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2005-02-19 Europe
Why the EU Constitution is bad for Britain and bad for the US
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Posted by tipper 2005-02-19 12:22:02 PM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 "'You don’t have to read the treaty to know it’s a good thing.' In Spain, at least, it seems likely that the faithful will accept this secular bishop’s advice: they won’t read the constitution, and they will vote for it."

Indeed:

"Nine out of 10 Spaniards say they know nothing about the charter, according to a recent government poll. But just over half said they would vote in favour."
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-19 2:41:02 PM||   2005-02-19 2:41:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'm sure Aris will rush to the EU's defence any moment...
Posted by Raj 2005-02-19 2:41:31 PM||   2005-02-19 2:41:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Is the EU "constitution" online? Not that everyone (or even a lot of people) would read it even then, but at least it would be available.

If it is, maybe some enterprising Brit can start a constitution web site. Link to the EU constitution AND the US Constitution, with the first pages of each displayed on the site. Particularly the "We the People" vs. the "King of the Belgians" part.

I still think the EU "constitution" is more comparable to the US Code of Federal Regulations than to our Constitution. Your mileage may vary.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2005-02-19 2:43:33 PM||   2005-02-19 2:43:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Barbara -- Considering that their constitution runs, what, 200+ pages, that would be some huge honkin' website.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-19 2:57:00 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/]  2005-02-19 2:57:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Barbara - if you're really feeling like a glutton for punishment, you can get it here.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-02-19 2:59:22 PM||   2005-02-19 2:59:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 # 3 Barb and # 5 Desert Blondie. It would be worth reading.

ANdrea
Posted by Andrea  2005-02-19 3:00:31 PM||   2005-02-19 3:00:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Here it is.

If you want to know what the BBC thinks it all means, look here.

Recommended by the APA for treatment of insomnia.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-19 3:01:50 PM||   2005-02-19 3:01:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#8  It would be worth reading.

I would say it would be educational. Worth reading?

Darn! That's a good one! ;-)
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-02-19 3:03:47 PM||   2005-02-19 3:03:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Time consuming- YAWN* Yes, perfect rx for insomnia. Andrea
Posted by Andrea  2005-02-19 3:13:12 PM||   2005-02-19 3:13:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I often wonder if centuries hence the comments of he-who-shall-not-be-named or someone else in this debate will put him in the ranks of Alexander, Jay and Madison.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-19 3:17:00 PM||   2005-02-19 3:17:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Extra! extra! Tomorrow I will post a comparison between the Constitution of the United States and the Soviet EU Constitution.
Posted by JFM  2005-02-19 3:33:44 PM||   2005-02-19 3:33:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Why wait for tomorrow:

The U.S. Constitution preamble begins: "We the people of the United States..."

The EU Constitution preamble begins: "HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS..."

I kid you NOT. See page 11 of 325 at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/21_07_04cg00086.en04.pdf
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 3:42:43 PM||   2005-02-19 3:42:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 It's not a constitution. It should be called "Stuff that Giscard thinks eurocrats should agree upon somehow"
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:04:09 PM||   2005-02-19 4:04:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Lol, TGA. That's a majestic summary, lol!
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 4:05:05 PM||   2005-02-19 4:05:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Agreed, but it's too long. Can we just all agree to go with "STGT" for the rest of the thread?
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 4:08:14 PM||   2005-02-19 4:08:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The more I read the less I like it. First thing I would do is edit 90% out.

Then start up a multilanguage forum where people of all member states would discuss the paragraphs.

And yes, it would start with "we the people, who have decided to kick some eurocrat's ass..."
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:08:41 PM||   2005-02-19 4:08:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Lol! I want to lobby for the right to be flexible about that first "S". I'm thinking "shit" or "shrubberies" instead of "stuff", but that's just me.
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 4:10:33 PM||   2005-02-19 4:10:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 We can be flexible.
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 4:14:30 PM||   2005-02-19 4:14:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 A lot of stuff in the constitution is quite ok. The problem is that much of it is obvious, superfluous... and then you have some "goodies" which may turn out to be hidden landmines ready to explode when the first disagreements turn up.

