Article

2005-10-02 Europe

VDH : Todayâs Euro-USA Split Will Persist

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Posted by anonymous5089 2005-10-02 08:04|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Another excellent missive from VDH.

My main concerns are with unassimilated and growing immigrant populations (all the while playing the 'tolerance' card), the almost complete disregard of the populace by the elites (witness the response to the constitution fiasco - business as usual) and the sometimes palpable anti-Americanism feeling from the MSM.

And of course, lets not forget where the two most destructive wars in history were started from...

So I'm all in favour of the US following through with his 5 points - there are a lot of people in Europe that *don't* think the Franco-German "ever closer union" is appropriate, but when you're drowned out by the MSM, or political parties that are anti-EU or nationalist are declared illegal, then it makes it rather hard to get your viewpoint across.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-10-02 09:33|| 2005-10-02 09:33|| Front Page Top

#2 I see a second division, and a recombination, in Britain. I believe much of the US-EU acrimony is driven by a deep-seated philosophical divide, best expressed in their different concept of government.

Continental Europe is cursed with both Napoleonic and Roman Law as their basis for government. The US and Britain, however, have their roots in Common Law. For this reason, Britain will eventually, and perhaps unavoidably, shy away from "foreign masters" in Brussels depriving them of "the rights of free-born Englishmen".

And the divide is deep. In essence, the Continental model is that "the government is the state, whose servants are the people", but the Common Law model is that "the people are the state, whose servants are the government."

This is expressed throughout both systems. On the Continent, "activities that are not specifically permitted by the government are unlawful"; unlike the American and British concept that "activities not specifically prohibited by the government are legal."

In the US and Britain, government is permitted to tax the peoples' money. On the Continent, the government owns all money, which it permits its citizens to use as it sees fit. A tax is a return to its rightful owner.

I see this Continental system as inherently flawed, and much to blame for Europe's perpetual malaise. However, the division between the Continent and Britain will only continue to worsen and become increasingly intolerant to the British.

The natural response is that Britain periodically strengthen its ties with the US, at the expense of the EU. Quite certainly, the momentum for further integration may have been dealt a death blow.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-10-02 11:14|| 2005-10-02 11:14|| Front Page Top

#3 great post

Posted by 2b 2005-10-02 13:02|| 2005-10-02 13:02|| Front Page Top

#4 Tough LoveÂ©

Posted by .com 2005-10-02 13:05|| 2005-10-02 13:05|| Front Page Top

#5 There is, unfortunately, an unusual amount of BS in that article and yes I know the status of VDH. A few comments:

Europeans sell arms to autocratic China that will threaten democratic Taiwan.

They do not. The arms embargo is in place and as long as China's aggressive stance persists, not likely to be lifted. Even if it were to be lifted strict controls are in place.

They legitimize the terrorists of Hamas and Hezbollah

They do not. Both organizations are branded as terrorist organizations. Being aware of their growing importance in the Palestine territories has nothing to do with "legitimizing" them.

What is behind this divide? Is it that the U.S. is militarily strong while the wealthy Europeans have made themselves essentially impotent â classic ingredients for deep seated envy?

No, most Europeans don't want to be a military power.

Or did the close of the Cold War bring an end to the shared purposes that used to paper over the cracks of innate cultural differences?

In some way, yes

Far more of them are irreligious, pacifist, and more interested in leisure than in national progress and personal wealth.

Well, that makes for an interesting debate. Do you prefer the bigger house and the bigger car to more time with your family, long holidays, travels, fun?

[NATO]It has devolved into Americans trying to shame affluent Europeans into buying a few more planes to add to their dreadfully feeble fighting forces â which lack any reflection of the vast wealth and population of Europe.

The strength of your defense force is not defined by your wealth or population but by the strength of the enemy you face. The enemy simply is not there.

In response, it is far more likely that Americans will envision Germany and France less as friends than as rivals.

The Franco-German thing is overrated, the EU is changing, and Germany is slowly developing more options.

blind support for the U.N., socialized health care, government steering of the economy, redefinition of marriage, strident abortion rights, and open euthanasia.

That's quite a stretch again. Support for the UN is anything but "blind", the worst health care is found in the UK, not in Germany (I prefer the German over the U.S. while Scandinavia beats us all, socialized or not)

to subsidize the integration of more religious, nationalistic Europeans

Didn't you just complain about how atheist we are?

