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2007-05-16 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

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Posted by BrerRabbit 2007-05-16 05:50|| || Front Page|| [7 views ] Top

#1 And like most Soviet schemes, it blew up in their faces.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-05-16 07:54|| 2007-05-16 07:54|| Front Page Top

#2 I think it is absurd. If my memory doesn't fail me the Mig 25 was a pure interceptor optimized for fighting a projected (project was cancelled) Mach 2+ American bomber. Her payload was limited, radar was primitive even for a soviet fighter (she relied on land based ones) and her manueverability very poor. In other words when faced with other fighters her pilot would have hgad two choices: try to outrun them or die. And once you put enouugh ordnance for harming a nuclear plant the Mig 25 would no longer be able to outrun his opponents...

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-05-16 08:18|| 2007-05-16 08:18|| Front Page Top

#3 Also even if Mig25's maiden flight was in 1964 I think she still had not entered service...

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-05-16 08:21|| 2007-05-16 08:21|| Front Page Top

#4 The article clearly states that the authors failed to find any documentation backing their claims, and were relying on postevent & even post-Berlin Wall accounts by alleged participants. Given that I wouldn't trust post-Soviet accounts from Russian sources on historical matters if they told me that the sun was yellow and occasionally warm, I can't imagine why anyone'd expect me to take this sort of historical skylarking without period documentation seriously.

At least the JPost managed to find Michael Oren to dump cold water all over their thesis. Towards the bottom of the inverted pyramid, along with the admissions by the authors of their lack of documentation. Bah.

Posted by Flolumble Panda5925">Flolumble Panda5925 2007-05-16 08:28|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2007-05-16 08:28|| Front Page Top

#5 ...Wow. Where to even BEGIN taking this pile of poo apart?...

First, the Foxbat didn't even get into SOVIET service until 1970, and only then in limited numbers, and for damned good reasons: it initially stunk at doing anything other than going in a straight line, very fast, and then only for a very limited period of time before the engines turned into junk. And how exactly were they going to get them over Dimona without aerial refueling, whhich the early Foxbats at least didn't have? They could have been forward based in Syria or Iraq, but that would have been unlikely at best with an aircraft whose reliablity was at best questionable.

Soviet strategic bomber pilots hitting Dimona - okay, but flying from within the USSR would have led to a Fail-Safe level confrontation, and forward basing them in a Soviet ally would have raised a red flag.

Soviet missile subs offshore? Possible, but as soon as they started moving to launch depth, the USN attack subs that were tracking them would have sunk them.

And a '30 man force' taking down Haifa? Only in a movie.

In short - a really great plot for a thriller, but a lousy operational plan.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2007-05-16 09:14|| 2007-05-16 09:14|| Front Page Top

#6 JFM, the MiG-25 FOXBAT, at least by 1976, had a very sophisticated and effective two channel monopulse radar called FOXFIRE. We got a very good look at it in 1976 after Viktor Belenko landed his MiG-25 in Japan. As you said, it was designed for high altitude intercept of aircraft such as the U-2 and SR-71. The high altitude bomber, the B-70 Valkyrie, never went to production. The shoot down of Francis Gary Powers on May Day 1960 ended the era of high altitude penetration.

The MiG-25 was a pure interceptor. I don't recall any avionics that could have been used to make it into an attack aircraft, let alone a bomber.

I believe this article to be in the best traditions of modern journalism, just made up.

Posted by RWV 2007-05-16 09:51|| 2007-05-16 09:51|| Front Page Top

#7 So how much does a stringer get paid for creative fiction like this? (always on the look out for easy money)

I think I could make up better stories.

Posted by 3dc 2007-05-16 11:19|| 2007-05-16 11:19|| Front Page Top

#8 "The shoot down of Francis Gary Powers on May Day 1960 ended the era of high altitude penetration." Respectfully disagree, RVW. The SR-71 Blackbird family did not limit their flight to only sideways-looking recon; at Mach 3+ and 100K altitude they routinely overflew hostile territory. i will agree that the FGP shootdown ended U2 overflights, but by then the Blackbird was already in work. the original CIA version (A-12) first flew IIRC in 61, and the YF-12 shortly thereafter.

