Article

2005-11-11 Southeast Asia

Indonesia raises ante in the war on terrorism

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Posted by cingold 2005-11-11 01:36|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 cool.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-11 01:46|| 2005-11-11 01:46|| Front Page Top

#2 Article: The country has caught and sent to jail many terrorists -- some are even waiting on death row now -- for their parts in the bomb attacks going back to 2003. One of these is JI spiritual leader Abu Bakar Ba'asyir, who is serving time for his part in the first Bali bombing. This is a lot more than the United States, Australia and other countries have done in their own campaigns against terror. Prosecutions are rare or even non-existent in some of these countries.

This is false. The West has aggressively gone after the people responsible for terrorist attacks and jailed the people responsible for inciting or financing attacks. Most of the people jailed in the US for terror-related activities have never carried out a terrorist attack. The vast majority were not even close to operational - some were jailed for terrorist conspiracies - i.e. merely talking about carrying out terror attacks - conversations that were caught on tape, presumably with the help of cooperating Muslim informants. Many were arrested and convicted via sting operations where FBI agents lured unwitting Muslims into helping people whom they thought were terrorists. Indonesia has a whole different problem - it is having problems catching and convicting people who were responsible for hundreds of actual deaths.* Even Spain (!) has caught everyone involved in the train bombings. And when Spanish security forces surround terrorists, they don't get away. I wish I could say the same for Indonesia.

* We don't coddle terrorists. McVeigh is dead. The Pakistani terrorist who shot several people at CIA headquarters is dead - and we had to reach all the way to Pakistan to get him. The blind sheikh who incited the 1993 WTC bombing is serving a life term. And only a handful of people were killed in that bombing. In contrast, Abu Bakar Ba'asyir, who incited the Bali bombing, will serve less than 10 years for an attack that killed 200 people.

The people at the Jakarta Post are either ignorant of anti-terror efforts in the West or a bunch of compulsive liars. In the West, we generally arrest these people before attacks occur or land on their heads after they occur. In Indonesia, the government has problems arresting, convicting and imprisoning terrorists *after* attacks occur, let alone before they occur. This is why Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew views Indonesia as a terror haven - he's no dummy - he calls it as he sees it.

Posted by Elmenter Snineque1852 2005-11-11 02:31|| 2005-11-11 02:31|| Front Page Top

#3 Indonesia, Morroco, Jordan, Iraq, all demonstrating against Al Qaeda.

The only ones world-wide NOT demonstrating against Al Qaeda are America's liberals.

Posted by RG 2005-11-11 02:41|| 2005-11-11 02:41|| Front Page Top

#4 Elmenter Snineque1852 wrote: Lee Kuan Yew . . . he's no dummy -- Let's see, that's the guy who outlawed bubblegum in his city-state country, right?

Elmenter Snineque1852 wrote: In Indonesia, the government has problems arresting, convicting and imprisoning terrorists *after* attacks occur, let alone before they occur. Hmmmm . . . I disagree. Iâm more than willing to admit Indonesia has its fair share of problems, but they havenât been the slackers you portray in the WOT. And, they do have reason to wonder about us:

A suspected top al-Qaeda operative who escaped from a U.S.-run detention facility in Afghanistan poses a serious threat to Southeast Asian security, anti-terror officials said Wednesday. Some said Washington failed to tell them Omar al-Farouq was free. Al-Farouq, born in Kuwait to Iraqi parents, was considered one of Osama bin Laden's top lieutenants in Southeast Asia until Indonesian authorities captured him in 2002 and turned him over to the United States.

See Link. Handing Farouq over to the U.S. was not a walk in the park for Indonesia, but it was done because it was the right thing to do.

The islamofascists are angry at the Indonesian government precisely because the Indonesian government has acted to put an end to islamofascism and terrorism. At least four people have been sentenced to death by Indonesian courts for terrorist activities, and over thirty convicted and given prison terms [in Indonesian prisons] of three years to life. See, e.g., Jakarta issues death sentence for embassy bombings. Hundreds of others have been arrested and questioned [by Indonesian methods].