Will a Belgian or Dane really feel national kinship with a distant Bulgarian, Ukrainian, or Turk in the years ahead?

Europe is not a nation

The differences between American and European material wealth are now marked and growing â Americans increasingly enjoy larger homes, more cars, more appliances, cheaper food and energy, more advanced health care, and more disposable income.

How large are homes in New York. And how large must a home be? How many cars do you need when you have excellent public transportation at your doorstep? Cheaper food? Not quality food. Burgers and fries are cheaper in the U.S., not the food at Freshfields. Advanced healthcare? Compared to Germany, I'm not so sure and you cannot run into bankruptcy with medical bills.

A recent European visitor to my farm, a member of the professional and affluent class, was stunned when I showed him the new suburban houses and multiple cars of first generation immigrants from Mexico living nearby â in the poorest section of one of the poorest inland counties of rural California. âThey seem wealthier than I am!â he exclaimed.

Let's not exaggerate. Sure some make it, but the majority of Mexicans don't own multiple shiny new cars.

In a global sense they really are, even without the subsidized train tickets, day care payments, and a government-guaranteed six-week vacation.

Vacation time is about 27 days and it's not government-guaranteed but negotiated by the industries.

The longer work hours, reduced welfare subsidies, increased transparency, and economic flexibility needed by Europe might be received by the masses not as necessary medicine, but as foul concoctions forced down their throats by the hated American competition.

Not really. It's not American competition that has made workers accept longer hours and lower wages voluntarily, but competition from Eastern Europe and Asia.

Withdraw as many American troops from the Continent as is not injurious to the global responsibilities of the United States. That will remind the Europeans that anti- American rhetoric has consequences, and that the pathology of the present teenager-parent relationship must end for both our sakes.

Oh please, "punishing" Anti-Americans by reducing US troops? Riddle me that logic. The true Anti-Americans will cheer, a silent majority will just shrug and a few communities will be economically affected. But nobody will feel "less protected" after the last US soldier leaves.

Allow dissident Europeans to enjoy fast-track immigration to the United States.

Dear VDH, please check what a "dissident" is.

The European Union deserves one collective U.N. veto befitting its new transcontinental nationhood, not multiple votes as at present.

Maybe you should not wish for it. First of all its unrealistic, second if it ever comes to a joint EU veto, it will be decided by majority. America would prefer an obnoxious France to an obnoxious EU, believe me.

And we should press for a General Assembly composed only of elected governments

Most are "elected" VDH, who is going to decide who gets a place? And what about the "outcasts". They are more likely to hang together, with consequences that could be worse than having them in the UN.

Finally, we must seek out pragmatic Europeans who are tired of business as usual, and wish to reform their union in ways that will promote American affinity. They are out there, but overwhelmed at home, and ignored by American liberals in our universities, corporations, the State Department, and elsewhere. Through government programs, think tanks, military links, shared business interests, and grass-root exchanges we must make direct connections with the many millions of Europeans who share American ideals, but have no way of expressing them on a continent dominated by a small class of haughty elites.

I'll gladly take your check :-)

Posted by True German Ally 2005-10-02 18:04|| 2005-10-02 18:04|| Front Page Top

#6 With respect, TGA, I demur from many of your assertions based both on observation and on direct and extended interaction with colleagues in many EU countries, including my spouse's large extended family in/from Germany.

I will start with the issue of the military since it is both illustrative and in many ways determinative of the attitudes I see dominate on the continent.

I wonder, for instance, if Europe isn't coming close to losing its ability to create a military force of its own. True enough, the EU would very much like to divide Britain and the other countries away from American interoperability. But when I look at your force structure, the attitudes of your leaders and over 30 years' experience in technical fields, I suspect it won't be long before it will be the Chinese selling military technology to Europe, as the Arabs sell oil.

You speak of no apparent threat. Many of the Europeans I know have substantial unease about threats they know are around them, the Arab world, immigration and the Chinese among the top ones. The solutions to these are difficult, require resolute will and a significant disruption of the status quo, and for that reason most of those same Europeans close their eyes and simply hope they can get through a comfortable last decade at work and into retirement before the continent turns into a 3rd rate ghetto. As more than 2/3 of those colleagues and extended family have no children (or grandchildren for the older ones) their time horizon for judging threats is distinctly short range.

