Article

2005-01-25 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by God Save The World 2005-01-25 12:38:55 AM|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 with a cossack heritage--a fat out of shape body--a small dick--and vodka for breakfast--any russkie worth his samovar will revert to jew hating--it was the national sport for years

Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2005-01-25 2:33:52 AM|| 2005-01-25 2:33:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Damn! Cover has been blown again! Well, no more loans for them. And we re-possess all the tanks bought on credit.

Posted by Elders of Zion 2005-01-25 7:08:52 AM|| 2005-01-25 7:08:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Stalin's Legacy,alive and well.

Posted by Raptor 2005-01-25 7:36:02 AM|| 2005-01-25 7:36:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 At least this time the Jews have a nation of their own to flee to and the military power to defend themselves.

Posted by Charles 2005-01-25 8:24:10 AM|| 2005-01-25 8:24:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 This is an example of Russians imitating the EU.

Posted by Mark Z. 2005-01-25 9:13:45 AM|| 2005-01-25 9:13:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Russia's parallels with 1930s Germany keep on increasing and increasing, ain't they? This isn't even the disguised antisemetism of the "Israel is wholly at fault for everything" variety -- this is the naked revealed antisemetism of the "Jews everywhere are part of an evil global conspiracy" variety.

And as a sidenote: try not to be so much of a fucking idiot, Mark Z.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-25 9:25:04 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-25 9:25:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 My ancestors on my mother's side were Jewish farmers that had enough of the Russian pogroms, and decided to skidaddle to the USA, a decision I still support today.

I can see from #5 and #6 that this is going to be a loooooooonnnnnng thread. ***sigh***

Posted by Alaska Paul 2005-01-25 9:30:28 AM|| 2005-01-25 9:30:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Raptor: Stalin's Legacy,alive and well.

Anti-semitism in Russia predated Stalin. Communism provided Jews with opportunities for advancement in the Russian government. It wasn't perfect, but it was preferable to Tsarist rule, from a Jewish standpoint.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-25 9:53:39 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-25 9:53:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Relax, folks. In the post-communist era there has always been a flagrantly anti-semitic hardcore minority with representation in the Duma, Zhirinovsky being the most visible advocate. (Zhirinovsky's own father is jewish, which he hides by describes his father as "a lawyer." Which has earned him the media epithet of syn advokata, or "Son of a Lawyer"...)

The people to watch are not a few wackos in the Duma but those in the big chairs in the Moscow Mayor's office and of course the Kremlin. Neither of whom has shown the slightest inclination to attack, or for that matter tolerate attacks on, jews.

Net: nothing here. Not yet, anyway.

Posted by lex 2005-01-25 10:42:52 AM|| 2005-01-25 10:42:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Putin has done more than any Russian leader, ever, to improve the standing and acceptance of jews in a notoriously anti-semitic nation. There are plenty of reasons to scorn Putin-- I myself believe he's merely a puppet for coirrupt security service officers-- but this ain't one of them. It's too early to say whether Russia has turned a corner in its acceptance of its jewish population, but there is no doubt about where the Russian government stands.

If this were not so we would not be seeing thousands of Russian jews returning to Russia from Israel, as has occurred in the last three years due to Russia's oil and other commodities bonanza.

Posted by lex 2005-01-25 10:48:03 AM|| 2005-01-25 10:48:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Well, what did you expect after all the horrors they perpetrated in Beslan, Chechnya, Moscow?

er, waitaminnit...

Posted by BH 2005-01-25 11:25:36 AM|| 2005-01-25 11:25:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Lex, at least part of the reason the Russian Jews go home is that they don't like the rough'n'tumble Israeli culture. They went there expecting to be coddled and adored for their culturedness and education, and were shocked to discover that PhDs with honors in physics or linguistics are almost as common as dirt over there, concert violinists ditto. And to add insult to injury, they had to support themselves driving taxis and suchlike, whatever they could find, instead of a spot being made for them in the field of their choice. Some couldn't handle that much reality, so they grabbed the opportunity to go back to familiar discomforts.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-25 11:54:35 AM|| 2005-01-25 11:54:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Interesting, tw. But the point for this discussion is that Russian Jewish emigrants are returning to Russia, which has never happened in recent history and which implies that anti-semitism in contemporary Russia is not a major force.

Posted by lex 2005-01-25 11:59:22 AM|| 2005-01-25 11:59:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 trailing wife - Hmm, that sounds rather like some of those stories about people getting out of the USSR during the cold war, coming to the US and then freaking out and wanting to go back.

Spring of 1989 there were some exchange students from Russia that visited the Univ of Texas. My wife's roommate was one of their student "sponsors" while they were here.

