Article

2007-04-16 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-04-16 13:05|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 My Dad's old school. Just a year or so ago the Virginia legislature rejected a law that would have allowed firearms on campus, instead preserving it as a 'gun-free zone', if I recall correctly.
I don't yet know the background of this psycho, but clearly a lot more 'competent' at killing than is typical for the type. Military experience (like Texas Tower)?

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-04-16 13:12|| 2007-04-16 13:12|| Front Page Top

#2 They're saying now that the death toll is at least 25 and expected to rise higher. It's way too early to know with any certainty what all happened, how many are injured or dead, or if it was the work of a single shooter.

Posted by Dar">Dar 2007-04-16 13:27|| 2007-04-16 13:27|| Front Page Top

#3 I went to Virginia Tech -- class of '87. According to this story from Foxnews, the gunman was "Asian" and wearing a vest covered with clips: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266310,00.html. The cops are also saying that the shootings at opposite ends of the campus seem unrelated, which is bullshit. This was two guys at work, IMHO. It might take awhile to find out if this was sudden jihadi syndrome or just a couple Columbine-style shooters.

Dear God, if only they had allowed concealed carry on campus, one of the cadets would have plugged this bastard for sure.

Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan 2007-04-16 13:29|| 2007-04-16 13:29|| Front Page Top

#4 Too bad they took the shooter alive. How many millions will be spent trying and executing this waste of skin?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-16 13:34|| 2007-04-16 13:34|| Front Page Top

#5 Governor Kaine has to cut his trade mission to Tokyo short and fly back to VA for the convocation tomorrow to begin the healing process.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2007-04-16 13:36|| 2007-04-16 13:36|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm confused now.

Apparently the first shooting was at 7:30?
But then they said the shooting resumed at 10am???

It still could have been one guy. But yeah, we need more details.

Posted by Anon4021 2007-04-16 13:38|| 2007-04-16 13:38|| Front Page Top

#7 Up to 32 dead now, and the cops are saying the gunman is dead. If there was one shooting at West Ambler Johnson at 7:30 and then the shootings at Norris Hall at 10:00, then this guy could have killed somebody while looking for his girlfriend, decided he had nothing to lose, gone home and armed himself, and then gone looking for his GF in class.

This seems less like a jihadi than somebody snapping -- although the question of where he got the heavy ordnance arises. 24-hour rule on this, at least.

Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan 2007-04-16 14:04|| 2007-04-16 14:04|| Front Page Top

#8 Death toll is now 29, possibly 32. THis is crazy! The usual nuts are out complaining about "too many guns", etc. The Virginia Tech campus is a "gun-free zone". If one of the Cadets there had actually had a firearm on him, the death toll would have probably been a lot smaller. Apparently the shooter is dead, so we'll have to try to piece together why he did this from incomplete evidence.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-04-16 14:06|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-04-16 14:06|| Front Page Top

#9 Just heard on the local news that the killer was Asian ???

Posted by Gleger Big Foot5670 2007-04-16 14:12|| 2007-04-16 14:12|| Front Page Top

#10 My heart goes out to all the familes that will be burying a child. All because a lunatic took it upon himself to play God. How tragic. How senseless.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-16 14:13|| 2007-04-16 14:13|| Front Page Top

#11 I just a saw a photo on Channel 4 news of a cop handcuffing some Oriental guy on the floor. They also seem to be saying that some of the victims were lined up against a wall and executed.

Posted by Sonar 2007-04-16 14:15|| 2007-04-16 14:15|| Front Page Top

#12 Firearms speculation is now on 9mm. A couple of pistols and 100 rounds could easily be hidden in a backpack. Also a very cold day, so many heavily dressed kids.
Sounds like the storyline isbeginning to stabilize, but there are still reports that soem injured are in critical condition.

Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-16 14:19|| 2007-04-16 14:19|| Front Page Top

#13 So is the killer dead or not? More than one killer? This early reporting is typical, all over the place.

Posted by Gleger Big Foot5670 2007-04-16 14:20|| 2007-04-16 14:20|| Front Page Top

#14 Not that easy to kill 32 plus people with a 9 mm pistol.

Posted by Gleger Big Foot5670 2007-04-16 14:21|| 2007-04-16 14:21|| Front Page Top

#15 Reports are saying that shooter had two 9 mm handguns. The 9 mm is not an impressive round so far as wound ballistics. 32 people murdered by one shooter with two 9 mm handguns. Possible but questionable. Security measures on campus must suck if there were shootings at 7:15 am and then more at between 9 and 10 am.

