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2004-08-17 Home Front: Culture Wars

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Posted by Steve 2004-08-17 1:15:48 PM|| || Front Page|| [9 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 ...because Islam must be covered under the Massachusetts curriculum frameworks for history.

I wonder if American history fits in somewhere in the curriculum framework and when they'll be running the workshops on it? Somehow, I doubt it.

Posted by tu3031 2004-08-17 1:44:03 PM|| 2004-08-17 1:44:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 First California and now Massachusetts.....The United States of Dhimmitude.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-08-17 1:45:19 PM|| 2004-08-17 1:45:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 I found the prophetofdoom.net site interesting.

From a 'letter to the reader':

Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone prophet, conceived his religion solely to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist. And if you think these conclusions are shocking, wait until you see the evidence.
The critics of this work will claim that Prophet of Doom is offensive, racist, hatemongering, intolerant, and unnecessarily violent. I agreeâbut I didnât write those parts. They came directly from Islamâs scriptures. If you donât like what Muhammad and Allah said, donât blame me. Iâm just the messenger.
Others will say that I cherry-picked the worst of Islam to render an unfair verdict. They will charge that I took the Islamic scriptures out of context to smear Muhammad and Allah. But none of that is true. Over the course of these pages, I quote from almost every surah in the Qurâanâmany are presented in their entirety. But more than that, I put each verse in the context of Muhammadâs life, quoting vociferously from the Sunnah as recorded by Bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, and TabariâIslamâs earliest and more trusted sources. I even arrange all of this material chronologically, from creation to terror.

Somehow I dont think this view is being taught at this 'workshop'.....

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-08-17 2:02:54 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:02:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 this is going to backfire on them. The bottom line is that they will stir interest in Islam. And they will open the door to teaching Christianity.

By all means, let's educate them. What does it matter if the chidren dress up in hijabs,play dodgeball with little stones, and draw a colorful prayer rug. In the battle of ideas, Islam can't compete.

It's kinda like when they tried to put women into men's baseball. They ended up disproving the very theory they hoped to prove.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 2:08:03 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:08:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 B the problem is.... they simply won't teach Christianity -- PERIOD. Not even the historical siginificants of it.

The ACLU would be all over them -- it'll be a shark feeding frenzy!

That is except for the 'And then the Murdering Crusaders invaded the peaceloving muslim lands and raped all the men, women, children, furry-bunny-rabbits, and baby ducks!'.... kind of crap as dictated by the ACLU and NEA (Teachers union).....

That is how my teachers covered the Crusades during the '70s. I'm sure it got worse since then....

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-08-17 2:15:10 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:15:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Heloooooooo Frank, Bulldog, R2D2, C3PO , Jamon, David and the gang...Welcome to an evening of entertainment and only in the esteemed paper of Great Britain...The Rantburg. Please...only use the Queen's English in your discourse. I missed you all but I have to say that I don't have much time these days. As you know, giving "one liners" is not my style but I'm afraid my replies will have to be shorter this time. The teacher workshop on Islam is a great idea because there is so much misinformation about our religion, Islam. Such workshops will help us see that we are all brothers and sisters in humanity.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-17 2:15:33 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:15:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Such workshops will help us see that we are all brothers and sisters in humanity.

So, they're going to lie?

Posted by BH 2004-08-17 2:17:57 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:17:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Such workshops will help us see that we are all brothers and sisters in humanity.

Excellent idea. I'm sure the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia won't mind me jetting over and teaching the Catholic faith to my fellow brothers and sisters in humanity.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 2:19:03 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:19:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I missed you all but I have to say that I don't have much time these days.

It's tough when you're bowing east 5 times a day kissing a rug, isn't it? Really cuts into one's productivity levels.

Posted by Raj 2004-08-17 2:20:46 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:20:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 And I'd like to take this time to thank those fine public servants of mine in the Massachusetts Legislature for helping to waste even more of my tax dollars as a misguided sop to political correctness.

Posted by Raj 2004-08-17 2:23:11 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:23:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Read anything by Bernard Lewis or Daniel Pipes. Robert Spencer too, for that matter.

