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2008-10-22 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Russia to fire a high percentage of it's officer cadre.
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Posted by 3dc 2008-10-22 03:33|| || Front Page|| [11139 views ]  Top

#1 Implementing the Obama cost saving model.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-10-22 09:09||   2008-10-22 09:09|| Front Page Top

#2 Better to be fired under Putin than fired under Stalin.
Posted by SteveS 2008-10-22 09:18||   2008-10-22 09:18|| Front Page Top

#3 I'm no Russia expert, could someone illuminate me? Would this be one way for a strongly KGB influenced government to weaken their longstanding rival, the Russian military? What are the implications?
Posted by Heriberto Whusogum3364 2008-10-22 10:30||   2008-10-22 10:30|| Front Page Top

#4 It worked so well for Stalin.

There's deadwood at the top of the food chain in any military. In Russia, lots of the top guys are also "businessmen". Putin is cleaning out his competition, I suspect.
Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins  2008-10-22 10:30|| http://northshorejournal.org]">[http://northshorejournal.org]  2008-10-22 10:30|| Front Page Top

#5 Any older military organization suffers from "too many chiefs" syndrome, but this seems excessive for that. More likely to be a purge of "unreliables"...
Posted by mojo">mojo  2008-10-22 10:33||   2008-10-22 10:33|| Front Page Top

#6 'Implications'....they are broke and the military is in dire need of modernization or reivention. Money spent on the WWII defense models can be better spent on special operations forces, strategic response systems and weaponry.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-10-22 10:34||   2008-10-22 10:34|| Front Page Top

#7 Is this what happens when Georgia is not conquered in a walk?
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 12:11||   2008-10-22 12:11|| Front Page Top

#8 Re Georgia. Instead of 5 days should have spent one. Reorganization is long overdue. Finally.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 16:09||   2008-10-22 16:09|| Front Page Top

#9 Longing for the good old days, Comrade?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 17:52||   2008-10-22 17:52|| Front Page Top

#10 Well, the result has been a success, so that's a token of consolation!
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:05||   2008-10-22 18:05|| Front Page Top

#11 success, huh? Ever look at the life expectancy or average income or general availability of consumer goods of your beloved country's citizens? Oh, but that's never been a concern in the good old Soviet, was it?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 18:23||   2008-10-22 18:23|| Front Page Top

#12 The female life span is about the same as here.
The male life span drastically dipped coinciding with dissolution of the USSR. It is recovering slowly now.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:27||   2008-10-22 18:27|| Front Page Top

#13 general availability of consumer goods

You totally have no clue what you are talking about. Have you been to Russia in the last 15 years. Moscow, right now boasts the largest number of billioners on the planet, and the cost (and variety) of luxury goods basket exceeds that of New York (and I work on Manhatten just so that you know). As for the other goods, from Europe and all over, you cannot even imagine how poor the variety here even in specialized food stores like Whole Foods and Trader Joe. I am not even talking about run of the mill supermarkets!
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:32||   2008-10-22 18:32|| Front Page Top

#14 keep right on pretending.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 18:41||   2008-10-22 18:41|| Front Page Top

#15 It is simple, Frank, you have never been to Russia.
And you don't even read the news, really!
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:43||   2008-10-22 18:43|| Front Page Top

#16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow-City
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:47||   2008-10-22 18:47|| Front Page Top

#17 Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/30/billionaires-london-moscow-biz-billies-cz_cv_0430billiecities.html
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:54||   2008-10-22 18:54|| Front Page Top

#18 The female life span is about the same as here.
The male life span drastically dipped coinciding with dissolution of the USSR. It is recovering slowly now.

Or the dip could have been because the old numbers weren't accurate.

Methinks someone bought the propaganda and is still a useful idiot.
Posted by Mike N. 2008-10-22 18:54||   2008-10-22 18:54|| Front Page Top

#19 "Methinks someone bought the propaganda and is still a useful idiot."

