Article

2006-01-16 Europe

Sweden's army slammed for Russia exercises

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Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Too much symbolism for me, I'm sure the Sweds welcome to training from experienced soliders.

Posted by Gratch Ebbutle5830 2006-01-16 00:05|| 2006-01-16 00:05|| Front Page Top

#2 *to=the

Posted by Gratch Ebbutle5830 2006-01-16 00:06|| 2006-01-16 00:06|| Front Page Top

#3 *soliders=soldiers geez..sry

Posted by Gratch Ebbutle5830 2006-01-16 00:06|| 2006-01-16 00:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Guess Robdrt's demonstrated that he's a much more sensitive soul than the rest of us.

Who are the "rest of you"? Is appeasing Russia really that much better you think, than appeasing Iran?

I'm not sure he's accomplished anything else.

No, indeed not. As long as western government are willing to ally themselves with the devil, honorable individuals that desire to preserve their nations' souls won't accomplish much more than merely preserving their own.

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:06|| 2006-01-16 01:06|| Front Page Top

#5 Is this a hint that Sweden has finally decided to take sides, on anything?

Posted by Rafael 2006-01-16 01:06|| 2006-01-16 01:06|| Front Page Top

#6 Aris, do you ever actually contribute anything, or do you just drop by to play 'Resident Scold'?

Posted by Pappy 2006-01-16 01:08|| 2006-01-16 01:08|| Front Page Top

Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the sinktrap. Further violations may result in banning.

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:15|| 2006-01-16 01:15|| Front Page Top

#8 Rephrase that to "My contributions will contain nothing but moral content" and you'd be accurate.

That concludes our discourse - permanently. Have a nice life, Aris.

Posted by Pappy 2006-01-16 01:19|| 2006-01-16 01:19|| Front Page Top

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:21|| 2006-01-16 01:21|| Front Page Top

#10 The thing that bugs me is how it's leftists that are constantly being accused of being "moral relativists", when it's in fact the conservatives here that I've seen constantly, CONSTANTLY scoff at the idea of morality. Mocking it as "displaying more sensitive souls" or "scolding" or whatever.

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:34|| 2006-01-16 01:34|| Front Page Top

#11 Met a few ex-(soldiers and KGB) as co-workers after the USSR fell. They were very good engineers and scientists with a keen sense of internal corporate politics. When they moved on the rest of us should have too!

Posted by 3dc 2006-01-16 02:16|| 2006-01-16 02:16|| Front Page Top

#12 As long as western government are willing to ally themselves with the devil, honorable individuals that desire to preserve their nations' souls won't accomplish much more than merely preserving their own.

I read it, then I read it again and still don't understand. Is this the literal devil, or a metaphor for Russia? I thought the US was the devil. And are the 'honorable individuals' jouranalists or Chechin? or Swedes?

Or is Robdirt the devil for being a money laundering Swede?

Or is this one of those 'everyman' things that sound pretty but are dibertly so vague as to be unactionable?

Posted by Skidmark 2006-01-16 04:14|| 2006-01-16 04:14|| Front Page Top

#13 I read it, then I read it again and still don't understand. Is this the literal devil, or a metaphor for Russia?

For Russia, for China, for Iran, for Nazi Germany. In this context it clearly means Putin's Russia.

I thought the US was the devil

Why did you think that?

And are the 'honorable individuals' jouranalists or Chechin? or Swedes?

Generally they happen to be, you know *individuals*, mocked in Rantburg for trying to make their nations behave honorably.

Or is this one of those 'everyman' things that sound pretty but are dibertly so vague as to be unactionable

I'd think that Rantburg would not mind a rant against appeasement, but clearly appeasement is only bad against the tyrannical imperialist nations America *currently* opposes, it's not at all bad against the tyrannical imperialist nations America doesn't currently have a problem with.

And it's quite "actionable" btw: When people try to make their nation behave honorably -- don't mock them! See how easy that was?

