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2007-06-12 Iraq

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Posted by Fred 2007-06-12 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11131 views ] Top

#1 Once you've decided not to impose your will - as has been the case since the outset in this case -there are an endless variety of expedient measures you will come up with on the path to either disastrous failure or mediocre semi-success. Not a bad approach in some situations, but not usually in those where you've invested so much blood and treasure, and where the potential payoff from a real success is so great.

The discouraging thing is that the ardor for leverage and finesse and other forms of magic seems even greater among the uniforms than among the civilians. There are no military solutions to military problems - don't forget it.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-06-12 02:24|| 2007-06-12 02:24|| Front Page Top

#2 Or, maybe, the military realized that their political masters' theories is a pile of sh*t, and the only practical WOT solution is regional destabilization?

Posted by gromgoru 2007-06-12 05:20|| 2007-06-12 05:20|| Front Page Top

#3 comment test

Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-06-12 09:19|| 2007-06-12 09:19|| Front Page Top

#4 regional destabilization is a very cruel and machiavellian strategy that only assures extended misery and conflict. Long term peace and prosperity can never be achieved by stirring up conflict between people who would get along just fine if organized forces were not at work.

I say that fully understanding the concept that the Koran is basically is a handbook for destabilization. But before AQ, Turkey, Indonesia showed that it was possible for them to begin a reformation.

The only thing that works - and what works in the US is balance of power. Allowing the strong/ambitious/ruthless to claw their way to the top but placed in check by other strong/ambitious/ruthless folks who clawed their way to the top. What makes for peace is including a method for the people to keep the powerful in check. Voting is basically just a revolution without guns.

I think we need to keep our own interests in sight. No nukes in Iran, no terrorist bases or support, oil etc and then to support democracy where we can. We need to do it with a show of force that is not wimpy or unconditional - and then allow the countries to fight their own battles.

Look at Palestine. If they were left alone they would get sick of the infighting. With outside support for democracy instead of chaos, after about one generation their lot would improve. The way it is being done now, this conflict will extend into eternity.

The problem is only Bush, among the world leaders, had the ability to think so long term.

Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-06-12 09:38|| 2007-06-12 09:38|| Front Page Top

#5 Look at Palestine. If they were left alone they would get sick of the infighting

You almost had me until there. They are being left alone and now killing each other in increasing number (wherese them damn bouncing yeller smilers?). They'll never get sick of it, they've been bred, educated and paid for killing for 3 generations.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-06-12 12:17|| 2007-06-12 12:17|| Front Page Top

#6 Shipman - well, you are probably right about the Palestinians. But left to their own devices maybe they would just exterminate themselves.

I think the best thing that happened to the Palestinians was they were allowed to vote - they voted for terrorists and now they get to live with the decision that they, themselves made. Maybe it will help them to make better choices in the future.

Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-06-12 14:17|| 2007-06-12 14:17|| Front Page Top

#7 Perhaps you are correct Mister Tojo, but it's gonna take a lot of dead palis to get to the exhausted level. Usually it's around 3% of the general population - pals being hammerheads I figure 5% to 9%, pretty much a general slaughter.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-06-12 15:51|| 2007-06-12 15:51|| Front Page Top

#8 regional destabilization is a very cruel and machiavellian strategy that only assures extended misery and conflict.

Have you considered the possibility that, much like the current Palestinian festivities, this may be the only way for these psychotically violent cultures to learn how counterproductive Islam is to real progress and industrialization?

Long term peace and prosperity can never be achieved by stirring up conflict between people who would get along just fine if organized forces were not at work.

The point is that these people have NEVER gotten "along just fine" since the advent of Islam. As of now, they've decided to begin killing US in large numbers at the earliest opportunity. In my book, that means destabilizing them to create internal conflict which distracts these thugs from their goal of killing us is a good thing.

I say that fully understanding the concept that the Koran is basically is a handbook for destabilization.

So, in effect, you're saying that what's sauce for their own goose (for both anti-American and internal consumption), is not sauce that we should apply to the Islamic gander? Please explain.

But before AQ, Turkey, Indonesia showed that it was possible for them to begin a reformation.

Turkey and Indonesia are pretty piss poor examples of Islamic "reformation". Both of these countries are sliding, in Indonesia's case voluntarily, into Islamic chaos.

you are probably right about the Palestinians. But left to their own devices maybe they would just exterminate themselves.

And why should this policy not apply to our Islamic enemies wherever they may be? The only mitigating factor in all of this is the narrow time window Western nations have before more MME (Muslim Middle East) countries gain access to nuclear weapons. That one development is what constrains the otherwise useful aspect of letting our enemies slaughter each other.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-12 15:59|| 2007-06-12 15:59|| Front Page Top

#9 Zenster - at one time Catholics and Protestants fought each other. These things take hundreds of years and multiple generations to go away. Regional destablization works in the short term but if stirred up by outside forces - how do the people who live there resolve issues that wouldn't exist if people outside their own country didn't exploit them? It just perpetuates the fighting, hatred and divisions.

I'm not suggesting that we don't fight back or assure that our interests are protected. I'm simply saying that I think that if you want to look to the short term, regional destabilization does work. But in the long term, setting up governments representing the wishes of the people will be the death of Islam. And AQ and the Mullahs know it. The kids don't want to walk around in burlap sacks and not get to listen to their ipods or hold hands. They want to wear cool jeans and have a My Space page. The Koran doesn't allow it. Islam as it once existed is already dead.

Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-06-12 21:27|| 2007-06-12 21:27|| Front Page Top

#10 My key interest is not being made part of the Caliphate while waiting for the long term, under threat of nuclear or other terrorist attack. Because the trailing daughters and I won't be given the choice of conversion rather than death; The various jihadi spokesmen have made it very clear that the Jews will be erased from the sight of their god. I realize I'm being a bit hysterical about this, but there it is, I'm afraid.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-06-12 22:32|| 2007-06-12 22:32|| Front Page Top

#11 These things take hundreds of years and multiple generations to go away.

Watch my lips move ... we don't have the time. Any questions?

regional destabilization does work

You tell what does, besides costly military intervention or massive amounts of irradiated glass.

I realize I'm being a bit hysterical about this, but there it is, I'm afraid.

Dear trailing wife, you are most definitely NOT being hysterical at all. As a rational, thinking non-Muslim American woman, you have every right to be repulsed and horrified by the prospect even the slightest degree of any sort of global caliphate.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-06-12 22:52|| 2007-06-12 22:52|| Front Page Top

23:51 trailing wife
23:45 bigjim-ky
23:44 trailing wife
23:44 bigjim-ky
23:39 trailing wife
23:32 Zenster
23:29 Zenster
23:07 Alaska Paul
23:02 trailing wife
22:57 trailing wife
22:56 Natural Law
22:52 Zenster
22:49 Pappy
22:45 trailing wife
22:36 trailing wife
22:33 Zenster
22:32 trailing wife
22:27 Pappy
22:23 badanov
22:10 airandee
21:41 Natural Law
21:28 Anonymoose
21:27 Angaiger Tojo1904
21:25 Natural Law