I dunno about the useful part, Mike - but you're much more generous than I am. ;-p
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2008-10-22 18:57|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]  2008-10-22 18:57|| Front Page Top

#20 Or the dip could have been because the old numbers weren't accurate.

It's not like that: there ways to test it: WHO also studied it.

Also, look at Cuba: back then and now - same system as USSR: look at their male/female life expectancies - they are the same as in the U.S. Let me find you a link.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:58||   2008-10-22 18:58|| Front Page Top

#21 U.S still has a horrible infant mortality rate: 28th place in the world.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 18:59||   2008-10-22 18:59|| Front Page Top

#22 Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 19:00||   2008-10-22 19:00|| Front Page Top

#23 The simple fact is that a lot of Dr. Zhivago-type simps here have no clue about, is that there was a reason why USSR did survive for 80 years: some of the things were actually good. I don't dispute that the centrally planned economy played itself out and finally did USSR in, on the other hand I had a very happy childhood.

And with a market based economy in Russia now things are fine: materialistically speaking.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 19:05||   2008-10-22 19:05|| Front Page Top

#24 Of course in Cuba they aren't counted as 'dead'... just 'resting'....

(isn't there an old joke about someone selling a dead parrot who's just 'resting'?)
Posted by CrazyFool 2008-10-22 19:06||   2008-10-22 19:06|| Front Page Top

#25 Jokes are easy: seeing the reality or accepting a somewhat different perspective is hard. I know first-hand how the news brainwash people here.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 19:07||   2008-10-22 19:07|| Front Page Top

#26 squeeeeeal boy!
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 19:09||   2008-10-22 19:09|| Front Page Top

#27 "And with a market based economy in Russia now things are fine: materialistically speaking."
BS. For the minority with disposable income, perhaps. I know some recent immigrants and I know you're full of crap.
Posted by Darrell 2008-10-22 19:10||   2008-10-22 19:10|| Front Page Top

#28 hmmm GC do you get paid per comment? Or is it a per diem?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 19:10||   2008-10-22 19:10|| Front Page Top

#29 KGB speak: Criminal Billionaires = Our Avg Income has raised! Don't agree? Try the sushi.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 19:14||   2008-10-22 19:14|| Front Page Top

#30 I know some recent immigrants and I know you're full of crap.

Those who come are always the most disadvantaged. Others do not come. Also, just I wild guess, but I bet you have spoken with russian jewish immigrants - just a guess.
Posted by General_Comments 2008-10-22 19:16||   2008-10-22 19:16|| Front Page Top

#31 Avg Income has raised

yes, it has, and substantially in the past 8 years.
Posted by General_Comments 2008-10-22 19:17||   2008-10-22 19:17|| Front Page Top

#32 Check it out...
Gross national income per capita 2007:
USA - $45,850
Russian Federation - $14,400 (right below Libya)
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf
Posted by Darrell 2008-10-22 19:18||   2008-10-22 19:18|| Front Page Top

#33 Frank, I don't mean to offend you, but you will likely die ignorant- it is just the thing with some Zhivago people.
Posted by General_Comments 2008-10-22 19:19||   2008-10-22 19:19|| Front Page Top

#34 USA - $45,850
Russian Federation - $14,400

My friend, it was mush worse before.
You just don't get it, do you?
Posted by General_Comments 2008-10-22 19:20||   2008-10-22 19:20|| Front Page Top

#35 Do you know what the 90's were like in Russia???
50% decline in GDP. Do you know where your Great Depression is compared to this. The only reason people were not dying on the streets is because they were helping each other and were not summarily laid off (the residual vestiges of socialism helped there) Just shut up. Throwing me those per/capita numbers . . .
Posted by General_Comments 2008-10-22 19:23||   2008-10-22 19:23|| Front Page Top

#36 you know, GC? I've never seen Dr. Zhivago. Nice try. Defender of killer commies doesn't bear much love around here. Manhattan, huh? I think we nailed your IP yesterday? Still using the legal beagle company access to defend commie criminals?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 20:03||   2008-10-22 20:03|| Front Page Top