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 05:40|| 2006-01-16 05:40|| Front Page Top

#14 it's leftists that are constantly being accused of being "moral relativists"

I don't know where you get that idea from, Aris. Nothing drives me nuts more than the Left's moralizing and their belief that all that is required is to espouse the morally 'correct' position. Absolving them from having to deal with complexities and ambiguities of the real world and having to achieve beneficial outcomes and avoid harmful outcomes in that real world.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-01-16 06:00|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-01-16 06:00|| Front Page Top

#15 Play nice Ivan and only attack the Swedish army between the operating hours of 9-5 (M-F).

Posted by ed 2006-01-16 06:46|| 2006-01-16 06:46|| Front Page Top

#16 Well, you never know when those damn Finns are hitting the infidels in Europe.

Anyway, lumping Putin in with Iran is way over the top, Aris. Unless you know something we don't, I doubt that he dreams of wiping Israel off of the map, or nuking the infidels in Europe. He leaves a lot to be desired, but he's not crazy as a sh*thouse rat.

(If any sh*thouse rats are reading this, sorry for the insult.)

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-01-16 08:28|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ] 2006-01-16 08:28|| Front Page Top

#17 Anyway, lumping Putin in with Iran is way over the top, Aris. Unless you know something we don't, I doubt that he dreams of wiping Israel off of the map, or nuking the infidels in Europe.

He's got troops that have divided up and created dictatorships within the sovereign territories of *two* nations, namely Georgia (the dictatorships of Abkhazia and South Ossetia) and Moldova (the dictatorship of Transnistria).

He's supporting all the dictatorships in Central Asia (that's five of them, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan) plus Belarus in Eastern Europ, doing the utmost to help them all stifle democratic dissent therein.

He's massacred Chechnya.

He's had joint exercises with China which (judging from the accompanying rhetorics) were directed against Taiwan.

He's supported Venezuela, which has become the primary flagship of fascism in Latin America; he has supported Syria; and perhaps you are forgetting about it but Russia has recently been a primary supporter of Iran as well.

So Russia has not threatened *Israel* -- directly that is. What of it? It has not only directly dominated and intimated its nearby nations, it has also given a supporting hand to almost every fascism on the globe.

No, I don't think I'm going over the top at all, when I'm lumping Russia in with Iran. What Russia's fascism lacks in *flashiness*, it more than makes up with in breadth of scope.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 08:45|| 2006-01-16 08:45|| Front Page Top

#18 The problem with lumps is that they fail to make useful distinctions - ones we can work with to improve matters.

I don't trust Putin farther than I can spit, but he's sane and very calculating. He's still KGB to his marrow I think, but he's no messianic believer that the apocalypse will bring glory and restore communist hegemony. He expects to work, negotiate and scheme for it.

What bothers me about these exercises is the clear message that Sweden disdains working with western Europe in dealing with their simmering muslim immigrant crisis. Set aside theoretical issues of moral superiority and look at it geopolitically - the idea that the Swedes are so stuck in their rejection of other western countries that they are embracing Putin does not strike me as a good sign.

That said, the reality is that a lot of sex slaves and drugs are coming into Europe through Russia and Scandanavia. If I have a chance I'll go dig up my links to stories from the last year or two on this. At a tactical level, cooperation to shut that down would be a Good Thing, especially to whatever degree the drug trade monies might be funding Islamacist groups rather than the eastern European mafias.

But somehow I suspect that Sweden is signalling it will align with Russia against US influence in eastern Europe. And if that's the case this is one more example of Western 'elites' slitting their own - and our own - throats as a result of unwarranted attitudes of moral superiority.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 08:57|| 2006-01-16 08:57|| Front Page Top

#19 Read the post again, Aris. I did not say Putin was an angel. I knew about all those things you mentioned, and more.

Putin is a bastard. You didn't rise up in the former KGB without being one. That is not in dispute. I know this offends your sense of moral purity, but we cannot ignore him, we cannot stop talking to him, we cannot get in his face every damn time he pulls something slimy.