Shootings such as this could happen on any American campus. My nephew is a certified police officer in Ohio. He works security at a private campus; however he is not allowed to carry a firearm. Not much he could do if an armed gunman came on campus other than to try to use "conflict resolution (extreme cynicism).

Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-16 14:27|| 2007-04-16 14:27|| Front Page Top

#16 As I saw on Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" gun control episode:

"Ever notice how these killings take place in 'gun free zones' instead of a NRA convention or gun show?"

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-04-16 14:34|| 2007-04-16 14:34|| Front Page Top

#17 Suppose for a moment that students were allowed to carry firearms. Thirty-two individuals would most likely not be dead.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-16 14:37|| 2007-04-16 14:37|| Front Page Top

#18 Time between 2 events does seem plausible to me- Shooter flees first scene, walks away from scene as he watches first responders rush in, waits it out somewhere, sitting in a car, back to his plce, whatever. Security trying to investigate first scene without panicing the whole school, school following security protocols, especially since they have been dealing with bomb threats during the past days. Shooter shows up at campus building across campus, where a lot of the students went before the mass email went out.
If he had already clipped his ammo, he has 16 shots he can fire off at will, and only needs 5 to 10 seconds at most to rearm.
Biggest obstacle is finding that many targets- 32 dead plus another up to 30 wounded- in a collapsing period in time- The closest armed responder could have been clear across campus at scene 1.

Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-16 14:41|| 2007-04-16 14:41|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm thinking of a lecture hall, with three double doors at ground level and about 30 rows going down like a theater. Could easily fit 200 students in there. One guy at the top of the stairs could hit a lot of kids....

Posted by Bobby 2007-04-16 14:49|| 2007-04-16 14:49|| Front Page Top

#20 Bobby, that I can recall, Norris has at least one such lecture hall, and might have two. If it was a lower-level engineering class it would have been full of students, so all the gunman would have to do is move down the aisle; people would have been trapped in their seats by the crowd and immobilized, in essence.

Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan 2007-04-16 15:02|| 2007-04-16 15:02|| Front Page Top

#21 I just saw something on the VT board- "doors were chained shut" and "Romantic break up/ cheating" all rumors, but that is what's passing around close to the scene.

Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-16 15:06|| 2007-04-16 15:06|| Front Page Top

#22 Virginia Tech plans a 4 pm EDT press conference.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 15:08|| 2007-04-16 15:08|| Front Page Top

#23 It's already been stated but my first question was how in the Heck does one gunman do that... unless it was a lecture hall.

I'm stating the very obvious here... but either there was a reason students could not escape (lecture hall or doors chained shut) or the gunman was very, very proficient and was armed to do what he intended to do from the start.

Blackvenom-2001

Posted by Blackvenom-2001 2007-04-16 15:13|| 2007-04-16 15:13|| Front Page Top

#24 Drudge keeps adding new reports as they come in -- at the top of their webpage in red.

Apparently Virginia Tech received two credible bomb threats since the beginning of the month (on April 2nd and 13th), both aimed at engineering buildings... although it isn't clear the threats and the shootings are related.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 15:19|| 2007-04-16 15:19|| Front Page Top

#25 Blackvenom: reports thus far have one killed and a number injured at the dormitory, then the gunman went over to the engineering hall, chained the outer doors shut, and went from classroom to classroom lining up the kids and shooting them down. The FBI (or someone) is going through the shell casings to trace down the actual weapons used, and hopefully their history of ownership. Please go over to Drudge and look at the links -- you'll understand the meaning of the reports better than I.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 15:24|| 2007-04-16 15:24|| Front Page Top

#26 Pajamas Media has a roundup with links

A VTech alumnus is blogging with maps and things

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 15:29|| 2007-04-16 15:29|| Front Page Top

#27 MSNBC phone interview with one of those shot in the engineering building. link

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 15:39|| 2007-04-16 15:39|| Front Page Top

#28 wouldn't be hard too kill 32 when they are shot execution style with a 22 pistol

Posted by sinse 2007-04-16 15:40|| 2007-04-16 15:40|| Front Page Top

#29 I'm getting another gun, this time for my daughter who is a college student.
Where does the current herd of presidential candidates stand on gun control

Posted by Jan from work 2007-04-16 16:08|| 2007-04-16 16:08|| Front Page Top

#30 AFAIK the only one who can be trusted to keep his hands off the Second Amendment is Fred Thompson; and he's not even a candidate yet.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-16 16:09|| 2007-04-16 16:09|| Front Page Top

#31 O, Irony of Ironies:

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

I'm sure it made them feel safer; it just didn't make them safer.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-16 16:13|| 2007-04-16 16:13|| Front Page Top

#32 I came across this while reading more on this shooting: unf***ingbelievable yeah let's have stricter gun control, what idiots.