#37 #35 Do you know what the 90's were like in Russia???

it's always that way when your grip on slave states is wrenched free. They start to realize their own improvement, you lose forced labor, enslaved imports at sub-market prices, and your own impoverished populace get's sunk even worse. Meanwhile the elite KGB- crime aristocracy gets rich. Great empire you love, loser. I see..what's that? Your enslaved slave states are realizing even higher gains than Mother Russia! Go figure?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 20:09||   2008-10-22 20:09|| Front Page Top

#38 "And with a market based economy in Russia now things are fine: materialistically speaking."
Fine, huh? Your word, not mine. Fine at #73 in the line-up of nations, right below Libya. Mighty fine, comrade, mighty fine.

You've got no business lecturing us, Comrade. Our system works better that yours even when our worst day and your best day coincide.
Posted by Darrell 2008-10-22 20:15||   2008-10-22 20:15|| Front Page Top

#39 They have best days, Darrell?

Who knew?
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2008-10-22 20:37|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]  2008-10-22 20:37|| Front Page Top

#40 As near as I can follow it, General_Comrade sits at home in New Jersey, ports comments through his law office in NYC, and tells us everything is just fine back in the Federation. The way I see it, he's a troll. If we could look in his eyes, maybe we'd see KGB.
Posted by Darrell 2008-10-22 20:43||   2008-10-22 20:43|| Front Page Top

#41 Moscow, right now boasts the largest number of billioners on the planet, and the cost (and variety) of luxury goods basket exceeds that of New York

I'm quite sure that is true. Like the moneyed class in China, the religion of the moneyed class in Russia, ie Moscow, is acquisition of the most expensive. New York City has a small group like that -- hedge fund traders and Donald Trump, when times are good ;-) -- but the moneyed are more into experiences than than acquisitions there, I think. Probably because for the most part it's the Old Money families that set the tone.

USA - $45,850
Russian Federation - $14,400

My friend, it was mush worse before.

That, actually, is likely true as well, and one needn't be a Commie lover to say so. Between the reduction of population and some rationalization of business -- and profits from oil and natural gas sales -- per capita income must have gone up. Some of it even trickled down below the millionaires. Quality of life has gone up as well, I know. Mr. Wife was involved in opening the Russian market to his company's goods back in the mid-1990s. As sales expanded, they bought into partnerships in several factories, hired locals, and proceeded to teach them the Western way of doing things. The last I heard, considerably more of their products were being sold than the company actual was capable of producing, a problem they also have in China. And I am quite, quite certain that some of those Mr. Wife's company hired and trained have taken their skills and knowledge elsewhere.

Finally, I've heard several other Russian emigrants speak longingly of the happy days and simple joys of their youth under the Soviets. Do not most of us think that life was simpler and brighter when we were young, because generally for children that is so, and anyway distance smooths over the memory of even the difficulties we were aware of. Remember that many were not persecuted because they did not stick out in any way, and where there are no great expectations there are no great disappointments either. Let us be happy for General_Comment that he was loved and cosseted in his youth, and hope that he will allow his increased knowledge of the brutalities of the world he left to broaden his understanding beyond that which he had as a child.

General_Comment, Frank is correct in his comment number 37. Giving up or losing an empire costs the common folk of the home country dearly until a new balance is found. Was it fair to those who suffered therefrom? Of course not, but it had not been fair to the non-Russian members of the Soviet Union or to the conquered nations of the Warsaw Pact for at least two generations previous.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 21:18||   2008-10-22 21:18|| Front Page Top

#42 You've got no business lecturing us, Comrade. Our system works better that yours even when our worst day and your best day coincide.

A: Nowhere in my posts are:
(i) how to run this country;
(ii) that Russian economy is somehow superior to the U.S. economy;
(iii)lectures on the comparative economy of the U.S. or Russia.