Has any Western country sentenced a islamofascist terrorist to death (apart from the blessed summary dispatch of military action)? Having the Courts convict and sentence to death is a litmus test for a societyâs morals.

Posted by cingold 2005-11-11 03:03|| 2005-11-11 03:03|| Front Page Top

#5 His death will indeed be the first major breakthrough for Detachment 88, a specially trained antiterrorist force set up by the National Police in the wake of the first devastating bomb attacks in Bali on Oct. 12, 2002.

cingold, while I appreciate such a detailed report, the above passage remains a glaring reminder of just how (I'm going to be really polite here and say) inept Indonesia's Detachment 88 has been.

It is now November 2005 and THREE SOLID YEARS have passed before we finally have a modicum of resolution with respect to apprehending any masterminds of the original Bali atrocity. I am still unable to regard Bashir's detention as much more than a conciliatory gesture and therefore look to other more concrete examples, of which Husin's demise is a sorrowfully singular demonstration.

If, as you say, it is "the Indonesian people, who hate this ugly terrorism" why is Bashir, having openly advocated (from jail, no less) use of nuclear attacks against the West still being treated with kid gloves? One would think the Indonesian people's adoration of this accomplice to atrocity would have ceased long ago. Instead, Indonesiaâs government tiptoes in the presence of this convicted terrorist. Attempts to commute any portion of Bashirâs sentence (amidst furious international protest) remain a sterling example of such soft-pedaling.

You claim Bashir is an anomaly. I maintain he is not. In support of my stance I point towards Indonesiaâs refusal to ban the terrorist group Jamaah Islamiyah. What is their pretense for this? Outwardly, officials claim that JI does not exist so that there can be no banning of a nonexistent entity. All such mental gymnastics aside, a more likely explanation is the governmentâs unwillingness to ban an organization whose name translates to âIslamic Communityâ (or some approximation thereof). Add to this how (the âSmiling Bomberâ) Amrozi was given so many unrestrained opportunities to exhibit his gloating satisfaction over complicity in the Bali atrocity.

These numerous and glaring examples point towards an Indonesia that is not quite so mantled in any garb of righteousness. Instead, I continue to find a rather cynical and lopsided accounting for how this Southeast Asian nation is going about the interdiction and prosecution of terrorist atrocities.

OFF TOPIC SIDEBAR: cingold, if you wish to press your continuing accusations of me having a subversive agenda, please restate them now. Recently, you quite honorably ascribed a degree of quality to some of my contributions here. I will happily rebut whatever falsehoods you continue to accuse me of. First and foremost are your repeated accusations that I maintain a âkill them allâ attitude towards Muslims. I welcome you to give proof and reconcile this particular attribution with how frequently I have been belabored at Rantburg for my own defense of (what seems to be, increasingly mythical) moderate Muslims.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-11 04:01|| 2005-11-11 04:01|| Front Page Top

#6 Prior to 2002, TNI (the military) were responsible for anti-terrorism operations. There were strong suspicions TNI was actively promoting terrorism in places like East Timor and the Moluccas. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a hand in JI.

I tend to agree with cingold, the glass is half full and still filling.

Posted by phil_b 2005-11-11 05:16|| 2005-11-11 05:16|| Front Page Top

#7 cingold: Has any Western country sentenced a islamofascist terrorist to death (apart from the blessed summary dispatch of military action)?

The Pakistani terrorist who shot several CIA staff at Langley was sentenced to death. He was injected not too long ago. The planners of 9/11 are being held incommunicado until they are all accounted for, upon which we will undoubtedly dust off the electric chair. Remember - as of this point, these people have life terms - we are holding them without trial, outside of the bounds of constitution protections. Indonesia has problems merely incarcerating them, let alone convicting them. As to the escape from American custody, note that we are holding tens of thousands of jihadis and some of them get away every so often. Indonesia can't even apprehend them, so there aren't very many to escape from custody. And the operations they mount to capture them on Indonesian soil are a joke, with the occasional exception trumpeted at the Jakarta Post.