There are at least 29 confirmed dead in the shooting at Virginia Tech University, making it the worst campus shooting in American history.

Do you think this incident is a reason to pass stricter gun control legislation?

No. Violent shootings are isolated incidents and it's irresponsible to link them to gun control.
7,711
Yes. This shows the violence that can occur when someone has access to handguns.3,743
I'm not sure. I need more information.300
Total Vote: 11,754

Posted by Jan from work 2007-04-16 16:14|| 2007-04-16 16:14|| Front Page Top

#33 Between the 300 that "don't know" and the almost 4,000 idiots out there this drives me crazy

Posted by Jan from work 2007-04-16 16:17|| 2007-04-16 16:17|| Front Page Top

#34 Yup. Same here. It's bogglesome.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-16 16:29|| 2007-04-16 16:29|| Front Page Top

#35 23 It's already been stated but my first question was how in the Heck does one gunman do that...

I am no expert, but a simple news junkie.
If you follow the trends from Columbine, through the Amish schoolhouse through today, at first it is hard to see any correlation. HS, Off site shooter, College campus. However, I see a couple of things coming together. First, all 3 are "element of suprise", multiple murders ending in suicide. In Columbine, heavy multiple option firepower, little attempt at crowd control. Amish school less firepower, more crowd control, possible seige mentality. Today, limited but standardized lethal firepower, possibly chained doors, possible "deversion" tactic. I would not be suprised if todays shooter was a "student" of the methods used in PA and Columbine. By that I mean they read alot about the "how to" lessons from that incident. I felt the same way from reading about the Amish schoolgirl killer- that he took lessons from Columbine.
The most unexpected component of the Lancaster shooting was the grace and faith of the Amish. With such a horrific killing at a state funded university, expect the legal fallout to be much much uglier, the search for someone to blame, to sue, to regulate to become a watershed moment for the country. Of course, in todays state of political debate, we will NEVER reach a national consensus on what should be done. I predict campus life, across the nation, may never be the same, and for that I am profoundly sad.
In a completely sarcastic summation, I can visualize Imus putting shaking his head saying "why oh why couldn't I have waited a week before getting diarrhea of the mouth".

God Bless the families that received horrific phone calls today. I called my college daughter to say "I love you"...just because I could.

Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-16 16:37|| 2007-04-16 16:37|| Front Page Top

#36 Cell phone video with audio of gunshots seems to indicate the shots were deliberate and slow-paced.

Posted by Dar">Dar 2007-04-16 16:39|| 2007-04-16 16:39|| Front Page Top

#37 With such a horrific killing at a state funded university, expect the legal fallout to be much much uglier, the search for someone to blame, to sue, to regulate to become a watershed moment for the country.

I fear you are absolutely right. This is big and it could break either way.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-04-16 16:58|| 2007-04-16 16:58|| Front Page Top

#38 I'm thinking that if the shooter was even "moderately" known to the campus community, his name would have been leaked by now.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 17:31|| 2007-04-16 17:31|| Front Page Top

#39 They keep saying "Asian", and I keep hearing the British definition of "Asian". Likely they're using the American definition, though.

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2007-04-16 17:45|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2007-04-16 17:45|| Front Page Top

#40 The Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia all have radical Muslim contingents ripe for Sudden Jihad Syndrome, and their citizens could easily be read as "Asian" because of general appearance, even though Americans generally equate Asian with Chinese/Japanese/Korean.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 17:53|| 2007-04-16 17:53|| Front Page Top

#41 Was thinking the same thing TW. Then I ran into this.

One student, Jamal Albarghouti, filmed the scene on campus with his mobile phone, images that were broadcast on CNN even before the full scale of the massacre had been revealed.