Either read the posts or keep quiet, my fellow American.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:11||   2008-10-22 22:11|| Front Page Top

#43 but the moneyed are more into experiences than than acquisitions there, I think.

You have not spent much time on Manhattan, I suppose. Let me educate you: it is called "competitive spending."
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:19||   2008-10-22 22:19|| Front Page Top

#44 fellow American? Bwahahaha . At least support your convictions with your feet and move there. Otherwise, you're a weakass propangandist for a lying, stinking, criminal regime, who (if you're not getting paid, which we don't know..) is a fool and moral midget
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 22:20||   2008-10-22 22:20|| Front Page Top

#45 nite GC - you've spent a lot of time without convincing anyone, and furthering your own loss of credibility. Dasvidanya Comrade!
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-10-22 22:23||   2008-10-22 22:23|| Front Page Top

#46 Frank, you truly are an idiot. I am sorry.
And you are also a moralist, but that is because you have not seen much in life.

I am more American than you asshole, because I chose to be an American. I am more American because of my drive, ambition and success. And you, you may have been born here, but you are a loser!
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:36||   2008-10-22 22:36|| Front Page Top

#47 Manhattan? No, after all the forced movement in each of my parents' youths, they were happy to go no farther than Toronto, and my travels with Mr. Wife have tended generally toward places with mountains or reefs, or within Europe when we lived there (hence the nym). But at any rate we can all be grateful that there is a great deal of the city beyond Manhattan, even as we accept that it serves a useful purpose. ;-) I imagine the competition is a bit muted at the moment, yes?
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 22:43||   2008-10-22 22:43|| Front Page Top

#48 Toronto

Do you mean to say that you live in CANADA?
Then what do you know about this country?
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:46||   2008-10-22 22:46|| Front Page Top

#49 General Comment. Having drive and ambition and success doesn't even begin to capture what it means to be an American. You are as far from "getting it" as Kansas is from Moscow.
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 22:51||   2008-10-22 22:51|| Front Page Top

#50 But at any rate we can all be grateful that there is a great deal of the city beyond Manhattan

Yeah, I know of one - it's called Moscow.
I've been to Toronto, it's a village. Although people appear to be nice.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:51||   2008-10-22 22:51|| Front Page Top

#51 No, dear. Do calm down. My darling mother-in-law came from Quebec, but she finally got her American citizenship some years ago. I grew up in Buffalo, land of the wind and snow. I am first generation American, the child of two immigrants -- Mama from Germany via Holland, Daddy from Latvia via Israel. Half of Daddy's family disappeared after Russia conquered Latvia, most of the rest after the Nazis marauded east. Mr. Wife's company sent us to Frankfurt in 1991 while he helped open the Eastern European markets one by one, then to Brussels in '95 while he finished with Russia. Then they sent us back to Cincinnati, where we've been ever since.

I hear tell Canadians make good beer, though.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 22:55||   2008-10-22 22:55|| Front Page Top

#52 General Comment. Having drive and ambition and success doesn't even begin to capture what it means to be an American. You are as far from "getting it" as Kansas is from Moscow.

"Not long ago I recived a letter from a man. I do not know why he wrote it, but I am glad that he did. He wrote that 'you could come to Germany but never become German, you could come to France but never become French, he went on to recite other countries. But then he ended, you could come to America and become an American . . . .'

And I am proud that you have chosen to become my fellow Americans."

(reciting from memory, Ronald Reagan)

Now, YOU tell me what does it mean to be an American? Do you know yourself?
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 22:59||   2008-10-22 22:59|| Front Page Top

#53 Oh, and Toronto is actually a lot of villages, all living cheek by jowl, much like London. It's a lovely place to visit.