I could quibble about details in your comments. 27 days is 5 1/2 work weeks, close to the 6 that VDH asserts, and while it is true that that is negotiated in Germany, negotiations occur under regulatory and corporate governance mechanisms which render this benefit simply not open to any real negotiation at all.

It is true that European garment factories face competition from the Chinese and the Turks, not the Americans. It is also true that the US system of competition stands symbolically in the European mind as the true source of cut-throat pressure on the EU way. One need only read the continental press - and German politician's speeches - to realize how deep the divide goes on that point.

Finally, as to tradeoffs between wealth and leisure, it is certainly true that there is a spectrum of benefit one might choose among. That is, one might do so here in the US. In Europe that spectrum is greatly constrained to one end of the spectrum.

I might be more impressed, nonetheless, by your argument of a better life style were it the case that most of the Europeans I know express joy and contentment. They do not, in fact. I regularly hear more optimism, enthusiasm and contentment from the Guatemalan immigrant who makes sandwiches at the deli near my office than I do from highly-paid, well-educated Europeans of my acquainance -- and far more than their adult children who are, in many cases, badly underemployed.

Europeans are and should be free to choose where and what they will do in this new century. I suspect VDH is correct, however, in saying that the chasm between the continent and the US has reappeared in fundamental ways and is unlikely to close of its own accord. At heart it is a matter of core values about self-determination and responsibility. Most Americans -- except those aligned with the European left -- assume that people are fundamentally responsible for their own choices and for the outcomes those choices produce. Such an idea has never take root on the continent since the classical days and I doubt I will see it do so in my remaining lifetime.

Posted by Omerens Omaigum2983 2005-10-02 18:36|| 2005-10-02 18:36|| Front Page Top

#7 Military threats to Europe:

There are none that warrant a heavy re-militarization of Europe unless Europe wants to be a military global player, intervening "cop" etc. Europe does not want to be that (at least not spend much money on it).

Islamism is a threat, but not a threat Europe will be able to thwart by boosting the military. The islamists are here, in our cities. Islamist nations may grow to be a threat, mainly by missiles, but then again, any nuclear missile threat could be contained by the French force de frappe alone. Should Germany come under a serious nuclear threat it could develop its own deterrence in a heartbeat. But no Iranian armies will march into Europe, no Chinese army will cross Siberia to get us. The challenge is an economic one.

As for the work hours, the counting is nonsense. Weekends are not holidays. Your employer doesn't pay you a dime more because of those weekends included in your holidays.

Many people actually don't take the full amount, many work overtime (often unpaid) in order to safeguard their jobs. The Economist has lauded Germany for bringing down production costs.

Unemployment is a real problem but benefits are getting cut, people who can work basically have to accept any job they are offered, and those who really don't want to work... well it maybe less costly to feed them than force them to work in something they are going to mess up anyway.

European countries need less regulations, less bureaucracy, a simple tax system etc. They need to encourage the immigration of young skilled (non Islamic) professionals.

We can do it. What holds us off is not that we are doing so bad, but because we aren't doing bad enough yet to feel the absolute urge for changes. But things are moving.

You know I'm a transatlanticist to the bones. But Europe and America will go partly joint, partly separate ways.

That's just the way it is.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-10-02 19:15|| 2005-10-02 19:15|| Front Page Top

#8 I have to disagree with some of your points as well, TGA, with the caveat that I (we) lived in Germany (Bad Soden am Taunus) from 1991 to 1995, so my observations may be a bit out of date.

In order then:

The China arms embargo: there was an embargo against Iraq, voted on in the UN Security Council, and we all know how well Europe -- particularly France, Russia and Germany -- respected it. Just because the EU is officially embargoing the sale of arms and technology to Red China means, well, what exactly?

Hamas and Hezbollah: When was the last time EU representatives, or the representatives of EU countries (specifically France and Germany) called on officials of Hamas or Hezbollah? How often have they made the argument that there is a separation between the political and terrorist arms of these and similar organizations, when we know that, like the Irish IRA and Sinn Fein, the two are intimately intwined?

Most Europeans don't want to be a military power: but why does that mean the U.S. mustn't be permitted to be one either?