He just happened to have a camera. A link to one student's blog. Shooter's name still hasn't been provided.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 18:20|| 2007-04-16 18:20|| Front Page Top

#42 The latest report I read stated that LE still hasn't ID'd the guy because there were no items of identification on the shooter's person. Not even a wallet? Now that is strange. It appears to me that the "broken heart" hypothesis is getting harder to support.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 18:23|| 2007-04-16 18:23|| Front Page Top

#43 Very often when tragedies occur such as the one at Virginia Tech, there is a renewed clamor for gun control. I might add the following:

1. Very often these incidents occur where there is strict gun control. Law abiding citizens who obey the regulations only suffer because they cannot protect themselves or anyone else. The only ones that end up being armed are the police and thugs.
2. The shooters take advantage of these situations where they know that no one is armed and they can carry out their plan without a threat of being thwarted.
3. One should not put their safety and security in the hands of police because very often they are not around when you need them.
4. An armed society is a civil society.
5. Security is generally a myth. Consider 911, Columbine, or any other tragic situation where some thug or punk decides to shoot up, murder or destroy the place.
6. People are killed with autos, trucks, golf clubs, rocks, baseball bats, knives, bowling balls, poisons, airplanes, shovels, axes, screwdrivers, explosives, etc. All the instruments that people use to kill each other cannot be controlled. Obviously it is the individual and not the instrument of killing that is the problem.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-16 18:24|| 2007-04-16 18:24|| Front Page Top

#44 Debbie has some interesting points.

Terrorism Expert Bill Warner says the shooting is professional, appears to be the result of military training: As of 5:30 the link was off/B>

THIS IS MILITARY TYPE SHOOTING, NO NAME YET, BUT 62 PEOPLE SHOT AND 32 DEAD AND SOME ON THE WAY OUT (30 IN HOSPITALS), THIS HAS TO BE HIGH POWERED AMMO (HIGH KILL RATE) FROM WHAT WOULD BE TWO 9MM HANDGUNS WITH AT LEAST A 15 ROUND CLIP (POLICE CLIPS ARE 15) AND BACK UP AMMO CLIPS.
IF 62 STUDENTS ARE SHOT AT AND ARE HIT AND 32 OF THEM ARE DEAD AND OTHERS ARE CRITICAL, THIS GUY HAD MILITARY TRAINING. NO ONE CAN DO THIS KIND OF HANDGUN SHOOTING WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFECT WITHOUT A LOT OF TRAINING, THESE PEOPLE WERE MOVING TARGETS, NOT STATIONARY PAPER TARGETS.

And It will be interesting to note if the person is Pakistani or perhaps from Indonesia. Tech is an internationally recognized engineering school and draws from a lot of countries like India and Pakistan where engineering schools either don't exist or are poor in comparison. However, it's the wealthy of those countries who can afford to send their children there.

The longer it takes for name release, the more I think ROP.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 18:32|| 2007-04-16 18:32|| Front Page Top

#45 WHAT WOULD BE TWO 9MM HANDGUNS WITH AT LEAST A 15 ROUND CLIP (POLICE CLIPS ARE 15) AND BACK UP AMMO CLIPS.

There is no ban on high capacity magazines. Anyone can buy them.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-16 18:38|| 2007-04-16 18:38|| Front Page Top

#46 NBC reports:

1) No ID on the shooter
2) He shot himself in the face, making ID difficult
3) Fingerprints have not matched those on file (assuming national database).
4) NBC also reports that an LE leak states that the "broken heart" scenario from earlier reports may not be accurate.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 18:45|| 2007-04-16 18:45|| Front Page Top

#47 Hre is the realpuzzler:

After the first shootings they didne even lock down the dorm they happened in, and despite not having the shooter in custody, TOLD THE KIDS TO GO TO CLASS - and didnt even interrupt classes!

WTF is wrong with the school officials?

Had they reacted promptly and locked down the campus, the later shootings and deaths could probably have been avoided.

Given the rural location, had guns not been outlawed there, the probability for an armed response by a potentital victim is fairly high.

All "gun fress zones" do is designate freefire target areas.

Stupid bastards.

Posted by Glatle Crens4336 2007-04-16 18:48|| 2007-04-16 18:48|| Front Page Top

#48 Local FOX affiliate WFXR-TV in Richmond reported that one shooting occurred between 7:15 a.m. and 7:30 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, and another at 10 a.m. at Norris Hall. The schools Web site confirmed the shooting at opposite ends of the 2,600-acre campus.

Police also said there is no evidence the two shootings at opposite ends of campus were related

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 18:49|| 2007-04-16 18:49|| Front Page Top

#49 There is no such thing as a "dangerous weapon" - there are only dangerous people. The Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force in this country train their people to be "dangerous". The Army and Marines (plus a few select others) go far beyond using firearms, and train their people to use knives, rope, bare hands, and anything else lying around. Idiots blame TOOLS - intelligent people understand that it's people who kill other people. Controlling tools only makes it easier for wackos to operate in a low-risk environment. The chancellor and regents of Virginia Tech are as much responsible for these deaths as the monster that committed them, because they made it impossible for these students to defend themselves.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-04-16 19:10|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-04-16 19:10|| Front Page Top

#50 NBC also reported that there was a cell phone near the shooter's body, but confirmation as to whether the phone belonged to the shooter.