Other than that, we've got quite a few Canadian correspondents here at Rantburg. You aren't the only emigre Russian, either. There's an Israeli physicist who calls himself g(r)omgoru, who waxed quite indignant over the necessary Russian-South Ossetian self-defence pact a few weeks ago. And our badanov isn't actually Russian, although he plays one quite competently in war games, and apparently has a spicy vocabulary. I can't swear to that last, because they kept cancelling the Russian classes for lack of students when I was at university, so I finally gave up and took Hebrew.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 23:02||   2008-10-22 23:02|| Front Page Top

#54 Mostly being American means thinking we have the best system in the world, despite the manifest imperfections, and wanting to be part of that badly enough to move here or stay here, and to be willing to fight for her survival if it is necessary.

In my not considered opinion. Next question? ;-)
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 23:07||   2008-10-22 23:07|| Front Page Top

#55 Please ignore the not in that last sentence fragment. Thank you.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-10-22 23:07||   2008-10-22 23:07|| Front Page Top

#56 Moscow, right now boasts the largest number of billioners on the planet, and the cost (and variety) of luxury goods basket exceeds that of New York

I hear that Zimbobwe is also awash in billionairs. I'm pretty sure they have Moscow beat.

Of course the Zimbob million dollar bill isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Posted by CrazyFool 2008-10-22 23:08||   2008-10-22 23:08|| Front Page Top

#57 And just to finish with you Betty, because people like you do annoy me.

Let me bring it to you on a poetic level:
In one of the Bruce Lee's movies, the mother of his American wife tells Bruce Lee: "You may be a U.S. citizen, but you are not American." It is a scene envisaged to cause a repulsion.

And you are repulsive Betty. Repulsive on an American cultural level.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 23:08||   2008-10-22 23:08|| Front Page Top

#58 Anyone can come to America and become American. That is the beauty of this place. America is a shared spirit. As they say, it's like p%rn: you know it when you see it, as well as when you don't.
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 23:09||   2008-10-22 23:09|| Front Page Top

#59 That is the beauty of this place. America is a shared spirit. As they say, it's like p%rn: you know it when you see it, as well as when you don't.

Excellent! Betty - hope you don't mind if I quote that....
Posted by CrazyFool 2008-10-22 23:13||   2008-10-22 23:13|| Front Page Top

#60 not at all :-)
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 23:17||   2008-10-22 23:17|| Front Page Top

#61 Mostly being American means thinking we have the best system in the world, despite the manifest imperfections, and wanting to be part of that badly enough to move here or stay here, and to be willing to fight for her survival if it is necessary.

Watch "Thank you for not smoking" when the father speaks to his son about the "best" system.
Now, having this system does not preclude a multitude of arrogant and outright moronic comments on this blog. My responses typically go to just point out overt errors. On the other hand there are fanatical lunatics, like Frank G, for example, some old geezers incessantly speaking of Vietnam era "arclight" operations to bomb anything in sight. I understand that I will never change the opinions of these ignorant bastards, but at least I can call them on their bullshit.

And that's all I have to say about that.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 23:17||   2008-10-22 23:17|| Front Page Top

#62 At some point we'll get General Comment to discuss the problems of HIV and tuberculosis in Soviet Union Russia.
Posted by Steve White 2008-10-22 23:19||   2008-10-22 23:19|| Front Page Top

#63 are you sure you aren't Aris? Cause I don't think there could be two people as obnoxiously arrogant in this entire world!
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 23:19||   2008-10-22 23:19|| Front Page Top

#64  are you sure you aren't Aris? Cause I don't think there could be two people as obnoxiously arrogant in this entire world!

I am not arrogant, I am confident. And you are out.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 23:22||   2008-10-22 23:22|| Front Page Top

#65 out of what? Cause nothing has changed for me.
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 23:24||   2008-10-22 23:24|| Front Page Top

#66 GC -- what started out as a good discussion of the Russian army and Russia itself, has now become nothing but a contest of who has the better verbage to call us all not as good an American as you.

How about a rest? Your last, at least 20 posts have nothing to do with the purpose of this 'Burg.

You've got some folks here just havin' fun with you, and you're not even recognizing it, so, you might want to take a break.