As tragic as it is for the people he is pushing around (some of whom are my relatives, both by blood and by marriage, thank you very much), America is a touch busy right now and can't drop everything to deal with their problems. Maybe the Greek Army could come to the rescue, since they are kind of sitting around right now....

What I was driving at is that Putin is not crazy enough to start Armageddon. He does not dream of the glory to befall him should he nuke other nations, he does not dream of pushing other countries into the sea, he does not think he is carrying out the divine will of Allah/God/Ahura Mazda/insert-favorite-divinity-here.

Iran *is*. Iran will do that if given half a chance, which the EU seems more than willing to give them. Considering the EU's record in dealing with Bosnia, forgive me for not being at all hopeful that talking to the Mad Mullahs of Tehran is going to accomplish a damn thing.

The only difference is that unless you guys, the EU, get your act together, you're going to face something worse than refugees streaming across your borders. It won't be coming from Russia, either.

To use a term they made famous in Tehran, I think you have your "Great Satans" mixed up.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-01-16 09:13|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ] 2006-01-16 09:13|| Front Page Top

#20 Good points, lotp, but I was thinking that they were maybe trying to ensure that Russia doesn't cut off the oil lines or mess with their interests in the Baltic Sea.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-01-16 09:23|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ] 2006-01-16 09:23|| Front Page Top

#21 He's got troops that have divided up and created dictatorships within the sovereign territories of *two* nations, namely Georgia (the dictatorships of Abkhazia and South Ossetia) and Moldova (the dictatorship of Transnistria).

Well, then, do something about him.

Fer crissake, it's like the EU is a bag of defenseless kittens, dependent on the US for keeping the wolves away.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2006-01-16 09:43|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-01-16 09:43|| Front Page Top

#22 Well, you never know when those damn Finns are hitting the infidels in Europe.

Anyway, lumping Putin in with Iran is way over the top, Aris. Unless you know something we don't, I doubt that he dreams of wiping Israel off of the map, or nuking the infidels in Europe. He leaves a lot to be desired, but he's not crazy as a sh*thouse rat.

(If any sh*thouse rats are reading this, sorry for the insult.)

He may not be a "wild and craazy guy" the way the Mullahs are, but he's their primary enabler among the nations that have technology.

Whether he does it because he's "wild and craaazy" or not _won't matter anymore_ once we wake up and find out that another World War One has broken out, this time with nuclear weapons.

All the Chechnyan conflict is doing is letting Russia pretend it's "fighting terrorism" while it's selling Iran its Junior Science Atomic Bomb Kit.

Finally, I think y'all are missing an important insight: you don't need to be a devout Moslem (of whatever sect), nor a devout Christian, nor even a devout Marxist, to be a dangerous fanatic. It could be that Putin is one of those guys who doesn't need any scriptures.

Posted by Phil 2006-01-16 09:48|| 2006-01-16 09:48|| Front Page Top

#23 Yet more Pecksniffian hypocrisy from our resident Tartuffe.

Let me clue you in, Uriah, the goal of "morality" in the public sphere is to identify and deal with real evil, not to pompously inflate Aris Katsaris's dubiously derived self-worth. "Damned if you do and damned if you don't" fails any fair moral test.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2006-01-16 09:54|| saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]">[saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2006-01-16 09:54|| Front Page Top

#24 "The thing that bugs me is how it's leftists that are constantly being accused of being 'moral relativists'"

Yeah, last century they stood by and cheered while 100+ million people were "relativized" into early graves, you morally degenerate punk.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2006-01-16 09:56|| saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]">[saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2006-01-16 09:56|| Front Page Top

#25 Phil,

"All the Chechnyan conflict is doing is letting Russia pretend it's "fighting terrorism" while it's selling Iran its Junior Science Atomic Bomb Kit."