Posted by Elmenter Snineque1852 2005-11-11 07:52|| 2005-11-11 07:52|| Front Page Top

#8 Iâll be as succinct as I can: While Iâll readily agree it is more brackish than Iâd hope to see, Iâm singularly unimpressed with those who would piss in the pond we must all drink from.

Posted by cingold 2005-11-11 08:25|| 2005-11-11 08:25|| Front Page Top

#9 Like Cg.

Posted by Shipman 2005-11-11 09:50|| 2005-11-11 09:50|| Front Page Top

#10 Indonesia has the largest muslim population of any country in the world IIRC. It has an economy that hasn't even begun to emerge fully out of mere natural resources extraction, it has hundreds of languages spoken, spans islands ... in other words, it's a challenging place to rule effectively.

While the water may indeed be brackish there, Cingold makes an important point. For the Indonesian government to get Western help and to take open action against the jihadis to ANY degree takes guts. I'd like more from every country in the world - ours included - but their achievement should be recognized.

Posted by lotp 2005-11-11 13:12|| 2005-11-11 13:12|| Front Page Top

#11 cingold, I don't see anyone ~~pissing in the punchbowl~~ calling for deposing Indonesia's government. What I do see is some valid criticisms of a country that has been cause for serious concern. I also see some valid points being made with respect to America's own track record and any criticism thereof. So far, we're still doing all the heavy lifting.

When Indonesia finally silences a treacherous maggot like Bashir, I'll start modifying my opinion. Yes, they do seem to be making some laudable progress, even if it is only in rehabilitating their own corrupted internal security forces. And, yes, you can be sure that a steady diet of brackish fare lends to more than a little ~~dyspepsia~~ cynicism.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-11 14:06|| 2005-11-11 14:06|| Front Page Top

#12 What ticks me off is that you have foreigners like Azahari and Noordin, who can't operate in Malaysia among their own people (because the Malaysian government has been vigilant and is arresting and putting these people in jail indefinitely a la Guantanomo), operating in Indonesia for years - where they stick out like sore thumbs (because as soon as they open their mouths it is immediately clear that they are Malaysian). How is this possible if the Indonesian govt has been dealing with the problem?

Posted by Elmenter Snineque1852 2005-11-11 14:21|| 2005-11-11 14:21|| Front Page Top

#13 Gawd, Zenster, I could spend my entire afternoon responding to your pseudo-intellectual tirades, which are based on a lack of information and glaring ethnocentrism, but I'll simply reitereate lopt, (unless I get a break in my schedule):

" . . . Cingold makes an important point. For the Indonesian government to get Western help and to take open action against the jihadis to ANY degree takes guts. I'd like more from every country in the world - ours included - but their achievement should be recognized."

Zen, your armchair bitch sessions are getting really boring. It's like you vascilate between saying important things (like yesterday) and drivel (today). I believe that's because you have a passion-driven, secondary agenda to promote your own self-interest and that of your special interest group. Is your aim to attempt to enflame conservatives into your own black and white thinking? If so, you are aiding the terrorists because you seem to refuse to realize that this is a complicated issue, and that building alliances is the only key to success in defeating global terrorism.

Posted by ex-lib 2005-11-11 15:48|| 2005-11-11 15:48|| Front Page Top

#14 And the same goes for you, Elm. You said:

"And the operations they mount to capture them on Indonesian soil are a joke . . . "

I will reiterate lopt again:

"Indonesia has the largest muslim population of any country in the world . . . It has an economy that hasn't even begun to emerge fully out of mere "natural resources extraction, it has hundreds of languages spoken, spans islands ... in other words, it's a challenging place to rule effectively.

In other words, we're not looking at a fully developed modern nation with a complete infrastructure as in the US or the UK. So get real and give them time. In the meanwhile BUILD friendly alliances and STOP insulting and criticizing those countries that are trying.

