tables and do something equally provocative. Like putting up a 15 story monument to their victory of murdering nearly 3000 innocents.

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 00:36|| 2010-09-08 00:36|| Front Page Top

#4 To quote a book:

"It is light that defeats the darkness - light!"

If you want to defeat the ideas of the Koran do what Jihad Watch does - shine a bright shiny light on it. Expose it for what it is. Debate it. Point out that everything the 'extremist Islamist' does is right out of the Koran and that the Koran commands Muslims to do just that.

Burning a book is stupid and only shows that paper burns.

Having said that - I'm sure Holder and his boss would be just as concerned about burning a bible or Torah.

(yeah right...)

BTW: Doesn't Saudi Arabia burn bibles as a matter of course?

Posted by CrazyFool 2010-09-08 01:01|| 2010-09-08 01:01|| Front Page Top

#5 thanks AoS :)

I like Freedom of Speech a lot. SO much so that I like Wikileaks.

I agree the Pastor has the right to burn the Koran if he so wants to.

But even General Petraeus is asking them not to do it. The average muslim just sees the news from the US on al Jazeera and thinks all Americans are burning Korans. They then get told that's what freedom brings.

So then they hate freedom, and they hate us even more and that undoes all the work the troops are trying to do. And alienates the good moderate muslims.

But i don't know how i feel about that really - on the one hand, you cannot have "conditional" freedom. You are either free or you're not.

You can't have people pressured and forced into submitting because of fear of the consequences so maybe this would provoke the conflict we have to have.. after all this 'winning hearts and minds' is a failed strategy. Maybe this would help us all admit it. The cultural gulf is too wide.

or it could just be needlessly provoking bloodshed and mayhem.

I agree with that good poster: light is the cure for darkness. Not more darkness. Shine the light don't give them more excuses to behave like barbarians.

Posted by anon1 2010-09-08 01:38|| 2010-09-08 01:38|| Front Page Top

#6 Or the alternative is to flush them out now. I don't want to live my life worried that some day, some one is going to provoke their sorry asses and they'll go off on one of their enraged killing sprees.

Are there really people out there that think this cult needs an excuse to commit atrocities? Seriously?

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 01:59|| 2010-09-08 01:59|| Front Page Top

#7 yes, some do. Dunno why cause Islam has perma PMS. Damned if ya do damned if ya don't. Although burning books does seem silly.

Posted by Entertaining Prose 2010-09-08 02:23|| 2010-09-08 02:23|| Front Page Top

#8 To put things in perspective:

The South Park Episode "Cartoon Wars Part II" featured a scene showing Mohammed "just standing there doing nothing offensive." That scene was censored by Comedy Central.

Another scene showed President Bush, some American celebrities and Jesus Christ defecating on each other and the American flag. This scene was aired, there were no riots by either outraged Christians or outraged American patriots.

Posted by Omaing White7048 2010-09-08 03:08|| 2010-09-08 03:08|| Front Page Top

#9 The only thing I don't like about the book burning is it is book burning. It sets a bad precedent and brings back feelings of Nazi Germany. As for angering Islam, tough. How long are we going to sit in hostage to these people and put up with the killing sprees? We've had to put up with Bible burning and flag burning, people doing all sorts of distasteful things to other religious symbols, and people are again afraid to act because they might piss off Muslims and watch them going on a killing spree? They'll do that any way. It's what they want. Being afraid of them and letting that fear intimidate people is part of the plan why they are so successful. It's terrorism without a bomb. I mean really, how long are we going to be hostages to them? Half the world already suffers from Stockholm Syndrome from them.

Posted by miscellaneous 2010-09-08 05:52|| 2010-09-08 05:52|| Front Page Top

#10 I'll ask one question before this gets, hot. How many of you have read the quran and hadiths? The only time Muhammad taught peace was when he was outnumbered.

Book burning is never a good thing but in this case they are burning a terrorist manual.

Posted by Icerigger 2010-09-08 06:34|| 2010-09-08 06:34|| Front Page Top

#11 Even if I knew nothing about Islam, anything Eric (away with eurocentrist notions of Law & Justice) Holder considers "idiotic and dangerous" has my wholehearted approval.

Since I do know something about Islam, I have to say "Consider this a first instalment in repaying your burning of Library of Alexandria and the rest, beasts of Abaddon."

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2010-09-08 06:56|| 2010-09-08 06:56|| Front Page Top

#12 It wasn't too long ago that many Muslims were reveling in Nazism, and turning the Arabic version of Mein Kampf into a bestseller.