Precisely, but Aris can't make that legitimate criticism of Putin, because he'd have to point 4 fingers back at the EU, which has been doing the same thing for years.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2006-01-16 10:00|| saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]">[saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2006-01-16 10:00|| Front Page Top

#26 I thought Aris said earlier he already despised the Greek government for being part of the general leftist/fascist axis he thought was forming in that part of the world.

(I thought I'd mention that because I am under the impression that Aris won't be posting here anymore, and may not be able to say that himself).

I don't really have time to play today, though. I have an enourmous work backlog.

Posted by Phil 2006-01-16 10:07|| 2006-01-16 10:07|| Front Page Top

#27 I thought Aris said earlier he already despised the Greek government for being part of the general leftist/fascist axis he thought was forming in that part of the world.

And yet he finds time to insult Americans for not being sufficiently opposed to Putin:

I'd think that Rantburg would not mind a rant against appeasement, but clearly appeasement is only bad against the tyrannical imperialist nations America *currently* opposes, it's not at all bad against the tyrannical imperialist nations America doesn't currently have a problem with.

Mote, beam, and all that.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2006-01-16 10:18|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-01-16 10:18|| Front Page Top

#28 Phil, I don't take Putin as being a fanatic. You have to be nuts to be a fanatic, and he's sane. He could be a sociopath, and is definitely greedy. What if....

Maybe, just maybe, Russia's playing a potentially dangerous game with Iran? As in, they are taking the mullah's money (hard currency only....none of that Iranian toilet paper they call cash) to build a nuclear facility. They tell them, as an aside, yeah, you can use this to make a bomb, and offer to sell them plans, equipment, etc. They even throw in a free trip to Stalin World. Take the kiddies for a vacation, why not?

However....they leave out a couple of tiny details that keep the stupid thing from working once it's assembled, or change a few specs. The Iranians build 'em big & pretty, and completely unable to hit a damn thing unless they fall over.

Just to be sure, they pass on the locations to, say, the US or Israel....in case there's a Farsi rocket scientist who can solve the bugs.

Think about it....Russia's right on their border. They would not have much time to react to incoming missiles from that direction. There's no telling when the Iranians might get torked off at them. They know that.

Now, granted, this is all from the Central Florida Strategic Think Tank using patented scientific algorithms (in other words, I'm in my living room, pulling it outta my a$$ and typing it here). It has a NY Times level of possibly being true (approximately 5%, give or take 4.9%).

But it would definitely appeal to Putin's greed, plus the underhanded backstabbing would bring back memories of the good ol' days.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-01-16 10:27|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ] 2006-01-16 10:27|| Front Page Top

#29 "But it would definitely appeal to Putin's greed, plus the underhanded backstabbing would bring back memories of the good ol' days."

Now THAT makes the idea plausible, lol.

Posted by .com 2006-01-16 10:31|| 2006-01-16 10:31|| Front Page Top

#30 Wow, Aris "redacted", and so early in the day too. Meanwhile, back at the thread...

lotp: "But somehow I suspect that Sweden is signalling it will align with Russia against US influence in eastern Europe."
I hope you're reading too much into this. I'd prefer to think they're just being neighborly to pick up some training and help keep the bear relatively friendly.

Aris: "Is appeasing Russia really that much better you think, than appeasing Iran?"
We're talking about some joint exercises here, not making world-threatening Sweden a ballistic missile and nuclear warhead powerhouse.

Posted by Darrell 2006-01-16 10:33|| 2006-01-16 10:33|| Front Page Top

#31 I hope you're reading too much into this. I'd prefer to think they're just being neighborly to pick up some training and help keep the bear relatively friendly.

Me too.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 10:46|| 2006-01-16 10:46|| Front Page Top

#32 We're talking about some joint exercises here, not making world-threatening Sweden a ballistic missile and nuclear warhead powerhouse.

But we are taliking about joint exercises with a country that is making world-threatening Iran a ballistic missile and nuclear warhead player.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 10:54|| 2006-01-16 10:54|| Front Page Top

#33 Yada, yada, yada or should that be Yalta.

