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2004-11-22 Europe

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Posted by tipper 2004-11-22 9:57:51 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 churches call for more intensive dialogue between Islam and Christianity

Dialogue about what? Whether the jihadists prefer us to be immolated or gunned down?

There is no problem between "Islam and Christianity." There is however a jihadist terrorist threat to the nations of western Europe that, like any terrorist threat, needs to be ruthlessly suppressed. If Islamist leaders are not on board with this, then they need to be deported. End of story.

Posted by lex 2004-11-22 11:43:34 AM|| 2004-11-22 11:43:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 There is no problem between "Islam and Christianity." Sorry lex but I disagree. Terrorism is a just a manifestation of a much deeper problem. As the Dutch are finding out, tolerance has to be reciprocal in order for it to work. If not, the intolerant side merely abuses the other side's tolerance. Islam does not tolerate freedom of the individual and is therefore an existential threat to our society.

Posted by phil_b 2004-11-22 4:15:36 PM|| 2004-11-22 4:15:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Phil, of course there is a fascist tendency within Islam today but it's absolutely crucial to see this tendency clearly so that it can be crushed. "Islam" cannot be crushed because, fundamentally, we are not at war with "Islam." But we are indeed in a war to the finish with a fascist movement within Islam that, like the European and Japanese fascist movements before it, is first and foremost a death cult focused on slaughtering any who oppose it.

In WWII we didn't go to war against "Europe," we went to battle with fascists who had overrun it. Our success in destroying this European movement depended hugely on the help of Europeans themselves. Likewise, there is no way we can exterminate this new version of fascism without the help of millions of muslims. This isn't a matter of PC rhetoric but a hard strategic necessity.

Posted by lex 2004-11-22 4:30:11 PM|| 2004-11-22 4:30:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 lex, I'll assume fascism is your term for Islam's intolerance of personal choice. You seem to assume that 'fascism' can be removed from Islam leaving a benign version. I personally doubt this can be achieved in any relevant timeframe. That is, Islam will start to destroy Western societies before we can reform Islam. Dramatic as it may sound, Ivory Coasts in Europe may be the future we face.

Posted by phil_b 2004-11-22 5:14:41 PM|| 2004-11-22 5:14:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 For me fascism is not a subjective term but a specific modern political tendency that we've seen again and again. Fascism IMO has three main elements:

1) the death cult ("Viva El Muerte!", SS totenkorp, kamikazes, etc etc etc)

2) related closely to #1, the warrior cult and the glorification of violence as the highest form of human activity, including suicidal slaughter of thousands of innocents

3) glorification of the fascist clan and the supreme leader, and a rejection of any kind of particpation in normal, pluralistic politics. Due to this primitive clan approach to social life, there is no real interest in and no program for the economy, social arrangements, legal systems etc.

Treating this as a known political movement has enormous tactical advantages for us. We know what fascists are like and how they behave. We know how to deal with them, having crushed them decisively in the last century.

But I don't have a view on whether Islam or any religion is "benign." And frankly I don't have a clue as to how to treat muslims any more than I would know how to deal with amish or sikhs or Opus Dei Catholics. Our society tolerates all kinds of religious weirdness, some of it nasty in my book but not in others', but what really matters is whether the religious minority plays within the democratic process. That's why we need to shift this discussion to a purely political level. Defend democracy. Zero tolerance for fascism.

Posted by lex 2004-11-22 5:30:14 PM|| 2004-11-22 5:30:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 lex, RB is not the forum for a political theory debate. Suffice it to say, I don't agree with your def of fascism, or that fascism is a meaningfully definable entity, or it is the problem with Islam. If it helps, my position moreorless corresponds with The Open Society and Its Enemies (K Popper).

Regards

Posted by phil_b 2004-11-22 5:54:31 PM|| 2004-11-22 5:54:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 k, peace.

Posted by lex 2004-11-22 6:36:30 PM|| 2004-11-22 6:36:30 PM|| Front Page Top

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