Posted by Chris W. 2004-08-17 2:27:54 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:27:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Hi! Please keep calm. "Dreadnot" that is not a good idea. I mean, can I teach Islam in the Vatican? That would not be appropriate. Certain places are exclusive, like clubs. You need to become a member to gain entry. Think of it that way. And please...keep it cool.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-17 2:29:03 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:29:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Crazy Fool...each time the ACLU allows the teaching of Islam, they set a precedent for allowing educational units for other religions. Each time the Muslims get on our TV's and school boards and demands that they can teach Islam the ban on teaching Christianity weakens in the public's mind. We should thank the Islamics for opening this door for us.

And I have to agree with Salahuddin. We should teach these things. To do so is to break down the barriers. There is nothing wrong with allowing children to study Islam. Just like there is nothing wrong with allowing them to learn about their Christian Heritage.

The best way to combat Islam is to educate our children. The best way to get them interested in the topic is to have them draw some pretty pictures and want to find out more about the Arabian Knights. It's not a battle that Islam can win.

Please, if they want to open this door...let them!

Posted by B 2004-08-17 2:30:56 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:30:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Final word on this belongs to Ann Coulter:

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity

Posted by BH 2004-08-17 2:31:10 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:31:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "The Genesis and Genius of Islam"?? Give me a break. I guess the 7th century is everything its cracked up to be.
To waste tax $ on this is truly disgraceful.
I learned on 9/11 that Islam wants me to convert or die and to destroy the American way of life. Somehow I doubt thats how the "class" will be taught.
The left really does want to give this country away.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-08-17 2:34:57 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:34:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Final word on this belongs to Ann Coulter: We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity

Works for me. When do we get started?

Posted by badanov 2004-08-17 2:35:57 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-08-17 2:35:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Well...I have to disagree with all of you. The more I have learned about Islam, the more I have become impressed with Christianity.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 2:38:04 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:38:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 So, you are likening the entire country of Saudi Arabia to the Vatican?

Okay, then, how about Morocco then? Last time I was there I didn't see any cathedrals. I would like to teach Catholicism in the Maghreb. My brothers and sisters in humanity need me.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 2:39:59 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:39:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Last time I was there I didn't see any cathedrals.

It's all part of the learning process. The more you learn, the more you know!

Posted by B 2004-08-17 2:42:13 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:42:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 My guess would be the moment people find out Islam forbids all alchohol, even wine, all bets are off.

Jihadis will be sent packing to the deserts of the middle east.

Posted by badanov 2004-08-17 2:42:40 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-08-17 2:42:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 badanov ...you got that right. The best thing you can do is expose it to them when they are little and then let them make their own choices.

Truth is the best disinfectant.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 2:43:58 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:43:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 B: There is right way and wrong way....mandates from the legislature that require a greater burden on the tax payer with no provision for consent is the WRONG way.
A lifetime ago my 9th grade Humanities class included a unit on religion covering the five major religions. We each then got to choose one and follow its tenets for a 24 hr period. No mandates, no propoganda.....a much more level approach. I agree, if we're gonna teach then we should teach. Cal and Mass are engaging in indoctrination.
Salahuddin: is "keep it cool" the Queen's English?

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-08-17 2:51:45 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:51:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Just a thought... what if a Christian extremist group somehow interpreted the Bible as telling them to wage a 'Jihad' type of war on America and started blowing people up. Would we then start teaching Christianity in schools as a peaceful, respectable religion?

Posted by 2% 2004-08-17 2:53:05 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:53:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 the esteemed paper of Great Britain...The Rantburg

Frank, Steve, say it aint so!

Posted by 2% 2004-08-17 2:56:31 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:56:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I agree with "B", my brother in humanity. We must have a discussion. Let's sit together, Muslims and Christians and do it. Believe me you will be surprised how much misinformation there is about Islam.

Posted by The Management at the Rantburg 2004-08-17 2:56:41 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:56:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I agree with "B", my brother in humanity. We must have a discussion. Let's sit together, Muslims and Christians and do it. Believe me you will be surprised how much misinformation there is about Islam.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-17 2:57:53 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:57:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 B,

I agree with your assertion that knowledge is the best course, but, many of us, if I may be presumptuous enough to speak for others, are dubious as to the prospects of a course funded by Arab governments giving a thorough airing of not only the tenets of Islam, but the consequences of those tenets (i.e., how does sharia affect a country's goverenance versus separation of church and state; how does the ban on charging interest affect a modern capitalist state).

If kids walk away from these courses thinking that Islam is just like Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, except Mohammed is their prophet versus Jesus, Moses or Buddha, then your thesis has been gutted.