I can't even vote on the constitution. I couldn't vote on the Euro either but my finance minister said that due to stringent, carved in stone, iron stability rules about deficits etc the Euro would be ok.

Words...
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:16:17 PM||   2005-02-19 4:16:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Why couldn't/can't you vote?
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 4:18:58 PM||   2005-02-19 4:18:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 The German Basic Law doesn't allow for national referendums although a 2/3 majority in parliament could change that.

But now even the Greens, the former champions of "Basisdemokratie" have abandoned the idea.

---------------
Of course nobody wants you to start THINKING about the EU constitution. Just take the first Article:

Article 1: Establishment of the Union
1. Reflecting the will of the citizens and States of Europe to build a common future, this
Constitution establishes the European Union, on which the Member States confer
competences to attain objectives they have in common. The Union shall coordinate the
policies by which the Member States aim to achieve these objectives, and shall exercise in the
Community way the competences they confer on it.

No, Mr Giscard, the constitution should not "reflect" the will of its people, it should EXPRESS it, POSTULATE it. The rest is political blabla.

2. The Union shall be open to all European States which respect its values and are committed to promoting them together.

Get a map: Check where Turkey lies. And the Ukraine. So on which ground did you just refuse Yushenko? And which "values" are more European, those of Turkey or those of the Ukraine?

If I had more time I could go on fisking the whole Constitution.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:29:44 PM||   2005-02-19 4:29:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Nobody has THAT much time except the EU bureaucrats and the Greek geek who shall not be named.
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 4:33:52 PM||   2005-02-19 4:33:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Of course not, that's the whole purpose of this blown up text.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:36:27 PM||   2005-02-19 4:36:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Thanks, Bulldog, but I'd rather put my time to more productive use - such as watching oil paint dry.

After all, we've already got a Constitution. And at the risk of sounding snarky, I'm willing to bet ours has already lasted a lot longer than the EU's will. (I'm not wishing any harm on the EU or European nations when I say that; I'm just looking at things realistically.)

Just a suggestion for some enterprising Brit who wants to keep Britain free and has some spare time on his/her hands. ;-p
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2005-02-19 4:38:12 PM||   2005-02-19 4:38:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 #4 Blondie - It wouldn't have to be a big site if they linked to the constitution as a whole and just posted selected pages on the site.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2005-02-19 4:40:02 PM||   2005-02-19 4:40:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 The EU constitution reminds me of nothing more than the internal revenue code because regardless of how impossible it is to read for a normal human being, I know that there are dozens of people representing special interest groups who have agonized for days over the wording and placement of every sentence in it. What is even more amaxing is that it is upon this foundation that the beneficient effects of the modern welfare state lie. Yet it all still seems like the vanity of vanities.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-19 4:41:27 PM||   2005-02-19 4:41:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Barbara (I guess you meant me), we could definitely use more American input.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 4:42:28 PM||   2005-02-19 4:42:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 #21 TGA - I wish you did have more time to fisk it. Your insights are wonderful and much appreciated.

Maybe if somebody starts the web site I (only half-jokingly) suggested, you could be one of the contributors.... ;-p
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2005-02-19 4:44:50 PM||   2005-02-19 4:44:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I'll lend the domain, if you'd like a site for fisking or whatever suits you, heh. Hell, I'll set it up on a friend's hosting service, pay for it, and you can run it, TGA. How about either thenetforum.com or thewebforum.com - I own those and could set up either one in 24 hrs ready for you to take over. No bandwidth or storage limits would apply to that sort of site. Perhaps the best thing is that it maintains your anonymity. Interested, TGA?

I don't own any blog or similar software, but that wouldn't be a big deal, I don't think. Contact Fred to pass along to me, if so. I'd stay out of it - you'd control it completely.
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 4:53:03 PM||   2005-02-19 4:53:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 .com, thanks a lot for the interesting offer. I think I should read the whole damn thing first :-)

I'll keep it in mind.