As RG said:

"Indonesia, Morroco, Jordan, Iraq, all demonstrating against Al Qaeda. The only ones world-wide NOT demonstrating against Al Qaeda are America's liberals."

It seems like the only ones Zen and Elm are "demonstrating" against are third world governments attempting to reinvent their entire societies in the direction of anti-terrorism.

Posted by ex-lib 2005-11-11 15:58|| 2005-11-11 15:58|| Front Page Top

#15 Elmenter Snineque1852 wrote of how pro Western the Malaysian government has been and that Malaysians are easily identifiable in Indonesia, because "as soon as they open their mouths it is immediately clear that they are Malaysian."

Before you jump on the Malaysia is so cool bandwagon, you might want to read something like âShould America blame itself for the Muslim world's hatred?â which addresses some serious problems in Malaysia regarding attitudes toward the West, or âThailand: Blood on the borderâ which raises some serious questions about Malaysiaâs level of commitment to recognizing that terrorist activities need to be eliminated.

Dan, tentang kalau bisa tahu orang orang dari Malaysia kapan dia didalam Indonesia, kapan saya anak kecil aku tinggal didalam Medan, Sumatra, dan bisa berbicara bahasa Indonesia, dan ada waktu untuk berbicara dengan orang Malaysia kapan aku pergi ke Singapura dan Pinang, dan itu tidak betul. Itulah lebih seperti mengaku perbedaan di antara Manitoban Canadian dan North Dakotan American daripada kamu mungkin berpikir. Di hampir setiap hal, mereka kedua berbicara dalam bahasa Indonesia.

Which is to say:
And, about knowing if a person is from Malaysia when in Indonesia, when I was a kid I lived in Medan, Sumatra, and speak Indonesian, and spoke with Malaysians while I was in Singapore and Penang, and thatâs not true. It is a lot more like recognizing the difference between a Manitoban Canadian and a North Dakotan American than you might think. In almost every respect, they both speak Indonesian.

Posted by cingold 2005-11-11 18:31|| 2005-11-11 18:31|| Front Page Top

#16 I believe that's because you have a passion-driven, secondary agenda to promote your own self-interest and that of your special interest group. Is your aim to attempt to enflame conservatives into your own black and white thinking?

My "own special interest group"? That's hilarious. Please feel free to define whatever the heck that might be.

My aim is to obtain a rational and balanced worldview. Enflaming people is the work of trolls and something that I particularly eschew, regardless of your own baseless accusations.

If so, you are aiding the terrorists because you seem to refuse to realize that this is a complicated issue, and that building alliances is the only key to success in defeating global terrorism.

I want America's alliances built with functional and dedicated opponents to terrorism. We have already seen the worth of dallying with wretches like Marcos or the disgusting House of Saud. Yes, fighting terrorism is a "complicated issue".

Making a significant dent in terrorist activities may require wholly new strategies. This is why I have suggested thorough examination of such unconventional approaches as decapping foreign governments (like Iran), holding hostage Mecca and Medina as a deterrent, and the use of hunter / killer teams to begin decimating the ranks of Islamist imams and operatives.

I do not claim my suggestions to be the best, merely ones that may well require consideration due to the asymmetric nature of the global war on terrorism. America simply does not have sufficient boots-on-the-ground to address existing terrorist regimes on all fronts.

We must now consider swifter solutions. Time is most definitely NOT on our side. Thank goodness cohesive military doctrine and advanced technology ARE. One central lesson we must garner from Iraq is that, much like alliance building, nation building is an exceptionally time consuming occupation (so to speak).

While bit players like Jordan and Indonesia have found themselves on the receiving end of terrorism's unwanted attentions, it is America that stands the most to lose and it is our nation that is centered most firmly in the crosshairs of terrorist planners.

If making a habit of lobbing cruise missiles into the legislative sessions of terror sponsoring countries is what it takes to prevent another 9-11 atrocity, then launch them now. France has provided our world a very instructive lesson with respect to ignoring the threat of Islamist agendas.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-11 21:40|| 2005-11-11 21:40|| Front Page Top

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