A serious comparative religions class would be far more helpful, IMO.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 2:58:02 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:58:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 good point Rex. But I still think that we'd be wise to let the Islamists open the door to teaching about the world's religions in the schools.

Look, I'm not naive that they are dishing out propaganda. But no matter how much make up and perfume you spray on a corpse, it's still looks dead.

When your opponent can help you by helping himself, by all means, let him.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 3:01:14 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:01:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 yeah, Maryland, Great Britain....but we have off-shore servers in Malta and Diego Garcia

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-17 3:05:26 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:05:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Dreadnought, I agree with your point 100%. But I still think the best they can hope to do is put some blush on the corpse.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 3:10:22 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:10:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 The problem with teaching this crap in school is this: in order to get a passing grade in a class, you have to show that you have mastered the subject matter. You cannot teach religion in this manner without assuming some things to be true. Now if I take this class and decide that Islam is twenty pounds of pigsh*t in a ten-pound bag, and everything the teacher has said was a complete lie, I either have to parrot a bunch of crap in order to pass or tell the truth and fail the class.

Hmmm... say the words or pay a penalty. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Posted by BH 2004-08-17 3:10:36 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:10:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 True B. Explains why I was a virulent anti-communist by the 6th grade. My problem is I don't trust the Govt on this one. I think this is where the parents have to step up.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-08-17 3:14:06 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:14:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 A corpse. Simply the best word for a worldview that crushes everything and everyone it embraces.

Tell you what, B. Toss a critical reasoning course on to the front end of our Exploration into Islam class, and you've got something.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 3:24:58 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:24:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Believe me you will be surprised how much misinformation there is about Islam.

I don't think any of us would be surprised. I mean, we hear the misinformation all the time: "Islam means peace", "Islam is a peaceful religion", blah, blah, blah.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-17 3:27:24 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-08-17 3:27:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 let me give some personal background here. Way back before 9/11, I volunteered in elementary schools in a multi-ethnic environment.

At the elementary level, it really doesn't matter if they get the sugar-coated version. We did all kinds of multi-ethnic things and it was really cool. Day of the Dead parties, Thanksgiving, Rhamadan, Christmas (yes...we did!) Kwanza.... Cowboys and Indians... it was all good fun. I learned as much as they did..it was cool! Doing that allows us to take the things we like from other cultures and morph them as our own. We used to call it "the melting pot"..but that's frowned on these days.

Face it, if you were a little kid...you'd really dig it if they allowed you to make a jeweled sword and wrap a towel around your head. It's just about that deep.

No matter how they slice or dice it, Islam is 7th Century. It can't cut it in the Western world. That's why they are trying to wipe us off the planet. Education will only reinforce that knowledge, it won't change it.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 3:29:55 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:29:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Sal, as to our "discussion", we brothers in humanity? Can Liberalhawk come too? He'll bring the Matzoh...

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-17 3:30:26 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:30:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Great idea. Maybe the Mass. school system can raise the kids to be suicide bombers. That will resolve the problem of having terrorists sneak in the country. Whoever came up with this must be brilliant.

Posted by Ol_Dirty_American 2004-08-17 3:32:42 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:32:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Believe me you will be surprised how much misinformation there is about Islam.
Yes, most of it put out there by Muslims.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-08-17 3:34:06 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:34:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Fact is there are some people that get great comfort in being told what to do and having minimal freedom. Look at the old folks in Russia who pine for the Soviet Union. There is a sense of security in having someone else do everything. Islam provides that in bucketloads. Koran even tells them the proper way to wipe their buttocks.

The Koran inverts everything and plays this obvious weakness (among others) as as strength. The Koran fills a need and thus will always have some appeal to those that fear taking responsibliity for their own actions.

Posted by Yank 2004-08-17 3:35:13 PM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-08-17 3:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 i suggest Bernard Lewis on Islam.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 3:38:15 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:38:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit on Islam and blogs:

I'VE BEEN MEANING TO POST SOMETHING on this item by Bjorn Staerk about the growth of anti-Islam comments on a lot of blogs.

As I was posting shortly after September 11, there are lots of different flavors of Islam. It's actually playing into the hands of the Ladenites to assume that Wahhabi extremism represents the authentic face of Islam. Islam has many traditions, and Wahhabism is actually a fairly recent one, and it is rather more extreme than it is authentic.