One of the eyewitnesses stated that as the police ordered her and her classmates to evacuate the building, she noticed a massive pool of blood in the stairwell. She learned that students from the higher floors had used the stairs to evacuate, only to discover that the stairwell exit door had been cabled shut. The shooter was waiting for them and slaughtered them. That's battlespace prep.

I smell a professional cell at work.

I

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 19:19|| 2007-04-16 19:19|| Front Page Top

#51 Make that "NO" confirmation that the cell phone belonged to the shooter.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 19:21|| 2007-04-16 19:21|| Front Page Top

#52 THIS IS MILITARY TYPE SHOOTING, NO NAME YET, BUT 62 PEOPLE SHOT AND 32 DEAD AND SOME ON THE WAY OUT (30 IN HOSPITALS), THIS HAS TO BE HIGH POWERED AMMO (HIGH KILL RATE) FROM WHAT WOULD BE TWO 9MM HANDGUNS WITH AT LEAST A 15 ROUND CLIP (POLICE CLIPS ARE 15) AND BACK UP AMMO CLIPS.
IF 62 STUDENTS ARE SHOT AT AND ARE HIT AND 32 OF THEM ARE DEAD AND OTHERS ARE CRITICAL, THIS GUY HAD MILITARY TRAINING. NO ONE CAN DO THIS KIND OF HANDGUN SHOOTING WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFECT WITHOUT A LOT OF TRAINING, THESE PEOPLE WERE MOVING TARGETS, NOT STATIONARY PAPER TARGETS.

Ugly line of thought-can't be dismissed. Managing 2 firearms, either the guy is lucky or good. Ample range time and a combination of video game training? I'm not sure at close range if ammo makes the hugh difference, but obviously he selected that for the desired effect as well.

Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-16 19:30|| 2007-04-16 19:30|| Front Page Top

#53 #10 My heart goes out to all the familes that will be burying a child. All because a lunatic took it upon himself to play God. How tragic. How senseless.
Posted by: Zenster 2007-04-16 14:13

Ditto Zenster - My deepest sympathies to all families involved in this senseless waste of human life. My thoughts and prayers are with them all. May their dear souls Rest in Peace

Posted by rpg7 2007-04-16 19:40|| 2007-04-16 19:40|| Front Page Top

#54 There was a bomb threat sent to VTU exactly a week ago.

Excerpt from today's Editor And Publisher:

On April 3, The Roanoke Times reported: "A written bomb threat led Virginia Tech to evacuate a 100,000-square-foot building, cancel the classes within it, and close a major gateway to the campus for much of Monday.

Exactly one week ago.

The evacuation took place at 1:20 PM in the afternoon. It was well-observed, I think. LE response times, evacuation routes, etc.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 19:41|| 2007-04-16 19:41|| Front Page Top

#55 It seems the guy was fairly proficient with the weapons he had. He either had some professional training or spent a fair amount of time getting proficient.

I'm waiting to hear more. Of all the reports of people that saw the shooter, no one seems to recognize him. That would suggest he is not a student. Could be Asian islamonut. Have not heard anything to this effect though. One shooter could have gotten from one side of campus to the other. Could have been two shooters too. There is some video of a policeman with a gun on some guy on the ground who appears to be handcuffed.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-16 19:43|| 2007-04-16 19:43|| Front Page Top

#56 Sorry, the first VTU bomb threat was on April 2 (two weeks ago). The latest bomb threat was last Friday.

Complete article from Editor and Publisher here.

I will now chill. :)

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 19:48|| 2007-04-16 19:48|| Front Page Top

#57 Idiots blame TOOLS - intelligent people understand that it's people who kill other people. Controlling tools only makes it easier for wackos to operate in a low-risk environment. The chancellor and regents of Virginia Tech are as much responsible for these deaths as the monster that committed them, because they made it impossible for these students to defend themselves.

Word, Old Patriot. I predict the University administration will be hung out to dry on this. After the first bullet was fired, that entire school should have gone into lockdown for 12-24 hours.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-16 19:49|| 2007-04-16 19:49|| Front Page Top

#58 Managing 2 firearms, either the guy is lucky or good. Ample range time and a combination of video game training?

I can't remember seeing a video game that would give anything like real training. The guns are typically too light, and always lack recoil.