The girls never would smile because they were self conscious about their dental work (not even when they were taken to visit Bergstrom AFB, now Austin's airport, and several fighter pilots at the base were all but fighting each other to try and ask them out).

The young men, though, spent most of the trip drunk and sitting around sulking. What started that, and I am not kidding, was a trip to the local grocery store (HEB). After that, they were just depressed and spent the rest of the trip getting sloshed.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2005-01-25 12:50:42 PM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2005-01-25 12:50:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 lex, I honestly think that, had the opportunity to go back been available to the Soviet/Russian emigrants in the past, there would have been a noticeable number of returnees then, too. LotR's tale rings true with what I remember of the Soviet Jews who came out in the old days. While some gorged themselves on opportunity, or were simply grateful to escape, quite a few did not make a good transition, even with the massive support of the local Jewish community.

What I think this means is that the familiar strains of antisemitism are not enough to prevent the uncomfortable from returning during a more favourable economic environment, not that the antisemitism is more or less pervasive than it was when they left. And I cannot judge that because, as you say, the nationalists and their fellow travelers have long been openly and flagrantly antisemitic.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-25 1:13:50 PM|| 2005-01-25 1:13:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 lex-It's not finally about Putin. It's about whether those politicians and populaces who consider themselves Europeans (Putin, Schroeder, Chirac and their constituencies) are heading down the path for a repeat of WWII. Sound impossible? As I said in my commentary #100 of 1/20, what percentages of the populaces I describe above side with Israel in the Israel/Palestinian conflict? Very few. The majority's sympathies tend to side with "the other"-in this case, with Mother Russia, in the case of Germany, with the Aryans---the other always meaning non-Jewish. Europe has some self-examination to do (and so does America, as anyone has been listening to the number of anti-Semitic callers coming in on C-Span regularly can attest). Schroeder may be making his comments to the BBC today in memory of the Holocaust, but let's not let him, Germany, the EU or anyone else off the hook when it comes to siding with the other. When Europe sides with the other, Jews end up dead.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-25 3:14:19 PM|| 2005-01-25 3:14:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 It's about whether those politicians and populaces who consider themselves Europeans (Putin, Schroeder, Chirac and their constituencies)

This is just a sidepoint but from everything I gather, I believe Russia doesn't consider itself to be "European" in the sense that France and Germany do.

I think it's a more fitting interpretation of global politics if you see Russia as a separate thing. It's Europe *and* Russia, not Europe-including-Russia. Russia is a global player and a "pole" in its own right.

As I said in my commentary #100 of 1/20, what percentages of the populaces I describe above side with Israel in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

I don't have statistics to show it, but my feeling is that the overwhelming majority of Europeans supports the existence of Israel. That puts them in ideological opposition to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamist Jihad or Hezbollah.

However I think that the overwhelming majority of European also supports the existence of a free and unoccupied independent Palestinian state.

Israel already exists, and (even though I think them wrong) most European don't consider its existence to be in danger. It's the independent Palestinian state that doesn't exist however.

So from that point on, I think it depends what you mean by "side with Israel in the Israel/Palestinian conflict".

Most Europeans see the basics of the conflict as being "the Israelis have an independent state but denying the Palestinians one". And since not large amounts of people are exactly informed of the full rhetoric of groups like Hamas, they see the Palestinians as using horrible means in order to achieve a just cause -- freedom.

I know many want to conflate the two, but I do believe there's a vast difference between anti-semetism and merely anti-Israel opinions, even though the latter indeed occasionally disguises the former.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-25 4:29:37 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-25 4:29:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 This is just a sidepoint but from everything I gather, I believe Russia doesn't consider itself to be "European" in the sense that France and Germany do.

In my more limited experience (in comparison with yours, since you live in Europe and I only lived there in 1993 and 1994), they DO consider themselves European culturally, intellectually, globally. It is one of the things that keeps their heads held high.

Europe may support the idea of an Israel or the idea of a Palestine (and I still disagree with you here-I think Europe has a very ugly skeleton in its closet, as I said in #100), but support of an idea and carrying through on actions to manifest that idea are two different things. What does Europe do to help each side? Well, they help by sending aid to Palestinians (which doesn't always end up in innocent hands) and always coming to their (verbal) defense, but they cannot seem to even muster the slightest sympathy for blown up Israelis. As I contended, most Europeans I hear from (on websites, news commentary blogs, acquaintances) will stand and shout wholeheartedly for Palestine, but always qualify their support for Israel with "buts"--this combination puts into question their true beliefs. Since the voice seems to reign supreme in Europe these days, why don't European leaders lead the calls denouncing terrorism against Israel? If they comment at all, it is to second someone else's comment--but most times, it seems that Europe is strangely silent or making excuses for people who blow up babies.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-25 4:54:30 PM|| 2005-01-25 4:54:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Most Europeans see the basics of the conflict as being "the Israelis have an independent state but denying the Palestinians one".