And if all it takes to turn a Muslim into a murderous maniac is to burn a book, or to publish a book, for that matter, they are borderline murderous maniacs already, so should be treated as such, instead of letting them hide behind a veneer of civility and humanity.

Appeasement has never worked. It never will work. So it's best to see their true colors before they metastasize too deeply into our society.

If it takes burning a bunch of cheap copies of their religious text to do this, it is worth it. And if this brave preacher gets viciously murdered for it, it is not his fault, but that of his murderer.

If your family is physically threatened, it may be justifiable to kill who is threatening them. But if you're dealing in fantasy, and somebody says Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't a real Jedi, or Mohammed was a child molester, that is not a legitimate reason to murder someone, no matter how offended you are.

Posted by Anonymoose 2010-09-08 07:30|| 2010-09-08 07:30|| Front Page Top

#13 Moose, no one here is talking appeasement.

Book burning is stupid. It lowers us. Better for us to focus on the threat and respond accordingly.

If the Koran is a 'terrorist manual' as noted by some, all the better to read and understand it (as a non-Muslim) so as to know how to defeat terrorists.

Posted by Steve White 2010-09-08 07:59|| 2010-09-08 07:59|| Front Page Top

#14 Burn the books. We should provoke and outrage them at every turn.

Posted by Secret Asian Man 2010-09-08 08:31|| 2010-09-08 08:31|| Front Page Top

#15 Meh. There's a reason there's no Catholic Rage Boy or Presbyterian Rage Boy. These tools would be outraged whether the books are burned or not, or even if they were Reader's Digests and simply represented Korans. Skinless people in a sandpaper world

Posted by Frank G 2010-09-08 08:48|| 2010-09-08 08:48|| Front Page Top

#16 More damaging to the jihadi cause would be to read the Koran aloud. Let people hear what these people believe. A nice touch would be a side by side comparison with those bits that contain the stories of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. Let the distortions be outlined in neon -- we had a Muslim speaker at the trailing daughters' elementary school some months after 9/11, and she actually told the group that they believe in the same prophets the Jews and Christians do, completely skimming over the differences,

Posted by trailing wife 2010-09-08 08:53|| 2010-09-08 08:53|| Front Page Top

#17 Ingrid Mattson, a Canadian Muslim convert professor and activist and the current president of the Islamic Society of North America.

#1 Infidel. Thanks for the reference. Mattson does not sound much like a "moderate" muslim. She converted from Catholicism to islam. Not for free speech. For sharia law in America. Sounds much like the Feisal Abdul Rauf in held beliefs maybe more extreme. Perhaps Andrew Breitbart will offer $100,000 if anyone can find a "moderate" muslim.

Posted by JohnQC 2010-09-08 09:10|| 2010-09-08 09:10|| Front Page Top

#18 ...But then how would you know they were moderate. Because they said so? Thanks to taqiyya and kitman we would never really know. She embraces Wahhabism also

Posted by JohnQC 2010-09-08 09:12|| 2010-09-08 09:12|| Front Page Top

#19 Anyone see Rauf's editorial in the NYSlimes yet? Let me give you the cliff notes version:

"Screw you, America. We're building the goddam mosque. And when I got back to town I couldn't believe how miserably mean y'all have been to my 'peoples', so we're back to calling it Cordoba House. And no, hell to the no, I will not be denouncing my Hamas brethren. Go fuck yourselves."

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 10:23|| 2010-09-08 10:23|| Front Page Top

#20 #16 More damaging to the jihadi cause would be to read the Koran aloud. Let people hear what these people believe. A nice touch would be a side by side comparison with those bits that contain the stories of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. Let the distortions be outlined in neon -- we had a Muslim speaker at the trailing daughters' elementary school some months after 9/11, and she actually told the group that they believe in the same prophets the Jews and Christians do, completely skimming over the differences,
Posted by: trailing wife 2010-09-08 08:53

I always find that funny about them. More misleading rhetoric. What people don't understand is that what they do say is considered Heresy by the Catholic church and is still combated and treated as such today.

They should save their matches, though. I vote to line up a bunch of jars, place a Koran in each one and then piss in them.
Posted by: Infidel 2010-09-08 00:27

That's an idea. We already know how they treat other religions and their institutions and symbols. Just look at what they did do to Cordoba after the invasion.

Posted by miscellaneous 2010-09-08 10:36|| 2010-09-08 10:36|| Front Page Top

#21 I'd rather recommend what Chancellor Merkel will do tonight.

She'll hand over a German media prize IN PERSON to the Danish Mohammed cartoonist.

The Lady has what you call you know what

Posted by European Conservative 2010-09-08 10:45|| 2010-09-08 10:45|| Front Page Top

#22 #21 I'd rather recommend what Chancellor Merkel will do tonight.