One thing to look for, though -- reloader. Not a thing, but a person. Empty gun #1, toss it to reloader and keep shooting with #2. Swap as needed.

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2007-04-16 19:50|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2007-04-16 19:50|| Front Page Top

#59 http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/

Posted by One Eyed Slump4552 2007-04-16 19:55|| 2007-04-16 19:55|| Front Page Top

#60 After the first bullet was fired, that entire school should have gone into lockdown for 12-24 hours.

I disagree. Initial information is never complete, and if they locked down the campus on every report of a disturbance, they'd never be open.

Seriously; when I was in college, one of the dorm rooms caught a stray round from down the hill (the projects). Granted, no one was hurt, but that shit happens. And if you overreact too often...

I have a hard time blaming the university administration this early. Once we know more, if they screwed up, it'll be obvious. Until we know more, cut them some slack. You can be sure as hell they're all beating themselves up.

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2007-04-16 19:55|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2007-04-16 19:55|| Front Page Top

#61 The evacuation took place at 1:20 PM in the afternoon. It was well-observed, I think. LE response times, evacuation routes, etc.

Possibly.

Important thing to remember: the more likely this was a jihadi, the less likely we'll get any details.

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2007-04-16 19:57|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2007-04-16 19:57|| Front Page Top

#62 I can't help but wonder if we are becoming so numb to these shootings since our world has been getting so snarly, explaining why the lock down didn't occur as it should have?
I've called my daughter that's in college, and some friends that survived the Platte Canyon high school shootings.
This tragic horror is so senseless.

Posted by Jan at work 2007-04-16 20:01|| 2007-04-16 20:01|| Front Page Top

#63 We would already know if he was a jeebus freak.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2007-04-16 20:03|| 2007-04-16 20:03|| Front Page Top

#64 Glatle Crens4336 how do you lock down a sprawling campus of 25,000 students and faculty? It's way to early in the investigation to blame anyone but the shooter.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-04-16 20:22|| 2007-04-16 20:22|| Front Page Top

#65 Shooter ID, per John Gibson Fox Radio. 24 year old Chinese man, arrived August '06 on student visa.

Something smells.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 20:35|| 2007-04-16 20:35|| Front Page Top

#66 Bbungle 4/16/2007 5:06:25 pm PDT

All I know is that Fox News was scrolling "first shooter not captured or shot". That sounds like the first shooter was not the second shooter who shot himself, doesn't it?

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 20:38|| 2007-04-16 20:38|| Front Page Top

#67 Deac you're wrong. You can shhut down a public area quickly- and I know that campus being from Roanoke and having gone there.

A few campus police patrol units with bullhorns could have alterted the entire area to do the following:

1) Lock the Dorms down (reverse 911 to the RA's woudl do this as well).

2) Tell the kids to get in and stay in their rooms (the RA's told them to go to class), or if out inthe open, get off the campus and go into Blacksburg or ride over to Radford (search/secure vehicles on their way out).

3) If possible, have the Profs EMPTY the rooms and disperse the students to off campus from the academic buildings.

4) If caught in the buildings: Close the doors and lock them - barricade if needed. This worked for one classroom full of students - the gunman fired a few shots (tables barricaded the entrance) and moved on.

You CAN shut down a campus - and the problem here is 2 hours after the first shootings, they continued to operate as if nothing had happened. The RAs told the kids is was safe to go to their classes. The Profs continued to hold classes as if nothing had happened. The campus security didnt bother alerting anyone - even an hour after the first shootings there were still kids coming and going from the other end of the dorm.

They had 2 HOURS after the initial shootings.

2 Freaken HOURS.

They knew they didn't have the shooter in custody. They knew he had killed multiple people with a firearm or firearms.

Its inexcusable!

Posted by OldSpook 2007-04-16 20:46|| 2007-04-16 20:46|| Front Page Top

#68 LUCIANNE > VIRGINIA TECH KILLER USED EASY-TO-GET GUNS; + MCCAIN SUPPORTS GUN RIGHTS BILL IN AFTERMATCH OF VT SHOOTINGS.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-04-16 21:13|| 2007-04-16 21:13|| Front Page Top

#69 But Old Spook, they thought that the first series of shootings at the dorm were the result of a "domestic situation" -- non-student boyfriend thought girl was two-timing him, shot the girl and the RA who intervened. It was only two hours later when he started massacring the engineering students that they realized they had a real problem. Yes, they should have hunted for the shooter, but what odds of finding him if he'd fled the campus straightaway as assumed? Or stripped off the ammunition vest and the hat, and mingled with the oblivious students hurrying to classes across campus through the blowing snow?