For the moment I'm a bit more concerned with an important visitor. :-)
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 5:03:52 PM||   2005-02-19 5:03:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 TGA - If / when you want such an outlet, just let me know thru Fred - and consider it done, bro.
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 5:12:30 PM||   2005-02-19 5:12:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Thanks, I truly appreciate it.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 5:27:37 PM||   2005-02-19 5:27:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 bubbler.com is a new blog software...haven't looked at it but thought I'd pass it along.
Posted by Seafarious  2005-02-19 5:30:56 PM||   2005-02-19 5:30:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Sea - Looks interesting - excellent pricing, too, for regular blogging using their site. Pricey for corp use on own servers - guess it's for those that don't have a web team.

If it's as fast as they say, then some of our folks who're using other systems might want to take a look. The price is right, anyway, heh.
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 6:10:57 PM||   2005-02-19 6:10:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I must ask a question of the better edumacated out there:

The EU Constitution says on the second paragraph of p12: Believing that Europe, reunited after bitter experiences,

When was Europe ever united? There has not been a significant period of time when there were not wars of one stripe or another going on. Some of the worst atrocities in known history were committed on the continent in those wars.

Does anyone know when the continent was united the first time?
Posted by Jame Retief  2005-02-19 6:12:45 PM||   2005-02-19 6:12:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Gondwanaland
Posted by Frank G  2005-02-19 6:14:48 PM||   2005-02-19 6:14:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 When the dinosaurs lived there in total peace and tranquility? Y'know, the Gaia thingy.
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 6:20:00 PM||   2005-02-19 6:20:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Barbara Skolaut # 3 I did read the whole EU constitution, as you mentioned; I don't think it is a constitution either! I can't imagine abidding by that in the court's.

Andrea
Posted by Andrea  2005-02-19 6:38:04 PM||   2005-02-19 6:38:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Barbara Skolaut # 3 I did read the whole EU constitution, as you mentioned; I don't think it is a constitution either! I can't imagine abidding by that in the court's.

Andrea
Posted by Andrea  2005-02-19 6:38:31 PM||   2005-02-19 6:38:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 TGA -- good the hear there's some skepticism on the continent. What gives me the willies about the EU is the constant refrain from the French that the EU is necessary to "counterbalance" the US. The "counter" word conjures up all sorts of ugly, ugly images.

But, really, people, what are you THINKING. He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named is gonna come in here and throw a tantrum the likes of which have never been seen.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-02-19 6:54:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-02-19 6:54:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 A prime example of diplomatic loggorhea.
Posted by Omainter Omearong2462 2005-02-19 6:55:27 PM||   2005-02-19 6:55:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Gondwanaland

That gets my vote for Today's Funniest Snark!
Posted by SteveS 2005-02-19 6:55:45 PM||   2005-02-19 6:55:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Robert Crawford and others, I find it very irritating that I have to come to a US website (focussing on the WOT) to get a discussion going about the European Constitution. Maybe I shouldn't do this but I'd like Aris, the constitution expert, to find me a couple of forums where the articles of the Constitution (and the consequences of its ratification) are discussed in earnest.

I just can't find any.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 7:35:28 PM||   2005-02-19 7:35:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Pretty much the entire continent was united in 1941-43. Just leaving out the UK, Sweden, Swizerland, Portugal, and maybe Spain.
Posted by jackal  2005-02-19 7:53:07 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]  2005-02-19 7:53:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 TGA, now you're talking about the exercise of Free Speech, something I understand they don't really have in Europe.
Posted by Dishman  2005-02-19 7:53:35 PM||   2005-02-19 7:53:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 tga, i have no reason to assume that you're pulling our leg... that's, for the lack of a better word, amazing[exclamation]

[my keyboard refuses to do upper case at the moment]
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-02-19 7:54:33 PM||   2005-02-19 7:54:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Oh.. so the "bitter experiences" actually refers to the US/UK landings in Sicily and Normandy.