That said, it would be useful if those more moderate Muslims would take a more aggressive role. Some are -- see, for example, the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism -- but we could use more of that, no doubt. But to the extent that these people encounter comments urging that Islam be "banned," they're likely to feel less, rather than more, motivated toward reasonableness.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 3:47:07 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:47:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Re: learning about islam - know yourself, know your enemy; in a hundred battles you will always be victorious

Posted by Spot 2004-08-17 3:54:34 PM|| 2004-08-17 3:54:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 LH,

How deep is the commitment of "moderate" Islamic theorists if they are more put off by inane blog comments than by nutballs like Bin Laden hijacking not only airlines but their religion?

Also, this notion that Wahhabism is not authentic Islam reminds me of some of the useless debates during the Cold War as to whether the Soviet Union was authentically "communist." All I knew was that I wasn't going to wait around for the Mensheviks or Trotskyites to make a comeback, so they were communist enough for my tastes. Ditto for the Wahhabis. By all means, encourage the Islamic world to reform itself, but that doesn't mean we take a break from analyzing, critiquing, debating and defending.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 4:08:01 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:08:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 so, dot com, is even glen reynolds a nuanced wimpy liberal?

I dont think hes saying that Bin Laden and comments in blogs and elsewhere are equal - he saying that Bin laden motivates the change, but blog comments dont help. there are also other factors that would motivate someone to not step forward, such as fear, peer pressure, etc.

And Reynolds is NOT saying Wahabism isnt a form of Islam. "more extreme than it is authentic" doesnt say its not at all authentic - it says its less authentic than it is extreme. And its not THE authentic face - its no more authentic than other forms, and arguably a lot less authentic.

I guess im being nuanced again. Of course its in defense of the writing of the premier conservative blogger on the net, so i guess its not just my liberalism in play.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 4:13:26 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:13:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 I think it's a bit hypocritical to take any negative comment regarding Islam and turn it into a blanket condemnation of all Islamics.

So...I guess I'll just make a little disclaimer that I will put at the bottom of every post.

Disclaimer:
Any negative comments I make towards muslims are generally meant for extremeists only, ie: those who have embraced the idea that I am an infidel worthy of death. I may also make negative comments of Muslims who blame all of their own problems on Jews or Westerners. This is not all Muslims, and any Muslim's who do not feel this way may feel excepted from my negative comments. Additionally, I sometimes make negative comments regarding Muslims who fail to speak up against Muslims who do wish to exterminate me. Muslims who do speak up, may feel exempted from my comments. And finally, I would like to exempt any Muslims who believe in equal rights for women, homosexuals, Jews and and "honor killings" may also be exempt.

When I make negative comments re: Muslim's I am not referring to those who do not embrace any of the above views. I am aware that there are many of them, and I wish them great success and happiness in our welcoming country.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 4:13:28 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:13:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 LH: The problem with Reynolds argument is that if they're less inclined or not inclined at all to be reasonble, then who cares? Makes for a target rich environment from my perspective. The onus is entiirely theirs. In the meantime we've got work to do and so do they. I suggest they get busy.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-08-17 4:14:12 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:14:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 b - he was linking to an article which talked about people commenting positively about a far right Norwegian party that wants to ban Islam. Most of the comments cited were from LGF, but by no means all.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 4:15:38 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:15:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 LH -- so I guess nasty comments about racists make it less likely for borderline racists to change their minds?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-17 4:17:34 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-08-17 4:17:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 I'll agree that the idea of banning Islam is absurd. But I don't think this shush, shushing when someone mentions the deranged, infidel-killing elephant in the room is productive.

If Christians were actively supporting the KKK at a state level, then we'd deserve the same types of comments.

I feel bad for peace-loving Muslims who are caught in the middle of this. But they need to speak up, just as whites needed to speak up against slavery or black racism. To fail to do so makes one complicit in the overall crime.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 4:24:32 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:24:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 oops..isn't productive

soo...I'm a crappy proof-reader. So fire me.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 4:26:23 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:26:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 RC - well if you think that all muslims are racists, and moderate muslims are borderline racists. I know how we would rip that kind of thinking apart if it was coming from the left.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 4:27:02 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:27:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 B - millions of christians supported things far worse than the KKK. I daresay that if any Jews in 1944 had called for the banning of Christianity, wed have been told that this discouraged the statements of some Christians, and would have been distinctly unhelpful. And that would have been correct.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-17 4:29:16 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:29:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Love the disclaimer in #45, B! Works for me.