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 21:15|| 2007-04-16 21:15|| Front Page Top

#70 They knew they didn't have the shooter in custody. They knew he had killed multiple people with a firearm or firearms.

No dice Rob Crawford. I'm going with Old Spook on this one. The shooter was not apprehended so a potential threat still existed. This isn't something tossed from a dorm window, fisticuffs or a frat party gone out of control. This was gunfire with known fatalities and that's a whole 'nuther story. Campus security was irresponsible, fatally so for dozens of kids.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-16 21:35|| 2007-04-16 21:35|| Front Page Top

#71 Or stripped off the ammunition vest and the hat, and mingled with the oblivious students hurrying to classes across campus through the blowing snow?

The point remains that if the school had gone into lockdown, any movements by the shooter would probably have been far more conspicuous.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-16 21:38|| 2007-04-16 21:38|| Front Page Top

#72 Gonna go to "Wondering Out Loud Land" here...

Reading on Drudge that the shooter may be a Chinese exchange student, here since August.

Okay, given the Chinese interest in "unconventional warfare" in a conflict against the US, and the apparent professional nature of the attack, what if this guy is a sleeper agent sent to cause mischief in the event of war.

But he's unstable and get's lit off all on his own (meaning the short time since August was enough to put this jerk over the edge?).

Or the shooter swapped clothes with a victim, takes his ID and shoots him in the face, covering his (jihadi?) tracks to make an escape. Making the Chinese aspect a dodge.

The domestic shooting at first... a setup to pull the cops out of the way, or just a random event the killer took advantage of?

< /weird musing off>

Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats 2007-04-16 21:49|| 2007-04-16 21:49|| Front Page Top

#73 LotR, that's the stuff of the Kos kiddies, not rational folks like us here at Rantburg IMO.

Actually, I was just surfing to see what sorts of conspiracy theories are starting to pop up on the web already. Not much luck thus far - may be far too early and folks are a little to shocked yet.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2007-04-16 21:54|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2007-04-16 21:54|| Front Page Top

#74 More on who they think the shooter is link:

Authorities were investigating whether the gunman who killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history was a Chinese man who arrived in the United States last year on a student visa.

The 24-year-old man arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups, the source said. Police believe three bomb threats on the campus last week [either the reporter has new info or he's a bit confused on this point] may have been attempts by the man to test the campus security response, the source said.

The exits to the buildings where the shootings occurred were chained by the shooter, the source said.

Separately, the university president said that 11,000 people were driving onto campus first thing this morning. Which would certainly add to the chaos factor. Look, I realize I don't know enough about such things to judge, but... even distraught murderous boyfriends tend not to go on shooting sprees, right? Assuming that's really what was going on.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 22:00|| 2007-04-16 22:00|| Front Page Top

#75 FOTSGreg - Yeah, you're right. Sorry guys, just in a WTF mood tonight.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats 2007-04-16 22:01|| 2007-04-16 22:01|| Front Page Top

#76 When I came home, the wife had the news on. While she was upstairs, the interviewer asked the college student on the phone, "Don't you feel let down by the University's reaction to the first incident?"

Not surprisingly, the student said, "Yes", and my wife couldn't understand why I freaked and turned it off.

The tragedy's not bad enough, the MSM has to confict someone of dereliction of duty before the day is out. Slimeballs.

Posted by Bobby 2007-04-16 22:02|| 2007-04-16 22:02|| Front Page Top

#77 And by the way, on a lighter note, how come my article beats anonymous 5089 by 13 minutes, but HE gets all the comments?

Wahhhhhhh! It's not FAIR!

C'est le guerre, n'est pas, A5089?

Posted by Bobby 2007-04-16 22:05|| 2007-04-16 22:05|| Front Page Top

#78 NBC just commented that the police are questioning a suspect. Something about them knowing a one of the victims. The cops were pretty tight lipped about it.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 22:21|| 2007-04-16 22:21|| Front Page Top

#79 Pajamasmedia.com has a couple of links to websites that MAY belong to someone involved in the shootings (scroll down to the pistol graphic).

Items of note:

The only political posts are two Ann Coulter -related pieces which are entirely quotes from Ms. Coulter's polemical attacks on Islamists. The second piece was an odd conflation of two separate Coulter columns.

The website owner is/was a firearms fanatic. The H&K appears to me to require tax stamp - the barrel is less than 16".