She'll hand over a German media prize IN PERSON to the Danish Mohammed cartoonist.
The Lady has what you call you know what
Posted by: European Conservative 2010-09-08 10:45

This actually surprises me alot considering how liberal Merkel is and how liberal, can't we all get along and every thing is okay," Germany is. You don't suppose they are seeing the tyranny that rose for them coming again do you?

Posted by miscellaneous 2010-09-08 10:57|| 2010-09-08 10:57|| Front Page Top

#23 Like smashing Piggy's glasses, book burning is anti-civilization.

I have gone my whole life watching people burn, piss, shit on, so forth symbols I hold dear. If those offended consider themselves ye olde people of the book, they would know that burning a book does not destroy their god.

So grow up already. People swayed by this one way or another are just looking for an excuse.

Posted by swksvolFF 2010-09-08 11:38|| 2010-09-08 11:38|| Front Page Top

#24 Holder held the talks with religious leaders to discuss ways of confronting an anti-Islamic wave in the United States

A wavereally? Seems like its a few isolated incidents that have gotten an over abundance of airplay from the leftist media. But then again, what do I know Im just another one those right wing phobes

Posted by DepotGuy 2010-09-08 12:01|| 2010-09-08 12:01|| Front Page Top

#25 This is what bothers me: Throughout the whole debate about the Ground Zero mosque our betters have been telling us about how this is the right of the Muslims, and how honouring such rights is what make America and the West so strong. Yes, I agree, but it also shows very poor judgement on behalf of the mosque-builders. Very little comments about that part. Now to the book burning, we are told all about it showing poor judgement but nothing about how it is within the peoples' rights to do so if they choose. Why no comment about how it is these very same rights that also make America and the West great.

Posted by Chemist 2010-09-08 12:08|| 2010-09-08 12:08|| Front Page Top

#26 It might make sense to use the book burning as a publicity device and then to highlight the 100 to 170 Jihad verses in the Koran and compile them all and read them outloud to the various media people attending the event.

Posted by lord garth 2010-09-08 12:40|| 2010-09-08 12:40|| Front Page Top

#27 Merkel - ballsiest move of the year. Would sasha baron Cohen as Brino even be this bold?Merkel has no peer at this moment fir sending a clear F.U.

Posted by Highefficiency 2010-09-08 12:43|| 2010-09-08 12:43|| Front Page Top

#28 you cannot have "conditional" freedom. You are either free or you're not.

The "conditional" freedoms concern me. The deadly "however". One may say anything one wants about anything - except islam. The media may publish any article - as long as the contents do not upset muslims. Humour and cartoons may poke fun at anyone or anything - except muslims and islam. Freedom of religion exists only where muslims permit it - this freedom applies only to muslims.

Freedom of the press. Freedom of speech and expression. Freedom of religion. All now conditional to the permissions and sensibilities of muslims. all supported, if not initiated, by "moderate muslims" (an oxymoron at best).

Why the legal burning of a Koran is any more "provacative" than the building of a victory mosque at GZ lies in the insanity of the players. The "danger" of islamic anger lies everywhere: in what infidels say, in countless superstitions and ridiculous conspiricy theories, in the very idea that infidels live.

Why continue to try and educate infidels on the dangers of islam by simply reading them the koran when burning one will illustrate this far more quickly and sincerely? Shake the tree and lets see who falls out.

I'm fed up being told I have to pussyfoot around the sensitivities of muslims for any reason. Doubley so when my rights are involved. The flashpoint of muslims is far lower than 451F.

As an aside... i'm wondering if Jeff Dunham (ventriloquist) has received any death threats over the use of his Achmed, the dead terrorist, puppet?

Silence! I kill you!

Posted by Swanimote 2010-09-08 12:50|| 2010-09-08 12:50|| Front Page Top

#29 What was the last thing that went through your mind? My butt. Silence I kill you!!!

Posted by Highefficiency 2010-09-08 13:17|| 2010-09-08 13:17|| Front Page Top

#30 If Obama had played this correctly he could have made a big positive impact, as this is truly a teachable moment.

In a free society people will tolerate free expression they despise, be it the legal construction of a Ground Zero Mosque, be it a Koran burning event, he could have said.

Such a statement would have shown true commitment to a free and open society and it would have defused rumors about him being a Muslim.

That he has not used this opportunity so far is telling.

Posted by Omaing White7048 2010-09-08 13:49|| 2010-09-08 13:49|| Front Page Top

#31 Can we compare the number of American leaders (political and religious) who have wholeheartedly condemned the Koran-burning to the number of Muslim political & religious leaders who wholeheartedly condemned 9/11?