Western Europe was mostly united under the Romans.
Posted by Dishman  2005-02-19 7:56:09 PM||   2005-02-19 7:56:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 TGA - Sadly, I think that's the way the EU wants it. Why else would people like the Spanish Justice Minister say things like "you don't need to read the treaty to know it's a good thing"?

I thought you were kidding about the lack of debate on this in Europe until I plugged in "european constitution discussion". Check out this one here: http://www.debatabase.org/details.asp?topicID=284 . The last sentence in the "motions" section just is, well, scary.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-19 8:03:56 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/]  2005-02-19 8:03:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Dishman, we DO have Freedom of Speech. But in this case we don't seem to make much use of it.

Europe was "united" under Charlemagne. At least those parts of Europe France cares about.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 8:05:06 PM||   2005-02-19 8:05:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Desert Blondie, not only that. All discussion about the Constitution seems to be very general.

Nobody bothers to get down to the details where the Devil uses to dwell.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 8:10:21 PM||   2005-02-19 8:10:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 And so we've come full circle:
"In the stern old pre-Vatican II days, Roman Catholics used to be instructed not to read the Bible by themselves. The theory was that, if they did so, they might misunderstand what it meant and commit the error of "private judgment". Reading the Bible on your own was a Protestant idea, dangerous in the heady freedom it would give you. You might end up coming to your own conclusions."
Posted by Tom 2005-02-19 8:13:11 PM||   2005-02-19 8:13:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 TGA, you have it.. sorta.. within bounds...
My recollections are:
"Chirac est un ver" - The Sun's special edition
Galloway winning a libel suit without the papers even having a chance to prove it was true
Wearing flags to school in The Netherlands..
Posted by Dishman  2005-02-19 8:15:22 PM||   2005-02-19 8:15:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Just an example:
The European Youth Portal (official EU site has this offer:

The place of young people in the future Constitution:
How do you, as young people, see your role in the future European Constitution? Tell us what your think!

You click on the link and then this page comes up:

No debates available

(But this in all EU languages)
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 8:19:14 PM||   2005-02-19 8:19:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Well, TGA, as they say...people get the kind of government they deserve (provided thay have any say in the matter).
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-02-19 8:20:37 PM||   2005-02-19 8:20:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 TGA,
A good starting point you can try is http://eu-constitution.typepad.com/. It is written by a French guy living in the USA and is pro EU. Another site, The Fundamental Principles of the European constitution discusses the EU constitution by authors from several nationalities. Anti-EU sites that discuss more than the constitution:
http://eu-serf.blogspot.com/
http://www.eursoc.com/

Continental Europe was also pretty much united during Napoleon's reign.
Posted by ed 2005-02-19 8:25:12 PM||   2005-02-19 8:25:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 A UK blogsite discussing / dissing the EU...
EU Referendum
Posted by .com 2005-02-19 8:31:17 PM||   2005-02-19 8:31:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 ed.. not to mention 1942...

.com, I just found that, too. (The British are most active, of course) But I'm still looking for a forum where people vividly discuss the articles of the Constitution.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-02-19 8:34:06 PM||   2005-02-19 8:34:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 TGA, there must be at least one site. Hidden somewhere...in the recesses of internet...
Results 697,000 sites for discussion of articles of the EU Constitution... seeking... seeking... page20... seeking...
I give up. No forum. If you want one, TGA, I can setup one for ya. You may as well be the first to establish one. Click on my nick to email.
Posted by Sobiesky  2005-02-19 9:39:36 PM||   2005-02-19 9:39:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 The preamble to the EU Constitution is what—17 pages long? The preamble to the US Constitution is—a single paragraph that has been turned into a popular song. I know which I prefer.

Besides, it seems the entire point of the EU Constitution is to enshrine the EU's current failing economic structure and make it impossible to debate.
Posted by Eric Jablow  2005-02-19 10:02:51 PM||   2005-02-19 10:02:51 PM|| Front Page Top

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