For their part, I don't believe Americans as a majority want to stop the statehood of Palestine. That said, Americans will not be behind statehood for terrorists or terrorist backers, which is how the Palestinians have defined themselves in our eyes. These two differing views (EU's & US's) of the parties make our work together unpromising. We hope Mr. Abbas is able to move Palestine beyond this deadly impasse, but with Palestinians being held unaccountable (having to produce no security results of their own), with unconditional preference in Europe for Palestinians over Israelis, hope in the Peace Plan remains slim.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-25 5:07:08 PM|| 2005-01-25 5:07:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Russia today is not all the Russia of 1989. At that time, Russians visiting the West were like carmelite nuns suddenly free to talk with others beyond the convent and to explore the world. After a lifetime spent in near-total isolation-- you really can't imagine it, but in fact they had no access to information, to ideas, no ability to travel, no relatives abroad in 99.999% of cases-- it was hugely disorienting for any Russian who was not a diplomat's kid or party hack to spend time in any western state. Which is why most resorted to the state of inebriation or of self-imposed isolation.

As to the danger of a revival of anti-semitism in Russia, I don't see it. It's simply not a major issue in Moscow or StP, and what anti-semitism exists is nothing new or virulent. It's the same old cranks-- and they are all old and getting older-- but without the crucial element of state support, which was solid and widespread under the soviets. Simply not a major issue in that country.

Posted by lex 2005-01-25 6:00:41 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:00:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Jules, don't eat the chum. If this thread gets arisized, it's finished.

Posted by lex 2005-01-25 6:01:56 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:01:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#22
lex's comments above are correct. These anti-Semites do occupy some positions in the Duma, but they're relatively insignificant.

One thing to keep in mind is that after the Soviet Union fell apart, several Jews became fabulously wealthy by acquiring assets that previously had belonged to the communist state. That development gave a fresh impetus to anti-Semitic attitudes.

There's a lot of anger in the society, and a lot of the old prejudices and beliefs persist. In general, though, anti-Semitism is whithering away.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-25 6:24:18 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:24:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Lex and Mike, I disagree. I am watching trends since mid 90's and the antisemitism is on the increase worldwide, Russia is no exception.

I have a feeling we're back in 1930's again. In 5 years or so, the EUros would have a choice, giving up their Jews to Mohamedans for appeasement, or else. After a while, the jihadis would declare they were kidding, infidels must be cleansed too.

Posted by Cat D12 2005-01-25 6:43:32 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:43:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Lex-Perhaps I am overreaching, but can we break it down?

Is Russia's identity European in their own eyes? They certainly shared a significant past, in trade and secondary language spread, in wars and alliances, in music and art...Germany was the enemy of Russia in WWII, but ask your relatives and colleagues that lived at that time: outside of Jewish families, what was the opinion of Jews among rank and file Russians in the 1930s and 1940s? Did anything in the subsequent decades change that view, from a demographic aspect?

Posted by jules 2 2005-01-25 7:38:39 PM|| 2005-01-25 7:38:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 To broaden the topic a bit (how complicated our world is becoming):

Is Russia a part of Europe in EUROPE's eyes?

With whom is Russia more likely to ally itself, its Moslem neighbors along its southern borders, its European neighbors to the west, with America, China, with countries in South America, in Africa? Or to every place at every time for Russia's own well-concealed reasons?

What about Cat D12's point? The general conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims has a vigorous second front now-Europe. How are the Europeans responding to that threat? Who has been trying to "work with who"; who is being sought out for satisfaction? That should be of much concern to Mr. Putin, who has ridden through 2 very ugly terror incidents (that I know of) in the last couple of years and will need to get his hands around a sound policy. Is he taking America's track (or so we would wish it)-fighting any and all affiliates of terror, or is he more attracted to the EU elixir for hudna, commerce-based solutions with a dash of dialogue? Makes one wonder. Mr. Putin has some potentially massive problems on his hands along that southern Russian border.

Is the reason Putin became so cold with the US (predating Beslan) primarily an economic one-that we have ruined a good thing he had going in Iraq? What on earth has made him throw away a good hand?

Lex-I agree that anti-Semitism may not be at crisis stage in Russia, nor in Europe. Yet.

Posted by jules 2 2005-01-25 8:01:57 PM|| 2005-01-25 8:01:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#26
Re #24 (jules): what was the opinion of Jews among rank and file Russians in the 1930s and 1940s?