St. Franklin of the Roosevelt who brought us the pyramid scheme of Social Security and a host of other socialist patriarchal government programs, was a real bud with the second greatest butcher of the 20th Century, Stalin [top honors go to Mao]. Moral relativism of course. I'm sure in the marxist universe Franklin is a reactionary conservative, but to most of us, he's occupies a position on the left side of the spectrum.

Posted by Thruling Thimble1239 2006-01-16 10:55|| 2006-01-16 10:55|| Front Page Top

#34 And if that's the case this is one more example of Western 'elites' slitting their own - and our own - throats as a result of unwarranted attitudes of moral superiority.

You know, a Swede can say exactly the same thing about US alignment with Pakistan, Saudi Arabia et. al. You are also aware that NATO has an office in Moscow, right? In fact, they have an an entire staff there devoted to passing NATO propaganda to the Russians.

Rantburg so far has been too harsh on Russia, in some respects. You have your own problems with US firms selling tech to the Chinese, and you blame the Russians for doing the same thing. You seem to neglect that 95% of the world hates the US. Demanding that Russia not sell its wares to those that can cause problems for the US, is unreasonable, from the Russian point of view.

Regarding Putin, I don't think Russia is ready politically and economically for anyone else other than Putin. Disenchantment with capitalism runs high in Russia, and it is always one step away from moving backward to a full-blown dictatorship or electing some freak like Zhirinovsky. If things do not improve for the people in Russia, there will be some other revolution in the future, and Putin will seem like an angel by comparison.

Posted by Rafael 2006-01-16 11:21|| 2006-01-16 11:21|| Front Page Top

#35 So, Nimble, what do you suggest? Building an iron curtain around Russia so they can't engage with the West?

Posted by Darrell 2006-01-16 11:22|| 2006-01-16 11:22|| Front Page Top

#36 Engagement and joint military training exercises are two different things. Are you proposing that we treat them like the UK? To me it's a matter of degree and timing. The Russians have been especially unhelpful with Iran's strategic arsenal. There should be a price.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 11:27|| 2006-01-16 11:27|| Front Page Top

#37 There may be a price to pay, Nimble, but don't expect the Swedes to ring it up on the register.

Look, the Swedes are pretty much irrelevant. They have a 9 to 5, 5 days a week military. It may be of good quality but no one expects them to do anything other than defend their own land. I'm not sure they could take down the Esquimaux at this point. It makes sense, from their point of view, for them to have some engagement with the Rooskies, because that's their biggest threat just over the horizon.

Iran? Nukes? Even if the Swedes saw that as a problem and not as a CIA-inspired conspiracy, they can't do anything practical about it. They'll let the U.S. carry the water on that one, thankyouverymuch, and carp piously from the sidelines.

For all their pontificating, the Swedes have a practical foreign policy -- don't piss off anyone bigger than them, except the US (because we won't hurt them).

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-01-16 14:11|| 2006-01-16 14:11|| Front Page Top

#38 I hate to inject this at this point but isn't Sweden supposed to be a "nutral" country? Why are they training with the Rus?

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-16 16:18|| 2006-01-16 16:18|| Front Page Top

#39 You're thinking of Switzerland.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2006-01-16 16:22|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-01-16 16:22|| Front Page Top

#40 I think too many people are reading too much into this. I'd be much more willing to believe that Sweden is looking to train with someone who has experience in dealing with islamonazi terrorism, instead of a bunch of appeaseniks who are afraid of offending even the sickest of the sewer rats. Sweden has also been relatively neutral for a hundred years or so, and has managed to keep from being involved in any of Europe's many wars during that period. While I don't believe they're in Russia's orbit, I do believe they're trying to get some real, hands-on experience, even second-hand. Getting it from the United States or Britain, two nations heavily involved in both Iraq and Afghanistan, would look too much like taking sides. The next best thing - in fact the only option left - is Russia.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2006-01-16 17:37|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2006-01-16 17:37|| Front Page Top

#41 If they want to learn how to deal with islamofascists poorly, then it's a good idea.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 17:46|| 2006-01-16 17:46|| Front Page Top

#42 Sweden is neutral like Switzerland, but has reduced its "army" to no more than 5,000 soldiers able to "fight." The exercises with Russian troops invited are pure folly, but hey reducing the army to 5,000 was already folly.