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-17 4:36:20 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:36:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 LH..I think that was my point. Most Christians did not support the evil of the KKK, but failed or feared to act. So I guess you are agreeing with me???

thanks jules.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 4:39:56 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:39:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 snicker...I find it interesting LH, that you are so quick to say "millions of Christians did worse things" as you sit on your high white horse looking down upon Americans who complain of "millions of Muslims who wish to exterminate us". Shall we go back in Jewish history too?

Most people are good. But the failure or fear to speak out against those who are bad is also worthy of condemnation.

thanks for making my point.

Posted by B 2004-08-17 4:47:38 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:47:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 And millions of German Christians did not support the very pagan Nazi regime, but a visit by the Gestapo seemed to be an effective deterrent against "moderate" views.

Most Germans would probably argue that the Nazis did not represent "authentic" Germany. And a few forlorn Jews in Warsaw shaking their fists in frustration at Christian persecution would be unlikely to drive those opposed to Nazism into Hitler's arms. It took the combined willpower and blood of the Allied armies to end that particular brand of evil.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-17 4:49:42 PM|| 2004-08-17 4:49:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 It took the combined willpower and blood of the Allied armies to end that particular brand of evil.

Amen! That reminds me of a rant I've been wanting to get off my chest re: the fact that the left has become the Puritan right.

Sigh..I guess we all grow up and become our parents...

If the Puritan right can be faulted for their inability to acknowledge human nature in regards to sex, then why can't we fault the New Puritan Left for their inability to acknowledge human nature in regards to war.

The left spends endless hours mocking the right for their belief that we need only promote abstinence and...poof!...prostitution, teen sex, illegitimacy, and AIDS will all disappear. Yet the left seems unable to realize that simply being "for peace" will stop the horrors of war.

Don't get me started!

Posted by B 2004-08-17 5:02:34 PM|| 2004-08-17 5:02:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 As a Mass. resident and parent, I'm wondering how long before the Wicca/Pagan ADL gets their religions on the mandatory list. My kids already spend more time learning about the Salem witch trials than they do about the Continental Congress.

/rant

Posted by Xbalanke 2004-08-17 5:25:15 PM|| 2004-08-17 5:25:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 well if you think that all muslims are racists, and moderate muslims are borderline racists.

Ever hear of analogy, LH?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-17 6:43:42 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-08-17 6:43:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Of course its in defense of the writing of the premier conservative blogger on the net

Reynolds is a libertarian. There is a difference.

Posted by Pappy 2004-08-17 9:12:19 PM|| 2004-08-17 9:12:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 "...covers a variety of topics, from the founding of Islam, to the expansion and achievements, to how the religion changed."

Ok let's see:

Founded: by fraud
Expansion: by killing infidels
Achievements: by inventing ~~the~~ zero
How it changed: It did?

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-17 9:21:05 PM|| 2004-08-17 9:21:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Only religions founded in major oil producing nations should be considered for pedagogical dissemination in the great state of Massachussetts or elsewhere...
______________________________BorgRealist

Posted by borgboy2001 2004-08-17 9:21:25 PM|| 2004-08-17 9:21:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Only religions founded in major oil producing nations should be considered for pedagogical dissemination in the great state of Massachussetts or elsewhere...

Finally! Zoroastrianism gets the respect it deserves!

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-17 9:50:10 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-08-17 9:50:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 OK, this opens the door for lots of stuff - when cna I demand they teach Catholicism, since it had a far greater influnce, especially in Boston or any other city with lots of Italian and/or Irish immigrants.

Riddle me this: Why is this considered part of AMERICAN Culture?

And what is so "Genius" about Islam, given that societies to adopt it have remained frozen in midaeval time in terms of human rights and militiant theocrats?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-17 10:04:49 PM|| 2004-08-17 10:04:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 It is Islam's creed that makes it unique, "OldSpook". Our creed is, very briefly, that God is unique, there is nothing like Him. He is One of a Kind. You cannot imagine Him or make a picture of Him. He does not have a son or a father or a mother. He does not sleep. He does not rest. He does not need anything. He is totally Self-Sufficient. He is above the heavens, above His throne which He created. He is the First and the Last. Ofcourse He is the Creator, Who Creates from nothing. He is Merciful and Loving. He is Merciful even to those who don't believe in Him and hate Him. He is the Subtle and the Gentle. He forgives again and again. He is also the Just and He gets angry when His laws are broken but ofcourse His Anger is not like human anger. He will reward those who follow Him with heaven and punish those who disobey Him with hell, but if you ask Him to forgive you before you die, He will forgive you. He will forgive even those who had disobeyed Him, if only they would ask for His forgiveness. All His attributes are perfect. He has a Face, two Hands, two Eyes and two Feet but, ofcourse, they are not at all like ours. You cannot picture them or imagine them and you must never do that because His attributes are unique and there is nothing in creation like them. He is above the seven heavens, above His footstool and above HIs throne...He is above all His creation and He never comes down to earth. The entire universe in His Hand is like a mustard seed in your hand! This is just a fraction of the information about God (Allah in our language) from our creed. Do you now see why Islam wins more hearts than any other religion?