Posted by USN. Ret. 2007-05-16 14:59|| 2007-05-16 14:59|| Front Page Top

#9 We got a very good look at it in 1976 after Viktor Belenko landed his MiG-25 in Japan.

Legend has it that American CIA agents had the plane curtained off on the tarmac before Japanese security could even arrive at the scene. Supposedly, Belenko was taken to the United States and shown around some big cities. The story goes that he absolutely refused to believe that such a wealth of food, goods and other products were anything but stage props to convince him to cooperate. The tale closes with Belenko being given a map and told to pick a city at random. A waiting helicopter with rotors turning then took him there at top speed and only then was Belenko convinced that his Russian worker's paradise was a concentration camp by comparison.

Anyone got some verification on these tidbits?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-16 18:02|| 2007-05-16 18:02|| Front Page Top

#10 Sounds like a homeMade Russian Story Z.

However ever Ima can tell you for certain that on arriving at Warsaw Station baby Russians traveling, thought they had arrived in Paris, weirdly enough Baby commies coming from the west thought they were arriving in Moscow.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-05-16 19:22|| 2007-05-16 19:22|| Front Page Top

#11 Don't remember the helicopter story from reading Belenko's autobiography a long time ago. The first impression he got upon landing in Japan was how extraordinarily clean and well lit everything was compared to his existence in Vladivostok. On the way to the US on a Lear type jet, he couldn't believe it took only 2 crew to operate and handled like a fighter. He was sure more crew were hidden from him. Anyway his transformation from model Soviet to American is an interesting read - Mig Pilot: The Final Escape of Lieutenant Belenko.

Posted by ed 2007-05-16 20:11|| 2007-05-16 20:11|| Front Page Top

#12 I think I might be mistaken with the Lear jet. It could have been an airliner. Anyway, the point where he broke with Soviet indoctrination was when he visited an aircraft carrier and saw flight operations. He realized that no drugged up conscript force could be forced to do the extremely complicated and dangerous flight ops without horrible accidents.

Posted by ed 2007-05-16 20:18|| 2007-05-16 20:18|| Front Page Top

#13 Ye, like Soviets needed to generate excuses.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-05-16 20:28|| 2007-05-16 20:28|| Front Page Top

#14 No, the Soviets were known back then for using Arab League proxies to SECRETLY [read - CHEAP/LOW BUDGET COST] testbed their new designs in real-time mil operations, from recce to tactical strike or both, although not necessarily in the same formal or follow-on capacity = utility as in [later] Soviet service. It is also true that the Soviets had prior knowledge of the Arab League's looming/pending attack agz Israel, + that the Soviet Mediterranean , Northern, + Black Sea fleets were put on combat alert days prior to the Israeli attack + had sent a number of attack and missle submarines off the coasts of Israel [IRC as many as nine or more] wid orders to attack Israel [and any USA milfors] iff so required by Moscow. Soviet subs for a while locally outnumbered USN-Brit subs sent to track and counter them.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-05-16 21:32|| 2007-05-16 21:32|| Front Page Top

#15 RWV has it.

One thing to note is that the USSR didn't have "an Air Force" the way Western countries do. They actually split into three components.
1. Strategic Rocket Forces.
2. VVS This is the closest to a Western style "air force." It is more tactically-oriented and its units are under the command of ground commanders.
3. PVO. This is the air defense organization and includes AAA, SAMs, and interceptor fighters.

The latter two services would order airplanes and very few would be used by the other. So, the MiG-23, say, was for the VVS as an all-around fighter, and I don't think the PVO ever got any. The MiG-25, OTOP, was for the PVO, and thus, for air defense (except a few for recon).

The MiG-25 was a pretty good plane for its role and its time. It would have been useless fighting over Western Europe, but that wasn't its role.

Posted by Jackal">Jackal 2007-05-16 22:58|| http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2007-05-16 22:58|| Front Page Top

#16 GERTZ FILE > George Tenet > PUTIN: RUSSIA UNABLE TO VERIFY/TRACK MISSING NUKES.Tenet - Putin told Dubya after 9-11. Lest we fergit, Alexander Lebed > up to 80 nukes possibly missing during 1990's, and Russia is unable to confirm their location or status.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-05-16 23:36|| 2007-05-16 23:36|| Front Page Top

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