Article

2006-06-19 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2006-06-19 15:28|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 well hell why mention it unless you give us the specifc charges for each one; great announcement timing by the way with two of our troops in their hands ... ass wipes

Posted by Legolas 2006-06-19 15:48|| 2006-06-19 15:48|| Front Page Top

#2 [*disclaimer* ima not an lawyer, plz don't shoot]

In civilian courts if you are are arrested and accused of a crime you stand before the law, da judge, the prosecution, and the defense. And if you were smart or lucky enough to accumulate a few bucks so that you could hire good council there is an approx balance of power struck between you the accused and the state/city or Feds.

by comparison, under the Military Code of Justice the balance of power between you the accused and Military Court seems to be entirely lopsided toward the accuser and favor the prosecution, because basically not only can you be forced to stand before a Military Tribunal with less evidence, you must then try and prove that you are innocent of the charges with a just a fraction of the resources available the prosecution! no?

Posted by RD 2006-06-19 16:57|| 2006-06-19 16:57|| Front Page Top

#3 Sorry RD, but I've sat on a number of courts martial and rehearings. I'd prefer a military MC than any civilian trial any day. One, the judge is independent and not subject to the command structure. The same for the defense lawyer. The defense lawyers have to had served as prosecutors before they could be defense lawyers. Two. the court martial board is made up of people who have at least a college level education and, unlike civilian courts, can actually ask questions of the witnesses. Three, any attempt to influence the courts martial board by the command structure is in of itself a violation of the UCMJ and will result not only in the invalidation of any outcome, but can result in the loss of the command billets by the abuser. Separate mechanisms exist which permits the reporting of such interference and require immediate action. Four, the rules of evidence are the same for the CM as they are for the federal system. Five, the Military Court of Appeals, has no sense of humor. Cases are indeed thrown out or reheard. The rehearing can be at the unit where the original conviction occurred or where the individual is being held for confinement which is usually Fort Leavenworth. Reread point three.

The CMs I sat on were more concern with getting to the truth. The major abuse I saw was exactly the same I've seen in civilian criminal case, in that the prosecution got a 'copped' plea and worked a deal with someone who should have been the main target of the trial and it was his lackey who took the brunt of the CM. Fortunately, in the CM, if a person is convicted [and it can be of lesser charges] the same CM board also determines punishment within parameters. Lackeys got less than if it had been the instigator.

Posted by Throlump Thromoth7510 2006-06-19 17:24|| 2006-06-19 17:24|| Front Page Top

#4 Thank You Throlump Thromoth7510, points taken.. under review! LOL

How about the "pre-trial" hearings, regarding truthfulness or sufficiency's [?] of evidence to then move foward or not to the actual trail?

Posted by RD 2006-06-19 17:36|| 2006-06-19 17:36|| Front Page Top

#5 That's it. I'm joining just so I can defend our soldiers against charges like these.

Posted by Iblis">Iblis 2006-06-19 18:56|| 2006-06-19 18:56|| Front Page Top

#6
a bit more precisely..

Throlump Thromoth7510

*By Comparison, civil courts vs. CMs*

How about "pre-trial" hearings, regarding the varacity of evidence or sufficienct weight of eveidence to bind the case over for trial?

Posted by RD 2006-06-19 19:18|| 2006-06-19 19:18|| Front Page Top

#7 Forget that RD. This is all about a senior commander calling in his JAG and covering his arss.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-06-19 19:22|| 2006-06-19 19:22|| Front Page Top

#8 How "high up" did you get, Besoeker?

Posted by Pappy 2006-06-19 19:51|| 2006-06-19 19:51|| Front Page Top

#9 Pre-trial in the military is an Article 32 investigation. Article 32 is somewhat like a grand jury proceeding. An disinterested officer is appointed to complete the Art 32. By disinterested that means not part of the subordinate unit direct chain of command. He gathers what ever criminal investigation by the CID [which is independent of the command, thanks to the first Sergeant Major of the Army] and/or the Military Police. The investigating officer will conduct interviews and take sworn statements. After compiling all appropriate material, the IO then makes a recommendation whether evidence justifies further proceedings. The report is reviewed by the servicing JAG for legal sufficiency and compliance. The commander has several options. He can ignore the recommendation, but now has an official record that can come back to bite, one way or another. He can take action, either that recommended by the IO which can vary from administrative punish to courts martial. He can mitigate the findings and take lesser action. Or in the case of courts martial, direct his JAG, who is subject to his command, to prepare action against the accused.

Further reading here and here .

Posted by Throlump Thromoth7510 2006-06-19 20:48|| 2006-06-19 20:48|| Front Page Top

#10 thanks Throlump Thromoth7510,

I've started on the 23 page pdf!

..but until I finish reading it, my non professional advice for anyone within range would be, stay out of trouble any way possible.

»:-)

Posted by RD 2006-06-19 22:30|| 2006-06-19 22:30|| Front Page Top

15:27 Besoeker
07:59 wxjames
23:56 newc
23:52 Eric Jablow
23:51 Frank G
23:49 Frank G
23:41 phil_b
23:40 Oldspook
23:00 Glains Threrese9277
22:58 zazz
22:48 Frank G
22:48 Captain America
22:44 Chort Chomoth7972
22:35 Frank G
22:31 Oldspook
22:30 RD
22:21 RWV
22:18 Chuck Simmins
22:17 RWV
22:16 Barbara Skolaut
22:13 tu3031
22:11 Chort Chomoth7972
22:02 Frank G
21:35 Valentine