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-18 1:33:09 PM|| 2004-08-18 1:33:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 He's ... also just a figment of your imagination, Salahuddin. Deal with it. Don't bore the rest of us with your inherited delusions.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-18 1:37:18 PM|| 2004-08-18 1:37:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Hi! Now you all can witness the mercy of God. "Bulldog" calls God a "figment of my imagination," an "inherited delusion". He says God's unique attributes will bore readers. Don't you see "Bulldog" that God allowed you to write the above? Don't you see how Merciful He is to you? He could have easily stamped you out of existence for what you said about Him. Then you would have been worth less than a squashed dung beetle. But He lets you live. He gives you another chance to repent. And he will keep giving you chance after chance until your time period on earth has expired. Then it will be too late to repent. You will be dragged into hell and fry in there forever. Your skin will be the thickness of mountains so you can keep on suffering excruciating pain. You fool! Wake up! Don't take a chance. You can't afford it...fool!

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 8:34:58 AM|| 2004-08-19 8:34:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#68 Is the wife out of plaster yet?

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-19 8:37:04 AM|| 2004-08-19 8:37:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#69 Allan's will, huh, Sal? Does he will Islam to lose every friggin' battle with the Infidel evil Joooos? Guess so

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-19 8:48:37 AM|| 2004-08-19 8:48:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#70 Hi! "Frank", you are right. God wills us to loose every battle with the Jews because we our disobeying Him. God is Just. Once we get our act together, obey the Islam laws and submit to God...watch the fireworks! "Howard", my wife got very, very angry when she found out I was chating with you all on the internet. It cost us a lot of money. So I am writing from somewhere else. That is why I can't write a lot. But you all know how I love to give long and thorough replies. Take care.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 9:02:53 AM|| 2004-08-19 9:02:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#71 Don't take crap like that from a woman - shouldn't she be cleaning behind the fridge rather than observing your internet habits? BEAT her!

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-19 9:05:37 AM|| 2004-08-19 9:05:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#72 I used to be hooked on drugs now I am hooked on Allan, hmmm M`OK.

Posted by Trolling for Allan 2004-08-19 9:06:16 AM|| 2004-08-19 9:06:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#73 Hi! I will definately NOT beat my wife, "Howard". In fact, we share the duties in our home and I was the one who actually cleaned underneath and behind the fridge last time! Look at the way you are talking about women-shame on you. And weren't you the one who said Islam treats women badly? A woman is not the property of a man as you believe in your culture. My wife kept her last (family) name and did not change it to mine as they do in pagan custom (Roman, where a woman was considered the property of a man-you have inherited that custom, Howard). (No personal offense to any pagan or Astra person). Islam does not persecute any peoples-but it disagrees with customs which are not monotheistic. But Islam believes in freedom of all religions. Let everyone talk about their religion and then let the people choose which is the true religion. Let the people decide. That is the American way! And that's what Islam wants. And as our Holy book the Quran says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." There should be absolutely NO pressure on you.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 10:31:06 AM|| 2004-08-19 10:31:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#74 Quit lying, "Salahuddin". What happens when someone decides they're no longer a Muslim, hmmm? Why do so many former Muslims leave their homelands and change their names?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-19 10:34:47 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-08-19 10:34:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#75 Go tell it to the Saudis - (work on your irony detection as well!)