(Wholeheartedly being without any magic "But..." or "However...")

Posted by Free Radical 2010-09-08 14:32|| 2010-09-08 14:32|| Front Page Top

#32 I believe the koran burning will result in a temporary increase in the numbers of attacks, but isn't that one reason why Marines are over there? To kill radical Muslims? Let them attack I say.

I think the US media has made this "crisis".

People keep citing Gen Petraeus...ask his boss, General Mattis, what he thinks about this issue and I believe you will get a very different response.

Ignorant people are always excitable. I think about the Indian Mutiny of 1857 with the native sepoys revolted against the East India Company army. A lot of blood shed over a rumor of British cartridges being greased with bovine fat. But, it did give the British government a reality check about the folks they were dealing with in India and the prospects for long-term stability.

As Moose said:

And if all it takes to turn a Muslim into a murderous maniac is to burn a book...they are borderline murderous maniacs already, so should be treated as such, instead of letting them hide behind a veneer of civility and humanity.

Posted by A Grunt in Pogue Clothing 2010-09-08 14:34|| 2010-09-08 14:34|| Front Page Top

#33 Read via an Instapundit link today that the book-burner has links to F-U'd Freddy Phelps' Westboro church. I'll admit the association puts it a different light for me.

Posted by Grinelet Sproing6478 2010-09-08 15:29|| 2010-09-08 15:29|| Front Page Top

#34 More damaging to the jihadi cause would be to read the Koran aloud. Let people hear what these people believe.

Isn't that what Geert Wilders did? Remember the response to his movie?

Muslims need to understand that we have a problem with the way they behave. The problem is they react with violence if we express an idea they don't like. If it takes cartoons, Geert Wilders movies, or Koran burnings to get their attention then so be it. If they react with violence it only proves our point. If they want to protest peacefully then maybe we've made some progress. If we are going to engage with these people, interact with them, they need to understand that we take our rights seriously. If they can't understand that, how can we ever have a free and fair exchange of ideas with them?

And if they won't respect our culture and our rights then we have decisions to make. We can let them intimidate us and thereby lose our freedom. We can try to disengage with them (can you hear the oil companies howling over that? can you imagine the PC moonbats if we tried to expel them from our countries?), or we can keep on fighting these stupid little wars for the next thousand years.

I'm in favor of disengagement myself. I'd like to let them stew in their own juices for another thousand years. Let them turn their countries into deserts and keep them out of ours. I don't want war and I don't plan on burning any Qurans myself. But if the members of a church in Florida want to do that, it is their right. Eric Holder be damned. Petraeus too. Clinton and even the Pope too. Do you really want these people to surrender their rights? I don't.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2010-09-08 15:40|| 2010-09-08 15:40|| Front Page Top

#35 Anybody notice that the MSM really didn't give a crap about this tiny congregation and their silly book burning UNTIL the GZ mosque ran into stiff headwinds, and then this become a huge moral issue? Setting this up as moral equivalency to mute the GZ opponents as the MSM builds a story of Islamophobia here.

Gee, it would be fun to follow the editorial guidance and MSM/reporter funding here. Somewhere you find petrodollars and George Soros I'll bet.

Posted by NoMoreBS 2010-09-08 15:49|| 2010-09-08 15:49|| Front Page Top

#36 The political class of western countries could have avoided this ugly development by drawing a line earlier.

In recent years there were many opportunities where the Arab-Islamic world could have been warned to respect western freedom and sovereignty.

Muslim ambassadors in Denmark wanted to complain to PM Rasmussen about the cartoons. He refused to receive them. Other western governments criticized this move and admonished him to seek "dialogue."

Imagine if instead Denmark, the US, France and Germany, and others had simultaneously PNGd the ambassadors of the offending Muslim nations.
No bloodshed, but a clear warning.

Instead the west has become finlandized, we have meekly accepted an Islamic Brezhnev doctrine.

Nuts!

Posted by Omaing White7048 2010-09-08 16:19|| 2010-09-08 16:19|| Front Page Top

#37 Saw a muslim being interviewed by Hannity, I think. This muslim was opposed to building the mosque. However, the interesting part about what he said was that imam Feisal Abdul Rauf would be viewed as a powerful man in the muslim world if he gets this mosque built. (Yeah and that would most likely mean we would come across looking like dumb $hits for allowing it to be built.)