And, I don't want some BS response from you about me.... you don't know me, you will never know me, therefore, you know nothing of my history, my talents, my experiences, my life works, so don't go doing some "intern lawyering" response to me --- your speech patterns, your arguments, read more like an intern, rather than an experienced lawyer..

You might find a more suitable place to practice your "rebuttals." Some pretty smart folks here, with lots of life experiences, work experiences, history in the making experience, and talent experiences.

You might just be in over your head.
Posted by Sherry">Sherry  2008-10-22 23:24||   2008-10-22 23:24|| Front Page Top

#67 Sherry, If you read the posts carefully, you will see that my reasonable posts were met with offenses and accusations of being a KGB-paid propagandist.

I have made my point to quiet those people, that's all. Also, Sherry, I am a bit tired of you telling me that I am "over my head." You have correctly noted that I know nothing about you, and I do not. However, you do not know much about me either. You, dear, may be over your head big time on so many levels, OKay? And not only you.

I suggest we put this behind, so that I can continue my postings on the narrow issues pertaining to Russia.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 23:35||   2008-10-22 23:35|| Front Page Top

#68 I am not arrogant, I am confident. And you are out.

ok. But you ARE Aris, are you not?
Posted by Betty 2008-10-22 23:39||   2008-10-22 23:39|| Front Page Top

#69 No, I thought the Mods have already established that.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-10-22 23:42||   2008-10-22 23:42|| Front Page Top

#70 I wonder if, form the russian view, there's a combination of good news and horrible news in the military effects of these moves. The good being a variation of Rumsfeldian reorganization and discipline being brought into a long unremodeled system. The bad being preparation for the ongoing demographic sinkhole the russians are falling into - they must get smaller because they get smaller every passing day.

Commodity price crash cannot help, and the recent PR moves likely belie great hollowness - the military calls on Hugo, the loan to Iceland, he gas cartel with Iran/Qatar. Compare these with the largely uncovered US moves into Africa and south asia, which represent substantial actions and may lead to strategic changes, and China's greater moves, and russia seems to be tilting at windmills.

Posted by Don Vito Omeling5062 2008-10-22 23:52||   2008-10-22 23:52|| Front Page Top

#71 CG -- you're giving yourself away -- the above comment by me, is the first I've ever made to you... so don't be telling me, "I'm a bit tired of you....."

And, these folks don't need to be quieted....

You admitted you don't know me, then stated that I'm in over my head? Oppssss

Won't fly.... no way....

So, if you want to return to facts supporting your beliefs of Russia, have at it (and quotes from Wikipedia do not count). Stay on your narrow topic, that's your focus, so have at it....

But there is an Officer and a Gentleman decorum around here....got that straight from an American movie.

Lay off of this who said what to whom first... you are using lots of Mr. Puitt's bandwidth (money costing adventure)doing so. That is just not how we do things here in the 'Burg.... It's takes a stronger person to take the barbs, letting them roll off your back.

Try that approach, and you might find, you just might be able to have a conversation with folks here.

Oh -- and have you hit Fred's tip jar lately? I'm sure he would appreciate it. He is, after all, providing you with space, time and an audience to hear your views.

It's cheaper than having your own blog -- so go and do the right thing.
Posted by Sherry">Sherry  2008-10-22 23:57||   2008-10-22 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:58 3dc
23:57 Sherry
23:52 Don Vito Omeling5062
23:51 ex-lib
23:46 ex-lib
23:42 General_Comment
23:39 Betty
23:35 General_Comment
23:35 clipatuillath
23:34 JosephMendiola
23:31 USN, Ret.
23:24 Sherry
23:24 Betty
23:22 General_Comment
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:19 Betty
23:19 Steve White
23:17 General_Comment
23:17 Betty
23:15 JosephMendiola
23:14 USN, Ret.
23:13 CrazyFool
23:09 Betty
23:09 JosephMendiola









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