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-19 10:36:05 AM|| 2004-08-19 10:36:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#76 Hi! "Howard", as a Muslim I try my best to avoid irony or sarcasm. I try to write in a straight forward manner. That is why I don't have much practice detecting ironic and sarcastic people! "Robert", becoming Muslim is not like becoming a Christian or a Jew. To become a Muslim you must testify that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is His messenger. You must think very carefully before you make this statement as it entails huge responsibilities. It is a verbal contract between you and God. Once you realize the tremendous responsibilities it entails (example-that you must pray five times a day for the rest of your life), then you say it. We don't advise anyone to say the testimony until he fully understands what
it entails. "There is no compulsion in religion"...Quran. But once one says it, there is no going back. The punishment is death. Islam is no joke and neither are heaven or hell...eternal pleasure or eternal torture. And "Why do so many Muslims leave their homeland and change their names?" I didn't. I lived in America for 25 years and migrated to a Muslim country and I didn't change my name. Unfortunately, we have the best car but some of the worst drivers.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 1:02:40 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:02:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 Who's the "fool", Salahuddin? Do you think if you'd been born Hindu you'd be banging on about Allah now? No, you'd be banging on about Holy Cows. Your dear religion is simply a superstition you were born into. You're the fool because you bought the scam without any evidence whatsoever and consequently your life will be a wasted series of devotions to a non-existent divinity.

Try to prove to us your Allah exists. Gentle tried but gave up pretty quick. Maybe she's having doubts about the Big Con now. If you had an ouce of critical thinking ability in your head, you would too.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-19 1:12:38 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:12:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 PS I know a whole bunch of younger generation Westernised 'Muslims' who don't buy the con either. They're biding time while their parents are alive before skipping the mosque altogether and enjoying a more rewarding life with real "tremendous responsibilities" that don't involve being a slave to a book, and the guys who shout the loudest on Fridays.

Your mind-virus Islam hasn't got long to live.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-19 1:19:27 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:19:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Hi! "Bulldog"...You know very well Who you will think of when you are in a life and death situation. You know very well Who you will think of when your airplane encounters heavy turbulence. Fools like you have to get shaken up to acknowledge God. Intelligent people don't need a calamity. They believe in Him from all the evidences around Him. Stop being a stubborn fool and listen to your heart. In Islam the word for disbeliever is "Kaafir," or "one who covers (what is in his/her heart." Don't take this personally, just be honest with yourself.

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 1:32:57 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:32:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 You're the fool, Salahuddin. You bought the con. You fell for the 'Islam is the truth' lie a long time ago and even at your mature age have never thought to question the wisdom of it. Why can't you bring yourself to answer any of my questions and address my challenges? You lack the answers. Just admit it, and stop being evasive.

Who you will think of when your airplane encounters heavy turbulence.

Last time that happened I didn't think of any god. Keep your superstitions and new age "listen to your heart" nonsense to yourself, OK? I'm not interested.

Address my points, or don't bother posting again. Thanks.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-19 1:43:18 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:43:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Bulldog, I think this covers these endless belated Salahuddin posts...

Posted by .com 2004-08-19 1:47:10 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:47:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 LOL!

BTW, thanks for th ZoneAlarm link you posted a couple of days ago, .com. It's installed on my machine and seems to be doing sterling service. I had no idea I was being probed so frequently just sat innocently using the computer.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-19 1:51:57 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:51:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 BD - Cool! Yeah, the assholse are out there - and the weird thing is that they want, for some inexplicable reason, to get in here! Fug'em, I say!

Posted by .com 2004-08-19 1:57:41 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:57:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-17 2:15:33 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:15:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-18 1:33:09 PM|| 2004-08-18 1:33:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 8:34:58 AM|| 2004-08-19 8:34:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#87 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 9:02:53 AM|| 2004-08-19 9:02:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#88 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 10:31:06 AM|| 2004-08-19 10:31:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#89 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 1:02:40 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:02:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-19 1:32:57 PM|| 2004-08-19 1:32:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Salahuddin 2004-08-17 2:29:03 PM|| 2004-08-17 2:29:03 PM|| Front Page Top

19:46 Emarati
13:57 .com
13:51 Bulldog
13:47 .com
13:43 Bulldog
13:32 Salahuddin
13:19 Bulldog
13:12 Bulldog
13:02 Salahuddin
10:36 Howard UK
10:34 Robert Crawford
10:31 Salahuddin
09:06 Trolling for Allan
09:05 Howard UK
09:02 Salahuddin
08:48 Frank G
08:37 Howard UK
08:34 Salahuddin
04:26 GreatestJeneration
02:36 Anonymous6110
14:35 danking70
14:27 True German Ally
14:26 Anonymous6104
13:37 Bulldog