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2004-08-03 Europe
Britain celebrates rocks Gibraltar boat
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Posted by Steve White 2004-08-03 12:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 So what's the magic number. Do the Brits get to keep it after 300 years or is Spain going to accept as equally valid Muslim claims to most of the Iberian peninsula that are just about as old? Right.
Posted by Don 2004-08-03 8:09:44 AM||   2004-08-03 8:09:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Two words: Ceuta & Melilla. Are the Spaniards intent on returning their colonies? Nope. Neither are we.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-03 8:13:15 AM||   2004-08-03 8:13:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I've heard that the Spanish POV on this is that Ceuta & Melilla are "integral" parts of Spanish territory, while Gibraltar simply has "dependency" status with its residents not being able to vote in UK elections.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-08-03 9:03:55 AM||   2004-08-03 9:03:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Oh, in that case hand it back then. Frrrp. Not a great difference really.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-03 9:20:34 AM||   2004-08-03 9:20:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 My own view on this is in favour of either making it a true part of UK, or of Spain, or giving it independence, depending on what the people in it themselves want.

But I don't much care for these halfway "dependency" solutions, where a country governs over people that have no say on that country's government.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-08-03 9:33:24 AM||   2004-08-03 9:33:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I think the votes of 500 million Indians would have skewed our domestic election results somewhat - therefore not a practicable part of empire building. The Gibraltarians held a referendum on joint sovereignty in 2002 and voted 99% against. I think the Spaniards rather seem to want to have their cake and eat it.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-03 9:46:08 AM||   2004-08-03 9:46:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 HMS Tireless? What a stupid name! How many subs have tires?
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-03 9:46:24 AM||   2004-08-03 9:46:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 This is simple. do we stand by our stalwart ally of over a century or do we hop in bed with a coward whose combat endurance is measured in hours?
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-08-03 11:27:15 AM||   2004-08-03 11:27:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The Brits should keep it, force the Spanish to appease them. Step on them just as Al Queda has done.
Posted by yank  2004-08-03 12:18:35 PM|| [politicaljunky.blogspot.com]  2004-08-03 12:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 But I don't much care for these halfway "dependency" solutions, where a country governs over people that have no say on that country's government.

One name springs to the forefront: Puerto Rico. And yeah, I'm all for cutting it loose, too.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-03 12:29:35 PM||   2004-08-03 12:29:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Mr. Davis, I think you have the answer to your rhetorical quesiton from the the US State Department:

"the US State Department had instructed the US Navy to withdraw the ship under protests from Spain"
Posted by Carl in N.H. 2004-08-03 12:37:58 PM||   2004-08-03 12:37:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Light off a few fireworks. That should get Zappy running to the French border.

As for Puerto Rico, how about Americans voting in a referendum forcing Puerto Rican independence? Better yet, since the Spanish seem intent on territorial expansion and PR doesn't want independence, why not pawn PR back to Spain?
Posted by ed 2004-08-03 12:39:44 PM||   2004-08-03 12:39:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 But I don't much care for these halfway "dependency" solutions, where a country governs over people that have no say on that country's government.

Kinda like... Cyprus?
Posted by Raj  2004-08-03 1:07:08 PM||   2004-08-03 1:07:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 That was cold, Raj.
Posted by Steve  2004-08-03 1:11:15 PM||   2004-08-03 1:11:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 That should get Zappy running to the French border.

...into the arms of waiting Basques???
Posted by Rafael 2004-08-03 1:57:05 PM||   2004-08-03 1:57:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 But accurate, Steve. :-p
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-08-03 2:38:18 PM||   2004-08-03 2:38:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 The Moroccans and Spanish had a tiff a couple of years ago, I believe, over some rock a few hundred meters off Moroccan coast. Powell had to step in. Spanish army left, but not before letting off a few smoke bombs so as not to allow photographers the opportunity to shoot Spaniards bringing down Spanish flag. So, Aris, Moroccans don't care what's dependent or integral in Spanish eyes. Ceuta(Sebta) and Melilla(Mellilia) are just as Moroccan as Gib is Spanish, forget about nuance, complexity, and other UN/diplo- speak. You can bet that if the Spanish flag ever flies over Gib., then hundreds of thousands of Moroccan civilians will swarm into C and M. Just check out what Moroccans did in '70's re Sahara. It was called the Green March. All trucks were mobilized to take folks to old border and they walked in and Spain caved.
Posted by Michael  2004-08-03 4:21:42 PM||   2004-08-03 4:21:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Ceuta(Sebta) and Melilla(Mellilia) are just as Moroccan as Gib is Spanish, forget about nuance, complexity, and other UN/diplo- speak

Don't forget the result of the vote though.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-03 5:49:08 PM||   2004-08-03 5:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Steve, Raj> Uh, cold about what? If there was a stab in there, I didn't get it. Is this about the junta of the colonels trying to overthrow the Cypriot government 30 years ago? Is it about something else?

Explain it to me, and then perhaps I'll get offended -- but more probably because of your ignorance than of anything else.

Bomb-a-rama> for Puerto Rico, how about Americans voting in a referendum forcing Puerto Rican independence?

From what I've heard I think Puerto Rico would be more likely to accept statehood than independence, if it was forced to choose one way or another.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-08-03 5:58:45 PM||   2004-08-03 5:58:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm with Steve--we should have backed up the Brits here!
Control of the Mediterranean has never been more important and what is our problem to worry about hurting Spain's feelings?
They didn't give a damn about ours when it came to Zappy pulling those troops out of Iraq!
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-08-03 6:03:16 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-08-03 6:03:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 The Spanish lost their way after 3-11 and the Iraq cave-in. Let the Brits hold onto Gib. Someone has to keep at least one half of the "Pillars of Hercules" approach to the Med safe.
Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-03 6:11:32 PM||   2004-08-03 6:11:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Aris,

Every so many years the Independent P.R. group forces through a referendum. The electorate divides fairly evenly into thirds: 1/3 for independence, 1/3 for the 51st U.S. state, 1/3 to continue the status quo. We in the US would very much like to regularize the situation one way or the other, but the Puerto Ricans haven't yet figured out what they want.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-03 6:18:56 PM||   2004-08-03 6:18:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 trailing wife> This: http://www.gymnasium.garching.de/projekt/intel/puertorico/options.htm
and this: http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa031698.htm
and this: http://gbgm-umc.org/country_profiles/country_history.cfm?Id=125

all suggest that the pro-independence movement in Puerto Rico is actually quite small, 5% of the population or less. The only truly popular options are either statehood or continuation of the status quo -- and if continuation of the status quo was taken off the table I'm pretty confident that the Puerto Ricans would vote for statehood -- pretty much *all* of the pro-status quo folk would have to vote "independence" for the alternative to happen.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-08-03 6:57:28 PM||   2004-08-03 6:57:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Ah, but do the 50 states want Puerto Rico?
And it would throw off the design of the stars on our flag!
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-08-03 10:57:46 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-08-03 10:57:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I would welcome either vote - I'd just like them to shoulder responsibility as well as gains... Roosevelt Roads and Viecques still piss me off. The demagogueing was atrocious and done by those who didn't understand W can make ya pay for stabbing friends (France didn't catch that, apparently). TS assholes
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-03 11:14:52 PM||   2004-08-03 11:14:52 PM|| Front Page Top

09:23 peggy
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