I served there a long time ago, when the enemy was openly described as Russians. We even had people learning to speak Russian and to torture Russian-speaking prisoners.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-01-16 18:02|| http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]">[http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2006-01-16 18:02|| Front Page Top

#43 Thanks Kalle. I thought I remembered my history. Sweden was NOT invaded by Hitler. Well you know the Welfare state eats all the money for the Army, Navy and Airforce that kept Hitler at bay. Sweden makes good weapons. My Swedish Mauser rifle is 20 times the overall quality of my German one.

Training with the Rus is folly.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-16 19:19|| 2006-01-16 19:19|| Front Page Top

#44 Thanks Kalle. It may be folly for the Swedes, but I think they're looking at a way to engage the Russians. Realistically, what other external enemy d they have?

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-01-16 19:29|| 2006-01-16 19:29|| Front Page Top

#45 According to the Swedish State TV News program during the 80s, there was no greater enemy than American Imperialism. One would have thought that the Swedish Army would accordingly be ready to defend the country against NATO, or at a minimum against the USA. However it was standard, unofficial strategic planning to count on NATO support against a Russian attack. (Including compatibility of ammo.)

Unofficial military talk was also that the regularly visiting Russian submarines could have been sunk in Swedish waters, but that the social-democrat government ordered the military NOT to do so. I got that from several high-ranking Swedish officers, separately.

Imagine being in the Marines and Navy, and your government orders you to fake inability to catch the enemy during its incursions. Maddening.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-01-16 20:42|| http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]">[http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2006-01-16 20:42|| Front Page Top

#46 yes, Sweden's military is quite small and Kalle, I remember the 80s as well. It's why this caught my attention - that period, plus their serious problems in immigrant-dense places like Malmo, which Swedish officialdom is doing their darndest to avoid noticing.

Not trying to see shadows where there are none and perhaps the explanation that training with the US or UK is too ... provocative ... holds water. OTOH that in and of itself suggests it will be a long time, if ever, before Sweden would ever be an ally or even a neutral in dealing with aggressive Islamacists -- my main concern here.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 20:56|| 2006-01-16 20:56|| Front Page Top

#47 Well, I think Aris has made some good points regarding Russia, as well as troubling inconsistencies across political landscapes on either side--liberal/conservative--and the moral relativism issues they raise. It's worth thinking about, in any case.

" . . . the idea that the Swedes are so stuck in their rejection of other western countries that they are embracing Putin does not strike me as a good sign." Embracing Putin is never a good sign, except "better the devil you know . . . " This contact also might be due more to relations between the two countries that go back centuries.

"That said, the reality is that a lot of sex slaves and drugs are coming into Europe through Russia and Scandanavia. If I have a chance I'll go dig up my links to stories from the last year or two on this." Please post--would be helpful.

Posted by ex-lib 2006-01-16 23:59|| 2006-01-16 23:59|| Front Page Top

#48 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:15|| 2006-01-16 01:15|| Front Page Top

#49 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2006-01-16 01:21|| 2006-01-16 01:21|| Front Page Top

01:21 Aris Katsaris
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00:06 JosephMendiola
23:59 ex-lib
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23:25 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
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23:12 Shereting Hupenter8025
23:03 Rory B. Bellows
23:01 CaziFarkus
22:56 Frank G
22:51 Frank G
22:44 ed
22:30 Tibor
22:24 C-Low
22:17 trailing wife
22:16 .com
22:15 2b
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22:15 Jarong Chush4043
22:13 trailing wife
22:00 trailing wife