There was a lot of prejudice against Jews in the 1930s and 1940s among Russians, as there was among Germans, other Europeans, and North Americans. The reasons everywhere were similar. Jews were non-Christians. Jews were prominent in finance, trade, crime, radical politics, and other endeavors that upset people. Jews had Asiatic, not European blood. Jews were not loyal to their governments. Jews were involved in secret conspiracies to take over the world. Such ideas were widely spread.

In Russia and Germany such ideas were aggravated by military defeats, economic catastrophes, political violence, tyranical government, censorship of information, suppression of dissent, and systematic brainwashing.

In Russia several of these factors persisted through the 1980s.

As the Soviet Union collapsed and people were allowed to criticize Communism, the criticism included accusations that Jews were largely to blame. Russians read such accusations for the first time, and many Russians were impressed by the evidence. They read long lists of Communists who Jews or who were thought to be Jews. They also learned that many Jews became fabulously rich after the Soviet Union fell apart.

More generally, though, the Russians are gradually and freely learning, discussing and accepting their true history. They are hearing all sides of arguments, and they gradually are putting Russians and Jews in proper relationships and perspectives in their thinking. You can be sure that this proposal in the Duma is being critized and that Russians are hearing that criticism.

Also, most of the Jews have left Russia. I don't know the percentage, but I think that Jews now must constitute less than one percent of the population. So, blaming the Jews for current problems just can't resonate much in a real way.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-25 9:45:49 PM|| 2005-01-25 9:45:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Mike, you don't understand. You have no idea how deeply anti-semitism is weaved into the EUro and Russian cultures.

The ability to learn freely does not in any way diminish this trait, otherwise it would have been eliminated already in EUroland, it's a red herring.

It really does not matter how many Jews remain in Russia, when the opportunity arises and people would feel the need to elevate the blame game to social events, because it is easier than to resolve the issues by exerting an effort, who do you think they will target?

Posted by Cat D12 2005-01-25 10:13:07 PM|| 2005-01-25 10:13:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#28
Re #27 (CatD)

Some Russians still blame Jews for social and economic problems. The posted article is a vivid example. Those Russians are a small, vocal minority who exert decreasingly little influence on Russian society's thinking. Blame for current problems is placed much more on organized crime, official corruption and Moslem terrorists than on Jewish conspiracies. Hostility toward Jews has been withering away along with the departure of Jews themselves from Russia. Most young Russians have never personally met any Jews.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-25 10:34:19 PM|| 2005-01-25 10:34:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I know quite a few people that never met any Jew personally, and yet they are anti-semites. How do you parse that?

Posted by Cat D12 2005-01-25 10:37:14 PM|| 2005-01-25 10:37:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#30
Some people study evidence for Jewish conspiracies and become convinced that there are such conspiracies and that they are very important. Most people don't bother to study such issues, and they are influenced more casually by general talk, general impressions, and personal experiences. The latter group, which is much larger, is decreasingly influenced by the smaller group of anti-Semite zealots. Their accusations do not resonate with most people's experiences and concerns.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-25 10:46:20 PM|| 2005-01-25 10:46:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Okydoky then. How do you explain that the anti-semitism incidents are on the increase worldwide? According to your analysis, the trend should be just the opposite, n'est ce pas?

Posted by Cat D12 2005-01-25 10:53:31 PM|| 2005-01-25 10:53:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Mike, your analysis is flawed. When I lived in Frankfurt during the first half of the '90s, there were fewer than 50,000 Jews living in all of Germany, including me. And yet some 25% of Germans admitted in surveys to hating the Jews (a significant and joyfully-acclaimed decrease from previous levels). I suggest to you that at that time not only did most Germans not know any Jews personally, but they also didn't know anyone who'd ever met a Jew. So where did the antisemitism come from?

Antisemitism, it is said, is the philosophy of the mentally impoverished. It explains everything in a most satisfying way, and as such needs no true facts or real persons to justify its existence. Certainly not the existence of real Jewish people! Else why would the Japanese, who as a group are neither Christian nor Muslim, who have never had any Jews living in their midst, and who have no dog in the Israel v. Palestine fight, be antisemitic?

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-25 11:57:17 PM|| 2005-01-25 11:57:17 PM|| Front Page Top

10:57 nostradamus
10:47 nostradamus
23:58 trailing wife
23:57 trailing wife
23:53 Alaska Paul
23:53 3dc
23:50 Alaska Paul
23:44 Alaska Paul
23:44 smn
23:34 Jame Retief
23:30 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:27 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:24 Sike Mylwester
23:24 Zhang Fei
23:22 Zhang Fei
23:18 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:18 Sobieky
23:17 Sobieky
23:16 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:09 badanov
22:57 Sobieky
22:53 Cat D12
22:49 Mike Sylwester
22:46 Mike Sylwester