Posted by JohnQC 2010-09-08 16:33|| 2010-09-08 16:33|| Front Page Top

#38 Interesting theory, NoMoreBS.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2010-09-08 16:36|| 2010-09-08 16:36|| Front Page Top

#39 There's also a Muzzie who's come out today to say that there are actually pages in the Koran that should be burned. Link's at HotAir. Just hope she has her bodyguards lined up.

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 16:55|| 2010-09-08 16:55|| Front Page Top

#40 what he said was that imam Feisal Abdul Rauf would be viewed as a powerful man in the muslim world if he gets this mosque built.

It's good to get that info out there, but I doubt there are many who actually thought Rauf really gives a shit about the muzzie community. He's all about power.

Posted by Infidel 2010-09-08 16:58|| 2010-09-08 16:58|| Front Page Top

#41 don't burn them. any idiot can come up with burning a book, and as mentioned many times above, it is reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

instead, have a corral with live hogs in it and run the korans through a wood chipper and use it as litter for the hogs to root around in. save the first and last page before shredding, use the first as a napkin for the free roast pig BBQ and the last one as TP.

Posted by Abu do you love on vacation and a borrowed laptop 2010-09-08 18:08|| 2010-09-08 18:08|| Front Page Top

#42 I'll repeat what I said yesterday:

Don't burn the koran - it's too easy a death.

1. Put it in a jar of urine and call it art.

2. Cover another copy with manure and do the same.

3. Put a picture of Mo-ham-head on the ground and invite people to walk on it to write their thoughts in a book.

What? It was art when done to Christian symbols and the American flag. Don't you support art?

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2010-09-08 18:32|| 2010-09-08 18:32|| Front Page Top

#43 Burning the Koran or Bible or American flag is protected under our constitution and reaffermed by the SC. However stupid any of those burnings are, bottom line, its legal. Any effort buy the government to stop it or to ask for a media blackout, like Hillary did, goes against what America stands for. I suspect it will all turn to spin as they burn the Koran, and the news agancies that carry it will be blamed for the next 50 deaths in Afghanistan.

Posted by 49 pan 2010-09-08 20:10|| 2010-09-08 20:10|| Front Page Top

#44 49 Pan,

That is where multi-culturalism fails. Islam and the US Constitution do not co-exist. Hafiz, which literally means "Guardian" of the Koran, which for the most part is a title given to those who have memorized the entire book, could also mean protectors of the book against those who would do harm to the book. This will be a flash point where many Christians who would never do such a thing will be punished severely for what this Preacher intends to do. Barbarian response is expected indeed.

Posted by Cleans Panda4264 2010-09-08 21:07|| 2010-09-08 21:07|| Front Page Top

#45 49 Pan is right. All this crazy sh*t is protected "speech." I think that it is a stupid idea to burn the Koran, but it is legal in this country. The liberals think that it is ok to desecrate Christian or Jewish religious symbolism, but they have a double standard when it comes to Islam.

The bottom line with me is that if it is done and some Muslims go apesh*t, that is their problem and not ours. They get in our face about it, they have a problem. I am sick of these psychopaths and their liberal apologists.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2010-09-08 22:11|| 2010-09-08 22:11|| Front Page Top

#46 The liberals think that it is ok to desecrate Christian or Jewish religious symbolism, but they have a double standard when it comes to Islam.

They also have fear.

Posted by Pappy 2010-09-08 22:26|| 2010-09-08 22:26|| Front Page Top

#47 All I know is, if there's to be a campfire then I'm bringing some hotdogs, smores and pabsts...the rest of you can BYOB...

seriously though, 500 afghanis protesting in Kabul? Last I heard you could get 500 afghanis to pretty much protest anything western or borderline offensive to islam (but what isn't borderline offensive to islam these days?).

If this kook in Fla wants to burn korans so be it. I'm actually kind of interested to see how this plays out. Might be the necessary bring to a head we need to call this war as it really is. The forces of liberty (with all its associated messiness) versus the orcs.

Posted by Broadhead6 2010-09-08 22:28|| 2010-09-08 22:28|| Front Page Top

23:50 Redneck Jim
23:42 JosephMendiola
23:39 JosephMendiola
23:37 Mike Hunt
23:36 JosephMendiola
23:32 Mike Hunt
23:31 Bulldog Carney
23:28 JosephMendiola
23:07 Barbara Skolaut
22:59 JosephMendiola
22:51 Water Modem
22:44 JosephMendiola
22:41 Water Modem
22:37 Broadhead6
22:37 Procopius2k
22:35 Broadhead6
22:31 Pappy
22:30 miscellaneous
22:29 Pappy
22:29 Procopius2k
22:28 Broadhead6
22:27 OldSpook
22:26 Pappy
22:11 Alaska Paul