Do you prefer the bigger house and the bigger car to more time with your family, long holidays, travels, fun? Well, no, I don't. But Mr. Wife does. And he chooses to work long hours, not only because he enjoys his work, but so we can afford to fulfill both his desires and mine. In America we can have the discussion because both options are affordable to most people. Even a majority of those below the poverty line own their house (not home -- most Americans live in free standing houses). In most of Europe, people can't afford to think about the choice, because even renting a house or buying a flat is beyond their reach. And when, in Germany, Mr. Wife went to the office on the weekends in order to get some things done so that he'd be able to come home at supper time during the week, he was threatened with being called up before the Works (Labour?) Council. Again, a matter of having the choice to work longer hours or earn less over the course of one's career.

The Franco-German thing is overrated, the EU is changing, and Germany is slowly developing more options: I quite agree with you (in part because your commentary has shaped my opinions -- not an easy thing to do!). Unlike France's three centuries of anti-Americanism, Germany's is much more an unsupportable feeling of cultural superiority based on ignorance, and bolstered by the media and political elite. I was forever being told by the Germans I knew about the individual Americans they liked, even as the putative characteristics of the nation were being castigated. With a new government in place, German anti-Americanism will likely be much more muted.

Health care: I've experienced both American and German, even to the point of birthing a daughter in each country (see the lengths I will go to find actual evidence to support my assertations! ;-P ). For those with money, American is much better, even given that I had private insurance in Germany. It isn't the calibre of the medical staff that differs, but the overall care offered. My sister-in-law, whose husband owns a small business and is self-insured, had to decide whether she could afford to take her small children to the pediatrician (Kinderartzt) for all their little infections, and mostly didn't; but, they got all their innoculations, and have grown up to be healthy, happy young ladies. Should they have a real medical emergency, the entire family will help, if necessary. And they would pay us back as they became able.

The differences between American and European material wealth are now marked and growing: a great deal of the costs of things -- food, clothing, utilities, even entertainment -- has to do with the taxes imposed by the respective governments. Were it not for the significantly higher taxes imposed in Europe, the price differential would not be nearly so great. The other part of the cost differential has to do with economies of scale ... one of the reasons the EU went to the Euro.

America would prefer an obnoxious France to an obnoxious EU, believe me. I quite agree, and it looks like this is what will happen.

Forgive the lengthiness of this post, but I wanted to give a complete explanation of my positions. You deserve no less, dear TGA.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-10-02 19:40|| 2005-10-02 19:40|| Front Page Top

#9 @trailing wife

1) Germany did not break the Iraq arms embargo. German businessmen who dealt in arms with Iraq in the 90s were prosecuted and quite a few are behind bars. One guy got a few years just for sending a fax offer to Iraq.
In France things are a bit murkier because government and industry are more closely connected but France did not break the embargo either (they might have turned a blind eye maybe)

2) Hamas and Hezbollah:
Both organizations are officially branded as terrorist. When Germany negotiated an exchange deal between dead Israeli soldiers and living Hezbollah prisoners, it did so at the request of Israel. Even Israel, you might argue, can't ignore the existence of those factions.

3) I don't think Europeans claim that the US cease to be a military power. Some are even afraid that you are overstretching

4) Europeans have the same choices re bigger house etc. Nobody stops them from working harder, working in the holidays, on Saturdays, making extra bucks. Nobody forces them either. That houses are cheaper in the US is true. Reasons for that are cheaper properties (more space available) and easier construction types (not the cellar-cement-built forever German style). Rents in New York or Washington are definitely not cheaper than Munich or Berlin.

5) Health care: The upper end is good everywhere, even in France. The US might even be better in that respect but also more expensive. I got some routine xrays in the US after a minor accident. They cost me 300$ cash. Asked my doctor back home. The same xrays would have cost me 120$ cash in Germany, but of course with insurance, nothing. The average worker pays maybe 80 dollars of medical insurance a month. I have seen a general hospital in DC and I would not want to repeat the experience. In Germany nobody, not even the poorest guy would go bankrupt after lengthy cancer treatments or the like.