Towards the bottom is a post titled "Postsecrets" with some strange wording about "enlisting" in order to pay for "the wedding".

Again, the link's owner may or may not be involved.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 22:25|| 2007-04-16 22:25|| Front Page Top

#80 Virginia Police Chief Wendell Flinchum, officials have not definitively linked the two shootings.

Campus police have identified a person of interest who is not currently in police custody. Police say the person of interest is a male who knew the female who was killed in the original double homicide at the West Ambler Johnston Hall dormitory. Flinchum also said he is not a student and that he knew the female who was killed in the original double homicide.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 22:34|| 2007-04-16 22:34|| Front Page Top

#81 New post from the site mrp mentioned:

16 April 2007 @ 10:29 pm

Coming out. I am not the shooter. Through this experience, I have received numerous death threats, slanderous accusations, and my phone is out of charge from the barrage of calls. Local police have been notified of the situation.

My original intention was to wait until I got AdSense on my site and donating all the proceeds to Charity. However, this situation has now spiraled out of control. I am now confirming that I am not the shooter. I will be available for interview by a news agency to clear my name, talk about the experience, and give my opinion on how the situation could have turned out better if other students were allowed to be armed. I will only speak with individuals who are interested in donating to charities resulting from today's events. Please e-mail all correspondence to null@vt.edu

The young man has a picture of himself further down the page at the shooting range labelled "Marine Corps Base Quantico". Again, I don't know enough to venture an opinion.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 22:53|| 2007-04-16 22:53|| Front Page Top

#82 Sounds like an odd bird.

Just found this. Could't get the page to fully open.

"Officials said the gunman acted alone. But at one point three people were seen being escorted away from Norris Hall, the teaching building where most of the shootings took place, in handcuffs. That raised at least the possibility of a wider criminal conspiracy."
source:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2455023.ece

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 22:58|| 2007-04-16 22:58|| Front Page Top

#83 Thanks, TW. His disclaimer popped up about two minutes after my reference (it figures). Drudge just put up a link to the site, announcing "HOAX!"

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 23:00|| 2007-04-16 23:00|| Front Page Top

#84 I'm taking this one with a huge grain of salt. Some fellow is claiming he sold "Mr. Cho" the guns.

Call BS all you like, but I just spent the last several hours with 3 ATF agents. I saw the shooter's picture. I know his name and home address. I also know that he used a Glock 19 and a Walther P-22. The serial number was ground off the Glock. Why would he do that and still keep the receipt in his pocket from when he bought the gun?
ATF told me that they are going to keep this low-key and not report this to the tv news. However, they cautioned that it will leak out eventually, and that I should be ready to deal with CNN, FOX, etc.
My 32 camera surveillance system recorded the event 35 days ago. This is a digital system that only keeps the video for 35 days. We got lucky.
By the way, the paperwork for Mr. Cho was perfect, thank God.

Damn man, it called BS because it just seems fucked up and odd for him to have a receipt in his pocket.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-04-16 23:10|| 2007-04-16 23:10|| Front Page Top

#85 My 32 camera surveillance system

Is that normal for a gun shop? I think the local branch of my bank only has one camera.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 23:16|| 2007-04-16 23:16|| Front Page Top

#86 I'd be a lot more concerned if his name was "Mr. Wo Fat IV". :)

Posted by mrp 2007-04-16 23:20|| 2007-04-16 23:20|| Front Page Top

#87 Icerigger, I clicked on the man's profile, and he's got a history at that site. He also lists http://www.roanokefirearms.com/ as his website. Good find -- it sounds/looks like the real deal... although actually I've never been in a gun shop, so my expertise is perhaps a bit suspect.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-16 23:23|| 2007-04-16 23:23|| Front Page Top

#88 With all the lawsuits lately against gun makers and gun stores, having a camera security system of decent quality is not something I'd be surprised at for a gun dealer. Not in the slightest.

Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick 2007-04-16 23:50|| 2007-04-16 23:50|| Front Page Top

23:53 Brian H
23:50 Silentbrick
23:44 gorb
23:34 Zenster
23:31 trailing wife
23:29 RD
23:27 RD
23:27 newc
23:23 trailing wife
23:20 mrp
23:16 trailing wife
23:13 Hyper
23:10 Icerigger
23:08 WTF
23:04 RD
23:03 Zenster
23:00 mrp
22:58 gromgoru
22:58 Icerigger
22:56 Galactic Coordinator Elmaving4888
22:54 RD
22:53 trailing wife
22:40 JosephMendiola
22:38 Barbara Skolaut