6) Material wealth in Europe is not evenly distributed, not even in Germany. In Bavaria people do very well, there's trillions of Euros that will change hands by inheritance, and modern technology is booming, like biotech, solar energy etc. Machine consatruction is still going strong. And there are all those kids with IPods, designer clothes, new mobile phones... Yes our cars are smaller but then again we don't have many places to drive those trucks the way they were built for. And they consume less energy. In any big city we could even go without cars, and if we are indeed heading into a major energy crisis, that's not a bad thing. How many people in America could go to work with a bicycle?

Personally I believe that the world economy is heading into leaner time because of energy problems. The big house, the big car may not be so attractive if that happens.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-10-02 20:46|| 2005-10-02 20:46|| Front Page Top

#10 How many people in America could go to work with a bicycle?

you'd be surprised TGA!

Look, Europe has many good things that we can't find in America and America has many good things you can't find in Europe.

American's don't dislike Germans. They dislike Germans who claim to be so enlightened and then let Americans keep the world safe for democracy. But before you get defensive - we don't like Americans, here at home who do the same thing. It doesn't include people like you who and many of your other countrymen.

Posted by 2b 2005-10-02 21:10|| 2005-10-02 21:10|| Front Page Top

#11 Of course. "Quality of life" has different definitions. And it's not all defined by gadgets and money.

And yes, people who make believe that they "have eaten wisdom by the big spoon" are equally unpopular in Germany and in the U.S.

One thing you definitely need is to train drinking Bavarian beer before hitting the Oktoberfest!

(OK that goes for Italians, too)

Posted by True German Ally 2005-10-02 21:48|| 2005-10-02 21:48|| Front Page Top

#12 Oddly enough, TGA, Mr. Wife went to Oktoberfest with some male friends, but without the children and me. It could perhaps be that I don't appreciate beer properly, even if I do like Ebbelwein in season. ;-) But even Oktoberfest is different here in America -- the Cincinnati, Ohio Oktoberfest is the second biggest in the world after Munich, but instead of drinking beer by the Mass, we stuff our bellies with gigantic cream puffs, deep fried sauerkraut balls, kartoffelpuffer, and similar delicacies. And the year round we go to the only other Hofbrauhaus in the world (thus far), just across the river in Kentucky, where they imported the proper waitresses from Bavaria to train the local girls.

I concede your point about German businessmen vs. the German government, although the two types seem somewhat more entwined in Germany than in the States, although significantly less entwined than in France, where there doesn't seem to be a real separation.

As for automobiles, it would be silly to have a minivan over there like I have here -- there'd be no place to park it! But all the business managers I knew (not just senior vice presidents, but those in middle management) drove 500 series BMWs or the equivalent Mercedes. Their wives all drove Volkswagens. But we walked into the village to shop, or took the bus or train into the city as needed. And it was my German girlfriends who insisted that we take all the children to MacDonalds for lunch, a place they could eat food they liked without being chastised by the staff for their childish manners. ;-)

It seems sensible that petrolium prices will remain at the higher end of the range for some years to come, as we get used to accomodating the growing economies of India and Red China. Hybrid cars are selling faster than they can be produced in America, and in each of the last two years more product lines have been offered with this option. As yet the absolute numbers are still small, but it will be intersting to see what proportion of the cars in America vs. the rest of the world get 30-50 miles per gallon... and how many of the houses rebuilt after this hurricane season are built to more efficiently use energy, but away from the flood zones.

This next year should proved very interesting indeed, and I look forward to looking back upon its events from the comfort of an easy chair, knowing that all I care about are safe and comfortable, too. Let me wish you and your lovely wife, family and friends all the best for the new year to come: L'Schana Tovah for the year 5766 of the Jewish calendar... and the same hopes for all those who work toward freedom and peace both at home and abroad.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-10-02 23:05|| 2005-10-02 23:05|| Front Page Top

23:57 .com
23:51 Red Dog
23:50 DMFD
23:47 Bomb-a-rama
23:38 Bomb-a-rama
23:33 DMFD
23:30 Omolusing Glurong4284
23:25 Fun Dung Poo
23:25 imoyaro
23:24 Red Dog
23:23 r
23:18 Fun Dung Poo
23:10 DMFD
23:09 phil_b
23:08 Comic-book Guy
23:05 trailing wife
23:04 .com
23:02 .com
23:02 Frank G
22:59 phil_b
22:52 .com
22:46 Fun Dung Poo
22:40 True German Ally
22:40 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom